An American here who hasn’t seen WH2 yet although I have been reading the reviews online this morning and have been listening to your podcast during WH2’s run. When you talked about Cromwell’s execution and your crying I could so relate. “The Mirror and the Light” is the only historical fiction book where I already knew how it would end and yet was totally unprepared for Mantel’s beautiful way of writing about Cromwell’s interior thoughts throughout the actual execution rather than going into gory detail. It was even more poignant because I could see in my mind Mark Rylance (my favorite actor of all time) experiencing this moment. I was an absolute wreck! My best friend, who is a huge WH fan of the books and Season 1, and I had a pact that when we finally finished the book we’d call the other person regardless of the time day or night. I called her at 3:30 AM sobbing my heart out. It took an hour to calm me down. Three days later she called me at 4:30 AM weeping. Both of us love to read, but neither of us had ever had such a visceral and intense emotional response to an ending like that. Perhaps it was because we already knew how the book had to end and had come to really care about Cromwell, or perhaps it was Dame Hilary’s flawless writing and ability to evoke something so spiritually profound in the midst of a violent execution. After your review I am counting down the days until March 23 when WH2 premieres here in the US. I hope that WH2 wins every prize that it’s up for at the BAFTAs and the Emmys. Surely it and Season 1 will go down as one of, if not THE GREATEST show(s) in television history. May Hilary Mantel also receive some posthumous recognition for writing the greatest trilogy in literature. BTW I enjoy your podcast very much. You bring out issues and interesting tidbits of Tudor and Renaissance history that I haven’t found elsewhere. Brava!💜👏
I liked this episode. Some of the previous ones were a bit hard to follow because of the large cast and complicated plot, but the interrogation scene brought it all together and clarified it.
I have enjoyed these historical context recap videos very much! I have been watching Mirror & the Light week to week, phenomenal production. I would love some Season 1 recaps as well! I am due for another rewatch too. Hope you do it, thanks!
I was very moved by that last letter, particularly the 'mercy, mercy, mercy' part. It would be easy to dismiss Cromwell's downfall as karma for what he did to Anne Boleyn, but I don't believe that anyone deserves to be beheaded, especially if it was botched. A brilliant final episode - you really got a sense of how easily the tide could turn on you back then, and you can go from being in favour and rewarded one minute, to betrayed and executed the next. I'm so glad I didn't live in Tudor times!
It is precisely because of what he did not just to Anne Boleyn, but to her brother, to Norris, Weston, Smeaton and Brereton. He accused them of horrible things, like treason and incest. He lied against them, even though he surely knew they were innocent. They were collateral damage and bumps in the road for him. So, despite the excellent show, I can't feel much sympathy for him.
I thought the final episode was superb, with the last meeting between Cromwell and Sadler exceptionally moving. I also thought the late appearance of Brandon was interesting, as here was someone who lost both his sons to the same outbreak of sweating sickness that took Cromwell's son. I am unsure why, but I felt it added another dimension to the meeting. Many thanks for this 'Mirror and the Light' series Heather, would love if you would consider reviewing 'Wolf Hall'. Also - what a beautiful Labrador puppy!
Been doing some reading and have concluded I agree with historians who say it only took one blow of the axe. There were apparently no stories of a prolonged execution in the reports of contemporary ambassadors. The grisly stories of the execution appeared about a century later. And, as noted by historians, if he’d been repeatedly axed, his head couldn’t have been displayed on the spike, as it was, afterward. Odd (to me) to feel relieved he wasn’t as butchered as some of the stories have said. Can only attribute it to the gifts of Hilary Mantel and Sir Mark Rylance that such a ruthless man could be at all sympathetic! Just found your channel and subscribing. ❤
Interesting regards Anne of Cleeves. I also listened to a french authors (name escapes me) on Talking Tudors, and her thoughts about Anne's life after the annullment. Henry making her a 'King's Sister', was a clever move from him to keep her under his eye and within his control. It was not as 'lovingly played out' as often portrayed. Very interesting that Anne would wany him after so much death and his leg???, but she had her reasons me thinks.
