Should Horus Have Been the Warmaster? (Sanguinius, Guilliman, El'Johnson) | Warhammer 40,000
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Sly marbo the war master- destroyer of worlds- champion of the emperor- his words to the emperor when he was appointed: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
Vulkan for warmaster for the heart of the emperor he carried
Horus as the left hand man for his intelect
Sanguinius as the right hand man for his valor.
Rogal dorn for the Left foot for the stability it would have brought
Lemann Russ as the right foot for all the ass kicking that needed to be done.
What if the Emperor was left-handed?
are we trying to summon exodia here?
So the real question is does the emperor masturbate with Sanguinius or Horus giving that most people are right handed I'm going to say Sanguinius.
Agreed Vulcan for Warmaster, he cares more for humanity than any other primearch
WITH YOUR POWERS COMBINED... I AM THE EMPEROOOOOR *[cheese action '80 cartoon song starts]
After rereading the first three HH books recently, I realised that pretty much everything that happens can be traced back to two specific incidents: The Humiliation of Monarchia, and the purging of the two lost Legions and their Primarchs. The first is well-recognised and discussed, but reading through the early books again, so many of the decisions made by Horus and others boil down to "I can't afford to accept the possibility of myself and my sons being systematically erased by MY OWN FATHER". Even the whole part where the demon shows Horus the future with the statues of the Primarchs and himself missing, it's presented as an issue of pride, but the underlying terror is "they erased me, just like my siblings". In the light of that, it's doubly impressive that Sanguinius holds on to his loyalty.
Remeber magnus came and told him not to belive the lies. Horus expressed his free will knowing what he was doing and his reason was i quote " If anyone deserves to be worshiped as a God it's me". It was his own vanity that brought the betrayal and he only did it because he thought he was using the choas gods for thier demons
This is a great video! This is the sort of conversation we have at the GW shop.
First, what should a warmaster be? He is NOT a surrogate emperor. He is a leader of war while the Emperor was indisposed.
I have nothing negative to say about Vulkan, Guilliman, or Sanguinius. I love them all and appreciate their advantages and virtues. Dorn has many virtues, but is limited by his severity and adherence to convention. Horus proved himself a mistake.
Russ will get his own focus section.
The Lion was made to be a regent for the Emperor. Other legions fear and respect the Lion and the 1st Legion.
Are they loved? No, but you do not love your warmaster, you have a healthy fear and respect for the monarch. You salute the rank, this works fine as long as long as the man holding the rank doesn't completely fail.
Horus completely failed because he wasn't willing to sacrifice himself for his father's plans and Imperium.
The Lion is different, he was willing to sacrifice himself, his legion, his homeworld if that was what was necessary for the Emperor and the Imperium. This was evident when he sailed into Ultramar to deal with Guilliman. He presumed that he would have to put down Roboute. As above the level of normal astartes as the 1st legion is, half of the 1st legion against all of the Ultramarines in the core of the 500 worlds would still be self sacrifice.
In the Rangdan Xenocide, it was the Lion and the 1st that were called to end the threat to the existence of the Imperium, not Horus, not Dorn. The Lion consistently put his knights at the heart of battle in order to smash the Xenos threat and end their invasion and existence, since this was a migration as much as an invasion.
Russ was used there in order to deal with the wayward primarchs, the Lion was there to end the threat.
According to the numbers and references, the 1st was the largest legion before the Xenocide and, even after their massive casualties from stopping an apocalyptic event, were just 2nd under the Ultramarine numbers.
As you accurately stated, the Lion was not vulnerable to corruption by chaos, he was wary of it from his first days.
The Lion was also smarter than most other primarchs. This is not simply in terms of tactics and strategy, where he was plainly above the water line in the view of his brothers and Malkador. The Lion tricked Khyros into divulging that the Emperor yet lives and duped him with a ploy of swordplay. Russ was impressed by his tactics as is evident in Leman Russ the Great Wolf and in Wolf King, Russ remarks how the Dark Angels were one of the best legions in terms of void combat.
The Lion figured out that the Emperor had not yet fallen during Angels of Caliban after his banter with Konrad.
Magnus states that the Lion has "the heart of a scholar", which is high praise from the Crimson King.
It is also important to focus in on his fight with Fateweaver. Fateweaver says that the Lion has "stunted ambition", this is a euphemism for "not being able to tempt him with power or offerings". This is a weakness that most other primarchs suffer from. Magnus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Perturabo, Lorgar, Angron, Alpharius/Omegon, all obviously are vulnerable to being "offered" something.
This is why Russ is so important a figure to understanding the Lion. Russ was NOT vulnerable to "offers". He knew that of the Lion as well. Russ was ENTIRELY loyal, utterly martial, and willing to do what others would not for victory. Russ recognized that with the Lion, there was something entirely different but entirely reflecting what he valued.
Russ himself states in Leman Russ the Great Wolf that the Lion beat him in a fight. He points out how the 1st was the model of what all legions should be as viewed from Terra. He acknowledges the Lion's strategy and tactics and the story shows how even Russ' tactics are embarrassed by the Lion's.
Also, Russ puts an end to the tired trope that, "Russ and the Lion didn't get along". Russ respected the Lion immensely. He wore sack cloth and ash in mourning when he heard of the Lion's defeat. The Lion sent Russ a gift of wine from the vinyards of Caliban. When the Lion stabbed him on Terra after the Battle of Terra, Russ said that it drained all of the bad blood between them. This is reinforced by the wine and mourning bit.
Russ also muses about how he wonders if Malkador put the two of them together on this campaign in order to arrange their dealing with one another. I think this likely. Whereas Guilliman's idea of the loyal primarchs included others, Malkador it seemed trusted that Russ and Jonson needed to reconcile with each other before the worst. . . which they did.
Long story short, you don't have to like the warmaster, simply respect him. Horus was chosen out of affection, which was a mistake. Horus would only have followed one primarch, the Lord of the First. Russ would have followed the Lion. Guilliman would have followed the Lion. Mortarion would have respected the Lion's strength. Sanguinius appreciated his reason and direction. Magnus thought highly of him. Dorn would have followed out of duty. Don't forget that the Night Haunter felt a kinship with the lion as mentioned when they spoke on Tsagualsa.
The Lion had closer, quiet connections with more people than we give him credit for. He had friends in the Imperial Palace which Russ and others did not.
The warmaster should have been the Lion, and he may yet be the warmaster or a regent for the Emperor. The Lion was born to wear the mantle of command. He is utterly loyal, has an understanding of good and evil, a sharp mind for analysis (even on the fly), and is second to nobody in terms of tactics, combat, and strategy.
