Interesting theory that Anne Boleyn might have spoken so well of the King out of hopes he was there, listening to her. But we should not forget, praising the King before your execution was a MUST if you wanted to have a "graceful death", which was obviously very important for Anne.
And she was ensuring better treatment of her family and also her daughter Elizabeth. No one expected Elizabeth to succeed, of course. It was expected that Henry would have sons. Elizabeth would have been proclaimed illegitimate. But by remaining loyal to the King, Anne was doing her best to keep the best possible treatment of her daughter.
it had nothing to do with a graceful death as the way of executing her had always been agreed (beheaded instead of being burnt...as if Henry showed mercy that way when ordering the execution of an innocent woman) but it was for Elizabeth and her parents that she did that. To avoid any repercussions but it didn't work, did it? They burnt all her letters and papers at Hever and Elizabeth was declared bastard and taken away from court...
Yes, fully agree that despite the historical inaccuracies and some questionable casting, this is such an emotional scene, it definitely leaves an impression...
When I look at the differences in the way Henry VIII treated the situation with Anne Boleyn and the way he treated the situation with Katherine Howard, I really think that he knew that Anne was innocent but believed that Katherine was guilty. Neither woman deserved her fate but I think that in Henry's mind, Anne didn't deserve it but had to go and Katherine deserved it.
Well yeah, Henry and Cromwell both came up with the false accusations against Anne. While with Katheryn Howard, Henry thought she was an innocent girl until her past was uncovered, he even stated in real life that he would take his sword and kill her himself.
I think it was a shock to Henry when Katherine’s past and current affairs were discovered. He used to call her his “rose without a thorn.” Once it came out, though, there was no doubting it. What I don’t get is why Jane Rochford took such a role in facilitating the liaison with Culpepper. She had to have known she was skating on thin ice??
@@m.h.6499 Maybe Jane Rochford thought that Katherine would try to meet with Culpepper anyway and Jane hoped that she could keep things from going pear shaped if she was there to help.
you are so right. dramatically the truth about Henry with Jane hunting would have been so more effective. incredible. I didn't realise that was where he was when it all happened
I love how much you hate him. The whole "but he was handsome, athletic, could be very charming and funny" blah blah blah which many people argue in his favour - as if all that can't be wrapped up in a controlling, tyrannical package - does make me want to bang my head against a wall at times. His positive sides (although they lean towards his limitless vanity) still co-exist with his many bad - that's how he's so monstrous and dangerously unpredictable. For decades you could be his best friend and the second he feels slighted, you're nothing to him - that's terrifying and horrendous. I still don't know how Charles Brandon survived, given the risks he took!
I'm sad we don't have Wolf Hall Season 2 out here in the US yet but am grateful for your reviews Estelle. Thanks for sharing! This opening scene was emotional and impactful. Very well-done except for the wedding. Poor Anne I wonder if they started with her execution to foreshadow what will happen to Cromwell later on this season?
I agree that the reality of Anne’s execution and Henry’s hunting and partying shown at the same time would have been more powerful, but it is what it is. Glad to see Cromwell is shown as ruthless as he actually was here. I loved the book and the first show but Cromwell was pitiless in the dissolution of the monasteries. He’s not a nice guy.
I love your analysis and agree that it would have been stronger to have shown Henry partying it up while the woman he had allegedly once loved was being executed. Furthermore, it kind of takes away from what's coming (spoiler)... Cromwell was executed on the same day as Henry married his 5th wife, Katherine Howard - and we know her sad fate. I also think what's overlooked here - and what was so effectively portrayed in Mantel's book - is the execution of the five innocent men and Cromwell's petty reasons for choosing them as scapegoats, but can't remember if that was portrayed in the previous season.
would it be possible for you to do a video giving your overview of the Hilary Mantel Cromwell trilogy? I know your specialism is Anne, but just perhaps overall to give your view on the depiction of Cromwell in the round, both as history, and as literature
@@RogieVixenThe novels are literature, as opposed to simple story telling. They are extremely well researched and written. Mantel writes most of the novels in the present tense, rather than in the past tense and switches into flashbacks a lot. So you need to concentrate a little on what you are reading. If you enjoy literature and good writing, then I recommend reading them.
Poor poor Anne - I think of her many times and speak her name out loud every time I hear the caw of a raven. That fat, spoilt, ugly, hideous, callous beast and"Cremuel" were monsterous, cowardly brutes to have done what they did. Trumped up charges of course Noone deserves such a dreadful end. RIP Anne and all the other poor souls that went the same terrible way.
My understanding is that at the end, in the tower and at the execution, the women who were around Anne were not necessarily loyal, but were people put there to spy and provide information on her. Please correct me if I’m wrong and I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. I would like to believe she had friends around her in the end, but apparently this was not the case.
