the best thing about this video is the incredible effort and editing you put into it. this was a labor of love. thank you for including me in the process.
I've run up a ridiculous amount of hours in CoH and CoH2. I genuinely have no idea why I'd buy CoH3. It's an RTS and it won't run on my PC acceptably. A PC that will still run Warthunder at 60FPS at reasonable quality and high resolution. Thanks for the video - great quality and all - but I feel like your audience is somewhat limited by the fact as a fan of Relic since 1996 - if I'm not buying CoH3 - I'm not sure who they felt their target market was?
To be fair, the BAR wasn't really used as an LMG in WW2 either. The army tried to put it in that role, but loads of units stripped the bipods and carry handles to save weight and used them as regular rifles that were maybe a little better for suppression.
Yeah, as it turns out, the BAR kind of *sucked* as an LMG, but was actually pretty solid as a sort of... proto-battle rifle. The way it's used in CoH actually kind of checks out for how it was really used. If it wasn't for the immense weight, it would have actually made for a pretty kickass mainline rifle for the time, but the fact that even the *Garand* was still lighter (and the Garand is not a light gun) kind of limited the BAR's potential.
Yeah I was thinking that too, he misunderstood the historical use of the BAR. Also the semi automatic nature of the m1 Garand gave it a really decisive advantage at close range. So in a wired way this honestly all checks out and makes sense.
We moved from the brain-dead LMG mainline attack move of coh2 to the close range AR move order of rifles and pgrens in coh3. Somehow attack move was too complicated so we needed to dumb it down a little
@@jackobrien47 yeah this is totally different from the mindless Fallspios with nade launcher, Jaeger and Pgren boobs also seen isn’t it 🤡 At least a US player has the point that they don’t have another mainliner infantry choice. Same can’t be said about the brain-dead axis blobs 🥴
@AstonHodge I specifically called out pgren boobs as well. My point was that in coh2 it was attack move lmgs that were the issue. Now it's even simpler. With rifles and pgrens they literally just move order towards any threat and it dies.
@@jackobrien47 yep agree on this. The counter to this is a ‘set up time’ giving a 1-2 second wait to use LMGs. If elite infantry don’t need this it gives them more viability and then blobbing them costs more manpower too. They (Relic) CAN but REFUSE to add a blob debuff which is sad. It would honestly make sense if a blob had an incoming suppression debuff for 4 or more units together maybe an increase in received accuracy too of like 15%.
First and foremost, I think we need negative or "red" cover back in the game. That was pretty huge for preventing blobbing. Increased recieved accuracy and supression on roads and in open fields. I also think the LT shouldn't come out for free. It should be a built unit like it is after it's killed. The ASC buffs have been great. Rifles should have higher upkeep - like similar to Rangers, Paras, and SSF. They can still be cheaper but spamming out 7 should cripple your manpower income. I think that would also help balance manpower cheats. Bumping the fuel cost of advanced logistics could be good too. That would push back the window for getting the upgrade and reduce its impact just by giving it less time to be active. Some other thoughts I have are a bit more wild, but I think MSC should get a unit similar to the LT. Maybe a Humber-type unit in the form of a T17 Staghound. Give it similar abilities to the LT for vehicles. In the war, it had the same gun as the M8, but maybe it could run with just MGs until the Motor Pool is finished after which it can upgrade to unlock that gun with a munitions upgrade. Give it less armor/health than an M8 and more than the US HT (Which is made out of glass btw. That vehicle needs to be more survivable). Just a thought. My third idea which I've been thinking about for months now is to give the WSC an upgrade similar to BARs: a .50 cal upgrade to US MG teams. It can be a universal upgrade with a moderate fuel cost that could take the US MG from the weakest MG in the game to the strongest. Increased damage, supression, a wider arc, and better armor penetration (along with an an active AP rounds ability?). That would really help the viability of WSC. Finally, either reduce the CP cost of SSF call-in or decrease the manpower cost. They are great units once you can get them out, but they are a MASSIVE investment if you want to make them a big part of your army. By the time you have one or two squads out, they are really behind in the XP/vet race and you're 450-900mp sunk. It's too much. Just my thoughts as a Wher main.
Yeah red cover should be back, though it shouldn't increase recieved damage, only accuracy. Also, more weapons should have incremental accuracy (which increases accuracy for more additional targets near what you're shooting at)
@@MrMeist dude you can’t increase the manpower cost on a mainliner infantry unit. Are all the Axis mains that are all circle jerking each other off on this video aware it’s the ONLY mainliner infantry US get, commanders aside! 🤡
Great video and editing. The rifle spam definitely needs looking at. Here is some ideas; reducing the 25% reduction cost to something like 10%-15%. Then if that doesn't help maybe have the ISC upgrades only affect vet 2 and 3 squads. This encourages unit preservation and doesn't just reward building new units. Can always increase the population cap of rifleman as well to reduce their numbers and upkeep.
@@HelpingHans All discounts, MP reductions etc has to be gone all-together, that goes for Armored, Indian and Luftwaffe as well, also the merge should be nerfed to be like CoH 2 - to actually have a downside. The only thing I can think that should stay are med tents reinforces, bunker coastal combo.
Riflemen are just the tip of the iceberg. USF has had extremely janky faction design in both CoH2 and CoH3. Part of it is the lack of elite infantry (except rangers) and the need for BARs. Also the lack of arty on the faction. The weakness of Shermans and pretty much all medium generalist tanks is a big issue. The complete lack of blobwiping units on all factions is a HUGE issue. Even the one unit that should be a blobwiper for sure in this game, the whizbang, is really only good against static units. Infantry squads are so survivable in this game now and vehicles usually just don't pack enough of a punch. I remember the anticipation with every shot in CoH2 when I had a tank shooting at infantry. Will it miss? Will it get several kills? Even wipe the squad? Never really happens in this game. You either have a Brummbar consistently dealing 75% damage to a squad, or some medium tank just tickling the inf. Overall, most upgrades in the game probably need reworks. They are just so difficult to balance. The US upgrades are so specific, meanwhile DAK has like 9 upgrades to choose from. The scaling just goes out of whack because of these things. Excuse my disjointed and random thoughts, but I still think this game has a LONG way to go in terms of balance, which is why I keep uninstalling it every time I come back. CoH2 feels like a drug almost every time I play it. CoH3 can be fun from time to time, but its just missing so much nuance and epicness.
Ain't no way this is like the same problem back then in Coh2 when they made the Osttruppen extremely good to the point that you can get away with just 7 Osttruppen and even beat the Brits in their own game when it comes to their cover combat mechanic.
lets just all go back to basics: the US faction is rooted in experience gained, and flanking.... a lot of that comes with rifles... apart from that the game wants to have mixed builds, and punish a mono build akin to any spam.... i truly think that if rifles were beefed up a bit with higher upkeep they would not be spammed as much (as long as there are other counters).... this leads me to my point: where is the true counter? well... its MG's... and game design..... supression and getting pinned needs to happen almost instantly when an MG opens up (especially in no cover situations)... this requires smoke to properly counter, basically forcing a mort or a light vehicle to flank the MG's -nateums
That was what I was thinking. The reason that soldiers don’t do mass charges is because of the machine gun. Gameplay wise, i wonder if lowering the price or upkeep of MGs and buffing the weaker ones (1919) would make it a more appealing pick for counter. It would at least force the USF player to invest into mortars and smoke to stop the zerg rush.
Indian is not a problem because unlike USF - UKF is NOT an infantry faction (they have waaaaay more VALID armored options) while Wehr goes more infantry/bunker/team weapons focused (MP hungry) army composition when picking Luftwaffe. UKF simply never plays so MP heavy units to pick MP reduction trait. This is why MP reduction should be just discarded altogether. Also, I think that TTK play key role - it cost NOTHING to close in yolo style for USF, if TTK becomes shorter - rifles WILL need other units to close in while also remaining decent on medium and long - this means their versatility is not damaged but to be effective they need set up from other units. Kinda reverse from DAK where 1 unit (flak/guasta/Tiger etc set ups everything for the rest of the units) Giving viable alternative is great to fix over reliance on rifles. Alternative is not just some other mainline but also Thompsons for Paras (right now if map/lane is CQB - you never go airborne, also both vets and abilities beg for Thompsons).
As someone who plays COH3 very very little (only played a few multiplayer games and a little of Campaign), but played a lot of COH 1, I remember when COH 1 first came out, people had the same complaints about rifleman squads. Even when after lots of patches, it became somewhat balanced, it just made rifleman spam balanced but it was still the go to strat for Americans. I don't know why Relic wants to design the game like this.
