Miscommunication is a way of explaining why an idiot plot happens. Like, "Oh, they had a miscommunication, now they're too emotional to talk about the freaking OBVIOUS thing that any normal person would mention in 3 minutes."
another big issue with The Last Jedi is that, aside from there being no real reason for Holdo to not inform the people under her command about her plan, is that the entire situation that requires her 'plan' in the first place was overly convoluted. for one, the plot expects you to be surprised that the Empire is tracking them; like, tracking ships has been established for YEARS. it's how Tarkin and Vader found the rebel base on Yavin, by tracking the Falcon. it's how Obi-Wan followed Jango and the Slave I to Geonosis; this is not fucking new second, as you said there was no indication Holdo believed there was a spy. but, as an alternative: someone would have to plant a tracking beacon on one of their ships, which could have been a perfect excuse to imply an infiltrator and thus a good reason for mistrust. Then, instead of throwing Poe under the bus in a pointless mutiny, have him prove himself as trustworthy and work WITH Holdo to rat out the traitor, making her more likable in the process. but instead they have that stupid device on the Empire's ships, meaning no tracked, meaning pretty much zero reason for Holdo to have doubts about telling people her fucking plan. in other words, it's not just the characters being stupid; it's the movie IGNORING ESTABLISHED LORE (again) in favor of convoluted bullshit that makes Holdo seem extremely idiotic. among MANY other issues, but I digress.
It would have made more sense if the resistance didn't know about the tracker, and we get Holdo telling an aide or Leia or something that she suspects tracking devices have been planted on all the Resistance ships. It would make First Order spies seem like they were everywhere. It would be misplaced but understandable paranoia, rather than sheer arrogance.
Save for half-baked arguments made by pretentious people who think literary criticism is whatever they dislike about anything, I see the issue with idiot plots to be a problem with break of expectations set by the author. Like, sure, one may call any story setting where the characters act less than perfectly rational an idiot plot and hate on it, but like, there are cases and cases. I hate when people whine about for example how people in a horror movie will do dumb decisions that gets them killed, yeah they're doing dumb decisions, they're literally being chased/stalked/haunted by a monster/killer/ghost, distress is a wrench on anyone's mental faculties! And yeah, sure, one may hate how lovers who misunderstand each other will escalate the conflict to the point it is dramatic and horrible over something that a literal honest talk would solve, but like, that is a completely believable setting, because relationships are complicated and full of heavily charged emotions, and people can become each others' and their own worst enemies when they let their egos and internal problems front the way they interact with others. But yes, on the other hand, I do get horribly frustrated with for example a lot of superhero movies and how their plots happen and can devolve into idiot plots, and I think I can pinpoint they why, it's because of the superheroes' characters themselves. They're set up to be these perfectly smart, very cool, awesomely skilled, super strong, always-comes-off-on-top sort of characters (that feel a lot like the writers' power fantasies) and having them act any less than perfect goes against their So CoolTM characterization, I mean, you don't expect Superman to become horrifyingly terrified of something to the point of cornering himself into inevitable defeat when chased by some villain, you don't expect Captain America to do irrational decisions based on impulse because he's letting his hurt ego blind him in a rage, and you don't expect a Jedi to be extremely ignorant and chaotic in their behavior to the point of ironic absurdism. Anything that breaks the perfectly shaped mold of said characters easily falls into the questionable behavior category, and like, why wouldn't it, the author set the character up to be a certain way and yet you see them acting in another, contradictory way. And I think that's what separate good from bad idiot plots, because you can easily have a character create their own problems and problems for others, if it is established that they are in such a manner that could possibly cause those problems that drive the plot. And I think that is where the idiot plot can be classified as bad writing. Sure, the author got too lazy and cut corners when pushing for this plot instead of creating a way and justification for their perfect characters to be acting so irrational is one way to see it, but I personally think it's an issue in the characterization itself, that doesn't allow for truly exploitable flaws, or the author