Italian Rapier vs Sports Epee | HEMA vs Sport fencing | Weapon Confrontations - part 1

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
  • These are Weapon Confrontations: Rapier vs Epee.
    EPEE: Marta Sokół (Mordschlag Łódź)
    RAPIER: Rafał Kalus (Akademia Szermierzy)
    Cooperation: Akademia Szermierzy & Mordschlag Łódź
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ความคิดเห็น • 1.1K

  • @loganwolfram4216
    @loganwolfram4216 ปีที่แล้ว +1928

    "It's not the weapon, but the skill and tactics of the warrior who holds it"
    - Spear has entered the room -

    • @IanSumallo
      @IanSumallo ปีที่แล้ว +56

      * Blood Bath Ensues *

    • @killerkraut9179
      @killerkraut9179 ปีที่แล้ว +54

      When a Longsworder uses Halfswording techinques then he have not so a tiny chance !
      A shield guy have often a big chance against a spear guy !

    • @Druid_Ignacy
      @Druid_Ignacy ปีที่แล้ว +7

      The did tested that, an sometimes were able to stand a chance :)

    • @joe125ful
      @joe125ful ปีที่แล้ว +23

      Spear is pure no skill weapon:)

    • @loganwolfram4216
      @loganwolfram4216 ปีที่แล้ว +82

      @@joe125ful indeed, none of that barbaric, filthy "skill" and "experience" nonsense the sword people and the axe people and the knife people are always going on about. Spear is truly a pure weapon, a weapon of culture. One has only to stab, God will decide the victor, as is correct and just.

  • @johnwurfel2862
    @johnwurfel2862 ปีที่แล้ว +60

    Removing one sword's ability to wound/kill with cuts so another sword is not disadvantaged may be useful in training, but is not a fair representation of each tool's capabilities. Great job to these highly skilled fencers.

    • @tenpennygrim5884
      @tenpennygrim5884 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

      I felt in several of the clashes the rapier would have been more functional once cuts, grappling and even bashing the opponent in the face with the hand-guard were in range.
      The epee is only superior in the initial thrust. Everything after that favors the rapier.

  • @eddys.3524
    @eddys.3524 ปีที่แล้ว +643

    I was quite impressed by Marta's speed and parries.. Speed due to the lightweight epee, but parries due to a lot of training. I understand onty thrusts were allowed, but that also took away the Rapiers advantage in the cutting department, which the epee totally misses.

    • @FeniksGaming
      @FeniksGaming ปีที่แล้ว +83

      Yeah it was a weird choice if we comparing weapons effectiveness every hit is important. In a first minute of a fight it would be over as rapier cut her head open and she would lose a vision due to blood in her eyes. You can't compare weapon effectiveness by removing half of the weapon abilities with arbitrary rules.

    • @michaelhenter2856
      @michaelhenter2856 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      @@FeniksGaming that's exactly right. My thoughts on that.

    • @dragonfell5078
      @dragonfell5078 ปีที่แล้ว +28

      @@FeniksGaming Yeah, cutting is prevalent in Italian fencing too so I find it a bit weird that they limit it to thrusts only.
      Destreza incorporates even more cuts into their work, moreso than Italian rapier. It's a really interesting style and sadly not covered a whole lot

    • @deathridesabike5619
      @deathridesabike5619 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      Epee was also based on the rapier it just uses a different form of fencing which is French, who prioritizes the thrust because that's what the rapier does best

    • @argos-ir7zn
      @argos-ir7zn ปีที่แล้ว +1

      to play to touch eppe ligth weigth is a advantage in real figth is the opposite,more weight make more powerful trusth and slash,eppe is only to sport or nobility stupid honor games, rapier is a war weapon

  • @LancelotChan
    @LancelotChan ปีที่แล้ว +287

    I'm very impressed by Marta, who was shorter than Rafal and was using a shorter sword. That was a HUGE disadvantage she was fighting against and she did well!

    • @Druid_Ignacy
      @Druid_Ignacy ปีที่แล้ว +16

      Exactly! Precision and technique does matter, doesn't it? :)

    • @zoroverse8358
      @zoroverse8358 ปีที่แล้ว +72

      She was absolutely at a huge advantage. Only counting thrusts and epee being so much lighter gave her the upper hand.

    • @Jetcom10
      @Jetcom10 ปีที่แล้ว +17

      Smaller fencers are actually more deadly, they present less targets and can more easily defend their bodies than larger opponents.

    • @zoroverse8358
      @zoroverse8358 ปีที่แล้ว +27

      @@Jetcom10 But lenth gives reach. So i guess long arms are good.

