Scott Snyder is a horror writer so yeah I can understand why he failed to land the whole comedic sociopathy aspect of Joker. Court of the Owls was his greatest contribution on my opinion.
You mentioned Arkham's Joker. One of my favourite bits of his was in Asylum. You hear these thugs talking, one says 'he asked me to kill my sister, I done it', then another guy says "yeah he asked me too, I kept trying to tell him I didn't have a sister but he kept asking, so I just ran down some random woman". That, to me feels like a great capture of the balance Joker should be. Oh and shout outs to Telltale Joker, underrated adaptation.
Shoutouts to John Doe for being a pretty normal guy, all things considered. He's just a lil quirky. I think Arkham Joker strikes the right balance of being a psychotic mastermind, and just legitimately funny with fun bits. Even when as he's minutes before dying he still cracks jokes. "Every decision you ever make ends with death and misery. People die, I stop you, you'll just break out and do it again" "Think of it as a running gag" He stabs Batman right as he says it, and it ironically makes him drop the cure by accident. It's almost poetic how his own antics led to his end.
@@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 I think it’s also interesting showing how Bruce’s choices affected the creation of the Joker in a more active way with John Doe. Taking the tragedy up , by making him someone who’s being haunted by the darker potential and Bruce’s actions are what leads him to become a vigilante or the clown Prince
@@BonnieFluff I think what makes it work is how he combines elements of TAS, the movies (Nicholson and Ledger) and the comics to make a new and innovative Joker. From design (appearance, the Joker has been given a make-up based Glasgow smile to make it look like he's always smiling. The medical roll as spats, etc) to personality. This felt like a perfect Joker from the comics that fits the gothic horror landscape of the Arkham games
Joker can be multiple things. He is a versatile character. Horror, grim cold and calculating or a comedian who commits crime and kills. There’s been multiple ways to do it
@@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 Even Art the clown, terrifier's primary antagonist is funny and has several moments of comedy that help enhance him as a character
@@Birds_In_Crime haven't watched those movies, only saw trailers since they seem to be the type of movie that makes you really uncomfortable real quick (not a fan of long scenes of gore and torture in excess)
@@michealmahmoud6391the thing that makes us sad is about popular media forjing peoples opinion, and Jonkler 2019 was a big success, kinda makes the people wanting for more tragic stories
Joker needs to be wrong again. They keep trying to ascend him and his cause to new levels but he's better when his statements, his causes are simply refuted. BTAS Joker has him stalking a fat little nobody that punishes him, not through violence but tricking him with a dummy bomb to bare his entire life's thesis to the world and how pathetic it is. He even gets a laugh out of Batman, something the Joker wants but can't get. Killing Joke, as pointed out, his one bad day for Gordon fails. The actual Arkham games end with Joker pathetically begging to never be forgotten as he indeed is getting locked away to be forgotten. Dark Knight, Heath Ledger talks about how, like him, everyone will just sacrifice each other, just to be told no by nobody giving into his games at the end. Joker is best when his beliefs lose.
1st off you can't determine what's 'wrong' & vice versa in its absolute form of truth. finally, what is the essence of the thematic process of Joker needing his beliefs or whatever you spewed to being false or as you put it wrong' - or have his beliefs 'lose'.
also, it's your 1st paragraph in conclusion a non-sequitur with the batman laughing but then you pointing out how it's something that Joker wants but can't get... huhuhuh???
@godzillafriction joker got Batman to laugh by being pathetically wrong, not by being funny like he wanted to. Are you dense or do you just pretend to be? Fancy words don’t mean jack if you can’t use em mate
Nah Cletus is a at least entertaining and 70s-90s Joker was distinct enough from him. The Modern Edgy juggalo though ? There is a reason editors are needed...
@@zillafire101 I remember seeing a fan fiction where joker started doing wacky schemes. And when asked why he said "I was starting to become another zsaz. And we don't need more than one of that guy."
I REALLY believe people misunderstood the killing joke. The idea of one bad day is fucking bullshit. And because of this misunderstanding, they decided to have joker be this horror movie styled extremist. It's almost ridiculous.
exactly. we all make choices, and to do evil is a choice, no matter the circumstances. The Killing Joke was trying warn against the one bad day idea, not supporting it. There are evil people by nature and not nurture.
Fuck if I know what the kid's supposed to be referring to. I'm not seeing any circular reasoning here and they forewent explanation in favour of smugness.
Ive said it before and ill say it again. I miss when joker just liked offing people, made bad jokes, robbed banks, and legitimately wanted to KILL BATMAN as opposed to the "oh i love him i dont want to kill him and want to prove a point about soeciety" version. Basically joker pre morrison era
Yep. I can respect interpretations where he feels he's lost something from Batman disappearing but not in some sick, stalker sense. Just the emptiness one can get from not having a real challenge to overcome anymore or having a favorite opponent that is no longer there. Just losing the one person that pushed you to be better. But that should never take priority of the Joker wanting to and getting satisfaction from killing Batman. The only reason he should get upset at anyone else doing the job is because he wanted the achievement of doing so and doing it in his own theatrical and climactic fashion.
@@killerblodychuky6 Ah, like in DCAU. If he has to kill him, it's got to be done with gusto, like turning his ward into his pawn and getting him to attempt to kill him as a nice bit of dramatic irony. The script writes itself.
I agree, something about a version of The Joker who gets teleported to fucking Apokolips and starts fanboying over the chaos, only to hide behind Batman as soon as Darkseid turns his attention against him is just hilarious in the best way possible, plus I think he and Harley’s relationship is the best in those games, the abusive relationship stuff is neat but basically everything that could be done with that concept has been, it’s still somewhat implied they might be romantic in the games but as the games went on it became less so and I honestly kinda prefer them as platonic partners in crime.
There's a large portion of fans who say things like "there is no batman without joker" when it comes to defending his overuse and many fail to see that they are pretty much downgrading his talk of having such a great rogues gallery. I mean Spider-Man, Superman and Flash can have great stories without their big bad but Batman can't? EDIT: it was a rhetorical question. Don't need to tell me. I know Batman can have great stories with little to no involvement of the Joker.
@@jessicalang1024 Batman can exist without Joker and we have seen it done before, just because he is iconic doesn't mean he is necessary to all narratives about the dark knight. While the Batman is an incredible movie with almost nothing in terms of the clown prince of crime, and the Penguin is by far one of the best crime series I ever watched especially if we are talking in terms of comic book characters, Joker 2 shows why the Joker does not work without Batman since he is made to oppose the dark knight but not much else on his own
You say that and yet every live action version of Superman has to have Lex Luthor involved somehow. Spider-Man has the same problem where oops it was Green Goblin all along is a running joke within the fanbase and Flash relies so heavily on Reverse Flash now that when The Flash TV show was airing almost every season's main villain was just made to be a copy of Reverse Flash if not just being the Reverse Flash himself.
@@InReserveProductionsThat’s false at least with other Spider-man media nearly none really uses the Green Goblin. Venom is more the go to villain throughout every story.
Joker doesn't feel like the Joker anymore, he's THE villain that monopolizes the joke themed villain type in comics, to the point that any other joke themed rogue (with the exception of Mr.Mxyzptlk) is always regarded as some sort of cheap copy of him, even in cases where it's absolutely untrue (like with Trickster) and YET it seems like writers don't want to deal with the gimmick beside making fun of it or using it in the most superficial way possible. Another problem i see is that every writer wants to amp up the others, everyone wants to write that big and bombastic Joker story that could become a must read but they fail in keeping the character consistent and deliver an actual good story so we get these big and bloated storylines that we'll forget in a week, it's so ironic that Paul Dini with "Slayride" was able to accomplish exactly what guys like Scott Snyder wanted and he did that with just a station wagon. Sometimes less is more. My idea for fixing the Joker is very simple: look back to Dixon's Joker stories. The point of Dixon's Joker stories is very simple and it's a point that could be applied to most of Joker's masterpieces like Englehart's "Laughing Fish" or Moore's "Killing Joke": Joker's crimes are ludicrous and yet he executes them with the utmost seriousness. The idea that all it takes is one bad day to make you a monster like Joker is stupid if you think about it but Joker treats it like it is this big revelation and he carries it out seriously cause THAT'S THE JOKE. You can apply this to Joker's appearance in Knightquest, "Devil's Advocate" or "Dreadful Birthday", "Dear Joker...!"
@@IMASAURUS1996 I think Scarecrow or Two-face should become Batman's nemesis, at least when Joker is out of the picture. I honestly forget how deep the rogues gallery is because DC loves to shove Joker and Harley in every single adaptation while the likes of Hugo Strange or even Bane get overlooked, in favor of another killing joke reference
@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 Two face would've make great sense with the connection he has with Batman and it's easy for audience to sympathize why he won't kill or abuse criminals.
Tbh they could be expanded on but there are so many others who need some exposure either 1st time on the silver screen or given a second look: Clayface, Court of Owls, Hush, Deathstroke, Croc...
@@illizcit1 strongly disagree with Deathstroke. We’ve seen him done too many times and it’s always either hit or miss, with more misses than hits tbh. Deathstroke needs a break. Or at the very least, stop having him fight everyone but the Teen Titans. Deathstroke was a Titans villain, but they’ve got him fighting everyone BUT them. (Don’t mention the live action show. What a disgrace that was).
I feel like the best way to use the Joker know is to just go all in on him being a wildcard. Like he will never be rehabilitated and he doesnt actually care or have an ideaology, but he is still content with himself. Like you could have Punchline be all about "society bad", but Joker is like "i really dont care about proving a point, or batman, or anything. I just want to do crazy shit and have a good time."
My solution would honestly be to just retire the character for like a year. Everyone is sick to death of him and it often feels like other villains are treated as accessories to the endless war between Batman and Joker. Even in Arkham Knight when the main villain is ostensibly Scarecrow, he gets basically completely drowned out by yet more Joker, even when the character is literally so dead you start the game by cremating him.
@@regularshowman3208 One year is very little if we are talking comics, he should be retired for five years to really feel genuine and to allow for story lines focused on other rogues. I think after Joker 2 we will see a decrease in the character use even if little, maybe the Penguin's success will sky rocket more projects exploring other rogues that haven't had a spotlight in the public eye, I am personally hoping for Two Face and Scarecrow to get really good adaptations since they feel like contenders for the title of "Batman's nemesis" But would also be cool to see minor rogues such as the Prometheus, Killer Moth or Maxie Zeuss make the jump into an live action adaptation
Comics biggest problem in general is how stagnant the scene is because we haven't given these heros and villians who are getting close to 100 years old rest.
so 1st, stop utilizing 'eDytH' it's a useless informal labelling of any type of definition that it's used within context. 2nd, there's no such thing as a 'Psychopath' etc. etc. 3rd, stop utilizing 'kid' in a paradoxical manner within the context of how someone would write The Joker. your standpoint is entirely reductive, superficial & is plagued with a higher set of perceived standards that gets determined in its absolute form of truth.
I really miss when Joker was ACTUALLY allowed to be funny like when he roasted Bennett for turning him into Clayface, knowing full well he is the main reason Ethan's life was ruined
Batgirl being sent to the fridge fucking sent me. EDIT: I think during the Killing Joke where Batman and Joker laugh, I always saw it as showing that at the end of the day nothing has changed.
Completely agree with you at 8:48. It really feels like because of the success of Heath Ledger's Joker performance in The Dark Knight, a lot of filmmakers and comic book writers have forgotten that the Joker character isn't just a homicidal maniac, but also a clown with a lot of chutzpah and panache who frequently makes dark jokes and uses clown themed gadgets like joy buzzers, bang flag guns, exploding chattering teeth, laughing gas, and acid squirting flowers, so seeing something like that again would be very welcomed.
