Nothing Brakes Better Than The Ford Mustang Dark Horse - Wait, What?!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ต.ค. 2024
- How The Ford Mustang Dark Horse Became The King Of Braking
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Nothing has ever braked shorter than the Ford Mustang Dark Horse, in the entirety of Motor Trend’s testing. The 5.0L V8 boasts 500 horsepower, meaning the car has both potency and heft, and yet it stops as well as a hypercar. In testing, the Mustang stopped from 60 mph in just 86 feet, nudging out the Porsche 911 GT2 RS, which had the crown for best braking for over 5 years. Who could have guessed it’d be replaced by a muscle car?
In this video, we’ll digest the bonkers stats of such braking prowess, discuss whether it is cool or lame, challenge the notion that braking is limited to the best tires (hello McMurtry Speirling), and look at a deceleration trace of one of the best stopping vehicles that exists. Spoiler, the results aren’t at all what one might expect.
Related Links:
Motor Trend Mustang Test - www.motortrend...
Car and Driver Mustang Test - www.caranddriv...
Car and Driver Top 15 Braking - www.caranddriv...
Porsche GT4 RS Testing - www.caranddriv...
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**Metric Folks!** Here are some conversions, in order of appearance, from the video:
60 mph = 96.6 kph
86 ft = 26.2m
4,000 lbs = 1814 kg
2,200 lbs = 1 metric ton
4,400 lbs = 2 metric tons
170 lbs = 77 kg
30 ft = 9.1m
300.8 mph = 484 kph
70 mph = 112.7 kph
I understand the frustration if you're not familiar with the units, however I'm simply using the units that the source material (Motor Trend) publishes. In addition, I do my best to get everything in terms of "g's" rather than "feet," so that it's universal and easy for everyone to understand. That said, your concerns are noted, and I'll keep this in mind for future edits! I have plenty of videos using either unit, and generally choose based on the context of the topic. 60-0 measurements would equate to 96.6 kph - 0 measurements, which doesn't seem like it'd be intuitive to anyone (versus 100 - 0 kph, which would have longer stopping distances). By using g's, we avoid this unnecessary confusion.
People complain a lot. I also grew up with the metric system, but I find it interesting to have to do some quick, rough conversions from imperial to metric in my head. For miles to km I just multiply by 1.5, for feet to meters I divide by 3, for lbs to kg I just divide by 2, for inches to cm (I know, not standard in engineering) I just multiply by 2.5.
Could you please edit these into the video as text? Or whatever is easy for you.
Thanks, it took 10 minutes before I understood any measurement, and the unit was two car lengths 😅
Hi, great work, great video, but as a metric system user myself I can assure you there is no unit of speed named "kph", which literally means 1000/hour. I'm sure you mean km/h, meaning 1000 meters per hour. Again, this doesn't take anything away of the great quality of your videos that I enjoy watching every time!
@@lightbulbetcetera6989 No, kph means kilometer per hour, it literally spells out to that. If you really want to get technical it could mean kilopascal hours, which is a nonexistent unit (because what would it measure, pressure for a while) but definitely not 1000/hour.
"That's kind of a random jumble of number, who really cares?" The WHITEBOARD cares, Jason... The whiteboard cares! Love your videos, been watching for years!
I don't always understood the white board.
I do however understand 60 to 0 in 87 feet, which is LESS than ten yards! I understand that is crazy.
75 to zero should be the one they test though.
@@dianapennepacker6854 Amazing how you use two length units, that literally the majority of the world population understand neither. Maybe try switching out one for an SI system unit next time :)
All hail the mighty whiteboard!
@@dianapennepacker6854less than 30 yards.
@@hashgeek929 I was joking, but looking back it was a poor joke for text. Ya know meaning I don't understand the white board or anything for that matter.
Cheers!
I love your style, Jason. Informative, entertaining lesser-known facts, a mix of your own opinions, and not taking yourself too seriously. A great combination and for sharing observations in a fun way!
Love this comment, thanks for sharing your kind words!
Mustang owners will break that record without touching the brake pedal when they slam into other cars 50 feet after leaving the car show.
60-0 instantly.
Isn't it more like, going sideways into a curb?
True. But now Ford is sending Mustang buyers to driving school. Let's see if that helps.
Big Brake *hates* this one easy trick.
Sideways into a curb at cars and coffee is quicker than that!
I remember watching your video on turbochargers a decade ago and found you so relatable because you looked like someone in my high school at the time. It's really nice to see how far you've come along after so many years and how well your channel has grown. You're genuinely a nice guy and deserve the growth your channel has received.