    • @im2randomghgh
      @im2randomghgh ปีที่แล้ว +3

      And without much option to circle him and work the angles, since his art would have much more training in lateral movement than hers!

  • @ijuvatar
    @ijuvatar ปีที่แล้ว +222

    the most interesting takeaway for me is:
    1. in historical fencing duels both parties must have bled afterwards (at least)
    2. reenactment goes only so far in points of realism since the fear of death is completely removed out of the equation

    • @cosc_HEMA
      @cosc_HEMA ปีที่แล้ว +35

      Both points are true, however, there's quite a few accounts of people in history not being afraid to die. And then dying.

    • @ThatHabsburgMapGuy
      @ThatHabsburgMapGuy ปีที่แล้ว +20

      I recall a statistic from a quantitative study of French duels, and something like a fifth of sword duels ended in the death of at least one of the combattants. I don't have the study though so take this data point with a grain of salt. Btw the death rates in duels actually went down considerably when gun duels were adopted.

    • @JonFrumTheFirst
      @JonFrumTheFirst ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Given the number of references to fencing scars I've seen in non-fiction literature, I assume that #1 is correct.

    • @albertbresca8904
      @albertbresca8904 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      i remember reading about a fencing duel between 2 masters in epee.. they dueled (without masks) for hours without drawing blood and eventually stopped as one of them got a blister.... don't know if it is true or not though...

    • @k.v.7681
      @k.v.7681 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      @@ThatHabsburgMapGuy Historian Jean-Claude Chesnais estimates duels in France in the early 19th century were deadly for at least one of the involved parties in one case out of three for civillians, and one out of four when it was amongst soldiers (mostly officers). (Histoire de la violence, Paris, Hachette, 1978, p. 126.).
      He bases those claims on reports from the ministry of justice we still have today, and personal correspondance. (Duelling was illegal, so it was hush hush and hard to estimate. The reason for using epistolary reports is that the army kept the ministry of justice at bay when it came to managing that matter in the army).

  • @Wolfharth
    @Wolfharth ปีที่แล้ว +58

    Definitely handicapped the rapier by not allowing cuts.

    • @killerkraut9179
      @killerkraut9179 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      but this rapier looks not much like a good cuter !
      Then a broader Joachim Meyer rapier would maybe be better !

    • @_claymore
      @_claymore ปีที่แล้ว +8

      @@killerkraut9179 the very first hit in the duel was a cut to the forehead. yes it wouldn't a be a fight ending cut, but it surely would open the skin and cause bleeding, which could be extremely hindering if unlucky - blood running into the eye(s).
      you don't necessarily need to cut very deep, to cause issues to your opponent - tendons and ligaments, even when cut only lightly, can cause massive problems.
      limiting the rapier to thrusts only, is definitely a handicap to it, without giving the epee a similar handicap, which seems rather weird if the goal is to test two different weapons with different techniques against each other.

    • @killerkraut9179
      @killerkraut9179 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@_claymore Depends on the Rapier some can relativly descent cut some cant do cuts
      !
      Clothing culd be a factor
      If you are lucky to make week cu efective but often do they closely to nothing ,like seen by Holmgang hamburg !
      To be fatal or manstopping you maybe need more cutting power !
      If you make a sparring with rapier against a real cutting weapon rapier cuts should score less !

    • @radivojevasiljevic3145
      @radivojevasiljevic3145 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@killerkraut9179 Cut to head or neck, while maybe not fatal per se would wound person enough that stabbing would be very easy. Nobody sane would try rapier fight with just swimming style eye protection and risk hit in a head from blunt sword which is, by the way, poor cutter. Ask yourself, why?

    • @killerkraut9179
      @killerkraut9179 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@radivojevasiljevic3145 I think Holmgang Hamburg risk maybe much ?

  • @gabem3251
    @gabem3251 ปีที่แล้ว +81

    This was pretty interesting, I’ve always wondered how a match would work out. I was surprised at how many parries were possible with an epee against a rapier. The rapier had advantages in reach and using the off hand to parry, which made it difficult to thrust on the inside. Though at the same time it’s possible to work around those with proper timing + feints. Interested to see further videos.

    • @markuskoivisto
      @markuskoivisto ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Yeah an epee is still steel so it parties fine. The thing that struck me last I did this was just how much faster you can disengage with an epee.

    • @stivostenberg
      @stivostenberg ปีที่แล้ว +7

      Epee can parry a thrust. Parry a cut would show the difference weight makes.

    • @IPMunteanu
      @IPMunteanu ปีที่แล้ว

      Beautiful!

    • @0th_Law
      @0th_Law ปีที่แล้ว

      To be fair, the rapier doesn't inherently allow for more off-hand parrying than the epee, it's just that those sorts of techniques have become significantly less prominent over the years.

