A Call for Advice - Track Planning & Train Movements
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มี.ค. 2024
- A call for advice - track planning & train movements. Yup, I am asking for some insight for all of you who undoubtedly have a vast knowledge of these things. Far greater than my own to be sure. I have been diving down a few rabbit holes with my planning and indeed the finer workings of train movements concerning trackwork. So I am asking for some good advice and thoughts so that I and Julian can take a good look and I can move forward with the layout. Thanks in advance, Paul
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I just want to say a very big thank you to everyone who has taken the trouble to comment on this video and add welcome thoughts, suggestions and operational advice. It is all most welcome and please keep the thoughts coming. you are all very kind and generous with your time, best wishes Paul, Misty and Lobo
Change you points entering the harbor to a three way point, the closet to the harbor wall can be used for unloading and join the rear two so you have a run around loop.
Thank you for that Ill take a look, cheers P
Dear Paul, can’t really tell you what is best. Humbly think you could try out the different configurations for the harbor scene. Meaning, don’t put in any switch motors yet, just do some ‘hand of god’ switching to figure out the different ways you can operate the harbor in different ways. On the road crossing for the harbor, can imagine you don’t want to cover over your points, but your loading and unloading spurs can very well be done as a kind of team track road platform, without any ramps. Just looking at generic photos from different locations, harbor tracks are most often paved to the tracks. This of course means there’s plenty of space for vehicles to cross the tracks. A dedicated lining could help indicate the road for lorries and other vehicles. Kind of like a painted ‘barrier.’ Am not aware what period you want to model, but there’s plenty of examples on this kind of road striping for freight yards in larger and smaller harbors.
Nevertheless, the most important part is the question what rocks your proverbial operations boat? Does a stub ended harbor suit your ideas? Or does a run around? In both cases you may find you’ll need a dedicated spur for the switcher. Either to free up the loco at the end, or to temporarily store trucks when they need to be switched around. Also, include a straight piece of track before the bends. So, you can install an uncoupler and the different cars may freely move around the curved freight tracks. In that case you almost need a pushing switcher to butt up the different cars over the straight piece to make’m couple up properly.
Considering the fact that your space is restricted, I think it will pay off to do some experimenting on what kind of configuration will work for you. Cheerio
Thank you Vince, some well made points excuse the pun, cheers P
At the top of the hill you've got a significant size station with a yard and a TMD -- you'd have mainline trains arriving, plus goods trains and light locos so on.
To run all of that up there and back down, you need a way for them to get between the branch and the mainline.
Even if you don't typically operate it like that, you are going to want to get a loco from the TMD to the mainline and back, and you'll want to drive them rather than resorting to the sky-crane.
Does the junction need to be precisely there? No, it could also be put on the other side of the bridge. But it needs to be somewhere. To be "Technically Correct" it should be a single slip, but ... if you've got the double slip in stock and not any single slips, use the double slip.
At the lower station, the junction at the right hand end is important to allow locos to run round trains. In the era you are representing, the track would have been designed for 100% loco hauled trains, even for the small local services. Push-pull operation and DMUs are a new innovation in that era, and track layouts purpose designed for DMU only operation is a hallmark of rationalisation during the 1970s.
On the subject of the lower station, it sounds like you really want the station building at the back of the scene, behind the last track.
You could slew the middle track back towards the outer track, and have the island platform between tracks 1 and 2. That gives you (reading back to front):
Branch line
Vertical separation
Station building & platform.
Third platform track (used for terminating services)
Second platform track (used for outer mainline services)
Island platform
First platform track (used for inner mainline services)
Vertical separation
Harbour area
That would allow you to have the station building behind the 3rd line and not have a split platform.
Don't get too hung up on cars and carparks -- station car parks are generally recycled old goods yards, and in the era you are representing the goods yard is still present and in use. Road access is still important, but there may not be a "car park" in the sense we imagine them now -- driving to the station and parking there all day was just not something that was done back then. Cars would be picking up and dropping off, not staying all day.
The purpose of the headshunt is to allow a train to be shunted without fouling the mainline. It can also be a trap to stop wagons rolling out of the yard to a position where they would foul the mainline. As your harbour branch is some distance from the mainline junction and likely rises towards the mainline junction, you don't need a headshunt -- the approaching line is long enough to be used. To be "technically correct" again, you could put a trap point (a point to nowhere) in just before the mainline, so that any stray trains would exit to the inside. But almost no-one actually models working trap points, so don't worry about it too much.
