Does JONAH Have DBD's Worst Lore? | Dead by Daylight Lore Deep Dive
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Welcome, friends and foes, Survivors and Killers. Today we'll be looking into the Survivor for the Portrait of a Murder Chapter, Jonah Vasquez, and why his story so gravely disappointed me.
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Loved the use of the 12th Doctor's War speech.
Do you feel like there's anything BHVR could do to redeem Jonah at this point?
She the same as the demo dog same body
The ring girl has deomdog code in her too ;)
You would think he would go with pin head the box 📦
I’m sorry Pixel, but what warcrime did Jonah commit? All he did was decode the message, and even then the rebels purposely gave coordinates of civilians. Jonah is by no means a saint, but he’s not this monster the video tried to portray him as
The only point of interest I could potentially see is that Jonah is a tool to stoke Carmina’s rage. Here is someone who represents everything that made Carmina suffer being treated as a comrade to the rest of the survivors which would explain the previous caring and gentle Carmina’s murderous rage. Still reaching a bit there on it though.
I totally agree. It’s like Oni and Yui, as she is a physical antithesis to all his tradition values
Maybe something they could do with Jonah is explore how deep the black hands reach within organizations like the C.I.A are? Like some of the higher ups might be dedicated cult members.
@@jeffythesomething8772 I don’t think they need to explore that someone has their talons in the CIA in jonahs lore as I expected the Black Vale to already have their talons in them by the time Elodies bio mentioned it. But the Black Vale being involved in the organization is a given by this point
@@ramsescult8863 yes, but obviously to a much more egregious level in Potrait of A Murder, considering that Jonah is literally on the side of the people who viciously mutilated her
@@jeffythesomething8772 well now it’s been confirmed, the guy that recruited Doctor into CIA literally made the Dredge for the entity
I enjoy how much of the background footage is Jonah taking Ls
that's just me being bad at Survivor
I was aware from the start that Jonah being a CIA operative was harmful and deeply hypocritical in relation to Carmina's status as a victim of the Pinochet regime, but I never really took the time to properly analyse just how awful the message his character represents really is. While most likely by accident, BHVR pretty much created a pro-war, pro-imperialism message in the form of a survivor we're supposed to sympathise with. Jonah in many ways is more despicable than the majority of the games killers (and certainly has all of them beat in terms of body count), and presenting him as someone we're meant to support is inexcusable. At least Yun-Jin was clearly supposed to be morally ambiguous
That's just like how they scuffed the Nurse.
She shouldn't be a Eugenecist (read: the most terrible kind of person)
She should be killing people out of mercy, not hatred and disgust.
And with Yun-Jin we can also see how she became that way due to her and her sister losing everything when they were children, so she didn't want that to happen again, even if it means she ignores that her main performer is a brutal killer so that she keeps everything.
If you think about it, Jonah should be the Killer and Carmina the survivor.
Having complex characters is kinda good. Also he clearly regrets his actions. These kinds of people exist.
Yun-Jin isn’t even morally ambiguous, in her tome she was just expertly manipulated and constantly sleep-deprived. She didn’t ignore Trickster’s suspicious behavior or possible leads to him being a killer, she literally couldn’t tell reality from a fever dream. If anything she’s a very caring and likeable person that ended up not preventing a bunch of murders because she sympathized with the wrong person.
Well now I don’t feel like a friend, foe, survivor, or killer. I just feel empty.
No sitting around the campfire, and talking about Dead by Daylight...
no
And here I was thinking that Jonah was just a math teacher..
Could have been best. Would have Mained him.
What makes me more annoyed with Jonah is that I see the skeleton of a really interesting concept. The story of a academic and smart man who is mysteriously sent a puzzle to solve and gets obsessed over trying to solve it and how that interacts with his life, how it damages it and then how when he finally solves it... his fate is sealed to be stuck within the entity's realm.
I love how bhvr already had a story in the game before the artist that shows how shady the CIA are. Doc's story already reinforces that the CIA are not very Moral and have a shady agenda
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As the son of a South American parent I'm really glad that this is being brought to light. The second that I saw she was from wartime Chile and he was a CIA agent I pretty much felt instantly sick to my stomach and it was made worse when I read it fully and saw how they tried making him seem like a good character. I have no idea how this got past the brainstorming phase. I think it would've been less of a slap in the face if he wasn't tied to this chapter specifically but even then it's so icky feeling.
Yes... because there is no possibility that good people with no influence worked for CIA during Pinochet's regime, everything is always black and white. There's no room for grey areas.
But the reason that this is so much of a reach is that Jonah is a CIA Agent in the present day and has literally nothing to do with the actions that the CIA of Carmina's time took or failed to take.
I'm from Northern Ireland and you are a lot like the people who want to hold the PSNI (Police Service Northern Ireland) responsible for the actions and collusion of the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary). The British Army did commit atrocities in Northern Ireland in the 60's and 70's, between the Ballymurphy and Springhill massacres and God knows what else Northern Ireland has a very violent history a lot of which was caused by the British Army. But we still recognise the heroic acts of people like Michael Willetts, a British Army Soldier who choose to be a human shield when people who probably hated him were victims of a bomb attack. Jeered by locals a few hours before he died he's now recognised as hero by those same people.
You've made a lot of assumptions about me from a single comment about a fictional character in a video game.
@@bibbitybobbityboom3724 pay him no mind. he's probably projecting. lol
@@bibbitybobbityboom3724 - No... I didn't, I made one assumption... but it is based on how you presented yourself.