    • @kellymurphy1098
      @kellymurphy1098 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I found it interesting that the flexibility of the sport fencing "weapon" was actually an advantage. I would have assumed it was a disadvantage, but it visibly made it more difficult for the rapier user to beat the epee away, while the epee user was able to beat the rapier away more easily due to the rapier's rigidity.

  • @jasonjames9836
    @jasonjames9836 ปีที่แล้ว +31

    This looks to be a great series. Enjoyed this one a lot. Really interested to see epee/smallsword vs longsword.

  • @Eruidraith
    @Eruidraith 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    it was interesting to see how she was really dominating the opening half with lightning fast strikes, but it seems like the rapier adjusted to her pace in the second half well. this was pretty cool!

  • @PaleoBushman
    @PaleoBushman ปีที่แล้ว +5

    This is one of the most underappreciated channels on this platform.

  • @Thecrazysamurai69
    @Thecrazysamurai69 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    There's been an error in the counting of the hits, at minute 4:16, the epee fencer's olympic score went from 5 to 7. Either way, very good video.

  • @jaketheasianguy3307
    @jaketheasianguy3307 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    The rapier guy really loves using Inquartata

  • @drgeoffangel5422
    @drgeoffangel5422 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    As a retired fencing coach, I found this fascinating! The epee being shorter weapon is at a disadvantage in reach, however the longer Rapier is slightly slower in movement. Thus, the only logical effective tactic, is to let the Rapier come pass you, as the expert epeeist was doing. However, the allowable use of the hand for blocking will always nullify this tactic. I feel that without the ability to block the epee, the epee should come out on top, if you can deflect the initial rapier thrust, or sidestep it, and allow the target to come to you, as was demonstrated by the epeeist! In a normal rapier and dagger or rapier and glove match, they would be equal, as both would have no advantage or disadvantage. Great video! well done

    • @jimmyw7530
      @jimmyw7530 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      HEMA is simulated combat first then a sport. Hence why it is allowed. If you’re fighting for your life against someone with a Smallsword, of course you will use your offhand to deflect a thrust. Hence why it is perfectly legal. Sports fencing is a sport first then simulated combat. So considering this is a HEMA channel/scenario, the “what if” Epee rules scenario in your comment isn’t really relevant. If the Epee fencer also used her offhand though, now that would be a good move. A cut on the hand is preferable to taking a thrust to the head, torso or neck!

    • @laurenceperkins7468
      @laurenceperkins7468 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Under more typical rapier rules you have to be careful when letting the rapier thrust past you. Rapiers aren't primarily cutting weapons, but they still cut well enough to slash a neck or take a hand so just getting past the point doesn't necessarily make you safe. Especially if you then miss your own thrust, you may find a rapier fencer continuing to close instead of backing off, and trying to stay inside the epee's point and leverage the cutting ability of the rapier.

  • @fabricio-agrippa-zarate
    @fabricio-agrippa-zarate ปีที่แล้ว +11

    Impressive fencing skills!!

  • @paulfisker
    @paulfisker ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Film trzyma w napięciu jak dobre kino. Bardzo uczciwa prezentacja.

  • @SamondDoe
    @SamondDoe ปีที่แล้ว +4

    To be fair, since grabbing the opponents blade is prohibited in Olympic fencing, I wouldn't count the hits in the Olympic counter, the same way unsafe hits aren't counted in HEMA.
    The fight itself was cool af. I really felt the weight of the rapier not budging on most of the epee beating. She really struggled with controlling his blade, and was in constant and immediate danger.
    He, on the other hand wasn't as agile and responsive as she was, and was very tanky most of the time.

  • @themyrmidon2181
    @themyrmidon2181 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    This was wonderful to watch.
    Thank You!!!

  • @eurasiaacaci.-110
    @eurasiaacaci.-110 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Why does the rapier is not allowed to cut? Isn’t it make things pointless when you do that?

  • @ArtoPekkanen
    @ArtoPekkanen 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    It's really cool to see a pro olympic fender fight a rapier :) rapier definitely had advantage in length, but disadvantage in speed.

  • @AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing
    @AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Interesting concept and well executed. And great production quality of course.
    Of course some things could be made or designed differently but all such experiments must be contained in some ways and I think you have chosen a decent one.

  • @tsctheafkpanda3998
    @tsctheafkpanda3998 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    What this has taught me about winning in Rapier:
    You need four things to win a rapier exchange; distance, timing, arm strength, and experience in theft

  • @byronlee8745
    @byronlee8745 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    I've been a fan of swordsmanship since I first found out about Zorro when I was young. This duel was interesting to watch!
    Keep it up! New subscriber here!