I remember years ago when the 93 RX7 stopped from 60 in 99 feet. Impressive for the tire and ABS technology of the day since modern cars only beat it slightly.
also helps that it weighed like 2k lbs less than a modern car lol
@@ihavealife002🎯
I think Mustang only makes up for 1 of the 583864838474774 modern cars that the commenter meant.
@@ihavealife002the weight doesn't really matter at all, as long as the brakes are strong enough the weight is a non factor. The hard part is the tractionm
wonder what the rx7 would do completely stock with a new set of modern tires in the stock size
"I don't know why it brings me joy to make an entire video feel pointless right at the end of it, but it is cool what the dark horse achieved"
I absolutely love this in your videos!
Jason, you would only need half of the whiteboard when using the metric system 😊
That is actually the top reason to use standard, I want more whiteboard, not less! 😅
Freedom units are more betters! 😂
That’d put me out of a job!
@@EngineeringExplainedThis we have to avoid by any means! Keep on going the way you like it!
@@EngineeringExplained it's a good thing you converted it to "2 car lengths" at one point, cause I was about to click away due to not having a clue what these foreign numbers meant.
9:40 “It’s so exciting that the marker can’t even write it” 😂😂
Was thinking about the GT4’s deceleration graph. I feel like the beginning spike can be due to load transfer and tire load sensitivity. Best braking when the front & rear tires have equal contact pressure, and once the weight transfers to the fronts, your deceleration will decrease. Your deceleration decreases which will cause the front suspension to unload a bit and even out the weight distribution a bit more and your deceleration starts to improve until this pattern reaches a steady state.
It has the most downforce then. Also you can apply more brake at higher speed without locking due to rotational inertia of the wheels.
why it front/rear grip should be equal to maximaze grip?
@@vercingetorige400 tires are load sensitive. They have less friction per applied load as more load is applied. Hence you want as much balance as you can typically.
@@ruleslawyer they are load sensitive but i think standard weight distribution and therefore weight is nowhere near to max out the grip, so you can extract much more by those with weight transfer and front biased brakes. All kinda of shenanigans can happen during the dynamic response of the body, suspensions and tyres loading and unloading and changing the grip, but with a CG in the average height, weight transfer is a necessity and an imbalance is inevitable. Thank god for the abs
@@vercingetorige400at any given autocross, the top 10% of drivers can out stop abs. I know, I was one of them.
Makes me want to see all cars tested with the same tire compound.
Most of the top performance cars are running Michelin Pilot "Cup 2" tires from the factory.
I assume they test it with factory tires, whatever comes with it when you buy it.
that doesn't work this way, though.
cars come with different weights plus different tire widths.
that's why you need a tire specific for the car you're testing. when you seemingly "equalize" the tires, then it'll coincidentally suite one car, but not others.
also, breaking distance testing is essentially tire grip testing.
no breaking system is weak enough to actually play the limiting factor.
yes, suspension and weight distribution are the other factors that also play a role.
@@HxTurtle To some extent. Tire width and tire compound are not coupled. My thought isn't just about modern cars, but also historical ones. So often car manufacturers brag about their engineering, when a lot could be contributed to the tire manufacturers improvements.
Personally I'd like to be able to separate car improvements from tire improvements
@@IrocZIV what are you trying to say?
tire width and compound are directly related with each other. every compound has an optimal force that it needs to be compressed with in order to work best. is the force too high, it stops to behave like a rubber and turns into some sorta stone, in short. the wider the tire, the softer the compound needs to be in order to operate in the optimal working window.
Thank you for all of your hard work, Jason. You're saint. Your consistency and massive effort put into your videos is admirable. Keep up the good work, man. 😎
I appreciate that! 🙏
Thank you Professor Jason for another fascinating lecture. Where were you 35 years ago, and why didn't you tell me engineering was this awesome!
On the McMurtry concept, I had theorized (30 years ago) about using a vacuum system on each wheel or axle in conjunction with an active suspension system to achieve better traction and handling.
Brabham bt46 already proved this concept 45 years ago
@@CasparPietersen The Jim Hall Chaparral 2J had snowmobile engine driven fans to create suction in 1970, 8 years before Brabham. The car was promptly disallowed the next year of CanAm racing. This was from the era of when CanAm cars were faster than F1 cars.
As many had pointed out fan cars have been a thing way longer than 30 years.
Stops better than a Porsche gt3rs and a viper acr. Mustang is going to be a weapon on any track
It’s only because of the tires that are equipped that give it superior grip to slow down before lock up
@@udpbooterYup! And tire wear will be atrocious with 4000 lbs, regardless of how well the tires perform in a short test.