Let Roboute be the logistician and builder. Let Russ protect what the Emperor has created, as the Emperor told him his job was. The Lion will command in the stead of the Emperor until his return with complete subordination to the will of his father and without personal ego. It is what he does.
damn, that was quite the read.
@@RustyARMPIT12, I hope that means good.
Dem my eyes are teary after reading all this, I'm a fan of the lion after all. Indeed you are right, The Lion would have been the best Warmaster because of his unwavering loyalty to big E and the imperium of mankind.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’
@@witchetta4903, your last quote said it all.
8 months on and this is the best reasoning as to who should have been Warmaster I've ever come across.
Bit bloody good mate and this is coming from a Salamander.
I don't think there should have been one singular warmaster. Part of the issue was that the Warmaster was nominally raised to a level that only the emperor had ever been a part of. By raising one brother above them all It exacerbated the friction between them all. If the emperor had chopped up the crusade into three chunks and appointed three warmasters, it would have been a tacit admission that no one could be an equal to the emperor in any capacity. And the jealousy would have been less because it would have been clear that it was a burden that no one primarch could shoulder on their own.
Guillaman could have been free to take over the policing of the empire proper nipping problems on planets that had already been conquered. Sanguinius could have hopped from major trouble spot to trouble spot to be the emperors wrath on major threats, like ork empires or major xeno incursion. And horus could have led the Crusade proper to conquer new planets.
So basically a Primarch Triumvirate? Horus to conquer new territory, Robute to build and maintain it, and Sanguinius to glue it all together by being the Imperium's voice of reason and conscience, reminding everyone of their duty to the Emperor. Makes the most sense, really.
I agree, it should have been like with how the Emperor created the Lords of Terra, a group of people set to govern individual parts of the Imperium, directly under the Emperor's control.
Remember guys the Emperor is still a man.
The greatest among men but still a man.
He also had many things going on at the time the human webway, the war against the chaos gods and the friction with the current mechanicus.
Indeed. Not to mention if he brought some of the more wanting Primarchs with him back to Terra to use their skills in completing the Golden Throne and the Imperial Webway he was working on, it would've reduced the numbers of them turning traitor. Perturabo, Ferrus and Magnus come to mind as the best candidates for this project, given their skills with technology, and Magnus being the most powerful Psyker among his brothers.
Even if the Horus Heresy broke out later on, Big-E wouldn't need to be hunkered down at Terra since Magnus would be right by his side, and Horus would lose out in having Perturabo among his fold as well, whom practically became his right hand man among the Traitor Primarchs. And having Peturabo help Big-E with the mechanical aspects of the Webway Project would be far too tempting for him to turn traitor over, as he always wanted to prove himself and viewed himself as the most loyal of the Emperor's sons. And if he was directly recruited to help with the Imperial Webway, that would be a even greater honor to him that he'd probably forget about not gaining the chance to rebuild the Imperial Palace.
Bullshit, you cant have 5 people who are in charge!
To understand the Lion's character you need to really look at his childhood. He spent a large portion of his time as a child alone in the wilds of a death world that was corrupted by Chaos. He learned to be a predator first and foremost and to understand on a very basic level the threat that is Chaos.
This leads to his greatest flaw as a leader, which is his inability to understand human emotion and character. I do believe at one point in one of the books it talk about how even members of his own legion are a riddle to him. This is shown most dramatically in his dealing with Luther.
Still in terms of being a Warmaster I believe he would have been the best choice as it was more of a military position then diplomat. Also he was probably best of the 3 mentioned to deal with the threats and temptation of Chaos.
Well said!
He rules but does not desire to be the ruler. The systems conquered for his father are done so because it is exactly what his father wants, not because of some misplaced animas against the people or ruler.
The Lion has trouble relating because it is the same trouble that the musical, scientific, military, and philosophical geniuses have understanding those with a more limited perspective.
I agree with you. Lion would be better warmaster.
Would have been best would have done anything to get the outcome needed
In the Russ Primarch novel is is stated that the Lion is able to navigate and do well in dealings with the council of Terra. So he's not completely unable to deal with people if he can deal with Malcador and his council members.
Loyalty is its own reward
I don't see Sanguinius falling to chaos when his best friend begged him to join chaos and turn traitor Sanguinius turned him down
Agreed! :D
@Brianw2261 I know how Horus fell to Chaos all I'm saying is even if the ruinous powers offer a cure for the red thirst I just don't see Sanguinius falling to Chaos
@Brianw2261 Khorne doesnt lie he is by my estimation the most honest of the gods. He hates tricks which is why he hates pykers so why would he trick you. He is a ball of anger and rage but he is not a liar.
Indeed, khorne is also about honor and truth. He never lie
Gabriel Lopez ehm yes Khorne can lie, somethings he has a flash of strategic cunning. In general he doesn’t, but sometimes there are exceptions
Horus himself whilst dying admitted Sanguinius should have been Warmaster, Roboute Gulliman believed Sanguinius to be the best choice for Emperor Regent and Lorgar said Sanguinius was the greatest fighter of all primarchs, 3 primarchs back Sanguinius one of them being the warmaster himself before he turned to chaos. Sanguinius doesn't lack a back bone for when things need doing he loved his legion and had to kill them when the lost themselves to the Red Thirst Horus even witnessed it, so no he could do what was required if the situation was called upon. He was obviously the best choice for Warmaster and the best choice for Emperor Regent if he returns.
Problem is that Sanguinius doubted his own abilities as Warmaster, he privately stated to Horus after Ullanor that he was greatful that the title wasn't given to him. Self-doubt was the very emotion that the chaos gods exploited to turn Horus
Guilliman lowkey is the Karl Franz of 40k. Perfect blend of statesman and warrior.
Glam *SUMMON THE ELECTOR COUNTS*
@Sanguinius yes indeed yes indeed
@@SpookyMarine Dont forget Vlad the dad who was an elector count at one point.
Booooo! That is the tongue of a servant of Tzeentch speaking!
Guilliman was being controlled by Tzeentch, change my mind!
All I have to say is the codex astartes ruined everything the emperor worked to build.
Honestly I agree that Horus was probably the best choice, but maybe just having a warmaster at all was kind of a bad idea - maybe having the primarchs form a council would have taken the pressure off Horus a little and allowed other's strengths to come through. The primarchs are all such huge personalities that trying to get one person to lead them all is a recipe for disaster.
At the end of the day though the Emperor should have known better than to just bounce out of the entire situation, or at least without sitting the boys down and just telling them about stuff like Chaos and the webway so they knew what was going on and how best to avoid breaking the entire Imperium while dad was away on his business trip.
The Emperor needs to fuck up for the story to progress. It's just quite stupid how he fcked up.
