The safety window AND the ability to enjoy a lean AFR at light load cruising speed in a street car is what makes EFI so great. In a nutshell, CONTROL is what makes EFI so wonderful..
@@Olds_Pwr Replacing the EFI with a carb is going to change the amount of power that the engine makes. I can't find any reference to the Festiva having MPI.
Rich, this is probably the best video I have seen on this subject. Very in depth and informative. Thank you! I for the most part, am an old school carb guy, but there is no doubt that fuel injection has its advantages too! To say one is outright better than the other would not be true. Each has their own perks and pitfalls! Keep up the great work!
Mr. Holder I just want to take a second and thank you for all that you do I'm a 50 year old man that has always enjoyed the hobby of cars . As I've gotten older and health Is Not What It has always been I've kind of come to the conclusion I don't have a whole lot of cars left to build. One of my dreams that I have never done is finally build one Ground Pounder, I have got a 63 Ford Fairlane bucket seat center console 3 on the tree Fairlane that I'm going to be building into a thunderbolt tribute car over the last year I have picked up a few variations of motors, I have a truck 6.0 that only had about 10,000 Miles when it was wrecked I also have an older 5.3 with about 150,000 miles and a 390 Fe did I was going to stroke out to 427 or thereabouts. Watching your videos has been so entertaining educational and even able to show more budget ways of doing things although I have yet decided what I'm going to do as a motor much less the injection you have opened up a whole new world for me, keep doing what you do especially for the younger generation what you give to us free here on TH-cam watching your videos the knowledge to make the right decision or the affordable decision out of everyone in the TH-cam world you have truly been a blessing and I just wanted to thank you for all of your hard work and all of your easy-to-follow videos. In Closing let me know what you want me to bring to you the Fe or the 6.0 so we can run it through its paces, LOL take care Master holder and thank you for all you do sincerely David Broome. Atlanta Georgia.
There's no reason ill informed people should be out there with all the knowledge you're spreading with these videos.I haven't built a car in years but still watch all these videos because the day will come when I build another one and all this information helps out tremendously
Absolute perfect description of both types, reasons and effects of how and why. This segways into a blow-thru comparison. It'd be good to show people how crazy cool the intake air gets with a blown through carb.
Probably the most informative video on TH-cam- I can tell myself that I know everything about induction but this guy can explain it (and back it up with results). If you truly understand something, it is easy to explain to others. Thanks for the learning experience!
Not crazy at all. When you figure the guys that designed, tested, and developed efi only had carbs as a base to improve from. The mindset was the same, and at the end of the day the engine needs x amount of air and x amount of fuel to make x amount of power. What's interesting is the charge cooling of the carb. I'd like to see this test with a 4bbl throttle body that has 4 injectors vs the carb. I bet the results would be the same (as far as charge cooling, not cylinder to cylinder distribution)
@@frankdatank7751 no it's because petrol goes down the intake manifold rather then being shot directly at the intake port. The petrol does the cooling.
Best video yet! Proves two things I tell people about a lot and they always ignore- AFRs doesn't have a drastic effect on power, but almost all intake setups have wildly differing airflow cyl to cyl, dangerously so! It's much worse with boost than N/A in my experience too. Good work sir, keep it up.
@@sprintcardriver8 the charge cooling on an E85 carb will be identical to a tbi EFI system. You won't get more charge cooling unless you add extra fuel. The disadvantage will be that on a carb setup you can't switch between regular and E85 without rejetting the carb.
Orion Smith just add water/methanol injection to the SFI. TBI is great if you’re just getting started with EFI but it has the exact same problem of high and low A/F cylinders as a carburetor does, due to the microscopic differences between runners, valve clearances, valve seat conditions, etc. unless you’re running 8 individual carbs or a manifold with perfectly tuned equal runners, and rebuilding your engine every 10 hours of run time, you’ll never get perfect A/F in each cylinder with any kind of fuel delivery in one single location.
Another great test. I would like to see the throttle body injected Units tested against carb and port, especially with forced induction. Also would like to see how well the gm efi manifolds distribute air. How about touching on hp and knock threshold vs coolant temp in forced induction applications.
The issue when using a carb or throttle body that is too big is, the larger you make the opening, the more the loss in velocity of the charge down the intake runner. I was surprised at how small the power diff was showing the Lambda chart. I was sure the richer AFR in green wasn't going to be as close to the others as it was. Great video!!!
Carb vs efi and results were almost the same. You did pick the right cam also. What people don't understand is, N/A the cam is limited by the heads that are used. VERY good test and proof of what the outcome was!
A long-term test would be interesting to see how/if A/F ratios and mileage changes with different seasons and elevations. Then a periodic dyno session thrown in where you test each one for power. You could even visit different dynos at different locations (temps/elevations) to see the power/efficiency difference between each setup even if the overall numbers don't matter. Carbs always do well on a dyno, but I think I would have a hard time keeping up with EFI performance in the real world unless I'm a carb savant.
In my nitrous carbed sbc we ran an msd7531 with the cam sync cable. Pulling timing on indivual cylinders cleaned plugs up or fattened them up depending on which way we were trying to go. Obviously weren’t pulling o2 readings off each cylinder but i would assume it’s gonna be the same effect of the sequential fi in terms of evening out the cylinders.
Very cool. Just added a sniper to my previously carbed LS1 in my 69 camaro. Love the way the car drives now. Totally worth the fuel pump and fan control.
Excellent video and very enlightening. It always scares me how different AFR is between cylinders , that's why I always tune richer than usual I might lose a couple of hp but the engine is safe
It would be interesting to test a few different common inlet manifolds (performance aftermarket and OEM) to observe what AFR variation from air distribution in each one.