@@jimhall1728 it’s simple. Don’t give US faction a single unit. Give the specialised units or choices. Dak Pgrens are in the same place. They scale better than Riflemen and get snares. I think if all snares were moved off mainline infantry and onto dedicated AT, you can’t blob them as effectively.
@@AstonHodge oh, poor American main, oh no, you have only ONE main line infantry just as OTHER 2/3 FACTIONS WOW. An yeah pz are scalled better, but they costs 300 with higher reinforsment cost and you have to upgrafe them for veterans and give them MG for ONE HUNDRED ammo. So yeah, keep talking the shit.
And no one mentions the effect on wher composition, it just make Pgrens mandatory to a remedy to charging bar rifles. When I use jagers I just get trampled by bars.
Add back rear echelons and make them viable for say the first 5 minutes of the game. Allow them to do sandbags and barbed wire but not much else? Make rangers a call in unit. Or upgradeable from rear echelons. Might encourage a bit more wsc play? Then you might get straight to your doctrine mainline.
I think implementing a game mechanic if a soldier is running towards another one, received accuracy increases some percent might help. This will encourage positioning and flanking and punish mindless running blobs. There was a mechanic like this in Last of us 2. If you run towards the enemy they shoot you easily. But if you strafe, not so much.
Well there is something to discourage blobs, incremental accuracy: When a burst weapon is shooting at someone, if it has X times incremental accuracy multiplier, for every additional target in a circle next to it, it gets its accuracy multiplied by that value. So, if I'm shooting at a 4 man squad and have 1,05 incremental accuracy, that makes 3 extra models in additon to the one I'm shooting at, for a total of a 1,158 accuracy multiplier. If I'm shooting at a blob, and there's like 10 extra models next to what I'm shooting at, that makes a 1,629 multiplier. 63% more accuracy! If squad automatic weapons had just a little bit of incremental accuracy (which I don't hthink most of them do), I think it could help a decent bit against blobs.
Blobbing needs to be severely punished. End of story. I dont know if you know this yet but there was a hint from the devs on reddit that something will be done about the blobbing problem in the next update.
im aware, their post came out AFTER my video, just so you know ;) (I got you fam) Just to be clear, in this video im really talking about spamming as opposed to blobbing.
To be fair, rifle spam was how the US infantry fought in World War 2. Turns out it doesn't really matter if you have no belt fed machine gun in the squad and an SMG designed for the interwar if you're the only people with 13 semiautomatic rifles in each squad.
That is not exactly correct - the Soviets had significant amounts of SVT in different modifications and the Germans introduced G43s in smaller amounts. However, the US were indeed the only one to have a semi as the main issue for all troopsm Also M1 Carabines are dope and unique
@@alcedob.5850 the soviets only had about 2 million SVTs, and the Germans only had 400k G43s, while the US had over 10 million M1 garands/carbines, I would call what OP said to be pretty correct
The devs are already community members, CoH1 didn't need community members to find the sweetspot, maybe the secret is not having community members being design leads xD That's how we ended up with over the top busted rangers, most un-nerving unit of all when it dropped - and still are cause of stupid 6 weapon slots x)
"A handful of people... like the infantry combat." 12:30. I like to think it's much more than a handful, which is why I think there's a huge market for a COH Pacific version that takes place in 1944/1945 in areas like the Shwebo Plain of Burma, the Central Luzon Plain, the open areas around Ormoc and between Tacloban and Dulag on Leyte, the hills of central Okinawa, and some of the less vegetated islands like Peleliu and Iwo Jima. Still plenty of opportunity for some vehicle and tank action. Osprey Publishing has a lot of titles that describe tank action in the Pacific and CBI.
An unaddressed problem is the lack of easy to use names for “Elite” infantry units in the U.S. Army and the perception that all U.S. infantry were the same while the Germans, Italians, British and Soviets had a bunch of special “Elite” units with cool names. This leaves the U.S. faction being reduced to Riflemen, Rangers and Paratroopers in most games while the Germans get a half dozen types of “Something-Grenadier”. This is semi-historically correct, but really overblown. The presence of elite units in the game is the problem in my opinion. If you put a hard cap of 2 squads of “Elite” infantry at a time then all factions would be forced to stick to their mainline infantry more and the problem of only seeing Riflemen would be partially mitigated.
@@Rather.Splended.Cromwell Contrary to popular belief, the Red Army started 1941 at parity with the Axis and then suffered a severe manpower shortage due to Operation Barbarossa which left them outnumbered 3:2 (millions). It wouldn't be until early-mid 1942 after expediting training times that the Red Army would reach a 4:3 against the Axis; eventually settling on 6:3 throughout 1943-1944.
the north africa-italian theatre is the perfect setting to have the basic rifle squad equiped with springfield boltactions. while on paper the M1 replaced the M1903 in 1936 as the standard infantry rifle entire divisions in important frontline locations remained as late as 1944 in the italian theatre amongst american troops, and all the way to 1945 amongst american armed units like various free french forces in italy. and its really not much more of an abstraction than not giveing the units BARs by default.
well it makes sense and nothing can happen because rifle squads will be main units to do capping and fighting and arty will counter infrantry and other support elements and even tanks when they go to repair or just got hit mines then there are slow so arty can deal damage or finnished it off best we can do for coh game is just have diversity and counter play so it can be different while same time would be same in roles but nothing can be done sense it is design core of gameplay wise also about arty counters can be other arty or light cheap vehicle who can go back lines and destroyed said arty or just be scout unit for calling in offmaps vs stactic arty main thing can be done really so yeah
In CoH2 blobbing and infantry spam only works in a few situations where your opponents can't counter it. Long range artillery and mortars are more annoying but good players will move when they hear the guns fire. In CoH3.... There's pretty much no anti blob unit. Most anti blob tools like explosives have a limit to how many models it can damage at once (while in CoH2 it only existed in the Ostwind), so most anti infantry vehicles are way weaker.
In World War 2, I'm pretty sure most german "rifle squads" relied upon their MGs to gain fire superiority. Regardless of the whole Garand vs Kar98 thing, I think the success of any side in a particular engagement more came down to their tactics and support rather than what rifles they wielded.
I really think the biggest issue is manpower cheats combined with how easy it is to reach a critical mass with some units where you can oneshot models, you see top players blobbing with Luftwaffe battlegroup and even Indian Artillery too, but since the ISC's MP cheat is behind fuel rather than Battlegroup XP the ISC ends up getting their first usually, especially in team games, meaning you are punished less and earlier for blobbing than other factions. The video by WilllTHENOOBz called "The Blobing Problem in 1.7" goes into detail why blobbing is strong and often even optimal at high level of play, its just mathematically strong if you can easily reach the critical mass to oneshot models and Riflemen are currently optimal due to their cost and ease of access to MP cheats via ISC. if they were hit, DAK Pgrens or Bren Tommies, would probably become the optimal blob, more things than just MP Cheats need to change. Though, even with that said, the 25% Reinforce cost reductions are probably bad to balance the game around since it makes units and tactics that punish blobs much less effective at bleeding. If they want infantry to be better and more efficient in the late game, other upgrades for durability, mobility and utility are probably healthier, in addition to buffing things that are used to punish blobbing which aren't locked behind battlegroups. It doesn't help that its hard to get MGs in cover currently, so a blob that can oneshot team weapon models can just facecheck MGs and out DPS them, especially slower suppressing MGs.