@@MistarZtv - Or, you're an idiot that thinks painting others in a negative light is winning an argument.
Ok, here's my idea for a rewrite:
Jonah still loves numbers and puzzles. He does NOT receive any dumb puzzle about his prophesized entry into the Entity's realm. INSTEAD, he notices throughout historical study a leitmotif of numbers popping up. Why does 7 show up in both Judaism and Buddhism (I don't know if it does, I'm just spitballing here)? Why do certain sequences of numbers, cleverly changed to seem different to all but the most mathematically brilliant minds, pop up throughout all cultures and all times? Jonah doesn't know. Until one day he tunes in to a crackpot conspiracy podcast which postulates the existence of the Black Vale, rattling off a string of all too familiar numbers. This can't be a coincidence. So Jonah gets a job at the CIA as a codebreaker, hoping to ferret out the existence of the Blavk Vale. At last, he comes across a lead: a rebel group using an RSA encrypted cipher featuring a Black Vale string of numbers. Bingo. It looks like they're about to topple the government. Jonah can't allow this, reports it to the CIA expecting action to happen. But then, the civilians get bombed. This doesn't make sense, he gave them the correct coordinates, unless.....the CIA is ALREADY being controlled by the Blavk Vale. Now Jonah is a double agent, trying to worm around and destroy the Black Vale from the inside. But then they catch onto him. He books it to Chile, hides in an abandoned ghost town and then gets swept up by the Entity. Now he seeks a way out like Talbot Grimes: pillaging any records in the Realm he can find for clues to escape. Numbers held significance to the Black Vale, the Entity's servants, after all. His manipulation of the sacred numbers allows him to harness powers in the Entity's Realm like blessing totems or drawing stamina from the environment. Idk, it's cheesy, but I feel it's a much more reasonable explanation for his perk powers than.....no explanation at all.
It sounds good, but it still doesn't really make Jonah question whether bombing anyone in the first place is even a good thing, and you'd still be making him unambiguously good with him directing the CIA to bomb the rebels and basically side with the same people who are responsible for Carmina's torture.
I think if a rewrite was done it would need to not only explore his guilt but make it worse with the realization that he's condemning innocents death in general Spec Ops style with the controversial White Phosphorus scene for example and really show how this guilt and dreadful epiphany have been eating away at his emotional and mental state and make the donations come from the CIA's own pocket and he goes from asset to liability to target.
Also maybe the Black Veil could also be financial supporters in the CIA as an attempt to milk more killers for the Entity.
@@diddles3383 Well, yeah, he sides with them ORIGINALLY, but he comes to grips with the fact that they're evil and does a 180.
mucho texto
I think this would actually be a really good fix for his story that makes a lot of sense and fits in both with the larger scale of dbd's lore and who they wanted Jonah to be as a character. fucking congrats i guess
I feel the need to point out a detail here: "It was discovered too late that the messages were decoys."
The rebels sent out fake messages to shift the aim from themselves to innocent civilians.
I feel like a lot of people overlook the actual potential Portrait Of A Murder has in terms of Carmina and Jonah. Pretty much every other chapter before it has been very clearly made with the intent of the survivor being the morally higher character than the killer. But what I dont think people remember is that there are people in the world who do horrible things like what Jonah did and get away with it like he did. So in a shocking twist, the moral high ground between Carmina and Jonah is reversed so that Carmina is the freedom fighter turned supernatural monster and Jonah is the villain of the story who you want to see be punished for what he did.
3:35, they don't explain why he specifically was the one receiving the numbers and why the black vale targeted him. Its the same as why the artist had the crows protecting her, like why did the crows chose her, why was she special compared to other people. I'm not the best with lore, but thats what I have to say
"hurr durr the entity chose them" is the best we can hope for but with no "why" its still meaningless
I fucking hate when people do that for story telling. It tells everyone you can't make a good plot point without hand fisting it into shit.
oh my god its iron tarkus
Reading the beginning of her lore on the wiki, it says that she fed the crows. I imagine that's why?
Yun Jin works for the villains too. She ignored the murders and only faced it when Trickster gave her no choice when he was to kill her.. I feel like she’s a Bad Person too
Sure, but DBD doesn’t force the concept of Yun Jin being a good person down your throat like it does Jonah
look at the theming and flavor text of fast track and self preservation on yun-jin, the game is very aware of the type of person she is and doesn't frame her in nearly as positive or innocent a light as jonah
Would love a Yun-Jin, Hag & Skull Merchant cat fight on who's the biggest B*ch in the Fog! 🤣🤣🤣
6:01 is where I guess his lore goes wrong; instead of using CIA funds to fix the CIA (and his own) mistakes, he "transfers" i.e. steals money from the rebels, without thinking, hey, I was wrong about the codes, maybe I'm wrong about the CIA too.
Edit: yeah I knew it was Jonah's involvement with the CIA that was the issue. But I think they could have done something interesting by showing the complicity of supposedly "good people" in horrific actions.
Honesty, the best way to salvage the story would have been making him a defector: have him start as someone who blindly follows the CIA, and have the bombing be a turning point that opens his eyes to the brutality of the organization he works for. Have him leak the details of the bombings to the public and go into hiding, turn him into an enemy of the CIA who spends his life atoning for his crimes by overturning the very people he used to work for. It could even relate to the main plot about the numbers, perhaps he goes into hiding in Chile and the day he goes missing is the day the CIA track him down.
