That Pedal Show - Amps: How Many Watts Do You Need?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Welcome to That Pedal Show and thank you for watching - please subscribe to our channel and visit our store www.thatpedals...
In this episode, Daniel and Mick are tackling a couple of potentially confusing questions…
• How relevant is the output wattage of your amp to its actual volume?
• How relevant is the output wattage of your amp to its tone, dynamics and response on the end of your guitars and pedals?
To help explore these questions and more, they have a Vox AC10 Twin (approx. 10 watts), Vox AC30 (approx. 30 watts) and a Mesa Lone Star (approx 100 watts) on hand.
Daniel is using his Fender Custom Shop ’63 Telecaster and Mick is using his Fender American Vintage ’62 Stratocaster.
The pedals used today are:
Wampler Tumnus Overdrive
UK & Europe: bit.ly/2gclnLh
USA: bit.ly/3yJjLlu
Australia: bit.ly/2Vy2v1q
Fire Custom Shop Carpe Diem Distortion - no longer made
Analogman ARDX20 Analogue Delay
www.buyanalogm...
As always, all amp and effects switching and routing is via TheGigRig G2. www.thegigrig.com/
Now, this almost certainly won’t be the last video we do on the subject as we suspect it will throw up a ton of questions. We absolutely love your feedback but before taking to the keyboard, the following may answer some of the more obvious questions…
Mick’s thoughts after hearing the audio and editing the video…
Well that was interesting! As Dan and I mentioned during the video, we had an idea of what the resultant tones would be, but we were interested to hear what actually made it to the recorder. A number of questions spring to mind after hearing the audio back…
Q: Why didn’t we use a dB meter so there was a visual representation of the volume differences?
A: It would have confused things further. Your ears/brain are incredibly sophisticated at interpreting loudness in a way that your eyes/brain just aren’t. Plus, the last time Mick used a dB meter (comparing amps with a dragster for Guitarist mag), the dB results had very little relevance to what we actually ‘heard’ on the day.
Q: How come all the amps sound more or less the same volume in the audio?
A: Because quiet signals don’t sound as good as loud ones. If we’d have set the recording levels to handle the highest level from the Mesa, the AC10 would have sounded relatively thin and weedy, which certainly was not the case in the room. Mics require a little more intervention than your ears when it comes to level adjustment.
Also during playback, your brain will tell you that a louder sound (as long as it’s not over loud or clipping) is ‘better’ than a very quiet one. Again, we wanted to avoid that bias.
Q: How loud was it, really, in the room?
A: The faces tell the story! The AC10 and AC30 were borderline uncomfortable. Probably an excellent club gigging level, although we’ve had to play A LOT quieter. The Mesa was more than uncomfortable for more than a few seconds’ playing. It’s hard to imagine a ‘normal’ pub or club gig where you’d get to play that loud (in mine and Dan’s world anyway).
Q: Don’t confuse a ‘loud’ sound with a ‘full’ sound? What does that mean?
A: This relates to recorded guitar tones. We attempted to demo the answer in the video, but as it happens, the Mesa ended up sounding pretty big too, and that may well be because of the room mics we use. In addition to the Sennheiser e906 mics on the amps there is also an X-Y pair on our recording device (Zoom H6), faced away from the amps. We mix some of this in with the cab mics as it gives a more realistic impression of what we’re hearing in the room - a lone e906 (or SM57) on a belting speaker really doesn’t sound like the amp in the room. It sounds smaller, more contained, with little of the low-end resonance and whatever else the room brings. It can be a great sound for recording in a track because it sits well in a mix. In addition, the louder you push a big amp, the more those reflections and room sounds can become problematic for the mics, which is why you need to limit them, either by acoustic treatment in the room, or by simply using close mics only. All of which helps to explain why using smaller amps with a couple of mics can be so much less hassle and yield far better results when recording - especially at home or in small project studios. That’s what we mean when we say a ‘loud’ sound isn’t necessarily a ‘big’ sound.
Er, except when you're out playing live, un-mic'd. In which case it's hopefully both!
Q: So did we actually conclude anything in the end?
A: Yes! You can get a great sound out of any decent valve amplifier, regardless of wattage, when you have your pedals chosen and set up to work with that amp. Some people like smaller amps cranked to compressing, overdriving oblivion, while others like big amps for maximum headroom and dynamic range from their pedals.
Want to buy a T-shirt? Please visit www.thatpedalsh...
9:08 ..... really unfortunate guitar strap placement on Dan's t shirt :'). another great video though. amazing the difference the amps sound depending on if the strat was playing vs the tele.
Jonathan Smith-Wesson omg you're right about the shirt, it looked like "pedo" at times,, love these guys but that's hilarious!!!
Lol
My friend has a shirt that says ANALOG but unfortunate for him, his guitar strap always covers the last two letters.
haha
😂😂😂
A guitar demo/explanation video where the presenters are well informed players who aren't trying out their hilarious 90s comedy double act. What's going on here?
+yaisum Hahahahahaha! We'll try harder next time Yaisum. ;0)
+That Pedal Show Truly, a really enjoyable vid and very interesting. Cheers...I was going to say, it would have been useful to have one of you shouting whilst playing to understand how loud they are, but at 16.38 Rick Astley (apologies don't know your name) says something and no sound comes out his mouth at all...so quite loud then.
+That Pedal Show Great vid as always guys. With big sound, loud sound as spoken about. Where would this place something like the Tone King's with the ironman II attenuator ? and pedals and tones, without blowing the walls down? Do you think power scaling like this does work? and does it need to be power scaling from 45 watts? Or do you really still end up with a similar sound from a small (in terms of power) 'bedroom level' amp?
+yaisum Rick Astley!
+benbutterworth Never gonna give you up baby. FFS. Mick
As an aside, please be careful of your hearing. It's a sad thing to loose your hearing as you age. It's incredibly isolating.
capitan von chicken pants yes not fun at all i have a hard time sleeping now with voices in my head and the constant ringing noise
WHAT?
Agreed. Been at this for 57+ years. The crickets are singing to me CONSTANTLY, and get miserably louder when I crank my '64 Super Reverb with a Boss Compressor to make it sound the way it should. Can only play for a few minutes, but pay for several hours with greatly increased white noise. BTW: My finding is that true Class A amps (without negative feedback loop) will do less damage to the hearing because it has less punch than Class A/B. Again, that's from an experienced player.