Two people can't build a wall. You need clear unchallenged leadership. Councils get bogged down with everyone's opinion.
General Patton is quoted as saying 'a good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan next week'
So in my opinion i like the idea of one warmaster. Although if you read the book Leading from the Edge, I feel you reach the conclusion that everyone being lead must also be a leader and contribute to the collective even as subordinates.
A lot of the issue here seems to be that everyone wasnt mature enough to submit to anyone to get anything done effectively unless coerced.
I kinda agree but I think the emperor rushed leaving the crusade, possibly because their was a future he couldn't see and wanted to complete the web way project to prevent it. He should have gradually handed the responsibility down...... Or make the fabulous hawk boy warmaster 😆
Largely the Warmaster didn't really seem like a necessary position because for the most part the Legions acted completely independently of each other.
The Emperor chose him because he was amazing. But he also knew all the faults of his sons and who would stay loyal to the end. I think he chose him because if the power went to his head and he revolted he didn't choose his most powerful son
The Primarchs of the Imperium Secundus do seem a perfect unity, complementing eachothers failures. Sanguinius the soul and the heart, Guilliman the brains and the Lion the Weapon. The Lion works as a warmaster for Secundus because the nature of the smaller pact means that his personality doesn't factor as much, as original Warmaster would have been a disaster, he cannot read the simplest of motives and needs of people.
I actually really like Guilliman more since reading Know no Fear. He's actually not as stoic and rigid as the Codex Astartes would make you believe, Dorn is actually the starch arse. I also love him for preparing his legion for the possibility of an end to war. But he was simply too disliked by his fellows to be Warmaster.
Forget about Warmaster, Sanguinius should be Emperor. His compassion allows him to see the motives and needs of his brothers. His self reflection would guard his soul and purpose.
PS. How did Dorn underestimate Horus so much at Istvan. He KNOWS Horus controlled the board before Istvan and should have considered Horus's position before commiting forces.
This is my view on how Dorn "underestimated" Horus. Dorn sent seven legions and most of his fleet too Istvaan V. That is almost eight legions of astartes and seven Primarchs. Against four Primarchs and four legions, that had already sufferd losses when they had too purge the loyal elements of their legions. And Dorn was aware of the purge since survivors of the traitor legions managed to escape.
And if you are gonna ask why Dorn didnt suspect more traitors.n Perturabo had been nothing but loyal as had Alpharius Omegon, Lorgar literally worshipped the Emperor. As for Konrad he was declared a traitor more or less for going around and putting down rebellions by basically slaughtering whole planets so why not throw him at some other traitors.
You have too remember that Dorn was at terra and had been for some years he didnt know what had happened to the other legions in fact the Word Beaerers hadnt even attempted to convert the Imperial Fists to chaos as far as i remember.
@@tobiashaglund8896 So in short he thinks Horus would be so dumb to openly rebel with 4 legions while there is a great number of legions nearby (the position of which he previously controlled) that can smash his rebellion in its infancy.
@@AzureShadow88 so in short is The Lion for outplaying Horus and capturing the giant siege canons but then giving them to perturabo is also guilty of this? And The Lion also thought that the forces going to Istvaan V was enough given that he didnt send any of his own legion
Funny thing is Guilliman did not want his space marines to follow his codex as law, he wanted them to use it as a guide. If I remember correctly he even admitted that Horus was best suited for the War Master position. I think most of the Primarchs agreed with the choice or at least they didn't raise hell about it aside from a few.
Horus didnt really convince anyone to join him.
But first, I wanted to say I really enjoyed this. There are problems with your logic at times and sometimes you contradict your earlier points but most of it made sense, but more to the point it was just a really fun exercise.
I tried using your logic but it led me to a different conclusion, instead of Horus being most suitable it seems like, in fact, none were suitable. All were equally as bad just for different reasons including Horus. I don't think Horus was as liked as u think, alot of his brothers hated him for being picked and as for winning them over to Chaos, it's said that Angron only joined because it gave him the chance to turn against the Emperor as did Curze. Fulgrim only joined because he was already corrupted, he loved big E to much otherwise so chaos would have to corrupt him when Horus asked if not before, either way it wasn't Horus that convinced him. Similar thing with Lorgar, his chastisment by the emperor made the cracks for chaos to creep in. Alpharius and Omegon join because they thought it was best for the galaxy as a whole dew to the meddling of the Cabal. Ext...Ext... As I said, really, Horus didn't convince any of the Primarchs. He may of thought he did, but really it was other things that led them to artificially follow him. Most followed their own agenda even after joining him, others he lost complete control of because he never had control in the 1st place.
I found depending on what logic I used, it led to different conclusions. However it was a really fun thought experiment, which I think was your aim by the sounds of it, thanks for the content.
I know this is two years in the past but yes, Horus did convince them to join him.
First off Mortarion, while he did hate the Emperor, he at least partially betrayed out of loyalty to Horus and I very much doubt he would have betrayed had someone else tried to convince him.
Fulgrim was corrupted but even still I'm not sure he would have accepted had another primarch asked him to join the heresy. At very least it would have taken him longer to join the heresy had Horus not been the arch-traitor.
Khan almost betrayed and its quite possible Horus would have been able to convince him to betray had Omegon not disobeyed Horus' orders by opening fire on Khan.
While Perturabo didn't like Horus it was still Horus who played on his insecurities and guilt in order to convince him to join. Had it been another primarch who wasn't as good of a diplomat as Horus he probably wouldn't have joined.
Angron disliked Horus but he respected him, I doubt he would have put himself under the command of many other primarchs beyond Horus. Angron probably wouldn't have taken part in the dropsite massacre.
Alpharius was close to Horus and it seemed like Omegon wanted to go back to being loyalist so had they been up against Horus it might have been enough to convince them to come back to the loyalists before the siege of Terra.
So Mortarion and Perturabo, who were by far the most useful of the traitor primarchs, were convinced to betray by Horus and other primarchs probably wouldn't have been able to convince them. Maybe Perturabo would have been convinced to betray but I doubt Mortarion would have. Angron and Fulgrim would have at very least taken longer to join the heresy. Alpharius may have gone back to being loyalist after initially betraying, or alternatively a bit of a civil war could go on within the Alpha legion. Also the without Horus the mechanicum probs wouldn't have been swayed. The heresy would fall apart long before the siege on terra had any other primarch save for Sanguinius taken up Horus' position as arch traitor.