Well, she was kept in a golden cage. Her situation was as follows: she was alone. Even her own brother had pretty much left her to fend for herself, after screwing Henry over and doing a deal with the Emperor. What choice did she even have with no one to back her? And the deal was here are a bunch of palaces, castles and mansions in exchange for never leaving England and not getting married again. People were touchy about their honour (to be read pride) and God forbid another man could replace Henry and marry her. Henry had to be the manliest man that has ever manned in the history of men. If he won't have her, no one should. So, it's not like she was smart and did some clever calculation as much as: she didn't have a choice. It was a fait accompli. I like that Heather mentions the disparaging remarks she had towards Katherine Parr. Katherine is my favourite out of the 6 wives and it always seemed to me she was kicked like an unwanted dog. The Tudor court reminds me of high school: everyone bullied Anne to get Henry his annulment, until she tried to deflect by saying: "Hey, let's bully Katherine over there. She's ugly!" Anne Stanhope shoved Katherine once, physically pushed her out of her way and threatened to pretty much beat her and once took her seat in church. Katherine had to go sit elsewhere, with her tail between her legs, blaming herself for marrying Thomas Seymour. I would seriously LOVE to see a comedy show based on this stuff, because the Tudor court could be funny. It was just one big high school.
Enjoyed that, thanks. I thought Mark Rylance portrayal of Cromwell was spectacular, a very talented actor. Overall Mantell positions Cromwell as a man of extreme loyalty and integrity working for a tyrant king whose whims and moods could mean life or death. Personally I’m not sure it’s an accurate reflection of Cromwells true character, one such aspect being his obvious love of the trappings of wealth, he certainly feathered his own nest, admittedly, coloured by the numerous portrayals of him as ‘ the baddy’. Wolf hall’s juxtaposition to the norm was certainly refreshing, also its exploration of the nuisances, dynamics and constant power plays at work as part of court life was tremendous. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
I never knew anything about Gregory before this series and for you to teach us even more is great. Was his wife coloured though? How did that come about? Her sister was Jane Seymour but she was very white skinned with fair hair? Also her brothers were white skinned.
In reality the northern hemisphere was experiencing something called “The little ice age” from the 14th to 19th centuries when temperatures were lower compared to the surrounding centuries. So I don’t know if the makers of the miniseries were trying to be that historically accurate but it’s nice to think that they may have.
Thank you heather, Salsa seems a lovely dog. Didn’t I see a cat one day? How do they get on.? I feel a bit sorry for Cromwell, I don’t think he thought the king would go through with it. Yes, he caused Anne’s downfall but, in his opinion, it was him or her. Not sure he deserved the ending he got. If the executioner botched an executioner , he shouldn’t get paid! Doesn’t help the victim much though. 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
Honestly I never liked Cromwell. He always struck me as having a cruel streak and his downfall was weirdly ironic as he had complacently watched Anne Boleyn go to her doom on similarly trumped up charges. I do, however, believe that Henry was ultimately in control of the court and all the famous executions of his reign could only have occurred because he wanted them to. Phillipa Gregory’s book may be historically inaccurate but I think she got Henry’s personality right when she describes him as a man of “dangerous whims”.
As a Stan of Anne Boleyn since I was around nine, I have to cheer at Cromwell getting his just desserts. Lol. Another one of Anne’s enemies falls in spectacular fashion. First Jane, then Cromwell. After that, Henry suffers heartbreak with Kathryn Howard ‘betraying’ him like he falsely accused Anne of doing, then he dies a slow agonizing and embarrassing death for someone with such a huge ego and vanity. And despite all odds, the unwanted daughter ends up being Henry’s greatest heir. The Boleyn revenge is complete! Lol
How are we to understand the word "Catholic" in Cromwell's final, scaffold speech? Are you claiming he REVERTED to pre-reformation Catholicism? Surely not...?