  • @jameslaurence6619
    @jameslaurence6619 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Big fan of your work, always fantastic and very high quality. I am enjoying these competitive and exciting reviews, they are different to your gorgeous reenactment short films. Keep up the good work

  • @campfiresnlasguns
    @campfiresnlasguns 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I remember instinctively grabbing onto a friend's epee when he lunged. Nice to see that that's allowed in HEMA.

  • @dlatrexswords
    @dlatrexswords ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Love these mixed system showcases. Very clear rulesets and point system. Great video all around and great fencers!

  • @dodoz44
    @dodoz44 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Awesome video, love the editing and quick flow. Can't wait for next episode.

  • @Druid_Ignacy
    @Druid_Ignacy ปีที่แล้ว +4

    No, i to jest jakieś sensowne hema vs sportówa, a nie szpadzista w lekkim ubranku przeciwko długiemu mieczowi kontra hemowiec bez spodni :D Super miniatura. Może jak to PZSZ zobaczy to się wreszcie dogadamy i będziemy prawnie sportem? :D

  • @Usersunited
    @Usersunited ปีที่แล้ว +1

    "Hey, your sword is a bit heavier and slower due to its ability to cut instead of strictly thrusting. Not cuts allowed. MAY THE BEST WEAPON WIN"
    ? ? ?

  • @AndSendMe
    @AndSendMe ปีที่แล้ว +2

    HEMA rapier fencers always look like 80 percent of their technique is improvised rather than meticulously reconstructed from historical texts.

  • @Makumazaan
    @Makumazaan ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What a delight to watch! Dziekuje bardzo!

  • @eugenekyte6783
    @eugenekyte6783 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Превосходное соревнование! Благодарю за прекрасное зрелище! Марта - великолепна! С уважением!

  • @MrLetoRope
    @MrLetoRope ปีที่แล้ว

    This seemed really click-bait-y but actually much more 8nteresting and enlightening than expected. Well done. (Of course ruleset is everything and real combat is hard to emulate). The epee fencer in the first round did an amazing job overcoming the reach advantage with superior point control and quickness.

  • @verginas8692
    @verginas8692 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    gun vs knife but shooting is not allowed

  • @eugeniobonello418
    @eugeniobonello418 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    As a former NCAA div 1 fencer, this was so cathartic.

  • @kevinmorrice
    @kevinmorrice ปีที่แล้ว +3

    poor showing, for a truely realistic comparison, why not let each fighter have no handicaps, just fight to there strengths

  • @andysq9gat887
    @andysq9gat887 ปีที่แล้ว

    Piękne starcia. Wreszcie można coś oglądać z wielką ciekawością. Brawo!

  • @evanplanas
    @evanplanas ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Is a sport epee historically valid? meaning is its composition similar to a supposed "war epee" that would actually be used in combat or a duel. if not this is like a gun fight between a 1911 and an air-soft gun.

    • @InSanic13
      @InSanic13 ปีที่แล้ว

      I know it derives from an early 20th century French dueling sword meant for "first blood" duels, but I don't know how close it is.

  • @jocundphoton3152
    @jocundphoton3152 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I absolutely love this video! I've lost count of how many times I've rewatched it. Do you think you'll ever produce a video of olympic sabre vs any form of historical sabre (as in, either British, Hungarian or Polish)?

  • @Phandiw
    @Phandiw ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Weapon vs weapon, but you handicap one weapon by not allowing its cuts?
    Counterintuitive, and completely destructive of the "safe hit to first blood" idea of the first duel.
    But rapiers weren't famous for their fatal cleaving capacity, so SOMEWHAT less relevant in the "fatal intention" duel.

    • @asherroodcreel640
      @asherroodcreel640 ปีที่แล้ว

      Apparently it's supposed to mimic the worst rapier guy who only used thrusts even though the guy might be using Italian which makes it worse, but I dunno man I only read the comments

  • @robinthrush9672
    @robinthrush9672 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    If the question is "which is the better weapon?" the Epee is automatically at a loss regardless of whatever score this ends up at. It's light and fast, but too flexible and has no edge. It's not a weapon, it's a piece of sports equipment and it specialized to that end.

  • @nolanbowen8800
    @nolanbowen8800 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Both are amazing! Marta at 23 years old has a bright future. The Epee is too flimsy in my opionion.

  • @GingerBeard24
    @GingerBeard24 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    In my opinion this was and/or is a really good educational and fun video.👍

  • @sunchips18
    @sunchips18 ปีที่แล้ว

    Some of those “unsafe hits” were definitely out of tempo, but this was a very interesting video over all. I enjoyed it.