It is my understanding that although the women were selected because they were from anti-Boleyn families, they grew fond of Anne during her imprisonment in the Tower and became very protective of her at the end in and in death.
One thing I also felt was wrong, aside from her clothing which is not accurate according to sources, is that the women placed her body in the arrow box on the scaffold. I thought they had to scramble to find anything suitable for a coffin because one wasn’t provided. Maybe they would have had to have done that, I’m not sure, but Anne’s clothing was given to the executioner as part of his payment, and they certainly wouldn’t have removed her gown in front of any crowd… maybe they carried her body to the chapel in the box, removed her costly outer clothing and then put her back in the box to bury her? I guess that might have been the case. But the scene didn’t feel right to me at the time I watched it. Also, I’m not convinced that Jane felt any remorse for Anne Boleyn… but perhaps she would have felt fear. Certainly she was an active participant in Anne’s downfall, but she may have believed that Anne would only be annulled and banished, not murdered. If that were the case, imagine then thinking that, oh, he might not just annul our marriage if I don’t give him a son, he might kill me. That would be pretty terrifying, but I have a hard time feeling too sorry for Jane.
7:40 Objectively, I think having Henry getting married at the same moment Anne loses her head is, dramatically, the more powerful story. You don't seem to make any case at all here for why you think the historically accurate version would be more powerful. Of course, there are too many people who don't read books anymore who will walk away knowing that the wedding and the execution happened on the same day. I find that as unnecessary and irritating as I imagine you do; however, that doesn't seem to be the case you are arguing for.
Another reason maybe they didn't do it historically accurate is cos, like you described how they were enjoying themselves, that would cast Jane Seymour kind of unfavourably and God forbid we show anything negative about a Jane portrayal 🤷♀️🙄 (though I would personally love that. Sorry Jane, but you weren't an innocent in all this, what with the whispering poison in Henry's ear over his marriage). I want a three dimensional Jane Seymour for once please.
I don't love the way that Anne is written in this series (or book). Bitchy schemer vs someone of more depth. I love Claire Foy but why didn't they give her brown contact lenses (like they gave blue ones Jenna Coleman for Victoria)?
Interesting theory that Anne Boleyn might have spoken so well of the King out of hopes he was there, listening to her. But we should not forget, praising the King before your execution was a MUST if you wanted to have a "graceful death", which was obviously very important for Anne.
And she was ensuring better treatment of her family and also her daughter Elizabeth. No one expected Elizabeth to succeed, of course. It was expected that Henry would have sons. Elizabeth would have been proclaimed illegitimate. But by remaining loyal to the King, Anne was doing her best to keep the best possible treatment of her daughter.
it had nothing to do with a graceful death as the way of executing her had always been agreed (beheaded instead of being burnt...as if Henry showed mercy that way when ordering the execution of an innocent woman) but it was for Elizabeth and her parents that she did that. To avoid any repercussions but it didn't work, did it? They burnt all her letters and papers at Hever and Elizabeth was declared bastard and taken away from court...
It breaks my heart that Anne kept looking up for some sort of a pardon that never came 💔
it breaks mine too
Yes, fully agree that despite the historical inaccuracies and some questionable casting, this is such an emotional scene, it definitely leaves an impression...
it really does...
I can't speak highly enough of this drama - it remains in a class of its own
When I look at the differences in the way Henry VIII treated the situation with Anne Boleyn and the way he treated the situation with Katherine Howard, I really think that he knew that Anne was innocent but believed that Katherine was guilty.
Neither woman deserved her fate but I think that in Henry's mind, Anne didn't deserve it but had to go and Katherine deserved it.
Well yeah, Henry and Cromwell both came up with the false accusations against Anne. While with Katheryn Howard, Henry thought she was an innocent girl until her past was uncovered, he even stated in real life that he would take his sword and kill her himself.
I think it was a shock to Henry when Katherine’s past and current affairs were discovered. He used to call her his “rose without a thorn.” Once it came out, though, there was no doubting it. What I don’t get is why Jane Rochford took such a role in facilitating the liaison with Culpepper. She had to have known she was skating on thin ice??
@@m.h.6499 Maybe Jane Rochford thought that Katherine would try to meet with Culpepper anyway and Jane hoped that she could keep things from going pear shaped if she was there to help.
you are so right. dramatically the truth about Henry with Jane hunting would have been so more effective. incredible. I didn't realise that was where he was when it all happened
such a horrible man...
I love how much you hate him. The whole "but he was handsome, athletic, could be very charming and funny" blah blah blah which many people argue in his favour - as if all that can't be wrapped up in a controlling, tyrannical package - does make me want to bang my head against a wall at times. His positive sides (although they lean towards his limitless vanity) still co-exist with his many bad - that's how he's so monstrous and dangerously unpredictable. For decades you could be his best friend and the second he feels slighted, you're nothing to him - that's terrifying and horrendous. I still don't know how Charles Brandon survived, given the risks he took!