ALSO: Watch the amount of weight you carry and lift in and out of your car trunk. I played weekends for most of 35 years, and the last band I was with, I would heft my Fender Twin up over my head and carry it though the crowd at quitting time. I have had foraminal stenosis for eight years now, making it painful to walk every step. It comes from squashing your spinal discs which causes the body to try to fill the space with bone, which presses against the nerves. However, it can be reversed with Hekla Lava and Ca. Flourica. See Dr. Katchen on TH-cam.
th-cam.com/video/0IA6I8i6KLQ/w-d-xo.html
The other sad thing is the huge number of people reading your comment thinking....''It won't happen to me''
The next equally sad thing is that it probably will...!!
Spot on. And perhaps doubly hard for musicians, who base their whole life on sounds and songs...
cool video, very entertaining. I get the concept behind demonstrating loudness, but why the hell wouldn't you wear earplugs?
Murry In Arizona oh shet
@@Murry_in_Arizona Dang, you mean that these:
store.davidclark.com/hearing-protectors/model-9an-2-06504g-03
are inadequate?
I guess I will be wanting the Helmet plates then.
Dudes! Great video, but please get some earplugs in, I'm worried for your hearing! :O
+J G Harding no doubt that both of us will have suffered some hearing loss over the years JG. You can't hear the amps properly with plugs in though. We'll have a bigger room one day. Maybe with some screens. :0)
+That Pedal Show Ah commiserations, you're missing out on some beautiful dog-whistle symphonies...
Sorry, what did you say ?
For those wondering, the actual difference between the 10W & 100W is 10dB. 1W=30dBm, 10W=40dBm, & 100W=50dBm. To get 60dBm you would need 1,000 Watts of power!!! You guys are absolutely amazing! You keep the information interesting, and at the core of it all you keep exploring, which in my opinion is exactly what music is! Thanks and I hope you stay around for a long while!
+Matthew M cheers M :)
do a power soak amps vs master volume amps! great job!
even attenuators and power scaling could be added in there!
+Matt Kelaart yeah!
I'd love to see an episode on deliberately mismatching speakers (type, not impedence, of course) in amps, I've always loved the sound of a 2x12 with two differently voiced speakers in it.
Ol' Zircon i have 2 music-man 2x12 cabs from the 70s. I've ran them with 1 70s Eminence OEM speaker w/ an old Pyle Driver speaker, OEM w/ Eminence Texas Heat, 2 OEMs, 2 Texas Heats, a Texas Heat w/an Eminence Governor, and finally OEM w/ Governor. I've sound tested them all in a day to find what best fits my needs. It was a blast to do and super interesting to see how the combinations worked. I was really amazed at how different the sound was from right in front of the speakers compared to about 10 feet away.
Yeeeees!
The Vox AC-15C1 purchase I made two years ago has been a master class eye opening experience in just exactly how many watts are truly needed to gig. From my perspective it’s 15 watts. Cheers!🎸🇺🇸
Does the sound guy mic the amp? How do you get the sound to your audience?
Next video will be a review on hearing aids? Oticon vs. Phonak vs. Siemens? Seriously though guys, I do hope you were wearing some sort of hearing protection.
Comment of the day!
Even though it's "That Pedal Show" I think that in the future, discussions of amp speakers, guitar pickups should be had as well!
24ZEPACDC that speaker show
That cord length show
Please do a video about various low wattage amps and what overdrive pedals to use with them to get your sound (sound of pedal vs pedal pushing power tubes).
That would be really great for us bedroom players.
I recently picked up an Ibanez tube screamer amp , it’s a great little amp . All tube ,6V6 /12AX7 ,switchable 5/15 watts , and it has the 808 circuit on the front , and a Celestion seventy 80 10 in. It was less the 400 American . Great little amp.
I second that. Very confusing to decide on an amp for apt practicing. Tube amp with pedals recommendations. Thank you.
:D Hahaha: "the horrible conclusion is you can't just have one amp,"
I've already played that part of the video to my wife. Not sure she agrees, but it was worth a try!
For a few months I was the guitar tech for a guy that used a Triple Rectifier (150w) which is one of the loudest amps around. He used it because he liked the clean headroom/pre-amp distortion tone, didn't care about the power section at all, so at normal volume the pre-amp section stays untouched, worked great for him. However, I was always curious about how it would sound cranked to the max, so one time at a small live venue soundcheck, we did it just for the fun factor and holy shit it almost ripped my head in half. He played for 10 or 15sec until I noticed the cab slowly moving backwards from the sheer force of the air pressure pushed out by the speakers lol.
Interesting bits and go-to sections:
00:00 - Intro playing and what two leg-ends are doing today
02:08 - How much louder is a 30 watt amp than a 10 watt amp?
03:12 - Introducing Captain Maths, and how wattage relates to volume (04:35 - nuance: how relevant is the wattage metric?)
08:13 - How the amp's headroom affects actual volume vs compressing/one's perception of volume
10:19 - The nuance and debate on the relevance of wattage in attaining stage volume (11:28 - don't buy a 100 watt Marshall)
12:13 - Benefits of getting your drive tones from your pedals (13:32 - Mick's massive generalization)
14:31 - Boosting into a 10 watt amp vs boosting into a 100 watt amp
17:31 - The point of breakup, tailoring pedals to your desired sound, and 50 watt vs 100 watt amps
18:37 - SRV's approach
19:07 - Sometimes, Dan's genius... it's almost frightening...
22:08 - A loud sound isn't necessarily a big sound (24:09 - commentary on the results)
25:29 - Mick has a schwang, and Dan smiles (26:42 - more commentary on the results)
27:59 - Watt all this means, and Mick has horrible realization
@ThatPedalShow somehow crammed more useful info into a 30min video than should be possible... A grateful nation of tone junkies thanks you!