As a first time viewer, I enjoyed this video. Someone actually posted it in a FB argument in an LSx swap group. They said carburetors make more power than FI due to better atomization. Me, knowing better, told them they are crazy. They posted this video in response. I greatly appreciate and respect your experiment here. Definitely more knowledgeable, experienced, and better equipped than I will [likely] ever be. But this isn't quite the full story. One point: if the carburetor does better down low, and then falls off in the upper RPMs, then looking at the A/F curve, you notice the carb is lean down low and becomes rich up high, why would you not mimic the FI curve to be more lean in lower RPMs? This video, as proper experiment should be, operated on an 'all things being equal' plane. You did a fantastic job of trying to eliminate variables between carb and FI here. But 'all things being equal' isn't the point of FI. That cuts off the massive benefits to FI. The point of FI is that you CAN do amazing things. You can tune each cylinder individually, the computer can rapidly adjust to radically different operating environments (cold weather, hot weather, humidity, altitude, etc). Infinite variability in the fuel injection. Simply not possible for carburetors without physically changing aspects of the carb. The massive amount of information and control that is possibly ONLY with FI makes it a no brainer. It doesn't do FI justice to have it compete against carburetion in a very static, one-mode only environment. The carburetor is perfectly tuned for that one environment, while the FI is tuned 99% as well over a wide range of environments. The POTENTIAL is much greater with FI. Also, if you say the carb'd engine benefits from charge cooling, I'd like to see what happens when you give colder air to the FI engine. Or maybe give colder air to both of them and see which benefits more.
Great video Richard. I think you really hit all the points on this one. You've also demonstrated why, when running poor quality fuel (e.g. California 91 octane) it's always better to err on the richer side under heavy load. The power hit is so minimal but I'd much rather be running 12-13:1 spread (I don't think its that bad on most factory LS manifolds, but maybe on some) than 13-14:1.
After I thought about this the camshaft was designed for boost not na, so that may make reversion happen on a carb on the top rpm vs. The fuel injection. It would make sense since the overlap and centerline on the cam wouldn't provide signal to the carbs circuit at high rpm
Yes afr makes little difference in power , however if the afr is corrected in each cylinder ,it lets you add timing and we all know that does make power so I think for that reason and others injection is better , however we didn’t talk about money. Thanks for a great video . Dwayne NZ.
@@richardholdener1727 your absolutely correct but you can change the curve if it’s going progressively richer or leaner in a certain area. Nothing beats highlight a cell and tapping some keyboard buttons. Thanks for all the videos !!
I'm so fed up with my stroked LS1 EFI im seriously about to move to a LS carb setup. I'm between a Edlebrock 800cfm intake carb kit carb swap and Edlebrock 4150 style Pro Flo 4+ setup. I rather spend hundreds of dollars on a nice carb then have to pay a tuner every time I need something done. And electronics like to fail. Great video! Been watching you since the 4.3L
Great video! Perhaps a video on carb versus injector further out from the valve, equal distance from the valve as the carb and further out to find the sweet spot of the cooling effect of the fuel.
You and Gale Banks are my go to channels when I want to see serious data and serious testing! Show me another diesel guy or a gas guy that shares more data! This satisfies my nerdy side so much, I love it!
great video. I learned carb (my home made rochestor) TBI (15psi) and multiport on the same engine. A boxer self balanced 3 main. the multiport allows engine to last longer with the same numbers. TBI goes lean instead of fat like carb would at the top... and in vast temperature ranges, the carb is simply a serial killer. I am now running an SBC from 1996 in my gmc truck..379k miles, no end in sight. drove all of them since the days of four barrel. My biggest engine was the 4 barrel... and the engine died very young. I usually sit back and let arguments fly today.. I just turned 47. your patience is very good. Multiport is the winner. no need to argue. Just get out in the real world and learn it.
Great information, highlights how important boosted engines need a reasonable a/f for each cylinder. Steve did the twin carb tuning a while back staggered the jet to get a reasonable distribution.. Great vid..
Fantastic comparison and very well done. Thanks for the charts and graphs to show hard data. I love that you unbiasedly compare stuff with solid results. Keep it up dude!
Biggest thing I see in this industry some guys gets it really complicated and confusing. Old racer told me years ago keep it simple and use common since I have listen to that statement he made to me years ago successful racer because he kept it simple and was inducted into hall Fame great guy consistant racer
I’ve seen back to back dyno runs where you change afr’s from say 13.0 down to 12.0, only difference is in safety. What surprised me was the carb vs efi and the individual cylinder tuning. I would of figured carb vs efi would make the same peak numbers but efi would make slightly more everywhere else. I also thought there would be more of a gain by individual cylinder tuning. But I guess if ignition timing was all controlled in the same way you’d get similar results
@@BlueCollarBen alot people actually do that, if you want to see how its done go on david frieburger's from roadkill TH-cam channel and he explains how it works, does seem to much of a power increase, 10hpish but he said he thinks the Ls firing order increases efficiency and longevity of the motor because it runs alittle smoother
@@BlueCollarBen me too hopefully someone will do it because I'd love to here a Ls with a sbc firing order. It would be the ultimate sleeper, minus the water pump sound that all Ls's have which completely gives it away
Although very few have access to a dyno, he did a good job of showing the strengths and weakness of each, and where there is little difference sometimes between the two. For a little guy on a budget I need info to help me not cook my stuff. No hype = good video!! I'll subscribe after this video.
HOLY COW !! I thought for sure the power difference would be a bunch!! NOT ! wow eye opening .. thank you so much for doing these videos to educate us !! (me) : )
would love to see the individual cylinder AFR of the carb, and also a comparison of a throttle body injection as well, seems a TBI with the tunability of efi and also the air charge cooling
Is the squeeze worth the juice? Meaning how long did it take to do the sequential tuning vs batch for the gains. Or just slap a carb on tune it a little rich and safe and go have fun?