@@stolen_light3751 exactly
Except the rebels purposely gave him the wrong info
@@stolen_light3751 how boring
You missed one key point of Jonah's story. Jonah's connection to the Artist is that he is taken at the same time as her. The numbers coordinate to the exact place and time that the Artist is taken and Jonah piggybacks off her portal to the entity
A very good catch! I haven't seen anyone else notice that before, and had hoped that would come up in Pixel's video, but essentially he just focused on "CIA bad." There are some cool moments in the story, though it definitely had more room for improvement, especially with Carmina's.
He does math, easiest F tier of my life
Same reason why I hate wraith
@@wishfulbutton6676 wraith lore is not bad it’s good Jonah is Dogshit
Y'know, they had a great opportunity to introduce a sort of Edward Snowden type of character. Jonah could have been the one to reveal what the CIA had done and what they were actively doing in Chile. A man originally dedicated to his nation and its cause, now turned against it after seeing the dark reality of what he was contributing to. But they didn't do that...
Thats literally apart of his story, him attempting to right his wrongs only for him to be targeted and nearly killed by the CIA as a ploy to threaten him back into obedience, which he complied to because he’s human and everyone deals with the stress of a death threat differently, besides this is only his starting lore we dont know the full story of his character in the slightest
thats exactly what his story is...
Yeah Man, then I could have Mained him.
7:14
I recall seeing a theory that said that the crows present in Chile are actually part of The Entity (especially the ones that accompanied Carmina)
I mean, it's obvious. Crows are said to be the eyes of the Entity in trials, it makes sense that the Entity plays the long game using its crows to shape Carmina into what it wants. Similar to how it turned the stubborn Talbot into a submissive killer for it by throwing him into the void for who knows how long before he caves in to his addiction and swears that 'He'll tear the survivors limb from limb' for more flowers.
Current tome suggests this is the case as no one but her could see the crows
i think the most depressing thing about the story we got for jonah is the fact that they could’ve gone so many better routes with more complexity. like either make him more morally ambiguous a la yun-jin, or make his story one of redemption. as someone literally from fresno, predatory recruitment of students by the military is a huge issue here, and they especially target our large latino communities. they could’ve had jonah join the military & be recruited by the CIA basically fresh out of high school, using his youth to manipulate him like so many other recruits have been, and then over time have him learn some terrible CIA secrets or something & turn him into a whistleblower. hell, since they mentioned the black vale being an international organization with members in positions of power all over the globe (similar to the idea of the illuminati) maybe have him discover that the black vale has infiltrated the CIA & have been using him to find the entity’s enemies, or to find crossover spaces between our reality & the entity’s (similar to haddie’s story). that would explain how he would stumble across the graveyard where carmina was murdered. idk, there’s just so much more they could’ve done, especially if they wanted to make him sympathetic.
I think what they TRIED to do, was an uno reverse. We have always had the crazy, psycho killer and a good or maybe morally imbiguous killer. I think this time, they wanted to make a more good/morally imbiguous killer paired with a bad, almost psycho survivor. The "war is bad" parts etc that are supposed to be "good", I feel like are there especially to draw out the contrast of Jonah's almost villainous character. Meanwhile the artist is the way she is, almost as a result of Jonah's evil. I think they tried to do something REALLY interesting, but failed horribly in the end
The idea of a psycho survivor and a morally "good" killer is pretty smart and give something new in the game, but they've failed due to the political context of the chapter. A political view could be interesting, but they were clumsy with the morality of each characters, and with the involontary "pro-war" message that came with both backgrounds :T
But I got hope for greaters greys survivors in the next chapters :p
@@funnyredrum like I said; they TRIED. But the interesting part is that it's clear they did A LOT of research about all this yet they still decided to do the survivor's lore the way it is now. So I wonder what exact thought process went behind it.
what makes you think they even tried? like pixel says at 12:05, he's treated as an unambiguously good character. you're defending behavior for criticism they really deserve.
I did as you said and paused the video the second I heard the error in Jonah’s story. It’s at the very beginning.
Who the hell likes math??
LOL just because you and I don't doesn't mean others also don't. There are researchers/professors/professionals who work with math.
My thing is, Jonah isn't his employer. I don't hate Jonah for the actions of his employer. It adds moral gray areas but I don't hate him directly.
Furthermore Jonah is in the CIA in the present, he likely wasn't even born when Carmina's story takes place... we don't hold the son responsible for the sins of the father.
The CIA has always been, and always will l be, horrendous.
@@goawayleavemealone2880 We should hold the pig responsible for choosing to move into a pigsty.
@dr.archaeopteryx5512 - OK then Dr, let's hold you responsible for everything wrong with the Healthcare Service.
@@goawayleavemealone2880 Oh I'm not actually a Doctor, just stealing valour.
And I mean even if, I would probably not be a Doctor of Medicine, anyway.
And if I was, Doctors of Medicine in real life are meant, with the risk of punishment if they don't, to at least pretend to help people. Some scumbags and outright monsters using the job as a cover of course exist, but they're usually penalized by the community and renounced by their colleagues if noticed. There is no subgroup of evil doctors who are allowed to do war and hate crimes and receive no punishment worse than their senior officers telling them to knock it off and maybe putting them on paid leave if the press is sniffing at the doorstep. There is no doctors that go out of their way to murder journalists for sniffing at the doorstep, either.
And I mean if there was, I would probably go out of my way not to be part of a subgrouping of doctors that have always worked as rabid dogs for imperialism willing to brutalize and abuse civilians both abroad and at home on the whims of higher ups for shits and giggles.
