Come join us for a game you don't need to own the game to play with us! join the link: discord.gg/6qHtKcNknR We are a community that holds events for US, Asia and Australian Hellish quart players beginners and experienced
The game portrays characters, specific people with a background and a training, which means that they have to have a limited skillset instead of being walking treatises on fencing. I think this is totally plausible and not in conflict with the realism, it is simply that the characters only know how to fence that way
Hellish Quart is realistic where it matters, and that's why I have 215 hours on it so far. It's always great to hear an expert not only give something (in their field of expertise) its due praise, but also explain their reasoning in ways non-experts can understand. An interview well done.
Timestamps: 1:05: is Fokos realistic in Hellish Quart? 4:05 Russ Mitchell's favourite game mode 5:00 Lazlo's guard and style explained 7:54 the consequences of bringing realism in gaming 11:38 Quest asks how blocking could be more realistic in Hellish Quart 13:30 what does Russ mitchell think of how angled attacks are represented in HQ
Very interesting Ben. I completely agree with Russ when it pertains to game balance vs realism. A fully hyper realistic game probably wouldn't be too much fun, and the same could be said about any game that tries to represent some sort of realism. The first and foremost concern for a video game, should be whether or not the game is enjoyable.
i agree. The extent of how much much realism should be traded off for fun is a debated issue in the Hellish Quart world and in other sim-like games. I don't normally play sims because i just want fun in a game but HQ largely achieves both of these for me
Yeah I agree. Realism is what sets it apart from certain other games but there are points where simplified mechanics (e.g LG) are needed for player enjoyment. If autoblock guarded everything without any input on the part of the player cuts and thrusts included it would be a problem. Its good that the player has a button for thrusts they can switch to even if sticking the point out is not always the optimal response to every thrust from a realism perspective. (That said, autoblock can block thrusts too, its just not as reliable and that is fine. I also think the autoblock as a feature is needed otherwise most players if not all given input delay would have no chance of reacting in time)
@@Subutai_Khan Thanks for watching. I agree with autoblock being necessary but im open to the idea of additional autoblocks like LG that perhaps partially defend, fully defend and don't defend depending on the attack type
@Questtv4981 If a good middle ground can be achieved, then some games are all the better for it. There definitely are some realistic aspect to this game, as it relates to dueling. But it's a nice balance.
9:17 I've been saying this for years; while some realism can improve a game, games don't have to be realistic, only have to feel right. I always give the example of the jump in the original Mario, Castlevania and Megaman games. By far, the jump in Castlevania is the most realistic, you jump, you're committed to the jump and whatever happens, happens, while the least realistic is Megaman's, where you can move left or right during the duration of the jump (while Mario's is an in between); but which one feels the best? The least realistic one, because it gives the most control and feels the most intuitive, while the worst is the most realistic one, half of the difficulty of the original Castlevania games are the unforgiving controls.
I am utterly biased, but I would say that it is the point weapons that have suffered the most from the, I admit, completely necessary simplification. As the Marie currently stands I am stuck with Swetnam level rapier where my two strategies are 1) "my weapon is longer than yours" and 2) "I can thrust in opposition", without being able to do anything as foundational to Italian rapier as a disengagement in time, parry transfer to the left hand, or a riposte with control of their weapon. Isabella meanwhile suffers from an inability to use several basic tools of the Spanish school such as the zuhexion (subjugation), desvio (stepping out of the way and allowing your opponent to impale themselves, which is what the Spanish do instead of parrying), and accometimiento (an attack made to provoke a response so that you can then fluidly move to attack in a different line). Beyond this, Marie, Isabella, and any character who uses a guard where the point in extended is missing out on about 90% of the complexity of what happens when two blades cross. In Hellish Quart you can find their blade and if it is extended you can beat... and that's it. In real life, you can do those things, change the engagement (circularly or laterally), feint (inline or offline; by disengagement, in opposition, by coupé, etc.), expulse, transport, envelope, deny the engagement all together, or any combination of the above.