It’s too heavy to beat the 3RS on a track
I designed the front calipers on this program... So happy to see this video =)
That unevenness in the braking is something I've definitely felt on ride alongs in both a Cayman GTS and Cayman GT4. While you are decelerating you can feel more intense and less intense aspects.
Motor Trend magazine awarded their Car of the Year award to the Chevy Vega a couple of times in the 70's. That pretty much explains the discrepancy in their data vs. Car and Driver...
“ its so exciting that the marker cant even write it “
had me laughing out of the sudden 🤣
Fast catch, there.
"It's so exciting the marker can't even write it" 😂😂😂
That GT4 RS chart must have the waves primarily due to ABS action.
Great video as always!
Yeah it’s pretty interesting, I need to chat with Car and Driver about it! Found the chart right at the end of researching this video (linked in video description).
@EngineeringExplained I would speculate that a significant contribution of that charts variation is thermodynamic effects at the rotor interface.
In your Expectation vs Reality quad, that looks like a periodic wave from the ABS modulating hydraulic pressure. The max peak is right at the beginning, as the ABS hasn't seen any slip yet and allows max pressure to the calipers. Once the tire initially breaks traction, I'd suppose the surface of the tire gets a bit "greasy" and limits the subsequent max g's at the same time as the ABS modulates the hyd pressure.
I find this kind of analysis fascinating. It would have been interesting to know what tires were fitted to the car. What I’d like to see, though, in those big comparisons car magazines do, like “performance car of the year” events, is a sequence of brake test runs, say 20 or 30 times from 70 mph to 0 with a 5 second interval between each run. That would provide a notion of how the car would behave in real life. It’s common to see powerful cars in track days suffer from fading in less than 5 laps or so, depending on the track of couse. The same thing goes for acceleration tests from 0-60 mph or 62 mph, even though I must say I find this much less relevant (just to avoid saying irrelevant) in real life, even though it provides some measure of the mechanical resilience of the car.
The Dark Horse has Pirelli P Zero Trofeo RS tires. I'm sure the carbon fiber wheels also helped.
FINALLY someone else who thinks tires are sexy. If you ever want some really geeky data get in touch, also it should be noted the tire on the dark horse is the new Pirelli P Zero Trofeo RS which if the rumours are true, will out grip even the cup 2r...
What I find amazing, is the track focused Mustang now weighs over 4000 pounds. My 10 year old Mustang GT weighs about 3,200 pounds and is partially gutted and track focused. There's still interior, just no back seats, Kirkey racing seat, no AC and things like that. That must mean that the new GT is around 4,100 pounds and a convertible around 4,200 pounds. I wonder if they'll make one more Cobra Jet? It would be interesting to see what that would weigh but I think they've gone electric on that front.
I think that graph at the end has a wave because of the weight transfer bouncing back and forth. Weight Shifting to the from front initially and that’s why you get that massive spike in stopping power, then the weight bounces back etc etc. dampers can only do so much
Surface definitely makes a difference.. I think my 5G 1LE tests between 98-101 feet stock. With OEM pads and PS4S tires it brakes 97-102 feet from 60 depending on the surface and temperatures.
This is a joke.....right?
@@clc2328 This is a joke....right? OP makes a valid comment and includes data. You don't like his comment and data? In addition to surface, there are other factors in play here, such as ambient temp, tire compound, PSI, brake pad friction coefficient...etc. My 2019 SS 1LE on OEM tires and pads, which are not as sticky or as aggressive pad compound, stops from 60 MPH in 93'. On similar tires, surface and brake pads I'd be surprised if it didn't outperform dh mustnag. Which is a joke... even if it didn't cost as much as a ZL1/C8 Z51.
nope, if you think you can predict what kind of braking YOU can do with YOUR car within 5 feet based on tire and pad selection, you have a lot of growing up to do @@FL50ssp
I grew up in Akron Ohio. My father worked for General Tire. He said so many times that he was amazed with how much new technology has improved tires over his lifetime and they’re still getting better. My first set of tires on a 1969 nova were bias ply tires. One had to have winter tires.
Everybody knows that nothing breaks like a mustang…wait, what?
Lmao 😂
breaks bones *
It wasn't built by fiat tho
That was my first thought!
Ford is actually generally reliable. At least in Europe or Africa or Asia. The new Mustang should be no exception. Not sure about the other American-market Fords though
The C7 ZO6 broke into the 120's (70-0 mph) way back in 2015. Porsche tied it a few years later with 911 GT3 RS. I believe the ZR1 is still the braking champ tho (according to C&D) which makes me happy because porschies can be so pretentious sometimes.