What about a run-round in the harbour? You can have one if you want one, but you don't *need* one. If you don't have one, the dock shunter would always be on the left end of the train -- propelling the wagons into the harbour, and pulling them out. There'd be a yard nearby (... looking at the track plan, exactly where your fiddleyard is!) where wagons would be left by mainline trains waiting to be shunted into the harbour by an 0-4-0 or short wheelbase 0-6-0 shunter, and that yard would have the facility to run round.
Hi James and thank you, just recovering from a week of bad gut virus and will read this and share with Julian asap, cheers P
Oh Paul! Grrrr! There were times in this video when I just wanted to shake you….!
First and foremost, Julian’s concept is brilliant. It makes best use of your peculiar-sized space and will give you years of ‘play’ value. It’s your railway and, however you choose to operate it, is on course to become a classic layout.
Based on my past operating experience with London Underground, my hope is you concentrate on completing the main line figure-of-eight loop first, then the long connection to the upper branch line terminus. Key to operation of the double track main line is that one line is ‘Down’ and the other ‘Up’. This is why your connection from the single bi-directional branch line needs to connect to both of the main lines.
I had thought Julian’s plan allowed for an island platform serving one main line and the branch line (let’s say ‘Up’ at that location) and a single platform for the ‘Down’. Although the branch line would connect to the main lines, it can still operate as a self-contained terminus platform as, for example, at Oxenholme where Kendal branch trains terminate.
There’s no reason why this terminal platform shouldn’t be right up against the retaining wall. This allows for a wide island platform and sizeable ‘Down’ platform, all with large radius curves. On the prototype railway curved platforms aren’t favoured as they increase the platform-train interface gap, but there are many examples of them, such as Cheltenham, Tunbridge Wells and Brighton.
Your lovely pets were trying to show you something: remember you don’t have to confine your model to what’s behind a proscenium arch. Your audience can imagine road access and station car parks existing in the space where they are observing your layout. You don’t need to model them - think outside the box!
Finally (and, if you’re still with me, apologies for the length of my thoughts), don’t fret about the harbour scene yet. It ought to be the very last element which you model. My suggestion is you start at the back and work forward. That way you won’t disturb anything you’ve already modelled when completing the rest. FWIW, I would straighten out the lines in the harbour as you don’t need to bend them around. However, if you concentrate on the other elements first I estimate you won’t need to finalise plans for the harbour for another 12 months at least.
Anyway, hope this is of some use. Whatever you choose to do will still make highly enjoyable viewing.
Thank you so much for those thoughts, yes the plan is to adhere to what Julian and I created, my lack of knowledge caused a severe brain fog, and I needed a clarification, cheers P
Why not have the short head shunt with the track inlaid in the small roadway ? Then no need to have a level crossing. Most track at quaysides are usually in laid. Clive.
Clive that makes great sense thanks, cheers P
Hi Paul- Good progress and some exciting plans and looking forward to following the build . It is worth investing the time to ensure everything works.
Cheers Kev
Thanks Kev I totally agree with you, cheers P
I like the idea of the run around by the harbour myself thinking it gives a bit more flexibility in operations :)
I agree Chris, much more activity is available, cheers P
Lmao ...... keep all the junctions thats what makes a Railway or a Model of a Railway. Connect the mains to platform 1. and have a thru line in the middle line ( left to right) that is bi-directional for passing. Your shuttle should still work. The down main can use platform 1 and the through main does not have a platform. The up service can stop or divert to the bi-directional line right to left.
Room for movement and featuring of the branch lower and upper levels with a complex station profile in the middle. Head shunts provide space for an engine to wait for the work to be done. Headshunt goes to the top and the train is pushed into the goods branch. Road access is fine as suggested.
I am sure you've already sorted it by now. I will watch the rest of the video.
George many thanks, I am reading this several times lol, all good advice, cheers P
Every train set needs a kitten kong🤣👍👍
For sure, she was not going to take no for an answer, cheers P
I like your ideas, and would add some thoughts as follows - why not have two engines 'in steam' for the harbour line. No need for a runround loop (could be partly out of use through old age burried in the cobbles and rusted!) but the first loco could arrive with the train, push some wagons into the headshunt where you have it , then retire into siding off the end, maybe back on itself, to take water/coal maybe a small engine shed, then the second loco arrives light engine to take the loaded wagons. The first loco can do some shunting, leave full wagons in the headshunt, and leave light-engine. Fun!
