Yep, when my current '88 tc tanks, I will consider a new crate engine. At the moment it has 150K km on it with a dyno run tune giving it 80 hp[no tq info available] so hopefully it will run some more km's😀
I’d probably just gut the existing engine. My evo is a springer and I think the stock evo is a perfect, ‘correct’ fit to a bike like that. If I want something faster, I’d just buy another bike, but these crates are super impressive.
@@GixxerFoo Could you suggest a good cam for a 2013 ultra limited, I have a 2 into1 Bassanl exhaust k&n filter vision plus tuner? I am looking to get a good sound at idle and normally ride mid to higher ram the bike has 19000 miles on it never had and engine issues other than compensator noise in primary fixed with Baker attitude manual chain adjuster.
I bought a used 1992 Fatboy near 20 years ago with around 60,000 miles on it. It ran good for another 10,000 to 15,000 miles. About 10 years ago while in Sturgis during the August Rally, the cylinder studs on the front barrel pulled out. While camping at the Deadwood KOA campground, I pulled the head and barrel off using the picnic table as a workbench. Located a set of Keen inserts, drill and tap for the inserts I re-drilled and taped the cases for the inserts. After installing the inserts firmly in the cases & reassembly I was able to enjoy the last 5 days of the Sturgis Rally. Returning home months later on a short weekend ride with the Wife on the back, The studs pulled out again. We were about 15 miles from home and I removed the front spark plug we turned around and rode the bike back home on the one back cylinder, slow but surely we made it home. After that I simply ordered a brand new EVO crate engine from Harley Davidson and for only $2,999. Dropped that motor in with no problems and it ran perfect then as it does today in 2022. The silver lining to this story is that I sold all of the old engine parts including the cases for $2,500!
Gotta 89 Softail custom had the same break down ,drilled the case and put a roller pin in it? Held up for awhile, then it split to the rear cylinder. J.B. weld and still got a another year, motor had 92,000. Gotta REV-TEC. 100 in. Going on 10 years, 💪🤠
Parts for Evos are plentiful and cheap, they are everywhere too! I you decide you want a little power bump a Andrews EV27 bolt in cam is a awesome Evo cam!
@@GixxerFoo Music to my ears. I just want to cruise, and do it for a long many years. I don't need a beastly beast, just gotta make the sound of that motor smoother and make sure it can keep going and take me where it's pretty. :)
Absolutely. Stupid people want to keep dumping money into a machine to get more out of it and that starts the domino effect., constantly chasing the weak link.
I bought a brand new S&S Evo engine, complete with no carb around 10/2022. Had it in the bike by 12/2022 and used a nos Cv carb (had to be rebuilt because it was still in the original box from 1997). It runs great. It does need a few minutes to warm up with the choke on when you start it but once it's going I have no problems with it.
@@theoneracer2716 I actually checked in to that and did put slightly bigger jets in it. Runs even smoother now, and accelerating has no (not sure of the right word) resistance or you don't get that feeling like it's trying to push but it can't... I think it wasn't getting enough gas.
My '97 Wideglide just turned 42,000 miles this year. I keep a fresh Evo engine on the bench that's a twin to the one I'm running, just in case, but it's showing no signs of having any problems. Took me 25yrs to go from a shovel to an Evo, but I love it. You can keep anything made after that.
@TheYammerHammer that's a trashy statement. One can find low mileage Evo bikes, I just got a super clean '94 FXDWG 80 Evo with only 27k on the odometer. Apparently it was originally a Hells Angels member's bike who passed after he stupidly groped the wrong woman in a bar and got himself slotted by her man.😅 I truly hope to put a gazillion miles on this machine.
I currently have S&S cases on my 97 Evo, the previous owner put them on when the head bolts pulled out. I would probably rebuild and upgrade what I have if ever needed, but the S&S 111 does sound like the most appropriate choice for a new engine. Reliability beats the increased power on the biggest engines.
“Butt ton of horsepower!” Now that I can understand!!! You speaky my lingo. Thanks for doing these. Keep up the good work, and don’t change a thing. You are a pure joy my friend.
Love your content. I work sales at a Harley dealership, and your videos help me a ton with my knowledge of new and used bikes. I share your videos with a bunch of customers depending on what they're asking.
@@GixxerFoo so I am a car guy and just moved to somewhere where I only have space for a bike so I got edumucated in the dark arts so I would still have something to tinker. So much cheaper and less work it is ridiculous. Fear of death really keeps the band wagon small.
Back in the day, I bought a lowrider brand new, but before delivery I spent 7 gs on all S&S upgrades, big bore kit, cam, heads, pistons, flywheel and rods, pipes, carb etc all installed in stock evo cases for an 80 inch. Final cubes were 96" and that bike literally wanted to be airborne constantly! It was a damn missle on the highway and probably the nicest bike I've ever owned. Sadly it was stolen within a year, so now 35 years later I found its clone but its bone stock never been touched with very low miles, I think this time I'm gonna leave it alone and enjoy putting along. I don't street race anymore, no more high speed canyon carving, ain't lookin for a ticket , I'm gonna relax and enjoy the ride👍
Having grown up with my relatives always being loyal to S&S for performance parts it’d be hard for me to choose anything else, not to mention their Knucklehead and Pandemonium engines being the most aesthetically beautiful choices as well as preforming so much better than stock which of course hasn’t been produced in over 50 yrs.
Thanks for the update on Evo’s , I have a ‘97, it’s my youngest bike, the rest are pre ‘56. Sounds like a better way to go when the time comes. The old school bikes I can go through and bring back to life, but all this new stuff and computers, I’m to old 🤪😂😳
My 1998 Evo cases are stamped with a dash 95 casting number indicative of their upgraded castings due to being EFI era motors. These cases are of a MUCH better quality than their predecessors and aren't known for cracking etc like the others were. Just thought I'd share some of this useless information with you guys. Many folks bore out their spigot holes to accommodate a larger bore with no problems. EFFE (Evo's Forever Forever Evo).
Definitely Ultima. I have the El’Bruto 113 in my rigid. It’s been totally reliable and makes BIG power. Once my 80’ wears out, I’m getting an Ultima for that as well.
Ultima is the choice for a lot of drag racers, those motors hold up very well being beat on at the strip. They've done a lot of great things with their cranks using their own design of crank pin.
Had a friend years ago and he had an '02 Roadking. Pumped it up to 95 with all the go fast goodies. Still not fast enough for him. Told him to buy a big jnch crate motor and have fun and leave the 95 incher alone. Didn't listen and tore it apart to build a 109". He at least listened to me about putting in the gear drive cams in this rebuilt motor. After he was finished with the second rebuild he admitted that he should of just bought the crate motor. He could of bought a 120 ultima, 124 s and s and a revtech crate for what he spent on the two rebuilds and ends up with a motor that no one would trust to go cross country on now.
Love the Evo in my 93 Heritage. Has 41,000 miles and honestly runs really good for an old bike. It has had a cam and Jim’s lifters installed. Like your videos a lot. Thanks for the info you put out on all the Harley engines. By the way, I would get a crate engine. From the info you gave it appears to be the best option.
I think I did ok with my Evo for 300 bucks and after chasing down missing parts I have 1200 in it it's the 1998 and my understanding is it is most reliable engine they ever produced,,,I just want a cruiser,, and I fitted it to a 1971 Sportster frame,, wasn't easy but I made it happen
I got my 1995 evo brand new, now has 130,000 on it. I know where all of the miles came from. Ive had a few other bikes over the years but sold them and stuck it out with my evo. I've wanted to swap out the engine with a mild 88 most likely. The issue is, other than age, there aren't any issues with the engine I've got. At the same time, I dont want to wait for a catastrophic failure that leaves me stranded. Probably in a couple more years I'll pull the trigger on a new crate motor.
my dad got the S&S 111 for his heritage springer after it spun a bearing in the bottom end on a stock engine. He had it for less than 1600 miles and it became an expensive paperweight, he contacted S&S and got his warranty and paid to have the second one put in and then 1500 miles later it's already making a ton of noise and has shavings in the oil. S&S told him the second motor didn't get a warranty and kept pushing him around and not honoring an engine with 1500 miles on it. Could just be two bad motors but my dad is religious on break in specs, maintenance, and service on his bike and they basically told him sorry you spent $7000 on two junk motors. Not sure if it's just a problem with the 111 or if my dad just got two duds but it is something definitely worthy of note
@@ditchcatiso the update is about the wildest thing, my dad gave me the bike and we went through all the fluids and did an oil and filter change and now it makes no noise and no shavings and it runs like a dream. I’ve been riding it for a year with literally no problems, I put like 5000 on it and now it’s been a great bike
What about an s&s 106 i have a set of super stock cases can i use my stock evo crank and cylinders and head heads have been flowed and ported bigger valves what do you think i can build with this
I had a 96" Ultima installed years ago, and I have had to only replace the cam, which I replaced with an S&S .585 cam. I didn't need too, but I also replaced the pushrods and lifters with S&S.
I wished I had this crate engine knowledge six months ago. We are almost done with rebuilding the stock engine. After 9k, It is in assembly phase now. Lol. However, on the bright side, I installed the best parts such as Dark Horse fly wheel, tts cam, fueling oil and Cam plate and Baker tensioner etc. Keeping fingers crossed.
S&S stands behind their products, a friend of mine got a bad TC motor from them. Complete engine failure, they sent him a new motor and paid the cost of swapping it over to the new engine. Paid shipping on the new motor and for the failed engine to be sent back, they wanted to know what went wrong in that motor.
