ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2020
- LINKS:
ATC Report:
www.fliegerfaust.com/plane-cr...
Karachi Approach Plates (Outdated):
vau.aero/navdb/chart/OPKC.pdf
Theme:
"Weightless"
Aram Bedrosian
arambedrosian.com
Patreon:
www.patreon.com/user?u=529500...
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www.paypal.me/juanbrowne - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
![[RARE ATC] INCOMPETENT PILOT DRIVES ATC CRAZY!!!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D88EZJ2wJ7M/mqdefault.jpg)
This video was DE-MONETIZED by TH-cam AFTER giving the green light. Please join me over on Patreon (1 Dollar/mo.) where you can view all my content as soon as it comes out. I've had it with You Tube, see ya there. Juan- www.patreon.com/user?u=5295000&fan_landing=true
Forget YT...see you there
Ahhh that's really unfortunate, well, keep it up because I think this is automated, and hopefully this grows big enough to be noticed and remedied by youtube, you may want to seriously think about creating a mirror channel on Brighteon.com, you could get more patrons from there. Also $1's a bit low, I didn't expect you'd be that generous, have it as a special for a month or two then put it for $2 later, you deserve it, better announce it before you change, but it's up to you :)
TH-cam is destroying the very thing that made it so wonderful in an effort to.....wait.....i have no idea what they are trying to do. Thanks as akways juan
Is youtube just getting cheap and ripping contributors off in the process? This demonetizing by youtube is "rampant"
FYI, I’m upping my Patreon membership from $5/mo to $10/mo to help subsidize a few of those need to drop to the $1 level. This is content I can’t get anywhere else and I’d like to see it continue. Thanks for all your reporting, Juan.
TH-cam monetization policy : 👎👎
Juan content : 👍👍
Now, I'm no expert when it comes to TH-cam monetisation policies, and this is simply my personal opinion, but how on Earth can a factual report, supported by evidence not receive monies? In any case, Juan you're awesome and I for one, have enjoyed hearing you pronounce 'Karachi'...fly safe folks!
TH-cam seems to demonetise anything that isn't cats playing the piano, or a home baking video. Just a couple of months ago even mentioning coronavirus was sufficient to be banned, irrespective of context.
TH-cam played an ad before the video for me so I guess it's monetised now and Juan is making mad bank and about to buy a yacht
I guess I don't understand. I thought YT was automatically demonetizing your content. Are you filing a protest to get each video re-monetized? Given that cable channels have run similar content and crash analysis for years and have no problem getting advertisers, I think YT is nuts. But, it has be taken over by a bunch of leftist SJW types who are offended by anything that doesn't fit their ideology. Anyway, I'll continue supporting you.
Its a complex topic.
In Juan case. He produces top notch content..Many of us agree. but since the topics are 'sensitive' in eyes of YT, they are not monetizing it and pay money directly to Juan. It is with many many creators.
On a related topic, I as a creator can tell something. We creators are also at fault. We join YT just for fun or hobby or to show our creativity whatever. But then later we consider YT as our employer and us (creators) as employees. We consider that YT *must* pay us, make our channel grow huge, etc. But this is not the case . If creators, very big or very small they may be, consider YT just as a hobby, etc and forget about money!!!.. That wud solve the 'thirst' for monetization problem. But not the case always.
Your expertise on this stuff and ability to explain it to common people is incredible
MAKLI is on radial 075 degrees from KC VOR 112.1 at 14,9 NM from threshold 25 L. Extracted from lido chart. Madjid
It’s also a gps fix for the RNP Rwy 25L
I'm pretty sure this was not the first time the pilot did such "comfortable" things.
Yep 17,000 flight hrs.
@@inlikearefugee5194 well that's a bit of support for the "high hour pilots get complacent and lazy and are worse than relatively low hour pilots" theory
Yes, indeed.
A number of years ago..I made a go-around at Kansas City, when I found myself too high for landing...this was a 737 and the weather was CAVU (clear and visibility unlimited). It was my mistake, somehow, I was cleared for a visual and just let my descent get away from me. A quick 360 and all was well...flying for the Best Airline in the World helped!
Thx for the update Juan, really enjoy your posts.
So in summary of this excellent data, it seems the pilot arrived too high on approach, dived to get down to the correct altitude, but in doing so, created a 130 knots overspeed, preventing the gear deployment (due to its speed failsafe) and resulting in the runway engine strikes, engine failure and subsequent crash? Thanks for this Juan.👍🏻
Aha moment
I think you describe exactly what was happening to that flight.
Sadly, Peter, what you have said looks to be a good summary of what happened... but why? Why were they so high on approach and why didn't they go around or take other action to lower their altitude before approach? And why attempt to land with such huge overspeed?
@@cmartin_ok classic "hold my beer" situation.
Previous flight data of the same plane and flight the captain did the similar slam dunk approach. Aka drop from great height right to the landing zone of the runway.
The captain thinks he could do the same on this flight but mis judged it and slammed the engines on the runway and damaging them sealing the fate of the plane and everyone onboard.
Bruh moment.
From a current Jeppesen chart ..”MAKLI” waypoint is at 15 DME from “KC” VOR ,which is according to distance to threshold about 15.1 NM
I found it via Skyvector, 15 miles out on the 075 KC radial.