Yup a good idea and will play around with that, cheers P
Have you thought about how the fish vans will be loaded? You will probably have a goods platform with a ramp so that trolleys can be pushed/pulled up to the level of the van floors. Either that or a fork lift truck, which may be outside your era. If you want two trains in the sidings at once and be able to run round the trains you'll need a third road. You could do that with a 3 way point at each end.
The other alternative is to keep the headshunt with a spare loco in it. A train pulls in, the loco uncouples, the spare loco comes out of the headshunt and attaches to the (now) front of the train to pull it out. The original loco then runs to the headshunt, ready to pull the next train out. The Great Eastern nicknamed that, at Liverpool Street, the Jazz Service.
As Clive noted, most of the track in this area woud be inlaid. Whether tarmac, concrete or cobbles is up to you. A bit of each wouldn't be unprototypical.
Henry thanks for that I do like the idea a lot, and I feel the need to Jazz up a little lol, cheers P
I would keep both junctions as they will give you a lot more possible routings rather than just a shuttle branch back and forth. Also with the junction at the other end of the station the branch loop would have a dual role as a place to get “local” trains off the mainline for faster train to pass through.
As far as the harbour scene, probably the run round is the technically better solution but you won’t be able to get very many wagons in the loops so perhaps the two roads with a head-shunt would be better. You could use the head-shunt to stable another loco which would then be able to shut the train and/or also pull it back out onto the mainline. Do remember you are going to pull trains off the mainline and back onto it, not push it, so need to get a loco to the front going into the yard and back out!
Hi John, yes this does seem to be the overall way forward and I thank you for taking the trouble, cheers P
Hello Paul, TIME 19.33 and to your left going past the Pliers, there is a set of points, that may be able to move more to the left, giving more space to the next set of point before the Harbour and the 2 tracks a Crossing and room for the loco's
I will check that out many thank, cheers P
@@Sandlingjunction just wondering if possible to send a JPG, something I put together on ANYRAIL into JPG
@@graemewilson4126 Yes, of course,
email paulappsfineart@icloud.com, I work on a mac so cannot run any rail, though I can at work if needs to be
@@Sandlingjunction I assume that the Fish Siding is on the level from the point(1) off the Main,
otherwise the wagons will want to try and run down hill, or from point 1 to point 2 could be down more than normal, after point(3) could be level to the Wharf and point (4), taking the empty on Track 3, will be back level to Point 3, then up a steep incline back to the main with full should be ok getting back to the main.
I am think this FISH TRAIN is running from left to right, if so Uncouple the MAIN LOCO, then couple the SHORT SHUNTER to take the empty wagons(Number of ??) in, only able to fill ONE TRACK(No1) per visit, then going back to the Main for the remainder for Track 2, if any of Track No1 wagons are now full, then the Shunter can shunt them to Track No3, going back and forth between 1 and 3 till all are full, then to work on Track 2 wagons next, hoping the Short Shunter can push up to the incline, past 3 and 2 to get into Main with loaded wagons, MAIN TRAIN to be sent to LONDON ??.
PS. the size of the RIGHT HAND SIDE of the layout, I have taken your Arms stretched out as 6foot, also the PERSON ACCESS in the middle - please
@@graemewilson4126 The area is all level Graeme
Harbor section I would say you need a runaround capability. Unlikely a freight train would propel a long distance, but it’s your railway. On the double slip on the mainline at the start of video, I have never seen to my knowledge a double slip on a mainline in my career. Normally yards, depots or in station areas, but you could use right hand points (4) to give access to/ from back line to /from mainlines. End of the day it’s your decision, hope that helps.
Thank you for the insight, I think space dictates the use of a slip, as I am at the ed of the lift out section, cheers P
Paul to aid movement by vehicles . Most dockside rails are set into the surface with just a groove for the cheeks of the wheels. Worth thinking of.
Yes it will definitely be created in that way, cheers P
Good Evening Paul, Reference to your harbour conumdrum! As I watched your video, Newquay Harbour immediatly sprang to mind, the days back in steam, when the railway opperated onto the quay to collect the fish and crab for London. I believe it would fit perfectly into your space. If you type in your seafch engine, Newquay Harbour Railway it wiil bring up lots of photograghs and other infomation, hopefully of which will be of an inspirational help. I fully understand your frustrations, giving I am although still in the planning stages and have modified a least a dozen times my plan, having decided something is not right. Hopefully, I shall be able to bring into existance The Bed-Sit Attic Model Railway in the near future. all the best regards Glenn.