I wonder how much of the difference between the two test scenarios is due to weight transfer. When you break hard, the car's weight shifts to the front. I would imagine that the smaller and lighter car would be able to complete this process quicker than a big and heavy one and therefore reach peak deceleration earlier. At the end of the day, the time it takes from pedal press to standstill is what really matters.
The most optimal braking for any 4-wheel car is to have equal normal load along all 4 tires. It's imperative that there is a good rear brake bias to not throw all the weight to the front. You're correct about the weight from a simplistic physics analysis, but in reality, there is also significant tuning that gets you peak decelerating long g's.
depends if you're talking about emergency braking, for your safety, or braking that you can plan like for a corner, on the road or on a track. on the road, braking distance should only matter for emergncy braking, there is no reason to brake with 100% power before a corner. Unless you have some carbon ceramic brakes that need to get up to temperature, you always want to stay within a certain safety margin (lets say20-50% depending on people/cars) and keep that margin for emergencies. Emergency, by definition, doesn't warn you before hand so you have to take into account the time to ramp up the braking power, and weight transfer. Interessingly Fortnine did a vide oabout ABS on motorcycle, and how slamming the brakes with ABS does get longer braking distance not only because of the wheels locking up, but because also because weight transfer takes time to settle. its not only about weight, but suspension tuning
On a track, you want to have fade resistant brakes and use close to 100%, but you can anticipate and setup the weight transfer before slamming the brakes. here weight naes a difference in the long run because after dozens of high speed braking, the heavier car is way more likely to overheat the brakes
@@kennwin7 Huh? Rear brake bias doesn't have any effect on how much weight goes to the front, that's down to the suspension and physics. Good brake bias means both ends of the car achieve their best braking performance.
@@pauldzim it affects the pitch of the weight transfer to the front in transient state. Of course the primary factor is CG and stiffness of the chassis itself and the road banking & incline itself. What I said wasn’t wrong. It’s more complicated than just “haha thing is heavy”. In racing it’s down to the small things
@@pauldzim You're telling me braking has nothing to do with weight transfer? What a stubborn guy. Braking performance is optimized on both ends of the car BECAUSE good brake bias allows you to evenly distribute load across all 4 tires. The friction formula is F = mu*N where Mu is the coefficient of friction (Static/Friction) from the road surface and N is the normal load. The normal load is derived from weight transfer front/rear (pitch).
Regarding the oscillations in the deceleration curve: looking at the mu-slip curve for a tire, we would typically have a pretty linear increase of friction with increasing tire slip up to a maximum and a drop after this optimal breaking tire slip to the blocking tires. This ideal slip is however very dependent on load and road surface, temperature etc. The ABS system actually tries to identify and control the brakes to reach this ideal slip, which would then give you much more constant deceleration. However, it’s very hard to estimate all needed quantities (e.g. slip is only estimated not measured and only the effects of environmental conditions are observed). Thus what you see here is really a very much imperfect control loop. You could probably buy some performance here with much better sensors (e.g. DGPS + better wheel encoders for better slip estimates) but you’d be still at the mercy of environmental conditions (think wet road/different tarmac).
Additional factor is that once you cross the optimal wheel slip, the system becomes unstable as the wheel drops to fully blocked (slip=1). That’s why active control is needed and you won’t be able to fully avoid some oscillation.
I love the ending 🤣
You sir are a rockstar!!!
I appreciate what you are doing Jason. "That doesn't sound correct" and then it knaws at you until you prove your intuition.... Or not.
I remember my old 300zxtt giving me and the passenger a headache under hard breaking so can only imagine what a modern fast car could do to your brain!
Regardless of where it falls on the “best of” list, it’s damn impressive for a car of this price. Kudos to Ford.
I would still like to see the equation inclusive of the time it took for the stang to reach maximum braking friction since it's significant for the approximate total vs the conventional/mathematical. *I also agree with the weight of sports cars simply being wrong!*
Always great videos I am mesmerized by your followers today but when you started, I knew you would get here.
Explaining this stuff is never pointless! Knowledge is power. Great use of the whiteboard BTW.
I find that last braking graph kinda interesting as well. I've slammed on the brakes many times before and never felt that. Could it be that porche's brakes are fancy materials that heat up rapidly and lose performance when topping out temps? My truck stops in ~179 ft at 60mph and it's pretty darn consistent and constant with measured G's (at 20hz)
carbon ceramic brakes should in theory work better at high temperatures, and be less effective in comparison when they are colder - they are installed primarily to prevent fade rather than improve maximum performance (as that is always fundamentally limited by the tyres).
ZR1 owner here. After the first minute of the video I didn’t believe it. The ZR1 brakes so hard. So I googled 60-0 breaking distance and sure enough the Mustang was shorter. I accepted this and continued to watch the video. And what sweet sweet validation when I got to the end😂
We need something with reverse thrusters.
