When Red went into being careful of other cultures my mind immediately went to Bionicle. Infamously there was a lawsuit against the series for the use of the Maori people’s language for characters and objects so they made a whole story arc to explain why some characters got their names changed as well as changing the name of the entire dominant species. They couldn’t change everything though but it was more restrictive when naming newer characters from now on. I don’t believe this storyline was in a book though, I believe it was a game.
*opening rambling so focused on city centers for what urban fantasy is* Me: ...I don't think he knows what the genre is, but it is confusingly named And then started the video and yep 😂
23:18 You should check out Red's Miscellaneous Myths on Aphrodite and Dionysus. That's where those excerpts come from; also they're very cool videos that tackle a lot of historical context for the evolution of the deity as we know them today.
As someone who has done a paper on the literary genre P5 happens to be, nope it being an Urban environment is not needed, it just needs to take place in the modern world. Percy Jackson notably does happen in the mid-late 2000s and has elements of those, like buses, trains, phones, etc, in addition to the fantasy of the Greek Gods. Meanwhile, Harry Potter, while happening in the 1990s, barely mentions what is happening in the 90s or the tech available. There are some plot elements in there like the main character is generally someone who has one foot in each of the two worlds (another reason why HP is dqed while PJ isn't) and must solve a conflict that is more black and white than in, say, a soap opera. Also, urban fantasy stories also borrow a lot from the detective noir genre, at least aesthetic-wise, because a lot of what we consider early urban fantasy was influenced by detective noir.
22:52 Yeah, neither was I when I first watched this. Red kinda sporadically veers into this kind of discussion a lot, and while for some topics it's predictable, for others it catches me off guard. I'm retrospect this one makes sense, but to me it just seemed obvious that if you're going to write a story built around mythology and folklore, you'd do your research. Even if you go ahead and mess around with things, I'm a firm believer in the adage of "Know the rules before you break them," because knowing how something works is really important to being able to effectively mess with it. If you don't know how fairies are supposed to work, you probably shouldn't be writing them in the first place, but you definitely shouldn't mess around with how they work. 29:34 That's not what she was getting at with the neopagans. They don't count like Hinduism not because it doesn't count as punching down, but because European paganism very nearly completely died out, and the majority of modern pagans are revivals or reconstructions of those old religions. So I effect they're doing the same thing a fantasy author would be, looking at the uile sources, interpreting them, and just applying it to life instead of fiction. It would be bad if your story was representing those neopagan beliefs, but not if it's representing the original ones since the original religion died out, stopped being actively believed in. EDIT: On that last point, just to clarify, I personally don't care that much, being Catholic is fairly easy to hide in daily life, and most of the criticism I encounter comes through the protective shield of internet anonymity. But on the other hand, 8 do feel like the internet is one of the only places I can safely talk about being Catholic, and I have friends and relatives who care far more about that than I do. 8 just have never cared much about what people think of me, though I'm not fully oblivious to it either. Most of them aren't in the kind of social justice circles to give them the vocabulary to express these kinds of problems coherently, and even I'm more on the outer edge of those circles.
You know, I actually started with a comment about how your definition was too narrow and urban fantasy wasn't limited to urban setting, but after a quick bit of research, I think Red's definition is too broad and you're right. I've never seen Harry Potter categorized as urban fantasy and yet it would fit Red's definition to a tee. Then again genres and labels are dynamic things and are meant to be redefined and debated.
I think the fact that Harry Potter isn’t urban fantasy is covered by Red’s discussion of unfamiliar problems being solved in familiar ways. Between the “technology doesn’t work around magic” rule and Harry’s sheltered (neglectful/abusive) upbringing, modern (for the setting) technology and pop culture references go almost entirely unmentioned other than the couple scenes at the beginning of each book when Harry’s with the Dursleys. Harry Potter isn’t urban fantasy for the same reason Narnia isn’t, once he takes the train or they go through the wardrobe, the familiar world is largely forgotten.
I will forever be upset the Infinity Train movie was canceled and the series won’t have the eight season plan. It was such a great series and touches on serious subject matters like divorce, birth problems, grief of losing a loved one, existentialism, on screen murder, dehumanization, friends becoming enemies, and a car crash with casualties. All while still being a PG show!
*Red:* You have to be careful and sensitive when using real, practiced religions as inspiration for characters and themes in your story. *Japan:* [Sweats Nervously]
Yeah, so many anime shows really like using Christian and Norse cultures, but mostly on a small surface level or in-name only, with the ones directly using the stories from the original sources usually downgrading them or changing the characters depicted nearly beyond recognition, with a few exceptions like Attack on Titan (though only on a thematic level).
My solution is all my monsters are urban legends whit the actual myths being a thing. Greek monsters exist, except they are explicitly wrong because their myth got messed up by cultural apropation. As belief in the unreal makes things real.
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When Red went into being careful of other cultures my mind immediately went to Bionicle. Infamously there was a lawsuit against the series for the use of the Maori people’s language for characters and objects so they made a whole story arc to explain why some characters got their names changed as well as changing the name of the entire dominant species. They couldn’t change everything though but it was more restrictive when naming newer characters from now on. I don’t believe this storyline was in a book though, I believe it was a game.