IMO MP reduction is only a small part of why rifles are so dominant in COH. The true problem, I believe is 3-fold: 1. Rifles are flexible 2. Rifles are accessible/safe 3. Rifles are forgiving These problems are why it's a bigger problem with USF across 3 games and not a huge problem when the MP buff is given to other factions. We'll start with the flexibility. Rifles eventually have a tool to counter every threat in the game. They can Sprint/Frag -> MGs, snare aggressive vehicles, on top of being a very competent mid-close range infantry unit. A very skilled player can take advantage of this flexibility to exploit weaknesses in the enemy line through flanks and aggressive use of abilities and losing one or two squads to retreat or wipe doesn't completely remove your ability to counter specific threats. Contrast this with specialized DAK units where losing a specialist would leave a very large gap in your frontline composition. Secondly rifles, for their utility, are an incredibly accessible unit. Every doctrine/battlegroup has access to almost all the upgrades making it a go to choice regardless of what doctrine or army composition the enemy chooses. This makes rifles a safe option until you can probe out what the enemy might be doing since, with their flexibility they can at least stall even hard-counters. You can very safely play rifle heavy and pick your doctrine/battlegroup once the other player has revealed their hand. Finally the biggest problem is that rifles are incredibly forgiving to use. In most failed attack and defense scenarios, it is easy hit retreat on the squads and have them likely make it back to base without a squad wipe. Unlike weapon teams, you can quickly correct bad positioning or overextension. Ex. Flanked/overextended rifles can easily relocate/retreat, an overextended MG is just dead. Rifle players are not punished nearly to the same extent that a weapon team based player would be if they got encircled or over extended a push. Not to mention potentially having those weapon teams captured by the aforementioned rifles. Fundamentally this makes a rifle centric army something that is much easier to execute than it is to counter. Couple that with forgiving game economics and you have a very powerful strategy. I believe there are certain aspects of the game (like unit speed) that make the above issues worse but this sums up what I think make it so frustrating to play against.
the game is supposed to be easy for the simple people... it's mass product like Battlefield 2042 every Hannes can hit with automatic fire... There are players who are just overwhelmed with 6 different units and just blob with their rifles... that's Relic style. you should also be able to lose a lot and the game is not over yet... you can make a lot more mistakes than in the old titles...
I noticed pre AI blob nerf I would spam riflemen and atg and on top of that the AI blob every 2 minutes. I would lose like 200 models in a game but still end up winning. It
I think MP cheats should go away. There's other ways to make an infantry phase without introducing an all game benefit. Stuff like medic bunkers creating zombie squads made more sense but those were bad too.
Sending waves of US Riflemen seems quite realistic to how the US fought WW2 in Europe if you look at their casualties rate, thanks to their induvial replacement system they could just keep sending the men over and replace them so the Unit as a whole did not have to be moved from the front.
CoH3 is the most simplistic of CoH games in the series. The balance also feels completely off with the British feeling like they have the earliest availability to shut down the opposing team or just to do Stuart spam and dominate the mid game then to rush the enemy base with 3-4 stuarts knocking them out or knocking out all of their resource capabilities.
when you mentioned the 8:42 - 8:59 there is actualy a mechanic in game that was in CoH2 and in CoH3 called "point blank" meaning any unit that is in range from 0-10 units negates all cover basicly meaning if u are sitting on top of an enemy squad regardless of them being in green cover, its not going to count for that squad that is directly on top of them, but it will show in game because your unit is in fact in cover, but it will benefit from cover only against those units who are not in point blank range, thats why in the early game rushing enemies in cover pays out in certain scenarios
As a Brit Main, im finding it extremely frustrating to have American Allies, just because they lack any capacity to hold ground. I dont really blame them, but when the 30.cal is a pile of turd, and axis have heaps of anti team weapon options (including walking at machine guns laughing as was mentioned) I feel like i cant rely on a secure flank as a brit player. Right now as well axis infantry feels wildly oppressive, with the grenadier switch out being horrid to deal with, Axis elites show up so early in comparison to their counters (stoss having their own call in for instance) and even trying to trade favourably as brits doesnt actually feel like its achieving anything. The Yanks also dont have an effective mid game to bring out it seems, chaffees got nerfed into oblivion, there is no bigger artillery than a mortar (non doc) and Nebel spamn is just hugely oppressive right now (needs to have its range cut down massively imo to make it somewhat risky to bring 2/3 in). That coupled with allies lacking a good answer to tigers right now (the hellcat is paper and the 17pdr is a meme) means the axis feel extremely frustrating at the moment. Finally, axis recon is so good right now as to make any attempt at a surprise move useless without camo (Nuke the Kets recon PLEASE, you dont need it AND mortar flare) so being tricksy with light vehicles is also slightly null. I am growing ever more resigned that its going to descend as number 2 did into company of artillery, which made 2 so ruddy boring at the end of its lifecycle, so id like to see alternatives to, encourage more arty.
I wonder if some of this is what the new Heavy Tank doctrines are going to deal with? Trouble there is, if you end up with a bunch of high end tanks that blap entire squads in a single shot, they better put a good counter for that vehicle!
>Not enough punishment for just running your riflemen at the enemy, particularly early game Did they remove suppression? I skipped COH2 and was going to get this but the botched release stopped me.
With enough spacing you can only suppress one squad with the MG, ergo you just flank it cuz MGs are more micro intensive than just rushing so in the end the rifles still win
@@Edge_Boye That isn't just "running your riflemen at the enemy" though. You think that issuing flanking commands to 4-5 units (or more as we see in this video) is less micro intensive than using a single, stationary unit (MG) and manually clicking on approaching rifles, one at a time, allowing enough time to suppress them? That is if a single unit should even be able to deal with 4-5 units flanking it.. which I think the answer is probably no? I know suppression wasn't removed but it doesn't appear to work on blobs very well at all. I really wanted to get this COH, but I keep checking back and while it has improved it is still a long way off something that looks enjoyable to play. Meanwhile blizzard of all people are polishing wc3 again.
COH2 had the OKW as the go-to faction for braindead infantry spamming to instantly win against most players the devs then decided to switch teams and make USF the braindead rush faction for COH3 instead of removing braindead rush factions
I was expecting just another CoH3-bashing vid longing for the "good old days" of the previous games. This was actually measured and well-delivered criticism. I thought the buff to lethality against squads out of cover went some way to lessening the effectiveness of blobs and silly infantry gameplay, so maybe more of that could help? Thankfully, at my lowly level nobody plays meta, so I see more varied strats. Tbh, I find rangers more frustrating to deal with than riflemen in my brass/bronze games.
you are wasting your breath on this dumpster fire... The problem is way bigger than this, starting from when you boot the game and get blasted by that horrible souless UI, to the low quality of everything, especially considering it is a 60-70 dollar game.
Unrelated but I love to play the game Call to Arms: Gates of Hell with AI. The Liberation DLC adds the Americans as a faction. Let me tell you, I can barely play against them because for some goddamn reason, and unlike the Germans, Soviets, and Finns, the American AI loves to spam self propelled artillery. They can take out your awesome and expensive Tiger or IS from almost across the map and you won't even know what hit you unless they miss and you see the explosion nearby. Not to mention they make mincemeat of your infantry with their Garands. Though anything less than the Pershing is scrap metal when faced with a large German or Soviet gun.
other great video and i agree on most points and also main problem i find about manpower cheats they just huge reduction if it would be little like 10 % or so would be better balance and still give tiny bit room to do something per say and same with italian coastal mine reduction same problem to be reduction to be consider balance and fun for other player who playing it against and i finding it to be number 1 problem as number 2 is just buff other things for usf like mg buff to suppress infrantry , and tiny buff for airborne and sff in dps wise ( and long range ) to give better reason to build ( while is that there aren't bad units just they are overshadow by riflemen as good unit )
Not a huge coh person but I feel a lot of your "this is irl doctrine" stuff doenst work vecause coh is arcady, as you said. It seems counterintuitive to mention the doctrinal uses when it cant really be relevant - combat in coh is just not that
rifleman was THE most important unit in USF in coh1. The rifleman was always superior to volksgrenadier and grenadier the closer it got to them. Even panzer grenadiers would always try to be max firing range away from riflemen. And yes, the move was to just click your rifleman ontop of the enemy's volks/pzgrens if you could. USF would always take more losses than Wehr in CoH1 and still win. IF USF had less casualties than wehr it means that they roflstomped them. anything is better than sniper dominance in my books
Only proper way to negate blobs, You add aura that works like zeal from COH 1 but negative effect, calculating a proximity of standart inf can be open up negative debuff for opponent inf esp mgs to shoot more accurate because of the more inf on land to shoot idea. I thing 2 rifleman on 8 range for example. Aura effects canbe calibrated to classes but I thing generally one calibration can makes to whole the difference. Plus ditching manpower cheats obviously.
There is something i dont understand, if the rifles are the meta, does it means that if they buff alternatives it will just break the game even more? Its the only thing they keep saying, without pointing that maybe riflemen need a nerf so other things become more relevant, because maybe its not that the other things are bad and its just that riflemen are too good.
USF have always been pidgeonholed into being an early game, constant pressure faction, and rifles+ISC is the only option that supports that forced playstyle. Basically, it's a design issue, where nerfing rifles without major buffs elsewhere just ends up crippling the faction.
I think they tried to run with the supply yard idea from coh1. But, it's definitely over done. Captain should probably be unlocked rather than free and the 25% MP reduction could be reduced to say 15% with a cost decrease.