People misinterpret Heath Ledger’s Joker nowadays. People think that his Joker was great because he looks like an anti-establishment punk guy. The reason Heath Ledger has an anti establishment punk style in the movie is to symbolize his chaotic nature and symbolizes him being death incarnate to Gotham City. Leto’s Joker, Phoenix’s Joker, and other comic Jokers glamorize being punky and being anti-establishment for the sake of it and for shock value.
OP, i truly wonder how that's the case with the 'Modern Joker' that apparently misinterpreted the Joker following along Heath Ledger's Joker. I wonder if you'll dissect & properly elaborate using 'independent critical/analytical thinking skills & an outlook onto different perspectives' because from what im seeing based off this video & the exemplification of the comment section being a bunch of superficial, reductive & indoctrinated dimwits. i barely have any hope for you to indulge on those things I've asked you to.
Funnily enough, i feel his appearance in Mortal Kombat 11 is the one of the most perfect interpretations. Hes still pretty mich a monster by all standards, but each of his moves is always trying to be comical and flashy in some sort of way, like they gave him a batman handpuppet gun and one of his fatalities is a fake friendship. Plush, he uses hostages as projectiles.
In my dc headcanon Joker does end up finally dying. I imagine the chemicals that created him are finally taking toll on his body, and he's dying. He ends up coming up with a master plan to take Gotham with him, and his plan for the most part is succeeding. But when he's about to detonate bombs all over Gotham, he ends up succumbing to his illness and dies, unable to give the punchline.
@@billyboleson2830True, there are several times where Batman is about to either let joker die or kill him himself, but the writers always find some bullshit cop out.
@@SilentSnake1998 “We can’t let Joker die! We won’t be able to make money anymore.” “You can’t just make his other villains shine more?” “No! That takes work! We like easy money!” This pretty much sums it up.
Joker is many things; he is a villain, a terrorist, a psychopath, a monster, an anarchist, an agent of chaos, a mass murderer, an abuser, a toxic lover, a patriot, a victim, and even a jiggilo (aka Jared Leto's Joker), but the one thing Joker is without question is that he's a clown, and one thing clowns need to be is *to be funny* This is something many interpretations of the Joker forget about the character as while the Joker is indeed a criminal megalomanic who creates chaos for fun, but still funny and actually makes you laugh with dark comedy. This is something Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger and Cameron Monaghan (Gotham FOX series Joker) understood when it came to playing the Joker in live action, and it is something Mark Hamill (BTAS/DCAU/Arkham Joker), Kevin Micheal Richardson (The Batman 2004 series Joker) and Anthony Ingruber (Telltale Joker) all understood when it came to voicing the Joker. *The Joker is a clown, and clowns are meant to make us laugh* Joker can, of course, be violent, psychotic and deranged of course but there needs to be a fine balance when depicting his criminal madness and his twisted comedy. Without understanding either you just get bad interpretations like Jared Leto's Joker or Joaquin Phoenix's 'Joker.'
also, get this indoctrination of this apparent higher set of perceived standards that this video brain-swayed into conformity regarding this comment section with the whole 'bUt hE nEeDS to maKe Us lAUgH' so superficial.
also, there's no such thing as the abstract concepts i.e (anti)Hero & (anti)Villain, Good & Evil, Psychopathy etc. & stop utilizing 'monster' in its allegorical factors against what it means to be human, it's completely paradoxical.
He's a failed clown. His jokes were terrible, so to cope with that, he committed horrific crimes. To him, that's funny. I don't think that's funny for normal people.
15:23 the end of the comic suggests Joker was fabricating the connection and was just using the myth to get a rise. One could say he was joking. It does not really line up with the later Three Jokers lore, though, so still could have been better handled.
Finally someone who understands that Joker is the type of villain that kicks a baby, makes an awful joke and just laughs his ass off, not a walking mental health PSA
The irony of making joker an edgy slasher villain is it made him more generic and predictable which goes against the whole point of him being the ultimate wild card hence the name. Joker didn’t just used to want to cause chaos he basically WAS chaos to the point Batman once admitted joker’s mad schemes only makes sense to himself alone because he’d orchestrate ruthless, murderous attacks one day and the next pull wacky antics like running for governor or poisoning fish. Putting on a grand theatrical spectacle with Gotham as his stage at Batman’s expense is what he’s after. In my opinion joker should have such disregard of others that killing is almost an afterthought to him unless he’s targeting specific people like how he’d come on the tv and announce “so and so will die at midnight!”
Death In The Family feels like a story that would work really well with Hush being the main antagonist, instead of Joker. Hush is, and was always a serial killer. Hush's secret identity, Thomas Elliot, wanted to ruin Bruce Wayne. What better way to ruin Wayne, than the "Family-Death" plan? Plus, in the Arkham trilogy he literally reconstructs his face from the parts he took from their own faces, to make himself look exactly like Bruce Wayne, so the idea of the body horror of him ripping faces from people is not unfounded. Arkham City was released in 2011, if I'm not mistaken. The game predates the issue by exactly one year upon release.
I feel its the reason why people are annoyed and infuriated about modern Joker. He is depicted as a edgy nobody, an overused villain or a person traunatized by society. He was supposed to be a chaotic menace yet fun was why he was engaging. And now he is just that. People are annoyed he costantly shows up and it may be strange because some media rely on their main bad guys like Superman's Lex or Fantastic Four's Doctor Doom. But Lex and Superman's relationship is integral to their dynamic plus Lex isn't being overused as MAWS had Parasite, Amada Waller, and Braniac as the bad guys. And Doom is THE main enemy of the Fantastic Four and Reeds Richards. I think the reason why many people love Doom and dislike Joker these days is that Joker is so played out. DC wants to make Joker do messed up things but that removes the fun energy he had. Then we had moments where characters are inspired by him. Like Batman Who Laughs or the main motivation of Punchline. Batman is overusing Joker so much the main villains don't have a time to shine. Meanwhile Dr. Doom is consistenly characterized very well and he had material that didn't ruin why we like him. He has so much moments where he was the best entertaining and interesting like teaming with Eddie Brock aka Venom or destroying Thanos. Joker may be beloved but people are getting tired of him. And I dislike that because Joker is my thies favorite Batman Rogue. And I think Absolute Batman and Batman Caped Crusader are making him better by adding new spins. Hopefully DC gives the other Bat rogues a chance and also not overuse Joker because he's losing the very thing that makes him The Joker.
also, stop utilizing 'eDgYTh' it's a informal labelling that means nothing & offers zero substance to any part of conversation, debate or any form of analysis. there's no such thing as a 'Villain' & vice versa.
@godzillazfriction Buddy, your comments are so devoid of substance and meaning that I genuinely think you should be a politician. Your amazing analysis is "there is no such thing as a villain"? Brilliant thinking! You're mean, you're stupid and you're wrong. Get off the Internet.
Three years is not enough, make it five to ten years so we truly get a feel for what is like to not have the clown around. Alternatively WB could pull a Beware the Batman and make a cartoon without the Joker entirely, focusing on lesser seen characters in terms of adaptation
Oh god, I never realized that Barbara got basically fridged. The implied SA and general humiliation of her always rubbed me the wrong way, but I never associated it with that trope for some reason. Killing Joke had some good moments, but the more time goes on, the more I agree with Alan Moore's take on it.
@@danse777macabre Yeah, I mean if it's well executed. People around the protagonist in general have tragedies happen to them regardless of gender, that's just how storytelling goes (when in doubt, ask Harvey Dent).
I kinda feel bad about Heath Ledger, he did such a legendary performance and people are starting to unjustly call it "edgy" or "overrated" because of mediocre copies of it and overall Joker fatigue...
Only major issue I have with The Joker, is DC has a very bad habit of thinking he's the ONLY worthwhile Batman villain to explore. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing villain, but I like it when we see more love also given to characters like Two-Face, Ra's Al Ghul, Mr. Freeze, The Penguin, Riddler etc
Honestly I’m surprised people still hold Killing Joke in high regard considering most of its biggest moments have been undone. Barbara is batgirl again, batman never killed joker, joker’s origin has been tampered with constantly (thanks three jokers). I think that story’s canonizing has removed any impact it had before.
@@leithaziz2716 just 20? Batman has appeared in 8 thousand comics, 26 thousand if you count cameos or team books. Character has existed for 85 years I think it's humanly impossible to keep up with all of his lore, even in just the last 20 years a whole lot has been done for the character in terms of comics
Does Joker even HAVE a character anymore? He feels almost flanderized to hell and back at this point! That is; when it doesn’t feel like the writers aren’t just trying to make him into a Carnage ripoff.
Modern joker has given us some gems like Femboy joker, the Woker, Jonkler, the Arkham subreddit, society memes and officer balls, guy fawkes vs joker, the jokah baby, my electric car Bruce, Batjokes, why so serious beatbox meme, no laws against the Pokémon Edit: sorry if this comment is cringe 💀
Modern Joker gave us in the Spanish speaking side of Facebook the group of La Sociedad and its spoofs on the "iT's LiTerAlLy mE" crowd Un saludo normal a la banda de La Sociedad!
telltale's joker is a different take on the character and a breath of fresh air when it comes to depictions of joker, but that wouldn't really have any place in this video
I feel like what a lot of modern Joker stories forget that while he can be a threatening and downright scary, he's still a clown that's trying to be funny too. He's not someone to be taken too seriously, because the moment you try to delute the comedy of the character, you basically remove part of his very essence as an iconic villain.
I think one of the things I hate the most about how modern writers handle joker, is that they’re afraid to just let him lose. For some reason, writers seem to hate the idea of joker getting his shit pushed in by Batman or any other hero, always trying to give him “the last laugh” and have him come out the other end as basically the winner. No, joker can’t just effortlessly take control of the justice league. No, Batman wouldn’t just let joker kill dozens of people before coming in to stop him. And no, joker wasn’t right about one bad day or any of the messages he tried to push. It’s like the writers can’t help but to glaze this guy to hell and back, when he’s supposed to be a putz who gets his shit pushed in by Batman all night. At the end of the day, he himself is supposed to be a joke.
Even though I'm a big Joker fan, I agree with the Joker fatigue. While he's the perfect foil for Batman, can we get big events that don't involve him at all? Or at least give us more smaller scale stories with him? My personal take on the Joker is that he's an evil clown with a twisted sense of humor who acts as the usher for the costumed criminals, replacing the pre-established mobsters who ran Gotham until Batman showed up. When it comes to the balance between goofy and edgy, I prefer him in an area around Jack Nicholson and The Killing Joke.
I feel like the Joker and Carnage are two great villains that each suffer from constant escalation and need to be brought back down to a smaller, more personal scale to reach their true storytelling potential.
I feel like you should do a deep dive into The New 52. A lot of issues post-52 seem to stem from this era of DC. But the most common one comes from the Batman-related comics.
*batman voice* i recreated the joker juice you fell into that supposedly turned you into the joker, i took a bath in it and it didnt do shit. You were just looking for an excuse to act that way. Your gig is Up, Joker. (proved to be the second most effective way to stop the joker from jokering.)
I think balancing him as a “joke” type character with his punchlines being brutal death should be somewhat like art the clown. Everything seems silly until your nose is being melted off by his flower.