Watts isn't about volume, it's about headroom
Not exactly. Headroom is only defined on where an amp starts to break up. Here's an analogy for you. You have a car that goes up to 100 miles an hour. However realistically, how often do you go 100 miles an hour? Not very often. You're usually cruising around 35 - 65 miles an hour. This is NOT hitting it's full potential. And as a metal player, I've found out THAT SUCKS. The tubes are not being driven nearly has hard as they should be. Headroom differs from amp to amp. No 2 amps have the EXACT same headroom. Peavey 6505? Very low headroom. Tubes start to break up around 3 - 4 on the volume. This is why 6505's have been metal gods from the start. It was NOT the mesas, it was NOT the oranges, it was NOT the Marshalls. And from quite a few years of experience I can tell you this much. Lower wattage = bigger, brighter, more defined sound. Higher wattage = Less sound, but able to project outwards more (If even given the chance to let it)
I currently play out of a Hughes & Kettner Tubemeister 18 30th anniversary, and the other guitarist uses a Panama Inferno 100. Guess who's been told a number of times they sound amazing and actually cut through? Not him I'll tell you that much.
Even with pedals?
blablabla... kesimba is right. Volume are measured in decibels, not watts. a 40 watt amp generates only 6 dB more of volume than a 10 watt amp. Thats because the curve is logaritmic, not linear. @@dehibler4811
@@vexguine I am about to make comment about this on the video, but in high school physics, which I loved, we learned that the scale is logarithmic because that is the way our ears perceive differences in SPL (Sound pressure level) so measuring in this way, 3dB actually SOUNDS twice as loud to our ear.
Seems like this is a fact that these videos are leaving out!
@@vexguine I have found an article that explains this far better than these guys do, from a physics standpoint, generally you need a little over 3x the electrical power to produce 10dB more SPL which will result in 3dB increase in the perceived loudness. The log scale is not being used correctly in this video as far as I can tell.
R.I.P Dan and Mick's ears
as usual the enthusiasm you guys have for good sound was contagious and inspiring. I think I'll stick with my 15 watt Vox after all.
Drew A def man thats all you need yoy can play out anywhere with it and you xan get a 2×12 cab for it and it actually does get lo uder and thats crazy but yeah stick with the 15 I actuallly like the tone of the 10 and 15 better then the 30 anyways I own a 10 and can play out with it I love it and its very loud for the wattage I love using it no need for a 30 and now you can mic anything up so it really doesnt matter as long as you have a good tone
band in the 50s use 15 watt amp for live in tv
@@reviewforthetube6485 Could i get some info on combining an ac 15 with a cab?
@@filipeventura2729 sure what information are you wanting? What kind of cab are you looking at?
@@reviewforthetube6485 Apreciate the quick reply! Well any really, im torn betweeen a ac15 going for 470 with a greenback or a ac30 with 2 greenbacks for 600, im afraid in some time ill need a cab if i get the 15 so looking for any information or experience someone had, on the best way to do it
Thanks!
My favorite amp is a 5-watt 57 Fender Champ.
Wow..... This vid should be issued to every guitar player worldwide as a PSA. This vid gave more amp knowledge than 20 yrs worth of guitar magazines! U just made ur mark guys! Cheers.
Dan’s Tele might be the best sounding tele I’ve ever heard
I have a Boogie Mark V, and literally the best thing about it is the ability to run my Cleans at 100 watts for amazing clean loudness but the Drives at 50 watts. If you can buy an amp with per-channel wattage switching, DO IT.
+James Russo Nice! I've been a Boogie fan for years James. Mick
That Pedal Show Awesome, Mick. Out of curiosity, do you ever find the Mesa doesn't sound half as good quiet as when it's turned up. I feel like it's the Blackshadows...
Yep! It's also the OT, the rest of the circuit, the valves, the cabinet resonance.... That's why a purpose designed small amp will make you smile more than a big amp turned down in my opinion.
That Pedal Show Agreed!
I absolutely agree. I love my Mark V. Cleans with a tiny boost and lift from my Rockett Archer sounds amazing. Recommended by Dan. Although the Mark 1 channel on 90 watts is stunning too - given the chance!
I may be wrong, but I think when using the master volume on the Mark V there is a capacitor in there that is essentially acting like an attenuator? You can switch out the master volume and use channel volumes and it jumps in volume massively. Is that right Mick/Dan?
Power is a logarhythmic function. To double the POWER of an amp you need ten times the watts!! - The relevant difference between high and low wattage amps lies not in the power, but in the HEADROOM!!
- Another big thing, that is often forgotten when this content is discussed: When you play today on bigger events, nearly every time there is a P.A. and a monitor system!! This is simply, because in our modern times everybody knows, that it is an illusion to think, that a somewhat differentiated total sound can be reached by simply cram a chaotic number of very different sound producers like drums, vocals, guitars and keyboards ( maybe more...) - which ALL produce VERY differeent own natural volumes, on a stage and to think, you can make them equally balanced!! Without a total balance by a central sound-regulating system this is hard to realise!
- But when you are playing into a satisfying driven P.A. and monitor system, its easy to equal for example a 30 Watt guitar amp, a 300 Watt bass amp on the one side and vocals and drums on the other side, which need NO primary electronical amplification just to produce a sound!
For smaller events the problem is not relevant, because you simply have to turn down the louder amps a bit to balance out the total over-all sound.
So - where is the problem?? - I tell you: Its usually just that certain "species" of dumb guitar-players, who deny the laws of acoustics and think, they are only "real men", when they produce ear-shattering (... and destructing) noise!! - A full, warm and "biting" distortion sound is not a result of maximum volume, when you have cool gear!!
A truely bad physical/medical problem is the slow decrease of the function of your ears, to perceive certain frequencies around 4000 Hertz, which medicine calls the "C5 pit" (or, in other verbs, "Rock musicians desease"). Its a chronical, irreversible progress of destruction of the human acoustic neuro-receptors in your hearing system, that occures, when your acoustic sense is permanently confronted with certain frequencies that appear much too loud and it usually happens, when you hear rock music. In rock music, especially THESE frequencies are massivly present. So, as a permanent active rock musician, you have to take care for yourself and protect your ears!
I learned in my university education, to measure my loss of the ability to perceive certain frequencies by using a method called "audiometry" - and was really shocked, how much of my ability to perceive the mid-spectrum of my acoustical environment i'd already lost in 7 years of playing in rock bands!
*So, again, take care and protect youself, friends in music!!*
I Just subscribed to your channel guys. Thanks for all the info and well done videos . Blues On....