Great video! I just wanted to add one thing about Guilliman. He says at some point that it never mattered wether he wanted to be the Warmaster instead of Horus. And he looks down a bit on those of his brothers that rages because they wanted to be the Warmaster, like Ferrus Manus for example. Guilliman says it doesn't matter, it's just a waste of time and energy because the choice was only ever between Horus and the Lion. I can't remember where exactly I read it but it made me like Guilliman more because it shows that he is very level headed, and sees the bigger picture. Especially compared to a lot of his brothers.
Sanguinious would have been my first choice, Lion El Johnson was tested and passed the temptations of chaos, willing to do what it takes to get the job done. Horus lupical then Reboote Gilliamon.
Sanguinius was the best second option as he sought counsel with Horus, Guilliman, Dorn, Magnus and the Lion all the time plus he has the best idea of how humanity feels which most his brothers except Vulkan lacked. Plus seeing into the future, knowing how psychic powers worked, and proving he was not corrupt able one 3 occasion during the Heresy even to his best friend Horus
To be Honest, The Emperor had Never Should Give the Title Warmaster to anyone of them , Since he had a Visions that Some of Primarh Will Betrayed Him, Instead he Could Make War Council under the Ever Vigilante Eye of Mallcador,and we all know that Primarhs have a great Fear of Him And Respect , and Second He did Loved His Son's,He Protect I Think Alfarius or Omegon I can't remember ,so he can't be Cidnaped again,and He Give a Horus a Book,and He Saved some of them,ofc after 10.000 year's Stuck on the Golden Trone,you will Change, Don't you ? 😎 !!!!.
DARTH BANE
I dont think they feared or respected him all that much. Lorgar literally back handed him like an anime character. Called him a maggot. Guillamen didn't even care that it was happening.
DARTH BANE
The Emperor is evil.
The way he treated Angron, the way he treated Lorgar, the way he treated the second and eleventh Primarchs, Curze always knew the truth.
His only motivation is subjugation.
#RememberMonarchia
:)
The Lion all day!! one of my favorite Horus Heresy quotes by him "Loyalty is it's own reward."
I respectfully disageee with you on how you characterized Guilliman. Yes, he is an excellent administrator, logistician, and organizer. However that doesn't mean he is not one of the Emperor's avenging sons who brings the Emperor's might to smite the Imperium's enemies.
Guilliman has shown on repeated occasions the ability to lead from the front and inspire those around him in battle. Is he the equal or Sanguinius or Angron in martial skill? Definitely not but the wielder of the Sword of the Emperor who has personally defeated Greater Daemons and Traitor Primarchs in single combat and single handedly led the greatest crusade the Imperium has ever seen since The Great Crusade is far from just an organizer as you seem to characterize him. Just because he is the best at ruling and administrating does not make him a below average leader warrior.
You are right to point out the Ultramarines' Roman influences so think of Guilliman like a Caesar or better yet a Cinncinatus of the Imperium. He is the total package: warrior, leader, tactician, organizer, historian, logistician, politician, dictator, and above all a champion of what the Imperium of Man should and can be. I do agree he would NOT have made a good Warmaster though due to him being austere and unlikeable but man you're not giving Bobby G enough credit for his other qualities. They are just subtle and not "sexy" like Sanguinius or other Primarchs.
@@christiandauz3742 I would agree. As for the smurfs I can't see them falling though. It's a bit like "chaos.exe does not compute" for them i believe.
Votes for sexiest Primarch?
@@ts25679 Without question Fulgrim right?
@@pwnerdowner Before or after he got all Slaaneshie?
@@ts25679 Definitely after
sanguinius and guilliman had great charisma and leadership abilities, but lacked the ruthlessness to do whatever was needed no matter the cost, while the lion excelled in tactics and warfare., and was ruthless enough to do anything to reach his goals, but lacked the charisma, leadership and empathy to read and trust people as the others.
horus had all those traits, unluckily he had not the same uncorruptible loyalty the other three had.
Horus was insecure and didn't like the pressure of being the warmaster.
RG I feel is the most like the Emperor. He can play the long game. He can command and inspire the realm of men to greatness. Besides Leman Russ I feel RG is the most Human
Hey! I didn’t know that you had this one in the works- what a kickass surprise! Great video, as always- I love the sense of humor that you toss in there, as it gives a bit of levity to some heavy ideas. Before I read any of the HH novels, I was always just about the loyalists- and even though I’ll be a Corax devotee forever, I really liked Horus as a character once I read the first book. Even though I knew exactly what was coming, I kept thinking “maybe we’re wrong about Horus- he seems like such a great, likeable dude!” And he was so interesting- always thinking about every little nuance of how things appeared to others, and manipulating everything and everyone to get a desired result. It made him perfect as Warmaster, and exceptionally dangerous as an enemy, which is of course why you’d want him as YOUR Warmaster! Anyway- thanks for another great episode- I’m always happy to see that a new video from you has just been released. Keep up the great work- this video makes a great start to the new year! See you soon-
so glad to hear it man! :D and i agree with you.. you really felt the tragedy of Horus' fall at the end of the initial trilogy, it was very heartfelt and less of "HA HA! CHAOS HAS WON!" you were really rooting for him in that book.
this is an idea that i had evolved from simply being about Lion as the Warmaster, but I wanted to explore a few more options, so I'm glad you dug the direction i took with it :D
All I heard was Turin Mullet and Italian Friar Tuck...great video as always and I'll keep supporting any way I can!
I think Guilliman is the best choice, after everyone thought the emperor was dead, he was the only one to get his head together and got moving. He was so feared by Horus that he sent his as far away as he physically could.
I actually really like guilliman as I think he is the most relatable.
Love the video btw! ")
For a major factor of rule of an empire and being beyond a doubt a tactical genius, i would say Guilliman for sure.
I get the all around love for Johnson, but he is no ruler nor overall "known" to the other Legions, in fact he cares little about others than his legion and don't see eye to eye with anyone.
Sanguinius is the beacon of light and the Imperiums hope.
This is the Horus Heresy / Pre-Horus heresy - aka Great Crusader, therefor Guilliman makes perfect sense as the general and ruler of his fathers armies.
Even in 40k … It make sense that Guilliman was the first to return, he was right there in front of anyone! A Bloody holy shrine of one of the Emperor's sons.
The Ultramarine hatred is just a bit off and its only because of the 40k poster boi's theme.
The Ultramarines are great politicians, commoners that inspire for more / they make their own luck/furtune and therefor many can become Ultramarines, Officers goes through history, art and strategy in warfare and also in the more civilization construction of Worlds.
While you also see the officers or higher ranked legionaries becoming Lords and loremasters of Worlds in order to maintain the vision of the Emperor.
Guilliman wanted to preserve the Imperium in the Horus Heresy, hence why he wanted Sanguinius to become the leader of the loyalist, the greatest among them all.