You'll never catch me bitching in the comments.....I'm a young builder and will take every bit of info you want to give me....I love every video you make, keep it up
Now this is cool stuff. Test that go into detail as to why this or that works. One of the 1st real videos that I like from this channel (not trying to sound mean).
biggest difference between the carb and the batch EFI was Manifold Air Density/Manifold Air Temperature. Charge cooling has so many benefits as far as power production is concerned, and is the reason why older (2000-2013 N/A) F1 engines utilized Gantry-style injection, where the injectors were placed at the outer edge of the air horns. I would think the most ideal setup (with money as no object) would be a set of 8 ITB's put in a cross-ram style that can vary their intake runner length in the same fashion as the system utilized on the LaFerrari V12. That way you get all the benefits of control that come with Fuel injection, the charge cooling benefits of a carburetor, and an intake that can lengthen and shorten at will to match the demands of the engine for a given RPM/load/Throttle position.
great video but i was hoping you would hit on ignition timing as well. what is the power gain advantage of sequential injection since it is running safer? how much more timing can you run? and what's the power gain with that? is there any gain at all?
This is really good testing - thanks for posting! I am confident I can make your carburetor a/f flatter across the rpm band, richening the bottom and leaning out the top (at 14:58). You’re right - the bumps are harder to mitigate, and a lot has to do with the manifold, but you can make it better with a little bit more involved carb tweaks. Maybe we can work something out?? I’d like to take you up on the challenge... -Clayton (a.k.a. Dave N. Ebbert’s buddy)
Richard, not saying that I can tune a carb better than the next guy... On my tunnel ram setup I use a Fast dual channel Wideband.. I had a situation just like you had... At the very top it would go rich.. I tried everything.. I found that I could manipulate the AF curve at the very top on my setup by tuning the emulsion bleeds in the metering blocks.... every other change would do exactly what you said.. trade-off. Im wanting to test Annular boosters vs Stepped downlegs in my tunnel ram setup next!
I love this test, and I'm always amazed how surprisingly well carburetors work given everything that's stacked against them, specially when you consider the difference in cost. So many guys now put EFI on weekend cruisers that never see huge power output, and IMO its just not worth it unless you just want EFI. I love EFI in my modern daily driven Hemi, I'd use it if I had a drag car (even if I were using an old school big-block v8), but something just appeals to me about the elegant simplicity of a carb on my 60s 440s used for weekend cruising. Its cool that a device that's been around over a hundred years, with no electrical parts, and powered only by moving air doing 90% as good a job as something with 8 injectors, at least 5 sensors, and a computer. I'd also like to see one of those all-in-one TBI systems (FiTech or Sniper) thrown in the mix here. I have mixed feelings about them- on the one hand they should provide charge cooling throughout the intake just like a carb does while having at least the same AVERAGE AFR control of sequential port EFI for (theoretically) better cold starting and driveability. On the other hand, they should have all the same fuel distribution problems that carbs have. and all the failure points (injectors, sensors, computer, higher pressure fuel pump) of EFI.
MajorLeague after watching data logging on modern engines under varying load, it’s clear that a whole bunch of the efficiency and power gains we used to say were “because of fuel injection” were really from having a much more adaptable timing map.
Thank you. This was excellent. I missed the the cylinder to cylinder AFR with the carburetor. What about stagger jetting? To bad the Weber / Edelbrock etc. plates with emulsion turbes never was a success. I would also like to say you can have cylinder trim even if you run the injectors in batch mode and open them or close them at the same time.
Richard, your LS tech is best in the business. Keep up and let us know more. I would like to see more big inch LS testing, I have 416 short block waiting to get in older car and plan is to keep it looking like carburated but with efi.
I saw on summit that they have a fuel adjuster you can put under a carburetor, it goes into the wideband. Part numbers are 20-0001, 20-0002, or 20-0003
@@davidcunningham00 You can say the exact same thing about a carburetor. Neither system is infallible. Both my Celica and my Ram are efi and have never left me on the side of the road and the same is true of my old carbureted Camaro. My point was that electronic carb injection supplement system is an interesting idea - bridging the gap between a carb and efi and so, in a sense, a "poor man's efi".
I don't think that will work under acceleration. The change in fuel pressure will change the float level in the carb, and that wouldn't be responsive enough during WOT to make a difference. It may help in cruising, however.
Great content. Lean isn’t always mean. Every air pump is different. You have to give it what she wants. Dyno numbers/timeslips will tell you if your going the right direction.
I was thinking carb will win for overall power, but I think drivability and efficiency, fuel injection, I would like to see this with 823 heads and the 469 cam, throttle body versus ls3 intake. That’s what my build is looking like. Thanks for the great videos
The leaner is going to burn more efficiently. You might gain 10HP from 1 point. But what you gain in HP you lose in reliability. Always running on the ragged edge you’re going to be asking for problems. 90% of people don’t tune individual cylinders, so the actual AFR’s could swing wildly. (Edit) at the end you said the exact same thing. Lol
Richard there is a way to tune at a certain RPM with a carburetor and keep the carb rich at one spot and lean it out at another area. There is a guy on TH-cam that made his own product called the "Carb Cheater" and it uses an A/F meter to control a regulated air blead that meters air in the motor to reach a targeted A/F ratio that you set.
How about a LS 6L with carb and distributor conversion. I race in a Nost. Class with no computers. I run a mild 455 Olds now and think a 6L LS would take me from low 13's to very low 12's. 3:42 gears, 400 trans 3550 lbs with me.
@@richardholdener1727 wow...400hp will put me in low 12's. Best with 455 was 12.77 at 104. Freshened rings/bearings slight cam change ....went to 13.55 102. 1.72 short times to 1.84. LS looks good. Thanks.
Read down a bit and didn’t see if anyone questioned or you responded...did you grab the individual AF ratios for the carb? How bad was it? I would think the sequential injection is ideal for endurance applications requiring long runs at constant rpm?