  • @IanSumallo
    @IanSumallo ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Interesting to see how sports fencing's gait is quite a lot nimbler with a "bounce", similar to how boxers' bounce is executed, while HEMA has more of a planted footing.
    This allows the Sports fencer to get a lot of hits in during the first match due to her ability to beat the rapier off-line and do a follow up thrust immediately after. The HEMA rapier fencer had to play defensive and rely more on off-hand grappling as he was not able to keep up with the epee's speed.
    HOWEVER, come the second round, I noticed the HEMA practitioner learned his lesson: he no longer offered his blade straight towards his opponent so that the epee can no longer beat his rapier aside. This time, he made sure to always point it down, point it up, and even support his blade with his off hand so that his point cannot be easily manipulated by the epee, and so that he can bring his point in-line when he needs to.
    As far as I can see here, sports fencing beats HEMA in terms of pure speed of strikes and parris, but HEMA beats epee in terms of flexibility with their intentional off-line blade blocks and hand grabs.

    • @jaketheasianguy3307
      @jaketheasianguy3307 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Really depends on the context why the techniques look that way as well. HEMA manuscripts from Renaissance or Medieval time don't usually cover sport dueling in a flat and secure surface like a gym floor. Being "flat footed" will create a strong structure for fighting on almost every kind of terrain
      Also let's not forget the part where both of these contestants are rapier experts. The epee fencer is a rapier champion herself so she understand how to exploit the weakness of the weapon better than common Olympic fencers

    • @IanSumallo
      @IanSumallo ปีที่แล้ว

      @@jaketheasianguy3307 Yup. I know they're both skilled fighters with lots of skill and knowledge overlap. Just commenting on the gait they adapt when representing each style.
      Great point about the uneven terrain. I didn't think of that. Boxers and sports athletes often have controlled and neat floors so they can afford to do all that fancy continuous movement whereas you can't really do that reliably on loose or uneven soil

    • @snowblow1984
      @snowblow1984 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@jaketheasianguy3307 This is very interesting. I noticed that she fenced "mixed" style a bit. Pure sport fencers will calculate the distance very precisely and attack the wrist or whatever is the closest target at the moment. They will also set up false tempo with lots of half steps, taps and changes between small and wide steps. Taking the blade and parries were very nice tho.

    • @nevisysbryd7450
      @nevisysbryd7450 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@IanSumallo The footwear is a major concern as well. Period footwear had a _lot_ more slippage, especially on grass and moreso on wet grass.
      th-cam.com/video/OjgPUIUHT-o/w-d-xo.html

    • @HatiTheMoonChaser
      @HatiTheMoonChaser ปีที่แล้ว +5

      And yet rapier didnt cut or do anything like that xD Meaning about half the manuevers were off the table, and the only reason she can bounce like that is because she has a lighter blade. I have seen and fought a couple of olympic fencers that tried that bounce with a rapier in their hand. That stuff doesnt work, the moment they are in the air, strong lunge, step off the line a bit, their hand is slower than they expect in coming back up and boom easy points

  • @behelitruler9191
    @behelitruler9191 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    a lot of folks talking about rapier losing the cut making a big difference, but I think a bigger loss in points suffered by rapier was that Mr. Kalus demonstrated a propensity to leave his guard to the outside of his frame and angled in which gave Ms. Sokol a lot of great points of leverage to get strong parries and also surrendered a lot of his reach. Mr Kalus seemed to respond poorly when she beat him offline and closed. not panic, just an unfamiliar movement where he seems used to voiding instead of parrying or closing the line.

  • @hammerix8558
    @hammerix8558 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Cool that My country has awesome fencers

  • @dearcastiel4667
    @dearcastiel4667 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    12:36 rapier be like "you like it ? It's called having reach."

  • @CalebSDavis
    @CalebSDavis ปีที่แล้ว

    I am so glad that HEMA started taking advantage of range towards the end of round one. It was making me mad haha

  • @mat86100
    @mat86100 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    so much fun to watch! Really shows how much the skill matters, how a good fighter can keep the fight where they have the advantage. But also style! Would the fight have been different with different fighting styles? I think so. If the rapier user had a more bouncy, wide-legged stance, could they have kept the range in their favour more? But a flat-footed epee wielder who used their off-hand a lot to compensate for the shorter range would also be interesting. In fact I'd like to see the same two people swap weapons!

  • @Keragom
    @Keragom ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Not allowing cuts is just missing the entire point.
    Sport fencing will never have anything to do with real european historical martial arts.