We have the brilliant Hilary Mantel to thank for, ‘The Wolf Hall Trilogy’. She would not have approved of the casting in, “The Mirror and the Light” because, for her, the story was about authenticity. The BBC detracted from this with casting (for their own political correctness reasons). So the final series was spoiled by their silly choices. You would not have a small, white, ginger haired guy playing Martin Luther King would you??? Anyway! thanks to Mark Rylance and the other great original cast members it was a well done series.
Hilary Mantel was not an historian and her books were not history. They were very good novels, brilliantly written, which I read when they first came out. She wrote much more sympathetically about Thomas Cromwell than how he was generally perceived - a rather Machiavellian figure, Henry VIII’s ruthless enforcer. I think the BBC series was excellent and faithful to Mantels books (Mantel was very happy with the first series that covered her first two books but sadly she died some years before “The Mirror and the Light” produced). If anything the series presented, like Hilary Mantel’s three books also did, a rather flattering picture of Thomas Cromwell - but perhaps it gives some balance to the general view of him here in the UK as just a cruel, brutal, ruthless and unscrupulous man - clearly there was more to him than that, although he exhibited all these traits in his life and work. Greeting from Yorkshire, UK.
The strategic placement of several non white European ethnicity extras is fine BBC _new political correctness_ but is really only half hearted. There were no Chinese, Polynesian, Melanesian, Indian or Pakistani and no Native American actors used. More of the core roles could have been played by women.
It’s just a bit of middle-class racism. It does detract from the story, but Rylance is a great performer. I just remind myself it’s not history just a TV drama.
It was very poor and Lazy, to many flashbacks poor in locations he was executed on tower hill, not in the tower, how ever the thw whole clown show was saved by good actors who were working with poor writing, well done All of you with great actors Like Mark, Damion, and Thomas .
Quality acting, and actors...back to the days, when bbc made excellent drama...
An American here who hasn’t seen WH2 yet although I have been reading the reviews online this morning and have been listening to your podcast during WH2’s run. When you talked about Cromwell’s execution and your crying I could so relate. “The Mirror and the Light” is the only historical fiction book where I already knew how it would end and yet was totally unprepared for Mantel’s beautiful way of writing about Cromwell’s interior thoughts throughout the actual execution rather than going into gory detail. It was even more poignant because I could see in my mind Mark Rylance (my favorite actor of all time) experiencing this moment. I was an absolute wreck!
My best friend, who is a huge WH fan of the books and Season 1, and I had a pact that when we finally finished the book we’d call the other person regardless of the time day or night. I called her at 3:30 AM sobbing my heart out. It took an hour to calm me down. Three days later she called me at 4:30 AM weeping. Both of us love to read, but neither of us had ever had such a visceral and intense emotional response to an ending like that. Perhaps it was because we already knew how the book had to end and had come to really care about Cromwell, or perhaps it was Dame Hilary’s flawless writing and ability to evoke something so spiritually profound in the midst of a violent execution. After your review I am counting down the days until March 23 when WH2 premieres here in the US. I hope that WH2 wins every prize that it’s up for at the BAFTAs and the Emmys. Surely it and Season 1 will go down as one of, if not THE GREATEST show(s) in television history. May Hilary Mantel also receive some posthumous recognition for writing the greatest trilogy in literature.
BTW I enjoy your podcast very much. You bring out issues and interesting tidbits of Tudor and Renaissance history that I haven’t found elsewhere. Brava!💜👏
I liked this episode. Some of the previous ones were a bit hard to follow because of the large cast and complicated plot, but the interrogation scene brought it all together and clarified it.
I might’ve shed a couple as well. I’m not a fan of Thomas Cromwell but it was movingly done.
I have enjoyed these historical context recap videos very much! I have been watching Mirror & the Light week to week, phenomenal production. I would love some Season 1 recaps as well! I am due for another rewatch too. Hope you do it, thanks!
I was very moved by that last letter, particularly the 'mercy, mercy, mercy' part. It would be easy to dismiss Cromwell's downfall as karma for what he did to Anne Boleyn, but I don't believe that anyone deserves to be beheaded, especially if it was botched. A brilliant final episode - you really got a sense of how easily the tide could turn on you back then, and you can go from being in favour and rewarded one minute, to betrayed and executed the next. I'm so glad I didn't live in Tudor times!