With this information then a/f ratio with the single carb set-up versus fuel injection ,(sequential),what happens when you do dual carbs ?!?......Miss Engine Masters .no not a motor guy per say just love to feed on the information that really has helped my real world tool box of understanding my engine,(sbc 383),1904 carb ,dual plane ,solid divider wall soon ,(up from a modded out pm2101,to 2601),and a baby cam xr276.......The reason I got the subscription for MTO was you guys over at Engine Masters ...Anyway this was kinda just as good I got the fix I needed !
once the carb, carbs, or injectors achieve the correct AFR, then its all up to the intake runners to deliver that charge UNALTERED to the combustion chamber. how that correct AFR is achieved, the engine doesn't really care. all the engine cares about is that it has enough charge, and the AFR is correct, and the valve and timing events are optimal.
Thanks for educational video, answers questions about carb vs efi on 5.0 ford. You had mentioned it really is a difference of intakes, and I have seen the light my friend.
Hey Richard, it would be really interesting to see how closely your 8 different O2 sensors (and 8 from different manufacturers) would read in a single exhaust stream.
Could the smaller venturies on the carb be increasing velocity/cylinder filling over the larger throttle body of the efi? Would installing a throttle body with similar(750cfm) cfm ratings to the carb increase velocity/cylinder filling on the efi test raising the horsepower? Or would installing a 1000cfm dominator reduce the velocity/cylinder filling enough to show a substantial difference in power? Since the engine size is fixed, how much does venturi size effect velocity and efficiency of cylinder filling?
smaller barrels are either too small or they are not. so they starve at the top end, or they work just fine. bigger barrels are either too big or they are not. so either they bog on the bottom end, or they work just fine. the trick is to find the size that is not too big and not too small - IE just right. unless all you care about is going fast, then put on the biggest thing you can, and just crack it open less.
I know Nascar could tune individual cylinders with a carb I would like to see how they are able to do this in a upcoming video that would be pretty awesome.Also what about a setup like a Holly sniper setup that takes advantage of the air charge like a carb but is a F.I. system. That would make a good video also. 😁
I have used an rpm triggered solenoid to manipulate the air bleed size, but that's on a single cylinder 4 stroke ATV which have really extreme swings in AFR thanks to the carb being in the middle of the intake runner. Different application, but I thought you may like the idea.
It’d be interesting to run SEFI except add in an extra injector at the throttle body to supply ~20% of the fuel to take advantage of charge cooling but still have individual cyl tuning.
Richard, these test are really informative! You're doing test people haven't done or at least recorded. I really appreciate the effort and knowledge you bring
Pretty cool test. How about a 1 inch open spacer for both the throttle body and carb, also would a shear plate help the carb? Tri-Y headers? Collector length?
Great data, I'd love to run a WB on each cyl, but your test goes to show that EFI vs Carb is almost negligible in your results. However I would love to see the comparison of DI vs EFI. Good work!
The safety window AND the ability to enjoy a lean AFR at light load cruising speed in a street car is what makes EFI so great. In a nutshell, CONTROL is what makes EFI so wonderful..
Control and consistency. EFI automatically compensates for a huge range of conditions giving consistent operation, carbs don't.
Not to mention mpg increases w fuel injection!
@@Olds_Pwr Then your EFI was either programmed incorrectly, or just a terrible design.
@@Olds_Pwr Then the carbed engine was making significantly less power. A single-point injection system also isn't the height of EFI technology.
@@Olds_Pwr Replacing the EFI with a carb is going to change the amount of power that the engine makes. I can't find any reference to the Festiva having MPI.
Outstanding video!
Uncle Tony's Garage : Pretty cool UT. But hes got no beard. And he needs a New Jersey. Hed get more hits with mohair....
Uncle Tony's Garage agreed!!!
Uncle Tony!!! Woohoo!!! Very cool seeing ya here!
Video and audio quality seems to be getting better with every video. Keep them coming!
Hitman Productions sponsorship helps with that
Rich, this is probably the best video I have seen on this subject. Very in depth and informative. Thank you! I for the most part, am an old school carb guy, but there is no doubt that fuel injection has its advantages too! To say one is outright better than the other would not be true. Each has their own perks and pitfalls! Keep up the great work!
Did enjoy the close relationship between the two though shows that carbs aren't crappy archaic technology and still work well
Mr. Holder I just want to take a second and thank you for all that you do I'm a 50 year old man that has always enjoyed the hobby of cars . As I've gotten older and health Is Not What It has always been I've kind of come to the conclusion I don't have a whole lot of cars left to build. One of my dreams that I have never done is finally build one Ground Pounder, I have got a 63 Ford Fairlane bucket seat center console 3 on the tree Fairlane that I'm going to be building into a thunderbolt tribute car over the last year I have picked up a few variations of motors, I have a truck 6.0 that only had about 10,000 Miles when it was wrecked I also have an older 5.3 with about 150,000 miles and a 390 Fe did I was going to stroke out to 427 or thereabouts. Watching your videos has been so entertaining educational and even able to show more budget ways of doing things although I have yet decided what I'm going to do as a motor much less the injection you have opened up a whole new world for me, keep doing what you do especially for the younger generation what you give to us free here on TH-cam watching your videos the knowledge to make the right decision or the affordable decision out of everyone in the TH-cam world you have truly been a blessing and I just wanted to thank you for all of your hard work and all of your easy-to-follow videos. In Closing let me know what you want me to bring to you the Fe or the 6.0 so we can run it through its paces, LOL take care Master holder and thank you for all you do sincerely David Broome. Atlanta Georgia.
There's no reason ill informed people should be out there with all the knowledge you're spreading with these videos.I haven't built a car in years but still watch all these videos because the day will come when I build another one and all this information helps out tremendously
Oh yes this was the one I was waiting on.
Absolute perfect description of both types, reasons and effects of how and why.