Beat the F'in dog snot out of my poor 85 Superglide while in an MC and maintenence was oftentimes overlooked. Rebuilt it once and it's still as reliable as can be.
My Bagger originally came with a S&S bottom 88 Stroker probably 1995 vintage end few years later it was making the weirdest noise. dozens of Harley mechanics listened to it & the noise would travel from one side to the other. Ran awesome. One night I stop at a gas station start it back up went 100' & it shut off ,crank, crank ,crank.... nothing!! until I see the oil puddle forming under me. Exploratory Surgery Found the pinion broke from the steel boss in the case where the bearing rides was cracked & flopping around & basically the entire right side of the engines crank shaft was being held up by the pinion bushing on the cam cover UNTIL the pinion broke. NOW its wall art. with the 2 piece pinion shaft.
Oh damn... that sucks. That was one of those hard part failures that isn't common and you wouldn't of caught it unless you tore the bike down and inspected the internals.
Like you said these days it is easier to get the new engine and do a swap out than do a rebuild. It is the way to go as far as time and money. I learned this from a guy at the auto store twenty years ago when I went to rebuild my front cv joints on my Chevrolet truck 4WD. Rather than buy all of the parts and rebuild it was way easier to buy the assembly and just swap out the entire axle assembly with the cv joint already on it. Four hours later I was done. Most of the after market assemblies use better fasteners and gears, quality of steel. Go with the crate engine that fits your budget. Time and labor is where you save plus no headaches with running into defects found during the rebuild of the old engine.
I was actually at parts counter one day and a guy was looking at Stage 4 kits. This is an awesome dealer, they leveled with him. Told him you can get a 120R or ST and do a swap a lot cheaper and you have a spare motor. Labor to tear down and install plus cost of the kit is way more than a motor swap.
@@semperfipar1299 why would you? Most people build them for the fun. When people go to the moi es or go to a ball game or what ever, do they figure that in? It’s a lot cheaper to build a factory engine then it is to buy a complete motor. And if you buy a Revtech or Ultima motor you’re just killing the value of your bike.
@@tonyparson4392 You know when you do a build cost analysis you are suppose to factor in the cost of your labor. Building for fun is not building for cost and efficiency or quality of the build. There are so many Harleys on the street that Harley itself has pretty much killed the value.
Thanks 👍 I think I would too, by the time you bought a set of aftermarket cases, all the high end parts and got it together you'd be right there with the price of a complete engine. Even then you still wouldn't have warranty on the engine itself.
I agree.After doing some serious reserch it was way cheaper to replace mine in my 98 fat boy over rebuilding the stock motor.And it only had 24k on the motor.I plan to find a classic hard tail for the stock that I took out and make it a project for my grandson and I to build together.I had always enjoyed The late Indian Larry's still and that's kinda what I have a plan for.
@@GixxerFoo Are these older frames and drive trains engineered for 100+hp? I think I would just go with the 80in, since, it's already a substantial increase in power over the original. Thanx for the vid/info!
When I ran my shop for 20 years I have a retired master chief out the Navy do my wedding and critical machinery. Facts he said the best cases he ever welded and repaired were the stk Harley cases and the rev tech cases. Pure good alloy. He said surprisingly the worst seemed to be the S&S. Not saying they were weaker but the alloy has a lot of crap mixed in it. Funny colors came out the alloy while tig welding it which showed impurities on the casting materials. After building parts for aircraft for 39 years welding.. machining and tanning parts I took his word on this
Heh 138 thousand miles on my 93 FXRS LowRider Convertable. Incredibly reliable bike. 2tops. 1Bottom rebuilt. ALL stock. So no stud pulling. I got 50 mph because of it while riding across the US. It's the ride... Not the destination. I do not need to go fast. I just need to get to place to place at my pace.
"New Harley Evolution bikes are better than the original", I wonder... Never met anyone with a high mileage aftermarket engine. I would rather overhaul the original engine block and keep it a Harley.
Just another social media BS sales pitch funded by companies trying to sell their junk. Give away one engine to a guy like this and he’ll hammer out video after video of how good this product really is. When in reality, it’s pure garbage. Most affordable marketing scheme in our world today.
I'm not paid by any company, the Evo cases really do have some issues when you start bumping compression and putting some power in them. Case failures are more common on the drag strip when you're really pushing limits. Getting up to about 90 horse on an Evo is good stopping point, to push above that after market cases are highly recommended. As with anything there are good and bad experiences with aftermarket engines, but at the race track the crate motors have held up pretty well being beat on.
I fully agree for the street with a bike you ride every day and for longevity keeping the factory engine with mild upgrades is the way to go. You wouldn't want to build a 100+ horsepower Evo on the stock cases though, Ultima has stout cases and see them used quite a bit at the drag strip.
I have a 107 ultima in my 87 dresser. after 35k miles a roller lifter seized and damaged the cam. It is very powerful and runs decent. I had a 110k miles on my Harley motor when it went.
@@GixxerFoo Yes we did, I called Mid west cycle who deals with Ultima They gave me a whole 10% off the parts. I was upset. I did not want a 107, but they said it was the smallest one the made at the time. It was about 8-9 years ago.
@@joeharley87 "supposedly" Ultima's quality has gotten better 👌 but I don't believe that. I saw a video on TH-cam from Keenan Tatro that broke down a brand new flywheel assembly and the clearance on the rods wasn't all that, he ended up honing it out and installed oversized rollers. Personally, I'd much rather have a local reputable shop that has all of the appropriate machinery for overhauling it. In my opinion if you desire both power and speed buy a BMW. Just my 2 cents... Here's that "playlist". Go to the 14 minute mark of #101, I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT!!!! th-cam.com/play/PL-BX_Pc-GUyT6C6WMaGVE4QD7J5gB5TBy.html
S&S has been having LOTS of issues with the V111. They have been farming out local shops to address them. I wouldn't own either of these engines...stock Evo in my opinion
I just purchased a Big Dog Ridgeback Chopper. It came with an S&S V111, with the 585 cam, 125 HP (as per S&S stat sheet i have) EVO mounted to a JIMS 6 speed. Engine fires right up every time. Transmission just chugs along at 75 mph. Bike is a blast to drive! Aside from hitting major bumps, of course. 😆
Love your video's! I really enjoy learning different characteristics pros an cons of these Harley engines. I just bought a 2013 Heritage softail with 103 that has 3,298 miles on it. Is this a good engine? Is there any major flaws to this engine that I need to look out for?
Thank you! 2013 with a 103 is one of the best years in twin cam, Harley really seemed to get the bugs worked out of it by then. They had some compensator issues in previous years, only thing with the 103 is the pressed cranks. More often than not they are solid reliable, they run for years without issue but every now again you'll hear a story of a crank spinning. Mostly due to putting a lot of power on the stock crank and really beating on it.
@@GixxerFoo okay, i seen your video talking about the crank spinning. You could weld the stock crank or replace it with a better after market one?. Im going to watch it again lol, thanks brother
3k miles ain't even broke in. Maintain it and ride it. Same motor in 2012 and it's over 75k miles. Mobil 1 oil every 5k. That crank problem is no problem unless beat on (As Foo says) and especially if you engine brake hard just to rattle the neighbors windows. Harley compensators in this era SUCKED. When you need a new one... and you will..install a Darkhorse ManOWar compensator. Watch video on YT. And thank me later. Oh...and I installed a Hayden chain tensioner. Harley's auto chain tensioner ain't great. Good Luck
@@silentshadow7625 I was going to mention manual primary tensioner but Doug said it. Yes Man O War compensator, manual tensioner and if get major run out on crank pins, you and get trued by Dark Horse. 👍
Hi.. how do I identify which make aftermarket evo engine I have. It's definately not a harley.. I can't find any branding stamped on the motor. Can someone please help me identify what make motor I have. Thanks man .
I would try running a quick good search on the engine VIN and see what pops up there. Should be some numbers on the cases, there's a lot of possibilities there if it's an aftermarket engine or maybe built with some aftermarket cases.
Exactly. My 96 Electra glide 46k. It has a Andrew's ev27 cam and screaming Eagle true duels on it. The best balanced big ass bike I rode. Ever. Love it
Some information on the aftermarket offerings might be outdated. I checked the Revtech website and they do not list the 88 and 100 ci engines; discontinued? The Ultima website now has a 140 ci Evo.
@@GixxerFoo You ain't kidding about supply chain troubles. Not only has Covid reeked havoc but so did the Texas freeze from last January. Add in a couple crop shortages, people unwilling to go back to work, etc. and we have the quagmire we are stuck in right now. I just figured that Revtech mentioning all the other engines being sold out but not even listing the 88 and 100 suggested they were discontinued.
Those two me are the best options for a Evo replacement. The V80 is very solid motor and produces great power. Lol the V111 that things going to burn through some tires.
What sort of mileage would a bike have done to need a rebuild or replacement engine? But I take your point and can see what the advantage of the replacement engines and price is good compared to price of spares, crank regrind, reborn etc.
It really depends what kind of condition the engine is in with the mileage. A Evo can have 150k miles and still have good compression and low oil consumption. The latter one can be clapped out at 60k miles burning oil and knocking. Really depends on how it was taken care of in its life and a little bit of luck with the mechanicals.
HD does it with every motor. Once it's been in production long enough to find and fix all the bug , they replace it with a different motor! Some years had bad castings. The last 3-4 years were the best ones quality wise.
Yeah with S&S I think I would go with the V80 and call it a day over the V111. There's a lot to be said about longevity and not sorting out issues all the time.