With Guilliman favored quote "I can win any given war if i had but 1 of the the dauntless few along side my legion".
Sanguinius would had been my favored for sure, but Guilliman is the commander / statesmen that makes more than common sense why he should had been Warmaster, if history was changed.
I kind of feel like Sanguinius was the type of guy where if he had been war master, and fell to chaos that the other primarchs would have been like "shit...maybe WE are the bad guys"
Hahah reminds me of that meme from the British comedy sketch: i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/028/165/ccvzrbwha9tx.jpg
Perturabo would have been a possible choice. On the outside he could've managed the Great Crusade to peak efficiency. Great vid. More 40k stuff.
Wasn't he basically Horus' second in command too?
@@ethanfox8979 Once the Heresy kicked off. Yeah. He basically had to manage the war effort and made sure all their brothers were in line.
i dont agree with this he was always horus' little bitch
Perturabo would have been an effective leader in a strange way. He'd have just ignored every ones god damned feelings and personalities driven them on to conquer over and over again until the legions themselves were basically driven into the ground with exhaustion, attrition, and over extended supply lines. I think the primary issue is this would have left the empire pushed too thin to defend its far flung borders at that point actually. On the flip side a rebel faction would be too isolated to collude with like minded chapters and could have been easily nipped in the bud.
Basically an effective leader because he was such a terrible person in terms of interpersonal dealings. I don't even think "what are we to do after the great crusade" would even cross his mind, as it did with Horus.
@@ethanfox8979 Yeah, as the Heresy goes on, Mortarion and Perturabo are basically the only two Primarchs he could count on. When Horus tells Mortarion to confront Khan and the White Scars, he basically laments to him that apart from Perturabo (who Horus says would have uselessly wasted his men throwing them at elusive Space Mongolians), Horus had no one he could rely on. Fulgrim vanished to his Pleasure Planet after his ascension to demonhood, Angron was broken from the get-go and even more so after his ascension, Konrad Kurze was bat shit insane and MIA in the Imperium Secundus, Lorgar was more interested in serving the Chaos gods than overthrowing the Emperor and was subverting his position as the Chosen of the Gods, and then there's Alpharius...
Honestly, even though Horus lost the Heresy, the fact that he got as far as he did considering the handful of broken, unstable, and otherwise treacherous allies he had to make do with is a testament to his skill as warmaster.
The heresy is strong in your title..
The heresy is strong in my mutant blood!
Lion FTW
too selfish, he couldnt even keep luther in line. you might aswel suggest kurze haha
I have, i dont deny his loyalty but lacks the ability to inspire his peers only the people beneath him. Lol
As a huge fan of the Dark Angels, Lion El'Johnson would be my first pick of all the Primarchs, but really, it should have been Guilliman. I think the fact that he had experience building a stable empire and desired to create a society that would outlive the violence of the Great Crusade make him the perfect person to execute the Great Crusade. And that the rest of the legions would look to the Ultramarines as a paragon of what Space Marines should be post-Heresy says a lot about the work both on and off the battlefield that Guilliman accomplished. And now he's Warmaster anyways, so guess he won the long game on that one!
As another Lion lover, I have to say the Lion's biggest flaw would be that he wouldn't bring unity in the Primarch. He isn't a people person.
Now, Guilliman is certainly not someone to be underestimated. But I think you hit the nail on he head. Guilliman is the Empire builder, he wanted to make something great beyond the Great Crusade. I think this is why he shouldn't be the Warmaster. The Warmaster is exactly what the title says, wholy focused on war. The general that leads the Imperium.
That said, I read a comment detailing perhaps the greatest Primarch leadership. Consisting of a council of Roboute Guilliman, Sanguinius, and the Lion. Guilliman would remain back, make and solidify the Imperium. Doing what he does best, building an Empire. The Lion would be the weapon, the warbringer, leading vast armies to conquer new territory for the Imperium. Then Sanguinius, he would be the glue that keeps it all together.
@@prageon6035 The council you speak of did exist in the lore. It was known as imperium secundus. It was great on paper but Konrad Curze managed to throw dissent between the primarchs (primarily Roboute and the lion). Eventually they realised that Terra was not lost (as they had thought) and they went their separate ways. I won't go into details here (mostly because I'm not terribly knowledgable about it) but there are books about it.
kikimetter oh right true! Completelg forgot Imperium Secundus
I used to play Dark Angels so I've always liked Johnson (all Chaos theories aside) but the reality was he didn't see Luther's betrayal and couldn't even end him on his own, I think in a universe where you do need to be ruthless at times that Johnson could have made the difficult calls. He wasn't the most creative guy. To your points on Russ though, he might have actually made sense she he so badly wanted to destroy all enemies. If each Legion had its own commander and no one *real* unifier outside of everyone following Russ "Cause Dad said so" the heresy might not have been as bad. A somewhat unpopular leader is better than a super popular one because generally that makes them next in line for the throne.
I love your primarch videos
Sparty I understand if you’ve been busy but please continue your Primarch series! They’re good enough that they made me get into 30k.
Sanguinius cometh! :D
@@italianspartacus DUDE. SO pumped. Sanguinius is the brother I wish I had. (lol)
Kurze and sanguinius are my favorite two primarchs too! And ur right they are so different yet they have similarities like being able to see possible futures. They have very different reactions to that as well.
As much as I would love for Ferrus Manus to be the war master I agree that Horus was probably the best choice at that moment. Though I do also agree that the title should have had the responsibility split up with other titles and primarchs
Please keep making 40/30k lore. you are bar none the best youtuber doing it. I thoroughly enjoy all your lore videos.
If it wasn't for so much bias and hate for Guilliman, this video would be actually be better...
i think the imperium secundus way of things is better, the role of warmaster probably had too much responsibility on it, guilliman should have been in charge of the logistical and bureaucratic job and the lion as the main millatery leader with another primarchs as a figurehead or binder like sanguinius or horus, even though there both dead
The Lion is a fucking beast. Guy literally told Chaos to suck balls and faced zero temptation, hunted the Night Haunter and defeated him, defeated a calibanite lion (a freaking chaos daemon) as a unarmed child, never defeated in battle one on one or in all out war, one of the few Primarchs I'd say with zero augmentation could defeat a daemon Primarch. Yeah, my favorite.
Johnson sees that Guilliman is busying himself setting up secundus..."awe fuck...even guilliman has fallen to the chaos!!!"
😂😂😂
Well, Bobby G is war master now soooo...
Abaddon is the one true Warmaster! Blood for the blood god!
@@ordoabchao6747 Abbadon is the biggest fail since Horus (ironically)
Cheezitchar123 that is Lord Regent to you XD
#NotMyWarMaster jk Bobby G is a BEAST.
