FX LOOP BUFFERS (turn your passive FX Loop into an active one) Vertex Boost MKII: bit.ly/3fIRxQa Kleinulator: www.therigdr.com/products/the... Fuchs Plush FX Loop Buffer: www.adorama.com/pftubefxloop.... MANUFACTURERS WITH GREAT FX LOOPS Rivera: www.rivera.com Mesa Boogie: www.mesaboogie.com Suhr: www.suhr.com Fuchs: fuchsaudiotechnology.com Friedman: friedmanamplification.com Custom Audio: bit.ly/3fNZ2p4
Very informative (as always) and cool that you have demystified what & how the FX loop works. Any chance y'all could make a short video about using a clean boost in the loop as a quasi attenuator? (Lots of talk but not much fact about doing this)
This is the first video that explained the fact that you don't need to use the FX loop if you're keeping the amp clean and using overdrive pedals. Thank you! That clears it up for me.
I really appreciate you taking the time to make this video. I’m sure at some point I will understand it. That day is not today but I was able to figure out how to actually play this video which I will count as a win🤙🤘
Mason these videos are absolutely fantastic 👏 full of really great information and I've fixed issues with my own Big pedalboard thanks to these videos 👍🏼
A very well spoken young man who doesn't uhhh and ummm his way s.l.o.w.l.y through the entire damn video. And he knows his shit too!! Perfect combination 👍 subscribed....
Man , that cleared up the of the BS ive been told about this topic. My Prinston doesn't have an FX Loop because it doesn't need one. Ive had guys tell me I made a mistake buying it, evan though it sounds fantastic. You just cleared the air. If the overdrive is coming from a pedal then you don't need a loop. THANK YOU....
Thanks, Mason. I found it helpful. Especially since I was planning surgery (converting passive loop to active) and now can consider using a outboard add-on instead.
subbing this channel right now! 3 things i've learned from this are 1) there's ALOT i don't know. 2) the sweet sweet sound i get from my amp, i found by happy accident. 3) i'm going to need to watch this video at least one more time to fully understand all that you laid out. if there was such a thing as a "tone course" or class, it would be highly beneficial, and you'd be a great teacher.
As always, very instructional video I have a clean setup and I like to use the effects loop because the coloration of the preamp, the EQ section of my preamp of my clean amp colors, my tone and so I want all of that coming through the effects loop instead of having those. Effects. Before that coloration, but I agree that mostly you probably don't need it unless for those reasons
Great talk, Mason! I actually have an old 2 channel amp that has separate passive send/returns for the clean and OD channels. I had a Moss at Brown Note (long gone...) build me a single rack space, DOUBLE Dumble-ator device, so that I'd have one for each side of the amp. It's tube based, and works wonders with maintaining my tone.
Really enjoy your show. The only thing I run through my effects loop is a noise gate / suppressor. This way my delay, reverb units are not affected by the noise gate / suppressor. I don't run a 15:29 big pedal board and have only one pedal ( overdrive ) that is a little on the noisy side. I've always run my pedals in front of the amp.
Thank you so much for clearing that up for me. I set up my pedal board to run through a PA and when I experimented with my amp at home trying to use the effects loop it sounded better just running it though the amp and not through the loop. Now I feel better knowing why. Great tutorial!
I have a MXR micro amp in my effects loop, great for a volume boost without adding any drive, also I like tremolo and chorus in the loop but phaser in the front, I have one reverb in the loop and a crazy hall reverb in the front. Do whatever you want really, I tried like 20 combos before I found what I wanted.
Wow, this was fantastic! Didn't realize there was so much about effects loops, thankfully the one in my amp is active even though I never thought to check for it before
Hi Mason, as always your videos are worth every second! I'd like to ask a question hoping that you can help me! I bought a 40w point to point tube amp second hand ( a D'Angelo one) that has an effects loop with a pot on the back; the person who sold me it said a couple of strange things about the loop in this amp: it's an active one ( ok); It doesn't sit between preamp and power amp but it is a part of the preamp ( what? Is this possible?); it's not meant to be used with pedals but just with "always on" effects like delays and reverbs ( it could make sense); it's an unusual fx loop because it runs in series but sometimes switches to parallel and the other way around ( what???). I tried a delay through it and it was fine except for the "popping" sound when engaging or disengaging ( solved with a dc filter). I also tried to jump it with a patch cable and the knob acts like some sort of master volume or volume box, from zero to full, ( even with delays in the loop it doesn'control the mix of the effect but still the volume). I've also tried a volume box in the loop, the jhs little black box, and the sound is as quite identical as the jumped loop.I'll appreciate to know what you think about it ( obviously up to where is possible without seeing the amp or the schematics!). Thanks a lot🙏
I appreciate your videos and catch them when I can. As usual, there is a lot of good information here. I have a few (very) basic questions: I have an older Fender Concert amp with the buffered effects loop. I assume that is not a solid state loop, but if you would, please confirm. And I also assume, based on the video, that I should use that effects loop for time based effects, but not for my compressor, distortion and EQ pedals. Thanks again for your insightful videos!