This segways into a blow-thru comparison. It'd be good to show people how crazy cool the intake air gets with a blown through carb.
james Mcguinness love to see that test!
@@leroyt2590 I saw this a couple weeks ago.
th-cam.com/video/BzvyXGwOMcw/w-d-xo.html
Probably the most informative video on TH-cam- I can tell myself that I know everything about induction but this guy can explain it (and back it up with results). If you truly understand something, it is easy to explain to others.
Thanks for the learning experience!
I think its time to bring in a Sniper & put it to the test, all its functions!
Carbs are awesome crazy how century old technology makes just as much power as efi
Efi was created for economy, better distribution and atomization of fuel plus automatic adjustment via the MAF, o2 sensors.
Not crazy at all. When you figure the guys that designed, tested, and developed efi only had carbs as a base to improve from. The mindset was the same, and at the end of the day the engine needs x amount of air and x amount of fuel to make x amount of power. What's interesting is the charge cooling of the carb. I'd like to see this test with a 4bbl throttle body that has 4 injectors vs the carb. I bet the results would be the same (as far as charge cooling, not cylinder to cylinder distribution)
@@shadowopsairman1583 carburetors atomiz fuel better thats why they will always have a cooler ait
@@frankdatank7751 no it's because petrol goes down the intake manifold rather then being shot directly at the intake port. The petrol does the cooling.
Best video yet! Proves two things I tell people about a lot and they always ignore- AFRs doesn't have a drastic effect on power, but almost all intake setups have wildly differing airflow cyl to cyl, dangerously so!
It's much worse with boost than N/A in my experience too.
Good work sir, keep it up.
Thank you Richard, for taking the time to educate us!!
Another good test ready to see the difference between blow thru carb vs blow thru fuel injection
nallen100 there's no other way of getting fuel to a forced induction engine so u don't have much of a choice unless ur running vegetable oil lol
nallen100 that's what I meant factory FI
nallen100 I'm going with blow thru e85 carb that way I don't need an intercooler since it cools the charge better then efi and tuning is more simple
@@sprintcardriver8 the charge cooling on an E85 carb will be identical to a tbi EFI system. You won't get more charge cooling unless you add extra fuel. The disadvantage will be that on a carb setup you can't switch between regular and E85 without rejetting the carb.
Great tests as always! I’m glad you brought up charge temp. Makes for a great backup test using a TBI setup such as a Holley Sniper X-Flow.
Orion Smith just add water/methanol injection to the SFI. TBI is great if you’re just getting started with EFI but it has the exact same problem of high and low A/F cylinders as a carburetor does, due to the microscopic differences between runners, valve clearances, valve seat conditions, etc. unless you’re running 8 individual carbs or a manifold with perfectly tuned equal runners, and rebuilding your engine every 10 hours of run time, you’ll never get perfect A/F in each cylinder with any kind of fuel delivery in one single location.
Another great test. I would like to see the throttle body injected Units tested against carb and port, especially with forced induction.
Also would like to see how well the gm efi manifolds distribute air.
How about touching on hp and knock threshold vs coolant temp in forced induction applications.
The issue when using a carb or throttle body that is too big is, the larger you make the opening, the more the loss in velocity of the charge down the intake runner. I was surprised at how small the power diff was showing the Lambda chart. I was sure the richer AFR in green wasn't going to be as close to the others as it was. Great video!!!
Agreed been wanting this answer for a very long time you just answered it thanks again I'm old school carb is for me
Carb vs efi and results were almost the same. You did pick the right cam also. What people don't understand is, N/A the cam is limited by the heads that are used. VERY good test and proof of what the outcome was!
A long-term test would be interesting to see how/if A/F ratios and mileage changes with different seasons and elevations. Then a periodic dyno session thrown in where you test each one for power. You could even visit different dynos at different locations (temps/elevations) to see the power/efficiency difference between each setup even if the overall numbers don't matter. Carbs always do well on a dyno, but I think I would have a hard time keeping up with EFI performance in the real world unless I'm a carb savant.
In my nitrous carbed sbc we ran an msd7531 with the cam sync cable. Pulling timing on indivual cylinders cleaned plugs up or fattened them up depending on which way we were trying to go. Obviously weren’t pulling o2 readings off each cylinder but i would assume it’s gonna be the same effect of the sequential fi in terms of evening out the cylinders.
timing does not have the same effect as changes in AF
Man, I just found your channel the other day. This stuff is pure gold! Keep it up.
Another Great Test, Richard!
Very cool. Just added a sniper to my previously carbed LS1 in my 69 camaro. Love the way the car drives now. Totally worth the fuel pump and fan control.
Excellent video and very enlightening. It always scares me how different AFR is between cylinders , that's why I always tune richer than usual I might lose a couple of hp but the engine is safe
It would be interesting to test a few different common inlet manifolds (performance aftermarket and OEM) to observe what AFR variation from air distribution in each one.
As a first time viewer, I enjoyed this video.
Someone actually posted it in a FB argument in an LSx swap group.
They said carburetors make more power than FI due to better atomization.
Me, knowing better, told them they are crazy. They posted this video in response.
I greatly appreciate and respect your experiment here. Definitely more knowledgeable, experienced, and better equipped than I will [likely] ever be.
But this isn't quite the full story.
One point: if the carburetor does better down low, and then falls off in the upper RPMs, then looking at the A/F curve, you notice the carb is lean down low and becomes rich up high, why would you not mimic the FI curve to be more lean in lower RPMs?
This video, as proper experiment should be, operated on an 'all things being equal' plane. You did a fantastic job of trying to eliminate variables between carb and FI here.
But 'all things being equal' isn't the point of FI. That cuts off the massive benefits to FI.