And I mean if I was that kind of doctor, we wouldn't be having this conversation, because I'd have either long quit my job or coated my office in pink mist if I, for whatever reason, wasn't allowed to resign and was forced to remain a living brown spot on the very concept of humanity for an extended period of time.
And I mean if I for some reason was in such a position and did not want to resign or similar, I think overall, the answer you see, is pretty clearly, that, especially if you read all this, you need to stop licking boots, go outside, and touch grass. If you got here, why did you even bother reading past the first paragraph honestly. Why would you expect a serious answer to such a dishonest and stupid question. Of course, I don't actually expect you to be here, I am just using your question as an excuse to dump an overly long reply on you that's entirely me venting out my frustrations about ignorant weirdos with terminal political apathy. I probably shouldn't have bothered, this was never gonna about anything but petty mudslinging, and I was never here for anything but snide remarks, but you know, gotta scream into the void sometimes. If you read this far, You're in a coma, this is the only way for us to reach you. Please know that we love you. Don't bother too hard with trying to wake up, we asked before, the staff will keep you safe, and we will be back to visit. Get better soon, my child.
As I listen there's one thing I'm unclear on: Jonah directed the bombs as he did because of it coordinates he found turned out to be decoys, right? Who set up the decoys? If it was the rebels, it would at least explain why Jonah targeted them for his theft. In his mind, they'd be just as culpable as he himself was.
Because you asked for the timestamp, when we think Jonah's Character-concept fell apart:
3:22 Right at the beginning, the first sentence. To me, there is nothing interesting about a character who's sole concept is that he's good at math. Math is a means to an end - the answer to a mathematical problem can be interesting but not the math itself. It should never be a focus - if the entire concept focuses around the fact that a guy figured out numbers that led him to his life choices, that's a laughable concept.
Of course there are probably different, more high-brow things you mean (like Jonah being a CIA-Agent and it basically glorifying the meddling of the US in other governments); but for me, this concept alone is a deal breaker. There's nothing interesting about math itself.
I love math tho...something that gets me hyped is a good mathematical problem.
I think it's a concept that could have legs if explored as a wider faucet of his personality: present him as a Sherlock Holmes-type character, deeply analytical and highly intelligent at the cost of being deeply antisocial and robotic. Someone so deeply obsessed with the order and logic inherent to Maths that he finds it difficult to relate to the chaos and randomness of real life
Well i must say in the USA, we actually are behind in terms of education in mathematics compared to the world. My calculus professor broke the news to us and i was not surprised lol
I hate to be a fussy pedant and i'm not defending Jonah by any means - but mathematics at a high level really doesn't have any purpose beyond just being interesting for mathematicians. It may be boring to you, but there are plenty of mathematicians, myself included who aren't war criminals and could be happy solving away at a math problem for years, even decades.
Come to think of it having Jonah as a professor who specialized in cryptography but refused to work for a government agency would have made much more sense given the chapter.
This you said make me thing of another character that has math as an important part of their story: Cady from Mean Girls (ironic we have to compare a grow up man from an horror game with a teenager of a teen movie but hear me out).
From the beggining to the end we get a lot of situations where maths are an important part of Cady's life, and not just because she's intelligent but also for a personal reason, she likes them because the numbers and symbols are the same in all the world which ties to her story of moving from Africa to the US, it's something familiar in a new enviroment.
Along the story we see how she uses math not only as a mean to get stuff she wants (catching attention of the guy she likes, the extra credit to compensate her exams), but also as a way to show how she changes from hanging out with the Plastics, they think the Math team is boring and social suicide, and Cady fakes to be bad at math to get the guy she wants, yet she still realizes his wrong answers when she's playing dumb.
This math interest helps her all to the end of the movie, and it works because we know the journey she went and how she grew for her actions, we saw how she started as a nice decent person, had an up of popularity and a downfall because how much of a Plastic she became, and her resolution where she learned and redeamed herself for what she'd done.
And again, it's kinda off to compare a man who commited warcrimes with a girl who was mean for popularity and the worst she did was lying about someone selling drugs, but she's at least a better "math enthusiast" character than Jonah, at least Cady has a character we can follow and want to see how she resolves stuff
Jonah is just a good person caught in bigger game. It's easy to have all the information and make moral judgements but it's not like data analyst is being informed about how dirty the work he's doing actually is. He was told he's helping his country against evil terorists so he did, if your boss tells you to do something you usually don't launch an investigation of the consequences that might have.
Also, looking at CIA during a Cold War as the absolute villains means you are skipping over the other side of the conflict, KGB. Ignoring their, even more ruthless, involvment is like concluding Allies were the villains of WW2, listing all the destruction and people they killes as if Third Reich, Japan and Italy were throwing teddy bears. Overthrowing foreign governments with disgusting actions was the game of the day. CIA could watch KGB do it and lose or do it too.
yeah literally this. i have seen so many people call jonah a horrible murderer because he was tricked into killing innocent civilians. like, what? and the dude even immediately tries to make up for the devastation he caused yet people will still label him a villain
It's amazing that BHVR thought anything about this story was good. The world is not a binary "good or evil" story.
I feel like the only way to save Jonah with trying to push the good guy motive would be a story cut after he was sent back home to the CIA, having him still deal with the guilt and look more and more into the horrors of the CIA, until he is disgusted with both his job and himself, putting his job to the side more and more, until he leaves to go to that forsaken number and be taken into the realm. Idk what else they could do with him, being honest, without outright making him worse.