  • @nsahandler
    @nsahandler ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I'm gonna say it:
    The stab and backspin at @5:40 was probably the cleanest and most-stylish hit I've seen on camera.
    Ya boi not only landed a clean and lethal blow, but Jedi-spinned out of the way of another killing blow. It was a perfect shot.
    Epee won the match, though I'm unsure why Rapier was not allowed cuts? It seems so out-of-place. *Of course* the Epee is going to get more-consistent thrusts than the rapier: It's a flailing piece of highly flexible metal that can be flicked around the guard.

  • @gbabayan
    @gbabayan ปีที่แล้ว

    Wow what a channel. Thank you algorithm.

  • @thunder2434
    @thunder2434 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    A thrust to a leg can be mortal over time but probably most of the time wouldn't stop the fight.
    A cut to the arm would more likely disable it or even end a fight, bifurcation say with a sabre or longsword would certainly end use of the limb and the fight, but a thrust to the arm may not even slow a fighter down who's high on adrenaline on a battlefield even if it might be disabling or even deadly over time. So I'm happy to see you included the variant without (basically) limb strikes counted.
    It would be interesting to see if the tide shifts once again if both wear breastplates that count as impervious, would it allow the faster epee fencer to weather most initial rapier thrusts and get past the longer range and score more hits?

  • @andrewpolonsky2305
    @andrewpolonsky2305 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks! Outstanding performance!

  • @LeonardoSeiyti
    @LeonardoSeiyti ปีที่แล้ว

    I can't wait to see the next video of this series.

  • @thelordsanguine6383
    @thelordsanguine6383 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Couple interesting takeaways from this:
    1 - Interesting to see the weights of the weapons in action, Olympic epee very light compared to Spanish cup hilt rapier.
    --------- I think a better comparison would've been with an original (in design) dueling Epee or even earlier, the small-sword, which is where epees descend from, not rapiers.
    --------- Nonetheless, if you've trained with a weapon enough, it should be effortless, as it should be an extension of your body
    2 - Not allowing cuts highlights how important it is then to have it compared to a proper historical counterpart (i.e epee/small-sword)
    --------- Unlike the kendo/epee video that was posted recently to TH-cam that allowed all forms of contact.
    --------- Not allowing arm/leg contact in the second act, again highlights the need for better comparison as it will favour the longer/heavier weapon. Full body contact is fairer, and so is allowing full rapier expression.
    3 - Having practiced HEMA for some time, now competing in Epee (sport), it's evident that the footwork and basic sword work is more refined/regimented in the epeeist. This is without knowing their skill levels obviously, however the basic regular bladework preceding the footwork allowed the epeeist to engage and disengage a lot quicker than the other duelist
    -------- The rapier was more or less poorly instinctively reacting rather than thinking various steps ahead, which is like what a lot of new fencers do as they slowly filter out their recoiling reaction in favour for planning/thinking
    -------- The biggest mistake rapier made CONSTANTLY (especially for ITALIAN rapier), was contracting the arm and keeping the point off target (non-threatening), allowed for too many easy points for the epeeist, who had lesser reach, again very basic lessons for beginner training. Italian Rapier is/was the most influential school for modern epee, yet the epee used it more effectively. Doing this alone would've made for a more decisive rapier victory with its formidable reach and versatility (I don't mean "cuts", there's more hardware available for use)
    4 - Like I stated earlier about having done HEMA, what bothered me most about it, like various martial arts (karate and kung fu in particular, compared to boxing/jiu jitsu), is how stubborn they are with regards to their conceived notions of "form", where they sacrifice mobility to replicate historic manuals' still images. I guarantee you, in a fight/duel situation, you're not going to want to slowly step around. Sure, there was the Spanish school of rapier ("destreza") that revolved (pun intended) on circular-to-linear contact movement, but it did not state that it should be limited to walking/shuffling pace.
    -------- Move slow = get hit;
    -------- Move quick = hit not so much
    It was an interesting video, sad they couldn't do it fairly. I was hoping for some documentation to showcase "real"/performative comparisons.

  • @hemayeg3703
    @hemayeg3703 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video! super fun to watch!

  • @99IronDuke
    @99IronDuke ปีที่แล้ว +3

    The Epee is not a weapon it is a piece of sports equipment, that would be entirely useless in a actual fight.

    • @Overdrawn_
      @Overdrawn_ ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Ok

    • @thomastucker7317
      @thomastucker7317 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Sharpen the point on an epee and you have the literal weapon it represents, the epee. There are films on youtube from the early to mid 20th c of actual epee duels, not exactly useless

    • @jaketheasianguy3307
      @jaketheasianguy3307 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      By that logic the rapier they're using here is also a sport/training equipment as well because it flex more than a real swords + a rubber tip. Feder longsword is not a weapon either. The epee represented a weapon of it's period, the smallsword, a blade with no edge and can only thrust

    • @matthewpham9525
      @matthewpham9525 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @aaa
      The real versions of weapons are made however the maker makes them, which includes more or less flex. Floppiness here is from a variety of factors, the high-leverage pistol grip, heavy point, optical illusions, as well as the blade profile.

