As David says, it all depends on your environment. What I do is recirculate the wort until it reaches 52 degrees celsius. I then then start the transfer to my fermenter which has a temperature reading. I lower the transfer rate if it is falling below 20 degrees C or lower it if is rising up. It's a bit of tweaking but the results have always worked out. there's a few variables to play with that will achieve the same result. You can increase or drop the transfer rate or do the same with the cooling water rate. Ive done the same in distilling between heat and cooling and when you hit the sweet spot it's great. It's all part of the fun, remember....
I used calibers and a 2 liter measuring cup to dial in the flow rate... Turns out I was using too low a flow rate for two years now. No wonder the counterflow chiller seemed slow to me! Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I look forward to my next brew day to compare the time it takes to chill now that I'll be doing it correctly!
Hi David. Thank you for another great video. I have been considering to switch to a spiral chiller because the counterflow-chiller (or The Octopus, as I prefer to call it) has some drawbacks. The biggest issue for me is the problem with late hop additions. When you use a normal immersion chiller, the wort cools down from around 100 degrees to 70 degrees in few minutes. Once this temperature is reached the late hop additions won't loose their aroma and won't release more bitter oils into the wort. When I use The Octopus, it takes around 20-30 minutes to transfer the wort into the fermentation vessel. While this process is ongoing, part of the wort still sits in the Grainfather with the hops in it at around 90 degrees. This means, that the hop aroma is degraded and the bitterness of the beer slowly is increased. You can remove the hops from the wort before chilling if they are contained in a hop spider or a hop sock to avoid bittering, but it's difficult to save the aroma and flavours. I have been considering some alternative solutions, such as adding ice to the wort after the whirlpool. Or maybe even trying liquid nitrogen to get the wort down to 70 degrees before chilling.
All this time I have wondered why my counterflow chiller wasnt chilling the wort fast enough..I never knew it's the temp of the counterflow I need to use to pump into my fermenter I was always scared that the temp would flare up once in the fermenter, I will try this on the batch I'm making tonight. Thank you David!
Thank you for this video!! I will see what else you have. Need to learn! :-) You mention pushing out water/wort from the CFC using e.g. a bike pump. How would you do that? I do not quite get that.
Hi Michael, sorry for the late reply. For whatever reason YT did not pass me your comment. The bike pump is positioned to the CFC hose and you then pump it to add pressure.
Hi David, Just watched hours of your tubes. Just ordered a GF and planning my first day with it.. I'm a bit wondering about the right order. Switch of heat at boil end, use the hot wort to sanitize my CFC and then do the whirlpool? Or wait 5 min for convection to stop do the whirlpool and sterilise while pool is moving. Will I then not destroy the trub cone? I'm just wondering if I should sanitize earlier, I would then need to park the wort full CFC somewhere making a mess.. what's your recommendation? Thanks for support
Hi Christian, Congratulations. I suggest recirculating wort through the CFC at any point during the boil to sanitise it. Keep the heating on during this time. A few minutes will be enough. At 0 minutes you can switch off the heating and perform a wp. I hope this helps. Check out my GF quick start guide if you have not already.
Hey David, I saw on one of your videos you have a thermometer that is attached to your counterflow chiller. What is the name of that product? I would like to try and get my hands on one of those myself. Thanks, Gary
Hi David, a bit late to the party but I am about to upgrade to a counterflow chiller. What is your opinion on cold break? With an immersion chiller, all cold break remains in the kettle. With a CFC, it transfers into the fermenter. Is that a problem? Even a whirlpool before chilling does not prevent the cold break from getting into the fermenter.
I've been using the CFC upside down with good results. I will try it the right wat next time, if the hose is still long enough (had to cut it at one point because it leaked).
Using it upside down will be less efficient but it looks like you live in Scandinavia like me, so plenty of cold water and probably not such a huge deal :P
I would think that one of the main reasons it should be the right way round is that the wort then enters at the highest point. Once starting to flow down the spiral itself the wort will have plenty of help from gravity, making it an easier on the pump, as opposed to having to pump through the entire length of the spiral, additional weight of the pumped wort working against the pump. It’s all about physics, really. Hope this helps :)
Great Video! Thanks. Is it possible to cool the Wort after boiling using the CFC, and let it run back into the Grainfather. So i can lower the temperature from 100°C to 80°C for a cooler Whirlpool?