@@chrisschack9716 where in Skyvector ? I have nothing else between PUNAM and KC... Only found MAKLI on FlightRadar24 (premium) here's my screen capture: ibb.co/J2WhYLD
It‘s part of the ILS Y RWY 25L.
It’s on the ILS/LOC Y 25L
My charts show MARVI, about 15 miles to the runway threshold, between KC and PUNAM. Maybe the waypoint has been renamed recently? Does this happen? (And off topic: if the rename happened around March.. Might this have to do something with Marvi Sirmed?)
It looks like the same place as MAKLI on @vincent Grondin's picture.
It's part of RNAV25L/R
MARVI restrictions: B230kts, A3000ft.
Does anyone know the restrictions for MAKLI?
CORRECTION: when climbing thru the Transition Altitude of 3000' set QNE (1013.2) and descending thru Transition Level 5000' set QNH (3004)-edited.
Great Analysis of the Report. ThX for the clarification and correction, Juan. Keep up the excellent work.
QNF? Not airport QNE when descending? QFE means airport elevation or am I wrong? Thanks for the video.
blancolirio - or even QNH?
Qnh, not qnf, great video anyway!
Climbing though Trans Alt set set QNE 1013.2mb - Descending through Trans LVL set QNH 1004
I would imagine Pilot Ego was a major influence in this accident. We can probably all learn from that a little bit.
Lets not blame the ego alone it highlights the culture of not curbing this behavior and importance to safety given by the airliner
I know it's easy to say now but all he had to do was 1 x 360. Very sad. Over confidence / complacency appears to be the main cause, and probably a bit of a reluctance by FO to challenge the captain. This has happened previously.
Every pilot should listen to atc
Could it be deliberate? Just a wild thought...
@@sriramramamoorthy1589 no🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
As a resident of Pakistan, I am so disappointed (but not surprised) that our own media and government have continued to obfuscate and poison the information being released to the public.
Thank you so much for all your good work and for releasing good, accurate, and the unbiased information you have provided on this disaster.
Landings are much like farts - if you have to force it, things get messy.
I like this image LOL
:D
if you don't have to change your pants afterwards .. it's a good fart.. i mean .. landing 😂
Michael Hemmingsen air crash is always a very sad event but I could stop laughing at your analogy/ comparison
wear the brown pants
Thank you for the explanation Capt !
Appreciate the update Sir. Vey thorough. Wow!! This is the most generous patreon offer ive seen considering the content provided. Thanks. Tc
Hi Juan, Thank you for the update on the tragedy of PIA.
This is just crazy. There are not adequate words to describe the level of crazy.
Welcome to 3rd world Islamist airlines
@@oveidasinclair982 what does that have to do with islam it could have been any where... think before saying something.
@@oveidasinclair982 Hey, check your pants, your racism is showing.
Yes it seems crazy. Agreed on that point!
Scary that this airline flys in & out of LHR every day !
I think the point that Oveida is making is this would never have happened in Europe, USA or Australia, ATC would have cancelled or not issued landing clearance in the same or similar circumstances, In fact hey would never have been passed to Tower ATC control from approach or director ATC with those altitude & speed anomalies.
Flying in to LHR or LGW control zones aircraft have to be at a maximum FL 100 & at a speed no greater than 250knots, this is with more than 30 track miles to landing !!!
As always, very good analysis and top notch content on aviation.
I pulled up the current Jep charts for Karachi. MAKLI is a fix used on both the RNAV runway 7L and RNP 7R approaches . Aircraft cross the fix at FL080 and fly a heading of 233 to NOMOS on a downwind leg to the runway. And another fantastic video Juan.
Thanks for covering this... God bless all the souls who passed away in this tragic accident 🙏
If the pilot would have survived, he would definitely be going to prison.
Not in Pakistan unfortunately - you see people are still calling him martyr and had he survived this incident would have been covered under the rugs like the previous 3 hot and high approaches that have happened this year
He chose death over prison lol
@@naziahaslam8332 Deaths
@@nadirdurrani2439 so sad to read your comment.. seriosuly?? He is a martyr even if he has made a huge mistake. Why reducing the mercy of Allah? Don't you want to be forgiven on the day of judgement after all the mistakes you have made in your life?
@@seekthelight9404 Why do you think he is a martyr? What is your definition? If I run into a car accident checking my mobile phone and end up killing myself along with 100 pedestrians would you call me a martyr ? My act would be/should be called as a criminal negligence which ended lives of 100 other people.
It's going to be interesting to hear the CVR conversations. This seems to be a similar scenario as Airblue 202. Really sad. Ego and power-tripping leads to disaster. Speculation at this stage of course. R.I.P to all aboard both flights.
Na I think you're spot on. The way he ignores atc and keeps saying we're comfortable when he clearly wasn't, I feel like slapping him for the bully that he seemed to be.
Simon James Tatt - Adding to that, it would interesting to hear the ATC tapes, from the point where he entered Karachi Approach Control airspace. So much more info can be gleaned to paint a better picture of this incident. To be honest, I doubt we will get all the pertinent information. This is a Cultural-political problem.
