Never even considered the parallels between him and Anne Boleyn until your commentary. Learned Tudor history for over 20 years and NEVER made that comparison before!
It is even more crazy to think how three very hefty volumes have been squeezed into 10 episodes total. Sometimes I feel bad because it's like the entirety of Bring Up The Bodies have been left out completely and I cannot even recall what it is about, even though I read both book 2 and book 3 in the past two years - it is supposed to be very fresh in my mind. In the series some events are set in motion, but the resolution is entirely off screen (like the Meg Douglas affair). There are a lot of people who feel like Cromwell was given an extremely, excessively generous treatment by Hilary Mantel, to the point of obvious internal contradictions, but I think you can also read it as - no man is truly capable of seeing himself as a villain, even at his lowest he can justify his actions by doing the necessary dirty work for a greater good. The whole story is Cromwell's POV after all so even when he is deeply disturbed and hurt by accusations he betrayed Wolsey, he still belives the accuser is in the wrong because she cannot look at it the same way he looks at it.
My fave ep of the current series. Not only was it more historically accurate than its predecessors, this series, we got to see the tapestries in the great hall at Hampton ct, restored to all their technicolour glory, which is something i have been trying to imagine my whole life long. You are right that this episode is so good, because it races along, quite unlike The Mirror and the Interminable Light.
You're so right!! I feel sorry for him in the series but one mustn't forget how cruel and ambitious he was despite serving the king who Cromwell had to please in every way. Cromwell fell into his own trap of believing he could push his luck ... correct me if I'm wrong, please. Thanks for this great video!! Still waiting to be able to see this here in Spain, hopefully soon!!
I really think you’re right. I think ultimately it’s his ambition that killed him. I mean isn’t it weird that Henry offered him Essex when he showed that he was suspicious of his behaviour. I think Cromwell should have turned it down and say: “you’ve blessed me enough with titles my king, let me just serve you as it is” or something like that you know
Cromwell was a phenomenon familiar to modernity: a technocrat. He wasn't concerned with rationalizing a policy, only with implementing it. Cromwell probably would have preferred a theological grounding for the English Reformation rather than what England got: Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife and the pope wouldn't consent to it, so the king declared himself to be the head of the church. Henry changed little of Catholic dogma, though. A true Protestant reformation occurred only in Edward VI's time, after Cromwell was dead. Cromwell acted as a religious _politique_ for expediency's sake.
When I feel sorry for Cromwell, I remember its not only Ann Boleyn and her family who he murdered, but the Charterhouse monks who had horrible deaths and I think of the nuns who had spent their lives caring for the sick who were thrown onto the roads and the thousands of people who lost their livelihoods once the monasteries were looted and shut down. The Church was the largest employer in England. It was all for greed. Cromwell might have been the kings agent, but he chose to do those things and he got his cut.
This is true to a point, but let's not forget that Cromwell believed the pope was corrupt and wanted complete religious reform (even though that wasn't Henry's goal). Plus there was a lot of talk about priests (and even nuns) behaving debaucherously and being corrupt themselves. Whether true or not, I think Cromwell believed these rumors, maybe not about the entire clergy, but a good chunk of it. Cromwell was certainly no innocent, but Henry was the true monster before, during, and after Cromwell.
Ya the way he went about Norfolk’s ancestral monastery is the most vicious thing I always recall… From what I understand the clergy got pensions, they weren’t just dumped on the street. Given how badly corrupt the church has still been in this generation, I can only imagine what state things had gotten in with the monasteries. They were already long obsolete and so obviously open to abuses, I think it was a long time coming.
Most priests continued as before after swearing allegiance to Henry. Heads of monasteries got pensions, the monks and nuns sometimes a small pension or a small cash payout. The nuns got the smallest payouts. Many of the nuns had to return to their families if they didn’t have the money to go to Europe and find a place with a convent there. I have always thought money to fund Henry’s wars was at the heart of it.
Anna is sooooooo cute, I loved her. I do wish they'd put her in English fashion for once now she's been queen for a few months, but they probably won't 🙁 That Katheryn Howard was very reminiscent of The Tudors's Katheryn Howard with Tamzin Merchant at least in looks (and how Lady Rochford and Jane Seymour's sister describe her when they talk to Cromwell about her). When Henry was telling Cromwell he still misses Wolsey it made me roll my eyes so much cos, like you said, we all know how he treated him at the end, and he is going to miss Cromwell once he's killed him as well - the man is maddening. Also, hands up if you hate Norfolk 😁 I completely agree there should be at least 2 more episodes, if not making it a round 10, cos I did feel the last 10 mins felt rushed. Cromwell's walking here, he's walking there, and then he's arrested. I think I just needed one more scene before the final one for it to feel rightly placed. That scene was great, though, reminded me of Cromwell's arrest in the 1972 movie of Henry VIII and His Six Wives.
They also abandoned historical accuracy when they commissioned the 'Black and White Minstrel Show' and 'It Ain't Half Hot Mum' amongst countless others. Crowders - you are a cad and a worthless snowflake. Damn your eyes.
Never even considered the parallels between him and Anne Boleyn until your commentary. Learned Tudor history for over 20 years and NEVER made that comparison before!
I’m glad you’re here!