The problem is exaggerated by every other american base unit is so bad, engineers can't charge to close range after dps increase, scout is a joke providing less vision than pioneers, jeep is basically waste of 200mp after the 1.5 penetration buff to small arms, 30 cal hmg perform worse than a maxim and you can't even cooperate with another utility squad to maintain suppression, bazooka squad has all the gimmick but snare removed, sprint removed and 2 zook 120 dmg is a joke compare to shreck 160dmg
I see your Rifleman meme and raise you a Youre right and you should say it. In all seriousness though, the spam in CoH3 is really killing the game for me. I love CoH. Between 2 and 3 Im coming up on 4000hrs. But the spam in CoH3, no matter if youre playing Axis or Allies is both boring and aggravating.
Pop Cap is the issue imo, being non-dynamic unlike CoH1 is hurting diversity build. That's probably the number 1 issue right there, pop cap needing logistic upgrades to reach 100. CoH1 & DoW1 knew that, they were built with that resource in mind.
Remove ALL manpower cheats, Captain spawns from all upgrade centres and bring back Vehicle Crush. Anything else would require a total faction redesign, as everything EXCEPT Riflemen was either weak or nerfed to hell
1/ BAR upgrade from 40f to 15f but no more free 1st bar. Bar cost 75 ammo each. 2/ ISC logistic need big nerf on mp cheat. 3/ rifleman pop cap must higher like CoH1
I didn't play COH that much (only training from COH1) so im not well informed about balance of these games. BUT the dominance of riflemen isn't something unseen before if you know sudden strike which helped pioneer the road for games like COH it had a rifle problem well not American rifles but all rifle users were OP against other infantry. Now when it comes to how would you balance the garand well I think making its damage half that of bolt rifles is maybe good idea basically Americans would fire twice as fast granting equal damage to other bolt rifle users at least that's how I balanced American riflemen when I modded Sudden strike 2. Now riflemen being a core part of the US faction in every RTS that is just something you have to do.
Riflemen need to go back down to 90hp per model and get better mid and especially short range accuracy. This way you have a reason to get Sprint instead of pour it on them. Speaking of PIOT, it needs its suppression doubled so it cant actually suppress a squad in its duration. This enables better bleed and reduces the toxic HP pool that rifles have. 100 HP on a 6 man squad is too much HP per infantry squad. Grens need to go up to 90hp aswell and get a LMG upgrade. if you want a BOB style riflemen then they need a stationary suppression passive. it forces them to not move to benefit from it. that would be super toxic for the enemy to deal with though. so i am in no way supporting that. though the HMG buff for the allies is something that badly needs to happen. Suppression modifier should be set from 1.45 to 2 (sense it has a way lower ROF than MG42 and thus has less suppression. AOE suppression needs to go up aswell to match the MG42. the alternate is MG42 AOE suppression getting lowered to match other MGs, but then that further reinforces blob gameplay which is horrible. so its not really an option.
I liked the parachute AT gun behind my friends King Tiger in CoH1 better. Pretty sure I gave him PTSD. Every time he got hyped becouse he made a successful push Bamm, Airborn and he lost.
i miss coh2 riflemen (didnt miss their scaling against a-move LMGs). I loved the infantry dynamics of coh2 with the smaller squad sizes; conscripts required good positional play to win fights while riflemen could take more liberties at the cost of bleeding if you messed up. volks were obviously the worst, but i liked them in the early game because they were the mids of mid--the most mainline of mainlines. Every model held so much more value, whereas this dumb meta has got me forgoing riflemen for more interesting alternatives, yet there is still no viable coastal/conscript/penal type unit for usf.
Bro I just wanted continued console support this was one of the best RTS’s on Xbox and I would’ve loved to buy dlc to keep playing the game but sadly it is not to be :(
I feel the mod for Coh2 spearhead calls to cover being the god send if you run into the open with nothing engaging Lmgs and Hmgs they melt your troops leading to needing to think about how to close in without getting pinned down and deleted You should have to risk to win but you never be like how it is now Also the number of guys on the troops are both too low and to many The red army had a good unit conscripts did one job fight And if you got one an AT weapon then you had a better At unit then a At gun + numbers you could always find a way to win vs conscripts blobs Mgs tanks built for cc or a well placed mine field Can with smarts and being sneaky remove blobs Bigger maps with less people means more thinking and it does get hard to see the full battlefield but it’s still helpful to show how to do good recon and planning Coh3 didn’t fill me with confidence from the movement and the gameplay it only showed me incompetence and moving steps backwards not forward
I wish rifles were the only problem of the game. Whole sort of more important things are absolutely messed up. Like the panther being made out of paper and other tanks in general besides several allied tanks. For some reason m4a1 Sherman has decent armor penetration now and is a capable tank against panzer 4 which is useless from my point of view in general. I guess coh 3 just needed axis and buffed allies.
the best thing about this video is the incredible effort and editing you put into it. this was a labor of love. thank you for including me in the process.
Thank you brother, it was great having you on.
I've run up a ridiculous amount of hours in CoH and CoH2.
I genuinely have no idea why I'd buy CoH3. It's an RTS and it won't run on my PC acceptably. A PC that will still run Warthunder at 60FPS at reasonable quality and high resolution.
Thanks for the video - great quality and all - but I feel like your audience is somewhat limited by the fact as a fan of Relic since 1996 - if I'm not buying CoH3 - I'm not sure who they felt their target market was?
To be fair, the BAR wasn't really used as an LMG in WW2 either. The army tried to put it in that role, but loads of units stripped the bipods and carry handles to save weight and used them as regular rifles that were maybe a little better for suppression.
Yeah, as it turns out, the BAR kind of *sucked* as an LMG, but was actually pretty solid as a sort of... proto-battle rifle. The way it's used in CoH actually kind of checks out for how it was really used. If it wasn't for the immense weight, it would have actually made for a pretty kickass mainline rifle for the time, but the fact that even the *Garand* was still lighter (and the Garand is not a light gun) kind of limited the BAR's potential.
Yeah I was thinking that too, he misunderstood the historical use of the BAR. Also the semi automatic nature of the m1 Garand gave it a really decisive advantage at close range. So in a wired way this honestly all checks out and makes sense.
@@studentaviator3756 real life fact is not balanced huh
We moved from the brain-dead LMG mainline attack move of coh2 to the close range AR move order of rifles and pgrens in coh3. Somehow attack move was too complicated so we needed to dumb it down a little
@@jackobrien47 yeah this is totally different from the mindless Fallspios with nade launcher, Jaeger and Pgren boobs also seen isn’t it 🤡 At least a US player has the point that they don’t have another mainliner infantry choice. Same can’t be said about the brain-dead axis blobs 🥴
@AstonHodge I specifically called out pgren boobs as well. My point was that in coh2 it was attack move lmgs that were the issue. Now it's even simpler. With rifles and pgrens they literally just move order towards any threat and it dies.
@@jackobrien47 yep agree on this. The counter to this is a ‘set up time’ giving a 1-2 second wait to use LMGs. If elite infantry don’t need this it gives them more viability and then blobbing them costs more manpower too. They (Relic) CAN but REFUSE to add a blob debuff which is sad. It would honestly make sense if a blob had an incoming suppression debuff for 4 or more units together maybe an increase in received accuracy too of like 15%.
@@jackobrien47 coh 2 lmg blobs get deleted by good micro, nades and any light/med tank.
@@DustyPazner That was my thought as well, the problem of COH2 was not as significant as this is in COH3.
25% reduction in cost is better than people think too, it's like a 33% increase in resources
(Thinks of guardsmen in dawn of war 2)
Another splendid video from a rather splendid cromwell
"...has arrived!"
*riflemenriflemenriflemenriflemenriflemenriflemenriflemenriflemenriflemen*
This is what peak performance looks like.
You may not like it, but this is what peak performance. War winning performance
First and foremost, I think we need negative or "red" cover back in the game. That was pretty huge for preventing blobbing. Increased recieved accuracy and supression on roads and in open fields. I also think the LT shouldn't come out for free. It should be a built unit like it is after it's killed. The ASC buffs have been great. Rifles should have higher upkeep - like similar to Rangers, Paras, and SSF. They can still be cheaper but spamming out 7 should cripple your manpower income. I think that would also help balance manpower cheats. Bumping the fuel cost of advanced logistics could be good too. That would push back the window for getting the upgrade and reduce its impact just by giving it less time to be active.