It is precisely because of what he did not just to Anne Boleyn, but to her brother, to Norris, Weston, Smeaton and Brereton. He accused them of horrible things, like treason and incest. He lied against them, even though he surely knew they were innocent. They were collateral damage and bumps in the road for him. So, despite the excellent show, I can't feel much sympathy for him.
I thought the final episode was superb, with the last meeting between Cromwell and Sadler exceptionally moving.
I also thought the late appearance of Brandon was interesting, as here was someone who lost both his sons to the same outbreak of sweating sickness that took Cromwell's son. I am unsure why, but I felt it added another dimension to the meeting. Many thanks for this 'Mirror and the Light' series Heather, would love if you would consider reviewing 'Wolf Hall'.
Also - what a beautiful Labrador puppy!
Been doing some reading and have concluded I agree with historians who say it only took one blow of the axe. There were apparently no stories of a prolonged execution in the reports of contemporary ambassadors. The grisly stories of the execution appeared about a century later.
And, as noted by historians, if he’d been repeatedly axed, his head couldn’t have been displayed on the spike, as it was, afterward.
Odd (to me) to feel relieved he wasn’t as butchered as some of the stories have said. Can only attribute it to the gifts of Hilary Mantel and Sir Mark Rylance that such a ruthless man could be at all sympathetic!
Just found your channel and subscribing. ❤
Interesting regards Anne of Cleeves. I also listened to a french authors (name escapes me) on Talking Tudors, and her thoughts about Anne's life after the annullment. Henry making her a 'King's Sister', was a clever move from him to keep her under his eye and within his control. It was not as 'lovingly played out' as often portrayed. Very interesting that Anne would wany him after so much death and his leg???, but she had her reasons me thinks.
Well, she was kept in a golden cage. Her situation was as follows: she was alone. Even her own brother had pretty much left her to fend for herself, after screwing Henry over and doing a deal with the Emperor. What choice did she even have with no one to back her? And the deal was here are a bunch of palaces, castles and mansions in exchange for never leaving England and not getting married again. People were touchy about their honour (to be read pride) and God forbid another man could replace Henry and marry her. Henry had to be the manliest man that has ever manned in the history of men. If he won't have her, no one should. So, it's not like she was smart and did some clever calculation as much as: she didn't have a choice. It was a fait accompli.
I like that Heather mentions the disparaging remarks she had towards Katherine Parr. Katherine is my favourite out of the 6 wives and it always seemed to me she was kicked like an unwanted dog. The Tudor court reminds me of high school: everyone bullied Anne to get Henry his annulment, until she tried to deflect by saying: "Hey, let's bully Katherine over there. She's ugly!" Anne Stanhope shoved Katherine once, physically pushed her out of her way and threatened to pretty much beat her and once took her seat in church. Katherine had to go sit elsewhere, with her tail between her legs, blaming herself for marrying Thomas Seymour. I would seriously LOVE to see a comedy show based on this stuff, because the Tudor court could be funny. It was just one big high school.
Enjoyed that, thanks. I thought Mark Rylance portrayal of Cromwell was spectacular, a very talented actor. Overall Mantell positions Cromwell as a man of extreme loyalty and integrity working for a tyrant king whose whims and moods could mean life or death. Personally I’m not sure it’s an accurate reflection of Cromwells true character, one such aspect being his obvious love of the trappings of wealth, he certainly feathered his own nest, admittedly, coloured by the numerous portrayals of him as ‘ the baddy’. Wolf hall’s juxtaposition to the norm was certainly refreshing, also its exploration of the nuisances, dynamics and constant power plays at work as part of court life was tremendous. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
I never knew anything about Gregory before this series and for you to teach us even more is great.
Was his wife coloured though? How did that come about? Her sister was Jane Seymour but she was very white skinned with fair hair?
Also her brothers were white skinned.