Great vid! I run a Line 6 HXFX with a 2004 JCM 2000 DSL 50 and I use its effects loop with 4cm. Each of the 4 cables is 22' long. I definitely experience tone loss using the HXFX into the effects loop. Is the Kleinulator what I need to correct this? I LOVE my amp and the HXFX on their own, but, together they are more rrama than the Kardashians. Thanks for your advice!
I play jazz w/archtops. I just bought Quilters DirectAmp to go directly into the boards at Festivals. I have a simple rig: Poloy Tune in to guitar input, MXR Tremolo, and Boss RV-6 stereo into the effects loop. Do I need a second buffer? I've been adjusting the gain on the Tremolo to match the DirectAmp without the loop engaged.
Hello Mason. I'll never get tired to thank for your videos. I would like to make a very important question for me. If I want to use: compressor (for limiting peaks of my Hot Rod Deville), graphic Eq, reverb, delays, volume box and a booster, in what order should I place them? Thanks in advance
An amazing video! You should really do a video compare of a passive effects loop and long cables versus an amplifier with an active buffered loop and the same long cable setup. Also dive more into the Klein-ulator. I don't see many TH-cam videos about it. I just bought one and it's solved my tube amp buzzing issue. I'll be doing a video on that soon.
@@VertexEffectsInc agreed. My Peavey VB-2 has the same flaw as the ValveKing amps where there is a buzz with the master vume at 0 or 5, but all the way up at 10. It is because since there is no buffer in the loop, those high impedance resistors in it couple with the volume pot and pickup stray noise. Jumpering the loop bypasses those resistors and eliminates the noise. The Kleinulator does the same by loading down the loop to low impedance eliminating the noise.
I have a Elmwood Modena m60 (which is easily the best and most flexible amp I’ve ever owned in 30 years of playing) and it has a series/parallel tube buffered loop. It’s the best loop I’ve ever used cuz I love running my time based pedals blended with the dry tone. But it doesn’t have volume pots for send and return. It only has a series/parallel dry/wet pot. I usually run it about 50% wet/dry and it’s dead quiet. Thanks for the vid
Just ordered a Mesa Boogie MarkV. Is that effects loop any good? Looking to add a few Boss Waza Craft pedals to it (Delay, Chorus, vibrato and RC-500 loop)
Thank you Mason, this was very helpful! I have a line level passive effects loop and was looking at something like the Kleinulator but just moved my reverb/delay to the end of my chain going straight into my amp b/c I just run my amp clean anyways. i prefer this so i can plug my board into whatever and keep my tone as opposed to depending on the dirty channel from my particular amp... so ultimately you almost sold me a Kleinulator but by the end of the video you made me realize I have no need for the effects loop entirely... THANK YOU!
Curious about something. I have always seen Compressors in front of the pre on a tube amp, but I know many blues players who like to have the pre set to edge of breakup. Play light and it is clean and dig in and get the crunch. If a compressor is in front, it seems like that limits the dynamic range of soft to loud hitting the pre, depending on how low the threshold is set and how much compression is used. In this situation, if you had a proper level FX loop, would a compressor make sense at the beginning of the FX loop to make up some gain of the volume difference between strumming lightly and strumming harder. It might seem counterintuitive to the guitarist since you assume it will get quieter when you strum lighter, but it seems like having the ability to have a more consistent volume and just altering your attack on the strings would be helpful. I am not saying the gentle picking should be as loud as a full hard strum, but compressing some of the dynamics, after the pre has done its thing with regard to dirt, would bring up the volume of the softer strumming that is clean to be closer to the volume of the harder strumming that gets dirtier in the pre. Does this make sense? I am going to do some experimenting, but I only have an old GNX1 that has a compressor, so probably not the greatest test subject.