Thanks for that Glenn I will check out that idea, cheers P
You could put an island platform in between your main lines and terminus platform for your shuttle, then you only need2 platforms, also have the option of the shuttle using the main lines if needed. Great layout by the way
Thank you, John, I realise that Julian and later James had those points in for good reason, I just had no idea why until now lol, cheers P
Peco code 75 concrete is a must have for any oo gauge modeller
Yes, it will be done this way as in the harbour area at Folkestone, cheers P
@@Sandlingjunctionbest thing i did was convert from peco code 100 concrete to peco code 75 concrete plus peco released peco code 75 concrete points which for me is a positive in my eyes, I even used gorilla wood glue to stick down the peco code 75 along with Tracksetta 21’’, Tracksetta 18’’, Tracksetta straight…… had to manipulate a curve as my oo gauge hattons intermodal transplant yellow struggled around a tight curve not sure what radius i had to deal with but got there in end thankfully
@@bachmannobsessed2234 I am using timber code 75 and will bury the sleepers into the surface of the harbour, cheers P
Reversing out of the fishing sidings creates a problem. Realistically, and more fun, is to go for the run round loop, to get the loco to the other end. Another train could enter, providing the loco has run round, leaving the loop free.
I think this is proving the best plan so far, cheers P
Re the Harbour scene, I like the idea of a short run around and I did a quick design in Anyrail to see what it might look like and found room for a short head shunt, I can't see how to post it here so I posted it on my Facebook page, but I can't post the link ? It's only a quick rough squiggle just to get across my idea. Re the DMU line I like both a terminus station and the ability to send it down to the fiddle yard so probably not much help.
I know it was put there for good reason, so think it will stay. I will find your facebook if I can, cheers P
You have had some good comments about your delema. It is your railway to play with, therefore you have the last word.
I would in the harbour scene Just after entering the road for the docks, a point to open an early two road then have a second point partway in making a three road access .. Make the middle road a run round loop, by putting a threeway point and a small shunt line to provide a release for the in coming loco to get out, the two others goods in and goods out roads with a shunter permanantly stationed in the area for truck moving for the dock workers to use
As for the Station delema Make the station three platformed, the track for the DMU's could be as you suggested a deadend road, the inner two being the main lines. everything you require is there. I would help if you require as greatstone aint far away
John thank you so much, I have had, including yours, a lot of ideas. I hope that I can sort it, but hey always a welcome visitor, cheers chum, P
Well, Paul, you know me and know that I am completely ignorant in these matters, so I can't help with any of your questions. But have you thought about renaming the channel The Sandling Misty Railway and Lobo Loco Show? 🤣. Love the idea of the harbour fishing scene, and as we mentioned earlier, just let me know when you need to measure the arches, I'll be happy to help x
Ps, great to see you have so many friends offering ideas for your dilemma. What a great community the model railway world is.
Thank you, Wendy, I like the channel title idea lol. Yes the railway modelling fraternity is full of really nice and helpful men and women who are only too willing to help. cheers P
Hi Paul, I would go with a small loco release area, is it possible to pull the point work back a little further where it is out of shot, to give you a little more space to work with?
All the best Allan
Hi Allen, yes I think I cant squeeze a little more, will look at the weekend, cheers P
Hi Paul ... Have you put yor design down with Anyrail ... I find that is the best way and you can then fine tune it ... I'm upgrading mine to Sheffield Midlan Station and has there are about 26 points etc it was Essential to get it right first time ... Regards John
Hi John, yes Julian is a wizz with Rail Modeller pro so it was all sorted that way, its the fine tweaking that I was concerned about, cheers P
Just a question, how do you change/service the DMU? As in if in the real world a train breaks down how do you replace it if not connected to the mainline?
I’d add the points and see how it works and then have a look before ballasting.
You could always have a buffer to stop the branch line at the terminus and a rusted out section after the Buffer to the mainline.
Cheers
Andy
Hi Andrew and thank you, yes the points were put in for a good reason and as you say are needed. So that will be retained, cheers P
Mate ( if I may ), and this might be too blunt ( I am known for that ) >>>> YOU ARE OVER THINKING just get on with your first plan, you can ALWAYS change things at a later date !!!!!!
Fair play and thank you. I have a habit of doing that, and am sure it will not be the last time I do, a good reminder lol, cheers P