Why Ramah's Death Complicates Things - The Chosen Season 4 Episode Three Breakdown
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
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Awesome job David I never had the thoughts you had on this scene. You explain things so well. I appreciate all your talks. Thank you very much. God bless you.
It's such a needless and controversial situation the writers wrote in. All it takes is a few minutes of thinking it over to see the flaws in the concept. If one were to apply the actions of Jesus from The Chosen s4 to a leader figure like Superman or Professor Xavier, one can see how unattractive the storyline reflects on Jesus. If an all-knowing leader led followers to a conflict zone and started a needless riot then fled when it got violent, he'd look pretty dang bad. BUT he'd look worse if he refused to save the life of a devoted follower who trusted him with her life. If this leader 100% could've saved her life and refused to? Oh man, that would be horrible. (Basically we're talking, "medical professional who refuses to help save a person choking to death" culpable) But wait, it gets worse cause then shortly after he raises his best bro from the dead. He's perky and chatting with the best friend and making dopey jokes, at the exact same time that his follower (the groom-to-be of the dead girl) is having an anguished mental breakdown? Why would they write JESUS to do this? It's such bad optics.
It's not like this is a show about Superman or Professor X but, if it were, you can bet that fans of the characters would take issue with their actions reflecting poorly on them. It's worse too cause at least Professor X and Superman are, by their nature, imperfect/flawed people where as Jesus is meant to be perfect. So the show has made canonically perfect Jesus look, at the bare minimum, inconsiderate and it's made the fanbase really divided. (Like I've seen fans call people who dislike this plot "Pharisees" and who get hostile, like disliking the writing of The Chosen's version of Jesus is against the REAL Jesus). I can only imagine how bizarre this might look in the eyes of non-Christians who were introduced to Jesus through The Chosen or people who aren't Bible nerds like I am.
It's not like I hate the show, in fact it was my favorite show from s1-s3 and I still want to try to be optimistic about the future of the show... but it's sad cause a) the fanbase was a lot nicer before s4e3 cause discussions over the episodes pre-season 4 were all focused on the Biblical elements rather than show-original stuff that overshadows it. b) it's going to be even more emphasized in the next seasons because we have Thomas now a broken man, jaded and hurt, whom Jesus will most likely continue to ignore the pain of since, like you said, he'll probably need to stay jaded until the big Thomas moment is adapted. and c) I don't think we'll ever get another multiseason adaptation of the Gospels and this one is incredibly derailed now.
Like you mentioned, it's just the Little James and Eden and Peter's baby plot but done in a much less tactful way. Why do this so close to Holy Week and the Crucifixion? Why do it at all? It's only eating up screentime that could've been put to better use fleshing out Judas or adapting moments from the gospels like the Transfiguration or Zacchaeus, Jesus telling parables (we could've gotten more episodes like the Good Samaritan one where we see real people parallel the stories Jesus told), or the story of Jesus raising the widow's son or the story where Jesus confronts Legion and exorcises the man possessed. Those moments are powerful. It just feels weird to do something like this when it's now a dark lingering cloud over vitally important Biblical moments.
@Nightman221k I 100% agree with everything you said here.
The fan reaction has definitely been disheartening to me. So many fans get extremely defensive of the show as if it is immune to criticism, which certainly the showrunners themselves would disagree with.
Many are quick to dismiss criticisms by asserting that "the show isn't the Bible," which is technically true, and admittedly allows the creators alot of freedom, as I mention in the video. That being said, simply saying that the show isn't the Bible isn't an actual defense; it's kind of like adapting any work of literature (like Harry Potter or LOTR or, as you mentioned, Superman): when the source material is better than the adaptation, you can't help but scratch your head and ask why they changed it. That's how I feel about this whole situation; with so much biblical stuff they chose not to adapt, why force in this plot point that feels out of place both biblical and in the context of the show itself.
Thanks for the comment! Lots of good stuff to think on.
@@NowLetsBeHonest I agree, it did feel out of place. I really feel like the scene most likely was meant with the best of intentions (meaning it for people who faced sudden loss) so I'm trying to bear that in mind when I point out its flaws, but I do wish they could have done it WITHOUT Jesus being so involved in the events leading to Ramah's death as well as denying her life-saving healing as she died. Like you, I feel like St. Thomas's doubt made perfect sense already. He was grieving Jesus' death, was upset that he didn't witness the resurrection himself, and couldn't shake the possibility everyone was in such a state of grief they were collectively deceiving themselves. All of the above are similar to the reactions of the other Apostles when the women at the tomb told them Jesus rose from the dead.