The point of FI is that you CAN do amazing things. You can tune each cylinder individually, the computer can rapidly adjust to radically different operating environments (cold weather, hot weather, humidity, altitude, etc). Infinite variability in the fuel injection. Simply not possible for carburetors without physically changing aspects of the carb. The massive amount of information and control that is possibly ONLY with FI makes it a no brainer.
It doesn't do FI justice to have it compete against carburetion in a very static, one-mode only environment. The carburetor is perfectly tuned for that one environment, while the FI is tuned 99% as well over a wide range of environments. The POTENTIAL is much greater with FI.
Also, if you say the carb'd engine benefits from charge cooling, I'd like to see what happens when you give colder air to the FI engine. Or maybe give colder air to both of them and see which benefits more.
CHARGE COOLING
Great video Richard. I think you really hit all the points on this one. You've also demonstrated why, when running poor quality fuel (e.g. California 91 octane) it's always better to err on the richer side under heavy load. The power hit is so minimal but I'd much rather be running 12-13:1 spread (I don't think its that bad on most factory LS manifolds, but maybe on some) than 13-14:1.
After I thought about this the camshaft was designed for boost not na, so that may make reversion happen on a carb on the top rpm vs. The fuel injection. It would make sense since the overlap and centerline on the cam wouldn't provide signal to the carbs circuit at high rpm
Yes afr makes little difference in power , however if the afr is corrected in each cylinder ,it lets you add timing and we all know that does make power so I think for that reason and others injection is better , however we didn’t talk about money. Thanks for a great video . Dwayne NZ.
You didn’t mention emulsion tuning. Most these billet blocks have adjustable jets for that. You can change the curve
you can't change AF at a specific rpm point without changing it elsewhere in a carb
@@richardholdener1727 your absolutely correct but you can change the curve if it’s going progressively richer or leaner in a certain area. Nothing beats highlight a cell and tapping some keyboard buttons. Thanks for all the videos !!
I'm so fed up with my stroked LS1 EFI im seriously about to move to a LS carb setup. I'm between a Edlebrock 800cfm intake carb kit carb swap and Edlebrock 4150 style Pro Flo 4+ setup. I rather spend hundreds of dollars on a nice carb then have to pay a tuner every time I need something done. And electronics like to fail. Great video! Been watching you since the 4.3L
Great video! Perhaps a video on carb versus injector further out from the valve, equal distance from the valve as the carb and further out to find the sweet spot of the cooling effect of the fuel.
Great video and information! So awesome to watch these videos and see these test that I wish I could do!
I’m a carb guy. But you can’t deny the benefits of EFI. Cool vid. The knowledge is just incredible.
I’m a carb guy and I thought EFI was gonna win by a decent bit…. Glad to see this.
You and Gale Banks are my go to channels when I want to see serious data and serious testing! Show me another diesel guy or a gas guy that shares more data! This satisfies my nerdy side so much, I love it!
great video. I learned carb (my home made rochestor) TBI (15psi) and multiport on the same engine. A boxer self balanced 3 main. the multiport allows engine to last longer with the same numbers. TBI goes lean instead of fat like carb would at the top... and in vast temperature ranges, the carb is simply a serial killer. I am now running an SBC from 1996 in my gmc truck..379k miles, no end in sight. drove all of them since the days of four barrel. My biggest engine was the 4 barrel... and the engine died very young. I usually sit back and let arguments fly today.. I just turned 47. your patience is very good. Multiport is the winner. no need to argue. Just get out in the real world and learn it.
Great information, highlights how important boosted engines need a reasonable a/f for each cylinder. Steve did the twin carb tuning a while back staggered the jet to get a reasonable distribution.. Great vid..
GRIFFS REARMOUNT TURBO, The Modfather Glad you saw this vid. Love CARBS!
Staggered jetting works well on tunnel rams
Like the way you explain why and show what's happening.
I've never been a complete LS fan......but I'm getting there. What an amazing engine!
Fantastic comparison and very well done. Thanks for the charts and graphs to show hard data. I love that you unbiasedly compare stuff with solid results. Keep it up dude!
before watching i was thinking the LSA would favor the EFI. i'll edit at end. Not surprised at all. well done Rich.
Biggest thing I see in this industry some guys gets it really complicated and confusing. Old racer told me years ago keep it simple and use common since I have listen to that statement he made to me years ago successful racer because he kept it simple and was inducted into hall Fame great guy consistant racer
I’ve seen back to back dyno runs where you change afr’s from say 13.0 down to 12.0, only difference is in safety. What surprised me was the carb vs efi and the individual cylinder tuning. I would of figured carb vs efi would make the same peak numbers but efi would make slightly more everywhere else. I also thought there would be more of a gain by individual cylinder tuning. But I guess if ignition timing was all controlled in the same way you’d get similar results
You have the most informative videos going right now, keep it up!!!
Richard, pure gold! Thank you!
BTW, we've known how to tune a carb at any RPM, vacuum, and throttle position setting for a couple decades now.
I really want to see an LS engine with a SBC firing order swap side by side power comparison!
Me too! Glad I'm not the only one who was wondering that
See I want a SBC with the LS firing order and see the difference. Perhaps they will do both?
@@BlueCollarBen alot people actually do that, if you want to see how its done go on david frieburger's from roadkill TH-cam channel and he explains how it works, does seem to much of a power increase, 10hpish but he said he thinks the Ls firing order increases efficiency and longevity of the motor because it runs alittle smoother
Classic Car Garage yep I saw his video on it. I would still like to see just a side by side comparison.
@@BlueCollarBen me too hopefully someone will do it because I'd love to here a Ls with a sbc firing order. It would be the ultimate sleeper, minus the water pump sound that all Ls's have which completely gives it away
Although very few have access to a dyno, he did a good job of showing the strengths and weakness of each, and where there is little difference sometimes between the two. For a little guy on a budget I need info to help me not cook my stuff. No hype = good video!! I'll subscribe after this video.