McMurtry Speirling will have one next year
That word ‘need’ you are using: I don’t think it means what you think it means!
Wasn't the Tesla hypercar going to have air boosters for braking and cornering? Not heard about that project for years.
Can I have an automatic parachute please
I wonder what would happen if that fan car could shoot the air out the front during braking instead of out the back.
Huh, what do you mean tires can hide the weight of a car? It's just a basic physics fact that weight doesn't affect ideal breaking time/distance because the greater momentum is perfectly cancelled out by the greater breaking force thanks to greater down force.
What do you think about that new sub-1s 0-60 record by the Swiss student engineering team? I think the driver and car probably did 0-60-0 in less track distance than the McMurtry does 0-60, at a guess. I think she was selected for nerves-of-steel-per-kilo.
"It's so exciting the marker can't even write it!" ROFL thanks for that one Jason.
Looking at the oscillations of g-force when breaking, it would be very interesting to bring Brembo’s e-brake into the discussion.
It’s still in development, but as it is electrically actuated, it can find peak grip through actual control algorithms. Not using on/off cycles like ABS. Maybe that will deliver more constant g-force
Do you know what the Bosch motorsports ABS system uses? I don't, but I know thats what people use to find seconds per lap in their track car, just in braking zones alone
@@mm6705 Maybe it is better tuned for racing tyres. More agressive. But as far as I know, it is still conventional on/off ABS. The Brembo system works totally different
@@OrionFH I figured it wasn't published info...but just looked it up, bosch fully monitors 6 axis vehicle forces, individual wheel speed, and controls hydraulic to maximize traction...so seems like it brembo who is trying to break into that performance market?
Interesting, the part with the vehicle forces makes sense. I don‘t think anybody else does that. Brembo might enter the market through a racing application like that. Their end goal is an e-brake for the road, which would make it possible to remove the hydraulics completely (cost savings)
Will be difficult though, hydraulics are damn simple and guarantee safe braking. With their e-brake, that will have to be demonstrated
@@mm6705 Just about every racing motorcycle uses Brembo brakes, they are also used in F1.
I'm not surprised by the g-force fluctation in box 4. ABS is constantly tightening to get the wheels on the edge of locking up and loosening as it detects that edge and must release some pressure to keep them rolling. One thing you didn't mentioned Jason was the brakes presumably being cold before that initial brake smash is made, i.e. no time has set in for brake fade, even if fade is very little with a really superb brake system.
Still wild to me that we've made cars hunker down so well monsters like the Demons have better acceleration times than cars with the best brake times. I guess no one has made a car hunker down forward just to stop better, only whole-car downforce/vacuums like Jason showed.
Love my MotorTrend, btw, so thank you MT for providing that data, as well as C&D.
26 meters for those who prefer metric
Thanks, he seems to think only americans watch his channel.😅
I like it, I like it a lot! Love your video’s and the way you do them. The ending was awesome, caught me totally off guard. I am so glad I found your channel!
Can we have Metric figures included as well please
I love everything about this video. Classic engineering explained. Alas I haven’t time to watch now. Back soon
My guess is that most of the variation in braking G-force (last graph) is due to the ABS system. Sometimes you can hear it pulsing and hear the tires "chirping" as the ABS system adjusts to find that optimal spot. Also, since the Road&Track test includes the initial pedal engagement, you may be seeing the effects of the overall weight of the Mustang. It takes a lot longer for weight transfer to happen in a heavy vehicle. Plus even things like spring rates can play a role in how quickly the weight transfers and settles.
I don't have experience activating ABS in many vehicles but you should be able to feel it clearly through the pedal. My body feels a fairly constant acceleration but my foot very clearly feels every pulse of my car's ABS system, it's really cool to feel. I would think you can feel the abs working in everything not using brake by wire (meaning not in most EVs, anything with automatic braking, adaptive cruise control, or torque vectoring via brakes)
Downforce of the car changes when decelerating. That will probably change the balance too.
I’m sure there are more factors that will play a role.
The "weight transfer" doesn't take more or less time based on the factor of vehicle weight. In fact, the term "weight transfer" can be considered a misnomer. The nose dive you feel might take more time to settle, depending on the spring rates and damper settings. But the nose dive is not the weight transfer, it's just a side effect OF the weight transfer. What we call weight transfer is actually just the force vectors changing direction, and this happens instantly with, concurrently with, and proportionately to the change in braking force between the tire and the road surface. It is felt at the contact patches immediately, whether the spring has compressed yet or not.