10:15 Don't need a lot of power at home.
19:45 Smaller amp turn up louder.
you guys have seriously taught me more about gear than anyone else
+TEEN DIVORCE ah, cheers T, you're very welcome ;)
24:13-24:16 "Huh?!" Priceless! Fascinating video. You guys are the best!
Keep in mind that decibels are logarithmic. A 6 dB increase could be quite significant depending on what you're increasing by 6 dB. Good video though! I didn't realize how small a volume difference higher wattage makes.
+slimjimihendrix Put a 5150 120 watt head & Cab up next to AC 30 the PV will eat the AC 30 before you get past 3 & 1/2 on the PV vol.
Watchman4u Wait until you play guitar through a modeling preamp into a bass rig as a power amp. 800+ solid state watts pushing mid range frequencies into a 4x12 could kill a small child. My own 6505 has been chained into my friends peavey bass combo (around 400 watts) and we bout shat our pants you could use the fucker as a fan it pushed so much air
AC30 with the odrive pedal sounded excellent . Learned about the 3db/ double power too.
I've been playing for twenty years. Each time I see your videos I learn something. Thanks ! Keep up the good work.
Old video but I’m not scared.
I have a Marshall DSL401 with a 1 x 12” crap speaker. That’s 40w.
I have a Fender Deluxe Reverb mk4 that I think is 40w with a single 12” V-type.
I have a Vox AC15 with 2 x 12” greenbacks.
Then I have a Orange Dual Terror that can play in 30w, 15w with 4 output tubes or 15w with 2 valves and 7.5w. That’s through an orange 2 x 12” cab.
I use the Fender for my Looper, reverb and delay and then choose whichever dirty amp I fancy as my main tone.
The fender on its own it’s really loud but regardless which amp I pair it with, all my other amps seem louder than the fender. It’s weird. Think it’s just the spiky volume of an amp with headroom that makes it appear louder on its own.
I’m lucky enough to get to play the amps loud at home, some days with all four amps when the wife and kids are out. It’s awesome 😂
Currently playing with the Laney Ironheart- switchable between 1-20 Watts it's bloody lovely to practise at home on 1 and blast open that headroom at 20 when your gigging/practicing, a lot more companies are starting to do this now, from Blackstar to Marshall, thankfully a lot more people are aware of the whole Wattage != louder volumes situation
Low wattage amps rule for home use. I play a blackstar 5 at home at it stays on 0.5 most of the time, and that can be quite loud through a 212 cab. No need for anything bigger when I'm on my own. ✌️🇦🇺
In reality even a 1 watt all valve head into a 4x12 cab is too loud for most bedroom situations as I have found from my JTM1-H, unless you are using pedals to get your sound. Even switched to the 0.1 watt setting it packs a punch. I find the Vox AC15 to be a good pedal platform and the Laney VH100R is just unusable anywhere. I wish there were more all valve amps rated between 1 & 5 watts for home use
I cranked my 100w marshall in my bedroom and my light vibrated and fell out of my roof
They are designed for arenas not bedrooms lol
that's not the amp. it's just a dodgy light fitting :) lol
Dingo Johnson way way back in the 70’s I had this monster Sun amp with a 4x12 cab in my bedroom...it was loud as Fock...one day I cranked it, hit a chord and my bong vibrated off the amp head and hit the floor spilling bong water everywhere...🎸🔊🎶🤘🏻
Man fully cranking my 20 watt shook the entire foundations of the house with every chord
My 10 watt KT88 blackstar can shake the walls of my apartment at 12:00... It's insanely loud for 10 watts
When Mick jumped in with the tasty Hendrix riff... Good lord. That Strat / AC30 / Tumnus combo is unbelievable.
Sound is also logarithmic and, depending on how you're measuring it, it either doubles at 3dB or 5dB(depending on exchange rate.) So, every 3 decibels louder, you're doubling actual volume.h
--a Sound Level Meter salesman.
Another way of explaining it is that you need twice the power (watts) to get a 3 dB increase. And, 3 dB is roughly the smallest increase that is perceptible by the human ear......
Need a decibel comparison show on all amps from 15w to 120w
Played for more than 30 years live. The best tone I ever had live was with 2x12 combo amps with a pre amp pushing it. 1x12 are too thin and boxy no need for more than 40 Watts ever I had a 130 watt amp not much different with 2x12s. Need that fullness with a drummer in my opinion
With all my playing I think a 30 watt tube is the best amp.
Not sure what wattage that is in solid state.
I have a slightly different opinion, played a bunch of live shows myself and I found a 20 W (tube) single 12 does a great job when micd up with a shure SM57.
Getting a good signal to your mixer and then out to your floor monitors allows you to not need to use the amp as a monitor and cuts down on stage noise.
Different strokes different folks
Keep on rockin!
Save 30min: a 20w glass amp will get louder than you can tolerate standing next to. Any room it wont fill, will probably be using a PA. So the answer is 20w will likely exceed any 'need' and anything more is gravy.
11:37....I made that mistake.Could'nt get it past volume 2 on half power mode :-D
I think i've exhausted my brain trying to find an amp for an office in a detached house. I think the best way forward, is a cab, and just get small 1W heads, and switch them out when the needs change.
Magic numbers:
bedroom: 5 watts - 1x 12 speaker
studio: 15 watts - 1 x12 speaker
bars: 50 watts - 2x12 speakers
stages: 100 watts -4x12 speakers
why? because monitors suck... you wanna listen from your amps and speakers. Projection of sound is a sound guy problem. Cover the drummer and listen to yourself. You can't go wrong with theses numbers.
vexguine - so 120w and 8x12 is too much for my bedroom? I’ll be the judge of what’s too much (or little) in my bedroom!
But yes it’s too much, I moved it to the living room.
@@PapaWheelie1 volume is mesured in decibels, not watts or speaker inches. My numbers are based on the subjective concept of "air moving" and not the decibels produced by speakers (because they can't produce any) You can have your 8x12 projecting the same amount of decibels as a 1x12, but the perception of loudness is different (why? lot of factors like effectiveness of speakers measured in db per W/metre and the frequencies covered). Nobody said you can't be your own judge. If you know what works for you, let the guys that don't know have some simple info to decide. My magic numbers are industry standard numbers and if 8x12 works for you in your bedroom, ok. But I can assume you use them for aesthetics (implanted in your brain by decades of marketing) and not acoustics.
