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It's a question we get asked all the time: should I run my delays and reverbs in the amp's effects loop, or should they go into the front end?
Well you guessed it, there's no definitive answer, so in this video Daniel and Mick attempt to address the main points to consider when setting up your effects.
We're using a Victory V40 The Duchess amp along with TheGigRig G2 to demonstrate the same effects going into the front end and also in the loop. G2 is taking care of the signal path shenanigans as seamlessly as it always does.
As you will hear, the differences are subtle but significant.
A Strymon Big Sky and Time Line supply reverb and delay respectively, while the JHS Pedals Angry Charlie serves up the distortion.
We suspect this may be a topic we will need to revisit at some point so please post your comments and questions below and we'll do our best to address them.
Oh, and we love Taylor Swift, just for the record.
Happy watching!
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"That Pedal Show" should be mandatory viewing for guitar players of all skill levels looking to get he most out of their rig.
Agreed!
+Michael Fenton Agreed!!
+Michael Fenton true dat
Michael Fenton wish i had years ago, no kiddin.
I was actually thinking this a few hours ago....I personally know a ton of guitar players out there gigging that have no idea what they’re really doing. There’s no excuse with the advent of these TH-cam tutorial and demo vids. It’s as good as school.
You could have just stopped the video at "Dave Gilmour doesn't use effects loops"...great video!
Fred Feldman Yeah thats true
Well this is random
Mainly because he runs his amps super clean and smacks a Ram's Head Muff in front of it for screaming leads. The effect loop was for people who run their amps dirty, but don't like the sound of a delay or chorus going into an overdriven amp.
Well, David Gilmour mostly played (I don’t know about now) a Hiwatt DR 103 and this one does not have an effects loop so this might be the main reason.
Smurfman256 Gilmour has used countless different pedals from two Silicon Fuzz Faces(one for clean, one for distortion) to various Muff clones in recent years. But his use of modulation, in the front, is counter-intuitive to most players that try to get tones as clear, as his usually is.
Man I love you guys. You managed to explain something 100x more clearly than the other countless videos I've watched on effects loop and now I FINALLY get it! Thanks gentlemen. Sorry to hear things didn't work out with Taylor. ;)
I love how he went from the loop first then he went into the front. As soon as he went into front I felt like an addict wanting that crispy clean beauty back.
Something I discovered about running delays into the front end of a cranked up amp is that the level of the delay repeats can be much more responsive to your dynamics. When you play softly and roll back your guitar volume, the repeats become more subtle or fade out completely. As you hit the amp harder and get more power tube overdrive, the delays come back in a lovely grainy, almost lo-fi kind of vibe. Cranking the level of the repeats yields more overdrive on the repeats since they're hitting the amp harder.
By contrast, I found that running my delay after my OD pedal and into a clean amp yields a much more controllable delay with cleaner repeats, but I hear the repeat at any setting on my guitar's volume knob due to the compression in the OD pedal smoothing out my level going into the delay.
Playing my Analog Man ARDX20 straight into my Carr Rambler cranked to 10 has made me completely rethink delay sounds. If you have an analog delay, play it into an OD pedal or a cranked up amp and play with your guitar's volume knob and your picking dynamics. You might discover something cool.
Welp, took my delay out of the loop and if just like to personally thank you guys for making my delay sound incredible. Thanks a bunch
Throwing down wisdom 8 years ago. I've watched a Ton Of your awesome content and once again this one gave me ideas. Gonna put my phaze 90 in front of my amp
Awesome fellas. I learnt plenty and realise I don't need to buy an amp with an effects loop. For once you've saved my thousands as opposed to the usual!
Gentlemen, your vids are simply perfect and a lot of fun to watch! I am learning a lot! Just go on like that!
Will do, make sure you're signed up to the new channel :)
Look forward to the show every week. Keep it up lads!
It has to be said.....The Pedal Show ROCKS!!! Love the depth and passion that comes across in these shows....and the knowledge shared is priceless. Thanks guys :)
I'm so grateful for your input (excuse the pun). Picking up my guitar again after two or three decades, I've recently been overwhelmed to such a degree by technical-equipment stuff, that I couldn't even find the correct words to phrase my questions. Your explanation and demonstration has been incredibly helpful... thank you.