Great comparison Richard , the reality is even for most people who get their stuff dyno’d they don’t get each cylinder measured individually.
HOLY COW !! I thought for sure the power difference would be a bunch!! NOT ! wow eye opening .. thank you so much for doing these videos to educate us !! (me) : )
would love to see the individual cylinder AFR of the carb, and also a comparison of a throttle body injection as well, seems a TBI with the tunability of efi and also the air charge cooling
Is the squeeze worth the juice? Meaning how long did it take to do the sequential tuning vs batch for the gains. Or just slap a carb on tune it a little rich and safe and go have fun?
The big thing that running rich really allows is changing the timing. Wonder how power compares if you change the timing for each curve?
Always knowledgeable and unbiased!
This really shows why it's important to run rich under high load and boost. Individual cylinder afr variance can be super dramatic
Excellent videos such valuable info that such a small percentage people ever get to see or learn.
You'll never catch me bitching in the comments.....I'm a young builder and will take every bit of info you want to give me....I love every video you make, keep it up
Now this is cool stuff. Test that go into detail as to why this or that works. One of the 1st real videos that I like from this channel (not trying to sound mean).
biggest difference between the carb and the batch EFI was Manifold Air Density/Manifold Air Temperature. Charge cooling has so many benefits as far as power production is concerned, and is the reason why older (2000-2013 N/A) F1 engines utilized Gantry-style injection, where the injectors were placed at the outer edge of the air horns. I would think the most ideal setup (with money as no object) would be a set of 8 ITB's put in a cross-ram style that can vary their intake runner length in the same fashion as the system utilized on the LaFerrari V12. That way you get all the benefits of control that come with Fuel injection, the charge cooling benefits of a carburetor, and an intake that can lengthen and shorten at will to match the demands of the engine for a given RPM/load/Throttle position.
How about throttle body injection? You wont be able to tune as much as port injection but you would get the cooling effects.
Is it true that a carburetor sounds better on a engine? Does it actually sound any different than EFI through the exhaust?
great video but i was hoping you would hit on ignition timing as well. what is the power gain advantage of sequential injection since it is running safer? how much more timing can you run? and what's the power gain with that? is there any gain at all?
This is really good testing - thanks for posting!
I am confident I can make your carburetor a/f flatter across the rpm band, richening the bottom and leaning out the top (at 14:58). You’re right - the bumps are harder to mitigate, and a lot has to do with the manifold, but you can make it better with a little bit more involved carb tweaks.
Maybe we can work something out?? I’d like to take you up on the challenge...
-Clayton (a.k.a. Dave N. Ebbert’s buddy)
Come tune my carbed LS! i just did the swap and man i tell you its hard because im not use to it but damn im having a good time learning about it!
Richard, not saying that I can tune a carb better than the next guy... On my tunnel ram setup I use a Fast dual channel Wideband.. I had a situation just like you had... At the very top it would go rich.. I tried everything.. I found that I could manipulate the AF curve at the very top on my setup by tuning the emulsion bleeds in the metering blocks.... every other change would do exactly what you said.. trade-off. Im wanting to test Annular boosters vs Stepped downlegs in my tunnel ram setup next!
I love carb vs EFI vids…great accurate comparison
Excellent video. Makes you wonder what all the debate is about when it is so close, but my preference for injection has always been the tunability.
I love this test, and I'm always amazed how surprisingly well carburetors work given everything that's stacked against them, specially when you consider the difference in cost. So many guys now put EFI on weekend cruisers that never see huge power output, and IMO its just not worth it unless you just want EFI. I love EFI in my modern daily driven Hemi, I'd use it if I had a drag car (even if I were using an old school big-block v8), but something just appeals to me about the elegant simplicity of a carb on my 60s 440s used for weekend cruising. Its cool that a device that's been around over a hundred years, with no electrical parts, and powered only by moving air doing 90% as good a job as something with 8 injectors, at least 5 sensors, and a computer.
I'd also like to see one of those all-in-one TBI systems (FiTech or Sniper) thrown in the mix here. I have mixed feelings about them- on the one hand they should provide charge cooling throughout the intake just like a carb does while having at least the same AVERAGE AFR control of sequential port EFI for (theoretically) better cold starting and driveability. On the other hand, they should have all the same fuel distribution problems that carbs have. and all the failure points (injectors, sensors, computer, higher pressure fuel pump) of EFI.
MajorLeague after watching data logging on modern engines under varying load, it’s clear that a whole bunch of the efficiency and power gains we used to say were “because of fuel injection” were really from having a much more adaptable timing map.
Thank you. This was excellent. I missed the the cylinder to cylinder AFR with the carburetor. What about stagger jetting? To bad the Weber / Edelbrock etc. plates with emulsion turbes never was a success. I would also like to say you can have cylinder trim even if you run the injectors in batch mode and open them or close them at the same time.
Richard, your LS tech is best in the business. Keep up and let us know more. I would like to see more big inch LS testing, I have 416 short block waiting to get in older car and plan is to keep it looking like carburated but with efi.
Ok I want to see a tube ls blow through carb set up vs injections. How well does charge cooling work in a blown setup. Inercoled or not
Not much of a factor if you run methanol.
I saw on summit that they have a fuel adjuster you can put under a carburetor, it goes into the wideband. Part numbers are 20-0001, 20-0002, or 20-0003
lol, that's interesting. Kinda a poor man's efi.
@@177SCmaro well you might think that, but it your efi goes done your stuck on the side of the road, me I'll be driving on my carb
@@davidcunningham00 You can say the exact same thing about a carburetor. Neither system is infallible. Both my Celica and my Ram are efi and have never left me on the side of the road and the same is true of my old carbureted Camaro. My point was that electronic carb injection supplement system is an interesting idea - bridging the gap between a carb and efi and so, in a sense, a "poor man's efi".