@@johnhunter7244 Just like there are different engines with different behaviors, so too are there different ABS systems with different behaviors. My 2006 Exige exhibits absolutely zero perceivable pulsing through the brake pedal. It does not have any of the systems you mentioned. It will consistently out-brake my GT3RS w/ the Porsche carbon ceramic rotors. Not by a huge margin, but it will. I don't know whether Lotus designed the ABS system themselves, or if they just bought it from some third party manufacturer, but it is fantastic. On track, I pretty much just full stomp the pedal and let the ABS work its magic every single braking zone. The high horsepower cars put a couple car lengths on me down a straight, and I make up the deficit in the braking zone practically every time. Well, at least into the corners with substantial braking required...it doesn't hold true in situations where the brakes only need a brief tap.
@@xtnuser5338 interesting. A lotus exige is certainly a good example, I know it has absolutely none of those systems. My car I'm feeling it on is a 2010 Hyundai Genesis coupe 2.0t track (includes brembo brakes). AFAIK the braking system is stock except for pads.
Gday from Sydney, Australia Jason. Always enjoy your succinct presentations, 1st class.
You missed one of the coolest aspects of top fuel grip....downforce from the huge fire pipes sticking out of the motor!
Downforce AND thrust, since they're tilted backwards!
@@specialopsdavehe needs to do a video breaking down the correct pipe angle between down force and trust.
"it's so exciting the marker can't even write it" lol pure gold!
TIRES ARE UNDERRATED !
I've been in the accident reconstruction field for many years. One thing I did not hear talked about is the u(mu) value of the pavement. Every surface has a coefficient of friction, and roads vary greatly; in fact, civil engineers purposely choose different asphalt and concrete types based on specific road needs. That 1.4 coefficient is calculated for those tires on some specific surface that they used for testing. Do either Motortrend or Car and Driver include surface data?
Very good and often overlooked point when it comes to performance tests. Would be nice if we were more thorough with these performance tests and results. But that takes time, effort, and resources.
Easier to slow down while traversing the Cars & Coffee crowd on the sidewalk. 🤷🏻♂️
The only car I ever personally saw get sideways, slap a curb, and destroy a bunch of expensive parts at cars & coffee was a mustang. It made my whole year.
Bad handling car attracts bad drivers
Oof 💀
Because watching your videos bring joy to all of us! 15 min felt like just a few :)
Makes me very excited to see the GTD testing numbers
Hopefully, it will change the publics perspective on the mustang
@chirst5874 It shouldn't as it is a very limited production car that the public will never be able to own
He is talking about the Dark Horse, not the GTD model
@@betrayedpredator8826 that's what halo cars are meant to do
"It's the heaviest, yet still stops the quickest. What does that mean?"
It definitely means you need the capability to shed more BTUs per unit of time if you expect to avoid braking degradation with hard track usage. It probably means the Dark Horse will become known for brake fade.
Jason: If a BEV can accelerate from 0 to 60 in say 2 seconds, where stops that car braking by reversing the motors using regen alone from 60 to 0 in the same 2 seconds?
I'm pretty sure the regeneration/braking of electric motors is usually way more limited than the acceleration
I bet it produces so much heat that it is pointless for longevity
It would be too hard on the batteries to try and charge them that quickly.
13:20 Plus, The entire suspension and chassis is somewhat flexible, let alone rubber or PU-bushings. Also the suspension takes a fraction of a second to dive. So the wheels Slow down faster then the measuring equipment for a fraction of a second, and once everything is under load and stable, the sensor's speed has to catch up with the wheels' speed with a short peak of braking force.
Some time ago i was looking into transmission efficiency of tractor tires on soft soil and there were large differences depending on speed and slip, which i found fascinating. With road tires on tarmac these are guaranteed to be different but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out the efficiency of putting force into tarmac through tires is depending on speed and slip and as ABS is always chasing maximum net brake force it'll be going through parameters with different efficiencies.
Thank you for continuing to talk about how testers "cheat" by not counting the first foot in their 0-60mph numbers. I find it very disingenuous how they all do this now.
Yeah and they still call it 0-60 🤡
There is nothing disingenuous about this. They are trying to achieve consistency across timing modes. At the drag strip your staging lights are 1 ft apart so after the light goes green the clock doesn't start running till you break the last staging light.
To the question why there are so many variations in the g’s during braking, keep in mind that the main contributor is the ABS (or to be more precise the BSC for Brake Slip Control) which regulates every 5ms the brake pressure in every wheels. And the algorithm is quite complex because it is has to manage a lot of open road conditions and ensure a the best deceleration whatever the adherence variation are. And behind this, this is a kind of PID regulator.