Many thanks Martin. It is possible yes. It will take some time though. If I do this then I use an immersion chiller for that part of the cooling then switch back to CFC later.
Hi David, Would you, or would you not, recommend using the counterflow chiller to reduce the wort temp after boil prior to whirlpooling, so that I could whirlpool hops at a lower temp, e.g. 63*C? My plan was then to use the counterflow chiller again prior to transferring the wort to my fermenter. If this was reasonable, would you recommend sterilising the counterflow chiller prior to the second use? Thanks.
I was hoping this video would contain advice as to how not to block the chiller. Mine always blocks, even with small amounts of hops. I don't want to use a spider. Is there anything that can be done please?
David, Do you know if the compression fitting on the wort inlet side of the chiller is reusable or one time use? I would like to lengthen the hose so the chiller can sit on my counter while i'm cooling wort. Thank you.
Hi Mike, sorry but I am unsure. To be on the safe side I would extend using a joining fitting between the existing hose and the new. My solution is to use a chair next to the GF, then there is no need to do any mods. I am also unsure how much you could extend this without compromising performance. Might be an idea to email GF directly about this.
It sometimes fails when you want to cool your wort to 80c before a bunch of whirlpool hop additions for example. Sometimes I can get it to drop from 100c to 80c in 6-7 minutes other times it's taken me 20mins which is irritating hops in the boil are now imparting extra bitterness... I find a normal immersion wort chiller to be more reliable for that bit... As a side note I like to run hot wort through my chiller towards the beginning of the boil do that's it's done rather than at the end...
Thanks. A CFC is really just designed for cooling the wort to pitching temp. You would be much better off using a spiral if you wish to do this. Personally if I want that result then I use hop tea instead. Always a better end result also :) It doesnt really matter when you run the boiling hot wort through the cfc, as long as you do :)
Why is a wort o meter required, is the temperature read out on the grainfather not adequate? I.e recirculate until pitching temp is achieved as gf temp gauge then switch off cooling water and transfer?
I turn my hose on full blast. In the video you said about .4 - .6 gallons per minute or I risk damaging the CFC. Wow. I get super cool wort in 5 minutes with my method. Have you heard of any CFC's breaking due to too much water?
Yes, with too much water pressure you can damage the CFC. It could be that your full blast is half the pressure that others could have. Some countries have higher water pressure than others.
Too much water pressure can blow the blue hose from the inlet compression fitting which mine did recently, a very brisk cold shower before I could get to turn off the pressure. I do have great results though with the CFC.
Wait, the counterflow chiller is copper? Source? I know copper has a high heat conductivity, but it can lead to produce toxic compounds soluble in weak acids. It's also not very easy to drain completely in my experience, which further underlines the potential problem. Normally, heat exchangers is corrosion-resistant stainless steel, due to its inertness with the wort, and copper is eliminated for anything process-related at most breweries.
Look at the CFC section on this page:- www.grainfather.com/shop/grainfather/grainfather-connect.html It's easy to drain, just pump it out. It just spend a couple of minutes doing this to be sure. It's far from the only chiller that is made from copper, to be honest.
That didn't answer the question why do they not use non toxic such as SS even if it is less efficient as leaching toxic compounds is a possibility even though it may be common practice to use copper in standard chiller spiral systems many manufacturers now offer SS chillers for this reason - very poor in my opinion of Grainfather seeing as they are now on series 2 of this CFC surely it should have been upgraded to SS
Hi, To be fair I wasn't asked why, I was asked for confirmation of the use of copper. As for why, that would be a question for GF themselves to answer. I am sure they would have a good answer for you.