What if his tome goes back on his lore and says that the CIA wrote it for him and the tome looks into his real story and emotions that would be pretty I teresting
Idk, owning lots of restaraunts and tv shows is a pretty cool background
"Anyone who poisons Henry Kissinger gets a seat at my table in Walhalla"
quote of the year tbh
I'm pretty much in the corner of "I'd like more morally ambiguous or downright selfish survivors (I love Yun-Jin), but BHVR needs to pick what side they're on." When it comes to Jonah, I'd rather they just make him an uncontestable shitbag who just feels bad the "blew up the wrong people." It'd at least keep him interesting. Right now, he doesn't have much otherwise, and the lore as it is is pretty bad. That being said, I feel bad for every South American player who was excited to see a South American survivor, only to end up with this given to them. Oof.
i never realised he was south american
the game already have a south America survivor, Ace he is from Argentina
pd but yeah more south American survivors would be really cool
We have Carlos, Thalita and Renato now, yay!
4:40 - 4:45
you CAN'T tell me with a straight face that being good at math is ENOUGH to put you into the CIA, even if it was true
So Jonah is a survivor I like for one really dumb reason: I'm a math major who loves puzzles. So I kinda like him. That said, I really didn't feel like his Lore characterized him very well. I didn't really get a clear impression of his personality or anything like that other than "I have a puzzle I wanna solve". It wasn't a conflict I was invested in unlike say Yun Jin on the trail of the Trickster or Yui trying to survive a stalker. Jonah's lore didn't feel like anything more than Dwight getting lost in the woods and being taken by the Entity except with a couple of fancy government connections leading him to there. There's so many more interesting things that could've been done with a CIA agent codebreaker, and the lore didn't really take any opportunities to do any of those things.
Not to mention the math puns in his perk flavor texts are just absolutely dumb. Even by my standards.
I personally have a soft-spot for Jonah as well. I don’t like math, but admittedly numbers are pretty neat and can be applied to a lot of concepts.
Plus his shirt is top tier.
it feels very mean. being released alongside carmina feels mean and tone deaf in the best case scenario
and if you start walking down from best case to worst case, it feels so intentionally mean. it feels like there's no way someone didn't stop to think hey are we putting extreme pro-war, pro-CIA, pro-military rhetoric?
itfeels like such a spit in the face to their own other character :/
I'm really trying to see where you're coming from with this but I just dont get it.
I never saw it as painting the CIA as a good guy, or Jonah. Hell I actually like that Jonahs story gives a us a survivor that isnt inherently good by virtue of being a victim to the entity and killer. All your points through the story have been "The CIA agent is bad because he works for the CIA
Which
Yeah
The cia is a terrible organization and the agents are inherently bad to an extent by further their operations.
I dont see how the lore is the worst in the game because "An agent of an oppressive and bloodthirsty organization feels bad that he killed the wrong people."
Hell that seems extremely realistic. I could believe a CIA agent would feel bad and guilty for killing the wrong people. Jonah seems like a very common kind of person, especially in the government. Someone who is good at heart, doing bad things, because hes been lead to believe itll accomplish good.
It's bad because he was released right alongside Carmina, someone who was literally brutalised by people who worked with the CIA. We are literally shown in very graphic detail what kind of torture and pain Carmina went through, and then we have the survivor who works for and supports the CIA and is written to be an unquestionably good character, someone we're supposed to root and feel sorry for, despite the fact that he's on the side of villainy, the same side who is responsible for Carmina's suffering. How can you not understand just how fucked up this is?
@@diddles3383 thank you for parroting the videos points that I already addressed.
Yes
CIA bad
Jonah bad for working with CIA
How does that make his lore the worst I'm the game. I still dont see how the game makes him out to be an unquestionably good guy. Giving a bad guy a conscience for a split second doesnt make him an u questionably good person, otherwise half the killers are great people regardless of the murders.
Like I said in my comment, when I look at Jonah, I see a guy who's not inherently bad, doing horrible things with a horrible organization, because he believes itll achieve good things, like most military and cia agent.
Releasing him alongside carmina seems like a good thing even, breaking the mold of "killer and their new victim" with a "survivor and their indirect victim"
@@diddles3383 I've read through his, and all survivors lore pieces I've come across. Not once is jonah "unquestionably good" nor do they portray him as such, the only time hes portrayed as good is when he feels guilt over killing innocent people over his perceived enemy, before facing retaliation from his employer, and partially realizing his side isnt 100% good. Not once does the lore try to claim hes a saint.
I agree with this, although his story still needs a bit of a rewrite just in general imo
@@fluffybum204 yeah, but most of the lore does to be honest, because they arent that great at writing
FINALLY I HAVE BEEN WAITING ON THIS VIDEO!!! Ever since the Carmina one I've been so excited for the Jonah garbage fire.
Huh.. I never really looked at the lore closely. I knew Jonah was a CIA agent and he was a Numbers person, and I knew there was the accidental bombing and then the stealing money to pay for the rebuild. But I completely missed that it was from the Rebels he stole the money, and didn't even question that if they did bomb the right people he might've been chill with it. I kinda hope they do something to make him more likeable since design-wise I like him. Hell he became my main survivor because I think he looks cool, and I've been waiting for more costumes for him. But I dunno if I do wanna play him now
I feel you, Bro. Carlos or Renato for me, can't be Jonah.