To me, the Arkham Joker is in my personal top 3 versions of the character. He is funny like the diniverse version of BTAS, but when he is angry, damn, he reminds me of joker from ledger, best from both worlds
@@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 That‘s the issue with comics, isn’t it? The second Someone makes a cool, interesting, dark reimagining of a character and it gets popular, it’s all anyone ever actually does with the character for the next twenty years
I think another victim of 90s comic villain syndrome who didn't develop it till after the 90s is Dr. Light. I don't really know what he's like nowadays (Or if he's even around nowadays, IDK he could still be dead), but I do remember that ever since Identity Crisis, almost every subsequent appearance he's had since that comic always had him mentioning how much he loves r*ping people. It got so bad that I remember even Plastic Man commentated on it.
14:42 Deathshead is a recovering 90's comic villain syndrome survivor, although on batmans End I do remember them turning scarecrow into the scarebeast for a bit of that counts?
Another thing I would do is stop overusing him. I love the Joker, he's my favorite comic book villain but I'm so sick of him popping everywhere. We need like... 5 to 7 yeara of no Joker in comics or any adaptation, let other classic villains shine, create new ones, idk, but just give him a break.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Dark Knight Joker is a wonderful adaption of the Joker but he's written to be a master strategist because they needed to convey him as an equal to Batman within short 2 and a half hour run time. It's a condensed story. The problem is people saw that version of him and thought that this was how Joker was 24/7. Joker's not a villain sue. He's intelligent but he makes mistakes and is a victim of his own ego and nature.
This also kinda feeds into why Batman's no kill rule gets so much flack online, just off what people say, it sounds like Joker keeps getting worse to the point where not killing him is getting hard and harder to justify. As Joker is the main thing people cite when criticizing it.
I've gotta admit, I've gotten sick and tired of philosopher Joker. And as much as I have enjoyed Heath Ledger's portrayal, I think I'm leaning towards appreciating Nickolson's Mr. J more. But both are infinitely better than any modern portrayal.
I honestly have no problem with Modern Joker stories. I'd much rather have an Endgame or a Joker War, where stuff feel like they happen, over Detective Comics 1008, with the most cookie-cutter Joker story ever told. My problem with Joker is that he's way overexposed. I just don't think Joker is an interesting enough villain to carry so many story arcs. That's a problem with BTAS, the Arkham games, Matt Reeve's Batman, and especially comics. I really like Zdarsky's current run, but I actually felt betrayed when they announced that they would be interrupting the cool Zur-en-Arrh storyline to spend the entirety of February on pointless Joker bullshit. Joker War honestly handled the Joker the best, by spending as little time on him as possible. And I really like the subsequent Joker solo book, but that's pretty much purely because it's NOT a Joker book. It's about Jim Gordon, and I'm pretty sure Bane's daughter has more screen time than old Joe Kerr. Overall? The stories? Fine. These writers are great and know how to tell a good story. It's the frequency that really annoys me, use anybody else. Why did I have to wait until Penguin got his own show to get a cool story about him in the comics?
My biggest problem with joker is that every other villain does not get a single standalone story without joker coming in and he just ends up being the main villain. Also every other villain is just completely incapable of anything💀
It seems like ever sense Heath Ledger's Joker in The Dark Knight, DC has been trying to one up that by having The Joker do more messed up things like cutting off his face for instant and that's before you get into the constant monologues that are getting really old really fast. If I'm being honest, I miss when The Joker was funny committing psychotic crimes while making jokes at the same time. It has honestly made me tired of not only Heath Ledger Joker but every single version of character that came after that.
I think it would be interesting if DC played with this, if the Joker just stopped doing anything gruesome and edgy in terms of crime but instead began pulling wacky schemes or pranks in the citizens of Gotham, he is still known for those horribly gruesome crimes but that is the fun of it! You expect him to do something messed up with you but he is just a silly guy throwing cream pies at people, everyone thinks they are poisoned or something but they are just regular pies. He turns the murder clown vine back on it's head towards the silly side of clowns but everyone else is expecting some dark fucked up shit attached
I haven't finished the video yet but a big aspect of the 2 first jokers you mentioned: Joker is wrong! He tries to show Batman that the world is just as insane as he is, and the world proves him wrong! Gordon doesn't go insane, the ships don't explode! That is what makes Joker's relationship with Batman so good, he is wrong! People are good and can be good. Edit: Finished the video, DCAU's Joker is a perfect example of him being so wrong that it costs him his life. He wanted to prove to Batman, and to himself, that his philosophy was right but he ISN'T
I feel that the easiest way to write Joker is to relate his violence and criminality to how comedy works; sometimes the humor is absurdist, sometimes it is only funny to the comedian, sometimes the jokes don't land, and sometimes they go too far. Joker is always experimenting with his "routine", always keeping everyone on their toes but he knows that "you can never beat the classics". Also, the whole face thing should've been a Hush story. I mean CMON!
I think you kinda missed the point of Death of the Family. The whole arc is kinda similar to Killing Joke in that Joker tries his hardest to break and isolate an incorruptible individual, in this case Batman, but he thinks that by removing Bruce from his family, it will make him stronger and better foe. He sows a lot of distrust between Bruce and his family which they have to reconcile with throughout the story in order to defeat him. Joker's design and portrayal was moreso meant to show how truly desperate he was to get Batman back to his former and stronger self, resorting to asking Dollmaker to cut his face off. I think that a lot of bad things about modern Joker can be traced to this story but thats mostly because a lot of creative teams missed the whole Family part of Death of the Family.
The healthy balance of funny and scary is why I think Jim Carrey should have played the Joker. Looking at his Cable Guy performance. Yeah, he can do both.
@@leithaziz2716 Aye, but I went with Cable Guy as it shows he can pull of intimidating and psychotic if he wants to. The Mask is more zany and silly. Definately Joker elements in there though. Another reason is he is one of the few people that can actually do that unnaturally wide smile and can drop it to scowl when needed.
Maybe it's just me but I'd rather go for either Riddler, Scarecrow or Bane in Legion of Doom. Joker's never worked well on a team. Still like Lego Batman 2 though.
@@kendi5391 Riddler is a little to up his own ass (even more than lex is mind you) so I think the rest of the team would tolerate him less than they would Joker, Scarecrow, and bane.
@@powergoss0562 I guess. Still at most I'd just go for Scarecrow or Bane, but truth be told I'm not a big Joker fan so yeah. Also it never made sense to me for Captain Cold to be a member of the team due to his moral code.
I personally prefer Scarecrow as Batman's counterpart, I feel that their story has many parallels and that both represent "fear" in a different way. Joker is cool but honestly he's more like... this annoying kid who thinks he's more important than he is.
If I was to cast Joker in Live Action I would 100% go for a comedian / comedic actor. Even if they couldn't act some "amazing deep emotions" that would make Joker even more uncanny! He's a psyhopath! Make him funny, cringy, laughing at his own jokes when others do that only out of fear, beause he is singing Abba songs while torturing you and making puns. Make him wear colorfull flashy clothes, he wants to stand out, he wants to be what everyone's attention is on! And it would be more imersive because in some itterations Joker used ot be a comedian before turning crazy, so there would be the same dissonance for us, the audience, that the citizens of Gotham had. The whole idea of killer clown is based on the contrast between joyfull atmosphere those entertainers are suppose to bring with Joker's terrible actions, his guns and gadgets looking like toys etc. It's suppose to be more than just a makeup on a mafia boss!
As someone who is a big fan of Batman Wayne Family Adventures the start of season 3 really irked me with Joker taking over the story and other villains hyping him up "he's a wildfire you can't negotiate with a wild fire" really rolled my eyes at that As the story goes they're still trying to catch the Joker but course corrected and returned the focus to what the people wanted from WFA the relationships of the Batfamily
I do hate how people miss that heath is funny, every other joker after is either ironically funny or a philosopher. Harley Quinn somehow has a good joker, plus joker can be scary but the thing is whatever joker does joker needs to have something humorous to gain, when you think about his actions they could be misconstrued as comedic, unless he’s going out of his way not to be. Like say blowing up a hospital just to turn a city against Batman is kinda funny when you think that he single handedly ruined more lives in a day than Batman saved in 2 years
I agree that Heaths Joker is fantastic. But imo, he's not really the Joker, he's something else rather than the Joker. Something great, but something else nonetheless.
I feel a lot of his core is very much the Joker especially the Golden Age and Bronze/Modern era His main scheme/plot is from Killing Joke His mannerisms is more like the original Joker: a cold, calculating deadpan criminal Disguising himself as a cop was from his first issue His relationship with Batman Killing cops, judge rich people and politicians by announcing his crimes before they happen and committing them anyway He was very much the Joker in a more real world elements
@ Killing Joke and No Man’s Land (where he kidnaps all the babies in Gotham on New Years as a way to steal hope before killing Jim Gordon’s wife, also Dark Knight using the plot of switching the cops/hostages with his henchmen and other cops almost killed them), Gotham Central (Joker being a sniper and sending messages), etc had Joker doing themes of anarchism and chaos even before Dark Knight. Yes, Dark Knight emphasized those points, but there were multiple comics that took those themes before that
You basically articulated my issues with the the joker very well. What made him so good was not only was he Batman’s complete opposite but he was a genuine wild card. You never knew what he’d do and sometimes there was no reason other than it was funny to him. Now it’s all about a deep message about society. Stories like the one at 19:30 rarely if ever happen. Not to mention the DCAU handle him perfectly. One min he’s funny laughing with dark humor without a care in the world then the next he gets scary, really scary. Sometimes the terror comes from one joke hitting you to close to home and sometimes it’s when he stops laughing, and moments like that let you know even when he’s being light hearted in the moment, he’s still a monster. But that’s the problem, dc is so concerned about “society” message they forget he’s Realy is a monster, a very unpredictable monster.
Excellent. I wanna point out another well-known fundamental issue too: one comic Joker'll threaten to poison the town or torture dozens of innocents, but Batman and the justice system chucks him into Arkham and he walks out the next day and repeats. Batman's "no killing" (or at least critically injure) rule becomes hypocritical when he's indirectly killing hordes of new victims every new story. The way I'd milk this (because make no mistake, both hero and villain are just edgy teen wet dreams and there's no fixing that, we only milk it) is have Bat come up with more "permanent solutions". Maybe he cripples the Joker in one arc (don't worry, he'll get better eventually) and he has to concoct next plans only using his mind like some anti-Oracle (who we should also bring in for strong parallels). Maybe Joker DOES get executed at some point or shipped to a high security facility proving the prison and justice system is not a complete joke. 'fcourse these stories still run on "ivincible serial killer edgy teen wet dream" vibes.
I always like to think the joker only really does things if he sees the potential for a really ironic joke that batman or whoever else it is will get years down the line
Jokers never really appealed to me. I like his characterization in Serious House on Serious Earth but beyond that he doesn't do it for me. I love Penguin, Man-Bat, Batmite, and plenty of other Bat-Foils. I think Ras should be Bruces greatest foe. But Joker, Riddler, and the Court of Owls all have a hard time connecting with me.
I want a return to batman 66, just have some fun again. Not as a mainstay but be nice to have multiple takes on batman and joker again instead of having to do the same gritty origin story for another 50 times. I also hate how the bat family are exiled from movie adaptations. On the topic of the video, I agree its tiring how they keep making Joker into this edgy horror clown man.
My favorite jokers are the ones who just likes chaos. Not meant to be the "Society" meme but like BTAS type or the Arkham Asylum version. Someone that doesn't need redemption. Pre-Killing joke would be awesome again.