+Peter Marshall ah, absolutely my pleasure Peter. Thanks for watching ;)
+Peter Marshall A really basic question: Can you please define what you mean by the terms 'wet' and 'dry' ? The terms are bandied-around so much by those in 'the know'. I'm assuming that the dry-signal is taken from the pre-amp, prior to the effects-loop stage... however, I guess that the even drier signal would be taken prior to any effects being added. Sorry if this sounds like a 'numptie' question.
+Peter Marshall The 2 terms vary in meaning but for the most part, a dry signal is the signal that's direct from your guitar and your amplifier, whereas a wet signal is the sound of the delay and reverb in the background.
" If its good for enough for Dave, its good enough for me " That brought a genuine smile to my face.
What the hell would I do without this show?! Maybe have less gear in my life but wow every problem or question I have you guys not only answer but leave me informed on why it's best for my situation. Thank you so much
Wow, y'all have come a long way! So glad I found your channel
putting my whole chain through the loop has made everything finally sound right for me. it's also been really helpful in letting me keep a noisy cut-throat distorted tone at suburban decibel levels.
A big hug from Rio de Janeiro for you!!!!
Your presentation has come so far. These early videos, even though they have excellent information, are so much harder to follow than your new videos with the shadow boxes to show what effects are active and the multiple cameras, etc. Great job evolving to make the videos so much easier to follow (while I'm multitasking, LOL).
Yup I would agree. I've been deep diving into That Pedal Show to get my understanding of all things stompy an ampy up to scratch. The newer vids are def easier to follow, where's here I'm rewinding a lot - though sleep dep from last nights binge watching and playing doesn't help
I have been watching you guys for like two years now and I’m really digging all the videos. There’s a lot of genuine fun had between you guys and this series is a genuine masterclass for playing rock’n roll with an electric guitar.
thanks guys, this makes it clear that given a choice, it would absolutely be the more detailed, rich and dimensioney presentation of the FX send/return. It was pretty obvious!
You guys have really helped me make much more sense out of this stuff!!! Glad I found you!
Hey Edward, you’re so welcome 🤓👍
EQ pedal episode would be awesome. Amazing show guys keep it up!
I've never had a good experience with the FX loop. Some people do, I'm sure, but not me. I've tried it with a JCM 900, Supersonic 60, and Fender Blues Deville 410. I run a Fender Deluxe Reverb '65 RI right now and I A/B into both channels: Vibrato for cleans, and normal for dirt. I have my Saucy Box after the A/B switch and my Carbon Copy before my A/B switch. Having the delay before my OD has made a world of difference. I love it. It's clear, clean, and distinct.
I'm sure many people have had success with FX loops, but I wouldn't base an amp purchase off of it.
That's excellent, you've experimented and found a setup that works for you. Our job here is done :)
I have a Crate GFX 212, it doesn't have a conventional FX Loop. It has a single Stereo 1/4 Input on the front of the amp and the way you use it (according to the manual) is you buy a stereo 1/4 inch to 2 mono 1/4 inch splitter cable and plug the stereo end into the "insert" jack and the other ends to each output of the pedal(s) you are wanting in the loop. I used to think it didn't have an FX Loop but now that I know it does, I actually like this amp. I like the very basic clean it has, perfect for pedals and modulation of every sort.
Five years later this was very usefull for me; thank you
pretty useful stuff. The best way I can describe it is, if you run a delay in front of the amp and your using the overdrive from the amp your basically running the delay into the overdrive. that's why delay and reverb is usually last in the chain. if it's not it will be distorted by what ever effect comes next.
.it really sucks! (overdrive from the amp...) I learned this long ago on my own.
Can't believe I just found this channel. My 3 loves, comedy, pedals and jiu jitsu! Awesome video series guys, can't get enough.
Thanks for the thorough talk and examples guys! Answered some questions I had, and some I didn't know I had until you answered them :)
You either distort the delay and reverb or you reverb and delay the distortion. The latter seems better in my opinion. Think recording session.
typically but not always..