I get all of u guys hate but...u miss the fact the rebel used a real place with innocent as a decoy message. The rebel could have used an actual decoy..empty cooridnates, an enemy outpost. Im not sayinv jonah is gulit free or CIA ( they endosed a regime) but the rebel gave him code to innocent townknow the enemy is killing ppl indiscriminately. Everyone was wrong but to jonah the rebel cause that error so he robbed them. In the grand picture yes it is bad but as a individual it is understandable
bro he's literally edward snowden
Warm regards from Tupelo Mississippi! I enjoy your videos very much. Thank you for the content and the hard work you put in.
I think it could be cool to have Jonah's lore be reworked a bit to make his motives more about his obsession with the numbers, making him trick himself into thinking that he is over them, and have him subconsciously focus on them to the point of ignoring the CIA's misdeeds, thinking that his obsession is worth it. Upon the bombing of the civilians, he calls his entire path to this point into question, and tries to use the CIA's power to pull from the rebel group and help the ones he bombed, expecting the CIA to notice if he pulls from them and not expecting the rebels to come out on top anyways. When he gets transferred to a new operation, he doesn't understand. He thinks he should have been killed. They found out, didn't they? He decides to abandon his job and go on the run. Maybe being in a position of power was never meant for his family. He doesn't know what the future holds, but there is something he has to do before anything else can happen. He follows the numbers, and gets taken just the same, but it is revealed who the numbers are from. The numbers are from Doctor Carter. He has developed a way to communicate with the outside, but only through encrypted ways. He is trying to find a way to bring more people into the fog, more subjects, and who has more power to aid him than the CIA? Jonah was a pawn to get the CIA to look into the Entity's realm.
Wait. 5:10, our guy literally almost uncovered the shadow government before the CIA told him to go elsewhere.
Why couldn't we have gotten that story, man? I love me some evil rich people horror
Your point kind of reminds me of Symmetra from Overwatch in a way. She works for a corrupt organization despite being a good person. Although his may be different in the way that Symmetra had no idea she was working for the bad guys until she was faced with the truth, but she didn't wanna betray the people that took her in.
1) Symmetra has no relevance to real life atrocities
2) The game clearly makes it obvious she's on the side of evil? Don't you remember, her corporation killed Lucio's dad. She is a villain in the lore...
I mean technically we don't know the morality of the rebels yet, nor do we know what he thought of them, there is still time to fix him
Yeah, assuming that some rebels in South America are undoubtedly "good guys" is naive at best. Plus, even if CIA have done some unjustifiable actions in the past, it doesn't mean that: a) their EVERY operation is evil, and b) Jonah is fully aware that they're doing something wrong.
Extremely well said!
I feel like a good place to take his lore is that he thinks that he is good but in reality his moral compass has been fucked due to the CIA.
Like he thinks he is in the moral one but in reality he is only causing more problems for the world. It kinda reminds me of people so allegiant to their country that the follow it's orders blindly.
But the story doesn't have enough nuance for that sort of interpretation. It would have been easy to say that he was a purely mathematical guy, apathetic about elements of the world that don't concern himself, and easily indoctrinated into the CIA's nationalistic views. But he does feel guilt and attempts to do redeem himself. The story just isn't written with enough depth for him to be a flawed but critical individual capable of change, which is why his lore seems overall supportive of his actions.
Just a good-indented but powerless man, messed up in the non-stoppable miseries and meaningless conflicts
The only real way I could think to make it work is the crows just being around Jonah more like the entity was like "yeah he's got the potential to be the next killer" but then decided not to for one reason or another, I mean he joined the cia, thats good enough reason for the entity to go "yeup, good enough killer for me"
But then in a tome you could add that he realized how bad the CIA was and defected causing the crows to leave him
Sure, he would still be the most tone deaf character ever made but at least he'd have SOMETHING
I think 4:46 was my moment lol. The fact that these are pretty clearly co-ordinates that he's just ignoring despite the fact that someone has been sending them to him THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE is so strange to me and just seems like they want it to be there for a Black Veil tie in.
Pixel Bush, have you ever considered making a video on the OG lore master Benedict Baker? BHVR just kind of forgot about him and left him to rot.
I main Jonah, and his lore is so disappointing. Wish they would've taken a little more time, on both his lore and his design. His default design really isn't that great.
In my opinion Jonah is one of the most underrated, misunderstood and interesting original survivors in DBD.
It’s funny how these topics about U.S history are basically completely ignored. As an American I didn’t know any of these incidents that the United States was involved in. Except for Castro.
As a Chilen myself. The intelligence of the CIA and the US in the dictatorship of Pinochet is far more complicated and nasty that what Sergio said.
It wasn't only support but a full operation (operation condor). There were economic, politic and military goals in mind. The intelligence of the regime were trained and indoctrinated through La Escuela de Las Americas. A militar antimarxist school who developed torture strategies with the help of nazi's german high ranks of the CIA. Colonia Dignidad was a torture center and phedophilic base owned by the hitler youth member Paul Schäfer. Other example is the militar Miguel Krassnoff, an antisemitic, racist, rapist and antimarxist who was part of the DINA ( National Intelligence Direction). There's a lot more, the economic intervention of the Chigaco Economics into the Catholic University of Santiago, using Chile as a guinea pig for the the implementation of Economic Neo-Liberalism of Milton Friedmman. The help of Margaret Tatcher in the conservative regime of politics. The Constitution of the 80's which writing was heavily influence by the ideology of Carl Schmitt, Franco's Fascism and Chatolic Conservadurism. The dictatorship killed, rapped, torture. Violated the human rights of not only marxist's, but children's, common people, minorities, jews, priestess of the chatholic liberation school,and until now they never payed a single crime. That blood is on the US hands. They supposedly did it for the freedom of the continent, and by that excuse they overthrow the democratic elected president, installed a autoritharian facism regime and violated the humans rights of many people who until now who's families don't have closure and justice. The worst part is that this is only the tip of the iceberg.