Hi Maxon. Please forgive my ignorance. I have a question for you. I understand that my amp (Hot Rod Deville ML) one exactly like the one in your video, has an External Effects Loop built in, also a Preamp Out option and a Power Amp In as well. I've purchased The Sheriff Pedal Preamp, but I'm not sure how to connect it to my amp. According to Victory, the best way to use the Sheriff is from the pedal's Loop input to the amp's Effects Loop send and from the pedal's Loop output to the amp's Effects Loop return, but I've noticed that my amp only has one external Effects Loop. Does this mean I can't use the pedal this way, which Victory say is the most recommended? Thank you in advance for your time. looking very forward to your reply. 🙏🙏
You mention how a lot of modulation effects should be in front of the preamp and I totally agree for phase and univibes and chorus but I still prefer flange in the loop post the preamp stage. Sometimes I'll put a chorus there too, but usually leave that out front.
I think about a lot of the classical sounds that we base our preference off of for effects like chorus, Flange, etc. Guys like EVH, Andy Summers, The Cure, etc. All those were in front of an amplifier. It's preferential, no "Right Way" but I typically recognize those effects more in that position and generally they're used more clean than dirty anyway.
@@VertexEffectsInc except Cobain used chorus straight in front of a dirty amp and as you said EVH used everything into a cranked Marshall, people think too much about it instead of just going with their ears. Keep up the good work demystifying this stuff for people just getting into it, there’s a lot of people on forums who have opinions without basis.
My Revv G20 has a wonderful buffered FX loop. Seems like Orange uses nice buffered loops on some amps too; the loop on my wife's Crush Bass 50 drives a DI box like a champ!
I have a Mesa Boogie Fillmore 50 head. It has a buffered/active effects loop, so can I assume that the 20’ cable run from the effects loop Send TO my pedal board (delay and reverb only with other effects on the front end rather than in the loop)? If so, do I still need a buffer after the reverb (last time based effect) before the 20’ cable going back to the loop return on my amp? Even with a buffered pedal I assume a quality buffer will give me better results than just trusting the pedal’s buffer. This is a great video! Your info is very comprehensive and well presented. Well done! Thanks!!
I have a Quilter Superblock US. But I cannot find info on if the effects loop is buffered or active..do you know? Additionally, what do you think about me putting the Superblock on my pedal board and running a speaker cable to my cabinet? Does that need a buffer? I wanted everything in one place and am trying to avoid power cable spaghetti. Finally, THANK YOU for all of this incredible content. We're lucky to have access to your incredible expertise-very grateful.
Not sure how they're doing it. Maybe email them. Also, since it's pedalboard based it may not be that much of a problem anyway since the cables are so short.
Every video on this channel is suuuper informative and helpful, but this one in particular was a lifesaver. Thanks for the awesome video! It would be sick if you could get your hands on a fender engine room and shed some light on its pros and cons. 12 outputs at 500ma at $250 seems amazing
Outstanding presentation!!! My quest to go from a digital effects processor (GNX 3) to stomp boxes had me doing research prior to purchasing any effects boxes. It turns out my Marshall AVT 275's effects loop is set up to run in parallel. My first three stomp boxes that I am wanting to purchase are a phaser and chorus in front of the amp and an echoplex in the loop. But looking at the echoplex and other delay pedals there doesn't seem to be a sensitivity knob. There is an effects loop "mix " knob on the front of the amp, which according to the manual is used to "increase the amount of effect you hear"..... I just wonder if I'm wasting my money on the echoplex or any pedal that I decide to put in the loop without it having a sensitivity knob..... I am already considering adding reverb to the loop chain after this initial set up. Thank you again for your great channel.
Typically with a parallel fx loop you'll run the wet effects in the loop 100% wet and then mix that with the dry signal with some sort of blend control on the amp itself.
How familiar are you with the HX Stomp effects loop? I want to run my drives in it so I can put the expression in front of them for pitch shifters, vol, and wah.
Mason, I have an Marshall Artist 3203 30w Head and I run a Avid Eleven Rack for all my effects. Would you recommend running the Eleven Rack through the FX Loop of the Marshall?
Depends if it can take the impedance...could be a cool Wet/Dry option if the Eleven Rack has a mixer so you can do 100% wet effects in parallel with the mixer.
Great video as usual Mason I’ve been using FX lives for years and I agree there’s good ones bad ones and maybe stuff in between in the better amps I’ve had to have better effects loops… But what about those of us who predominantly play on a worship band and have to go direct… Not using an amplifier at all. Are used to use a two notes Le-Clean which had a effects loop build in no questioning how good it was but it seemed good but you couldn’t control any kind of levels on it so I don’t know… Now I’m acoustic rig I use a Radial Tonebone PZ Pre, seems to be a really good quality effects loop. Now for my electric rig the brains of it is a Stroman iridium… No effects loop not sure how to handle that
Great info and thanks I needed to hear this. I just acquired my dream tube amp (bogner uberschall) i love the clean and dirty channel of it but damn the effects loops sounds terrible "tone sucked, muddy, compressed and noisy", running it in a 4cm every cable 15ft with headrush gigboard processor. It's a series loop with a send out level knob in the back and when using the fx loop your volume channels acts as the fx send level meaning it's almost impossible running it loud without getting the signal too hot 🔥, I find the kleinulator quite promising . Do you have any experience with loops such this one, do you think the kleinulator or anything else could potentially help this situation 🥲 Thanks.