You mean FailAbaddon the Disappointment
Russ for Warmaster hunts and feasts all day every day!
It would have never have happened because almost nobody liked him/them but Alpharius Omegon, from a purely military leader standpoint, could have been a great Warmaster. He/they understood each legions strengths and uses and would have been able to adapt them together better then probably anyone. Plus he/they're unbiased and able to analyze situations with near complete objectivity, always having the larger picture in mind. And they understood how administration and human society works (usually to bring it down, but the reverse could have also applied if he/they'd wanted). Otherwise yeah my vote goes to Sanguinius as the best balance. The perfect division would have been put Horus in charge of all military matters and Guilleman in charge of all logistical/administrative duties.
All I have so far from this is gulliman is the man and there no reason for him not to be the man ULTRAMARINIIIIIII
17:33
Freeze the image.
The Astartes on the far left, with his arms crossed, must be Faufnyr Bludbrodyr. The pack leader sent to watch over Bobby G. Very cool to see the Vlka Fenryka.
100%.. And arguably one of the best parts of that book hahaha
@@italianspartacus i like how they beat up on Conrad kurze and he flys out a window hahaha
The Emperor would have been better off saying 'Each of you must help lead the crusade in my absense. I will send your seconds details of the sectors I need you to be responsible for. The rest I leave you to lead in my stead.' and as such the issue of a warmaster is side stepped.
and thus starts the same issue that Charlemagne had with his sons and his paladins after he died!
Excellent Video! Would love to see more 40k/30k stuff! Your video highlights something about the Primarchs. Each one has a purpose. It would be cool to see that aspect explored.
the funniest thought about the 30k univers of warhammer is more like what when the emporer never scold Logar for beeing to slow and devotional towards the emporer and spread that he is godlike. that was acctually the one thing what brought up the civilwar and the fall of horus
Horus had the outward charisma, Sangunious even spoke of his own short comings, (cept speaking on his curses), in conversation Horus. This may sound strange Horus was lead with learning from the Emperor & being the more human of the Primarchs which I think was his weakness to the corruption.
The only reason why I can't say Lion would've made a bad choice for a warmaster (Also, I'm a huge fan of the Lion, the Dark Angels are my favorite legion), mostly cause of one thing he did, during a battle for a planet, he set one of his chapters (a terra born chapter of dark angels) to set up a position away from the enemy lines, which was Orks, the chapter master was well, upset cause they would be too far away to intercept the advancing horde that was going for a nearby Hive City, in defiance of his orders, cause again, Lion ordered him not to engage, the CM relocated his entire chapter to defend the hive, and almost lost all of them, the Orks where too many, it took the Lion's direct involvement to save the day, and costed a lot of marines.
Later on, the CM once again, engaged Lion about his strategy, that it was reckless, then, Lion, calm as only he can be, explained that he meant for the Orks to sack the hive, and he was gonna use it as a trap to wipe the horde off the planet, but the CM's little stun, costed the overall campaign forces that Lion had intended for other scenarios.
Basically, Lion was gonna sacrifice a few billion mortals, to save 1000 Marines, his logic was sound, he could use said marines to end the war quicker and save many more lives, but, it showed a flaw in him that would make him a horrible warmaster, to him, people are only numbers, if he has to sacrifice 2 worlds to save 10, he'll do it, if that's the optimal strategy, which you can imagine how that would work against let's say, tyranids, or necrons.
Bottom line, he would be a great warmaster in the combat side, but he would be willing to go in some cases, too far, in the name of victory.
1:18 these two looks they from some 80s metal band with that hair!
Should have been Johnson
He was literally a master of warfare
Roboute Guilliman is very pragmatic. His UltraMarines by extension are very contingency oriented.
I think Sanguinius would make a great warmaster, though admittedly he isn't very good to make an empire, that task could simply be left for Guilleman, the tas warmaster have is only to conquer more world and expand the empire, and in that field of expertise he is more than capable to do so. Also the fact he is one of the most beloved and respected by most of his brother and all can surely help him a lot in this task
Each Primarch was created with more than one role in mind, their role was as a general but they also had additional roles for the time when the crusade was completed. Horus was always meant to be the Warmaster - the over-general of the imperium, while Guilliman was to be the chief of the administratum, The Lion was to be the Imperiums keeper of secrets, Alpharius to be the spymaster etc. Horus though was never meant to be the Emperor's heir, that role was to be Sanguinius's because as a figurehead no one could match him short of the Emperor himself.
It was the ultramarines not the dark angels who brought in more worlds into imperial compliance and were on par with the Luna wolves, however the ultramarines left planets with a functioning government so you could say they were the most successful legion
Wow, never realized all the marines except for Ultramarines and Blood Angels, look SALTY AF in that picture.. 16:28
I never understood why Guillerman wasn't chosen before Horus but I think I've become jaded after reading so much about his fall from the emperors light.. I remember the early Hersey books where Horus Lupercal and his mournville where the brightest lights in the great crusade.. when I think about it there wasn't really anyone to rival Horus at that time.. I also thought it was interesting how in master of mankind the Astartes, chaos or loyal were not trusted even to the extent of the custodes admonishing Dorn and the fists with little comeback?? The loyal primarchs and legionaries knew there World would never be the same come victory or defeat!! So if not Horus then who??? Vulcan maybe- unstable
Corax - damaged
Dorn robute sanguinius?? Couldn't unite the legions so HIS choice of Lupercal was the only one !!!!
I’d say blood angels for all around warrior and artisans are Greco influenced and ultra marines are more romanic impart due to the ability of state building
Honestly, it should have been Lion El Jonson. In terms of military strategy he said to be equal to if not slightly superior than Horus and is said to be just as good as a duelist. Given the close working relationship they had in the Imperium Secundus, Sanguinius and Guiliman would definitely stay on as his left and right hands. Sanguinius would be his way of communication with the other Primarchs, as almost all of the other Primarchs seemed to befriend and trust Sanguinius while Bobby G would be perfect as a link of communication with the general Imperium as he is known for being a skilled politician as well as a capable commander in his own right
I'm gonna go completely out of the box here and say that Magnus (had certain trials etc gone differently) would have been a good warmaster. He was very loyal and inspired loyalty, he was loved by his legion and was in good stead with most other primarchs. He was knowledgeable in the psychic arts obviously but also in the art of war. Yes I know the emperor had different plans for him but I think he could have sat upon that golden throne as gate keeper and warmaster!! He's also my favourite Primarch so there's absolutely no bias on my part at all swear it.
Ayyy mad respect for another Konrad Kurze Fan!!!!