@@thomasheer825 EVO engines are meant to run to and beyond 100k. I'd say most folks don't really care to keep a bike past 40k, but Harley fans are different.
@@Shastar271828 Yea I hear about those bikes all the time, but when you try and actually lay eyes on one they seem to evaporate into the either. Another one would be the true the clock shows 100k with routine repairs. Then you ask them what the repairs were, and usually it is a piece by piece overhaul done in 10k increments. Sorry at one time I actually worked on Harleys, but got fed up with them.
Hey l worked for Mercruiser in Stillwater years ago, when they casted for Harley that was before my time. They also built the Zr1 vette motors at plant in Stilly.
I remember he had one and had some issues. Friend of mine had a V111 blow up, new motor too. S&S covered all costs or R&R and shipping, refunded some cash too. They wanted that motor back to find out what went wrong, second motor ran like a top though.
Dumbest mistake I ever made was selling my 87 FXRC. I put 88,000 miles on it and it was the most reliable high mileage bike I’ve owned. Milled the the heads 50 thousand, a little bit of porting, factory CHP ignition, and a mild cam. And yes, it put out more than the factory clutch could handle. Great strong running bike
Having grown up with my relatives always being loyal to S&S for performance parts it’d be hard for me to choose anything else, not to mention their Knucklehead and Pandemonium engines being the most aesthetically beautiful choices as well as preforming so much better than stock which of course hasn’t been produced in over 50 yrs. speaking of obsolete engines Flathead Power makes 1200cc crate motors for those interested. Makes me wish I had my Gramps’s old WLA with the 74” flywheel in it, was the 1st Harley I ever got to ride after I learnt on my beat up Honda xl 125. Just wish HD would supply S&S engines stock, it’d make for a much better product
That’s one of the problems I had with my S&S 124. It took S&S almost a year to warranty my 124. I took my mostly stock 80 inch EVO out of my Fatboy. I had a 124 put into it. The day we started it up the brand new oil started returning from my engine to my oil bag with silver running all through it. S&S said drain the oil change the filter and flush the system before putting new oil in it. I did all of this and when I started it back up the new oil started to turn silver again. From that point on it took almost a year to get a new motor and get it installed. That pretty much made me a bit gun shy of S&S motors….
2007 has the hydraulic setup which is much more reliable, I'd be inspecting around the 30K mile range and plan on a replacement around 40k miles. Some bikes need replacement and others go some insane miles without needing replacement. Always better safe than sorry when it comes to the tensioner system.
I had a 02 Fatboy, my cam chain followers went @ 40k. installed a s,s 510 gear drive cams. With adj.push rods. Best choice I ever made ..Now your cam chest is bullet proof.
Being a new build 90 Electra glide Evo s&s trans fabric( Midwest cycle new nos 2003) fxst Softail, nos parts for shocks etc, etc. Putting it together at Christmas for my Nephew to ride with me think it will be alright, may have to ask about an issue hope not, been doing my homework, it's from the ground up,,, thanks for all all the great info have a Great Christmas, I listen to your every word for the wisdom you choose to share, thank's
I'm currently rebuilding my s&s113ci, dyno a few years ago was 118hp & 124ftlb.. I'm changing the camshaft, lifters, pushrods, rockers and valves to try and push the bike up to 130hp, ish.
Installed S&S in 99 evo whjen the crank bearing gave way. Never looked back. But I wouldn't hesitate to buy the American made Revtech. 75k on 2012 Glide. I plan on getting a lot more. Then discuss crate. Only way to go. I'm a Harley guy. But I ride a great grandfather of the GXSR. A GS850GX. Good talk.
For all of the custom bikes my partner and I built, we exclusively used the RevTech from Custom Chrome. And we used the 4X4 exclusively, and swapped out the garbage Mikuni for the S&S Super 'G'. And of course we would rejet the carb accordingly. NEVER a problem with the RevTech. The S&S engines we tried weren't balanced as good as the RevTechs are. Just some fyi.
That's awesome to hear some positive about the RevTech engines! They all have their good and bad points but in the end they are pretty reliable. S&S carbs are a lot better than the Mikuni, just some aren't willing to pay the price for the S&S.
@@GixxerFoo Mr. GixxerFoo, Sir, Why do you say that the S&S is better than the Mikuni? Are you speaking of a CV Mikuni or the HSR compared to an S&S? I have the 42mm Mikuni HSR on my 98" Road Star and it's resulted in INSTANT throttle response compared to the stock CV Mikuni took out. And yes, I understand that that is not an S&S to Mikuni comparison. But that said, I've pretty much always heard that the Flat Slide Mikuni is superior to any of the S&S carbs for Harley applications, whether Evo or Twin Cam. I even have a direct quote from a truly legendary CNC motor builder and racer saying that the S&S is "a good tomato soup can compared to the Mikuni HSR." Would you care to elaborate on your thoughts on the above and why you prefer the S&S? Thanks as always for superb analysis videos! From southern California ~ Ride Forever!
I went with the S&S V 111 when I restored my 1993 FXR down to the frame. Runs great & strong throughout the whole power band. Shipped to my house I payed $5k. Was a plug & play install. Installed a Thunderjet on the Super E & a 34 tooth tranny pully & a BDL kevlar clutch & a 2into 1 Hacker War Header.Everything is working together perfectly runs alot cooler than my 96 TC.
@@TheYammerHammer LOL @ the time, I pulled my 2nd rod on my 80" & called S&S to get some info on their 80". Long story short they told me to get the V111 that they were running a sale on the V111 & would be cheaper vs the 80" in black. So I bought it from a company in Georgia for $4800 plus $250 for shipping.
@@robertrodriguez2412 of course they told you to buy a new motor. They're a business that's what they do. Sorry you were unable to work on your motor that sucks. I guess it's just more business for me
I'm considering a107 or 113 ultima engine for my 98 road king classic. My question is about the transmission.will this engine run down the road ok with the stock 5 speed? I'm aware a six speed would be better and have plans to do just that. However I'm an old dude on a tight budget.
very informative and well done. I have a crate S&S Evo V-96 with Super E carb. I think the crankcase being vented into the carb is not the best way to go. any thoughts on re-routing ? I just pulled my air cleaner after 300 mi, and had oil pooling.
Need advise ,, looking on upgrade cam for my 103 cubic , personal like tongue cam ,,, pls suggest what cam to goes with ,,, prefect bolt in cam ,, cheaper cost ,,,, will it’s be better exhaust sound after installing cam ? Thx in advance and stay safe mate
The bike will sound and run a lot better with a cam, you'll get a bit more lump in the idle with the higher lift. Where are looking for your power to come on at? That would really determine what kind of cam you're after, also do you ride a softail, dyna or touring bike?
@CHEONG FOO Have you checked out the S&S 583? It's made for the Dyna and Softails, lots of power down in the mid and low. It also pulls really well up into the high rpm range. Here's the video on 103 cams th-cam.com/video/ixeV1wRzsoY/w-d-xo.html lot's of graphs and some of the best power producing cams out there.
Years ago when I was building my FXR I sent the triple trees out to be chromed. Got them back and installed them no problem. A couple of years later the police were inspecting bikes and found my lower tree was from a stolen bike so they impounded my bike. I got the bike back the next day but I had to get a new lower tree and have it re-inspected..
I got a Moco crate ( when they were still available) for my Heritage - the original one had lower end molested too much. Nothing special I must say, esp. comparing to my 98 FLTRI ( converted to a carb of course). That one really pulls - I think later EFI evos were pretty good. Those were dino figures, not just gearing. But hey, it's a softail, doesn't hafta pull hard. So the moral? Both have been reliable and well prooven, ill just change the rings when needed, rebore when measurements are outa spec, repeat. When Im outta bore sizes - buy new jugs, repeat 😁
Thank you, Agreed! Crate motors are awesome for Evo engines, they fixed the factory issues and got some power out of them. Still very reliable engines too!
I have a question, Make that several. Did the Evo motor use caged roller bearings or plane on the crank shaft? Did the Evo use timken bearing on the output shaft and pinion shaft? How about the Rev-tech and Ultima. Also what happened to s&s's X motor witch if I remember didn't fit directly into a Harley frame. I am a little disappointed that you didn't mention my V-rod motor as the best. I know Harley doesn't make them any more ether cause they don't wear out! Another great video Thanks
All the 45 degree Harleys use the roller bearing bottom ends, before 2003 the bottom ends were timken tapered roller bearings on the pinion and output shafts. Revtech and Ultima use a tapered roller bearing bottom end, that's the strongest you can get for a Harley Vtwin. I believe S&S discontinued those motors a while ago, they've done a lot of changes to their engine line up. I've got some videos on the Vrod in the works, it's a solid engine platform that actually came out of the late 80's.
@@GixxerFoo Kool I'll be waiting on those V-rod videos. I'm planning on changing the triple tree on my 03 VRSC-A model from a 4% to a 2%. I purchased one off of a wrecked 06-D model that I located this last spring I believe this should make it more stable at speed and more nimble in turns. But that's a project for this winter. Mike from Maryland
@@GixxerFoo They started changing the angle of the trees in the 06 D model from 4 degree to 2 degree. I'm guessing you know the trail increases with each degree in the frame neck and is decreased by each degree added to the triple tree. There were various combinations after that but they started with 34 degrees in the frame and 4 degrees in the tree effectively giving it a slow versachieve a nimble bike that's stable at 140 mph. Thanks again Mike from Maryland. P.S. I'll be able to fill you in next spring.