I like Heath Ledger’s Joker, but I do agree that’s what started this horrible trend with Joker. Modern Joker just exists for shock value and nothing else. He needs to be toned down. He doesn’t need to be Cesar Romero (though still a GOAT) but he can’t also be the same Joker skinning people alive, SA’ing women in the backseat of cars, poisoning Boy Scouts, and ripping the limbs off infant babies. It’s sick. I promise you tone down Joker, fans will shut up about Batman’s No-Kill rule. People only bring that up when it comes to Joker. Never, Penguin, Riddler, Mr Freeze, or Two-Face. The 90’s cartoon had the right balance when it came to Joker.
The problem with modern Joker is that they've effectively made him into something he's not. Joker is a supervillain. What he's not is a slasher movie antagonist. And personally, it started...with Ledger's Joker. Yes, he's great, but that was the gasoline that started the inferno and that's largely because Nolan was so obsessed with realism. Ledger was, for my money, excellent...but not remotely as ideal as people claim. He's not nearly funny enough and, that's the thing. What makes Joker interesting is that he IS twistedly funny, charismatic, and insane. Now, on film, he's often just portrayed as looking like a meth addict and depicted as just a serial killer. He's now ripping people's faces off and wearing them. I mean, come on. Yes, Joker is a killer, but to relegate him to JUST a killer is to limit him. He's also a criminal mastermind, a clown, a comedian, and utterly insane. The clown side of the Joker seems to have been nearly forgotten, and, frankly, I blame that on film directors being OBSESSED with making "dark realistic" Batman projects that seem to almost resent the source material coming from comic books. I'm all for Joker pushing the limits, but I don't think darkly mature means he CAN'T be funny and charismatic at the same time. One of the scariest things about Joker is that he IS funny. He's murderous...AND he finds it FUNNY. That's messed up. Now it's just edgelord stuff. Absolutely shock value, agreed entirely, but it's like...Joker isn't Leatherface. Stop focusing so heavily on the homicidal and "scary" aspects of Joker, start making it feel organic when he kills. The most recent Joker I loved was the Arkham Games Joker, a version that's still lethal... but retains humor, gags, and remains a criminal before a serial killer. And this, by proxy, spread like the black plague to ALL Batman villains. Case in point: Look at what Matt Reeve's did to Riddler. It's not the Riddler, it's the Zodiac Killer. It's as if writers today don't seem to even understand that in order to make a mature threat from these characters, you don't have to devolve them into edgelord slasher territory. He could have easily still kept the charismatic game show host mentality of Edward Nigma; he could still kill people and be a real threat; the story could still be mature...but no, just make it Zodiac. It's not even the same character. Might be the same shtick...but isn't the same personality of the Riddler. It's time we bring Batman villains BACK to being the best SUPERVILLAINS of all-time...and not deminished to just one-dimensional slash movie monsters. At this rate...I half expect Riddler or Joker to just eat babies...and they call it "realistic and mature."
The idea of joker having a sad backstory works pretty good for me. The parts I don’t like are when they try to get all philosophical and deep, to me the joker is just a weirdo who enjoys chaos and torment and does random insane things…. Not all just horrific gruesome murders but have the joker do something weird like mess with people’s plumbing and vandalize public property. Have him cause goofy random chaos that’s what I like about joker
People talk about "Batgod" when Batman is too powerful and compotent which makes him less interesting. But people don't tend to talk about Joker in the same way, even though I'd argue it is a similar problem. at the end of the day both are supposed to be characters that lack superpowers. And when a non-powerd criminal clown is able to thren the lives of everyone on the east coast on an almost weekly basis it's not surprising anymore. And it makes the reader question where the justice league is in all these events? ̶i̶s̶ ̶B̶a̶t̶m̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶t̶u̶p̶i̶d̶?̶
As a Nu52 Batman glazer I'll pitch in my two cents on the Joker as portrayed in that run, as in, he's a total fraud. Every time he appears he gets defeated by Batman calling his bluff, and poking holes in much vaunted philosophiy (same in the Dark Knight too, the people on the boats refuse to sink to his level). You said him cutting his face off was incredibly superficial? That's the point! His character in the Snyder run is completely centered around the fact that he can't cope with being "just" a mass murdering psycho, so he tries *really* hard to be this idea of being the embodiment of chaos (explicitly in Endgame when he claims to be the pale man, which Batman utterly calls his bluff on). I do agree with the criticisms about him not being funny, like at all. Scott Snyder is talented, except when it comes to writing funny dialogue for the Jonkler in particular (his Bruce and Dick are decently funny imo).
I'll take your word for it that this was all written intentionally and not a hidden meaning that was totally there from the jump from the author's gigamind and not headcanon cope made by a fan. But even with all this in mind. That still just sounds really boring compared to other takes on the Joker we've gotten in the past.
You don't have to take my word for it, it's literally in the story just short of the narration being "Wow, crazy how Batman finds fulfillment in helping others while the Joker has to come up with complex schemes just to remain a miserable asshole" If it doesn't sound like your cup of tea that's fair enough, even as a fan of those stories I have some issues with them (that whole thing with the JLA getting jokerized was fucking stupid for example)
I remember back to when Joker scolded Harley about ruining the punchline. He got so upset at Harley, he threw her out a window. To Joker, it’s more than just a violent slaughter and being edgy. I like how he has a good mix of humor and being terrifying. Personally, Jared Leto was what made me lose interest in Joker. The Damaged tattoo screams edgy 15 year-old that thinks Hazbin Hotel and South Park are philosophical. And the Suicide Squad game’s Joker is just as terrible. A unneeded DLC for a game that embodies edginess and plot armor. Harley Quinn Animated Series’s Joker is the same, and more annoying. Pretty much everyone is dumbed down to boost Harley and Ivy. Major plot armor. I only watch the series for Bane. I realized Joker has been done to death after playing Arkham Knight. I thought it would main Scarecrow, but each Arkham game goes straight back to Joker. I can understand the ongoing story between the two, it’s kinda annoying. Rocksteady hyped up these villains, just for it to be Joker. Lego Joker is probably the only exception for it being just completely goofy. It’s a Lego movie, it’s not meant to be serious, and it was funny. He’s not really scary, just a pestering menace to Batman. Joker is Batman’s #1 rival, so I think his appearances should limit for something major, that actually involves and requires Joker to be in it. I can’t really say get rid of Joker.
sorry to those who were watching the first version of this vid!! i had to reupload because of some editing errors
No worries ❤
I did notice part way through with the text on screen, but ye good video regardless happy to watch the reupload.
That why moi comments disappeared?
I’ve had to do that too, it’s understandable.
Scott Snyder is a horror writer so yeah I can understand why he failed to land the whole comedic sociopathy aspect of Joker. Court of the Owls was his greatest contribution on my opinion.
You mentioned Arkham's Joker. One of my favourite bits of his was in Asylum. You hear these thugs talking, one says 'he asked me to kill my sister, I done it', then another guy says "yeah he asked me too, I kept trying to tell him I didn't have a sister but he kept asking, so I just ran down some random woman". That, to me feels like a great capture of the balance Joker should be.
Oh and shout outs to Telltale Joker, underrated adaptation.
Telltale did something unique with it's version, I appreciate them for that
Shoutouts to John Doe for being a pretty normal guy, all things considered. He's just a lil quirky.
I think Arkham Joker strikes the right balance of being a psychotic mastermind, and just legitimately funny with fun bits. Even when as he's minutes before dying he still cracks jokes.
"Every decision you ever make ends with death and misery. People die, I stop you, you'll just break out and do it again"
"Think of it as a running gag"
He stabs Batman right as he says it, and it ironically makes him drop the cure by accident. It's almost poetic how his own antics led to his end.
@@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 I think it’s also interesting showing how Bruce’s choices affected the creation of the Joker in a more active way with John Doe. Taking the tragedy up , by making him someone who’s being haunted by the darker potential and Bruce’s actions are what leads him to become a vigilante or the clown Prince
I love Joker in Asylum and City. He appears way too much in Knight.
@@BonnieFluff I think what makes it work is how he combines elements of TAS, the movies (Nicholson and Ledger) and the comics to make a new and innovative Joker.
From design (appearance, the Joker has been given a make-up based Glasgow smile to make it look like he's always smiling. The medical roll as spats, etc) to personality. This felt like a perfect Joker from the comics that fits the gothic horror landscape of the Arkham games
Keep the joker funny and scary don’t let him become a horror movie serial killer with a clown theme
@@Magicghost23 We got plenty, Terrifier specially feels like what DC has been doing with The Joker considering all the messed up things he has done
Joker can be multiple things. He is a versatile character. Horror, grim cold and calculating or a comedian who commits crime and kills. There’s been multiple ways to do it
@@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 Even Art the clown, terrifier's primary antagonist is funny and has several moments of comedy that help enhance him as a character
@@Birds_In_Crime haven't watched those movies, only saw trailers since they seem to be the type of movie that makes you really uncomfortable real quick (not a fan of long scenes of gore and torture in excess)
@@michealmahmoud6391the thing that makes us sad is about popular media forjing peoples opinion, and Jonkler 2019 was a big success, kinda makes the people wanting for more tragic stories
What Nicholson & Ledger nailed about the Joker is that while he’s violent, he’s also funny. These new emo jokers aren’t funny.
Plus they had substance. Modern Jokers are just shock value and nothing else.
Ledger’s joker is not at all funny. Especially compared to Jack Nicholson who had me cracking up every scene
Ledger’s joker was more serious than any other Joker yet has the nerve to say “why so serious?” Hell even Jared Leto was funnier than him
@@BootsBr8ksNot really, Ledger may have been cold and serious but he has multiple humor moments
@@michealmahmoud6391One scene that comes to mind is the "disappearing" pencil bit
Joker needs to be wrong again. They keep trying to ascend him and his cause to new levels but he's better when his statements, his causes are simply refuted. BTAS Joker has him stalking a fat little nobody that punishes him, not through violence but tricking him with a dummy bomb to bare his entire life's thesis to the world and how pathetic it is. He even gets a laugh out of Batman, something the Joker wants but can't get.
Killing Joke, as pointed out, his one bad day for Gordon fails.
The actual Arkham games end with Joker pathetically begging to never be forgotten as he indeed is getting locked away to be forgotten.
Dark Knight, Heath Ledger talks about how, like him, everyone will just sacrifice each other, just to be told no by nobody giving into his games at the end.
Joker is best when his beliefs lose.
1st off you can't determine what's 'wrong' & vice versa in its absolute form of truth.
finally, what is the essence of the thematic process of Joker needing his beliefs or whatever you spewed to being false or as you put it wrong' - or have his beliefs 'lose'.
also, it's your 1st paragraph in conclusion a non-sequitur with the batman laughing but then you pointing out how it's something that Joker wants but can't get... huhuhuh???
@@godzillazfriction
The Joker is quite definitively wrong in many of those examples though.
@godzillafriction joker got Batman to laugh by being pathetically wrong, not by being funny like he wanted to. Are you dense or do you just pretend to be? Fancy words don’t mean jack if you can’t use em mate
@@yurifairy2969 do i really need tp reiterate this to you?
Modern Joker just feels like Cletus Kassidy/Victor Zasz in Clown makeup.
I hate how much this comparison makes sense
Nah Cletus is a at least entertaining and 70s-90s Joker was distinct enough from him. The Modern Edgy juggalo though ? There is a reason editors are needed...
@@zillafire101 I remember seeing a fan fiction where joker started doing wacky schemes. And when asked why he said "I was starting to become another zsaz. And we don't need more than one of that guy."
i'm sure ledger's joker is victor zsasz here
@@lorenzopqsim not really. That is a surface level comparison
I REALLY believe people misunderstood the killing joke. The idea of one bad day is fucking bullshit. And because of this misunderstanding, they decided to have joker be this horror movie styled extremist. It's almost ridiculous.
gotta love the Homunculus Fallacy from you.