The Emperor should have grouped the Primarchs into threes or four geoups so they can complement, support, and keep each other in check. It also keeps one person from shouldering the burden of leading the Great Crusade. Anything they can't agree on goes to appeal to the Emperor.
Nobody could be warmaster effectively but I think Roboute might have been the most suitable strategic decision maker guiding the crusade because ultimately the role of warmaster was more flawed then any of the candidates.
The crusade was not akin to a world war where there were few defined enemies that had to be defeated, it was a wide ranging campaign whose logistical constraints would have been more challenging then any of the fighting now that all the primarchs and their legions were assembled. It fought against dozens if not hundreds or even thousands of localized threats and foes that were varied beyond anything dealt with in our more earthly campaigns. To imagine that the crusade needed a leader that 'led from the front' or was a strategic mastermind to stab at the heart of the enemy, the enemy would be orcs with a few dozen worlds at most or elves with less, any of the primarchs should have been well past capable of handling such tasks and those that weren't capable should probably have been detained. A primarch obsessed with building pretty things would be well suited to organizing the logistics behind such an endevor and setting out strategic objectives without defining how the campaign would take place or even who the various legions would fight to gain it.
I'm not even much of a fan of Roboute or the Ultras myself but given the tag line about professionals and logistics and that ultimately there was little tactically or operationally challenging about the crusade having the top level command focused on maintaining and expanding logistics capacity would be best. Also letting the various primarchs do their own thing for a bit should quickly reveal who were truly awful and had to be put down and who could, with guidance from the big E, manage their interests.
The reason it should have gone to the Lion is the same reasons you laid out. Because the Lion was all about prosecuting war, he didn't have the 'Grand Charisma' of some of these other people. I mean you take a look at the fight between him and the wolf, wile the wolf was talking boasting he went in there and killed the guy. After their fight and wolf started laughing at the situation the lion punched him out. Why, because its a waste of time. The position of Warmaster shouldn't have been turned into the great honour it was. However because of who got it and their doubts that is why it became a problem.
Would it have been a problem for the lion, no. He wouldn't be leading a rebellion he would just be like I am doing my job, people may think his a dick, but if there was going to be heresy afoot it would have never had the same impact.
I know some people might suggest Dorn, however Dorn had a pretty up and down relationship with all of his brothers. Guilliman and Dorn had a rough relationship and particularly Perturabo hated Dorn. And Dorn didn’t get along with the mangled legions of the World Eater, Nightlords and Deathguard. Quite simply he didn’t get along with the other legions. He honestly fits in a role between Sanguinius and Guilliman. He is a symbol of the imperium and a Statesman who leads on the front lines but also fortify’s. I think he could of been a good choice but his relationship with the other Legions was way too rocky. And he suffers from a lesser degree of what Sanguinius has and that is he is so perfect that you hate him for it.
According to the Malcador novella the emperor always planned for them to rebel
Was just earlier than he had wanted
What?! That's intense. I didn't know about that
Hmm like father like son. Two generations of Guilliman seem to have had the love of the people and the resentment of there peers.
A son of Sanguinius, Chapter Master of the Mighty 9th. Dante is regarded as an equal by big papa smuff.
I think Sanguinius should have been the leader, maybe not as warmaster but as the head of a council of all primarchs, so they could cover his lack of tactical genious.
And I think that Fear to tread and devestation of baal, especialy the Knights of blood story line, shows that the blood angels are not that easy to be swayed to Chaos. Atleast after they became aware of the Flaw.
They didnt fall to chaos in fear to treat, they where just lost to the Thirst.
With Guiliman at their back and running things, delegating missions to brothers according to their strengths....
Alpharius for warmaster.
We are all Warmaster
It's Dorn. Dorn would be the best Warmaster
NO CONTEST!
He is adorable
@theoreticusheresy
Sorry, Dorn was great and all, but EVERYONE, including Russ, acknowledged that El'Johnson was *probably* the best *field commander*, but in his discussions with El'Johnson, he pointed out that the Warmaster needed to be more than a general; Guilliman and Sanguinius would always have been the better choice, because they were better able to manage the relationships between the other Primarchs.
Did @ChaptermasterValrak put you up to this?
To too honorable (stubborn) to turn traitor.
Ferrus Manus. The only Primarch to be able to beat all others according to Jaghatai, simply because he could take the most punishment and not succumb to his wounds. I'm also pretty sure the others basically didn't care much about him as he wasn't the talkative type.
Vulkan. The others may beat him 9 out of 10 times, but there will be a 10th time, because Vulkan lives.
I think the Lion would be the only other realistic War Master , however how much fun would it be if Konrad Curz the Night Haunter would have been named War Master, A legion would have refused a order they would have all been skinned alive. Salamanders would have burnt maiden worlds, Imperial Fist would created Hellraiser'ish fortifications around wayward cities! The grim dark possibilities are infinite!
I do honestly think that russ could be a suggestion after these three he's barbarian nature is a shield he uses to make people underestimate him
The Lion. He was the most loyal to the point of obsession.
This might be a bit late as its been a while since this was posted. I do want to point out that people believed 20 years ago Astelan when he said the Lion was waiting to see who won, which gav thorpe states was coming from a Fallen who wants others to Fall as well and was untrue. I believe this is the same with Nemeriel who said that the Lion did not understand people.....mind you this is while trying to get Zahariel to come to a "rebel" meeting. So that chaplains priorities where kinda questionable to begin with. And how he made it to be a chaplain.....who knows. In the Primarch Novel Leman Russ, the Wolf King stated that the Lion "Does so well in the courts of Terra". People give him crap about giving the ordinatus to Perturabo, but he didn't know Perturabo switched sides. Not knowing that it would make complete sense to give those engines to the Iron Warriors......you know the Siegebreakers Legion. Anyway that's my two cents. OH PS: Roboute Guilliman took it upon himself to establish Imperium Secundus, he was not charged with it and that is his sin.
safe to say guiliman has the last laugh lol ;)
I know I am responding 2 years later, but I just came across this video and such.
My theory I think when the Lion returns, he will be promoted to a position of, if not similar to, the Warmaster of the Imperium. G-Man to lead the Imperium, while the Lion expands it. Using two fronts for the benefit of Mankind.
He wasn't mentioned as a likely possibility, but Lord Adorable (Rogal Dorn) would probably have been as good a Warmaster, or better, as the three on this list
Horus failed the ultimate test though while Rubout Girlyman is guy who get sh*t done wither you like him or not, he inspires loyalty not by his presence but by improving peoples lives, he isn't the best choice for warmaster (although hes a tactical genius hes would be to busy with politics) but more the emporers hand if malcador didn't have that job
For me, It was The Lion that was suppose to be the Warmaster (originally), but the way he evolved on Caliban may have made him unsutible in the end... (And Luther)
The successor for the emporer or being the "Regnet" or secund in command for the emporer - A symbol for mankind = Sangunius...