Now a days ultima is supposed to be pretty good. The cases are cast in the USA and it is assembled here too. I haven't had one but I road a friend's bike that had a 120 something and damn was it a bad ass. Can't say much for longevity because he don't ride much but so far so good
Im looking at my first harley. On a budget. I have on problem with a older evo. And now thatvi know that these crate engines are available definitely made my decision
If you went with a high powered crate engine a high performance compensator or eliminator would be a good idea. You'd also want to upgrade to a performance clutch as well, transmissions will handle a lot if you're just cruising and getting in the throttle time to time. That's a great question, getting those items upgraded will make the setup a lot more reliable.
Hey man, I finally got all my parts in to do my comp eliminator and chain tensioner job on my 09 Heritage, now its so hot gotta wait til fall to do the work lol Right afterwards I am putting on a hi flow filter and intake and a Thundermax tuner. I cant believe it took me 9 months to source everything but I am lookin forward to doing the work.....well maybe not doing the work, but I am looking forward to finishing the work lol
The end product is always the best part! Yeah getting parts in right now is tough after all the shut downs last year. Man that bike is gonna run damn good with that Thundermax on there, those eliminators are awesome. You won't have to worry about compensator problems ever again!
usually with a evo thats got 80 -100k on it your fitst rebuild ( if you keep it stock ish) you can just plain the heads bore the cylinders , lap the valve and put a new carb on. then youll get another 60- 80k before you have to split the cases but after that a crate engine isnt a bad idea cause your buying cases / crank anyway.
I had an Ultima El Bruto 127” in my fxr, it broke a roller rocker and had to import a set from Australia (I’m in the U.K.) Ultima didn’t even reply to my emails enquiring about parts availability. If you’re in the U.K. forget Ultima go S&S every time.
Well for a Harley they are reliable but for practically any other brand they are short lived and underpowered. Sorry I have a very old used Goldwing that has over 100k and runs like new and it shocked me when I had a buddy with a hopped up HD bagger and I thought I would get my clock cleaned when we did a 1 mile WFO run. Well my Old Wing, as I call it, is stone stock basically didn't take him out of the hole but after that he might as well shut it down. We then did the same with my BMW R1150RT, 2004, with 80k on the clock and it wasn't even a race as the RT can pull a healthy hole shot, and due to a 300lb weight advantage helped. If you want to cruise and don't plan to put a shitload of miles the HD is a fun bike but it isn't the Holy Grail for power and longevity.
Richard ignore the haters... i have owned 8 of the 127's in bikes i currently have one in my 1998 bagger which has been in it for 10 years. They run a H beam con rod all the others run an i beam which is weaker.. Bee hive valve springs, Mahle pistons, Johnston lifters, all good gear.. only issues i have seen in 20 years working on these is Lifter failure that can result in cam damage.... People crap on how their factory 80ci ran for 100 thousand miles... the simple fact is its making 40hp has piss weak valve springs and baby cam... The lifter failure is caused by the massive cam and valve springs used in Ultimas which is required to produce the 120+ rear wheel horsepower... I am replacing lifters in a customers bike today as part of routine maintenance engine is 10 years old... Any brand engine will wear lifters if it has a huge cam and strong valve springs... and if you rev the tits off it and bounce the valves your going to kill the lifters sooner... i run my rev limiter at 6000 and ride it pretty hard but i am also going to do lifters in mine pretty soon... small price to pay for triple the HP over 10 years...
@@harryavdoulos4029 curious as to fuel mileage on the 127 for a highway bike, I know there are many variables but big power doesnt neccessarily have to compromise fuel economy
@@thomasborger6548 no idea Thomas it's never crossed my mind as if i wanted Fuel economy i would have kept the original 1340 instead of almost doubling the engine size. i am certainly not filling it every 5 minutes and i believe at times it could use less as it doesn't have to work as hard to move the heavy bagger so light throttle acceleration could be as good if not better but when you keep grabbing and handful it will drink more...
@@harryavdoulos4029 fair enough answer, one of my bikes is an anemic almost stock motor and delivers neither power nor economy, another bike has very good power tho not comparable to your 127 and has quite reasonable fuel mileage hence my strange question directed at you.
I have no reason to make hot rods out of my Evos. 75 horespower is plenty. I have had my Softails as fast as I wanted to go, but never as fast as they would go.
A shovelhead , I like your videos but I still don’t understand why a Two cylinder engine would run on average 5 grand. Evo’s are great I’ve owned a few but I’ll stick with my Shovels.
Also if they change the motor, that changes the vin #. So,I just rebuilt,.my,70 shovel and tyranny , and kept it original and keeping the orginin vin, plus the value would be shit if changing the motor
Would you go all out rebuilding your stock engine or go with a new complete crate engine?
Yep, when my current '88 tc tanks, I will consider a new crate engine. At the moment it has 150K km on it with a dyno run tune giving it 80 hp[no tq info available] so hopefully it will run some more km's😀
If it wasn't for racing I would buya S&S for the performance and reliability aspects. They have done all the work!
I’d probably just gut the existing engine. My evo is a springer and I think the stock evo is a perfect, ‘correct’ fit to a bike like that. If I want something faster, I’d just buy another bike, but these crates are super impressive.
No worries with a new engine, well most times.
@@GixxerFoo Could you suggest a good cam for a 2013 ultra limited, I have a 2 into1 Bassanl exhaust k&n filter vision plus tuner? I am looking to get a good sound at idle and normally ride mid to higher ram the bike has 19000 miles on it never had and engine issues other than compensator noise in primary fixed with Baker attitude manual chain adjuster.
I bought a used 1992 Fatboy near 20 years ago with around 60,000 miles on it. It ran good for another 10,000 to 15,000 miles. About 10 years ago while in Sturgis during the August Rally, the cylinder studs on the front barrel pulled out. While camping at the Deadwood KOA campground, I pulled the head and barrel off using the picnic table as a workbench. Located a set of Keen inserts, drill and tap for the inserts I re-drilled and taped the cases for the inserts. After installing the inserts firmly in the cases & reassembly I was able to enjoy the last 5 days of the Sturgis Rally. Returning home months later on a short weekend ride with the Wife on the back, The studs pulled out again. We were about 15 miles from home and I removed the front spark plug we turned around and rode the bike back home on the one back cylinder, slow but surely we made it home. After that I simply ordered a brand new EVO crate engine from Harley Davidson and for only $2,999. Dropped that motor in with no problems and it ran perfect then as it does today in 2022. The silver lining to this story is that I sold all of the old engine parts including the cases for $2,500!
Gotta 89 Softail custom had the same break down ,drilled the case and put a roller pin in it? Held up for awhile, then it split to the rear cylinder. J.B. weld and still got a another year, motor had 92,000. Gotta REV-TEC. 100 in. Going on 10 years, 💪🤠
Evo engines are crazy easy (and fairly cheap) to rebuild. I'm perfectly fine with the original horse power. I bought mine to cruise on, not to race.
Parts for Evos are plentiful and cheap, they are everywhere too! I you decide you want a little power bump a Andrews EV27 bolt in cam is a awesome Evo cam!
@@GixxerFoo Music to my ears. I just want to cruise, and do it for a long many years. I don't need a beastly beast, just gotta make the sound of that motor smoother and make sure it can keep going and take me where it's pretty. :)
You Sir are 100%CORRECT!
Absolutely. Stupid people want to keep dumping money into a machine to get more out of it and that starts the domino effect., constantly chasing the weak link.
Nice... I am gaining so much information just reading the replies
👍 ty everyone
I bought a brand new S&S Evo engine, complete with no carb around 10/2022. Had it in the bike by 12/2022 and used a nos Cv carb (had to be rebuilt because it was still in the original box from 1997). It runs great. It does need a few minutes to warm up with the choke on when you start it but once it's going I have no problems with it.
Mind me asking how much you pay for the evo s&s?
@@neveragain9380I bought it without a carb just the plain motor at that time it was 4800
@@benzielke7149from where and what size engine?
Try jetying the nos carb correctly
@@theoneracer2716 I actually checked in to that and did put slightly bigger jets in it. Runs even smoother now, and accelerating has no (not sure of the right word) resistance or you don't get that feeling like it's trying to push but it can't... I think it wasn't getting enough gas.
My 103 has 92000 miles...still going strong. Regular fluid changes and rode hard. Cheers brothers👍🍻
That's awesome to hear! That is just proof that not all the TC motors have issues!
Mine is about to roll over 57,000, I swapped my cam chain tensioner shoes at 54,000. Had .0035 crank runout. Still going strong!!
92,000 wow that's a lot of riding
Man I love my 97 fatboy. Slow and all it’s just pure class on two wheels. I would not trade it for a brand new bike.
My '97 Wideglide just turned 42,000 miles this year.
I keep a fresh Evo engine on the bench that's a twin to the one I'm running, just in case, but it's showing no signs of having any problems.
Took me 25yrs to go from a shovel to an Evo, but I love it.
You can keep anything made after that.
42,000 on an Evo isn't shit dude! Stop feeding us full of horseshit
@TheYammerHammer that's a trashy statement. One can find low mileage Evo bikes, I just got a super clean '94 FXDWG 80 Evo with only 27k on the odometer. Apparently it was originally a Hells Angels member's bike who passed after he stupidly groped the wrong woman in a bar and got himself slotted by her man.😅 I truly hope to put a gazillion miles on this machine.
@@TheYammerHammer
What crawled up your sweet ass??
I currently have S&S cases on my 97 Evo, the previous owner put them on when the head bolts pulled out. I would probably rebuild and upgrade what I have if ever needed, but the S&S 111 does sound like the most appropriate choice for a new engine. Reliability beats the increased power on the biggest engines.