@@rubenvillanueva8635 The co pilot must have been so cowed that he couldn't or wouldn't influence the situation. I'm sure this has been addressed in crew training elsewhere. I think there was a similar situation in a Trident crash in the uk in the seventies or early eighties.
You always do such a great job on these. Thank you! You are always so thorough. Topic suggestion on that GA side. We just had another Piper PA series with a spar failure in flight. Killed an entire family. Looks like the FAA is about to make changes to the directive in inspecting these spars. We have had so many of these in the past few years that I thought it might make a great video, or even short series. There are so many of these older PA 28 type aircraft still flying. Thanks again
Excellent update Juan. I have travelled by air extensively over the past 40 years and have accumulated approaching 2 million air miles. Every time I have travelled I’ve put my trust fully in the hands of the pilot/crew, ATC, maintenance team, and others, as well as the incredibly well designed airplanes. I’ve never come close to a disaster like this. Worst experience was an engine failure immediately after take off. No problem though, we landed back at Chicago (O’Hare) and united airlines took us by bus to South Bend. A few other interesting flights like three “go arounds” at Philadelphia before the pilot determined that we could not land (due to fog) and went on to another airport. So not a lot of drama in my flying life! I’m very grateful for that.
Apparently the initial descent from 35(?)000' was done 3 minutes after their clearance; why is unknown. Is this going to be the worst case of 'target fixation' ever to occur? Thanks for the update and good information!
Good lighting and quality today!
Just became a patreon! Thank you for your quality content juan!
Hi Juan, Love your stuff. MAKLI is on Radial 075 from KC VOR at 15DME. Crossing Height when on LOC for 25R & 25L ILS Y approaches is 3000'.
MAKLI is part of the published RNP approaches, and ILS or LOC Y R25L and R, and VOR Z 25L and R. 15 DME from the VOR.
If someone could break this down for us noobs that would be 👌🏼
@@polopol123450 Basically, MAKLI is a waypoint at which these approaches begin. RNP, ILS and VOR are all different types of approaches. RNP approaches rely on GNSS whereas ILS and VOR use ground based navaids for their approaches. ILS' are the most commonly used approaches, at least on this side of the world. Coming back to MAKLI, the aircraft would've had to fly over this waypoint for the commencement of the approach. It is essentially the start of the approach. According to Jepps approach charts for the ILS, the aircraft shouldve been at an altitude of 3000ft. Which is why it's so important to compare what the actual altitude was at MAKLI
Makli is a town near to Karachi and somewhere around 50-60 miles from Karachi.
@@brucerodrigues1 what is ironic is that the ILS Y 25L approach chart even depicts a holding pattern at MAKLI that you can enter at FL 80, and then lose your altitude in the holding pattern. So no need to even go around, just do a nice hold to lose speed and altitude, one circuit would probably do it.
Sounds like what my son described going into Bagdad on a C17 during the war.
Hahahahahahaha
200 kts ground speed 😳 yikes, awesome report as well. Mr.Browne I have decided to support you on patreon, thank you for the content.
Hi Juan.....MALKI is on the Jepp 11-2 Chart ILS 25L. It is on the 074 radial @ 15nm, and aligned with the localiser. Crossing height inbound is 3000’. It is part of the procedure turn if necessary crossing MALKI 8000’ outbound. Max speed outbound is 230 Knots. Hope this helps.
Must have looked like a full-blown tactical descent to anyone watching.
Khe Sanh dive, maybe he used to fly a C 130?
See video of C-17 descending into San Clemente.
Maybe he misheard the controller and thought he was cleared for the STUKA into rwy 25L.
we have a video of it you know
RGR PAKISTAN 8303 CLEARED FOR THE SPACE SHUTTLE APPROACH RWY 25L.
great work, love the way you pronounce "KARACHII", much appreciated.
Thanks Juan. Seems you are one of the few aviation content channels providing accurate as well as educational aviation content these days.
Congratulates on hitting 200,000 subscribers. Job will done
4:46 he can't believe it himself
Seems more like a dive bombing attack run on the Hiryu in a SBD Dauntless than approaching a major international airport in an A320.
Looks like altimeter was faulty giving incorrect reading by 5000ft less
@@engineerahmed7248 who is saying that? why would thinking you're 5000 ft lower than you actually are cause you to do anything but over fly the runway with 5000' under you?
Hey, thanks for the new Patreon tier. I'm not a pilot, not an aspiring pilot, I just find this stuff pretty interesting and I enjoy your delivery of these videos. I can definitely get on board there.
You are doing a great job with these updates. Thank you!
Great reporting Juan and I'd love to hear everyone's views -
Following this report, without any instruction in the conversation between PIA8303 and ATC, it seems clear there was no other issue at fault (ie no declaration of failures or an emergency) at what point in 2020 would be an approach like this be deemed acceptable? Not even near the envelope of safety and operation of the vital components of the aircraft.
I will look forward to the hearing the voice recorder on this one. Never the less, it doesn't take away the fact so many lives have been lost through wreckless decision making.
My thoughts - why didn't ATC at the second time of communication, decline PIA8303 and send it around? There must have been element of doubt and caution should favour the safety on the ground and in the air here.