Some other thoughts I have are a bit more wild, but I think MSC should get a unit similar to the LT. Maybe a Humber-type unit in the form of a T17 Staghound. Give it similar abilities to the LT for vehicles. In the war, it had the same gun as the M8, but maybe it could run with just MGs until the Motor Pool is finished after which it can upgrade to unlock that gun with a munitions upgrade. Give it less armor/health than an M8 and more than the US HT (Which is made out of glass btw. That vehicle needs to be more survivable). Just a thought.
My third idea which I've been thinking about for months now is to give the WSC an upgrade similar to BARs: a .50 cal upgrade to US MG teams. It can be a universal upgrade with a moderate fuel cost that could take the US MG from the weakest MG in the game to the strongest. Increased damage, supression, a wider arc, and better armor penetration (along with an an active AP rounds ability?). That would really help the viability of WSC.
Finally, either reduce the CP cost of SSF call-in or decrease the manpower cost. They are great units once you can get them out, but they are a MASSIVE investment if you want to make them a big part of your army. By the time you have one or two squads out, they are really behind in the XP/vet race and you're 450-900mp sunk. It's too much.
Just my thoughts as a Wher main.
Yeah red cover should be back, though it shouldn't increase recieved damage, only accuracy. Also, more weapons should have incremental accuracy (which increases accuracy for more additional targets near what you're shooting at)
@@MrMeist dude you can’t increase the manpower cost on a mainliner infantry unit. Are all the Axis mains that are all circle jerking each other off on this video aware it’s the ONLY mainliner infantry US get, commanders aside! 🤡
But it was the top players in coh2 that decided red cover is bad as it punishes attacking units, encouraging players to only sit and defend
Yeah, I miss the heavy MGs from CoH2.
@@SapereAude1490 shame about the balance. The Maxim was utter trash. Again some more axis bias for no reason 👍
Great video and editing. The rifle spam definitely needs looking at. Here is some ideas; reducing the 25% reduction cost to something like 10%-15%. Then if that doesn't help maybe have the ISC upgrades only affect vet 2 and 3 squads. This encourages unit preservation and doesn't just reward building new units. Can always increase the population cap of rifleman as well to reduce their numbers and upkeep.
@@HelpingHans All discounts, MP reductions etc has to be gone all-together, that goes for Armored, Indian and Luftwaffe as well, also the merge should be nerfed to be like CoH 2 - to actually have a downside. The only thing I can think that should stay are med tents reinforces, bunker coastal combo.
Riflemen are just the tip of the iceberg. USF has had extremely janky faction design in both CoH2 and CoH3. Part of it is the lack of elite infantry (except rangers) and the need for BARs. Also the lack of arty on the faction. The weakness of Shermans and pretty much all medium generalist tanks is a big issue. The complete lack of blobwiping units on all factions is a HUGE issue. Even the one unit that should be a blobwiper for sure in this game, the whizbang, is really only good against static units. Infantry squads are so survivable in this game now and vehicles usually just don't pack enough of a punch. I remember the anticipation with every shot in CoH2 when I had a tank shooting at infantry. Will it miss? Will it get several kills? Even wipe the squad? Never really happens in this game. You either have a Brummbar consistently dealing 75% damage to a squad, or some medium tank just tickling the inf. Overall, most upgrades in the game probably need reworks. They are just so difficult to balance. The US upgrades are so specific, meanwhile DAK has like 9 upgrades to choose from. The scaling just goes out of whack because of these things.
Excuse my disjointed and random thoughts, but I still think this game has a LONG way to go in terms of balance, which is why I keep uninstalling it every time I come back. CoH2 feels like a drug almost every time I play it. CoH3 can be fun from time to time, but its just missing so much nuance and epicness.
Whizbang needs a bigger dispersion, is too accurate and the range is too short,
Sometimes when I uses whizbang only get like 4 o 5 kills.
>lack of arty
Uhm, calliope and priest? Literally some of the best arty in the game
@@TonyBustaroni wrong game pal, Calliope/Priest are CoH2 units, USF in CoH3 only has the mortar as non-doctrinal/battlegroup artillery.
Wow can’t believe I haven’t discovered this channel until now. You deserve few million subscribers.
wow! thats very kind of you man. Thanks :)
Ain't no way this is like the same problem back then in Coh2 when they made the Osttruppen extremely good to the point that you can get away with just 7 Osttruppen and even beat the Brits in their own game when it comes to their cover combat mechanic.
Man called the RayGun the "alien blaster" 💀💀💀
you got me
lets just all go back to basics: the US faction is rooted in experience gained, and flanking.... a lot of that comes with rifles... apart from that the game wants to have mixed builds, and punish a mono build akin to any spam.... i truly think that if rifles were beefed up a bit with higher upkeep they would not be spammed as much (as long as there are other counters)....
this leads me to my point: where is the true counter? well... its MG's... and game design..... supression and getting pinned needs to happen almost instantly when an MG opens up (especially in no cover situations)... this requires smoke to properly counter, basically forcing a mort or a light vehicle to flank the MG's
-nateums
That was what I was thinking. The reason that soldiers don’t do mass charges is because of the machine gun. Gameplay wise, i wonder if lowering the price or upkeep of MGs and buffing the weaker ones (1919) would make it a more appealing pick for counter. It would at least force the USF player to invest into mortars and smoke to stop the zerg rush.
Indian is not a problem because unlike USF - UKF is NOT an infantry faction (they have waaaaay more VALID armored options) while Wehr goes more infantry/bunker/team weapons focused (MP hungry) army composition when picking Luftwaffe. UKF simply never plays so MP heavy units to pick MP reduction trait. This is why MP reduction should be just discarded altogether.
Also, I think that TTK play key role - it cost NOTHING to close in yolo style for USF, if TTK becomes shorter - rifles WILL need other units to close in while also remaining decent on medium and long - this means their versatility is not damaged but to be effective they need set up from other units. Kinda reverse from DAK where 1 unit (flak/guasta/Tiger etc set ups everything for the rest of the units)
Giving viable alternative is great to fix over reliance on rifles. Alternative is not just some other mainline but also Thompsons for Paras (right now if map/lane is CQB - you never go airborne, also both vets and abilities beg for Thompsons).
Historically accurate american strategy from civil war to vietnam.
A free half track with the mechanised center a free anti air half track with the air centre will fix the unbalance
good to have you back brother. Hope you are well
As someone who plays COH3 very very little (only played a few multiplayer games and a little of Campaign), but played a lot of COH 1, I remember when COH 1 first came out, people had the same complaints about rifleman squads. Even when after lots of patches, it became somewhat balanced, it just made rifleman spam balanced but it was still the go to strat for Americans. I don't know why Relic wants to design the game like this.
Because it gives character to the factions and plays into their themes
👇petition for admission of the author to the coh3 balance department
Author needs some cope-ium! What else do US buy? Scout squad or engineer late game? Dude there’s like 3 units to pick from. Get a grip!
@@AstonHodgemaybe he's suggesting we talk about that maybe he wants us to debate, figure out the problem for ourselves
@@jimhall1728 it’s simple. Don’t give US faction a single unit. Give the specialised units or choices. Dak Pgrens are in the same place. They scale better than Riflemen and get snares. I think if all snares were moved off mainline infantry and onto dedicated AT, you can’t blob them as effectively.
@@AstonHodge oh, poor American main, oh no, you have only ONE main line infantry just as OTHER 2/3 FACTIONS WOW. An yeah pz are scalled better, but they costs 300 with higher reinforsment cost and you have to upgrafe them for veterans and give them MG for ONE HUNDRED ammo. So yeah, keep talking the shit.
Lol, balance?! In an EA game!@ BAHAHAHA!@$%#@! 😂😂😂
And no one mentions the effect on wher composition, it just make Pgrens mandatory to a remedy to charging bar rifles. When I use jagers I just get trampled by bars.
Add back rear echelons and make them viable for say the first 5 minutes of the game. Allow them to do sandbags and barbed wire but not much else?
Make rangers a call in unit. Or upgradeable from rear echelons.
Might encourage a bit more wsc play? Then you might get straight to your doctrine mainline.
I think implementing a game mechanic if a soldier is running towards another one, received accuracy increases some percent might help. This will encourage positioning and flanking and punish mindless running blobs. There was a mechanic like this in Last of us 2. If you run towards the enemy they shoot you easily. But if you strafe, not so much.