Thanks for the investigation and I'm sorry for any mistake. English is not my first languague.
Hugs my Chile Bro! Love, love, love from my India.
When bombs dropped on the wrong people it can also imply he felt bad that he killed innocent civilians.
I do appreciate the 10th doctors speech at 18:52
He my 4rd most want character to have a tome because his story could be good in my opinion 3nd deathslinger 2nd ghostface 1st jeff johansen I love the other 3 character lore I just want a tome skin of them
I don't really see anything inherently wrong with him being in the CIA if they had actually done something with that juxtaposition with Carmina. If they had used him being a part of the CIA as a way to give him an actual moral dilemma in relation to the struggle in Chile, it could have worked. It would even have been cool to have another survivor and killer that had intertwining lore, akin to the All-Kill chapter again.
But they didn't do that. It feels like they wanted to be brave and tackle a difficult subject, but chickened out at the last second and tripped over themselves to the point of making something so distasteful.
I think the point of Jonah is that he could be considered a dirtbag for only caring about the civilians he inadvertently killed after he found out about them. Sure, he was supposed to bomb a group of rebels and that made sense to him because it was his job. Without ignoring what the cia has done in the past, both good and bad, he was doing his job. End of story. To him, he did what he was supposed to do. There are so many people in the employ of the government that have had a hand in some dirt because it was their job. This happens. Jonah being a boring character notwithstanding, he’s a great example of how, sometimes, the good guys have a bad apple in their ranks. Yun-Jin is another example of a good person doing something bad.
Was binging the lore vids recently, and while no one poisoned him (far as I know), Henry Kissinger did finally kick the bucket and go to hell recently! Great vids, btw.
i was really bummed when i found out how boring his lore is especially when i found out he’s from Fresno which is about 40 minutes from my hometown. i was just really hoping for something cool but ended being disappointed
kinda off topic but it’s so weird to me when dbd includes killers like carmina who aren’t truly evil, so their murderous rage in the entity’s realm makes little sense especially considering how there wouldn’t be any shortage of actual psychos to recruit lol. that’s why I think the trapper’s story of getting tortured by the entity into killing survivors is stupid lol why wouldn’t the entity just pick actual murderers every time? Seems like an oversight tbh
Maybe because only certain individuals have the innate capacity for murder the entity desires, that or the entity is petty and would rather torture them than send them back
The Entity is dumb as f*ck! Michael, Pinnyhead and Pyramid will eventually destroy it, for they hold greater powers.
Honestly, Jonah is one of my favorite survivors. Mainly because I love the way he looks with his pajamas. 😍 I really love it 😍 like a lot 😍 and Jonah too 😍😍😍
His lore is shit tho
K
...ok anyways
Grubhub guy
Great video as always.
Honestly they think you're right I don't think there is much to do to fix a story without changing it.
A lot of the other characters that have flawed stories there's at least elements you could do to iron it out and give them better ones without fundamentally changing the core of the characters. As they're usually a problem with the potential wasn't realised.
If they do end up doing his tome lore I'm really hoping whoever got the grubby hands on Amanda's doesn't handle his ( her Saw lore and base Dead by daylight lore are excellent enough that I could just ignore the tome's existence I definitely can't say the same for Jonah).
I do hope when it comes to writing the characters that are really in need of a good redive like Feng Min and Carmina they go the route on and Trickster and make them even better while still keeping the themes. Not the route Amanda, Nea and Hag where just make the lore even worse
Just to add, 1964, the USA was behind the military coup in Brazil too.
ME, STARTING THIS VIDEO: Really, it doesn't matter what reasoning they give, I'm just never gonna vibe with Jonah because he's a CIA agent...
ME AT 8:03: (Nods approvingly)
I really miss when devs kinda just kept simple backstories for the survivors.
19:18 a good speech for a good moment, from a very good source
3:30 :) seriously it’s very bland and the numbers are just kinda there, and they are way too confusing and seem to not serve purpose, and the thing about the the where and when is just not plausible or believable, even in this universe
Edit: new survivor idea: an officer or detective who is investigating the disappearances of the survivors, and then gets taken when he gets to close to the truth
I think BHVR needs to apologize and fix this eubject matter especially my opinion since this was a very real historical event amd i am deeply sorry to those who have been affected we had no idea i had no idea please take it one day at a time
As if the NFTs weren't bad enough, they're propping up actual real world colonialism now.
Ahhh gonna cry pssy?
Im pretty sure they cut ties with the guy who made the nft
Jonah ,to all his sins and issues, also has no drip, his outfits are ALL awful
Start of Vid: here‘s why this Videogame Character sucks
Mid of the Vid: The government is lying to you
I like it because this gives you more reason for Carmina to kill him
as a chilean with family members who are still missing since the dictatorship, this is so deeply disturbing i can’t even believe it. they could’ve donde something so cool, like making Jonah a morally gray character or something, but nah, lets make him the survivor “good guy” when hes part of an agency who made my country miserable. sure thing, why not.
Y'know good people can work for shady and cruel companies right?