Yes indeed we all look forward to hearing the CVR recording (or reading the transcript) to get to know more about this sad disaster. As a an aviation professional and ground operations trainer, I was really shocked by this crash, especially the way it happened and with the information we've got at that time (thanks to Juan ;-) ).
We could spend hours (and days) speculating about this, and a lot of arguments would come to our mind, like MCC and CRM issues due to local culture (high respect to seniors which would prevent a copilot from correcting his captain, and also the fear of loosing face, etc...)
Some of my fellow pilots who've flown in the indian subcontinent and Asia told me their cockpit stories about events they've experienced that were potentially dangerous due to pilot relationship behaviour. Their conclusions were that it was extremely difficult in some cases to apply ICAO CRM standards because of cultural traditions that were so deeply "anchored" in the people, that they would prevent them from behaving as we would expect when it comes to aviation safety.
Vincent Grondin great insight Vincent. Thanks v.much
I'm not sure if it's more or less encouraging that it's clear this was massive pilot error rather than a mechanical problem in a basically brand new aircraft
Yes, but not a new aircraft, It was built in 2004
Jess Pyle - But nothing contrary to any problems with the aircraft has been shown.
Well I for one find it very reassuring. I fly in this aircraft type frequently, hopefully being operated by a well-run company with the right management culture, but I suppose you never know. Worth checking safety record. I won't be flying with this airline anytime soon.
Since something like 85% or more of aircraft incidents are the result of pilot error, and not a mechanical failure, I'd say this is neither encouraging nor discouraging, but statistically expected.
I love your precious matter of fact reporting of the facts keep up the great work
Another super informative session. Thanks Juan!!!
Thanks for the video once again Juan. I know you've probably already reported this but I assume the black boxes were recovered? Thanks again.
S C At 00:52 in the video.
@@gordonrichardson2972 Well that's embarrassing.
@@11SEXMACHINE... not as embarrassing as being captain of 8303 though.
@@amascia8327 lol
Amazing follow up!! Great job friend! Do you think the speedometer was malfunctioning?
ET Unlikely. It would have to be airspeed indicator, altimeter, and radio (given what the ATC testimony states), so much more likely to be a wet-ware problem interpreting the data from the instruments (and ignoring all basic flight training). There would have been many, many other clues, and probably multiple alarms as gear wouldn’t deploy at speed, ground proximity would have been detected etc etc. There is no way they were following checklists, and no indication from ATC the flight crew knew there might be a problem like that (and they WOULD have known).
It seems more likely that the pilot's brain was malfunctioning.
That report was a tease and I know that wouldn't be part of the atc report. It came down at 210 knots.....without the landing gear.. nice work, again
You can find "MAKLI" in Skyvector. This waypoint is 14.9nm from VOR "KC". This should match the waypoint MARVI on your aproach plate.
As I remember they touched down far down the runway as well so with the gear down they would probably have over run the runway. It's just crazy.
He fully touched down at 5,500 feet, so with the gear down he would have most likely stopped before the end, because A320's landing distance is 4,500 feet when full of passengers and landing on a dry runway. The runway length at Karachi is 11,000 feet so he would have another 5,500 feet of runway length to stop.
@@AviationNut At what speed would an A320 need to touch down in order to achieve your stated 4,500 ft stopping distance? Cheers.
And even if he didn't have his gear down - once you touch the ground, you're down. You don't yank up a plane you're not certain is gonna fly. This pilot made so many errors in such short time, it's hard to believe that his record of thousands of hours of flying is correct...
@@QemeH this pilot must have had bad habits for a long time, but it finally caught up with him. RIP to the victims.
@@QemeH he hit the ground THREE TIMES and he still pulled it back into the air!
So he basically flew the thing into the ground. What a muppet, got his ticket in a lucky packet. Unbelievable...
Twice
It’s confusing. The captain had 17,000 flight hours. How is it possible for someone so experienced to do this?
BDLL it’s called alcohol....
@@gs98999 it is called fate.
@@gs98999 once there was a woodpecker and a crow. Woodpecker said: i can see the water deep under the ground from a high altitude. Crow: so why can't you see the trap set down for you on the ground
Woodpecker: here comes the fate. If it was not for the fate, I could have seen the trap.
Juan,
Thanks for the thorough analysis on this aviation disaster. My heart goes out to the unfortunate passengers of PIA flight 8303 who had paid the ultimate price with their lives for pilot's mistakes and incompetency.
MAKLI INT seen on Jeppesen 17 Jan 20 OPKC/KHI STAR. It arrives over NH. MAKLI at roughly 112.1 KC 075 @ 15. Seen on another YT channel. Yours is the BEST!
Why is TH-cam being this way? I am not liking what I hear about them lately!!!!
Google
I have had multiple "Google Reviews" posts on lawyers' sites, KY Bar Association, KY Medical Board, and hospitals where patients have died etc. all scrubbed (shadowbanned) by Google. These included names, statutes, case numbers, events in detail which could easily be sourced to verify. After posting my one Google review warning about Marcia L Sparks Esq. Louisville, KY, she suddenly added about six 5 star reviews to dilute out my one-star review. (reputation repair services do this). Now that my review has been scrubbed, people see only her "plants." She never had any reviews until I posted my one-star review to warn the public. After my review was scrubbed, she hasn't added a single additional review in over a year! You absolutely can NOT rely on what you read in any reviews. Similarly, www.avvo.com scrubbed my review of her after 4 months.
they've always been like this.