*opening rambling so focused on city centers for what urban fantasy is*
Me: ...I don't think he knows what the genre is, but it is confusingly named
And then started the video and yep 😂
23:18 You should check out Red's Miscellaneous Myths on Aphrodite and Dionysus. That's where those excerpts come from; also they're very cool videos that tackle a lot of historical context for the evolution of the deity as we know them today.
Already happened about a year ago I believe.
@@tusken9669 Huh. You're right. It looks like he forgot about it. Not surprising given how much stuff he reacts to.
As someone who has done a paper on the literary genre P5 happens to be, nope it being an Urban environment is not needed, it just needs to take place in the modern world. Percy Jackson notably does happen in the mid-late 2000s and has elements of those, like buses, trains, phones, etc, in addition to the fantasy of the Greek Gods. Meanwhile, Harry Potter, while happening in the 1990s, barely mentions what is happening in the 90s or the tech available. There are some plot elements in there like the main character is generally someone who has one foot in each of the two worlds (another reason why HP is dqed while PJ isn't) and must solve a conflict that is more black and white than in, say, a soap opera. Also, urban fantasy stories also borrow a lot from the detective noir genre, at least aesthetic-wise, because a lot of what we consider early urban fantasy was influenced by detective noir.
I personally do write a lot of urban fantasy but that's probably inspired by the fact that Percy Jackson is literally my favorite book series ever.
22:52 Yeah, neither was I when I first watched this. Red kinda sporadically veers into this kind of discussion a lot, and while for some topics it's predictable, for others it catches me off guard. I'm retrospect this one makes sense, but to me it just seemed obvious that if you're going to write a story built around mythology and folklore, you'd do your research. Even if you go ahead and mess around with things, I'm a firm believer in the adage of "Know the rules before you break them," because knowing how something works is really important to being able to effectively mess with it. If you don't know how fairies are supposed to work, you probably shouldn't be writing them in the first place, but you definitely shouldn't mess around with how they work.
29:34 That's not what she was getting at with the neopagans. They don't count like Hinduism not because it doesn't count as punching down, but because European paganism very nearly completely died out, and the majority of modern pagans are revivals or reconstructions of those old religions. So I effect they're doing the same thing a fantasy author would be, looking at the uile sources, interpreting them, and just applying it to life instead of fiction. It would be bad if your story was representing those neopagan beliefs, but not if it's representing the original ones since the original religion died out, stopped being actively believed in.
EDIT: On that last point, just to clarify, I personally don't care that much, being Catholic is fairly easy to hide in daily life, and most of the criticism I encounter comes through the protective shield of internet anonymity. But on the other hand, 8 do feel like the internet is one of the only places I can safely talk about being Catholic, and I have friends and relatives who care far more about that than I do. 8 just have never cared much about what people think of me, though I'm not fully oblivious to it either. Most of them aren't in the kind of social justice circles to give them the vocabulary to express these kinds of problems coherently, and even I'm more on the outer edge of those circles.
You know, I actually started with a comment about how your definition was too narrow and urban fantasy wasn't limited to urban setting, but after a quick bit of research, I think Red's definition is too broad and you're right. I've never seen Harry Potter categorized as urban fantasy and yet it would fit Red's definition to a tee. Then again genres and labels are dynamic things and are meant to be redefined and debated.
I think really somewhere in the middle is probably right. One is too narrow, but the other is too broad.
I think the fact that Harry Potter isn’t urban fantasy is covered by Red’s discussion of unfamiliar problems being solved in familiar ways. Between the “technology doesn’t work around magic” rule and Harry’s sheltered (neglectful/abusive) upbringing, modern (for the setting) technology and pop culture references go almost entirely unmentioned other than the couple scenes at the beginning of each book when Harry’s with the Dursleys. Harry Potter isn’t urban fantasy for the same reason Narnia isn’t, once he takes the train or they go through the wardrobe, the familiar world is largely forgotten.
I will forever be upset the Infinity Train movie was canceled and the series won’t have the eight season plan. It was such a great series and touches on serious subject matters like divorce, birth problems, grief of losing a loved one, existentialism, on screen murder, dehumanization, friends becoming enemies, and a car crash with casualties. All while still being a PG show!
Sometime, i just wish that people from Cartoon Network just stop litsen to the parents and just do what ever their want to air in the first place
*Red:* You have to be careful and sensitive when using real, practiced religions as inspiration for characters and themes in your story.
*Japan:* [Sweats Nervously]
Yeah, so many anime shows really like using Christian and Norse cultures, but mostly on a small surface level or in-name only, with the ones directly using the stories from the original sources usually downgrading them or changing the characters depicted nearly beyond recognition, with a few exceptions like Attack on Titan (though only on a thematic level).
Man, I some how completely missed that Red mentioned Magnus Archives in this one!
I would describe Anne MCaffrey's Pegasus series to be one of the best urban fantasy settings, with some unfortunately 1960s holdovers.
she uploaded today as well, coinsidense I think not
My solution is all my monsters are urban legends whit the actual myths being a thing. Greek monsters exist, except they are explicitly wrong because their myth got messed up by cultural apropation. As belief in the unreal makes things real.