It is even more crazy to think how three very hefty volumes have been squeezed into 10 episodes total. Sometimes I feel bad because it's like the entirety of Bring Up The Bodies have been left out completely and I cannot even recall what it is about, even though I read both book 2 and book 3 in the past two years - it is supposed to be very fresh in my mind. In the series some events are set in motion, but the resolution is entirely off screen (like the Meg Douglas affair).
There are a lot of people who feel like Cromwell was given an extremely, excessively generous treatment by Hilary Mantel, to the point of obvious internal contradictions, but I think you can also read it as - no man is truly capable of seeing himself as a villain, even at his lowest he can justify his actions by doing the necessary dirty work for a greater good. The whole story is Cromwell's POV after all so even when he is deeply disturbed and hurt by accusations he betrayed Wolsey, he still belives the accuser is in the wrong because she cannot look at it the same way he looks at it.
My fave ep of the current series. Not only was it more historically accurate than its predecessors, this series, we got to see the tapestries in the great hall at Hampton ct, restored to all their technicolour glory, which is something i have been trying to imagine my whole life long. You are right that this episode is so good, because it races along, quite unlike The Mirror and the Interminable Light.
Haha yes! I comment on the beautiful tapestries in the longer version of the video. They truly are magnificent. And I agree with all you said.
You're so right!! I feel sorry for him in the series but one mustn't forget how cruel and ambitious he was despite serving the king who Cromwell had to please in every way.
Cromwell fell into his own trap of believing he could push his luck ... correct me if I'm wrong, please.
Thanks for this great video!!
Still waiting to be able to see this here in Spain, hopefully soon!!
I really think you’re right. I think ultimately it’s his ambition that killed him. I mean isn’t it weird that Henry offered him Essex when he showed that he was suspicious of his behaviour. I think Cromwell should have turned it down and say: “you’ve blessed me enough with titles my king, let me just serve you as it is” or something like that you know
Cromwell was a phenomenon familiar to modernity: a technocrat. He wasn't concerned with rationalizing a policy, only with implementing it. Cromwell probably would have preferred a theological grounding for the English Reformation rather than what England got: Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife and the pope wouldn't consent to it, so the king declared himself to be the head of the church. Henry changed little of Catholic dogma, though. A true Protestant reformation occurred only in Edward VI's time, after Cromwell was dead. Cromwell acted as a religious _politique_ for expediency's sake.
When I feel sorry for Cromwell, I remember its not only Ann Boleyn and her family who he murdered, but the Charterhouse monks who had horrible deaths and I think of the nuns who had spent their lives caring for the sick who were thrown onto the roads and the thousands of people who lost their livelihoods once the monasteries were looted and shut down. The Church was the largest employer in England. It was all for greed. Cromwell might have been the kings agent, but he chose to do those things and he got his cut.
This is true to a point, but let's not forget that Cromwell believed the pope was corrupt and wanted complete religious reform (even though that wasn't Henry's goal). Plus there was a lot of talk about priests (and even nuns) behaving debaucherously and being corrupt themselves. Whether true or not, I think Cromwell believed these rumors, maybe not about the entire clergy, but a good chunk of it. Cromwell was certainly no innocent, but Henry was the true monster before, during, and after Cromwell.
Absolutely!!!
Ya the way he went about Norfolk’s ancestral monastery is the most vicious thing I always recall…
From what I understand the clergy got pensions, they weren’t just dumped on the street. Given how badly corrupt the church has still been in this generation, I can only imagine what state things had gotten in with the monasteries.
They were already long obsolete and so obviously open to abuses, I think it was a long time coming.
Most priests continued as before after swearing allegiance to Henry. Heads of monasteries got pensions, the monks and nuns sometimes a small pension or a small cash payout. The nuns got the smallest payouts. Many of the nuns had to return to their families if they didn’t have the money to go to Europe and find a place with a convent there. I have always thought money to fund Henry’s wars was at the heart of it.
Despite knowing my history and have read the book, the end of the episode still shocked me 😮
I know right!
Anna is sooooooo cute, I loved her. I do wish they'd put her in English fashion for once now she's been queen for a few months, but they probably won't 🙁 That Katheryn Howard was very reminiscent of The Tudors's Katheryn Howard with Tamzin Merchant at least in looks (and how Lady Rochford and Jane Seymour's sister describe her when they talk to Cromwell about her). When Henry was telling Cromwell he still misses Wolsey it made me roll my eyes so much cos, like you said, we all know how he treated him at the end, and he is going to miss Cromwell once he's killed him as well - the man is maddening. Also, hands up if you hate Norfolk 😁 I completely agree there should be at least 2 more episodes, if not making it a round 10, cos I did feel the last 10 mins felt rushed. Cromwell's walking here, he's walking there, and then he's arrested. I think I just needed one more scene before the final one for it to feel rightly placed. That scene was great, though, reminded me of Cromwell's arrest in the 1972 movie of Henry VIII and His Six Wives.
The Anne Parallels 💔
Exactly
Wait will we see Katherine Howard in this show ?
You do see her briefly attending Anne of Cleves and with her uncle Norfolk
*The BBC abandoned "historical accuracy" when they decided to go for a DEI hire for certain members of the cast.*
They also abandoned historical accuracy when they commissioned the 'Black and White Minstrel Show' and 'It Ain't Half Hot Mum' amongst countless others. Crowders - you are a cad and a worthless snowflake. Damn your eyes.