TH-cam and Google are the scum of the Earth
@@jamindan79 Exactly! And they are going to get worse. The steer things in a leftist direction and now at the top of the youtube home page is a banner link to something called intersectionality. It's shaming white people and the word is created by evil scum of the earth as you stated.
It seems in Pakistan there's no air traffic CONTROLLER... but only air traffic SUGGESTOR
What is ATC supposed to do, "beam up" and take over the pilot??? You *cannot* "control" what a pilot decides to do.
@Ganga Din Tower controllers don't generally deny clearance because the pilot is screwing up. They deny clearance because of a safety issue on the airport itself or if you are too close to other traffic. I have had controllers clear me to land (even in the USA) when it wasn't a good idea. This includes being too high and too fast (bad vectoring from the approach controller). We chose not to land and executed a missed approach from 1000 feet. It's just that easy.
@Ganga Din So what? this pilot could have brought 'er in anyway and we'd be at the same end.
"STOP!! Or I will yell STOP a second time!"
@Ganga Din Yes, but that still wouldn't stop a pilot determined to land. The pilot already ignored ATC's call to change heading because of being too high for approach.
He is right ? He should have denied and reported and shouldn't let him down without fixing all up.
Thanks Juan, a National Resource, for another outstanding report. I will continue with my current Patreon level, we are all in this together.
Just subscribed at the $5 level. Great channel. Thanks for all your great, reliable, content, especially on aircraft incidents/crashes. Any chance you can do an update/overview on Malaysian Airlines (the vanishing plane).
Did they just wake up in the cockpit and went "crap, we are nearly there, dive, dive, dive!"...
ladies and gentlemen you've got QUESTIONS and the CVR/FDR have ANSWERS.
Philly Phil - Yes, but will they give us the truth! We Can Handle The Truth!
MAKLI is holding fix at 15NM East of Karachi, on approach path. You can find it on RNP Approach charts of Karachi, great job Joan.
I'll gladly pay the buck a month for this quality content. You're my first patreon subscription.
What's in ur background ? Trees ND birds chirping is v beautiful
Yep, that's his back yard...or is it front yard 🙃 but whichever it is, it's a beautiful backdrop and part of the world....cheers from Aus!!!!
That's my "green screen" lol, my back yard.
Must have been a wild ride as a passenger 😫💥
Not really, a 6,000 feet decent is steep but not a terrifying drop
One of the two surviving passengers gave an interview in which he stated, that during the first approach everything seemed to be normal from the cabin view and that from the Cockpit only the information was given: "We´re landing now. Fasten your seat belts." And that during the go-around again only the information from the cockpit was given: "We´re landing now. Fasten your seat belts." Due to this interview it was only recognized in the cabin that something was wrong when the engines stopped running.
That´s what I´ve readed. I cannot say anything how to do an interpretation of this testimony. But I think it´s at least a possibility that near to the very end the passengers had no idea that they were facing a desaster which nearly nobody of them would survive - or in other words: That they would be dead in a few minutes.
@@NicolaW72 I've read that statement from one of the survivors and it's inexplicable how he wouldn't comprehend the steep approach or the colossal noise of engine scraping down or the sparks generated out of the window or the fact that the plane was sitting much lower on the tarmac? Shock, alcohol, denial?
@@waynesimpson2074 that's true, it was a pretty rapid decent to the runway
@@waynesimpson2074 I think alcohol should be the last resort for an explanation, taken the standards of the Pakistani society into consideration and that you will hardly be able to become drunken while flying PIA. As I´ve said: I only can take this to my notice that it obviously wasn´t recognized in the cabin until the very end how dangerous the situation had in fact become. And it´s in fact the statement of one from 91 passengers who were on board of this plane at this occasion. 89 other passengers have no possibility to give a statement. But I see one real hard fact in this disturbing statement: That the pilots didn´t prepare the cabin for an emergency landing, even not during the go-around after scraping the runway with both engines.
Very informative, as always. Thanks Juan!
Cheers,
Julien
Juan, Thank you for keeping us up on this. Like you, it sounds like the pilot was WAY to high and FAST!
Given the corporate ego and financial pressures involved, what are the chances the approach controller is faulted for not closing the approach and force a "go round" or diversion?
It seem the controller was afraid of exercising his authority.
Fredric, I too was wondering if the command "Go Around" is a universal term in all countries, that does not allow the pilot the option to overturn it. Did that controller know that terminology and just choose instead to use something less powerful than a command and more of a suggestion like "heading 180". I'm not a pilot but from what I've read and seen on youtube, there is a fine line the controllers have to navigate with the pilots. The pilot ultimately has final say on almost everything in almost every situation and the controller is there to assist with information. The controller gave the pilot every chance with timely information to make the right decision and the pilot blindly blundered into additional bad decisions ending with a stall.