@@fluffybum204 y'know, in the lore Jonah was never a good person in the first place and he was just feeling guilty bc he bombed civilians instead of rebels who fought against a dictatorship, right? And in the first place, it's already really weird. Its as if you made a jew the killer and a nazi soldier a survivor. In the lore they NEVER recognized Jonah was doing bad things and didnt even call out what the CIA was really doing: pampering a fascist dictatorship which killed thousands of civilians. Jonah never questions his organization and even steals from the rebels to help the civilians who most likely also ended up dying because of the dictatorship.
@@nompuehuenu ok, so you just described a morally grey character
Someone who does bad things but that doesn't necessarily mean they are aware they are doing them or think they are for a better cause
@@fluffybum204 the problem is that the text itself NEVER states he is a morally grey character. it never even recognizes what the dictatorship was. do you even know how to read? in my first comment i even said it was a shame they failed to do that and instead made some pro-war propaganda. jonah never even stated he was doing it for "a good cause", he was just doing his work and never gave a thought about the lives he ruined.
50k special on Springtrap lol
My guess:
6:35-7:37
There are so many random elements that make me think “ok but why”. Why are horror podcasts involved? Why do they just kinda glaze over the LITERAL WAR CRIME?!? It feels like they drew story elements out of a hat to determine where it went next. They try to make this some big conspiracy, but it just ends up muddled, confusing, and pointless
Edit: whelp that was wrong. I think maybe Jonah could have worked in this chapter if he became disillusioned with the CIA after witnessing the shady and violent dealings they commit, maybe even becoming a secret revolutionary from the inside.
Another HUGE problem I have with his character is the weird, incredibly problematic autistic coding throughout the story. To preface: I am autistic. His obsession with math and numbers, lack of personality outside of it, and his inappropriate reaction to the bombing are all pretty classic autistic stereotypes. I would actually love if BHVR embraced an autistic survivor, but it just feels like they lacked the, for lack of a better phrase, balls to do it. It’s kind of insulting. Either go all the way or ditch the coding. HOWEVER, committing to this is also in my opinion the only way to save his story, but you would have to be incredibly careful about it. If Jonah is cannonically autistic, you could lean into the idea of the CIA preying on his genius while simultaneously gaslighting him about the morality of what he is doing. Something very scary and fucked up that happens to specifically diagnosed autistic people is that bad people who know this can abuse the mistrust some of us have over our judgement. It is easy to dismiss your own thoughts and feelings about something as wrong when an entire society tells you that you are poor at making these judgements, and instead just trusting what neurotypical people think. This would make his conflicting feelings and actions make sense: he thinks what he is doing is wrong, but the CIA knows that he will trust their judgment because they constantly tell him he can’t trust his own. This is admittedly insanely risky, and honestly I don’t think I trust BHVR to pull it off without resorting to stereotypes and giving him no agency, but it is something I think they should consider.
Claudette's a pretty good character with decent autistic coding!
This is alot of moral grandstanding over a well written character, especially since the story itself even if you wanted to say it’s insensitive puts the CIA itself in a bad light as the villains, as some others have recently pointed out how could Jonah possibly continue rebelling against a force thats much greater than him that actively showed it could blow him off the map at any point it desired? Good people do bad things willingly or not and thats my take away from the story outside of the fact that Jonah is an example of someone who’s caught in a bad situation he didnt even realize he was in until the cards were layed out on the table.
I have alot of issues with your media literacy watching through your videos, i disagree with alot, and i agree with other things but this is the hardest miss youve had by far
Wake up Honey, new Lore Guy video just released
tl;dw
CIA bad. 👍
i always forget jonah exists
Where’s “Welcome Friends & Foes, Survivors & Killers, today lets sit around the campfire together and talk about dead by daylight, specifically” ☹️
Not as long as Hag's "don't worry mom it's not like I'm gonna get eaten by cannibal's or something" exists
Seriously, no one even thing’s about Jonah
Oh my, that outro was spot on.
Your analysis is excellent, as usual Pixel.
Stay awesome.
-DSH
Ha ha no. By default his lore is better than The Hag’s lore.
Nea, Jonah, Dwight, Yun, Ace are probably the least empathic survivors in the realm
Leave Yun alone
Thank you for the lore video! Really hope someone who can do something about his lore like in BHVR can fix it
Truly hope you enjoy Outlast Pixel! It's really one of my favourite horror games, and if you love CIA inspired horror, you're gonna love this one!
Why tf did I think Jonah was a math teacher??
3:27 he’s a nerd
The only thing I remember about Jonah is his name and how close it is to the name of the creator of Invader Zim.
When the chapter dropped and I saw who they were, Carmina a political artist and activist and Jonah a CIA agent, I was stunned because I thought for the first time we were gonna get a super complex and rich story where the survivor is the one who m*rdered the killer (like what would've happened if the entity took Spirit's dad as a survivor) but, like, that didn't happen
Also, the way the made him latino to try to cover their asses and soften the blow of him being part of the CIA 🙃
Look guys, he's latin-american so there's no way he's promoting imperialism by working with the imperialist organization
I like that you used a math metaphor to conclude the video, especially taking into account that Jonah was such a math nerd. Nice touch
3:25 he likes math? absurd lore whats next the book teacher? the number killer? HAH
When I clicked on this vid the first thought I had was "who tf is Jonah?"
Listen, sometimes people just want to play as war criminals.
When you realise on of the survivors has killed more people then most other killers before they went to the entity's realm.