“Butt ton of horsepower!” Now that I can understand!!! You speaky my lingo. Thanks for doing these. Keep up the good work, and don’t change a thing. You are a pure joy my friend.
Thank you, I appreciate it!
Don't listen to this guy. Evolutions are the worst motors ever don't buy them buy Milwaukee eights and twin cans
@@TheYammerHammer haaaa😂
Love your content. I work sales at a Harley dealership, and your videos help me a ton with my knowledge of new and used bikes. I share your videos with a bunch of customers depending on what they're asking.
For me the evo is fantastic exactly because it is rebuildable by me. Both by way of ability and wallet. The hobby aspect.
It's awesome how much more inexpensive the Evo parts are these days compared to the Twin Cam!
@@GixxerFoo so I am a car guy and just moved to somewhere where I only have space for a bike so I got edumucated in the dark arts so I would still have something to tinker. So much cheaper and less work it is ridiculous. Fear of death really keeps the band wagon small.
Back in the day, I bought a lowrider brand new, but before delivery I spent 7 gs on all S&S upgrades, big bore kit, cam, heads, pistons, flywheel and rods, pipes, carb etc all installed in stock evo cases for an 80 inch. Final cubes were 96" and that bike literally wanted to be airborne constantly!
It was a damn missle on the highway and probably the nicest bike I've ever owned. Sadly it was stolen within a year, so now 35 years later I found its clone but its bone stock never been touched with very low miles, I think this time I'm gonna leave it alone and enjoy putting along. I don't street race anymore, no more high speed canyon carving, ain't lookin for a ticket , I'm gonna relax and enjoy the ride👍
Having grown up with my relatives always being loyal to S&S for performance parts it’d be hard for me to choose anything else, not to mention their Knucklehead and Pandemonium engines being the most aesthetically beautiful choices as well as preforming so much better than stock which of course hasn’t been produced in over 50 yrs.
I bought my S&S96ci in 2012 , I ride it daily. It is a trouble-free engine. I do about 5000 miles a year, I just love it!
Thanks for the update on Evo’s , I have a ‘97, it’s my youngest bike, the rest are pre ‘56. Sounds like a better way to go when the time comes. The old school bikes I can go through and bring back to life, but all this new stuff and computers, I’m to old 🤪😂😳
That 97 Evo is still pretty easy to work on!
My 1998 Evo cases are stamped with a dash 95 casting number indicative of their upgraded castings due to being EFI era motors. These cases are of a MUCH better quality than their predecessors and aren't known for cracking etc like the others were. Just thought I'd share some of this useless information with you guys. Many folks bore out their spigot holes to accommodate a larger bore with no problems. EFFE (Evo's Forever Forever Evo).
I’ve had both built up 80” and SS 111. Both make you smile. 😁💪🏻🔥🇺🇸
Those motors are a lot of fun with some serious power, it's just the way they deliver it that you can't get from anything else.
Definitely Ultima. I have the El’Bruto 113 in my rigid. It’s been totally reliable and makes BIG power. Once my 80’ wears out, I’m getting an Ultima for that as well.
Ultima is the choice for a lot of drag racers, those motors hold up very well being beat on at the strip. They've done a lot of great things with their cranks using their own design of crank pin.
@@GixxerFoo I can see why! It never seems to quit pulling. It's way too much engine for a rigid though. Hind sight.
Had a friend years ago and he had an '02 Roadking. Pumped it up to 95 with all the go fast goodies. Still not fast enough for him. Told him to buy a big jnch crate motor and have fun and leave the 95 incher alone. Didn't listen and tore it apart to build a 109". He at least listened to me about putting in the gear drive cams in this rebuilt motor. After he was finished with the second rebuild he admitted that he should of just bought the crate motor. He could of bought a 120 ultima, 124 s and s and a revtech crate for what he spent on the two rebuilds and ends up with a motor that no one would trust to go cross country on now.
Love the Evo in my 93 Heritage. Has 41,000 miles and honestly runs really good for an old bike. It has had a cam and Jim’s lifters installed. Like your videos a lot. Thanks for the info you put out on all the Harley engines. By the way, I would get a crate engine. From the info you gave it appears to be the best option.
I think I did ok with my Evo for 300 bucks and after chasing down missing parts I have 1200 in it it's the 1998 and my understanding is it is most reliable engine they ever produced,,,I just want a cruiser,, and I fitted it to a 1971 Sportster frame,, wasn't easy but I made it happen
300 bucks isn't bad at all for Sportster engine! They usually want a grand for one that's not even complete.
I got my 1995 evo brand new, now has 130,000 on it. I know where all of the miles came from. Ive had a few other bikes over the years but sold them and stuck it out with my evo.
I've wanted to swap out the engine with a mild 88 most likely. The issue is, other than age, there aren't any issues with the engine I've got. At the same time, I dont want to wait for a catastrophic failure that leaves me stranded. Probably in a couple more years I'll pull the trigger on a new crate motor.
my dad got the S&S 111 for his heritage springer after it spun a bearing in the bottom end on a stock engine. He had it for less than 1600 miles and it became an expensive paperweight, he contacted S&S and got his warranty and paid to have the second one put in and then 1500 miles later it's already making a ton of noise and has shavings in the oil. S&S told him the second motor didn't get a warranty and kept pushing him around and not honoring an engine with 1500 miles on it. Could just be two bad motors but my dad is religious on break in specs, maintenance, and service on his bike and they basically told him sorry you spent $7000 on two junk motors. Not sure if it's just a problem with the 111 or if my dad just got two duds but it is something definitely worthy of note
Now stories like this scare me. I thought S&S were the best and you paid for them NOT to have that exact problem. Any update?
@@ditchcatiso the update is about the wildest thing, my dad gave me the bike and we went through all the fluids and did an oil and filter change and now it makes no noise and no shavings and it runs like a dream. I’ve been riding it for a year with literally no problems, I put like 5000 on it and now it’s been a great bike
What about an s&s 106 i have a set of super stock cases can i use my stock evo crank and cylinders and head heads have been flowed and ported bigger valves what do you think i can build with this
I had a 96" Ultima installed years ago, and I have had to only replace the cam, which I replaced with an S&S .585 cam. I didn't need too, but I also replaced the pushrods and lifters with S&S.
Ultima motors are pretty good, you see a lot of them out at the drag strip.
I wished I had this crate engine knowledge six months ago. We are almost done with rebuilding the stock engine. After 9k, It is in assembly phase now. Lol. However, on the bright side, I installed the best parts such as Dark Horse fly wheel, tts cam, fueling oil and Cam plate and Baker tensioner etc. Keeping fingers crossed.
Sounds like you've put the goods in it! Shouldn't be any worries there!
I put an SNS110 in a trike what what a job the people were super nice over the phone and walk me through everything. Thank you SNS
S&S stands behind their products, a friend of mine got a bad TC motor from them. Complete engine failure, they sent him a new motor and paid the cost of swapping it over to the new engine. Paid shipping on the new motor and for the failed engine to be sent back, they wanted to know what went wrong in that motor.
Beat the F'in dog snot out of my poor 85 Superglide while in an MC and maintenence was oftentimes overlooked.
Rebuilt it once and it's still as reliable as can be.
Ive sold and installed and used MANY Ultima engines and they have been bulletproof. They also stand behind their products.
I have an 99 fxst softail standard, 80 inch, 13k miles on it, is there any upgrade options avalible except replacing it with an new motor?
Absolutely, there are cam swaps and big bore kits available for Evo engines. The parts are really inexpensive compared to the new stuff!
My Bagger originally came with a S&S bottom 88 Stroker probably 1995 vintage end few years later it was making the weirdest noise. dozens of Harley mechanics listened to it & the noise would travel from one side to the other. Ran awesome. One night I stop at a gas station start it back up went 100' & it shut off ,crank, crank ,crank.... nothing!! until I see the oil puddle forming under me. Exploratory Surgery Found the pinion broke from the steel boss in the case where the bearing rides was cracked & flopping around & basically the entire right side of the engines crank shaft was being held up by the pinion bushing on the cam cover UNTIL the pinion broke. NOW its wall art. with the 2 piece pinion shaft.
Oh damn... that sucks. That was one of those hard part failures that isn't common and you wouldn't of caught it unless you tore the bike down and inspected the internals.
@@GixxerFoo yea for sure. Go till it blows. I have a S&S 88 back in there.Just one of those things. Id know that sound if i heard it again!! Lmao.
Like you said these days it is easier to get the new engine and do a swap out than do a rebuild. It is the way to go as far as time and money. I learned this from a guy at the auto store twenty years ago when I went to rebuild my front cv joints on my Chevrolet truck 4WD. Rather than buy all of the parts and rebuild it was way easier to buy the assembly and just swap out the entire axle assembly with the cv joint already on it. Four hours later I was done. Most of the after market assemblies use better fasteners and gears, quality of steel. Go with the crate engine that fits your budget. Time and labor is where you save plus no headaches with running into defects found during the rebuild of the old engine.
I was actually at parts counter one day and a guy was looking at Stage 4 kits. This is an awesome dealer, they leveled with him. Told him you can get a 120R or ST and do a swap a lot cheaper and you have a spare motor. Labor to tear down and install plus cost of the kit is way more than a motor swap.
A lot of guys never factor in the cost of their own labor. Time saved.
@@semperfipar1299 why would you? Most people build them for the fun. When people go to the moi es or go to a ball game or what ever, do they figure that in? It’s a lot cheaper to build a factory engine then it is to buy a complete motor. And if you buy a Revtech or Ultima motor you’re just killing the value of your bike.