This is unbelievable to me. The amount of pros that, when asked to review a game, treat it as a challenge is just overwhelming -- "lets see if these game creators are worth my approval" instead of actually reviewing a game -- its so ignorant and shallow that it makes me want to fall into a decade-long coma and die of poisoning as soon as i wake up For someone to not be a game designer but to still be so insightful, genuinely logical about the entire aspect of art being included in a video game is more than a breath of fresh air. Like going from the filthiest slums during the black plague to being instantly transported to icy river mountains in the most remote-from-civilization part of the world, kind of fresh air. He focuses on what the game intends to do and the implications of what is included and excluded in order to maintain balance in the design, what he respects about mechanical points-of-interest and what purpose the game serves in the world of 'fencing representation' Finally someone who is of high standing in an artform who simultaneously is a person you could actually desire to hang around.. completely unheard of (there are a few pros i like but the ratio of those kinds to the detestable kinds is basically 'man with pitchfork versus ragnarok'
i agree he makes a good guest for this topic because he is able to look at it from both the gamer and fencer point of views. If you have any questions for russ let me know and ill ask him next time. We also have more clips of him on this channel to check out
interesting. I wish that he talked a bit more on what determines preferred guards. An obvious example would be Marta vs Marie, but these two are probably not his field of experience. I would wonder however what he has to say about Samuel vs Alexander...
@@Questtv4981 Wow. In that case, please ask him on what he can tell us about the different guard positions of Alexander and Samuel. I forgot the name of the big guy, but he has a similar guard to Alexander. Both don't look that practical to me, or rather would make me feel very vulnerable...
@@Questtv4981 Please allow me to rephrase it (I'm now on my PC): Gedeon and Alexander have IMHO a weird guard stance (compared to Samuel) that seems to make them vulnerable, thus I'd like to hear from him why you would want to take such a stance and how the saber type affects it...
If you want a game that does the "warhammer 40,000" thing (not really how WH40K behaves but that's beside the point) really well, look up Toribash. It's mostly about unarmed combat, but there are various weapon-based "mods" (rulesets) built into the game, and you can customise them or create your own and it's far more realistic in its damage model and the freeform nature of your character control than any other game ever. But the compromises for that accomplishment (which was achieved 17 years ago, btw) mean that the learning curve is so steep that the skill gap between a new player and a veteran is literally on par with the skill gap between a professional MMA fighter or Olympic-level fencer and a literal 6 month old baby who doesn't even know how to walk yet.
im extremely glad you point this out i absolutely love Toribash and wish more people knew about it though, due to its design, you do have to be a rocket scientist, a nuclear physicist, and a vampire in order to take advantage of all the possible options in the game in a competitive setting it makes sense that its not many peoples' preferred game, but good god is it cool it also makes me really glad that YOMI Hustle exists because its like the only addition to a genre that only Toribash has greatly explored (to my knowledge)
@@honk1419 There are a *VERY* small number of games which can reasonably be considered turn based fighting games, and an even smaller number which behave anything like Toribash in how they achieve it. It's not quite alone, but it's had a lot more time than any other project to perfect its style of gameplay. And yeah, it's definitely a shame it's not better known, because as much as "no this isn't for everyone" is true, there's a lot of people who have no clue it exists and would love it if they knew (I've introduced many people to it who have had this reaction).
Yeh same. In my last Russ Mitchell one i posted we went over which weapons he would like to see i want Kubold's response to that.th-cam.com/video/ar2XIBWcsHQ/w-d-xo.html
I think this is the major problem with the video game. It is not you. You have input lag with mouse and keyboard or with the controller! More than that it is hard to perceive where things are, but with the body a sword cut can be more intuitively defended. Especially here, because of the perspective, all the movements must be intelligible from the side on, which to be fair is pretty good and better than first person...
Come join us for a game you don't need to own the game to play with us! join the link: discord.gg/6qHtKcNknR We are a community that holds events for US, Asia and Australian Hellish quart players beginners and experienced
The game portrays characters, specific people with a background and a training, which means that they have to have a limited skillset instead of being walking treatises on fencing. I think this is totally plausible and not in conflict with the realism, it is simply that the characters only know how to fence that way
That's a good point
Hellish Quart is realistic where it matters, and that's why I have 215 hours on it so far. It's always great to hear an expert not only give something (in their field of expertise) its due praise, but also explain their reasoning in ways non-experts can understand. An interview well done.