It requires a long times to fine tuned this…
The Dark Horse stops in 86ft. But, sadly, it only does it once. Then you need $2,000 worth of rotors and pads.😂😂😂
And a new set of tires because you know those things are incredibly soft. This car is 500lbs heavier than the gt2rs. To get this kind of stopping distance, they're definitely making a compromise somewhere.
Those tires are like bugatti tires but for stopping.
@@tortol4847 indeed, physics will always be physics
@@tortol4847Yep, cheater tires win magazine tests, but last 5 minutes in the real world.
$2,000?? More like $20,000.
Jason.. master in engineering.. phd in communication 😊
26.21 meters. For my cultured friends.
thanks, was wondering what the fuss :) that makes sense now
Well, I guess we uncultured swine will have to console ourselves with the fact that for over 50 years, we're still the only country to have put people on the moon. We're such backwards idiots, right?
Would love to see a full episode where you analyze and detail the entire McMurtry Spierling from nose to tail 👊🏼😎
How long do those tires last?
about 4 blocks worth of cars n coffee burnout's!
@@michaelfried3123 yah track tires
@@michaelfried3123That's bold assuming it can go 4 blocks without crashing.
Good video as always 👍. General public and amateur racers struggle to understand that peak deceleration is a function of the tire. You make this point clear with the data supplied by car&driver. No manufacturer will ever get close to the tire that a Michelin US engineer designed for the Corvettes. He is the ultimate unknown hero 😉.
14:09 "...how's the ABS working out...": ABS has to let the wheels lock to know how to keep them from locking. Stand on your brakes in an ABS stop and you will feel the chatter as they lock and release repeatedly. It seems, after a few trials (of this same test), that you could construct a profile that knows exactly when the wheels will lock and adjust that to run the braking force just under that for the whole profile. That should eliminate the oscillation and achieve the absolute minimum deceleration.
I imagine this would only be for setting stopping records, right? This wouldn't take into account changing environments, tire performance etc. would it?
@@arog7493 Right. It's the ABS feedback that's causing the oscillation. Run the "course" a few times with the ABS active. Then replace the ABS with a forcing function algorithm that stays just under the point of switching from static friction to dynamic friction...without ever leaving static.
actually ABS dont allow (or at least tries to avoid) locking of the wheels. It releases pressure before wheel locks up. Chatter noise caused by the valves in the ABS hydraulic block, vibration on the pdeal is the pressure modulation.
@@gaborb I'll stand corrected if you can tell me how the ABS knows it's gotten as much static friction as it can without sensing dynamic friction.
@@toddmarshall7573 during straight line braking the maximum force can be achieved at around 10-15% slip depending mostly on tyre compound. So abs can use this as target. in reality it's way more complicated but hopefully this is enough for understanding that locking is not necessary.
Always enjoy your videos. This one I liked particularly because I could respond to your "ptht ptht" sound as I do to my wife when she makes noises in place of words: as Hobson said "Yes, you obviously have a wonderful economy with words, Gloria. I look forward to your next syllable with great eagerness."
Try stopping five or six times with very little interval and you'll see the difference between systems.
In road conditions, no one performs emergency braking several times in quick succession.
@@tolepbut in true terms of ultimate braking performance multiple stops would be a true test.
@@tolep That just means you're not pushing the gas pedal hard enough
Jason, love each and every opinion you stated today.
What's interesting is, the more weight = More stop situation has been known in the CDL community for a long time. Loaded trucks stop better than unloaded ones.
LOL, no. an unloaded semi likely has way too much weight on the front tires but that is a function of the application design.
Most likely because the tires are designed to deal with the full load. Rubber compounds and constructions need to be extremely hard to deal with that weight. So the tires don't really work without the weight forcing them into the ground.
@@dimitrimariutto Would you like me to quote the DOT manual for A-Class CDL training or would you like to google why you're wrong?
@thquake8574 yes, the CDL does state that loaded trucks stop in less distance but as i said, it is a function of application design. The spring rate on tractors and trailers is set for the maximum weight it can carry and the high spring rate likely causes the suspension to bounce the tires when unloaded, thus removing traction during the braking phase. On dry, smooth pavement, the unloaded trailer should stop in less distance; in other situations, the loaded trailer would stop better. But with improvements in ABS and braking systems of late, I suspect unloaded trailers stop in less distance than loaded ones in most cases.
just found an internet article that references the CDL:
Section 6.1.3 Brake Early
Control your speed whether fully loaded or empty.
Large combination vehicles take longer to stop
when they are empty than when they are fully
loaded. When lightly loaded, the very stiff
suspension springs and strong brakes give poor
traction and make it very easy to lock up the
wheels. Your trailer can swing out and strike other
vehicles. Your tractor can jackknife very quickly.