Hi guys, i'd love for yous to do a video on guitar sounds in the mix in comparison to guitar sounds on its own. Its an interesting and unexplored topic among the internet guitar spectrum! And you guys know your stuff!
Great idea!
Great show as always gents.
After some experimenting I've had a change of heart about effects loops. Sorry for the book...
I had an EQ I was running in front of the amp at unity gain and it was just not giving me what I needed from the EQ. So I switched some things around and put it as the first pedal in the effects loops in front of a chorus, a multi-effects (chorus/flanger/rotary etc...) and a one knob roll (clean) boost for solos last in the loop chain. Since the EQ is now in loop as an "always on" pedal it's also functioning as a buffer for the pedals that follow.
Going in the front I have an octave pedal (which is a buffered BOSS OC-2), my 1972 King Vox Wah, a compressor that's always on, then the phaser and flanger, a clean boost (for conditioning single coil pickups) then into an outboard overdrive then into the amp. I inserted a stand-alone buffer at the end of the line in (front-end) chain to replace the always on EQ I just put into the loop. With that, and the always on compressor, except for the BOSS OC-2 and the wah pedal my inline pedals are fully in a buffer sandwiched.
It's like there was a cold wet blanket on that amp and putting the EQ as an always on pedal in the effects loop is like taking that blanket off.
Sure David Gilmour ran everything into the front but none of us is David Gilmour and he probably didn't have effects loops at his disposal early on.
Thanks again for another great show.
You guys always have the tastiest overdrive tones.....simply a joy to listen too.
Fellas. 3:30 is all you had to say to earn a subscription! SO MANY people will tell you that even overdrives need the loop. However it’s far from the truth. Thanks for getting right into the hearty information and keeping that info legit and straightforward! Cheers mates 🍻🤝
Ahaha I'm mentioned in this video...! In all seriousness, thanks for the video, I've been learning about effects chains and wanted to learn about the loop- and you guys gave the best explanation by far.
Love the jiu-jitsu shirt. I do not have a effects loop on my amplifier or a pedal that has that capability. I plug everything thru the front of my amplifier with the amplifier on a clean setting. my analog delay does not like being in a effects loop.
Great job guys... Guitar/ gear nerds like myself can't get enough of your show. Very informative.
Love the "Taylor and girl singer" digs, spot on ahahaha!!!
Good teaching Mick & Daniel, no question. I have learn something new as always. Great channel. Thank you guys.
I have watched 5 of your videos today, very informative, and on topics that I not considered the importance of.
I was watching this video will my wife was watching TV so I put on the CC. It was quite hilarious, because it was giving this video a totally different story!! Try it for fun!
Thanks guys, after watching your video I now have my delay and reverb going into the effects loop of my Kemper, a definate improvement :-)
Thanks for the vid guys! I ran it up as you described. The time based pedals really do work better in the loop of my Egnater. It really tamed them and made them more alive.
Best videos on here,infomative and sometimes funny it's great these guys describe everything in pretty simple format and without being boring either like some are.
Great discussion, coupled with very clear information which this subject needed.
u guys are so on point. the loop gives effects a more wet sound
Awesome show guys. So glad I found you on here. Been binge watching, and have already learned a lot. Cheers
That Pedal Show is far and away THE best pedal show, these two are the dynamic duo of pedal reviews. One thing I must mention is Mick always brings things into focus for the layman when Dan gets techy - this is an invaluable aspect of this already naturally excellent partnership. I partially agree with Daniel - though they did not mention this too much - especially for mod pedals adding color to the overall tone rather than fundamentally changing it, which is a GREAT sound... I put them PRE dirt, PRE loop. i.e.: My mod pedals are right after compression... and I LOVE THEM THERE - but delays and verbs (unless I'm going for a specialized sound) I will keep on the back end.
Great video. I personally like the more organic sounds by going into the front. I also like old school simple amps, they dont have fx loops. You showed the tonal differences!
Now this is a show I can appreciate.
Sounds better in front of the amp ,my amp doesn't have a fx loop so now i have my answer great demoThanks
I use an amp that has the perfect drive tones, and there's pedals I don't like in front of distortion being generated by the amp, so they go in the effects loop. A parallel effects loop versus the series loop (found in most amps) preserves the amp's tone, there's blend knob to bring in the effects.