@@vexguine - I'm not disagreeing, your chart is totally spot on. A full stack is way too much for a house. But it is fun...
Plus I hate my neighbors.
I have a bar in my studio and my local bar has a stage in it. How should I handle these situations.
@@chrisdee5032 you can't. you are stuck. maybe give up on guitar and start playing the flute?
For tube amps: 1 watt is perfect for home, 5 watts for when no one else is home or you don’t care about your neighbors, 15 watts to be heard with a drum set, 20 to 30 to be able to gig without a good PA, 50 to 100 watts is for a pro that plays a coliseum, or for a blues lawyer that hates the neighborhood
What about the band? Do you cut through (i.e. can the other band members hear you on stage). Tone is one thing, but being heard onstage is another.
That's all to do with frequencies Jake. Volume is certainly a big part of it, but getting the right midrange and presence is really key to cutting through. It's one reason guitar players like Tube Screamers and Klon-types so much for boosts. Likewise if you've ever been to a metal gig and wondered why the guitars sound mushy and indistinct despite the 150-watt Rectifiers (or 8 million watt AxeFX). It's all in the EQ.
Not all metal gigs, we should clarify! Some of those sounds are monstrously mighty! Some...
+That Pedal Show thanks for the response. but do you think you can overcome a squishy amp with a mid boost, or is a more powerfull amp necessary (for cleaner styles of music) in some circumstances?
+jake francis btw I love squishy low watt amps, but my experience is they don't always cut through for the band. That said I've never tried using an aggressive mid boost with them.
You'd need to take away some bass. Low frequencies take more power to amplify than high ones. A Tube Screamer will do that - remove some bass and add mids. It can help the power amp a little bit by relieving it of some of the bottom end, ergo less power taken up by the bottom end, ergo more power for the mids and highs. More clarity. A graphic EQ can work in this regard too.
Great video, very informative! AC15 owner here :) I have a few questions... Are you cranking the power tubes only for that compression? How are the preamp levels set on the amps in the video? Do the preamps play a part in the breakup of that sound or is this grit (i.e. edge of breakup) purely from cranked power tubes? Would it be fair to say that the overdrive/booster pedals act to push and add flavour (depending on it pedal setting) to the preamp past breakup? Hope I made some sort of sense. Cheers!
Sometimes I use a Fender Blues Junior at 15 watt or a DRRI at 22 watt when gigging and I have never struggled for volume.
Really great stuff from you guys. Why didn't you make this video before I put a 100-watt Marshall stack in my bedroom? Oh well.
Because of you guys, I did something yesterday I haven't done in years. I have a BBE Sonic Stomp that I run in the loop. I forced myself to leave if off. I left the red/high gain channel for the clean channel & a distortion pedal. After some tweaking, I was so happy I played for 4-hours straight! I found it odd though that without the BBE, my delays (2 in the loop) were almost inaudible. I had to crank their level knobs to get back to where I was. Please, I'm not knocking the BBE. Just interesting.
Immense thanks to you guys.
That AC10 sounded great at the end there. What an amazing comparison. I think for me the feel of the air moving makes you think it's a bigger better sound but in actual fact once it's miced you are losing elements of that feel you get in the room. Especially noticeable going to in-ears.
I've found the magic number to be 30 watts for live shows. Unmiced you're more than loud enough and the amps compression will sound amazing. Miced, just throw down your favorite od to boost it to the compression you need. For the new guitarist that may read this, please don't waste your money on a 100 watt amp. You simply will not be able to use it effectively. And if you get to the point where you can, most likely you'll have a label that will buy it for you.
Wow! Thanks for a fantastic video. Once again, it's great to watch your videos and learn something new every time - most definitely the most interesting guitar related channel on TH-cam. Please keep up the hard work, it's a pleasure to watch!
I'm really hoping for a similar test (bedroom to stage) that brings transistor amps and digital modelling into the equation, and how they all react with pedals at different volumes. It's not new territory, but it would be great to hear it from your point of view and level of detail.
Other than the BluGuitar demo, I can't recall a video from you guys discussing transistor &/or digital amps. There must be a reason for this and it would be great to hear why.
Hi Chris. The short answer is because given the choice, neither Dan nor me would use a transistor or digital amp over a good valve amp. We've been playing valve amps for over 50 years between us and everything we know is based around them. So we have a balancing job to do with TPS. On the one hand we only do stuff that we love and believe in, and on the other, we should be doing stuff that's of most relevance to people who give us their viewing time. But valve vs tranny vs digi seems like something people would love to see, so consider it on the list! Thank you for watching!
+That Pedal Show I totally appreciate where you are coming from, with you and Mic both growing up with and developing your guitar sound and playing styles using valve amps.
Being born in '91 and starting my guitar journey in the early 00's, I, and I'm sure many of my generation and younger generations, have grown up with transistor amps and digi amps.
This may be why, especially on the TH-cam platform which (arguably) is accessed more by younger generations, you get lots of requests asking for comparisons of tube vs tran vs digital - because many of us have more experience with transistor and digital than we do with Valve.
As a result, opening the door to Valve amps and how they differ is a steep learning curve (which thanks you you guys is becoming a lot easier to understand).
We've just made a decision Chris. Or at least I have (Mick). We're going to make this video with a 'live' audience. We'll find a room somewhere, invite some people along and do the comparison. We'll film it, interview the people on what they thought and make that the video - cool?
+That Pedal Show Very cool! I look forward to seeing the video
+That Pedal Show Please, wait until I can afford the trip!
What kind of a question is that! “How many Watts do you need” here’s the correct answer I need all of them😜
Ah i see. So if you want to get a nice creamy compressed sound it would be easier to do so with a lower wattage amp because you would be reaching it's "peak" sooner than say a 200 watt amp which has more headroom.
+GeoAl09 bingo ;)
@ 7:00 is something I've heard j.mascis saying for a while in interviews
I play small venues and I'm turning up an AC30... Yeah. I'm that guy.
+The Lampshades Yes! We love you. :0)
so,not getting any call backs then?
...and that's why I don't go to local shows anymore.