@@tonyparson4392 You know when you do a build cost analysis you are suppose to factor in the cost of your labor. Building for fun is not building for cost and efficiency or quality of the build. There are so many Harleys on the street that Harley itself has pretty much killed the value.
I paid almost 10k for my S&S crate 96 cube but I also added Andrews gears and that is a super strong engine.
I would just go with the crate engine before rebuilding the old EVO, nicely done brother💯👊🏽😎
Thanks 👍 I think I would too, by the time you bought a set of aftermarket cases, all the high end parts and got it together you'd be right there with the price of a complete engine. Even then you still wouldn't have warranty on the engine itself.
@@GixxerFoo truth brother💯
I agree.After doing some serious reserch it was way cheaper to replace mine in my 98 fat boy over rebuilding the stock motor.And it only had 24k on the motor.I plan to find a classic hard tail for the stock that I took out and make it a project for my grandson and I to build together.I had always enjoyed The late Indian Larry's still and that's kinda what I have a plan for.
Because you don't know how to rebuild an EVO dummy
@@GixxerFoo Are these older frames and drive trains engineered for 100+hp? I think I would just go with the 80in, since, it's already a substantial increase in power over the original. Thanx for the vid/info!
When I ran my shop for 20 years I have a retired master chief out the Navy do my wedding and critical machinery. Facts he said the best cases he ever welded and repaired were the stk Harley cases and the rev tech cases. Pure good alloy. He said surprisingly the worst seemed to be the S&S. Not saying they were weaker but the alloy has a lot of crap mixed in it. Funny colors came out the alloy while tig welding it which showed impurities on the casting materials. After building parts for aircraft for 39 years welding.. machining and tanning parts I took his word on this
Heh 138 thousand miles on my 93 FXRS LowRider Convertable. Incredibly reliable bike.
2tops. 1Bottom rebuilt. ALL stock. So no stud pulling. I got 50 mph because of it while riding across the US.
It's the ride... Not the destination. I do not need to go fast. I just need to get to place to place at my pace.
Just wondering if a water injection can be put into a harley to clean the carbon out of the combustion chamber aka top of piston and head
There's actually a lot of people that do that, you use a top cylinder cleaner now and again to clean the top of the pistons.
"New Harley Evolution bikes are better than the original", I wonder...
Never met anyone with a high mileage aftermarket engine.
I would rather overhaul the original engine block and keep it a Harley.
bingo
Just another social media BS sales pitch funded by companies trying to sell their junk.
Give away one engine to a guy like this and he’ll hammer out video after video of how good this product really is. When in reality, it’s pure garbage.
Most affordable marketing scheme in our world today.
I'm not paid by any company, the Evo cases really do have some issues when you start bumping compression and putting some power in them. Case failures are more common on the drag strip when you're really pushing limits. Getting up to about 90 horse on an Evo is good stopping point, to push above that after market cases are highly recommended. As with anything there are good and bad experiences with aftermarket engines, but at the race track the crate motors have held up pretty well being beat on.
I fully agree for the street with a bike you ride every day and for longevity keeping the factory engine with mild upgrades is the way to go. You wouldn't want to build a 100+ horsepower Evo on the stock cases though, Ultima has stout cases and see them used quite a bit at the drag strip.
@@GixxerFoo Not a lot of miles are ridden on racing tracks and drag strips.
I love your channel, learning so much. Thanks for your infomation.
You are so welcome!
I have a 107 ultima in my 87 dresser. after 35k miles a roller lifter seized and damaged the cam. It is very powerful and runs decent. I had a 110k miles on my Harley motor when it went.
That's a hell of a motor to replace the stock one with, sucks about the lifter though. Were you able to replace the cam and lifters to save the motor?
@@GixxerFoo Yes we did, I called Mid west cycle who deals with Ultima They gave me a whole 10% off the parts. I was upset. I did not want a 107, but they said it was the smallest one the made at the time. It was about 8-9 years ago.
@@joeharley87 "supposedly" Ultima's quality has gotten better 👌 but I don't believe that. I saw a video on TH-cam from Keenan Tatro that broke down a brand new flywheel assembly and the clearance on the rods wasn't all that, he ended up honing it out and installed oversized rollers. Personally, I'd much rather have a local reputable shop that has all of the appropriate machinery for overhauling it. In my opinion if you desire both power and speed buy a BMW. Just my 2 cents... Here's that "playlist". Go to the 14 minute mark of #101, I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!
th-cam.com/play/PL-BX_Pc-GUyT6C6WMaGVE4QD7J5gB5TBy.html
S&S has been having LOTS of issues with the V111. They have been farming out local shops to address them. I wouldn't own either of these engines...stock Evo in my opinion
@@kennethwise7108where could I get more info on the S&S problems?
I just purchased a Big Dog Ridgeback Chopper.
It came with an S&S V111, with the 585 cam, 125 HP (as per S&S stat sheet i have) EVO mounted to a JIMS 6 speed. Engine fires right up every time. Transmission just chugs along at 75 mph.
Bike is a blast to drive! Aside from hitting major bumps, of course. 😆
Love your video's! I really enjoy learning different characteristics pros an cons of these Harley engines. I just bought a 2013 Heritage softail with 103 that has 3,298 miles on it. Is this a good engine? Is there any major flaws to this engine that I need to look out for?
Thank you! 2013 with a 103 is one of the best years in twin cam, Harley really seemed to get the bugs worked out of it by then. They had some compensator issues in previous years, only thing with the 103 is the pressed cranks. More often than not they are solid reliable, they run for years without issue but every now again you'll hear a story of a crank spinning. Mostly due to putting a lot of power on the stock crank and really beating on it.
@@GixxerFoo okay, i seen your video talking about the crank spinning. You could weld the stock crank or replace it with a better after market one?. Im going to watch it again lol, thanks brother
3k miles ain't even broke in. Maintain it and ride it. Same motor in 2012 and it's over 75k miles. Mobil 1 oil every 5k.
That crank problem is no problem unless beat on (As Foo says) and especially if you engine brake hard just to rattle the neighbors windows.
Harley compensators in this era SUCKED. When you need a new one... and you will..install a Darkhorse ManOWar compensator. Watch video on YT. And thank me later.
Oh...and I installed a Hayden chain tensioner. Harley's auto chain tensioner ain't great. Good Luck
@@silentshadow7625 I was going to mention manual primary tensioner but Doug said it. Yes Man O War compensator, manual tensioner and if get major run out on crank pins, you and get trued by Dark Horse. 👍
The 124 does vibrate a bit more than the 111 based one bore n stroke being equal on the 111 itd be my choice. Excellent video as usual
Thank you, l appreciate the support!
Hi.. how do I identify which make aftermarket evo engine I have. It's definately not a harley.. I can't find any branding stamped on the motor. Can someone please help me identify what make motor I have. Thanks man .
I would try running a quick good search on the engine VIN and see what pops up there. Should be some numbers on the cases, there's a lot of possibilities there if it's an aftermarket engine or maybe built with some aftermarket cases.
Exactly. My 96 Electra glide 46k. It has a Andrew's ev27 cam and screaming Eagle true duels on it. The best balanced big ass bike I rode. Ever. Love it
Some information on the aftermarket offerings might be outdated. I checked the Revtech website and they do not list the 88 and 100 ci engines; discontinued? The Ultima website now has a 140 ci Evo.
They are still available from dealer stock, the whole 2020 shut down has really destroyed the supply chain.
@@GixxerFoo You ain't kidding about supply chain troubles. Not only has Covid reeked havoc but so did the Texas freeze from last January. Add in a couple crop shortages, people unwilling to go back to work, etc. and we have the quagmire we are stuck in right now. I just figured that Revtech mentioning all the other engines being sold out but not even listing the 88 and 100 suggested they were discontinued.
They were junk the Ultima is a better motor I bought 2 127s 17 years ago no problems at all
Ive been taking a hard look at the v111. Almost a no brainer when it comes time. Even the v80 would be a great choice for me.
Those two me are the best options for a Evo replacement. The V80 is very solid motor and produces great power. Lol the V111 that things going to burn through some tires.
S&S all the way up!
What sort of mileage would a bike have done to need a rebuild or replacement engine?
But I take your point and can see what the advantage of the replacement engines and price is good compared to price of spares, crank regrind, reborn etc.
It really depends what kind of condition the engine is in with the mileage. A Evo can have 150k miles and still have good compression and low oil consumption. The latter one can be clapped out at 60k miles burning oil and knocking. Really depends on how it was taken care of in its life and a little bit of luck with the mechanicals.
I have an 06 Softail Night Train. Looks like S&S does not have a complete engine for the Softails. Do you know why? Is there anyone who makes one?
HD does it with every motor. Once it's been in production long enough to find and fix all the bug , they replace it with a different motor! Some years had bad castings. The last 3-4 years were the best ones quality wise.
They had that 103 about perfected and traded it for the M8, lol that's got it's own set of pit falls.
103 is perfect my cousin build Harleys I'm trying get into motorcycle 6'3 190
I'll take Scooter Tramp Scottys advice on s&s. I'd rather have the longevity anyway, personally. Jmo
Yeah with S&S I think I would go with the V80 and call it a day over the V111. There's a lot to be said about longevity and not sorting out issues all the time.
Seems reliability is a moot term with a Harley, as most are dead at 40k, and a handful make it to 80K. That is break in miles for many bikes today.