Here is some information from John Palmer in regards to copper and brewing:- "Copper is a double-edged sword in brewing. It is beneficial before fermentation, but detrimental afterwards. Copper ions react with the hydrogen sulfide produced during fermentation and reduce it to insoluble copper sulfide, which is left behind with the trub and yeast cake. Switching to all stainless steel brewing equipment can lead to noticeable quantities of hydrogen sulfide and sulfur off-flavors and aromas in the beer. The use of copper wort chillers will provide all the copper necessary, as will including a short piece (1 inch) of copper tubing in the boil. Copper is a problem post-fermentation because it catalyzes staling reactions, including the production of hydrogen peroxide and can oxidize the alcohols to aldehydes. Finished beer should not be stored in contact with copper, although serving beer with copper tubing in a jockey box should not be a problem, because of the short contact time immediately before serving. Copper pennies will also work in the boil to supply necessary copper, as will brass, but the caveat with both pennies and brass is the zinc. While zinc is an important nutrient for yeast growth, it can be too much of a good thing. Corrosion of brass can cause increased acetaldehyde and fusel alcohol production due to high yeast growth when zinc concentrations exceed 5 ppm. Excess zinc can also cause soapy or goaty flavors. But like copper, brass is usually stable in wort and will turn dull with regular use as it builds up a passive oxide layer."
Indeed. I mean it's not your fault, you just facilitate information. It's just not very obvious/transparent. But running a pump dry isn't a super optimal situation either, as the liquid inside pumps usually acts as a lubricant for the impeller if i recall correctly.
![สาวเมืองเพชร - ธีเดช ทองอภิชาติ [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kEt7F9PvO3I/mqdefault.jpg)
As David says, it all depends on your environment. What I do is recirculate the wort until it reaches 52 degrees celsius. I then then start the transfer to my fermenter which has a temperature reading. I lower the transfer rate if it is falling below 20 degrees C or lower it if is rising up. It's a bit of tweaking but the results have always worked out. there's a few variables to play with that will achieve the same result. You can increase or drop the transfer rate or do the same with the cooling water rate. Ive done the same in distilling between heat and cooling and when you hit the sweet spot it's great. It's all part of the fun, remember....
🍻🍻🍻
I used calibers and a 2 liter measuring cup to dial in the flow rate... Turns out I was using too low a flow rate for two years now. No wonder the counterflow chiller seemed slow to me! Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I look forward to my next brew day to compare the time it takes to chill now that I'll be doing it correctly!
Great to hear :) It should be fast to cool this way :)
Hi David. Thank you for another great video.
I have been considering to switch to a spiral chiller because the counterflow-chiller (or The Octopus, as I prefer to call it) has some drawbacks. The biggest issue for me is the problem with late hop additions.
When you use a normal immersion chiller, the wort cools down from around 100 degrees to 70 degrees in few minutes. Once this temperature is reached the late hop additions won't loose their aroma and won't release more bitter oils into the wort. When I use The Octopus, it takes around 20-30 minutes to transfer the wort into the fermentation vessel. While this process is ongoing, part of the wort still sits in the Grainfather with the hops in it at around 90 degrees. This means, that the hop aroma is degraded and the bitterness of the beer slowly is increased.
You can remove the hops from the wort before chilling if they are contained in a hop spider or a hop sock to avoid bittering, but it's difficult to save the aroma and flavours.
I have been considering some alternative solutions, such as adding ice to the wort after the whirlpool. Or maybe even trying liquid nitrogen to get the wort down to 70 degrees before chilling.
.
Im about to start home brewing soon and love your videos. Please keep up the good work. Thanks again
Great to hear Mark, glad they are helping you :)
All this time I have wondered why my counterflow chiller wasnt chilling the wort fast enough..I never knew it's the temp of the counterflow I need to use to pump into my fermenter I was always scared that the temp would flare up once in the fermenter, I will try this on the batch I'm making tonight. Thank you David!
Great, glad you found this useful :)
I was here for the exact same readon. Did my first brew on the Grainfather yesterday and was lik "This is weird".
Now I think I understand a bit more!
Great to hear Michael 🍻
Just now i realised my mistakes. Thank you David!!!
Glad to be of help :)
Always learning something new and useful. Thanks again..
Many thanks John.
Thanks, great video . Where can I but the universal adapter mentioned in the video.
Thank you. Ebay is where I got mine :)
Thank you for this video!! I will see what else you have. Need to learn! :-)
You mention pushing out water/wort from the CFC using e.g. a bike pump. How would you do that? I do not quite get that.
Hi Michael, sorry for the late reply. For whatever reason YT did not pass me your comment. The bike pump is positioned to the CFC hose and you then pump it to add pressure.
Do you have a video on best practices with the CFC on the G40 model?
Not exactly but its going to be pretty much the same in fact.