No such responsibilities
@@timhardman4764 Some enlightenment is needed here. At all stages, the Pilot in Command is the Pilot in Command. There is no "operational control" had by the controller. The PIC has made these decisions of which I cannot fathom. This is not a wave off mentality. The decisions are his responsibility and his alone. What may appear following the CVR release is the "command gradient" between the Capt and F/O was heavily in favour of the Captain, but that is speculation for now.
@@mirimar69 That´s absolutely correct and the usual handling worldwide. It should be underlined to avoid further misunderstandings.
Btw.: At one point of the R/C during the Go-around you can hear the Captain as Pilot Flying saying in the Back Ground: "Give me two thousand." And the F/O as Pilot Monitoring is repeating that word by word: "Give me two thousand." The Captain had a very high seniority with his more than 17000 hours of flight experience and the CVR hopefully will discover if a lack of CRM caused by this seniority was one reason of this crash. It wouldn´t be the first time in aviation history. But we have to wait and see.
@@timhardman4764 The tapes should tell us if the controller advising the pilot or issuing control instructions. If they were control instructions I would not expect to hear "go around". I would expect to hear something like "approach clearance canceled, climb to xxx feet, and fly heading xxx". "Go around" doesn't tell the pilot where to go and a competent controller is trained to issue a positive control instruction. Unless he was just offering advice, the controller should have issued the instruction more forcefully the second time preceded by the word "immediately".
If the controller was merely advising the pilot he doesn't bear any responsibility for the pilot's mishandling of the aircraft. If he was issuing control instructions he should have been more forceful. I don't see why the controller do do that if there were no traffic sequencing issues.
Only if he was flying Concorde would he have been going cold enough on that approach.
Juan, it is truly a shame that U-Tube demonetizes video's like yours. Your channel is educational and factual and should be treated as such but there is something very wrong at U-Tube.
I found MARVI on the outdated plate you showed. It is the first location shown on the glideslope BEFORE the ILS with a approach heading 075* and a 8000' flight level
That is an amazing sequence you have discribed. What is the maximum gear extension speed?
250 knots...the flaps -much less.
The system wouldn’t allow gear extension even though they commanded it. They thought their gear was down and in their haste they ignored the master caution.
@@blancolirio Juan have you directly addressed the specific sequence of the operation of the gear extension when activated when the plane is traveling at a speed above the max speed (240 knots ? or about that) for gear deployment? Specifically, if the pilot uses the gear down lever above 240 knots, will the gear deploy automatically when the airspeed drops below the threshold (let's say 220 knots) or does the down gear lever have to be reset and redeployed on the Airbus to get the gear down even though the airspeed is in the allowable gear down speed range. I don't think I have heard a definitive answer to this question, just speculation. It seems strange the system would require a reset and redeploy. But the gear did not automatically deploy at the runway threshold while the plane was traveling at 210 knots and still airborne and in the allowable airspeed deployment range. Thanks and I just watched you TOI T1 rides. I'd love to do that ride but my group of geezers don't get that technical on our loaded down heavy DR650's. I'd have to buy and then setup an EXC 350 or similar specialty bike and then sell it after the ride. I think I have the physical ability and skills to ride those sketchy single track traverses but I'm untested when executing these maneuvers when the risk and the costs (in $$$ and bodily harm) is high. A recovery by chopper to a hospital just isn't an option for me unfortunately in addition to ruining my buddy's ride. I'm still very tempted though.
@@timhardman4764 It is not completely certain they never deployed the gear.
An alternate scenario is that they deployed it, found they were too high at the threshold and decided to go around, retracted the gear, but were not pulling up fast enough and still hit the runway.
Of course that will be stored in the FDR (and possibly CVR when "gear up" is called after "go around" and before the noises of the runway strike are heard)
@@Rob2 Agreed. That's a possibility but I would bet it is the least likely of the 3. It's too bad there is no video of the approach to engine touch down. But we will have all the facts in due time.
MARVI replaced with MAKLI
That explains it. Thanks Howard.
@@silverstar3670 It just means that a named GPS waypoint (MARVI) was replaced with another (MAKLI) at the same location, or very close to it.
i found MAKLI on foreflight, it’s about 15NM 74degrees magnetic from the karachi VORDME
I am from Karachi, yes Makli is a nearby town of Karachi about the same distance you have mentioned.
Is it possible this pilot has done this type of approach previously?
That was discussed in the early days of this tragedy. I believe a few people suggested the answer may be yes.
Don Moore He was drunk. They just don’t won’t to say anything. He’s not white
@@cincoy3679 don't bring you race problems into this.
I suggested that people with access to archived FlightRadar24 data do an analysis on a large number of final approaches to see if that type of landing is more common.
Cin Coy sucks to be white these days ? Aightt..
Good call on waiting for monetization from TH-cam. Seems entirely reasonable on your part.
Makli Necropolis.
Makli Necropolis is one of the largest funerary sites in the world, spread over an area of 10 kilometres near the city of Thatta, in the Pakistani province of Sindh. The site houses approximately 500,000 to 1 million tombs built over the course of a 400 year period.
Nicely explained & appreciated always.