I mean ive played small venues with a 100w Marshalls and ive seen people play small shows with 200w orange stacks. Its not unheard of lol
Great episode as always! Would be great to have an episode dedicated to Vox AC 15 and Vox AC 30 and difference between Normal, Brilliant, and Top Boost and drive pedals that work well for each ie. treble boost into Normal channel ala Brian May, King of Tone and Klon etc. in Brilliant, and drives for the more finicky Top Boost. Also recently saw a Jackson Ampworks amp on the dumble pedal episode and wondering if you'll be featuring that anytime soon. I don't own one, but I think they are my current favorite amp builder judging by clips I've heard, design, and features. Would be great to see you guys give it a workout! Thanks for what you do. I look forward to every episode!
I wish amplifier companies would stop using wattage and start using decibels to talk about how loud an amp is.
Knights of the Hobby Table except there can be a huge difference between just one number to the next, so it wouldn't really tell you anything useful
On my end of TH-cam, it sounded like the AC10 is a better studio recording sound. The Lonestar was a bit overpowering, but probably suits a live mix better.
More watts = More Fun
Just like the gain equation: More Gain = More Metal
Guys I would appreciate if you can make a video about different Microphones, their positioning and how to use two microphones. Especially between Sennheiser e906, Shure SM57, etc... Cheers!
Very informative and well presented, thank you! (:
I play 90% of my set through a big lovely twin, choppy funk tones for days, but when its go time i hit a switcher and fly off through a cranked jtm45! I am living my actual best life :D
Didn't know Brian Posehn played such good guitar.Metal by Numbers indeed.
I have two tube amps, one is 7 watts one is 100 watts one is loud the other is louder. (FenderBassbreaker 007 & Fender Twin)
To me, since I also run the sound for my band, I find the best overall band sound is minimal stage volume and guitar amps on the sides of the stage pointed at the band just loud enough for the drummer to hear (to avoid having guitars in the monitors), mic'ing them, and letting the PA do the heavy lifting. When its just big cranked amps behind us pointing at the crowd, they only get the full range of the guitar tone to the people directly in front. Mic'd through the PA with the wide-dispersion horns, you get a more even sound over a bigger range of the audience. It takes some getting used to, but the overall mix of the band sounds way cleaner.
or you could just fucking blast it on both
Also, when you just turn up on stage, you cut the heads off the people in the first couple rows and still don't reach the back. The house PA is built specifically to give more consistency over the entire audience, including putting delay on the speakers further from the stage to keep everything in phase. If you have a good house system to run through (granted, you don't always), you're much better off doing so than not, and using it for the majority of your actual power. Then you can just dial up your amp to where it sounds best, not necessarily where it sounds adequately loud.
Charles Johnson we only sing through the PA all that micing is a pain in the arse
Speaking as a guitar player as well as a live tech I am 100% with you! People aren't always mindful that the endgame isn't what comes out of their amp cab but what comes out of the PA. The whole set benefits from a well thought out and balanced guitar rig , a bad one can break otherwise well thought out arrangements.
Having owned and gigged with 15, 22, 30, 40, 45, 50, 60, & 100 watt amps. I find between 22 & 30 watts is the most flexible amp power range to handle MOST gigs. Of course speaker efficiency is a big factor. My current amp is a 68 custom deluxe reverb. At 22 watts it handles most large venues incredibly well. I think the Celestion V type speaker must play as much of a role as the amp!
Ndawg85 agreed however something magical about a 30 or 40 watt 2x12. Much fatter tone than a 1x12 forget cutting the mix
You said, "You can get a great sound out of any decent valve amplifier, regardless of wattage.". I think that is only true if you have a FX send/rec on your amp, which you don't normally find on very low powered tube or SS amps. Blues On....
Interesting Hutch - you don't think the AC10 sounds good?! Thanks for watching!
+That Pedal Show I think it sound great and is a very good amp but varying tonal qualities while playing is greatly enhanced when you can ad a delay or echo, any time based modulation type pedal after the preamp section. Blues On....
Once again Hutch I have to disagree. All the classic guitar tones come from amplifiers without effects loops. Vintage HiWatts, Marshalls, Voxes, Fenders, Orange, the list goes on and on. Check out some of our videos on delay going into the front end. Effect loops can be great but great time certainly doesn't rely on them
That Pedal Show True, but they go into a mixing board with effects in the mixing board and the software as well. That's why studio albums are usually preferred over live albums.. I fully admit that it is All subjective and personal preference. I prefer amps with a great, great clean, a gain, post volume and master volume with a FX loop.
Jimmy Page knew that small amps sound bigger in the studio. Those classic Zeppelin tones on all the albums are small amps.
My buddy always teases me about having too much power. He gigs with a marshall class 5 combo, and my mains are a twin reverb and a 59 bassman 410. It is very rare that I can get either really breathing, but when I can, good lord does it sing.
That being said, my other buddy uses a jtm45/100 and a hw59slp, so I'm not that loud lol
+MrBingping My buddy uses a 6505 120 watts Head and i use a Blackstar ID tvp 100 and i cut through the mix (band volume) with only 40% of my volume while he needs like 60% to be heard
+Tone Pimp1 does he scoop the mids? That's the quickest way to negate volume
yup just that XD and uses a lot of treble i tell him every week that,thats what keeps him out of the mix but well he doesnt understand he thinks it is a volume problem
Another 59 Bassman owner here. Yeah it's a bit loud but sweet lord it sounds good cranked.
Bought/paid for a 20w amp from an online vendor and they accidentally sent a 40w version. I was stoked that I had 20 more watts to play with but after some time I realize that's a minimum of 20 watts that I don't need or use
How about an attenuator through the Mesa?
Does that solve the buyers problem of "do I want high wattage amp or something more practical?"
+Anthony Ziomek If you can only have one amp, then yes Anthony. But a bit like a do-it-all guitar, why would you want that? I'd much rather have a Strat, Tele, Les Paul, 335, Junior, Gretsch //and// a Ricky. Same with amps. The more it does, the more you're compromising each one of those things in my opinion. But yeah, if you've only got space for one amp, get a swiss army knife type!
10-4 roger that! I've had a ac 15 for years now- cash flow has been pretty low but finally going up- thinking of getting a tone king imperial- seems like its pretty versatile- any thoughts?