Thanks for the support there is more Russ Mitchell content to be released soon!
Timestamps:
1:05: is Fokos realistic in Hellish Quart?
4:05 Russ Mitchell's favourite game mode
5:00 Lazlo's guard and style explained
7:54 the consequences of bringing realism in gaming
11:38 Quest asks how blocking could be more realistic in Hellish Quart
13:30 what does Russ mitchell think of how angled attacks are represented in HQ
Very interesting Ben.
I completely agree with Russ when it pertains to game balance vs realism. A fully hyper realistic game probably wouldn't be too much fun, and the same could be said about any game that tries to represent some sort of realism.
The first and foremost concern for a video game, should be whether or not the game is enjoyable.
i agree. The extent of how much much realism should be traded off for fun is a debated issue in the Hellish Quart world and in other sim-like games.
I don't normally play sims because i just want fun in a game but HQ largely achieves both of these for me
Yeah I agree. Realism is what sets it apart from certain other games but there are points where simplified mechanics (e.g LG) are needed for player enjoyment. If autoblock guarded everything without any input on the part of the player cuts and thrusts included it would be a problem. Its good that the player has a button for thrusts they can switch to even if sticking the point out is not always the optimal response to every thrust from a realism perspective. (That said, autoblock can block thrusts too, its just not as reliable and that is fine. I also think the autoblock as a feature is needed otherwise most players if not all given input delay would have no chance of reacting in time)
@@Subutai_Khan Thanks for watching. I agree with autoblock being necessary but im open to the idea of additional autoblocks like LG that perhaps partially defend, fully defend and don't defend depending on the attack type
@Questtv4981 If a good middle ground can be achieved, then some games are all the better for it.
There definitely are some realistic aspect to this game, as it relates to dueling. But it's a nice balance.
This was a great listen! Thanks for doing this to both!
Thanks for the comment Russ's input is a great addition to this channel and there are more Russ vids to come soon
Good interview, Mr. Mitchell shared some really nice insights. Thanks Quest.
Thanks for the support. Ill have more clips coming out with Russ over the next few weeks!
9:17
I've been saying this for years; while some realism can improve a game, games don't have to be realistic, only have to feel right.
I always give the example of the jump in the original Mario, Castlevania and Megaman games. By far, the jump in Castlevania is the most realistic, you jump, you're committed to the jump and whatever happens, happens, while the least realistic is Megaman's, where you can move left or right during the duration of the jump (while Mario's is an in between); but which one feels the best? The least realistic one, because it gives the most control and feels the most intuitive, while the worst is the most realistic one, half of the difficulty of the original Castlevania games are the unforgiving controls.
I am utterly biased, but I would say that it is the point weapons that have suffered the most from the, I admit, completely necessary simplification. As the Marie currently stands I am stuck with Swetnam level rapier where my two strategies are 1) "my weapon is longer than yours" and 2) "I can thrust in opposition", without being able to do anything as foundational to Italian rapier as a disengagement in time, parry transfer to the left hand, or a riposte with control of their weapon. Isabella meanwhile suffers from an inability to use several basic tools of the Spanish school such as the zuhexion (subjugation), desvio (stepping out of the way and allowing your opponent to impale themselves, which is what the Spanish do instead of parrying), and accometimiento (an attack made to provoke a response so that you can then fluidly move to attack in a different line). Beyond this, Marie, Isabella, and any character who uses a guard where the point in extended is missing out on about 90% of the complexity of what happens when two blades cross. In Hellish Quart you can find their blade and if it is extended you can beat... and that's it. In real life, you can do those things, change the engagement (circularly or laterally), feint (inline or offline; by disengagement, in opposition, by coupé, etc.), expulse, transport, envelope, deny the engagement all together, or any combination of the above.
Thanks for the comment it will be interesting if any of these elements get added as the game is still in pre access
This is unbelievable to me.