doesn't stop to think about these flaws. Because a lot of bad decisions done are irrational if you have a broad perspective, but can be reasonably justifiable within the framework of one's mind and personal dealings, or they can be retroactively justified in some way by the person itself. And like, it makes sense, no one likes feeling irrational, but their flaws can literally get in the way of their own decision process, limiting their options and distorting their rationale. I think it's a problem of bad writing because it's clearly an issue of the author not stopping to think about how the character would think or feel, they just want to conciliate a character they set up in one way with a plot idea that would not necessarily fit the character as they are. And also I think it's a case of bad writing because a lot of times it can be the product of a shallow character that isn't fully human, and is more like a conjoining of different appealing traits the author likes. Anyways, I think it's a very interesting trope that got bastardized by edgy teens and Twitter YA authors on the internet having severe critical literacy issues, and it hurts me because like, I *love* idiot plots. There's something so deeply relatable about comedies where the character just keeps on getting into trouble after trouble because they can't get their act together and let their own chaos and anxiety get the best of them to the point things snowball out of proportion. There's something so touchingly human about how one's personal overlooked flaws can be their own downfall and sometimes even terrible end in tragedies. There's something so deeply interesting in seeing how one's flaws can cause so much impact in the world around them, and how everyone is an idiosyncratic creature that doesn't fully act logical, because we are not fully logical, we're creatures of flesh and blood prone to so many blindspots and bouts of anger and different degrees of impulsiveness that leads to dumb decisions. Idiot plots are a really fun mirror to look at when executed right, but yes, they are a glaring writing flaw when executed poorly.
Makes me think of a comment on the original video: An Idiot Plot can work, as long as the author can convince the audience that the characters are actually as dumb as the plot requires. Paraphrasing, of course.
It's not that it's bad, it's just that it was meant to be something else but got changed by higher ups because they felt it would make more money as a show instead of a movie
The young girl cast as young Leia is absolutely perfect. Ewan and Hayden do an outstanding job reprising their roles and there are some very good lines. It just felt drawn out, made way longer than it needed to be
love how every time you end up saying "this is a tangent completely unrelated" as if thats not what we are here for lmao we know the drill
Miscommunication is a way of explaining why an idiot plot happens. Like, "Oh, they had a miscommunication, now they're too emotional to talk about the freaking OBVIOUS thing that any normal person would mention in 3 minutes."
Miraculous Ladybug makes way too much use of idiot plots
It's funny, Holdo's behaviour actually made me think *she* was a traitor.
another big issue with The Last Jedi is that, aside from there being no real reason for Holdo to not inform the people under her command about her plan, is that the entire situation that requires her 'plan' in the first place was overly convoluted. for one, the plot expects you to be surprised that the Empire is tracking them; like, tracking ships has been established for YEARS. it's how Tarkin and Vader found the rebel base on Yavin, by tracking the Falcon. it's how Obi-Wan followed Jango and the Slave I to Geonosis; this is not fucking new
second, as you said there was no indication Holdo believed there was a spy. but, as an alternative: someone would have to plant a tracking beacon on one of their ships, which could have been a perfect excuse to imply an infiltrator and thus a good reason for mistrust. Then, instead of throwing Poe under the bus in a pointless mutiny, have him prove himself as trustworthy and work WITH Holdo to rat out the traitor, making her more likable in the process.
but instead they have that stupid device on the Empire's ships, meaning no tracked, meaning pretty much zero reason for Holdo to have doubts about telling people her fucking plan.
in other words, it's not just the characters being stupid; it's the movie IGNORING ESTABLISHED LORE (again) in favor of convoluted bullshit that makes Holdo seem extremely idiotic. among MANY other issues, but I digress.
It would have made more sense if the resistance didn't know about the tracker, and we get Holdo telling an aide or Leia or something that she suspects tracking devices have been planted on all the Resistance ships. It would make First Order spies seem like they were everywhere.
It would be misplaced but understandable paranoia, rather than sheer arrogance.