    • @thomastucker7317
      @thomastucker7317 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Would you like to be stabbed with a sharpened epee? Not likely. Even as floppy as the sport weapons are, they still parry the rapier thrusts fine, they would likely parry cuts fine too though you'd have to parry much closer to the shell. You talk as if most sport fencing technique is behind the back flicks, where in reality most technique is compatible with their historical equivalent.

  • @Meineself
    @Meineself ปีที่แล้ว

    Marta's dexterity is amazing.

  • @jdirthead
    @jdirthead ปีที่แล้ว

    Spear vs Pole Axe/halberd, Spear vs. longsword. Hope to see more soon!

  • @QBALL85
    @QBALL85 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    "Your friend's dead. And Meryn Trant's not, cause Trant had armor and a big f'n sword!"

  • @RaggaDruida
    @RaggaDruida ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The speed advantage of the Epee here makes me think about some potential origins of the development of the smallsword (that the Epee is technically a safe analogue of)

    • @rarescevei8268
      @rarescevei8268 ปีที่แล้ว

      No, the sabre is an analogue of the smallsword

  • @alanr9504
    @alanr9504 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Holy shit the graphic quality is next level

  • @DestroyerOfOgis
    @DestroyerOfOgis ปีที่แล้ว

    2:51 The way Rafal grabbed on the Epee and didn't let go of it, I can't 💀

  • @franciscofunari2343
    @franciscofunari2343 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This says more about the skill of the fighters than the swords

  • @alcosmic
    @alcosmic ปีที่แล้ว +1

    As a JKD practitioner, I found great value here

  • @crackerman5519
    @crackerman5519 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    at 9:45 the afterblow shouldnt count as its unlikely that someone stabbed through the chest/neck would recover, wind, stabilize and then counterattack
    same with 11:54
    and 12:15

  • @Hailstrumm
    @Hailstrumm ปีที่แล้ว

    i love the parrys Marta did

  • @sergie9165
    @sergie9165 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Marta's technics is so much advanced. If she had been a man with adequate physical strength, she would have won 10-0 in both fights

  • @warthogA10
    @warthogA10 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    My sister did fencing for a few years, she put a lot of time and energy into it.
    When she won her first competition.. she stopped.
    She has done this with every aspect of her life.. even with landing incredible jobs..
    Once she'd get a position, she soon left to start over elsewhere..
    It's always been completely bizarre ro me.. 🤔

  • @misterangel8486
    @misterangel8486 ปีที่แล้ว

    This... This was interesting ❤️
    My respect to both fighters.
    Impressive👏🙏🍻

  • @Wuldrian
    @Wuldrian ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent video as always gentleman :)

  • @rometsvv
    @rometsvv ปีที่แล้ว

    Many double hits is a poroblem some fencing tests)) Great video!

  • @taggartlawfirm
    @taggartlawfirm ปีที่แล้ว

    Man you guys are way way closer than I would be comfortable with.

  • @jopojopo1
    @jopojopo1 ปีที่แล้ว

    looking forward too watching the other videos

  • @OtharSmirnow
    @OtharSmirnow ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Pomysł może nie nowy, ale wykonanie świetne 😁👍

  • @dylanhentch9719
    @dylanhentch9719 ปีที่แล้ว

    This awesome, I can't believe how well the epee can block the rapier.

  • @MizanQistina
    @MizanQistina 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    "It's not the plane, it's the pilot"

  • @xenomorphphantom8852
    @xenomorphphantom8852 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The floor appears to not be the most adequate,both hesitate a lot and don't try much footwork.
    Both types of swords depend a LOT on footwork to be effective.
    Amazing video!!!

    • @zaganim3813
      @zaganim3813 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      seems they want to stay in camera field of view, then again a LOT of fencers get stuck moving back and forth instead of circling

  • @christophersteingart2237
    @christophersteingart2237 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    In a real fight, the one armed and studied with rapier, would destroy what offends them.

  • @the_mad_fool
    @the_mad_fool 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    For the second ruleset, I'd be interested to see a Foilist try, as they are used to the limited hit area.

  • @gamingphilosopher153
    @gamingphilosopher153 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    So you're comparing weapons by setting rules that highly disadvantage one (no cuts with rapier / thrusts only). What will be next? Spear vs longsword, but cuts only?