Mick here - I've loved every Tone King Amp I've ever played. Um, except for the one that looks like a TV, the Falcon (lots of people do love it). The Sky King is magic too, but do try them alongside a Victory V40 and some decent pedals.
thanks for the suggestion much appreciated! you guys ever try the bogner pedals with the Neve transformer? I got my hands on the harlow and the wessex and they literally brought my single coils to LIFE- if you know any info on what makes those transformers so different from others- please share- very interested
hey Mick, which pickups do you have on your strat ? it sounds great !
Let's all take a moment to acknowledge Mick and Dan's ongoing tinnitus. Your sacrifice is appreciated and I think I want an AC15 now. 😂🤘
This demo made me by a a reissue AC10!
Jordan Kent are you happy with it?
Yes, it sounds great in my bedroom.
Ever gigged it? How'd it do? thinking about doing the same
I can totally relate to this demo and the concept of "it's not how many watts but what you do with them." My (then) teenage son once asked me which was my loudest amp, so I decided to try them all out and see for ourselves. In my music room I had a Mesa Boogie Mark IV, a Marshall 30 watt combo with 2-10" speakers, a Marshall 60 watt head into a 4x10 cab, a Line6 Spyder 100W with 2x10, and a 15watt Vox Nighttrain head into a 4x10 Marshall cab. Which amp was the loudest ? Hint: it wasn't the Mark IV. It was the Vox Nighttrain on the 15watt full power setting. Absolutely ear-splitting, couldn't stand in the room volume. The Mark IV Dimed on highest power setting didn't even come close. The Marshall 60watt head was second loudest, followed by the Boogie and then the 30watt Marshall. The Line6 came in last place both in terms of volume and well, everything else.
And now I need to buy a 100W tube amp...
Sometimes, you just need 100 watts :)
As much as I've learned watching this; I wish you two had ear plugs. I've lost a lot of my hearing due to my career choices, and I'm doing my best to preserve what I have. Great informative video... God bless!
What wattage is good for gigs
+Lawson Vaughan Did this video not answer that?
That Pedal Show not sure it was a lot of info
It depends where you play...if you're playing in squats with no pa or unmiced amps a half stack is good..if it's miced a 15-30 watt tube amp is easily enough
one of the best explanations - thank you guys! Now send me a gift! :)
I use a Blackstar Artisan 15 and have never had it higher thanabout 10 o'clock on the volume at a gig, it would just swamp the stage volume and kill all the stage mics and ruin the overall band sound. At low volume it is spikey sounding, but at rehearsal/gig volume it sounds full and on the verge of breakup and perfect for gain stacking and volume riding ... We did turn up at a gig once (about 120 capacity venue) and another band turned up with a full 100 Watt stack. The guy ruined the sound of his band and the 120 all left for the bar!
In the end if a guitarist is a part of a band they can't see it as a power or volume competition, the ego has to give way to the whole band sounding good.
+Russell Jones I've got the same amp (Blackstar Artisan 15) and find exactly the same. It easily keeps up with an un-mic'd drummer, even though from about 11 o'clock onwards it doesn't get much louder, just fatter and bigger sounding.
I do think the Artisan 15 is a bit of an oddity (in a good way) in this regard. It sounds less like a "small amp", and more like a "big amp that just happens to only be 15 watts". Recorded you could easily mistake the sound it makes for a big cranked Marshall.
I used to have a Laney VC15, and it definitely sounded like a "small amp" (boxy midrange, not much headroom, didn't really cut through). The Artisan 15 in comparison sounds big and full, even though it's the same wattage as the Laney. I'm sure the Artisan 15's big transformers (for a 15 watter), 12-inch Greenback and large ply cabinet all play a part here.
Just goes to show that there really is a difference between a "big" sound and a loud one.
I find the same, I used to play a Fender Blues Jr and that sounded much more boxy and not nearly as powerful, despite the same wattage. I wouldnt use the Artisan at home as it just doesnt sound as nice at low volume, but for gigging or recording it's brilliant!
Loudness isn't as cool as it once was...its cooler to play super quite, you want people leaning forward to hear. Joking aside, when is there a scenario where there is enough space in the venue for you to turn up your amp and there isn't a sound system? Its either a small venue where a lower watt amp is going to sound just right or it will be big enough and there will be a sound system. Most of the time there is a sound system anyway
The 30 watt amp is 20 louder than the 10 watt amp. Thought this was common knowledge?
A great video as always. I've made those faces with those amps as well. My AC 15 killed me and while I don't own a Lonestar I did get to play them often at my last job. The Lonestar is probably my favorite Boogie that's made, which is funny because i'm a rock/metal guy! :D The Lonestar Special is a lot of fun too. The Lonestar series are basically a Mark 1 with 2 channels, so it's a great tone, it started the company after all. :)
Why not buy a large wattage amp and take out power tubes if you need the perks of less wattage? ie. The 100W vs 50W Marshall question.
That is why you get a power attenuator. Crank the volume to get the pre-amp hot and power tubes working and use the attenuator as your volume control.
Watts are overrated, most guitarist don't know it takes five times the wattage to get double the perceived loudness. A 100 watt amp is not double the loudness of a 50 watt amp. A 100 watt amp is maybe two times louder than a 20 watt amp. What really matters is pushing air through the speakers. So if you want it loud get a 4x12 cab and a twenty watt amp or 30 watt. And you will still be asked to turn it down from a sound guy or club owner or your neighbors. With modern PA systems you can do any gig there is with a 15-40 watt amp. These days I would never buy an amp with more than 50 watts. Besides to get real overdrive from power tubes the amp needs to get turned up very loud, much too loud for most occasions. so 30 is perfect. to have headroom or crack it. I like having a 15 watter, a 30 watter and a 45 watter like a fender bassman.
i play mostly heavy-ish stoner/metal/punk music, using tunings no higher than e flat, predominantly drop C# and the odd baritone. so would a 15 watt valve amp, through a decent 212 be loud enough for various sized gigs and with fairly frequent use of fuzz, such as the Walrus Audio Jupiter V2 Fuzz? and the occasional lower octave from a micro pog?
sorry if that is too much info, or not enough important info but im seriously looking at a small selection of portable valve heads around 15-20w
Any suggestions?