I use a lot of front end distortion in both my amps, but I prefer using all my effects in front of them. That includes modulation and delays. I have a multi-channel Mesa/Boogie MarkIV and a single channel Marshall JCM 800.
14:44 when you think about how good ur sound is gonna be after watching this video
Would love an episode about equalizers! Would love hearing the new Mesa five band pedal vs a boss! Love the videos! Keep it coming :)
Great show guys! Excellent flow of info! Cheers
An oldie but a goodie
Makes total sense. There some really great amps with awful loops!!!! If your using older stomps,make sure it is an instrument level loop or you will clip your delays especially. Unfortunately these types of loops require rack gear,and that doesn't always work either.
Great video. I'm pretty new to this game and there is lots of good information here. Keep up the good work. Cheers from across the pond.
Live, and loud... I always put my order as....
Amp: Laney LC50ii
Front: Reverb, chorus
Parallel loop: Delay, Boss LS2 looping 2 phasers (effects level about 70%)
It adds an amazing honk to my Laney and the delay into the phaser means the phaser is kept moving rather than repeating a moment of the phaser. I blend the phaser in as loud it can be too dominant.
I feel fortunate to own a '94 Groove Tubes Soulo 75 amp that has a parallel effects loop! It's the best effects loop design in my opinion.
delay and reverb in front sounds nice because the reduced volume of the repeating / reverb sound is not full of gain like the initial note since it does not have enough volume to push the amp. In the loop, the reverb / repeats have the same gain sound as the initial notes. Putting them before retains better clarity of the actual notes you are playing.
great video gents, explained so much. incredibly helpful 👌👌
The delay and reverb is definitely more prominent in the effects loop, but that may not necessarily be what you want
Great video! Thanks again.
Hey Dan, thanks for this video! Maybe another topic would be how to properly split your guitar signal. I'm currently wondering how to do it after the ex loop of my amp so I can have a D/W rig. That could be a topic for one of your videos, I think. Thanks again, I really enjoy all the knowledge that you both share and also the tone!
very interesting video, i am a 100% delay in the loop person (Carbon Copy in a JMP with a zero loss loop) - however on your video I actually preferred the sound of the delay in front. I will give it a try on my rig and see what happens :)
one of the best channels on youtube...
Try a Metro Zero Loss Effects Loop. Very clean, no tweaking needed.
Vibe/phase/flange? In the loop or front? Depends on the pedal?
Ok, editing this a few days later and after some experimentation with my basic-bitch FX loop, I must say the delay & reverb sounded great post gain in the loop. But the interesting thing was the flanger or chorus. In the front it sounds ok but through the loop, I turned into Brian May. Not what I expected, given that my amp is not exactly expensive.
Hmmm I think I liked reverb most in the loop but I could do delay in either place depending on use... solution? Strymon TimeLive in the loop, Jam Delay Llama in front, Chase Tone Secret Preamp in front of that! I've seen this before twice but revisited it. Good job demonstrating the pros and cons. FX loop can sound just right seems like sometimes or way too refrigerator rack sounding at other times . Maybe running straight in and adjusting the settings would be fine as long as you're not getting any more than mild tube compression.
A parallel effects loop splits the signal and sends it to the power amp AND out the effects send as well. Most effects loops are serial effects loops and route the whole pre amp signal out the send, aback in the return and then through to the power amp. You have to know if the effects loop is serial or parallel to make the best decisions.
SO HELPFUL!! And I had to rewatch the Taylor Swift call again...3 times
Quick note: If you have a REALLY nice overdrive like a Le Crunch or a OriginDrive, you can completely bypass your whole preamp section of your amp and go from the pedal to the return of your FX loop and you’ll basically have a whole new amp. Just make sure you don’t connect the send to anything! It’s quite and amazing thing to do! Also, you can buy a JHS “Little Black Box” for $45 and connect it to the fx loop of your amp as an attenuator to get really nice saturated tones a whisper or bedroom levels if you need it. Actually, if you already own a volume pedal; you can do the same thing! Cheers!