The amount of pros that, when asked to review a game, treat it as a challenge is just overwhelming -- "lets see if these game creators are worth my approval" instead of actually reviewing a game -- its so ignorant and shallow that it makes me want to fall into a decade-long coma and die of poisoning as soon as i wake up
For someone to not be a game designer but to still be so insightful, genuinely logical about the entire aspect of art being included in a video game is more than a breath of fresh air.
Like going from the filthiest slums during the black plague to being instantly transported to icy river mountains in the most remote-from-civilization part of the world, kind of fresh air.
He focuses on what the game intends to do and the implications of what is included and excluded in order to maintain balance in the design, what he respects about mechanical points-of-interest and what purpose the game serves in the world of 'fencing representation'
Finally someone who is of high standing in an artform who simultaneously is a person you could actually desire to hang around.. completely unheard of
(there are a few pros i like but the ratio of those kinds to the detestable kinds is basically 'man with pitchfork versus ragnarok'
i agree he makes a good guest for this topic because he is able to look at it from both the gamer and fencer point of views. If you have any questions for russ let me know and ill ask him next time. We also have more clips of him on this channel to check out
interesting. I wish that he talked a bit more on what determines preferred guards.
An obvious example would be Marta vs Marie, but these two are probably not his field of experience.
I would wonder however what he has to say about Samuel vs Alexander...
i get what you're saying if you can put in a single sentence question i could ask him next time and credit you for the question
@@Questtv4981 Wow. In that case, please ask him on what he can tell us about the different guard positions of Alexander and Samuel.
I forgot the name of the big guy, but he has a similar guard to Alexander. Both don't look that practical to me, or rather would make me feel very vulnerable...
@@Questtv4981 Please allow me to rephrase it (I'm now on my PC):
Gedeon and Alexander have IMHO a weird guard stance (compared to Samuel) that seems to make them vulnerable, thus I'd like to hear from him why you would want to take such a stance and how the saber type affects it...
@@edi9892 awesome
Leave a comment! Is Hellish Quart realistic? All comments will be read!
I would like to learn more about how real life fencing fundamentals and techniques apply to Hellish Quart.
at some point ill get him back on i have some more Russ content coming out though
Nice video
thanks for the support we have others with Russ as well check them out!
If you want a game that does the "warhammer 40,000" thing (not really how WH40K behaves but that's beside the point) really well, look up Toribash. It's mostly about unarmed combat, but there are various weapon-based "mods" (rulesets) built into the game, and you can customise them or create your own and it's far more realistic in its damage model and the freeform nature of your character control than any other game ever. But the compromises for that accomplishment (which was achieved 17 years ago, btw) mean that the learning curve is so steep that the skill gap between a new player and a veteran is literally on par with the skill gap between a professional MMA fighter or Olympic-level fencer and a literal 6 month old baby who doesn't even know how to walk yet.
im extremely glad you point this out
i absolutely love Toribash and wish more people knew about it
though, due to its design,
you do have to be a rocket scientist, a nuclear physicist, and a vampire in order to take advantage of all the possible options in the game in a competitive setting
it makes sense that its not many peoples' preferred game, but good god is it cool
it also makes me really glad that YOMI Hustle exists because its like the only addition to a genre that only Toribash has greatly explored (to my knowledge)
@@honk1419 There are a *VERY* small number of games which can reasonably be considered turn based fighting games, and an even smaller number which behave anything like Toribash in how they achieve it. It's not quite alone, but it's had a lot more time than any other project to perfect its style of gameplay.
And yeah, it's definitely a shame it's not better known, because as much as "no this isn't for everyone" is true, there's a lot of people who have no clue it exists and would love it if they knew (I've introduced many people to it who have had this reaction).
Wish kublod would see this.
Yeh same. In my last Russ Mitchell one i posted we went over which weapons he would like to see i want Kubold's response to that.th-cam.com/video/ar2XIBWcsHQ/w-d-xo.html
I think this is the major problem with the video game. It is not you. You have input lag with mouse and keyboard or with the controller! More than that it is hard to perceive where things are, but with the body a sword cut can be more intuitively defended.
Especially here, because of the perspective, all the movements must be intelligible from the side on, which to be fair is pretty good and better than first person...