@@godzillazfriction ????
exactly. we all make choices, and to do evil is a choice, no matter the circumstances. The Killing Joke was trying warn against the one bad day idea, not supporting it. There are evil people by nature and not nurture.
Fuck if I know what the kid's supposed to be referring to. I'm not seeing any circular reasoning here and they forewent explanation in favour of smugness.
@@demi-femme4821 is that you projecting... don't even answer. I already know.
Ive said it before and ill say it again. I miss when joker just liked offing people, made bad jokes, robbed banks, and legitimately wanted to KILL BATMAN as opposed to the "oh i love him i dont want to kill him and want to prove a point about soeciety" version. Basically joker pre morrison era
Yep. I can respect interpretations where he feels he's lost something from Batman disappearing but not in some sick, stalker sense. Just the emptiness one can get from not having a real challenge to overcome anymore or having a favorite opponent that is no longer there. Just losing the one person that pushed you to be better. But that should never take priority of the Joker wanting to and getting satisfaction from killing Batman. The only reason he should get upset at anyone else doing the job is because he wanted the achievement of doing so and doing it in his own theatrical and climactic fashion.
Personally I like the idea of him not wanting to kill batman but not not wanting to kill batman if that makes sense
Do I kinda like the idea of him feeling lost if ever actually succeeded in killing him
@@killerblodychuky6you mean wanting to BREAK Batman?
@@killerblodychuky6 Ah, like in DCAU. If he has to kill him, it's got to be done with gusto, like turning his ward into his pawn and getting him to attempt to kill him as a nice bit of dramatic irony. The script writes itself.
You know who's extremely underrated?
Mad Hatter.
Fucking love that guy
Anarky.
Can't agree more. Mad Hatter is actually much better at injecting horror into Batman than Scarecrow or Zsasz. He's so outwardly, obviously perverse.
Oh it doesn't matter. It's all just chemicals and synapses and rabbits and where is Alice?
@@JP-1990 Crazy Quilt.
My hot Joker take is that the LEGO games version of the Joker is my favorite, he's just a silly little guy
LEGO Batman Movie mentioned (peak fiction)
I agree, something about a version of The Joker who gets teleported to fucking Apokolips and starts fanboying over the chaos, only to hide behind Batman as soon as Darkseid turns his attention against him is just hilarious in the best way possible, plus I think he and Harley’s relationship is the best in those games, the abusive relationship stuff is neat but basically everything that could be done with that concept has been, it’s still somewhat implied they might be romantic in the games but as the games went on it became less so and I honestly kinda prefer them as platonic partners in crime.
I love Arkham Joker he can be pretty funny at times. Mark Hamill never disappoints as Joker.
Robin:and Bruce Wayne man of the year reward
Joker: this is MY reward! Very clearly me !
“Im just going to come out and say it… I hate you, Joker.”
“GAAASP… I hate you too…”
“I hate you more.”
“I hate you the most.”
“I hate you forever.”
There's a large portion of fans who say things like "there is no batman without joker" when it comes to defending his overuse and many fail to see that they are pretty much downgrading his talk of having such a great rogues gallery. I mean Spider-Man, Superman and Flash can have great stories without their big bad but Batman can't? EDIT: it was a rhetorical question. Don't need to tell me. I know Batman can have great stories with little to no involvement of the Joker.
@@jessicalang1024 Batman can exist without Joker and we have seen it done before, just because he is iconic doesn't mean he is necessary to all narratives about the dark knight. While the Batman is an incredible movie with almost nothing in terms of the clown prince of crime, and the Penguin is by far one of the best crime series I ever watched especially if we are talking in terms of comic book characters, Joker 2 shows why the Joker does not work without Batman since he is made to oppose the dark knight but not much else on his own
You say that and yet every live action version of Superman has to have Lex Luthor involved somehow. Spider-Man has the same problem where oops it was Green Goblin all along is a running joke within the fanbase and Flash relies so heavily on Reverse Flash now that when The Flash TV show was airing almost every season's main villain was just made to be a copy of Reverse Flash if not just being the Reverse Flash himself.
@@InReserveProductionsThat’s false at least with other Spider-man media nearly none really uses the Green Goblin. Venom is more the go to villain throughout every story.
@@Jsipki265 What are you smoking? TV, movies, games all of them Green Goblin is featured more than Venom and by a large margin.
@ ? Like what? Most animated series and video games mostly never purely focus in Green Goblin
Joker doesn't feel like the Joker anymore, he's THE villain that monopolizes the joke themed villain type in comics, to the point that any other joke themed rogue (with the exception of Mr.Mxyzptlk) is always regarded as some sort of cheap copy of him, even in cases where it's absolutely untrue (like with Trickster) and YET it seems like writers don't want to deal with the gimmick beside making fun of it or using it in the most superficial way possible.
Another problem i see is that every writer wants to amp up the others, everyone wants to write that big and bombastic Joker story that could become a must read but they fail in keeping the character consistent and deliver an actual good story so we get these big and bloated storylines that we'll forget in a week, it's so ironic that Paul Dini with "Slayride" was able to accomplish exactly what guys like Scott Snyder wanted and he did that with just a station wagon.
Sometimes less is more.
My idea for fixing the Joker is very simple: look back to Dixon's Joker stories.
The point of Dixon's Joker stories is very simple and it's a point that could be applied to most of Joker's masterpieces like Englehart's "Laughing Fish" or Moore's "Killing Joke": Joker's crimes are ludicrous and yet he executes them with the utmost seriousness.
The idea that all it takes is one bad day to make you a monster like Joker is stupid if you think about it but Joker treats it like it is this big revelation and he carries it out seriously cause THAT'S THE JOKE.
You can apply this to Joker's appearance in Knightquest, "Devil's Advocate" or "Dreadful Birthday", "Dear Joker...!"
90s Joker rules. That is all.
I only disagree with you on Killing Joke, that one sucks. Give me Case Study any day over Moore's BS...
Joker definitely needs to take a break. So that the next time he shows up it'll be meaningful.
You always save the championship fights for the PPV.
@@IMASAURUS1996 I think Scarecrow or Two-face should become Batman's nemesis, at least when Joker is out of the picture. I honestly forget how deep the rogues gallery is because DC loves to shove Joker and Harley in every single adaptation while the likes of Hugo Strange or even Bane get overlooked, in favor of another killing joke reference
Ngl,we need another bane arc, maybe have scarecrow as the secondary antagonist of it.@@mateushenriquepinheiro3197
@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 Two face would've make great sense with the connection he has with Batman and it's easy for audience to sympathize why he won't kill or abuse criminals.
Tbh they could be expanded on but there are so many others who need some exposure either 1st time on the silver screen or given a second look: Clayface, Court of Owls, Hush, Deathstroke, Croc...
@@illizcit1 strongly disagree with Deathstroke. We’ve seen him done too many times and it’s always either hit or miss, with more misses than hits tbh. Deathstroke needs a break. Or at the very least, stop having him fight everyone but the Teen Titans. Deathstroke was a Titans villain, but they’ve got him fighting everyone BUT them. (Don’t mention the live action show. What a disgrace that was).
I feel like the best way to use the Joker know is to just go all in on him being a wildcard. Like he will never be rehabilitated and he doesnt actually care or have an ideaology, but he is still content with himself.
Like you could have Punchline be all about "society bad", but Joker is like "i really dont care about proving a point, or batman, or anything. I just want to do crazy shit and have a good time."
My solution would honestly be to just retire the character for like a year. Everyone is sick to death of him and it often feels like other villains are treated as accessories to the endless war between Batman and Joker. Even in Arkham Knight when the main villain is ostensibly Scarecrow, he gets basically completely drowned out by yet more Joker, even when the character is literally so dead you start the game by cremating him.
@@regularshowman3208 One year is very little if we are talking comics, he should be retired for five years to really feel genuine and to allow for story lines focused on other rogues. I think after Joker 2 we will see a decrease in the character use even if little, maybe the Penguin's success will sky rocket more projects exploring other rogues that haven't had a spotlight in the public eye, I am personally hoping for Two Face and Scarecrow to get really good adaptations since they feel like contenders for the title of "Batman's nemesis"
But would also be cool to see minor rogues such as the Prometheus, Killer Moth or Maxie Zeuss make the jump into an live action adaptation
Comics biggest problem in general is how stagnant the scene is because we haven't given these heros and villians who are getting close to 100 years old rest.
@@rdogg114 Batman enters the public domain in just 10 years! Isn't that crazy?
Make it 5 - 10 years honestly give other villains the spotlight. Give me prometheus unless he's still dead.
He's either an edgy psychopath written by like a 14 year old or LitTeRrAlLy Me type character
your comment is as superficial as this video... as well as this comment section.
so 1st, stop utilizing 'eDytH' it's a useless informal labelling of any type of definition that it's used within context.
2nd, there's no such thing as a 'Psychopath' etc. etc.
3rd, stop utilizing 'kid' in a paradoxical manner within the context of how someone would write The Joker. your standpoint is entirely reductive, superficial & is plagued with a higher set of perceived standards that gets determined in its absolute form of truth.
@@godzillazfriction- “🤓☝️”
@@godzillazfriction 🤓
@@godzillazfrictionJesus Christ, you’re bouncing on that clown cock
I really miss when Joker was ACTUALLY allowed to be funny
like when he roasted Bennett for turning him into Clayface, knowing full well he is the main reason Ethan's life was ruined
Love the 2004 show
Batgirl being sent to the fridge fucking sent me.
EDIT: I think during the Killing Joke where Batman and Joker laugh, I always saw it as showing that at the end of the day nothing has changed.
That was dumb
I think that was the idea with the title, joker went through all these lengths all for nothing.
My favorite joker at the time was 2004 joker
Was scary, was funny, can fight, and was a vampire (at one point)
The rain of blood scene in Batman vs Dracula is pretty cool and Kevin Micheal Richardson did a great job
Honestly same here, gangster angle doesn't really stick with me.
I prefer this nutjub!
Agreed. He was peak Joker who deserves more love
2004 Joker is my second favorite because of all that. He's just so much god damn fun.
I'm a 2000s kid so the 2004 Joker was my introduction to Batman as a whole.
Completely agree with you at 8:48.
It really feels like because of the success of Heath Ledger's Joker performance in The Dark Knight, a lot of filmmakers and comic book writers have forgotten that the Joker character isn't just a homicidal maniac, but also a clown with a lot of chutzpah and panache who frequently makes dark jokes and uses clown themed gadgets like joy buzzers, bang flag guns, exploding chattering teeth, laughing gas, and acid squirting flowers, so seeing something like that again would be very welcomed.
People misinterpret Heath Ledger’s Joker nowadays.
People think that his Joker was great because he looks like an anti-establishment punk guy.
The reason Heath Ledger has an anti establishment punk style in the movie is to symbolize his chaotic nature and symbolizes him being death incarnate to Gotham City.
Leto’s Joker, Phoenix’s Joker, and other comic Jokers glamorize being punky and being anti-establishment for the sake of it and for shock value.
@@petermj1098yep... whenever the argument consists of 'shock value' i immediately smell overzealous superficiality.
OP, i truly wonder how that's the case with the 'Modern Joker' that apparently misinterpreted the Joker following along Heath Ledger's Joker.