Well there is something to discourage blobs, incremental accuracy: When a burst weapon is shooting at someone, if it has X times incremental accuracy multiplier, for every additional target in a circle next to it, it gets its accuracy multiplied by that value. So, if I'm shooting at a 4 man squad and have 1,05 incremental accuracy, that makes 3 extra models in additon to the one I'm shooting at, for a total of a 1,158 accuracy multiplier. If I'm shooting at a blob, and there's like 10 extra models next to what I'm shooting at, that makes a 1,629 multiplier. 63% more accuracy! If squad automatic weapons had just a little bit of incremental accuracy (which I don't hthink most of them do), I think it could help a decent bit against blobs.
Blobbing needs to be severely punished. End of story. I dont know if you know this yet but there was a hint from the devs on reddit that something will be done about the blobbing problem in the next update.
im aware, their post came out AFTER my video, just so you know ;) (I got you fam) Just to be clear, in this video im really talking about spamming as opposed to blobbing.
Yeaa buddy!! Good video big mines baby, big riflemans baby !! ;-)
thank you for the big comment BABEE!!!!
@@Rather.Splended.Cromwell Always a pleasure, never a chore
@@KoffietanksGamingHeroes het thats my line! :p
@@Rather.Splended.Cromwell Thanks I learned from the best! :)
coh1 cinematics r the most aesthetic thing ever
Pretty solid points. Just uninstalled after a few matches of rifle spam.....(completed the campaigns tho)
To be fair, rifle spam was how the US infantry fought in World War 2. Turns out it doesn't really matter if you have no belt fed machine gun in the squad and an SMG designed for the interwar if you're the only people with 13 semiautomatic rifles in each squad.
Because you’re the only army fielding semiautomatic rifles in the war.
That is not exactly correct - the Soviets had significant amounts of SVT in different modifications and the Germans introduced G43s in smaller amounts. However, the US were indeed the only one to have a semi as the main issue for all troopsm Also M1 Carabines are dope and unique
@@alcedob.5850 the soviets only had about 2 million SVTs, and the Germans only had 400k G43s, while the US had over 10 million M1 garands/carbines, I would call what OP said to be pretty correct
the US had belt fed machine guns, the m1917 and m1919 they spammed semi auto rifles ON TOP of also having machine guns.
The US spammed artillery, airpower, and tanks. The rifles were incidental.
Would like to see Relic let certain community members help with balancing and coming up with new battlegroups. They clearly are struggling.
The devs are already community members, CoH1 didn't need community members to find the sweetspot, maybe the secret is not having community members being design leads xD
That's how we ended up with over the top busted rangers, most un-nerving unit of all when it dropped - and still are cause of stupid 6 weapon slots x)
Maybe, but from my personal experience seeing community members help with balance tend to fuck things up even more.
top players always play meta, thats why theyre top
"A handful of people... like the infantry combat." 12:30. I like to think it's much more than a handful, which is why I think there's a huge market for a COH Pacific version that takes place in 1944/1945 in areas like the Shwebo Plain of Burma, the Central Luzon Plain, the open areas around Ormoc and between Tacloban and Dulag on Leyte, the hills of central Okinawa, and some of the less vegetated islands like Peleliu and Iwo Jima. Still plenty of opportunity for some vehicle and tank action. Osprey Publishing has a lot of titles that describe tank action in the Pacific and CBI.
An unaddressed problem is the lack of easy to use names for “Elite” infantry units in the U.S. Army and the perception that all U.S. infantry were the same while the Germans, Italians, British and Soviets had a bunch of special “Elite” units with cool names. This leaves the U.S. faction being reduced to Riflemen, Rangers and Paratroopers in most games while the Germans get a half dozen types of “Something-Grenadier”. This is semi-historically correct, but really overblown. The presence of elite units in the game is the problem in my opinion. If you put a hard cap of 2 squads of “Elite” infantry at a time then all factions would be forced to stick to their mainline infantry more and the problem of only seeing Riflemen would be partially mitigated.
And now think of 10 riflemen squads with Boys ATRs as a britain...
those were the dark days
"Now you have to add [all the upgrades], and you become the Red Army"
Except they had manpower problems and CoH3 USF doesn't.
at its peak the Red army had over 34 million Soldiers.... im just going to let that sink in.
@@Rather.Splended.Cromwelli think he was referring to the SU faction in CoH 2 rather than the real life soviets
@@The_Faceless_No_Name_Stranger for sure, SU definitely cared about manpower especially with penal starts
@@Rather.Splended.Cromwell Contrary to popular belief, the Red Army started 1941 at parity with the Axis and then suffered a severe manpower shortage due to Operation Barbarossa which left them outnumbered 3:2 (millions). It wouldn't be until early-mid 1942 after expediting training times that the Red Army would reach a 4:3 against the Axis; eventually settling on 6:3 throughout 1943-1944.
This sounds exactly like the Panzer Elite in CoH1. A Panzergrenadier blob with the right upgrades demolishes anything it encounters.
I prefer building choke points and get machinegun teams to out last the other side
duddeee it take me back about the zerg rushing in any RTS
When you mentioned how you wanted to use riflemen, you could also throw in the suppression system from Brothers in Arms.
the north africa-italian theatre is the perfect setting to have the basic rifle squad equiped with springfield boltactions. while on paper the M1 replaced the M1903 in 1936 as the standard infantry rifle entire divisions in important frontline locations remained as late as 1944 in the italian theatre amongst american troops, and all the way to 1945 amongst american armed units like various free french forces in italy. and its really not much more of an abstraction than not giveing the units BARs by default.
Bro your channel is sick. You can make funny vids and memes then come out with these analytical bangers.
you just made my heart swell, thank you brother
WHY DOES TIGHTROPES FACE LOOK LIKE THAT?
It's a stressful game :( He puts himself into hypervigilance
I love tightrope's "Just witnessed a tragedy" focused face.
@@Kalmoire Aahah yeah he's a great guy love his videos.
since coh2, the game allways devolve in allies eiter spaming infantry or long range artillery. nothing less
well it makes sense and nothing can happen because rifle squads will be main units to do capping and fighting and arty will counter infrantry and other support elements and even tanks when they go to repair or just got hit mines then there are slow so arty can deal damage or finnished it off
best we can do for coh game is just have diversity and counter play so it can be different while same time would be same in roles but nothing can be done sense it is design core of gameplay wise
also about arty counters can be other arty or light cheap vehicle who can go back lines and destroyed said arty or just be scout unit for calling in offmaps vs stactic arty main thing can be done really so yeah
In CoH2 blobbing and infantry spam only works in a few situations where your opponents can't counter it. Long range artillery and mortars are more annoying but good players will move when they hear the guns fire.
In CoH3.... There's pretty much no anti blob unit. Most anti blob tools like explosives have a limit to how many models it can damage at once (while in CoH2 it only existed in the Ostwind), so most anti infantry vehicles are way weaker.
That is just the mystic of CoH. People complain but it is the reason why they play it. If not they would have been playing another game
In World War 2, I'm pretty sure most german "rifle squads" relied upon their MGs to gain fire superiority. Regardless of the whole Garand vs Kar98 thing, I think the success of any side in a particular engagement more came down to their tactics and support rather than what rifles they wielded.
In terms of gameplay this is a bad issue, in terms of realism...
America churning out Rifle squads and wiping germany?
Now that's accurate.
I really think the biggest issue is manpower cheats combined with how easy it is to reach a critical mass with some units where you can oneshot models, you see top players blobbing with Luftwaffe battlegroup and even Indian Artillery too, but since the ISC's MP cheat is behind fuel rather than Battlegroup XP the ISC ends up getting their first usually, especially in team games, meaning you are punished less and earlier for blobbing than other factions. The video by WilllTHENOOBz called "The Blobing Problem in 1.7" goes into detail why blobbing is strong and often even optimal at high level of play, its just mathematically strong if you can easily reach the critical mass to oneshot models and Riflemen are currently optimal due to their cost and ease of access to MP cheats via ISC. if they were hit, DAK Pgrens or Bren Tommies, would probably become the optimal blob, more things than just MP Cheats need to change.
Though, even with that said, the 25% Reinforce cost reductions are probably bad to balance the game around since it makes units and tactics that punish blobs much less effective at bleeding. If they want infantry to be better and more efficient in the late game, other upgrades for durability, mobility and utility are probably healthier, in addition to buffing things that are used to punish blobbing which aren't locked behind battlegroups. It doesn't help that its hard to get MGs in cover currently, so a blob that can oneshot team weapon models can just facecheck MGs and out DPS them, especially slower suppressing MGs.