Hi David,
Just watched hours of your tubes. Just ordered a GF and planning my first day with it.. I'm a bit wondering about the right order. Switch of heat at boil end, use the hot wort to sanitize my CFC and then do the whirlpool? Or wait 5 min for convection to stop do the whirlpool and sterilise while pool is moving. Will I then not destroy the trub cone? I'm just wondering if I should sanitize earlier, I would then need to park the wort full CFC somewhere making a mess.. what's your recommendation? Thanks for support
Hi Christian, Congratulations. I suggest recirculating wort through the CFC at any point during the boil to sanitise it. Keep the heating on during this time. A few minutes will be enough. At 0 minutes you can switch off the heating and perform a wp. I hope this helps. Check out my GF quick start guide if you have not already.
Another great video thanks David
🍻🍻🍻Much appreciated 🍻🍻🍻
Hey David, I saw on one of your videos you have a thermometer that is attached to your counterflow chiller. What is the name of that product? I would like to try and get my hands on one of those myself. Thanks, Gary
Hi Gary, that would be this little gem :- th-cam.com/video/qRR0yeu2vVc/w-d-xo.html
Hi David, a bit late to the party but I am about to upgrade to a counterflow chiller. What is your opinion on cold break? With an immersion chiller, all cold break remains in the kettle. With a CFC, it transfers into the fermenter. Is that a problem? Even a whirlpool before chilling does not prevent the cold break from getting into the fermenter.
Hi, Ive not really noticed any difference either way with homebrew batch sizes and regularly use both.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew Thanks, will give it a try then!
Cheers 🍻🍻🍻
I've been using the CFC upside down with good results. I will try it the right wat next time, if the hose is still long enough (had to cut it at one point because it leaked).
Using it upside down will be less efficient but it looks like you live in Scandinavia like me, so plenty of cold water and probably not such a huge deal :P
@@DavidHeathHomebrewThen it may be faster for chilling down to lager temperatures. Takk for flotte videoer, David!
Try it both ways and see but the way up as intended should give better results.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew i will
I would think that one of the main reasons it should be the right way round is that the wort then enters at the highest point. Once starting to flow down the spiral itself the wort will have plenty of help from gravity, making it an easier on the pump, as opposed to having to pump through the entire length of the spiral, additional weight of the pumped wort working against the pump. It’s all about physics, really. Hope this helps :)
Great Video! Thanks.
Is it possible to cool the Wort after boiling using the CFC, and let it run back into the Grainfather. So i can lower the temperature from 100°C to 80°C for a cooler Whirlpool?
Many thanks Martin. It is possible yes. It will take some time though. If I do this then I use an immersion chiller for that part of the cooling then switch back to CFC later.
Hi David,
Would you, or would you not, recommend using the counterflow chiller to reduce the wort temp after boil prior to whirlpooling, so that I could whirlpool hops at a lower temp, e.g. 63*C? My plan was then to use the counterflow chiller again prior to transferring the wort to my fermenter. If this was reasonable, would you recommend sterilising the counterflow chiller prior to the second use?
Thanks.
Hi, the way a CFC works does not make it ideal for such use. A spiral chiller will be faster for sure. These can be cheap to make yourself also :)
I was hoping this video would contain advice as to how not to block the chiller. Mine always blocks, even with small amounts of hops. I don't want to use a spider. Is there anything that can be done please?
Hi Lisa, I recommend doing a whirlpool or get yourself a false bottom. I hope this helps.
David,
Do you know if the compression fitting on the wort inlet side of the chiller is reusable or one time use? I would like to lengthen the hose so the chiller can sit on my counter while i'm cooling wort.
Thank you.
Hi Mike, sorry but I am unsure. To be on the safe side I would extend using a joining fitting between the existing hose and the new. My solution is to use a chair next to the GF, then there is no need to do any mods. I am also unsure how much you could extend this without compromising performance. Might be an idea to email GF directly about this.
I've extended mine at the that fitting and it works fine.
It sometimes fails when you want to cool your wort to 80c before a bunch of whirlpool hop additions for example. Sometimes I can get it to drop from 100c to 80c in 6-7 minutes other times it's taken me 20mins which is irritating hops in the boil are now imparting extra bitterness...
I find a normal immersion wort chiller to be more reliable for that bit...
As a side note I like to run hot wort through my chiller towards the beginning of the boil do that's it's done rather than at the end...