  • @antoniolopezlopez4236
    @antoniolopezlopez4236 ปีที่แล้ว

    Rapier (Ropera), spanish sword from the first half of XVII century.
    It was an evolution of the middle age sword, as better armors were created, adapted to stab and increase reach, used in combination of a dagger called "vizcaína" with whole hand guard meant to defend.
    In the first treatises of Jerónimo Sánchez de Carranza in 1582, a practical approach to fencing based on mathematic-tecnnical principles was adopted, which derivated latter in the art "verdadera destreza" following the fundaments stablished by Luis Pacheco de Narváez.

  • @luisalejandromurat1315
    @luisalejandromurat1315 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks is very entertaining

  • @johnnynarcissist
    @johnnynarcissist ปีที่แล้ว

    I absolutely LOVED that. Yes I'd like to see cutting being allowed and, yes, it'd be interesting to remove the second hand action but fascinated nonetheless

  • @bad_pretender4736
    @bad_pretender4736 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great! Thanks a lot for this video!

  • @KalElRedK
    @KalElRedK ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Why thrust only? A Rapier can also cut.

  • @jeffrey7592
    @jeffrey7592 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great videos!
    I have not had much luck finding weapon comparisons like this done by seasoned athletes. They are typically done by people with very little if any experience, so the comparisons are not very realistic.
    Make more!

  • @ElDrHouse2010
    @ElDrHouse2010 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The only thing the Rapierist needs: Balanced stance
    The historical stances are wrong, yes you heard it here. If the weight is more on 1 leg you only have good movement either foward or backward, fights are unpredictable you don't know if you want to make space or close the space, keep it balanced. Even the man who has won the most Rapier tournaments says so, drop the historical stances, balanced stance is better.

  • @m--w-cki3934
    @m--w-cki3934 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    O ! Mateusz z mieczem! Świat jest mały :D

  • @TimberwolfCY
    @TimberwolfCY ปีที่แล้ว

    Halfway through, a couple points regarding fairness:
    1) Obviously rapier is longer which I'm not contesting, however clearly fencer on the left has a distinct height advantage. Combined with the 20cm weapon length advantage (which is already significant considering skilled fencers of any weapon can use even just 1cm to an advantage), the FotL's reach advantage is huge.
    2) Compounding this, most points seem start with FotL farther forward off center. FotR could have perhaps been a little more aggressive, but starting every point with a significant ground advantage is also of note.
    Edit: more of the same really, but advantages were compounded due to limited target area, which meant more reach was required to get in for a hit. Moreover FotL clearly has a huge experience advantage when it comes to using the off-hand.
    It was a good, well-produced video honestly. But epee was always meant to be a full-body first-blood dueling weapon, and this context must be kept in mind when viewing, so neither the epee win for the first fight (despite the reach double-advantage *and* ground advantage :/ ) nor the hosing during the second fight should be very surprising for an objective viewer.

  • @humorlessclown
    @humorlessclown ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I love this channel 😊
    On the list I wanna see military Sabre vs sword and buckler.
    From the coming soon options I wanna see spear vs sword and buckler.
    Not on that list I wanna military Sabre vs epee. I wanna see that lady beat up more people 😆 ❤

  • @miguelvalladares1986
    @miguelvalladares1986 ปีที่แล้ว

    I have my duelist epee made in Toledo Spain. I like it a lot.

  • @copperkid95
    @copperkid95 ปีที่แล้ว

    l miss fencing, I fenced in middle-highschool but couldn't afford the gear so I stopped I wish I could do it again.

  • @billh2294
    @billh2294 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    If you have a superior reach weapon why would you ever take the tip offline, especially when your opponent has the superior speed? If this is based on dueling, how can you state cuts are not counted? Thought it was interesting that overrunning was considered 'not safe' yet grabbing the tip of an Epee was ok.

  • @Debbie338
    @Debbie338 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Seems pretty silly to pit a weapon made for cutting against a weapon made for thrusting and disallow cutting.
    But, watching this is fascinating, anyway.

  • @greylocke100
    @greylocke100 ปีที่แล้ว

    Have you done the quarterstaff against the edged weapons yet?

  • @eugeniobonello418
    @eugeniobonello418 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    As a former div 1 ncaa fencer, I also think they should have forced her to use French grip or at the very least also use a rapier, this would have been a better test.

  • @coryhorton5837
    @coryhorton5837 ปีที่แล้ว

    I’d like to see a contest where cuts were allowed.

  • @mono891031
    @mono891031 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    El enfrentamiento es muy lineal como en la esgrima moderna. Cuando en la esgrima antigua se solía hacer giros y atacar por los costados según la verdadera destreza española en el uso de la espada ropera. Además de tener guardias muy erguidas cuando en realidad eran más agachadas y alargadas.