I love your videos man keep it up
thank you Brother. I appreciate that
IMO MP reduction is only a small part of why rifles are so dominant in COH.
The true problem, I believe is 3-fold:
1. Rifles are flexible
2. Rifles are accessible/safe
3. Rifles are forgiving
These problems are why it's a bigger problem with USF across 3 games and not a huge problem when the MP buff is given to other factions.
We'll start with the flexibility. Rifles eventually have a tool to counter every threat in the game. They can Sprint/Frag -> MGs, snare aggressive vehicles, on top of being a very competent mid-close range infantry unit. A very skilled player can take advantage of this flexibility to exploit weaknesses in the enemy line through flanks and aggressive use of abilities and losing one or two squads to retreat or wipe doesn't completely remove your ability to counter specific threats. Contrast this with specialized DAK units where losing a specialist would leave a very large gap in your frontline composition.
Secondly rifles, for their utility, are an incredibly accessible unit. Every doctrine/battlegroup has access to almost all the upgrades making it a go to choice regardless of what doctrine or army composition the enemy chooses. This makes rifles a safe option until you can probe out what the enemy might be doing since, with their flexibility they can at least stall even hard-counters. You can very safely play rifle heavy and pick your doctrine/battlegroup once the other player has revealed their hand.
Finally the biggest problem is that rifles are incredibly forgiving to use. In most failed attack and defense scenarios, it is easy hit retreat on the squads and have them likely make it back to base without a squad wipe. Unlike weapon teams, you can quickly correct bad positioning or overextension. Ex. Flanked/overextended rifles can easily relocate/retreat, an overextended MG is just dead. Rifle players are not punished nearly to the same extent that a weapon team based player would be if they got encircled or over extended a push. Not to mention potentially having those weapon teams captured by the aforementioned rifles.
Fundamentally this makes a rifle centric army something that is much easier to execute than it is to counter. Couple that with forgiving game economics and you have a very powerful strategy. I believe there are certain aspects of the game (like unit speed) that make the above issues worse but this sums up what I think make it so frustrating to play against.
the game is supposed to be easy for the simple people... it's mass product like Battlefield 2042 every Hannes can hit with automatic fire...
There are players who are just overwhelmed with 6 different units and just blob with their rifles... that's Relic style. you should also be able to lose a lot and the game is not over yet... you can make a lot more mistakes than in the old titles...
Hacksaw Ridge was my Hurt Locker. Nice use of the clip at 10:56
I noticed pre AI blob nerf I would spam riflemen and atg and on top of that the AI blob every 2 minutes. I would lose like 200 models in a game but still end up winning. It
That opener meme is WWII historically accurate
I'm just over here trying to find the song for when the Lee Enfield is mentioned
i'll try and find it for you when I finish work later. holdfast
iv'e updated the description with a link to the song you wanted
@@Rather.Splended.Cromwell much obliged. nice to add a new irish folk song to my collection
I think MP cheats should go away. There's other ways to make an infantry phase without introducing an all game benefit. Stuff like medic bunkers creating zombie squads made more sense but those were bad too.
Sending waves of US Riflemen seems quite realistic to how the US fought WW2 in Europe if you look at their casualties rate, thanks to their induvial replacement system they could just keep sending the men over and replace them so the Unit as a whole did not have to be moved from the front.
CoH3 is the most simplistic of CoH games in the series. The balance also feels completely off with the British feeling like they have the earliest availability to shut down the opposing team or just to do Stuart spam and dominate the mid game then to rush the enemy base with 3-4 stuarts knocking them out or knocking out all of their resource capabilities.
when you mentioned the 8:42 - 8:59 there is actualy a mechanic in game that was in CoH2 and in CoH3 called "point blank" meaning any unit that is in range from 0-10 units negates all cover basicly meaning if u are sitting on top of an enemy squad regardless of them being in green cover, its not going to count for that squad that is directly on top of them, but it will show in game because your unit is in fact in cover, but it will benefit from cover only against those units who are not in point blank range, thats why in the early game rushing enemies in cover pays out in certain scenarios
As a Brit Main, im finding it extremely frustrating to have American Allies, just because they lack any capacity to hold ground. I dont really blame them, but when the 30.cal is a pile of turd, and axis have heaps of anti team weapon options (including walking at machine guns laughing as was mentioned) I feel like i cant rely on a secure flank as a brit player. Right now as well axis infantry feels wildly oppressive, with the grenadier switch out being horrid to deal with, Axis elites show up so early in comparison to their counters (stoss having their own call in for instance) and even trying to trade favourably as brits doesnt actually feel like its achieving anything. The Yanks also dont have an effective mid game to bring out it seems, chaffees got nerfed into oblivion, there is no bigger artillery than a mortar (non doc) and Nebel spamn is just hugely oppressive right now (needs to have its range cut down massively imo to make it somewhat risky to bring 2/3 in). That coupled with allies lacking a good answer to tigers right now (the hellcat is paper and the 17pdr is a meme) means the axis feel extremely frustrating at the moment. Finally, axis recon is so good right now as to make any attempt at a surprise move useless without camo (Nuke the Kets recon PLEASE, you dont need it AND mortar flare) so being tricksy with light vehicles is also slightly null. I am growing ever more resigned that its going to descend as number 2 did into company of artillery, which made 2 so ruddy boring at the end of its lifecycle, so id like to see alternatives to, encourage more arty.
At least in coh2 the “manpower cheat” for cons wasn’t op. It was only a 2 mp reduction and gave them great benefits for them.
I wonder if some of this is what the new Heavy Tank doctrines are going to deal with? Trouble there is, if you end up with a bunch of high end tanks that blap entire squads in a single shot, they better put a good counter for that vehicle!
>Not enough punishment for just running your riflemen at the enemy, particularly early game
Did they remove suppression? I skipped COH2 and was going to get this but the botched release stopped me.
With enough spacing you can only suppress one squad with the MG, ergo you just flank it cuz MGs are more micro intensive than just rushing so in the end the rifles still win
@@Edge_Boye That isn't just "running your riflemen at the enemy" though. You think that issuing flanking commands to 4-5 units (or more as we see in this video) is less micro intensive than using a single, stationary unit (MG) and manually clicking on approaching rifles, one at a time, allowing enough time to suppress them?
That is if a single unit should even be able to deal with 4-5 units flanking it.. which I think the answer is probably no?
I know suppression wasn't removed but it doesn't appear to work on blobs very well at all.
I really wanted to get this COH, but I keep checking back and while it has improved it is still a long way off something that looks enjoyable to play. Meanwhile blizzard of all people are polishing wc3 again.
You call it spam, in the Imperium we call it tactical superiority
I think giving Pour it on Em a 20-30 muni cost would help significantly. Same with the P-Gren Vet 1 ability for Wehr.
I think they'd have to make it better just justify the cost, its lack luster at best, Sprint is so good.
COH2 had the OKW as the go-to faction for braindead infantry spamming to instantly win against most players
the devs then decided to switch teams and make USF the braindead rush faction for COH3 instead of removing braindead rush factions
I find it surprising that massed infantry doesnt get chewed up by like 1 machine gun
What how is a Thompson less effective at short ranges than a rifle...
5men squad Riflemen + higher pop cap
I was expecting just another CoH3-bashing vid longing for the "good old days" of the previous games. This was actually measured and well-delivered criticism. I thought the buff to lethality against squads out of cover went some way to lessening the effectiveness of blobs and silly infantry gameplay, so maybe more of that could help?
Thankfully, at my lowly level nobody plays meta, so I see more varied strats. Tbh, I find rangers more frustrating to deal with than riflemen in my brass/bronze games.
I bought coh 3, played 4 games and started playing coh 1 again still to this day
you are wasting your breath on this dumpster fire...
The problem is way bigger than this, starting from when you boot the game and get blasted by that horrible souless UI, to the low quality of everything, especially considering it is a 60-70 dollar game.
Unrelated but I love to play the game Call to Arms: Gates of Hell with AI. The Liberation DLC adds the Americans as a faction. Let me tell you, I can barely play against them because for some goddamn reason, and unlike the Germans, Soviets, and Finns, the American AI loves to spam self propelled artillery. They can take out your awesome and expensive Tiger or IS from almost across the map and you won't even know what hit you unless they miss and you see the explosion nearby. Not to mention they make mincemeat of your infantry with their Garands.