Thanks. A CFC is really just designed for cooling the wort to pitching temp. You would be much better off using a spiral if you wish to do this. Personally if I want that result then I use hop tea instead. Always a better end result also :) It doesnt really matter when you run the boiling hot wort through the cfc, as long as you do :)
Hi! When my wort comes out too cold, should i decrease the cold water pressure to get it a little warmer? Thanks. Great video
Yes, or turn it off briefly to allow the temps to raise.
Or increase the worth flow, maybe this is better because you can easily change it with the red tap of your kettle’s pump👍🏼
Will also work 🍻🍻🍻
Why is a wort o meter required, is the temperature read out on the grainfather not adequate? I.e recirculate until pitching temp is achieved as gf temp gauge then switch off cooling water and transfer?
Because when you use a counter flow chiller the temperature that is important is within the chiller not the brewer.
A CFC is not used in this way. You only recirculate for a short time until you transfer into your fermenter.
Cheers, I shouldnt of had to ask that question
No problem :)
Well done 👍🏻
Thank you :)
I turn my hose on full blast. In the video you said about .4 - .6 gallons per minute or I risk damaging the CFC. Wow. I get super cool wort in 5 minutes with my method. Have you heard of any CFC's breaking due to too much water?
Yes, with too much water pressure you can damage the CFC. It could be that your full blast is half the pressure that others could have. Some countries have higher water pressure than others.
Too much water pressure can blow the blue hose from the inlet compression fitting which mine did recently, a very brisk cold shower before I could get to turn off the pressure. I do have great results though with the CFC.
Wait, the counterflow chiller is copper? Source?
I know copper has a high heat conductivity, but it can lead to produce toxic compounds soluble in weak acids. It's also not very easy to drain completely in my experience, which further underlines the potential problem. Normally, heat exchangers is corrosion-resistant stainless steel, due to its inertness with the wort, and copper is eliminated for anything process-related at most breweries.
Look at the CFC section on this page:- www.grainfather.com/shop/grainfather/grainfather-connect.html
It's easy to drain, just pump it out. It just spend a couple of minutes doing this to be sure. It's far from the only chiller that is made from copper, to be honest.
That didn't answer the question why do they not use non toxic such as SS even if it is less efficient as leaching toxic compounds is a possibility even though it may be common practice to use copper in standard chiller spiral systems many manufacturers now offer SS chillers for this reason - very poor in my opinion of Grainfather seeing as they are now on series 2 of this CFC surely it should have been upgraded to SS
Hi, To be fair I wasn't asked why, I was asked for confirmation of the use of copper. As for why, that would be a question for GF themselves to answer. I am sure they would have a good answer for you.
Here is some information from John Palmer in regards to copper and brewing:- "Copper is a double-edged sword in brewing. It is beneficial before fermentation, but detrimental afterwards. Copper ions react with the hydrogen sulfide produced during fermentation and reduce it to insoluble copper sulfide, which is left behind with the trub and yeast cake. Switching to all stainless steel brewing equipment can lead to noticeable quantities of hydrogen sulfide and sulfur off-flavors and aromas in the beer. The use of copper wort chillers will provide all the copper necessary, as will including a short piece (1 inch) of copper tubing in the boil.
Copper is a problem post-fermentation because it catalyzes staling reactions, including the production of hydrogen peroxide and can oxidize the alcohols to aldehydes. Finished beer should not be stored in contact with copper, although serving beer with copper tubing in a jockey box should not be a problem, because of the short contact time immediately before serving.
Copper pennies will also work in the boil to supply necessary copper, as will brass, but the caveat with both pennies and brass is the zinc. While zinc is an important nutrient for yeast growth, it can be too much of a good thing. Corrosion of brass can cause increased acetaldehyde and fusel alcohol production due to high yeast growth when zinc concentrations exceed 5 ppm. Excess zinc can also cause soapy or goaty flavors. But like copper, brass is usually stable in wort and will turn dull with regular use as it builds up a passive oxide layer."
Indeed. I mean it's not your fault, you just facilitate information. It's just not very obvious/transparent.
But running a pump dry isn't a super optimal situation either, as the liquid inside pumps usually acts as a lubricant for the impeller if i recall correctly.
Wort is pronounced 'wert'.
It can be pronounced both ways these days. You will hear people use both.