Thanks Juan for another interesting update. I can't help thinking that the most likely answer is normally the simplest one. In this case, it appears to be a depressing case of terrible pilot error and/or overconfidence. When this tragedy first came to light I was entertaining all sorts of wacky ideas and explanations. Now I have a guilty minded morbid fascination to hear the cockpit voice recorder and the interaction between the left and right seats during this decent.
It is looking more and more like another tragic case of get-there-itis. American Airlines 965 crash of 1995 was another tragic case of get-there-itis.
WARHAMSTER - No morbid fascination, but your inherent need to learn and get to the facts of this incident. In my ATC career, I have played back tapes of incidents and accidents many times, to just to get all the facts. At the end we learned something.
I wouldn’t event attempt this landing on my flight sim. It looks like a classical case of get-down-itis but why?
Stephen O'Connell - Maybe pilot had celebration plans for end of Ramadan and the start of Eid al-Fitr? Speculation of course.
You just gotta to do a quick stall-spin. No big deal.
Just make sure you keep it under that sound barrier when you touch down.
It's like a train driver who forgot to stop at a station and put on the emergency brake!
Airlines may pressure pilots into avoiding go-arounds, so to keep a "clean" record as far as the airline is concerned there might be a strong motivation to not miss the landing. I think the pilots got so busy in the cockpit trying to shed height and speed they ignored a master alarm for over speed with flaps. 250 knots ground speed during a steep decent is pretty close to the 260 knot airspeed limit for lowering gear, so I'm wondering if they also caused a problem where the gear did not extend, but then missed this important thing because they assumed it was just a continuation of the over speed warning (dingdingdingding...). They may have attempted to extend landing gear during the steepest descent as a way to reduce speed (which didn't work, obviously).
As they crossed the runway threshold they would have got a "too low, gear" warning and it's probably at that point they attempted to throttle up and go around but they were already in a high speed rapid sink towards the runway. The real questions are why the pilots missed the correct descent path as given to them thirty miles out, and what the real reason was that they decided to compromise safety for the sake of getting down in one move.
So, I'm only guessing, but airline policy to penalise go-arounds may be a factor, confounded by other issues such as overconfidence making the pilots fly the plane like it's a fighter, lack of knowledge of the maximium gear down speed (training), first flight after lockdown etc. As usual (and as I've said previously) the factors that set this up where probably in place before the plane even left Lahore.
Airbus have reviewed the FDR data (apparently) and have NOT issued any advisory about maintenance or defects, so it looks like they think the plane was completely operational before it hit the runway at Karachi.
Love your accuracy and obvious real knowledge of what your saying.
Hi Juan. Thanks for the update. MAKLI is the holding fix on the ILS Y approach for 25 L. Can send a screenshot of the approach plate from JeppFD pro if you have an email. Edit: It’s the same point as position MARVI that you show on the out-of-date chart.
Did the pilot have a history flying for the military? His descent sounds a lot like the evasive landings performed by C-17s and C-130s in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Thinking the same here but this is way over the top to end well
No, I watched Interviews of family members of both pilots on Pakistani TV. Both were civilians. The captain started his flying career in general aviation as a flight instructor.
Could be a cultural problem of seniority of the captain and a failure to make or accept a challenge from the 'more junior' copilot or controller.
@@Rich-on6fe it is probably that, we had a airblue flight crash in islamabad the captain was a cocky ahole who disregarded everything the FO said they ended up crashing into a mountain, If we had addressed that crash correctly this may have not happened.
Sounds legit. I was guessing he would have slept before decent procedure or was simply ignorant. But he could have been employed from military.
Sounds like the pilot was landing that plane like he was flying a F-16 fighter jet then forgot about the landing gear. I wonder if this pilot has a history of doing this type of stuff.
cool2180 I think a guy could limit the investigation of this accident to what this crew did in the time between the end of Ramadan and the time of impact!
I dont think they forgot but its likely (my view) that their air speed was beyond 250knots all the time and the a320 does not bring down the gear to prevent damage and unless the speed is less than 250 it will keep chiming and hold the gear up. And this is what likely happened here.
cool2180 More like an F-14, those carrier jocks slam on the deck somewhat!
In an earlier video, someone that knew the pilot described his record. He wasn't a military pilot, so this was likely out of his ability to keep under control.
cool2180 - It could be a company thing. A PIA ,747 pilot forgot to lower his gear for landing!
Juan you rock.you explain everything so well.
Makli is an approach fix on the approach to 25L. There is a published holding and the assigned altitude is 3000.
If the landing gear down is attempted above 250 knots will the gear come down if the airspeed is reduced to a normal landing speed?
From what I've read the answer is no. The gear handle must be raised and lowered again to make the gear extend. This would make sense because you probably don't want the gear to suddenly extend automatically all by itself.
Yes. Plenty of pilots confirm this on various web sites.
@@joevignolor4u949 So they probably lower the gear above legal airspeed and did not realize it was not down until they were on the runway.
John Phillips despite the warning of the master warning alarm and the GPWS
@@johnd01 They were getting an alarm in the cockpit that was heard on the ATC tapes, which should have alerted them that the gear was not down. Then for some still unknown reason they seemed to have ignored it. The whole episode is very strange.