I did consider a potential way The Chosen could've tried that might've been less narrative-derailing than the Ramah storyline. Maybe the writers could've had Thomas witness the death of a loved one (maybe Thomas's twin brother) via crucifixion, where the loss weighed on Thomas tremendously and would tie into his practical and cautious nature (if his brother was crucified for stepping out of line). They could have had Thomas ask Jesus (post-Lazarus resurrection) to please raise his twin brother from the grave too (since twins share a very important bond, it would make sense that even after a few years Thomas would still be mourning this loss) to which Jesus could say something poignant to Thomas about his loss and the pain and the eventuality of his twin's resurrection. It'd preserve Jesus' blamelessness and virtues without making Jesus look indifferent or inconsiderate the way Ramah's death seemed to inadvertently come across.
It also could serve to imply that Thomas may have drawn the conclusion that a crucified person's body would be too desecrated and destroyed to be resurrected (since previously those resurrected from the dead weren't subjected to such graphic torture). Or that, in Thomas' mind, the glorified body of the resurrected Jesus that the Apostles described to Thomas (since I'd assume Jesus looked physically normal since Mary Magdalene thought he was a regular person tending the garden) seemed hard to believe for him.
Again, personally I don't really need backstory for his reasoning, but I'd rather something that at least feels in keeping with some historical details, rather than Thomas feeling personally jaded and let down by Jesus not healing his betrothed. I feel like going for the shocking spectacle aspect, didn't need to be how they did this plot point if they were determined to tie a tragic death to the backstory of St. Thomas.
I agree with the weird contradictory feeling of "good leader?" in this scene. In my mind I do allow a middle ground for Jesus - he doesn't have to know every nuanced detail and he doesn't have to know nothing of the future at all. I got the idea from the acting all season that Jesus had understanding from the Father that Thomas and Ramah would not end up married, but maybe he didn't know that she would die, or if he did know she would die maybe he didn't know it would be that day in that way, etc.
Another point you made me think of is how this scene is used to demote quintus and promote Gaius. They would have had to have something else to bring that about. Being out if capernaum so quintus isn't provoked or having Ramah not actually die would mean quintus needed another plotline to get detailed and demoted. Perhaps Jesus didn't have Roman opposition in the montage because God arranged quintus to be out of there and have edict/report-burning sympathetic Gaius in office so Jesus wouldn't have Roman opposition for a little while.
Having said all this, I DO wish they had chosen a different plot to get all these accomplished because I find it is taking so much attention from the Biblical content. More than Eden's miscarriage ever did, more than little James or Matthew's family, or any other difficulties the disciples have worked through so far.
David, thank you for your interpretation. Very insightful and well informed by your understanding of scripture (and film making!). I suspect the writers have had the story line for the final episodes mapped out for some time, and were having some difficulty about how to generate the idea that Thomas is so doubtful post-resurrection, and they were searching for a way that they could clearly generate an understanding in the viewer of that why he was so doubtful. I suspect some readers of the gospels may have wondered why Thomas doubted that Christ had been resurrected and the writers wanted to give a plausible explanation.
I believe that had Ramah decided after going back to her father's house, to try convince him about marrying Thomas, deciding that it would be best, in her mind, to follow her father's wishes and stay home, would have been possible, and doesn't leave any scripture concerns, because people can fall away from following Christ, as some did in John 6:53-57, plus Ramah is not mention in scriptures so there wouldn't be any controversy about her changing her mind. And yet this could place confliction an immature heart of Thomas, who started following Christ with Ramah, and had all intention to be with Ramah, while they followed Christ together. Ramah changing her mind, would give room for him to speculate and possible doubt why Jesus can't make it all better, being God as well as being man, so that be with Christ and have the woman he loves.
The arc didn't seem like the smartest choice, considering Ramah could've been written out by other reasons, like, she falls away from Jesus--(could've used John 6.)
Also, it's not like Thomas isn't a doubter. We seen this from the first season onward. We don't need fridging.
But the worst part? "Doubting Thomas." The death of Christ was scandalizing for everybody, not just Thomas.
I AGREE completely! I love The Chosen even if some of their choices would not have been mine but this Thomas/Rhema combo her death and how it made Jesus look will always leave a bad taste mainly because of a lingering impression it can leave one about Christ. I understand they see it differently but I do Completely agree with this breakdown!