Guilliman, the administrativ leader and a supporting role to the emporer and Sangunius.
Under this leadership, there should have been a Warmaster. And as I said... I think the Lion was meant to get that role...
Horus... Well horus are complex. But for me, he would have been even better as a secund in command, handling deplomacy and social aspects of it....
This is complex 😅
As much as I really don't like row boat he would fit really well into a lot of what the war masters role is BUT I think the important word in the role is WAR Master, horus was a war master in all but name until that point. In short I agree that it could have only really been horus, MAYBE dorn (the dorn heresy is a good fan project) but that would really be all in my mind
There is a great case that total Dorn should have been warmaster. And the blood Angels only get the red thirst after Horus kills him. It imprints on the gene seed the death throes of sanguinis
You completely missed on Corax with his multiple strengths as tactics, loyalty, battle rough, image or a liberator, and no open conflicts with other primarchs.
Ferrus Manus?
Horus wanted Fulgrim to bring Ferrus over to his side, "my plans rely on him being with us" Ferrus expresses doubt about being considered, and possibly regrets not stepping forward. Iron Hands were reputably used as the do-er of dirty jobs(along with some others). I'll admit charisma would be reduced.
From a Story point-of-view, it makes sense that Horus was chosen as warmaster. I think Khorne wanted Sang, but got Angron instead.
Sorry for delay, I'm watching this on 10th Jan.
Hes not lying I started with 40k at eleven, a year before you were allowed to play in an official capacity. I am now almost thirty three and people were hotly debating it back then. Of course a LOT of stuff has been changed and retconned since then but the Warmaster debate has never cooled.
Dorn, because logic over emotion. Especially with that power. Loyal. The Phalanx alone shows how good of a leader he was.
I genuinely think your 40k content is the best on TH-cam. Kirioth, Valrak and a few others are solid but you do it way better in my opinion.
thank you very much man! i watch all of those dudes as well ! :D Valrak has the 40k news on LOCKKKKKKKKK i should probably dip int othat, but shit i watch him for 40k reveals hahahah
@@italianspartacus Having just started 40k tabletop earlier last year (Space Wolves), I've dived in deeeeeep on the lore videos, tabletop tactics talk, Batreps (Winters SEO and Miniwargaming in particular), news and such involving GW and releases and all sorts of stuff. Your Primarch lore videos and the videos like this talking about Istvaan and just random speculation are a refreshing take on all of it and you do a good job of both being fun and interesting.
Also, BOI, gettin' them subscribers lol. I've been around since (I think) the first 5k. If not within the first 5 then definitely around it. You're doing good man.
The problem is The emperor doted over his first found son when he thought that was all there was but as he began to recover his other lost Primark's and see a chance to complete his grand plan that's when he started treating them like tools to accomplish specific goals and I don't think Horace ever got over that and blamed his brothers for the loss of connection with their father
I'm curious to see what would've happened if instead of creating a Warmaster position, the Emperor didn't bother and left the Imperium's military mostly decentralized. If he'd done that, no Primarch would've been able to muster several Legions' worth of strength without it being VERY obvious to everyone else.
Guilleman is like the Julius Caesar of Imperium. Great tactician, politician, statesmen, honourable and not well liked by others because he is too 'organized'. Aside from battle potential from each primarchs, Bobby G are the ones that does not charge mindlessly unless there is no other way. He is by far the most suitable candidate for Warmaster title. Relationship with other primarchs aren't necessary to execute orders as that title bears the Word of the Emperor.
Other than him, Sanguinius is of course my prime choice too because he is my favourite primarch. He is too beautiful and perfect in ways others felt nauseous being too close to him.. except maybe Fulgrim, another 'perfect' primarch.
But yes, this video 3 prime candidate for Warmaster is my kind of choices as well. Other primarchs besides this 3 are too weird, too dreadful or too much hate to lead others into battle.
Vulkan and Corax maybe?
I really enjoyed your warmaster breakdown. Thanks for sharing!
~Freak
Poor Rogal, will you get any love from this TH-camrs?
Roboute Guilliman is the GREATEST Primarch!
This reminds me of the Dornian Heresy, but that has a whole lot of shifted primarch growing up stories.
then again it came with an objective: flip the alliegance of every legion.
I think it's just Guilliman hands down. His results speak for themselves; under his leadership the Ultramarines grew to be by far the largest legion and the worlds under his rule became the absolute epitome of what the Emperor was trying to create with his Imperium. He might not be the most impressive warrior of the primarchs, but as a package deal for someone to lead in the place of the Emperor he seems the obvious choice.
Guilliman was only one able of sevant leadership - painting in broad strokes, keeping machine supplied and rolling, pointing bothers in directions suited for their strengths and mitigating conflicts.
What would the PERFECT HORUS be like??? Emperor 2.0? Starchild?
I think Lion actually would make the better warmaster. Remember, at this point of appointing a warmaster, the Emperor still lives, and he will live forever. Just because Lion has difficulty connecting with his brothers wouldn't really have an affect on whether they would fall in line or not, because the Emperor would still live and they do it in his name.
Horus was overall the best choice for the Warmaster. He was close to the Emperor. He was loved or at least respected by the Imperium and his brothers. His legion were the most prestigious. He even lead some of the other legions during their infancy or the commander during a campaign. Plus being skilled at knowing a person personal strengths & weakness helped too. Who else but Horus could've successfully calmed down ANGRON & Perturabo when Horus was declared Warmaster?
These three choices could've been a council of some type. Sanguinius as he was similar to Horus as he was among the best of the Primarchs. He inherited all of the Emperor's positive qualities. Sanguinius would've been the best public figure for the Imperium. Johnson would've been the sword that would slay all those who would threaten the Imperium. Guillaman would be as you stated the builder. The statesman. He would make sure that the Imperium on the whole was running as smoothly as possible.
Hey since you did who should be Warmaster. How about a video on who SHOULDN'T be the Warmaster? I know Angron & Konrad would be on the list but who else. Lorgar? Perturabo?
My favorite theory is that in the Horus Heresy, that when sanguinius fought Horus, he won. In the process losing himself to the red thirst, crippling and all but killing the emperor, before the big E had to put him down, unable to admit he killed Sanguinius and was bested in his original refusal to fight the red angel, credited it to Horus. I just could never understand how, even, chaos roided Horus, could kill Sanguinius THEN have the strength to drop kick the shit out of the Big E