IMO there are no rules.. It's just a question of ones taste and how you want it to sound.. try everything out! This makes it so diverse and interesting!
Gracie shirt. Love it!
OSS!
I put my Yamaha SPX900 in the FX loop of my Mesa Formula Pre amp, (Formula Pre Amp has a 'blend' in the FX loop),
and into my Peavey Classic Series 50/50 tube amp. Excellent sounds! Just like Dan said , "gain structure". (The Yamaha SPX 900 is a true line level rack mount unit which I used mainly in my FOH FX racks. I had this lying around and just wanted to give it a try. The Mesa Formula Pre Amp, SPX900 and Classic Series50/50 power amp are all rack mount. I put my other pedals direct into the Mesa pre amp. Best sounding rig (for me) that I have ever played through. (Except when I played through a real Dumble.)
Gains and overdrives in front of amp delays and reverbs effects loop. Generally. Because times I love my reverb front end. On Surf Guitar front of amp every time!
You have to try and see if you like it. I run overdrive, fuzz pedal in a loop because it sound better with my amp. Always use your ears. Cheers :)
Great show as always! I feel like one thing should be cleared up about parallel fx-loops though. Say you run a Delay and a Reverb in the loop like you do in this video. The internal signal path of these pedals look something like this (although very simplified):
-> Dry (just guitar) -> Dry (guitar+delay)
Signal from preamp -> Delay ->Dry+Wet blend -> Reverb
-> Wet (just delay) -> Wet (just reverb)
If you set both the delay and reverb to kill the dry signal (like you said in the video, although it might not be what you meant!) , you will loose the delay and only get reverb signal, since the "dry signal" going into the reverb actually carries the delay too. Therefor, only the FIRST pedal in the parallel fx-loop should be set to dry kill, otherwise you'll get just the effect of the last pedal :) Again, great show, I'm always looking forward to what comes next! Just wanted to clear some things up that weren't super clear in the video!
Hey guys - I'd love a video about running effects in parallel.
I mean even with a single amp, let's connect Tuner/aux out to Volume return and Volume send to 10ST return (with 10M send & return bridged) and then move the volume loop!
Inserting the volume after loop 10 might be harmful though
Okay, so effects in the loop sound more HD, and in the front more SD.
Reverb in the loop has all of its shimmering glory, whilst in the front it gets choked up.
Delay in the loop will repeat with all of your drive vs trailing off cleaner and cleaner as its not pushing the valves as hard as the original signal.
That's the beauty of tone. You can do almost anything you want.
I've only been playing for about three years so I'm new to your channel but I subscribed because of the jiu jitsu shirt lol!!
Love these videos, look forward to the next one. As an idea for a next episode it'd be amazing to see a video on MIDI and all the awesome stuff you could do with it. Would be intrigued to see just how much you can do with it and the G2
Cracking stuff gents :-)
Great vid learnt heaps, knowledge is tone....
great demo and explanations.
Great job guys! Thanks again for taking the time and going through the proper rigors of comparison on this topic. Your videos are among my favorites for gaining the knowledge I can use without costing me money, time, and Pete Townsend tom foolery I would have to go through to get it. Don't get me wrong I have owned albums and appreciated the Who and Pete's work over the years. It's just that one can't really grab, run, and return all that not so good stuff without being recognized by the 3rd time!
+Mike Sperling cheers Mike :)
That's by far my favorite pedal-guitar related channel on TH-cam! It would be great to see an episode on input impedance of fuzz pedals. My favorite drive is the EHX Double Muff, but it has to be the first in the pedal chain. I also have a Fuzz Face Mini, which also doesn't take wah or compressor in front of it. I ended up settling with a SolidGold Rosie, which does fine anywhere in the chain.
All my dirt pedals are preamps(amptweaker tight metal,amt B1,amt E1, amt R1, airis effects hades preamp. Thus making it ESSENTIAL for me to have a fx loop. A good one at that.