I'm sad we don't have Wolf Hall Season 2 out here in the US yet but am grateful for your reviews Estelle. Thanks for sharing! This opening scene was emotional and impactful. Very well-done except for the wedding. Poor Anne I wonder if they started with her execution to foreshadow what will happen to Cromwell later on this season?
it will be coming in the US next year! :)
@@ElleHistory Looking forward to it!
I agree that the reality of Anne’s execution and Henry’s hunting and partying shown at the same time would have been more powerful, but it is what it is. Glad to see Cromwell is shown as ruthless as he actually was here. I loved the book and the first show but Cromwell was pitiless in the dissolution of the monasteries. He’s not a nice guy.
I love your analysis and agree that it would have been stronger to have shown Henry partying it up while the woman he had allegedly once loved was being executed. Furthermore, it kind of takes away from what's coming (spoiler)... Cromwell was executed on the same day as Henry married his 5th wife, Katherine Howard - and we know her sad fate. I also think what's overlooked here - and what was so effectively portrayed in Mantel's book - is the execution of the five innocent men and Cromwell's petty reasons for choosing them as scapegoats, but can't remember if that was portrayed in the previous season.
would it be possible for you to do a video giving your overview of the Hilary Mantel Cromwell trilogy? I know your specialism is Anne, but just perhaps overall to give your view on the depiction of Cromwell in the round, both as history, and as literature
I could definitely try to do that or even have a guest expert with me :)
@@ElleHistoryThat would be so helpful, cos I'm still not sure if I should read them or not :)
@@RogieVixenThe novels are literature, as opposed to simple story telling. They are extremely well researched and written.
Mantel writes most of the novels in the present tense, rather than in the past tense and switches into flashbacks a lot. So you need to concentrate a little on what you are reading.
If you enjoy literature and good writing, then I recommend reading them.
Cromwell knew or felt that if Anne stayed alive she may conspire or whisper against him even if divorced. She complicated things
Poor poor Anne - I think of her many times and speak her name out loud every time I hear the caw of a raven. That fat, spoilt, ugly, hideous, callous beast and"Cremuel" were monsterous, cowardly brutes to have done what they did. Trumped up charges of course Noone deserves such a dreadful end. RIP Anne and all the other poor souls that went the same terrible way.
My understanding is that at the end, in the tower and at the execution, the women who were around Anne were not necessarily loyal, but were people put there to spy and provide information on her. Please correct me if I’m wrong and I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. I would like to believe she had friends around her in the end, but apparently this was not the case.
It is my understanding that although the women were selected because they were from anti-Boleyn families, they grew fond of Anne during her imprisonment in the Tower and became very protective of her at the end in and in death.
Merci Elle!
you're welcome
One thing I also felt was wrong, aside from her clothing which is not accurate according to sources, is that the women placed her body in the arrow box on the scaffold. I thought they had to scramble to find anything suitable for a coffin because one wasn’t provided. Maybe they would have had to have done that, I’m not sure, but Anne’s clothing was given to the executioner as part of his payment, and they certainly wouldn’t have removed her gown in front of any crowd… maybe they carried her body to the chapel in the box, removed her costly outer clothing and then put her back in the box to bury her? I guess that might have been the case. But the scene didn’t feel right to me at the time I watched it.
Also, I’m not convinced that Jane felt any remorse for Anne Boleyn… but perhaps she would have felt fear. Certainly she was an active participant in Anne’s downfall, but she may have believed that Anne would only be annulled and banished, not murdered. If that were the case, imagine then thinking that, oh, he might not just annul our marriage if I don’t give him a son, he might kill me. That would be pretty terrifying, but I have a hard time feeling too sorry for Jane.
7:40 Objectively, I think having Henry getting married at the same moment Anne loses her head is, dramatically, the more powerful story. You don't seem to make any case at all here for why you think the historically accurate version would be more powerful. Of course, there are too many people who don't read books anymore who will walk away knowing that the wedding and the execution happened on the same day. I find that as unnecessary and irritating as I imagine you do; however, that doesn't seem to be the case you are arguing for.
Another reason maybe they didn't do it historically accurate is cos, like you described how they were enjoying themselves, that would cast Jane Seymour kind of unfavourably and God forbid we show anything negative about a Jane portrayal 🤷♀️🙄 (though I would personally love that. Sorry Jane, but you weren't an innocent in all this, what with the whispering poison in Henry's ear over his marriage). I want a three dimensional Jane Seymour for once please.
I don't love the way that Anne is written in this series (or book). Bitchy schemer vs someone of more depth.
I love Claire Foy but why didn't they give her brown contact lenses (like they gave blue ones Jenna Coleman for Victoria)?
Honestly it is not a great portrayal despite the fact that Foy’s acting was spectacular