I really t] that you did an extremely good job of explaining thereasons why the writing, even though you did not agree with it, was not antibiblical, but again we differ on why the choices made by the writers was good or bad. You point out that The Chosen is not the Bible, but a TV show - and know that Dallas and the writers have said that "since they know how the story ends", to be able to write for the complete story, they had to in one sense write backwards. Though they knew they needed to give lots of background info on principle characters in early episodes, for most they coud work that in "later". As you point out there is not much time between Lazarus resurection and Jesus crucifiction and resurrection and my thought is that they decided to use the "doubting Thomas" image (which I know you do not like) in the resurrection story, and decided to simplify their story line for Thomas - hence invent a character, Ramah, whose death would give Thomas to doubt... but who also"requested he stay with Jesus, no matter what. It is not that he doesn't go to Jesus - even in the early part of e 4, after the presence of Simon-Peter, when he starts to wail again, the person he goes straiht to is Jesus. He has moments with Jesus in the walk to deliver Ramah to her father. Later in Ep 4 and then 5, at several points characters mention that months have passes since Ramah's death. In the first time at Lazarus home, when there was the singing and partying, there were a few shots with Thomas in the background, if not singing, at least he had the beginnings of a smile on his face. Of course that comes and goes but it is with the raising of Lazarus he really breaks and then goes into darkness. But to give my full rational would be as long as your comments below to someone else. LOL. Good night!
As Simon Peter and Zee were trying to get Jesus out he stopped and turned back. He actually never left.
I’m failing to understand why they had to put Rhema’s death scene. It does put a negative on Jesus. For us who know the scripture and are mature in understanding can understand it’s not biblical and definitely if something like that had had happened the situation wouldn’t have been like that.
It has made me up set to watch episode 7 and I would completely relate with Thomas’ reaction how he would feel(he did an amazing job) but there was no need to show Rhema dying 😢
My issue is, why didnt Jesus just heal/ressurect ramah, coz of that verse in the bible that says everyone who ask recieves, this wasnt treating Jesus as a slot machine, and Thomas being a diciple means that he really belived Jesus could do it, and this death was pointless, and like you said could have been avoided if Jesus wasnt a bad leader, so it was no reason for Jesus to say no, just like with James, at least they kind of handled that in a more beliveable way, but here it was just unnessecary
I think you're misinterpreting the "ask and receive" passage in the same way Salome misinterpreted it (James and John's mom). Jesus did not say yes to them in the Bible when they asked to be at his right and left. To be fair he didn't say no either to what I remember, but he didn't say yes.
@@bette5373 salome situation was different, I obvisously understand why the sons of thunder didnt get their way, and also how am i misinterpeting ask and recive passage?
Man dude! You’re so wonderfully articulate and explain your points so well. Sorry for my excessive comments on the live chat 😅 A part of me wants to defend this scene in every which way I can. But I also understand your points and ultimately, while I think I have a some counter arguments for 3 out of 5 of your points, the remaining 2 are valid criticisms and concerns. With the first point, as audiences we often see the absurdity in how characters can act when making decisions that make us go 🤦🏻♀️ At the same time, intense situations often showcase how a person reacts when under fire, and it’s not hard to believe that even a smart man like Thomas can still make a bad choice in moment as intense as this. Also, Ramah made the impulsive choice to stay, when she could’ve left earlier. And yes, it could’ve been easily avoided…but maybe that’s the point? I’m having a hard time putting all my thoughts together here at this moment (I might have to write it all down on paper) but I what I’m trying to get across is aside from the moment being full of tension, I believe it’s also commenting on why some suffering happens. That while it’s easy to put all the blame on God because He has the power to stop it, we have to also consider the choices we make as individuals, both the good and the bad, the wise and unwise. And in hindsight, we can say, “man, why did I do that? I should’ve gone the other way” or “I should’ve said this”, but in the moments we’re not thinking that. Most of the time people go with t their gut. I think you need to be a person who is used to being under pressure to able to think straight. And The Chosen has this balancing act of depicting a Biblical era where such situations may have been more of the norm, and yet the characters still have to embody some of the themes and characteristics we see nowadays, hence why i think the disciples act the way they act some times (a point I know you and The Chosen Slueth have mentioned a few time). But I’m all over the place here. I hope I made some sense. And I’m not going to say more because this comment is already too long. But thank you so much for what you do. God bless you and congratulations to you and your fiancé!
Thanks for the analysis--and I appreciated interacting on the live chat!
@@NowLetsBeHonest Thank you! Always a pleasure to watch your content. Question: Do you think there’s a chance that another Christian will one day make their own multi-season show about the life of Jesus and His Disciples? I feel like it’s a possibility, especially seeing how impactful the show has been. However, I think the controversy over Ramah’s death emphasizes that making a show like this is complex and delicate. Still, it’s a thought that’s crossed my mind.
@@anneofgreengables1367i think where dallas went wrong is when he is trying to work backwards from crucifixion, i mean not everyone even watches for religious reasons, some watch for the human aspect of it, it would have been Nice if the show continued to focus of the human aspect of it, coz right now it feels like characters gets messed up for the sake of jesus, and to have ramah as a fridging character, and the fact that it was apparently planned from the beginning was a mistake, it would have been better if ramah got to be more her own character and not just a plotpoint