You also must be very careful about driving
"bobtail" tractors (tractors without semitrailers).
Tests have shown that bobtails can be very hard to
stop smoothly. It takes them longer to stop than a
tractor-semitrailer loaded to maximum gross
weight.
In any combination rig, allow lots of following
distance and look far ahead, so you can brake
early. Don't be caught by surprise and have to
make a "panic" stop.
This is so true! I just watched a video of a new one of these “Dark Horses” and it only tapped the van it lost control and was ramming into! Major Improvement, Ford, good job! Now if we can just work on not NEEDING to HAVE TO use the brakes 😂
Wait, what?
Pretty car
That's all nice and dandy, just wait until those 4000lbs heat up the tires beyond their optimal range (and they will). That's the definition of using a number like that as sales tactics.
Well, uh, yeah that’s exactly what a numbers/stats test is. It’s not like they quantify how many times it takes to optimize 0-60 or chassis behavior under max breaking into a turn…
I’m sure plenty of places will track test this car and provide lap times.
The joy comes from understanding why. 🙂
It will brake fast and being a Ford also break fast.
I find it hard to believe that people disregard the Gen V Dodge Viper ACR for it's braking distance. It pulled off the 87ft. braking benchmark BEFORE Porsche did, but it's not talked about at all for some reason. Crazy that Ford managed to make the mustang do so as well though.
There was no one left to report it, the car was famous for trying to kill its drivers.
Pretty clean speirling drawing 👍🏾
I'm testing cars (and tires) for more than 15 years now and I must say that tire technology made great progress and is one of the most important part of better overall performance of cars you can buy today. Sadly modern cars are too heavy and too complicated and mostly not so enjoyable to drive.
Been enjoying your videoes for years and still do! 😁👍
Stopping distance vs vehicle price. A comparison we never knew we needed!
I would think a 4G stop would be rather painful for the driver's eyeballs. "Holy Blood Pressure, Batman!"
For reference, 86 feet is approximately 5.5 car lengths. This figure really puts into perspective how short of a distance that is on the road.
Also, one car length here is the length of one mustang dark horse, or 189 inches.
That braking test is kinda like the 0-60 with a 1 foot rollout. You can't actually get those numbers in real life. But it is a great comparison.
I think it is different. The issue that people have with 0 - 60 mph without rollout is that it is not actually 0-60 but nonzero-60. Whereas both of these 60-0 measurements are true 60-0. Just with the difference that one assumes you can immediately apply maximum braking force (by going above 60 mph and measure only the part below 60 mph) and the other incorporates the real pressing of the pedal exactly at 60 mph, which takes some amount of time. Both are relevant for different things as Jason pointed out in the video and you can get both in real life. If you brake from above 60 mph, you will get the motortrend number for the 60-0 braking distance. If you start braking exactly at 60 mph, you get the CaD number. Simple as that.
Excellent review, ty for this
Great video as always!
I have a 1996 mustang that's been turned into a track car. Weighs 2980 pounds. Stock brakes, slightly modified suspension, 275 width 200 TW tires, and I was recording ~1.4 G's under braking on track. The difference that tires make can be shocking.
Pirelli P Zero Trofeo RS are track semi-slick tyres that have to be warmed-up to work well, like in F1. So I assume that can play a big role in the testing. Motortrend may have warmed them up and C/D not, or something like that.
Yep, Motor Trend will keep running if times keep improving, though I’m sure all outlets run multiple tests.
Thanks for your informative and entertaining content g.
Another awesome episode!
I'm dating myself, but when I learned how to drive the stopping distance form 60-0 was several hundred feet longer. Hence counting to 1000-3 to see if you are keeping a safe distance between your car and the one in front. It's amazing how technology has progressed in the past ~50 years. Perhaps a retrospective video is called for?
Even if the Mustang DH isn't THE best braking production car, depending on testing conditions and methodology, it's still clearly really, really good. And it's one step further towards breaking the old misconception that muscle cars are only good for going fast in a straight line.
Very informative. One thing to consider, automotive publications are notorious for fudging data and being sympathetic to their advertisers. So, take Motortrend and Car and Driver's data with a big grain of salt, trust physics, and consider making a third graphin the top right corner that show advertisers spending over listed performance.
Thanks for the great video.
Fellow ME here. Big fan, love the equations and graphs (and there are 3.6 million more like me... who knew?!) Comment on the deceleration of the Mustang, first graph. Squiggly blue line represents average decel of 1.4G. Seems to me it can't possibly look anywhere near as horizontal as that. Case in point: vertical drop to zero at the end, which as you must know, is an infinite change in acceleration known as infinite jerk which cannot happen.