Good video Heather! Cute puppy dog too!😂❤
I cried too.
Merry Christmas Salsa❤❤❤
Definitely do a commentary etc on all episodes , thanks
It seemed very cold for July 1540.Fur and hats on everyone.
It is England!
To be fair this is England we're talking about
In reality the northern hemisphere was experiencing something called “The little ice age” from the 14th to 19th centuries when temperatures were lower compared to the surrounding centuries. So I don’t know if the makers of the miniseries were trying to be that historically accurate but it’s nice to think that they may have.
Thank you heather, Salsa seems a lovely dog. Didn’t I see a cat one day? How do they get on.? I feel a bit sorry for Cromwell, I don’t think he thought the king would go through with it. Yes, he caused Anne’s downfall but, in his opinion, it was him or her. Not sure he deserved the ending he got. If the executioner botched an executioner , he shouldn’t get paid! Doesn’t help the victim much though. 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
Thank you I think the first series was better than this second one
Honestly I never liked Cromwell. He always struck me as having a cruel streak and his downfall was weirdly ironic as he had complacently watched Anne Boleyn go to her doom on similarly trumped up charges.
I do, however, believe that Henry was ultimately in control of the court and all the famous executions of his reign could only have occurred because he wanted them to. Phillipa Gregory’s book may be historically inaccurate but I think she got Henry’s personality right when she describes him as a man of “dangerous whims”.
🎄🎄🎄🎄🎄
As a Stan of Anne Boleyn since I was around nine, I have to cheer at Cromwell getting his just desserts. Lol. Another one of Anne’s enemies falls in spectacular fashion. First Jane, then Cromwell. After that, Henry suffers heartbreak with Kathryn Howard ‘betraying’ him like he falsely accused Anne of doing, then he dies a slow agonizing and embarrassing death for someone with such a huge ego and vanity. And despite all odds, the unwanted daughter ends up being Henry’s greatest heir. The Boleyn revenge is complete! Lol
How are we to understand the word "Catholic" in Cromwell's final, scaffold speech? Are you claiming he REVERTED to pre-reformation Catholicism? Surely not...?
We have the brilliant Hilary Mantel to thank for, ‘The Wolf Hall Trilogy’. She would not have approved of the casting in, “The Mirror and the Light” because, for her, the story was about authenticity. The BBC detracted from this with casting (for their own political correctness reasons). So the final series was spoiled by their silly choices. You would not have a small, white, ginger haired guy playing Martin Luther King would you??? Anyway! thanks to Mark Rylance and the other great original cast members it was a well done series.
Hilary Mantel was not an historian and her books were not history. They were very good novels, brilliantly written, which I read when they first came out. She wrote much more sympathetically about Thomas Cromwell than how he was generally perceived - a rather Machiavellian figure, Henry VIII’s ruthless enforcer. I think the BBC series was excellent and faithful to Mantels books (Mantel was very happy with the first series that covered her first two books but sadly she died some years before “The Mirror and the Light” produced). If anything the series presented, like Hilary Mantel’s three books also did, a rather flattering picture of Thomas Cromwell - but perhaps it gives some balance to the general view of him here in the UK as just a cruel, brutal, ruthless and unscrupulous man - clearly there was more to him than that, although he exhibited all these traits in his life and work. Greeting from Yorkshire, UK.
Ironically Thomas Cromwell's great,great,great uncle Oliver Cromwell ended up decapitating a King.
The strategic placement of several non white European ethnicity extras is fine BBC _new political correctness_ but is really only half hearted. There were no Chinese, Polynesian, Melanesian, Indian or Pakistani and no Native American actors used. More of the core roles could have been played by women.
It’s just a bit of middle-class racism. It does detract from the story, but Rylance is a great performer. I just remind myself it’s not history just a TV drama.
It was very poor and Lazy, to many flashbacks poor in locations he was executed on tower hill, not in the tower, how ever the thw whole clown show was saved by good actors who were working with poor writing, well done All of you with great actors Like Mark, Damion, and Thomas .