I use a Foxx Tone Machine Fuzz in the effx loop of a peavey classic 50 and it radically improves the sound of the amp. Huge and harmonic
Good discussion of the routing/sonic considerations (front end vs effects loop). Most guitarists perform and/or record using an amp in some configuration. However, increasingly guitarists are using their guitar and pedals - via an audio interface - injecting directly into their DAW, and running their signal through amp simulators and Impulse Responses (IRs). Have you considered doing a show for those of us who record In-the-box? For example, what, if any, do you think are pluses and minuses or considerations of such an approach? Also, guitarists are increasingly using their pedals as send-effects. Any thoughts?
wow gentlemen, great video. i learned a lot to day!!!
I like to run my Dr. Scientist Reverberator in the loop, but not my delays so much. I like my delay dark, warbly, and analog. That reverb has a great JFET circuit that gives my sound a bit more clarity and definition. Kind of like the ep booster would but a bit smoother. And it's just a killer reverb pedal. Love the plate sounds on it.
Just make sure you run pedals/processors through the cleanest sound setting possible on your amp when running through front. If you get a slight hum use the noise suppressor FX or pedal. I have a Line 6 🕷️ III 150. Great stereo 2X12 for the value but no FX loop.
Very informative 👍🏼
can you PLEASE actually show us how to set it up, with some pedals going into the front of the amp, and some going into the effects loop? I saw some videos, and they just ran through it too fast, and did not show the set up, they just showed how it sounds.. I have played a long time, but am new to all this pedal stuff, and how to use the loop.. many years I could only afford guitar and amp... so I am new to this stuff...can you do it real s-l-o-w? as if I WAS a beginner??Thanks..
Effects Pedals 101 -- Typical Order -- Pre Gain Effects (Tuner,
Volume, Pitch Modulation (whammy, wah, harmonizer), and Compressors), Gain (OD / DS /
Boost / EQ), and then Post Gain Modulation (Phaser, Flanger, Delay,
Reverb). The Post Gain Effects are what really shines in an effects loop
because an amplifier's pre amp is a gain stage. Besides that, its not rocket science. Guitar > Pre Gain Effects > Gain Effects > Front of the Amplifier > Send Out > Post Modulation Effects > Return.
Nathan.. but how does one actually physically set it up? Which cords go where, and can they all be on one board, or need to go on 2 different boards? I sort of understand the order..so an e.q. would go in the front part? would the eq be the last thing going in the front input? OK, how would I actually run the chords and stuff, for the effects loop? Can you please show it slowly in a video, how to actually hook up this mess of chords? Thanks...
I just gave the exact order that would order you would put them in. Id only use a single board. My current setup doesnt use an fx loop though. I run through the input of the amp. Just grab a good set of patch cables and an a nice 1spot pedal adapter and start plugging in and create sounds.
got it running?
cords. chords??
Interesting video, especially as I don’t have an amp with an effects loop it’s interesting to find out what they’re all about
For channel switching amps, I have noticed that delay sounds different (amount and presence of the delay effect) for my clean channel than it does for the overdriven channel. i.e. a small amount of delay that sounds "right" on the clean channel, sounds like too much delay when I switch to the OD channel. If it's in the loop, it sounds "just right" for both channels. For this reason, I prefer delay in the loop for a channel switcher, but NOT when I using pedals to get my overdrive. Makes sense when you think about it... when the "drive" is after the delay, it boosts that delay effect too much. If the "drive" (in this case pedals), the delay is relatively unmolested when shifting from clean tone to driven tone.
Hey.. just rewatching this and noticed your Gracie shirt! Thats awesome man!
great vid guys I always run delay/reverb in a instrument level metro amp FX loop on both my amps. way to muddy in front when you add more delay times or deeper reverbs when in front... on digital pedals.. strymon and eventide are still digital effects. I had a mobius but never dug it so I tried the eventide H9 and feel its much better overall. both strymon and eventide should be in a instrument level loop for the best audio and less issues..imo , but in the end its up to the individual musicians ears.
NOW video showing 2 amps in stereo with H9 pre/ post and H9 in both amps fx loops (stereo) with the humdinger and G2!!
Love these videos. But have you done a show where you explain the large channel switcher type boards you use at the bottom of the pedalboard and how they work? Would be great to see that. Another reason why I like these vids is because you can almost see the pub session before the filming in both of your faces...