@@thomasheer825 EVO engines are meant to run to and beyond 100k. I'd say most folks don't really care to keep a bike past 40k, but Harley fans are different.
@@Shastar271828 Yea I hear about those bikes all the time, but when you try and actually lay eyes on one they seem to evaporate into the either. Another one would be the true the clock shows 100k with routine repairs. Then you ask them what the repairs were, and usually it is a piece by piece overhaul done in 10k increments. Sorry at one time I actually worked on Harleys, but got fed up with them.
Mercury Marine casted Evo cases for Harley Davidson in later production
I believe 1995 to 1999 .
Hey l worked for Mercruiser in Stillwater years ago, when they casted for Harley that was before my time. They also built the Zr1 vette motors at plant in Stilly.
Scooter Tramp Scotty had some trouble with his crate motor but I don't recall the specifics.
I remember he had one and had some issues. Friend of mine had a V111 blow up, new motor too. S&S covered all costs or R&R and shipping, refunded some cash too. They wanted that motor back to find out what went wrong, second motor ran like a top though.
Is Revtech still in business???? I can't seem to find parts for a 1st gen. 100cid.
I believe they are still active, I think they shut down for a bit in 2020 but I haven't heard anything about them closing up shop.
@@GixxerFoo thank you. I will try looking them up yet again.
People who hot rod there Harley's don't tour much. Just showing off and usually just bar hop. Stock EVO is the best motor Harley has ever built.
Dumbest mistake I ever made was selling my 87 FXRC. I put 88,000 miles on it and it was the most reliable high mileage bike I’ve owned. Milled the the heads 50 thousand, a little bit of porting, factory CHP ignition, and a mild cam. And yes, it put out more than the factory clutch could handle. Great strong running bike
Having grown up with my relatives always being loyal to S&S for performance parts it’d be hard for me to choose anything else, not to mention their Knucklehead and Pandemonium engines being the most aesthetically beautiful choices as well as preforming so much better than stock which of course hasn’t been produced in over 50 yrs. speaking of obsolete engines Flathead Power makes 1200cc crate motors for those interested. Makes me wish I had my Gramps’s old WLA with the 74” flywheel in it, was the 1st Harley I ever got to ride after I learnt on my beat up Honda xl 125. Just wish HD would supply S&S engines stock, it’d make for a much better product
How do they get the proper number matching numbers on the engine for a clean title
That’s one of the problems I had with my S&S 124. It took S&S almost a year to warranty my 124. I took my mostly stock 80 inch EVO out of my Fatboy. I had a 124 put into it. The day we started it up the brand new oil started returning from my engine to my oil bag with silver running all through it. S&S said drain the oil change the filter and flush the system before putting new oil in it. I did all of this and when I started it back up the new oil started to turn silver again.
From that point on it took almost a year to get a new motor and get it installed.
That pretty much made me a bit gun shy of S&S motors….
Hey. Fizzed. How concerned should I be with my 2007 softailfatboy with the timing chain adjuster pads
2007 has the hydraulic setup which is much more reliable, I'd be inspecting around the 30K mile range and plan on a replacement around 40k miles. Some bikes need replacement and others go some insane miles without needing replacement. Always better safe than sorry when it comes to the tensioner system.
I had a 02 Fatboy, my cam chain followers went @ 40k. installed a s,s 510 gear drive cams. With adj.push rods. Best choice I ever made ..Now your cam chest is bullet proof.
I gotta lead on a 72 shovel flht would a after market evo fit with adapters? Or do they make new aftermarket shovelheads?
Being a new build 90 Electra glide Evo s&s trans fabric( Midwest cycle new nos 2003) fxst Softail, nos parts for shocks etc, etc. Putting it together at Christmas for my Nephew to ride with me think it will be alright, may have to ask about an issue hope not, been doing my homework, it's from the ground up,,, thanks for all all the great info have a Great Christmas, I listen to your every word for the wisdom you choose to share, thank's
do these crate engines come in a balanced types for softail bikes ?
What ever happened to the TP (Total Performance) engines are they still being produced?
I haven't heard anything about them a long time, far as I can they are still in business. Haven't seen one of those motors in a while.
I'm currently rebuilding my s&s113ci, dyno a few years ago was 118hp & 124ftlb.. I'm changing the camshaft, lifters, pushrods, rockers and valves to try and push the bike up to 130hp, ish.
Shouldn't be too hard to get there on the S&S platform, you have the piece of mind knowing the cases will handle it too!
@@GixxerFoo the worry isn't the engine, its wether the old trans will take it
Anyone know if Harley still has the rebuild program for the evo's ?
I just asked Harley about this. No longer available for the Evo.
They ended it in 2013 or 2014 unfortunately.
Installed S&S in 99 evo whjen the crank bearing gave way. Never looked back. But I wouldn't hesitate to buy the American made Revtech. 75k on 2012 Glide. I plan on getting a lot more. Then discuss crate. Only way to go.
I'm a Harley guy. But I ride a great grandfather of the GXSR. A GS850GX.
Good talk.
i would get a blacked out rev tech small 88. enjoy my ride ! great channel !
That's awesome!! I appreciate the support!
For all of the custom bikes my partner and I built, we exclusively used the RevTech from Custom Chrome. And we used the 4X4 exclusively, and swapped out the garbage Mikuni for the S&S Super 'G'. And of course we would rejet the carb accordingly. NEVER a problem with the RevTech. The S&S engines we tried weren't balanced as good as the RevTechs are. Just some fyi.
That's awesome to hear some positive about the RevTech engines! They all have their good and bad points but in the end they are pretty reliable. S&S carbs are a lot better than the Mikuni, just some aren't willing to pay the price for the S&S.
@@GixxerFoo Mr. GixxerFoo, Sir,
Why do you say that the S&S is better than the Mikuni? Are you speaking of a CV Mikuni or the HSR compared to an S&S? I have the 42mm Mikuni HSR on my 98" Road Star and it's resulted in INSTANT throttle response compared to the stock CV Mikuni took out. And yes, I understand that that is not an S&S to Mikuni comparison. But that said, I've pretty much always heard that the Flat Slide Mikuni is superior to any of the S&S carbs for Harley applications, whether Evo or Twin Cam. I even have a direct quote from a truly legendary CNC motor builder and racer saying that the S&S is "a good tomato soup can compared to the Mikuni HSR." Would you care to elaborate on your thoughts on the above and why you prefer the S&S?
Thanks as always for superb analysis videos!
From southern California ~ Ride Forever!
I went with the S&S V 111 when I restored my 1993 FXR down to the frame. Runs great & strong throughout the whole power band. Shipped to my house I payed $5k. Was a plug & play install. Installed a Thunderjet on the Super E & a 34 tooth tranny pully & a BDL kevlar clutch & a 2into 1 Hacker War Header.Everything is working together perfectly runs alot cooler than my 96 TC.
That's awesome, I bet that motor is fun in a FXR!
@@GixxerFoo Hell Yeah!🤣
$5,000 for a V111 my ass!! 🤣😂🤣😂
@@TheYammerHammer LOL @ the time, I pulled my 2nd rod on my 80" & called S&S to get some info on their 80". Long story short they told me to get the V111 that they were running a sale on the V111 & would be cheaper vs the 80" in black. So I bought it from a company in Georgia for $4800 plus $250 for shipping.
@@robertrodriguez2412 of course they told you to buy a new motor. They're a business that's what they do. Sorry you were unable to work on your motor that sucks. I guess it's just more business for me
I'm considering a107 or 113 ultima engine for my 98 road king classic. My question is about the transmission.will this engine run down the road ok with the stock 5 speed? I'm aware a six speed would be better and have plans to do just that. However I'm an old dude on a tight budget.
Thank you! You answered a lot of questions I had bro. I really want to build & maintain my own bike
Great content. Will a crate Evo bolt into a twin cam frame made for a TC88?
Not directly, but with some fab work or adapters it can be done.
Lots of fab work. There are threads on it on a few sites
very informative and well done. I have a crate S&S Evo V-96 with Super E carb. I think the crankcase being vented into the carb is not the best way to go. any thoughts on re-routing ? I just pulled my air cleaner after 300 mi, and had oil pooling.
Is it like the top breathers? I set my 93 up with a catch can .
Need advise ,, looking on upgrade cam for my 103 cubic , personal like tongue cam ,,, pls suggest what cam to goes with ,,, prefect bolt in cam ,, cheaper cost ,,,, will it’s be better exhaust sound after installing cam ? Thx in advance and stay safe mate
The bike will sound and run a lot better with a cam, you'll get a bit more lump in the idle with the higher lift. Where are looking for your power to come on at? That would really determine what kind of cam you're after, also do you ride a softail, dyna or touring bike?
@@GixxerFoo mine is softail fatboy,,, interested in both in torque cam , tq
@CHEONG FOO Have you checked out the S&S 583? It's made for the Dyna and Softails, lots of power down in the mid and low. It also pulls really well up into the high rpm range. Here's the video on 103 cams th-cam.com/video/ixeV1wRzsoY/w-d-xo.html lot's of graphs and some of the best power producing cams out there.
Years ago when I was building my FXR I sent the triple trees out to be chromed. Got them back and installed them no problem. A couple of years later the police were inspecting bikes and found my lower tree was from a stolen bike so they impounded my bike. I got the bike back the next day but I had to get a new lower tree and have it re-inspected..
Holy crap that's insane! That's why I am very careful about swap meets, you just never know what you're buying.
@@GixxerFoo When i got the new triple tree I called the cop and gave him the # to make sure it was not stolen.
Where do u live? Afghanistan?