I wonder if you'll dissect & properly elaborate using 'independent critical/analytical thinking skills & an outlook onto different perspectives' because from what im seeing based off this video & the exemplification of the comment section being a bunch of superficial, reductive & indoctrinated dimwits. i barely have any hope for you to indulge on those things I've asked you to.
@ You didn’t say I was wrong lol
"Just like Kevin Conroy IS Batman" man 😔 Rest in peace king
Funnily enough, i feel his appearance in Mortal Kombat 11 is the one of the most perfect interpretations. Hes still pretty mich a monster by all standards, but each of his moves is always trying to be comical and flashy in some sort of way, like they gave him a batman handpuppet gun and one of his fatalities is a fake friendship. Plush, he uses hostages as projectiles.
In my dc headcanon Joker does end up finally dying. I imagine the chemicals that created him are finally taking toll on his body, and he's dying. He ends up coming up with a master plan to take Gotham with him, and his plan for the most part is succeeding. But when he's about to detonate bombs all over Gotham, he ends up succumbing to his illness and dies, unable to give the punchline.
@@reidcunningham5906 Kinda like that one Batman Brave and The Bold episode.
Joker is a great bad guy but he is SUPER easy to turn into a tiresome Villain-Sue.
Jokers plot armor is far FAR worse then batmans and im tired of pretending otherwise
@@billyboleson2830True, there are several times where Batman is about to either let joker die or kill him himself, but the writers always find some bullshit cop out.
@@SilentSnake1998 “We can’t let Joker die! We won’t be able to make money anymore.”
“You can’t just make his other villains shine more?”
“No! That takes work! We like easy money!”
This pretty much sums it up.
Joker is many things; he is a villain, a terrorist, a psychopath, a monster, an anarchist, an agent of chaos, a mass murderer, an abuser, a toxic lover, a patriot, a victim, and even a jiggilo (aka Jared Leto's Joker), but the one thing Joker is without question is that he's a clown, and one thing clowns need to be is *to be funny*
This is something many interpretations of the Joker forget about the character as while the Joker is indeed a criminal megalomanic who creates chaos for fun, but still funny and actually makes you laugh with dark comedy. This is something Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger and Cameron Monaghan (Gotham FOX series Joker) understood when it came to playing the Joker in live action, and it is something Mark Hamill (BTAS/DCAU/Arkham Joker), Kevin Micheal Richardson (The Batman 2004 series Joker) and Anthony Ingruber (Telltale Joker) all understood when it came to voicing the Joker.
*The Joker is a clown, and clowns are meant to make us laugh*
Joker can, of course, be violent, psychotic and deranged of course but there needs to be a fine balance when depicting his criminal madness and his twisted comedy. Without understanding either you just get bad interpretations like Jared Leto's Joker or Joaquin Phoenix's 'Joker.'
'bAD iTerAtI0Ns' you can't determine what's 'bad' & vice versa in its absolute form of truth.
also, your conclusion is Homunculus spewage.
also, get this indoctrination of this apparent higher set of perceived standards that this video brain-swayed into conformity regarding this comment section with the whole 'bUt hE nEeDS to maKe Us lAUgH' so superficial.
also, there's no such thing as the abstract concepts i.e (anti)Hero & (anti)Villain, Good & Evil, Psychopathy etc. & stop utilizing 'monster' in its allegorical factors against what it means to be human, it's completely paradoxical.
He's a failed clown. His jokes were terrible, so to cope with that, he committed horrific crimes. To him, that's funny. I don't think that's funny for normal people.
Dude Godzillafriction...there are bad iterations look at Birds of Prey movie they did a HORRIBLE iteration of Cassandra Cain...
15:23 the end of the comic suggests Joker was fabricating the connection and was just using the myth to get a rise. One could say he was joking. It does not really line up with the later Three Jokers lore, though, so still could have been better handled.
Finally someone who understands that Joker is the type of villain that kicks a baby, makes an awful joke and just laughs his ass off, not a walking mental health PSA
I miss the old classic Joker, there were times where he can be funny or scary or sometimes both, he is very unpredictable.
The irony of making joker an edgy slasher villain is it made him more generic and predictable which goes against the whole point of him being the ultimate wild card hence the name. Joker didn’t just used to want to cause chaos he basically WAS chaos to the point Batman once admitted joker’s mad schemes only makes sense to himself alone because he’d orchestrate ruthless, murderous attacks one day and the next pull wacky antics like running for governor or poisoning fish. Putting on a grand theatrical spectacle with Gotham as his stage at Batman’s expense is what he’s after. In my opinion joker should have such disregard of others that killing is almost an afterthought to him unless he’s targeting specific people like how he’d come on the tv and announce “so and so will die at midnight!”
Death In The Family feels like a story that would work really well with Hush being the main antagonist, instead of Joker. Hush is, and was always a serial killer. Hush's secret identity, Thomas Elliot, wanted to ruin Bruce Wayne. What better way to ruin Wayne, than the "Family-Death" plan? Plus, in the Arkham trilogy he literally reconstructs his face from the parts he took from their own faces, to make himself look exactly like Bruce Wayne, so the idea of the body horror of him ripping faces from people is not unfounded. Arkham City was released in 2011, if I'm not mistaken. The game predates the issue by exactly one year upon release.
I think you mean "Death of the Family", not "Death in the Family".
@@goj1_lag00n shoot. Yes. Get the name confused a lot.😅
30 likes!? A lot of people might agree or think it's a good idea.
That would’ve actually been interesting and given Hush some more relevance.
@@a_fine_edition2746 Yes, it definitely would, although I wonder how hard it would've been to convince DC of that fact back then... DC editorial.
“I am such a freak. Society is bad. You drink water, I drink anarchy. I have never followed a rule. That is my rule. Do you follow? I don’t.”
Thanks for casting me as The Joker! It was a blast portraying The Clown Prince of Crime!
Great video essay, as usual!
I feel its the reason why people are annoyed and infuriated about modern Joker. He is depicted as a edgy nobody, an overused villain or a person traunatized by society. He was supposed to be a chaotic menace yet fun was why he was engaging. And now he is just that.
People are annoyed he costantly shows up and it may be strange because some media rely on their main bad guys like Superman's Lex or Fantastic Four's Doctor Doom. But Lex and Superman's relationship is integral to their dynamic plus Lex isn't being overused as MAWS had Parasite, Amada Waller, and Braniac as the bad guys. And Doom is THE main enemy of the Fantastic Four and Reeds Richards.
I think the reason why many people love Doom and dislike Joker these days is that Joker is so played out. DC wants to make Joker do messed up things but that removes the fun energy he had. Then we had moments where characters are inspired by him. Like Batman Who Laughs or the main motivation of Punchline. Batman is overusing Joker so much the main villains don't have a time to shine.
Meanwhile Dr. Doom is consistenly characterized very well and he had material that didn't ruin why we like him. He has so much moments where he was the best entertaining and interesting like teaming with Eddie Brock aka Venom or destroying Thanos.
Joker may be beloved but people are getting tired of him. And I dislike that because Joker is my thies favorite Batman Rogue. And I think Absolute Batman and Batman Caped Crusader are making him better by adding new spins. Hopefully DC gives the other Bat rogues a chance and also not overuse Joker because he's losing the very thing that makes him The Joker.
your 'critical analysis' on the Joker is dryer than dry wall.
also, stop utilizing 'eDgYTh' it's a informal labelling that means nothing & offers zero substance to any part of conversation, debate or any form of analysis.
there's no such thing as a 'Villain' & vice versa.
another also, you definitely inhaled that conformism gas from this video.
@@godzillazfrictionbro chill let people have their opinion too , stop going to every comment and typing the word that almost no one understands..
@godzillazfriction Buddy, your comments are so devoid of substance and meaning that I genuinely think you should be a politician.
Your amazing analysis is "there is no such thing as a villain"? Brilliant thinking!
You're mean, you're stupid and you're wrong.
Get off the Internet.
We should take like a 3 year hiatus from joker
Focus on other villains
Like reverse flash or cap cold literally anyone esle
Those are Flash villains.
But yeah a lot of Batman rogues need a refresher, especially in adaptations. WHERE IS MY KILLER MOTH MOVIE?!
Three years is not enough, make it five to ten years so we truly get a feel for what is like to not have the clown around. Alternatively WB could pull a Beware the Batman and make a cartoon without the Joker entirely, focusing on lesser seen characters in terms of adaptation
@@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 Or just in general not using him.
While I think he can occasionally pop up every now and then, I think maybe it’s best if he’s not put in any major roles for a bit
@aldusty2734 that is a good alternative
Oh god, I never realized that Barbara got basically fridged. The implied SA and general humiliation of her always rubbed me the wrong way, but I never associated it with that trope for some reason. Killing Joke had some good moments, but the more time goes on, the more I agree with Alan Moore's take on it.
I think the author said he regretted the way Barbra was written, but someone else encouraged him to do that
I have no issue with it fridging is a stupid term
@@danse777macabre Yeah, I mean if it's well executed. People around the protagonist in general have tragedies happen to them regardless of gender, that's just how storytelling goes (when in doubt, ask Harvey Dent).
I kinda feel bad about Heath Ledger, he did such a legendary performance and people are starting to unjustly call it "edgy" or "overrated" because of mediocre copies of it and overall Joker fatigue...
The jonkler will never cease. Only jonk
We’re so back Jonkler bros
The Jonkler will outlive the Joker at this rate.
Only major issue I have with The Joker, is DC has a very bad habit of thinking he's the ONLY worthwhile Batman villain to explore.
Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing villain, but I like it when we see more love also given to characters like Two-Face, Ra's Al Ghul, Mr. Freeze, The Penguin, Riddler etc
Honestly I’m surprised people still hold Killing Joke in high regard considering most of its biggest moments have been undone. Barbara is batgirl again, batman never killed joker, joker’s origin has been tampered with constantly (thanks three jokers). I think that story’s canonizing has removed any impact it had before.
People remember it because most of the audience doesn't keep up with 20 years worth of comic lore (as they probably shouldn't?).
OP issues with the Killing Joke makes zero fathomable sense.
@@leithaziz2716 just 20? Batman has appeared in 8 thousand comics, 26 thousand if you count cameos or team books. Character has existed for 85 years I think it's humanly impossible to keep up with all of his lore, even in just the last 20 years a whole lot has been done for the character in terms of comics
Your not very smart.
@@Ay-xq7mjyou're*. You're not very smart either.
Does Joker even HAVE a character anymore? He feels almost flanderized to hell and back at this point!
That is; when it doesn’t feel like the writers aren’t just trying to make him into a Carnage ripoff.
Yeah like, why not use Victor Zsasz at that point?
"so Wanna play hardball, bats? do ya? Your call! Ha ha ha ha tickle tickle-"
The crap you talking about?
@@BiggestfanofGex It's a line from Batman Arkham Asylum
"OHHH YOU'RE RUINING MY BIG NIGHT!!!"
@@BiggestfanofGex You've never played Batman: Arkham Asylum?
Months of planning gone down the stinker!
Modern joker has given us some gems like Femboy joker, the Woker, Jonkler, the Arkham subreddit, society memes and officer balls, guy fawkes vs joker, the jokah baby, my electric car Bruce, Batjokes, why so serious beatbox meme, no laws against the Pokémon
Edit: sorry if this comment is cringe 💀
Don't forget that time he made a months worth joker C*M. And was going shoot it all over Gotham.
Wait. Is femboy joker the one in end game yourself squad? Or is that the woker?