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Save for half-baked arguments made by pretentious people who think literary criticism is whatever they dislike about anything, I see the issue with idiot plots to be a problem with break of expectations set by the author. Like, sure, one may call any story setting where the characters act less than perfectly rational an idiot plot and hate on it, but like, there are cases and cases. I hate when people whine about for example how people in a horror movie will do dumb decisions that gets them killed, yeah they're doing dumb decisions, they're literally being chased/stalked/haunted by a monster/killer/ghost, distress is a wrench on anyone's mental faculties! And yeah, sure, one may hate how lovers who misunderstand each other will escalate the conflict to the point it is dramatic and horrible over something that a literal honest talk would solve, but like, that is a completely believable setting, because relationships are complicated and full of heavily charged emotions, and people can become each others' and their own worst enemies when they let their egos and internal problems front the way they interact with others.
But yes, on the other hand, I do get horribly frustrated with for example a lot of superhero movies and how their plots happen and can devolve into idiot plots, and I think I can pinpoint they why, it's because of the superheroes' characters themselves. They're set up to be these perfectly smart, very cool, awesomely skilled, super strong, always-comes-off-on-top sort of characters (that feel a lot like the writers' power fantasies) and having them act any less than perfect goes against their So CoolTM characterization, I mean, you don't expect Superman to become horrifyingly terrified of something to the point of cornering himself into inevitable defeat when chased by some villain, you don't expect Captain America to do irrational decisions based on impulse because he's letting his hurt ego blind him in a rage, and you don't expect a Jedi to be extremely ignorant and chaotic in their behavior to the point of ironic absurdism. Anything that breaks the perfectly shaped mold of said characters easily falls into the questionable behavior category, and like, why wouldn't it, the author set the character up to be a certain way and yet you see them acting in another, contradictory way. And I think that's what separate good from bad idiot plots, because you can easily have a character create their own problems and problems for others, if it is established that they are in such a manner that could possibly cause those problems that drive the plot.
And I think that is where the idiot plot can be classified as bad writing. Sure, the author got too lazy and cut corners when pushing for this plot instead of creating a way and justification for their perfect characters to be acting so irrational is one way to see it, but I personally think it's an issue in the characterization itself, that doesn't allow for truly exploitable flaws, or the author doesn't stop to think about these flaws. Because a lot of bad decisions done are irrational if you have a broad perspective, but can be reasonably justifiable within the framework of one's mind and personal dealings, or they can be retroactively justified in some way by the person itself. And like, it makes sense, no one likes feeling irrational, but their flaws can literally get in the way of their own decision process, limiting their options and distorting their rationale. I think it's a problem of bad writing because it's clearly an issue of the author not stopping to think about how the character would think or feel, they just want to conciliate a character they set up in one way with a plot idea that would not necessarily fit the character as they are. And also I think it's a case of bad writing because a lot of times it can be the product of a shallow character that isn't fully human, and is more like a conjoining of different appealing traits the author likes.
Anyways, I think it's a very interesting trope that got bastardized by edgy teens and Twitter YA authors on the internet having severe critical literacy issues, and it hurts me because like, I *love* idiot plots. There's something so deeply relatable about comedies where the character just keeps on getting into trouble after trouble because they can't get their act together and let their own chaos and anxiety get the best of them to the point things snowball out of proportion. There's something so touchingly human about how one's personal overlooked flaws can be their own downfall and sometimes even terrible end in tragedies. There's something so deeply interesting in seeing how one's flaws can cause so much impact in the world around them, and how everyone is an idiosyncratic creature that doesn't fully act logical, because we are not fully logical, we're creatures of flesh and blood prone to so many blindspots and bouts of anger and different degrees of impulsiveness that leads to dumb decisions. Idiot plots are a really fun mirror to look at when executed right, but yes, they are a glaring writing flaw when executed poorly.
Makes me think of a comment on the original video:
An Idiot Plot can work, as long as the author can convince the audience that the characters are actually as dumb as the plot requires.
Paraphrasing, of course.
Haven't watched Kenobi (yet). This is the first bad review I've heard.
It's not that it's bad, it's just that it was meant to be something else but got changed by higher ups because they felt it would make more money as a show instead of a movie
The young girl cast as young Leia is absolutely perfect. Ewan and Hayden do an outstanding job reprising their roles and there are some very good lines. It just felt drawn out, made way longer than it needed to be