Dylan Brown
a few things
do you want your main distorted tone coming from your pedals or your amps natural compression?
do you want high headroom amps that dont take fuzz as well and dont distort naturally?
or low watt amps that sacrifice low end frequencies but take fuzz well and compress naturally?
its give and take.
15 watts is definitely loud enough. but that not the real question you should be asking.
in all honesty the only way to define your sound is to get your hands on the amps and test them with your gear.
sorry for the non answer. and good luck.
He's right. You might be able to get away with cranking a 100 watt amp at practice and at underground shows but once you start playing at clubs, you absolutely will not be able to crank it passed 3. I had a 50 watt and played a gig at the house of blues and the sound guy had me on 4. Safe bet is 30 watts max.
Will 120 watt 5150 full Stack w/100watt Sheffield speakers @ 16 oms. 2 4x12 cabs cover a home studio 200 sq ft ?
Speaker efficiency is huge. A 100 watt amp into a '97db at one watt speaker' (G12t-75) is 'less loud' than a 50 watt amp into a '103db at one watt speaker' (jbl e120)....that is 6 db difference...more than the 3 db disparity in wattage. 30 watts is 5db below the 100, so in this speaker example the 30 would be 1 db louder than the 100...or about the same. I just grab the low efficiency cab when the gig is smaller.
+TheDogpa That is an immensely smart way to do it Dogpa. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Very true.
Love you guys, and I think you'll agree it's a bit useless to try to demonstrate relative volume on a platform (youtube) which will compress the volume anyway. Great info re: the relative compression in terms of power tubes, though. I use a 13 watt Fender Excelsior for every gig I play, small stages to large, and am often asked to turn down (damned vocalists!!) I have argued on youtube with people who say there's no way you can gig with even a 15 watt amp. The key is that if a speaker (or cab) you use is just 3db more efficient, it's the same effect as doubling your wattage on your amp. Also, if you're using a lots of clean tones, sure, more wattage gives you more headroom. Having said that, if you want clean and get all your sound from your pedals, buy a solid state amp!! Better cleans, more headroom, lighter and cheaper!
This is probably the most informative video on amps I've ever seen. Thanks guys!
I don't play live anymore so the amps I buy are TOO loud even at 40 watts. I just bought the NUX mg300 and get great sounds from a $300au bit of kit through a Fender Bandmaster (40watts) an Egnater Rebel 20 and an Ibanez TS 15. You don't have to spend squillions of $$ anymore to get a good home tone. That NUX mg 300 is fantastic.
How about using a baffle on big amps to stop spill?
I use 15 watt blues junior for small gigs and a twin for big gigs, cause I need clean Strat tones.
Volume on guitar very important too on small amps to get a clean tone.
Great video
+Terry O'Malley I have the same exact Blues Jr with the 1X12. Plenty of volume for my small club gigs, and the tone is very sweet~ and of course if I want stage presence with a loud band, I do switch to a 100-120watt amp. but I absolutely LOVE this Fender Blues Jr.!
I've always wanted to compare 2 small amps to 1 big one.: 2 Princetons vs 1 Deluxe, 2 Deluxes vs 1 Pro or Vibroverb, 2 Pro Reverbs vs 1 Twin..
I've done this and two small amps sound great!
hahaha, seems like I got lucky! I got a 150w marshall when I was new because I wanted an amp with a master volume that could get the same tone at low and high volume. I didn't know anything though, it just happened to work like that! :D
I like how they're trying to prove a point and then the mesa still sounds better lol
I picked up a Rivera pubster 25 today and it’s going to replace my deville 2x12 60w. My neighbours love it
How about a wet/dry setup with a Marshall Origin 5 and a Vox AC4? That'd be plenty loud with lots of singing compression.
What a great video, as always! I use a 15 watt Matchless for the breakup and a Fender Twin for clean. There is a rig rundown on youtube from Brian May, he always runs many AC30's flatouts with a treblebooster and controls the drive with his volume. Yes pedals are great, but nothing beats some stacked AC30's, that must be terrifyingly loud, but hey we are all mortals..... Questions though: 1) an Amp that almost breaks ups without a drive control sounds better when cranked up compared to an amp that you increase the drive control. Why? 2) What impact does class A versus AB have? 3) Difference between a booster/ overdrive versus treblebooster.
Hello, thanks for the questions. 1) Not always. But we think you're referring to when you drive a preamp really hard with the master turned down and it sounds small and fizzy. You've got loads of squash and compression and reduced dynamic range in the preamp, so when it gets to the power section there's not much scope to make it dynamic, loud and so on. You'll find that if you turn the master to max and set the level with the preamp gain, it'll sound pretty good. 2) Depends entirely on the rest of the amp's configuration, but that's a topic we may investigate soon. Class A, less power, quicker compression and lower headroom. AB the opposite, but not always! 3) The treble booster only boosts a specific portion of the frequency range. A lot of overdrive/boosters boost a wider range of frequencies, depending on the unit. Hope that all helps! Thanks for watching. Mick
Ps, AWESOME rig. Bet it sounds heavenly!
At home ? 5 max.
This was amazing. I love your approach to sharing information.
But PLEASE know this. We will not think any less of you for wearing ear protection of some kind.
Cool video! I play once a year with my jobs band. Last year I bought a Tone King Imperial MKII, I was surprised that I did not need to set it much louder than on my home office (Attenuator on -15 dB). Sound guy was extremely happy, and volume on stage was clear and pleasant :) That said, our drummer uses electric drums, so the stage volume is much easier to control :)
I mostly run a Mesa Mark V and almost exclusively run it in 45 watt mode, which I think is the best wattage option on that amp. 10 watt can be fun but doesn't quite have the headroom to compete with drums although I do use that mode regularly in the studio. 45 watt, I can open it up, most of the time, to it's sweet spot. The only time I've ever legitimately run it at a gig in 90 watt mode was a 25 year reunion last year of my high school thrash band ;) (pretty disappointed they didn't put a wattage option below 60 on the new Petrucci signature Mesa or I'd be eyeing that one as it's got a great sound and feature set.) BUT, I also have a Fender Blue Jr that does duty in many a restaurant/small club setting and even then, I have to throttle that puppy WAAAAY back so I have a separate (non-G2) board where all of the tone is in the pedals.