I think I am hearing that the speed was so fast that the the computer was not allowing the gear to extend. Am I correct?
Yep, >260 KN, failsafe - no lowering of gear.
And the flaps could not be fully extended as well, do to similar failsafe computer system. Meaning the pilot was not going to slow that plane down.
correct ! one call, and not recomendation,
„Go around“
would have been a good choice, if not the only one.
chris marek - Chris, who would make this call, The Radar controller or the Tower Controller? A radar controller would never have the need to use it, unless he was told by the Tower, for example, to an aircraft executing a PAR approach, and not on tower frequency.
A Radar controller, can only suggest or recommend vectors for descent, the pilot has the last say as to what he does.
Super appreciate your effort to pronounce all the names of places correctly
I had a similar situation when I was working as a Tower controller in Hong Kong,An Air India was transferred to me on 07L ILS at about 6 miles.I looked at the Radar screen in the tower and he was indicating at 6000ft.First thing I said was go around,although I think he just levelled off as he was still above the missed approach altitude.This is almost identical but the Air India lived to fight another day.
Not flight 812 tho.
john mcconville I’m most surprised that a CLK approach controller would have handed it on to you in that condition ......
I would love to know the pilots flying record.
They hire people they should not hire. Just like in the USA. You passed 2. Great. Hired.
Their system is set-up differently than ours. They have a tribal promotion and hiring method that does not look at experience, skill or merit. In This case the computer would have succeeded.
Also I would love to know any record of that pilot being warned by official letter previously due his previous reckless flying which may have resulted in safe landings but still disobeying SOPs. And i'd also love to know the reason the control tower never warned the pilot on his first approach when he must have clearly seen the landing gears not deployed. In short, ALL the parties involved are to be blamed. For what they are getting their salary?
The pilots record will be included in the final accident report, but that can take up to 18 months.
17000 hours for captain i think, and about 3000 in the a320
Always a pleasure Juan!
“MAKLI” 15.1 Nm from Rwy 25L threshold. ILS or LOC Y 25L, OPKC
What was happening before the decent...sleeping?
could be..
Pilot is on roja ( Ramadan) ,, so 90 percent chance is ur true
praying to allah probably
How would they descend if they were asleep. ATC give them permission to descend, if they were sleeping they wouldn’t respond
May be similar to Air India flight 812 - no fasting then.
Nothing about no landing gear? That would seem to be a small issue.
Juan has covered the landing gear issue in previous posts on this subject. Check them out.
Likely they did not notice that the landing gear did not deploy (due to overspeed), as their master caution alarm was already sounding all the time and they weren't taking notice of the individual alarm messages on the ECAM anymore.
this is a report of what atc saw, we already know the gear didn't come down because too fast
Just bad pilots, how failed to fly their plane properly
@@Rob2 Thank you for the response. Mainly I was referring to the tower report not having a reference to the gear not being down.
I positively enjoy the way you say Karachi. Nice analysis. Very informing.
Transition Altitude is used for departure climb out. Transition Level is for terminal descent. You set 29.92in/1013mB on the barometric altimeter when passing transition altitude on climb and set local altimeter setting passing the transition level on descent.
there's "hot and high", but I think we need a new phrase to cover these extremes :(
Re-entry?
Except “hot and high” in aviation refers to the landing zone being high temperature (thermally hot) and high altitude (i.e. both leading to thin air, so reduced performance) not high speed (colloquially “hot”) and the aircraft approach being high above the field/slope. I like the “reentry” suggestion though :)
@@TyphoonVstrom Not far off. The Space Shuttle had a glide slope of 20° in the final approach. They hammered down from 10,000 ft AGL at 7.5 miles out - but even they had to flare out early and had wheels down at 100 ft AGL and 1,100 ft out with a landing speed of ~220 mph.
Sideslip - I have used the term "Re-Enter". We had an entry point into downwind, aircraft about to join, would report it and based on traffic already established on downwind we would instruct the aircraft to "Join downwind" or "Re-Enter". This was strictly used for spacing. In the incident above, the controller does not have the authority to break off the approach unless there is a conflict with other traffic or an unsafe airport condition. The controller may suggest "vectors for descent", I certainly would have, but it is up to the pilot to accept or deny this "suggestion". The pilot is ultimately responsible for the aircraft, this has long been established, though some people would have others jump in and fly the aircraft for the pilot.
How about kamikaze?
Why's TH-cam not allowing monetization?
Because they are greedy and they attempt to classify this channel as not original content, even though it is basically a technical news channel on the subject of aviation.
I thought they automatically demonetized where it was a subject that conspiracy theorists were interested in - like airline disasters.
The bots can't work out whether a particular video is conspiracy theory or not but they can work out if it contains some of the same keywords as a conspiracy theory.
Unfortunately It's the human reviewers here at YT de-monetizing my content.
MAKLI is a fix 25 58.6N/67 28.6E Tried to screenshot and put here but it won’t. Great content!
Mr. Brown, looking at you i see that you can take a pilot out of a plane but cant take the plane out of the pilot, if i didnt know you were a pilot i would have concluded and confirmed it just on observation after 1 minute, profession and trades sink in to our personality after 25 years of doing our job, love your videos !