@@somethingclever4297 I’m referring to the Darkseptor femboy joker videos btw 😅
Modern Joker also gave us pregnant joker (peak comic ofc)
Modern Joker gave us in the Spanish speaking side of Facebook the group of La Sociedad and its spoofs on the "iT's LiTerAlLy mE" crowd
Un saludo normal a la banda de La Sociedad!
Not mentioning Telltales take of the Joker in this vid is criminal bro
telltale's joker is a different take on the character and a breath of fresh air when it comes to depictions of joker, but that wouldn't really have any place in this video
You know is bad when Alan Moore himself regrets the creation of The Killing Joke
Pretty sure moore regrets a lot of his comic work lol
Alan moore hates everything tbh
Alan Moore seems to regret being Alan Moore lol
It's kind of sad how comics don't have a plot culmination point because of the status quo.
yet another Homunculus spewage from another indoctrinated dimwit.
I love jonklerspecters latest video on modern batman
What is instead of the joker he was called “the freakler” and instead of jonkeling he got *freaky* with Batman
this is just what happens off panel
I feel like what a lot of modern Joker stories forget that while he can be a threatening and downright scary, he's still a clown that's trying to be funny too. He's not someone to be taken too seriously, because the moment you try to delute the comedy of the character, you basically remove part of his very essence as an iconic villain.
I think one of the things I hate the most about how modern writers handle joker, is that they’re afraid to just let him lose.
For some reason, writers seem to hate the idea of joker getting his shit pushed in by Batman or any other hero, always trying to give him “the last laugh” and have him come out the other end as basically the winner.
No, joker can’t just effortlessly take control of the justice league. No, Batman wouldn’t just let joker kill dozens of people before coming in to stop him. And no, joker wasn’t right about one bad day or any of the messages he tried to push.
It’s like the writers can’t help but to glaze this guy to hell and back, when he’s supposed to be a putz who gets his shit pushed in by Batman all night. At the end of the day, he himself is supposed to be a joke.
Even though I'm a big Joker fan, I agree with the Joker fatigue. While he's the perfect foil for Batman, can we get big events that don't involve him at all? Or at least give us more smaller scale stories with him?
My personal take on the Joker is that he's an evil clown with a twisted sense of humor who acts as the usher for the costumed criminals, replacing the pre-established mobsters who ran Gotham until Batman showed up.
When it comes to the balance between goofy and edgy, I prefer him in an area around Jack Nicholson and The Killing Joke.
I feel like the Joker and Carnage are two great villains that each suffer from constant escalation and need to be brought back down to a smaller, more personal scale to reach their true storytelling potential.
The Joker should beatbox more better
@@valmid5069 agreed
AND THAT'S THE MAIN THING!! HEATH LEDGER JOKER WAS FUNNY ASF
I feel like you should do a deep dive into The New 52. A lot of issues post-52 seem to stem from this era of DC. But the most common one comes from the Batman-related comics.
Joker's Joker Juices are Jokering all the Non-Jokers
*batman voice* i recreated the joker juice you fell into that supposedly turned you into the joker, i took a bath in it and it didnt do shit. You were just looking for an excuse to act that way. Your gig is Up, Joker.
(proved to be the second most effective way to stop the joker from jokering.)
I think balancing him as a “joke” type character with his punchlines being brutal death should be somewhat like art the clown. Everything seems silly until your nose is being melted off by his flower.
Ross Al Ghul lmafoooo 💀
"We were on a BREAK, Detective!"
To me, the Arkham Joker is in my personal top 3 versions of the character. He is funny like the diniverse version of BTAS, but when he is angry, damn, he reminds me of joker from ledger, best from both worlds
I think calendar man was done well. His usage for the long Halloween was creative.
Not a lot of people like what it did for the character in the long run.
@@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 yeah I can see why now
@@mateushenriquepinheiro3197 That‘s the issue with comics, isn’t it? The second Someone makes a cool, interesting, dark reimagining of a character and it gets popular, it’s all anyone ever actually does with the character for the next twenty years
Now that you mentioned"the killing joke", people will want review! Hope this never happens. Because brave and the bold deserves more love.
I think another victim of 90s comic villain syndrome who didn't develop it till after the 90s is Dr. Light. I don't really know what he's like nowadays (Or if he's even around nowadays, IDK he could still be dead), but I do remember that ever since Identity Crisis, almost every subsequent appearance he's had since that comic always had him mentioning how much he loves r*ping people. It got so bad that I remember even Plastic Man commentated on it.
Isn't Dr. Light a villian in Teen Titans?
loved the dubbed comic sections, specially the 89' Batman laughing sfx
Modern Joker has the same problem of the evil Superman trope: it's overused and lazy most of the time
14:42 Deathshead is a recovering 90's comic villain syndrome survivor, although on batmans End I do remember them turning scarecrow into the scarebeast for a bit of that counts?
Another thing I would do is stop overusing him. I love the Joker, he's my favorite comic book villain but I'm so sick of him popping everywhere. We need like... 5 to 7 yeara of no Joker in comics or any adaptation, let other classic villains shine, create new ones, idk, but just give him a break.
Modern joker is if a emo kid became Jeff the killer in clown makeup
Reject modernity, Return to Cesar Romero.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Dark Knight Joker is a wonderful adaption of the Joker but he's written to be a master strategist because they needed to convey him as an equal to Batman within short 2 and a half hour run time. It's a condensed story. The problem is people saw that version of him and thought that this was how Joker was 24/7. Joker's not a villain sue. He's intelligent but he makes mistakes and is a victim of his own ego and nature.
Do people forget that the joker is a criminal mastermind and now a serial killer? His title is literally the clown prince Of crime
This also kinda feeds into why Batman's no kill rule gets so much flack online, just off what people say, it sounds like Joker keeps getting worse to the point where not killing him is getting hard and harder to justify. As Joker is the main thing people cite when criticizing it.
1:25 Joker's been WHAT?
I've gotta admit, I've gotten sick and tired of philosopher Joker. And as much as I have enjoyed Heath Ledger's portrayal, I think I'm leaning towards appreciating Nickolson's Mr. J more. But both are infinitely better than any modern portrayal.
I honestly have no problem with Modern Joker stories. I'd much rather have an Endgame or a Joker War, where stuff feel like they happen, over Detective Comics 1008, with the most cookie-cutter Joker story ever told.
My problem with Joker is that he's way overexposed. I just don't think Joker is an interesting enough villain to carry so many story arcs. That's a problem with BTAS, the Arkham games, Matt Reeve's Batman, and especially comics. I really like Zdarsky's current run, but I actually felt betrayed when they announced that they would be interrupting the cool Zur-en-Arrh storyline to spend the entirety of February on pointless Joker bullshit. Joker War honestly handled the Joker the best, by spending as little time on him as possible. And I really like the subsequent Joker solo book, but that's pretty much purely because it's NOT a Joker book. It's about Jim Gordon, and I'm pretty sure Bane's daughter has more screen time than old Joe Kerr.
Overall? The stories? Fine. These writers are great and know how to tell a good story. It's the frequency that really annoys me, use anybody else. Why did I have to wait until Penguin got his own show to get a cool story about him in the comics?
My biggest problem with joker is that every other villain does not get a single standalone story without joker coming in and he just ends up being the main villain. Also every other villain is just completely incapable of anything💀
It’s Gannon all over again
It seems like ever sense Heath Ledger's Joker in The Dark Knight, DC has been trying to one up that by having The Joker do more messed up things like cutting off his face for instant and that's before you get into the constant monologues that are getting really old really fast. If I'm being honest, I miss when The Joker was funny committing psychotic crimes while making jokes at the same time. It has honestly made me tired of not only Heath Ledger Joker but every single version of character that came after that.
Yeah I agree. Kinda wish Dark Knight never happened. Hell, we’d still have Heath with us.
I agree
@@Linklex7you do know Heath didn’t die because of the Joker role right?
I think it would be interesting if DC played with this, if the Joker just stopped doing anything gruesome and edgy in terms of crime but instead began pulling wacky schemes or pranks in the citizens of Gotham, he is still known for those horribly gruesome crimes but that is the fun of it! You expect him to do something messed up with you but he is just a silly guy throwing cream pies at people, everyone thinks they are poisoned or something but they are just regular pies.
He turns the murder clown vine back on it's head towards the silly side of clowns but everyone else is expecting some dark fucked up shit attached
I haven't finished the video yet but a big aspect of the 2 first jokers you mentioned: Joker is wrong! He tries to show Batman that the world is just as insane as he is, and the world proves him wrong! Gordon doesn't go insane, the ships don't explode! That is what makes Joker's relationship with Batman so good, he is wrong! People are good and can be good.
Edit: Finished the video, DCAU's Joker is a perfect example of him being so wrong that it costs him his life. He wanted to prove to Batman, and to himself, that his philosophy was right but he ISN'T
I feel that the easiest way to write Joker is to relate his violence and criminality to how comedy works; sometimes the humor is absurdist, sometimes it is only funny to the comedian, sometimes the jokes don't land, and sometimes they go too far. Joker is always experimenting with his "routine", always keeping everyone on their toes but he knows that "you can never beat the classics".
Also, the whole face thing should've been a Hush story. I mean CMON!
I think you kinda missed the point of Death of the Family. The whole arc is kinda similar to Killing Joke in that Joker tries his hardest to break and isolate an incorruptible individual, in this case Batman, but he thinks that by removing Bruce from his family, it will make him stronger and better foe. He sows a lot of distrust between Bruce and his family which they have to reconcile with throughout the story in order to defeat him. Joker's design and portrayal was moreso meant to show how truly desperate he was to get Batman back to his former and stronger self, resorting to asking Dollmaker to cut his face off. I think that a lot of bad things about modern Joker can be traced to this story but thats mostly because a lot of creative teams missed the whole Family part of Death of the Family.
The Jonkler memes are evidence enough lmao
The healthy balance of funny and scary is why I think Jim Carrey should have played the Joker. Looking at his Cable Guy performance. Yeah, he can do both.
He did play The Mask, and the simillarities are very obvious. His character just takes the Hijincks up to 11.
@@leithaziz2716 Aye, but I went with Cable Guy as it shows he can pull of intimidating and psychotic if he wants to. The Mask is more zany and silly. Definately Joker elements in there though. Another reason is he is one of the few people that can actually do that unnaturally wide smile and can drop it to scowl when needed.
In my opinion if joker is gonna be used in james gunn's new dcu he should be saved for a justice League movie where he joins the legion of doom.
David Howard Thornton should play him
Maybe it's just me but I'd rather go for either Riddler, Scarecrow or Bane in Legion of Doom. Joker's never worked well on a team.
Still like Lego Batman 2 though.
@@kendi5391 Riddler is a little to up his own ass (even more than lex is mind you) so I think the rest of the team would tolerate him less than they would Joker, Scarecrow, and bane.
@@powergoss0562 I guess. Still at most I'd just go for Scarecrow or Bane, but truth be told I'm not a big Joker fan so yeah.
Also it never made sense to me for Captain Cold to be a member of the team due to his moral code.
I personally prefer Scarecrow as Batman's counterpart, I feel that their story has many parallels and that both represent "fear" in a different way.
Joker is cool but honestly he's more like... this annoying kid who thinks he's more important than he is.
Scarecrow uses fear by a weapon and is ultimately ruled by fear. Batman uses it as a tool and rules fear.