@@denniscassillo2032 damn, yeah after that l would too!
That's Pan America riding country over there, at your own risk of course 😄🤷♂️.
If a much bigger engine is added to a standard, evo bike say a 1987 FLHTC that I have, how does the stock powertrain hold up?
I got a Moco crate ( when they were still available) for my Heritage - the original one had lower end molested too much. Nothing special I must say, esp. comparing to my 98 FLTRI ( converted to a carb of course). That one really pulls - I think later EFI evos were pretty good. Those were dino figures, not just gearing. But hey, it's a softail, doesn't hafta pull hard.
So the moral? Both have been reliable and well prooven, ill just change the rings when needed, rebore when measurements are outa spec, repeat. When Im outta bore sizes - buy new jugs, repeat 😁
Was thinking Ultima cases with S&S internals,your input?
Ultima makes some solid cases, they are really heavy duty. Pair that with some S&S components it would be stoutly reliable.
The only thing that has issues on ultima motors is their valvetrain… use S&S lifters and rocker arms. Otherwise solid motors
Excellent point, that's the issue l always used to see with them years ago.
Another great informative video. The best value in Harley motors is a Evo crate.
Thank you, Agreed! Crate motors are awesome for Evo engines, they fixed the factory issues and got some power out of them. Still very reliable engines too!
Always enjoy your videos, thanks
Thanks for watching!
I have a question, Make that several. Did the Evo motor use caged roller bearings or plane on the crank shaft? Did the Evo use timken bearing on the output shaft and pinion shaft? How about the Rev-tech and Ultima. Also what happened to s&s's X motor witch if I remember didn't fit directly into a Harley frame. I am a little disappointed that you didn't mention my V-rod motor as the best. I know Harley doesn't make them any more ether cause they don't wear out! Another great video Thanks
All the 45 degree Harleys use the roller bearing bottom ends, before 2003 the bottom ends were timken tapered roller bearings on the pinion and output shafts. Revtech and Ultima use a tapered roller bearing bottom end, that's the strongest you can get for a Harley Vtwin. I believe S&S discontinued those motors a while ago, they've done a lot of changes to their engine line up. I've got some videos on the Vrod in the works, it's a solid engine platform that actually came out of the late 80's.
@@GixxerFoo Kool I'll be waiting on those V-rod videos. I'm planning on changing the triple tree on my 03 VRSC-A model from a 4% to a 2%. I purchased one off of a wrecked 06-D model that I located this last spring I believe this should make it more stable at speed and more nimble in turns. But that's a project for this winter. Mike from Maryland
@@michaelmorgan5714 That will for sure tighten up your handling, my dad ride 2012 nightrod. That bike is comfortable and it handles very well.
@@GixxerFoo They started changing the angle of the trees in the 06 D model from 4 degree to 2 degree. I'm guessing you know the trail increases with each degree in the frame neck and is decreased by each degree added to the triple tree. There were various combinations after that but they started with 34 degrees in the frame and 4 degrees in the tree effectively giving it a slow versachieve a nimble bike that's stable at 140 mph. Thanks again Mike from Maryland. P.S. I'll be able to fill you in next spring.
Let me know how that turns out! I might give it a try myself and see what happens.
Very informative video. Thanks!
Now a days ultima is supposed to be pretty good. The cases are cast in the USA and it is assembled here too. I haven't had one but I road a friend's bike that had a 120 something and damn was it a bad ass. Can't say much for longevity because he don't ride much but so far so good
Hey Gixxerfoo, how about a video on 6 speed Cruise Drive bearing failures?
I would go with an s&s v80 with same nice pipes and a good tune.
The V80 is a solid motor and honestly about the best way to go, the V111 has had some problems.
Im looking at my first harley. On a budget. I have on problem with a older evo. And now thatvi know that these crate engines are available definitely made my decision
If I decide to go above stock crate engine, how much change to you have to do with the compensator, clutch, tranny, etc. Long haul road worthy.
If you went with a high powered crate engine a high performance compensator or eliminator would be a good idea. You'd also want to upgrade to a performance clutch as well, transmissions will handle a lot if you're just cruising and getting in the throttle time to time. That's a great question, getting those items upgraded will make the setup a lot more reliable.
Running a 120 cube el bruto ultima engine in my FXR no problems at all delivers great power and really brings the FXR alive
True, but the old ones you can build yourself with ease.
Especially the Shovel!
Hey man, I finally got all my parts in to do my comp eliminator and chain tensioner job on my 09 Heritage, now its so hot gotta wait til fall to do the work lol Right afterwards I am putting on a hi flow filter and intake and a Thundermax tuner. I cant believe it took me 9 months to source everything but I am lookin forward to doing the work.....well maybe not doing the work, but I am looking forward to finishing the work lol
The end product is always the best part! Yeah getting parts in right now is tough after all the shut downs last year. Man that bike is gonna run damn good with that Thundermax on there, those eliminators are awesome. You won't have to worry about compensator problems ever again!
@@GixxerFoo im lookin foward to it, i went with Baker for the tensioner and Darkhorse for the comp
Dark Hose makes some killer products, Baker does too and they ain't cheap!
I feel u, I've got parts to put on my 98 heritage, but my shop has no air, about 120 in there, fu#k that.
@@perryhart3172 Yeah man, being a year without my bike is givin me the blues
usually with a evo thats got 80 -100k on it your fitst rebuild ( if you keep it stock ish) you can just plain the heads bore the cylinders , lap the valve and put a new carb on. then youll get another 60- 80k before you have to split the cases but after that a crate engine isnt a bad idea cause your buying cases / crank anyway.
I had an Ultima El Bruto 127” in my fxr, it broke a roller rocker and had to import a set from Australia (I’m in the U.K.) Ultima didn’t even reply to my emails enquiring about parts availability. If you’re in the U.K. forget Ultima go S&S every time.
S&S cost more but it can be well worth the extra cost.
Well for a Harley they are reliable but for practically any other brand they are short lived and underpowered. Sorry I have a very old used Goldwing that has over 100k and runs like new and it shocked me when I had a buddy with a hopped up HD bagger and I thought I would get my clock cleaned when we did a 1 mile WFO run. Well my Old Wing, as I call it, is stone stock basically didn't take him out of the hole but after that he might as well shut it down. We then did the same with my BMW R1150RT, 2004, with 80k on the clock and it wasn't even a race as the RT can pull a healthy hole shot, and due to a 300lb weight advantage helped. If you want to cruise and don't plan to put a shitload of miles the HD is a fun bike but it isn't the Holy Grail for power and longevity.
Lol you're right, there are much more practical bikes out there. I can't argue with a Gold Wing or BMW, they are smooth and comfortable.
I've had a 127 Ultima for 17 years now it has been a good motor I don't abuse it just use it if you thrash any motor well it won't last as long
Richard ignore the haters... i have owned 8 of the 127's in bikes i currently have one in my 1998 bagger which has been in it for 10 years. They run a H beam con rod all the others run an i beam which is weaker.. Bee hive valve springs, Mahle pistons, Johnston lifters, all good gear.. only issues i have seen in 20 years working on these is Lifter failure that can result in cam damage.... People crap on how their factory 80ci ran for 100 thousand miles... the simple fact is its making 40hp has piss weak valve springs and baby cam... The lifter failure is caused by the massive cam and valve springs used in Ultimas which is required to produce the 120+ rear wheel horsepower... I am replacing lifters in a customers bike today as part of routine maintenance engine is 10 years old... Any brand engine will wear lifters if it has a huge cam and strong valve springs... and if you rev the tits off it and bounce the valves your going to kill the lifters sooner... i run my rev limiter at 6000 and ride it pretty hard but i am also going to do lifters in mine pretty soon... small price to pay for triple the HP over 10 years...
@@harryavdoulos4029 curious as to fuel mileage on the 127 for a highway bike, I know there are many variables but big power doesnt neccessarily have to compromise fuel economy
@@thomasborger6548 no idea Thomas it's never crossed my mind as if i wanted Fuel economy i would have kept the original 1340 instead of almost doubling the engine size. i am certainly not filling it every 5 minutes and i believe at times it could use less as it doesn't have to work as hard to move the heavy bagger so light throttle acceleration could be as good if not better but when you keep grabbing and handful it will drink more...
@@harryavdoulos4029 fair enough answer, one of my bikes is an anemic almost stock motor and delivers neither power nor economy, another bike has very good power tho not comparable to your 127 and has quite reasonable fuel mileage hence my strange question directed at you.
I recommend from experience, the Ultima El Bruto 127. Best bang for your buck crate motor out there. 😎
That's a hell of a lot of motor for the money hands down!
@@GixxerFoo if well maintained is the Ultima a reliable motor?
I have no reason to make hot rods out of my Evos. 75 horespower is plenty. I have had my Softails as fast as I wanted to go, but never as fast as they would go.
Will the 125 inch fit in a current model 48?
S,s would be my choice, But would keep stock motor on my bench..94 dwg.
A shovelhead , I like your videos but I still don’t understand why a Two cylinder engine would run on average 5 grand. Evo’s are great I’ve owned a few but I’ll stick with my Shovels.
Iv got two shovelhead bikes myself and I love em
@@bryanmartin2271 I do too!
Me too! Love my shovel! I think the older bike sound badass then the new crap.
@@JohnDoe-mt8rf I agree and people are always commenting on how they sound.
Also if they change the motor, that changes the vin #. So,I just rebuilt,.my,70 shovel and tyranny , and kept it original and keeping the orginin vin, plus the value would be shit if changing the motor