I don't think that will work under acceleration. The change in fuel pressure will change the float level in the carb, and that wouldn't be responsive enough during WOT to make a difference. It may help in cruising, however.
@@177SCmaro ooo I agree. I am thinking about getting it, I do run nitrous and that would keep me in a af I want
this was interesting as hell. fantastic work.
How different was the cylinder to cylinder O2 on carb. Not that you can control it just curious.
Was going to ask the same, i have seen deflectors used to adjust or trip the flow from one cyl to another..it takes a lot of time..
I was thinking the same thing. 3?
the cylinder to cylinder was similar to batch-its the intake
It's been done it's a huge difference depends on the intake
Great content. Lean isn’t always mean. Every air pump is different. You have to give it what she wants. Dyno numbers/timeslips will tell you if your going the right direction.
I was thinking carb will win for overall power, but I think drivability and efficiency, fuel injection, I would like to see this with 823 heads and the 469 cam, throttle body versus ls3 intake. That’s what my build is looking like. Thanks for the great videos
The leaner is going to burn more efficiently. You might gain 10HP from 1 point. But what you gain in HP you lose in reliability. Always running on the ragged edge you’re going to be asking for problems. 90% of people don’t tune individual cylinders, so the actual AFR’s could swing wildly.
(Edit) at the end you said the exact same thing. Lol
Richard there is a way to tune at a certain RPM with a carburetor and keep the carb rich at one spot and lean it out at another area. There is a guy on TH-cam that made his own product called the "Carb Cheater" and it uses an A/F meter to control a regulated air blead that meters air in the motor to reach a targeted A/F ratio that you set.
How about a LS 6L with carb and distributor conversion. I race in a Nost. Class with no computers. I run a mild 455 Olds now and think a 6L LS would take me from low 13's to very low 12's. 3:42 gears, 400 trans 3550 lbs with me.
a cammed 6.0l will easily make over 500 hp
@@richardholdener1727 wow...400hp will put me in low 12's. Best with 455 was 12.77 at 104. Freshened rings/bearings slight cam change ....went to 13.55 102. 1.72 short times to 1.84. LS looks good. Thanks.
Read down a bit and didn’t see if anyone questioned or you responded...did you grab the individual AF ratios for the carb? How bad was it? I would think the sequential injection is ideal for endurance applications requiring long runs at constant rpm?
thx Richard ,, cleared out all the mud ..
With this information then a/f ratio with the single carb set-up versus fuel injection ,(sequential),what happens when you do dual carbs ?!?......Miss Engine Masters .no not a motor guy per say just love to feed on the information that really has helped my real world tool box of understanding my engine,(sbc 383),1904 carb ,dual plane ,solid divider wall soon ,(up from a modded out pm2101,to 2601),and a baby cam xr276.......The reason I got the subscription for MTO was you guys over at Engine Masters ...Anyway this was kinda just as good I got the fix I needed !
they do good stuff there
once the carb, carbs, or injectors achieve the correct AFR, then its all up to the intake runners to deliver that charge UNALTERED to the combustion chamber. how that correct AFR is achieved, the engine doesn't really care. all the engine cares about is that it has enough charge, and the AFR is correct, and the valve and timing events are optimal.
Thanks for educational video, answers questions about carb vs efi on 5.0 ford. You had mentioned it really is a difference of intakes, and I have seen the light my friend.
Very interesting. Thankyou! No mention of fuel droplet size though... It's not an easy thing to play around with but it can be important.
The Ultra XP is a great carb & seems to be always close on jetting out of the box.
Hey Richard, it would be really interesting to see how closely your 8 different O2 sensors (and 8 from different manufacturers) would read in a single exhaust stream.
This guy is awesome. So much information.
Can you somehow combine both? Use the carburetor for the cooling but running lean, and inject exactly the amount each cylinder needs.
Could the smaller venturies on the carb be increasing velocity/cylinder filling over the larger throttle body of the efi? Would installing a throttle body with similar(750cfm) cfm ratings to the carb increase velocity/cylinder filling on the efi test raising the horsepower? Or would installing a 1000cfm dominator reduce the velocity/cylinder filling enough to show a substantial difference in power? Since the engine size is fixed, how much does venturi size effect velocity and efficiency of cylinder filling?
it changes cylinder filling less than atomization
smaller barrels are either too small or they are not. so they starve at the top end, or they work just fine.
bigger barrels are either too big or they are not. so either they bog on the bottom end, or they work just fine.
the trick is to find the size that is not too big and not too small - IE just right.
unless all you care about is going fast, then put on the biggest thing you can, and just crack it open less.
Your videos are starting to become really interesting!
I know Nascar could tune individual cylinders with a carb I would like to see how they are able to do this in a upcoming video that would be pretty awesome.Also what about a setup like a Holly sniper setup that takes advantage of the air charge like a carb but is a F.I. system. That would make a good video also. 😁
Great video Richard, and yes there is room for both!
I have used an rpm triggered solenoid to manipulate the air bleed size, but that's on a single cylinder 4 stroke ATV which have really extreme swings in AFR thanks to the carb being in the middle of the intake runner. Different application, but I thought you may like the idea.
It’d be interesting to run SEFI except add in an extra injector at the throttle body to supply ~20% of the fuel to take advantage of charge cooling but still have individual cyl tuning.
Richard, these test are really informative! You're doing test people haven't done or at least recorded. I really appreciate the effort and knowledge you bring
This was a fantastic video. Really interesting with lots of good data and comparisons!!!
Pretty cool test. How about a 1 inch open spacer for both the throttle body and carb, also would a shear plate help the carb? Tri-Y headers? Collector length?
all good ideas
Simply spectacular !
Great data, I'd love to run a WB on each cyl, but your test goes to show that EFI vs Carb is almost negligible in your results. However I would love to see the comparison of DI vs EFI. Good work!