If I was to cast Joker in Live Action I would 100% go for a comedian / comedic actor. Even if they couldn't act some "amazing deep emotions" that would make Joker even more uncanny! He's a psyhopath! Make him funny, cringy, laughing at his own jokes when others do that only out of fear, beause he is singing Abba songs while torturing you and making puns. Make him wear colorfull flashy clothes, he wants to stand out, he wants to be what everyone's attention is on! And it would be more imersive because in some itterations Joker used ot be a comedian before turning crazy, so there would be the same dissonance for us, the audience, that the citizens of Gotham had. The whole idea of killer clown is based on the contrast between joyfull atmosphere those entertainers are suppose to bring with Joker's terrible actions, his guns and gadgets looking like toys etc. It's suppose to be more than just a makeup on a mafia boss!
As someone who is a big fan of Batman Wayne Family Adventures the start of season 3 really irked me with Joker taking over the story and other villains hyping him up "he's a wildfire you can't negotiate with a wild fire" really rolled my eyes at that
As the story goes they're still trying to catch the Joker but course corrected and returned the focus to what the people wanted from WFA the relationships of the Batfamily
I do hate how people miss that heath is funny, every other joker after is either ironically funny or a philosopher. Harley Quinn somehow has a good joker, plus joker can be scary but the thing is whatever joker does joker needs to have something humorous to gain, when you think about his actions they could be misconstrued as comedic, unless he’s going out of his way not to be. Like say blowing up a hospital just to turn a city against Batman is kinda funny when you think that he single handedly ruined more lives in a day than Batman saved in 2 years
I agree that Heaths Joker is fantastic. But imo, he's not really the Joker, he's something else rather than the Joker. Something great, but something else nonetheless.
I feel a lot of his core is very much the Joker especially the Golden Age and Bronze/Modern era
His main scheme/plot is from Killing Joke
His mannerisms is more like the original Joker: a cold, calculating deadpan criminal
Disguising himself as a cop was from his first issue
His relationship with Batman
Killing cops, judge rich people and politicians by announcing his crimes before they happen and committing them anyway
He was very much the Joker in a more real world elements
Hes all about nihilism and anarchy which is kinda what joker is about but those traits have never really been his whole sctick like the ledger verson
@ Killing Joke and No Man’s Land (where he kidnaps all the babies in Gotham on New Years as a way to steal hope before killing Jim Gordon’s wife, also Dark Knight using the plot of switching the cops/hostages with his henchmen and other cops almost killed them), Gotham Central (Joker being a sniper and sending messages), etc had Joker doing themes of anarchism and chaos even before Dark Knight. Yes, Dark Knight emphasized those points, but there were multiple comics that took those themes before that
@@RainMakeR_Workshop I always felt like he was mixture of Joker and Riddler.
@@billyboleson2830 joker is not an anarchist lil bro
20:51 That caught me off guard lmaooo
You basically articulated my issues with the the joker very well. What made him so good was not only was he Batman’s complete opposite but he was a genuine wild card. You never knew what he’d do and sometimes there was no reason other than it was funny to him. Now it’s all about a deep message about society. Stories like the one at 19:30 rarely if ever happen. Not to mention the DCAU handle him perfectly. One min he’s funny laughing with dark humor without a care in the world then the next he gets scary, really scary. Sometimes the terror comes from one joke hitting you to close to home and sometimes it’s when he stops laughing, and moments like that let you know even when he’s being light hearted in the moment, he’s still a monster. But that’s the problem, dc is so concerned about “society” message they forget he’s Realy is a monster, a very unpredictable monster.
Excellent.
I wanna point out another well-known fundamental issue too: one comic Joker'll threaten to poison the town or torture dozens of innocents, but Batman and the justice system chucks him into Arkham and he walks out the next day and repeats. Batman's "no killing" (or at least critically injure) rule becomes hypocritical when he's indirectly killing hordes of new victims every new story.
The way I'd milk this (because make no mistake, both hero and villain are just edgy teen wet dreams and there's no fixing that, we only milk it) is have Bat come up with more "permanent solutions". Maybe he cripples the Joker in one arc (don't worry, he'll get better eventually) and he has to concoct next plans only using his mind like some anti-Oracle (who we should also bring in for strong parallels). Maybe Joker DOES get executed at some point or shipped to a high security facility proving the prison and justice system is not a complete joke. 'fcourse these stories still run on "ivincible serial killer edgy teen wet dream" vibes.
Jerome and Jeremiah from Gotham are ao underrated cuz they were never named Joker.
I loved Jeremiah’s Joker especially
No, they were named the Giggler and Chuckler since Warner wouldn't let them use Jonkler
Let them be underrated , we don't want them to be ruined..
I always like to think the joker only really does things if he sees the potential for a really ironic joke that batman or whoever else it is will get years down the line
Jokers never really appealed to me. I like his characterization in Serious House on Serious Earth but beyond that he doesn't do it for me. I love Penguin, Man-Bat, Batmite, and plenty of other Bat-Foils. I think Ras should be Bruces greatest foe. But Joker, Riddler, and the Court of Owls all have a hard time connecting with me.
I want a return to batman 66, just have some fun again. Not as a mainstay but be nice to have multiple takes on batman and joker again instead of having to do the same gritty origin story for another 50 times.
I also hate how the bat family are exiled from movie adaptations.
On the topic of the video, I agree its tiring how they keep making Joker into this edgy horror clown man.
My favorite jokers are the ones who just likes chaos. Not meant to be the "Society" meme but like BTAS type or the Arkham Asylum version. Someone that doesn't need redemption. Pre-Killing joke would be awesome again.
I like Heath Ledger’s Joker, but I do agree that’s what started this horrible trend with Joker. Modern Joker just exists for shock value and nothing else. He needs to be toned down. He doesn’t need to be Cesar Romero (though still a GOAT) but he can’t also be the same Joker skinning people alive, SA’ing women in the backseat of cars, poisoning Boy Scouts, and ripping the limbs off infant babies. It’s sick. I promise you tone down Joker, fans will shut up about Batman’s No-Kill rule. People only bring that up when it comes to Joker. Never, Penguin, Riddler, Mr Freeze, or Two-Face. The 90’s cartoon had the right balance when it came to Joker.
The problem with modern Joker is that they've effectively made him into something he's not. Joker is a supervillain. What he's not is a slasher movie antagonist. And personally, it started...with Ledger's Joker. Yes, he's great, but that was the gasoline that started the inferno and that's largely because Nolan was so obsessed with realism. Ledger was, for my money, excellent...but not remotely as ideal as people claim. He's not nearly funny enough and, that's the thing. What makes Joker interesting is that he IS twistedly funny, charismatic, and insane. Now, on film, he's often just portrayed as looking like a meth addict and depicted as just a serial killer. He's now ripping people's faces off and wearing them. I mean, come on. Yes, Joker is a killer, but to relegate him to JUST a killer is to limit him. He's also a criminal mastermind, a clown, a comedian, and utterly insane. The clown side of the Joker seems to have been nearly forgotten, and, frankly, I blame that on film directors being OBSESSED with making "dark realistic" Batman projects that seem to almost resent the source material coming from comic books. I'm all for Joker pushing the limits, but I don't think darkly mature means he CAN'T be funny and charismatic at the same time. One of the scariest things about Joker is that he IS funny. He's murderous...AND he finds it FUNNY. That's messed up. Now it's just edgelord stuff. Absolutely shock value, agreed entirely, but it's like...Joker isn't Leatherface. Stop focusing so heavily on the homicidal and "scary" aspects of Joker, start making it feel organic when he kills. The most recent Joker I loved was the Arkham Games Joker, a version that's still lethal... but retains humor, gags, and remains a criminal before a serial killer. And this, by proxy, spread like the black plague to ALL Batman villains. Case in point: Look at what Matt Reeve's did to Riddler. It's not the Riddler, it's the Zodiac Killer. It's as if writers today don't seem to even understand that in order to make a mature threat from these characters, you don't have to devolve them into edgelord slasher territory. He could have easily still kept the charismatic game show host mentality of Edward Nigma; he could still kill people and be a real threat; the story could still be mature...but no, just make it Zodiac. It's not even the same character. Might be the same shtick...but isn't the same personality of the Riddler. It's time we bring Batman villains BACK to being the best SUPERVILLAINS of all-time...and not deminished to just one-dimensional slash movie monsters. At this rate...I half expect Riddler or Joker to just eat babies...and they call it "realistic and mature."
The idea of joker having a sad backstory works pretty good for me. The parts I don’t like are when they try to get all philosophical and deep, to me the joker is just a weirdo who enjoys chaos and torment and does random insane things…. Not all just horrific gruesome murders but have the joker do something weird like mess with people’s plumbing and vandalize public property. Have him cause goofy random chaos that’s what I like about joker
People talk about "Batgod" when Batman is too powerful and compotent which makes him less interesting.
But people don't tend to talk about Joker in the same way, even though I'd argue it is a similar problem. at the end of the day both are supposed to be characters that lack superpowers. And when a non-powerd criminal clown is able to thren the lives of everyone on the east coast on an almost weekly basis it's not surprising anymore.
And it makes the reader question where the justice league is in all these events? ̶i̶s̶ ̶B̶a̶t̶m̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶t̶u̶p̶i̶d̶?̶
As a Nu52 Batman glazer I'll pitch in my two cents on the Joker as portrayed in that run, as in, he's a total fraud. Every time he appears he gets defeated by Batman calling his bluff, and poking holes in much vaunted philosophiy (same in the Dark Knight too, the people on the boats refuse to sink to his level). You said him cutting his face off was incredibly superficial? That's the point! His character in the Snyder run is completely centered around the fact that he can't cope with being "just" a mass murdering psycho, so he tries *really* hard to be this idea of being the embodiment of chaos (explicitly in Endgame when he claims to be the pale man, which Batman utterly calls his bluff on). I do agree with the criticisms about him not being funny, like at all. Scott Snyder is talented, except when it comes to writing funny dialogue for the Jonkler in particular (his Bruce and Dick are decently funny imo).
I'll take your word for it that this was all written intentionally and not a hidden meaning that was totally there from the jump from the author's gigamind and not headcanon cope made by a fan. But even with all this in mind. That still just sounds really boring compared to other takes on the Joker we've gotten in the past.
You don't have to take my word for it, it's literally in the story just short of the narration being "Wow, crazy how Batman finds fulfillment in helping others while the Joker has to come up with complex schemes just to remain a miserable asshole"
If it doesn't sound like your cup of tea that's fair enough, even as a fan of those stories I have some issues with them (that whole thing with the JLA getting jokerized was fucking stupid for example)
I remember back to when Joker scolded Harley about ruining the punchline. He got so upset at Harley, he threw her out a window. To Joker, it’s more than just a violent slaughter and being edgy. I like how he has a good mix of humor and being terrifying.
Personally, Jared Leto was what made me lose interest in Joker. The Damaged tattoo screams edgy 15 year-old that thinks Hazbin Hotel and South Park are philosophical. And the Suicide Squad game’s Joker is just as terrible. A unneeded DLC for a game that embodies edginess and plot armor.
Harley Quinn Animated Series’s Joker is the same, and more annoying. Pretty much everyone is dumbed down to boost Harley and Ivy. Major plot armor. I only watch the series for Bane.
I realized Joker has been done to death after playing Arkham Knight. I thought it would main Scarecrow, but each Arkham game goes straight back to Joker. I can understand the ongoing story between the two, it’s kinda annoying. Rocksteady hyped up these villains, just for it to be Joker.
Lego Joker is probably the only exception for it being just completely goofy. It’s a Lego movie, it’s not meant to be serious, and it was funny. He’s not really scary, just a pestering menace to Batman.
Joker is Batman’s #1 rival, so I think his appearances should limit for something major, that actually involves and requires Joker to be in it. I can’t really say get rid of Joker.