Though anything less than the Pershing is scrap metal when faced with a large German or Soviet gun.
historically accurate American doctrine. Men and material poured on. Makes me proud.
other great video and i agree on most points
and also main problem i find about manpower cheats they just huge reduction if it would be little like 10 % or so would be better balance and still give tiny bit room to do something per say
and same with italian coastal mine reduction same problem to be reduction to be consider balance and fun for other player who playing it against
and i finding it to be number 1 problem as number 2 is just buff other things for usf like mg buff to suppress infrantry , and tiny buff for airborne and sff in dps wise ( and long range ) to give better reason to build ( while is that there aren't bad units just they are overshadow by riflemen as good unit )
thank you for your feedback brother
To be fair this is historically accurate...
The allied leaders themselves recognized that 1:1 they were not beating the Germans.
Not a huge coh person but I feel a lot of your "this is irl doctrine" stuff doenst work vecause coh is arcady, as you said. It seems counterintuitive to mention the doctrinal uses when it cant really be relevant - combat in coh is just not that
Knit-pick but I always need to point it out:
It's not guh-rand (despite what many people say), it's gehr-end
Yo mama
Lore accurate rifleman 😂
Not good for the game but does get a chuckle out of me
Lore accurate American infantry
rifleman was THE most important unit in USF in coh1. The rifleman was always superior to volksgrenadier and grenadier the closer it got to them. Even panzer grenadiers would always try to be max firing range away from riflemen. And yes, the move was to just click your rifleman ontop of the enemy's volks/pzgrens if you could.
USF would always take more losses than Wehr in CoH1 and still win. IF USF had less casualties than wehr it means that they roflstomped them.
anything is better than sniper dominance in my books
Good convo but let me know if the voice lines are any good so I can dub more Girls Und Panzer clips
Only proper way to negate blobs, You add aura that works like zeal from COH 1 but negative effect, calculating a proximity of standart inf can be open up negative debuff for opponent inf esp mgs to shoot more accurate because of the more inf on land to shoot idea. I thing 2 rifleman on 8 range for example. Aura effects canbe calibrated to classes but I thing generally one calibration can makes to whole the difference. Plus ditching manpower cheats obviously.
There is something i dont understand, if the rifles are the meta, does it means that if they buff alternatives it will just break the game even more? Its the only thing they keep saying, without pointing that maybe riflemen need a nerf so other things become more relevant, because maybe its not that the other things are bad and its just that riflemen are too good.
USF have always been pidgeonholed into being an early game, constant pressure faction, and rifles+ISC is the only option that supports that forced playstyle. Basically, it's a design issue, where nerfing rifles without major buffs elsewhere just ends up crippling the faction.
I think they tried to run with the supply yard idea from coh1. But, it's definitely over done. Captain should probably be unlocked rather than free and the 25% MP reduction could be reduced to say 15% with a cost decrease.
In the franchise...Axis has been blobing for 10 years...
The problem is exaggerated by every other american base unit is so bad, engineers can't charge to close range after dps increase, scout is a joke providing less vision than pioneers, jeep is basically waste of 200mp after the 1.5 penetration buff to small arms, 30 cal hmg perform worse than a maxim and you can't even cooperate with another utility squad to maintain suppression, bazooka squad has all the gimmick but snare removed, sprint removed and 2 zook 120 dmg is a joke compare to shreck 160dmg
The quad with 4 guns shooting somehow doesn't suppress, kill infantry slower than a regular mg42, incompetent at anti-air.
I see your Rifleman meme and raise you a Youre right and you should say it.
In all seriousness though, the spam in CoH3 is really killing the game for me. I love CoH. Between 2 and 3 Im coming up on 4000hrs. But the spam in CoH3, no matter if youre playing Axis or Allies is both boring and aggravating.
Here for the memes.
I should have put more in for you pal, im working on another video idea atm, its going to be meme heavy, I promise :)
@@Rather.Splended.Cromwell based. Great videos though. Very splended.
@@tea2thebagel58 thank you brother
Pop Cap is the issue imo, being non-dynamic unlike CoH1 is hurting diversity build. That's probably the number 1 issue right there, pop cap needing logistic upgrades to reach 100.
CoH1 & DoW1 knew that, they were built with that resource in mind.
Remove ALL manpower cheats, Captain spawns from all upgrade centres and bring back Vehicle Crush.
Anything else would require a total faction redesign, as everything EXCEPT Riflemen was either weak or nerfed to hell
Lore accurate US gameplay
No one will ever be as nerfed to the ground as the two most mid commanders to ever be nerfed
American rifle coh2 Falschirmjager coh2
Jesus, they really made the American meta into meatwaves like the communists in Korea and early WW2 lmao
1/ BAR upgrade from 40f to 15f but no more free 1st bar. Bar cost 75 ammo each.
2/ ISC logistic need big nerf on mp cheat.
3/ rifleman pop cap must higher like CoH1
I didn't play COH that much (only training from COH1) so im not well informed about balance of these games.
BUT the dominance of riflemen isn't something unseen before if you know sudden strike which helped pioneer the road for games like COH it had a rifle problem well not American rifles but all rifle users were OP against other infantry.
Now when it comes to how would you balance the garand well I think making its damage half that of bolt rifles is maybe good idea basically Americans would fire twice as fast granting equal damage to other bolt rifle users at least that's how I balanced American riflemen when I modded Sudden strike 2.
Now riflemen being a core part of the US faction in every RTS that is just something you have to do.
Riflemen need to go back down to 90hp per model and get better mid and especially short range accuracy. This way you have a reason to get Sprint instead of pour it on them. Speaking of PIOT, it needs its suppression doubled so it cant actually suppress a squad in its duration.
This enables better bleed and reduces the toxic HP pool that rifles have. 100 HP on a 6 man squad is too much HP per infantry squad.
Grens need to go up to 90hp aswell and get a LMG upgrade.
if you want a BOB style riflemen then they need a stationary suppression passive. it forces them to not move to benefit from it.
that would be super toxic for the enemy to deal with though. so i am in no way supporting that.
though the HMG buff for the allies is something that badly needs to happen. Suppression modifier should be set from 1.45 to 2 (sense it has a way lower ROF than MG42 and thus has less suppression. AOE suppression needs to go up aswell to match the MG42. the alternate is MG42 AOE suppression getting lowered to match other MGs, but then that further reinforces blob gameplay which is horrible. so its not really an option.
I liked the parachute AT gun behind my friends King Tiger in CoH1 better. Pretty sure I gave him PTSD. Every time he got hyped becouse he made a successful push Bamm, Airborn and he lost.
i miss coh2 riflemen (didnt miss their scaling against a-move LMGs). I loved the infantry dynamics of coh2 with the smaller squad sizes; conscripts required good positional play to win fights while riflemen could take more liberties at the cost of bleeding if you messed up. volks were obviously the worst, but i liked them in the early game because they were the mids of mid--the most mainline of mainlines. Every model held so much more value, whereas this dumb meta has got me forgoing riflemen for more interesting alternatives, yet there is still no viable coastal/conscript/penal type unit for usf.
Bro I just wanted continued console support this was one of the best RTS’s on Xbox and I would’ve loved to buy dlc to keep playing the game but sadly it is not to be :(
I feel the mod for Coh2 spearhead calls to cover being the god send if you run into the open with nothing engaging Lmgs and Hmgs they melt your troops leading to needing to think about how to close in without getting pinned down and deleted
You should have to risk to win but you never be like how it is now
Also the number of guys on the troops are both too low and to many
The red army had a good unit conscripts did one job fight
And if you got one an AT weapon then you had a better At unit then a At gun
+ numbers you could always find a way to win vs conscripts blobs Mgs tanks built for cc or a well placed mine field
Can with smarts and being sneaky remove blobs
Bigger maps with less people means more thinking and it does get hard to see the full battlefield but it’s still helpful to show how to do good recon and planning
Coh3 didn’t fill me with confidence from the movement and the gameplay it only showed me incompetence and moving steps backwards not forward
I don't play this game and have no intention of ever playing this game. I don't know why I watched this video. Well made video though.
Imagine if you could get shotguns for riglemen too lol
Using a bullet hose as a straight nerf? That is stupid.
this is exactly why i stopped playing this game. riffle spam with 1 mortar is literally unbeatable.
so sad, so true
I wish rifles were the only problem of the game. Whole sort of more important things are absolutely messed up. Like the panther being made out of paper and other tanks in general besides several allied tanks. For some reason m4a1 Sherman has decent armor penetration now and is a capable tank against panzer 4 which is useless from my point of view in general.
I guess coh 3 just needed axis and buffed allies.