So given that you want to put time based effects after the distortion generating gain stage, what if a guitar player was trying to push for power amp distortion instead of pre amp distortion? If I were to use the FX loop in that context, wouldn't I be facing the same issue as putting a reverb in front of a distorting pre amp? Would that mean that I need to mic up the amp without the reverb and run the signal through an outboard FX unit instead? (or more practically nowadays, I'd probably be driving the power amp hard but running the speaker out into a loadbox such as a Torpedo Captor X, after which I can run the line out signal into a time-based FX unit then. Would that be your advice? Thanks!
@@VertexEffectsInc Mason, I have to tell you, this one helped me get rid of a buzz in my chain after a lo-o-ong time. Now I realy understand how's and why's, and I have a consequent preset now between gain via pedal or the IRT amp itself, and even the Swedisch chainsaw combination of amp and the HM2. For the rest very nice delay swells and reverbs and again combinations with the gain. Compression only in rare occasions, I rather play with intonation. Where and when do you use compression or can you recommand one of your clips about that topic? (boss cp-1x is the one at the start of my chain) Kind regards from Belgium
Love your channel. I have one critique. Please get rid of the annoying "pop" sounds. Please! It distracts from what your saying and, in my situation, forces me to lower the volume because the "pop" volume is louder than your voice.
What if your using some gain from the amp for your clean sound. I have a Fender hotrod Deluxe tube amp. I like using just a touch of gain with my clean sound?
Hello! You are right about Boss pedals.I have just taken off 3 of them off my pedalboard and my tone came back. It seems the only one working fine in front of the amp and in the effects loop are the Waza Craft type.I guess they have good buffer 1M/100K.Same as the EQ Devices. By plugging and unplugging the return of the effects loop for comparison gave me a proof of what Boss pedals can do to a guitar tone.Too many will suck tone.They were replaced by EQ Devices.. It seems now they all talk to one and other properly on the pedalboard. Thx and have a good life!
I'm putting together a new setup strictly for home use -- 10' cable from guitar into polytune w/ buffer, a bunch of true bypass pedals, Bonafide output buffer to pre-amp, 10' cable from FX send to a multi-effect pedal (used just for modulation/time) and a looper, 10' cable back to return (I use Ernie Ball cables, mostly). My home amp (Orange OR-15) has a 12AT7 buffered FX loop. Is this sufficient buffering for that part of the signal chain, or should I add additional buffering? If the latter, where should that buffer go?
Great video! Got me thinking a lot about my FX loop. I don't know much about this topic but I find it fascinating. I also have not looked at my amps schematics. But I assumed that if I am on the gain channel ... my drive control (pot) is before the pre amp out (send) and the master volume is after the send just before the power amp section. So would that not function the same as using a buffered FX loop or am I just way out in left field?
There's no standard to where these volume controls are on the amplifier. The Master volumes can be in different places in the signal path depending on the design. In some cases you can use your amp controls to compensate for make up gain or loss in the loop, but it's still a compromise and you have to set your amp level in a way that optimizes the loop but not necessarily the distortion you want or the output you want. All things being equal, you want a buffered effects loop if you're going to use wet effects in the loop.
Bassist here. What about modulated reverbs? Or something like the TE-2 : imean, what is that anyway? I have a rumble 100-im guessing that has a passive loop. when i put the delay in front of the amp it rings/squeals; what the heck is that? (Maybe it was something else i don't know, i stopped trying to put the delay in front). It sounds like i need a boost/buffer yes?
Hey! Just watched this. Great bits of info here. Thank you! I have a question/comment or two though... I've recently obtained a DOD Rubberneck Analog Delay pedal which has a single TRS jack FX loop running at instrument level built into the pedal (TRS to Y). I'm looking to run my board in front of a clean amp and was wondering what I should consider doing per what was mentioned in the video, as I'm currently thinking of using said FX loop to loop in, if you will, my Holy Grail nano reverb at that point of my boards signal chain. Or, if there's other effects I should run though this loop, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on that too.
The effects loop on the delay is to add effects that only colour the delay lines (not your dry signal). It has nothing to do with how you'd run the effects loop in an amp.
Excellent information!!!!! I have a Fender Twin Reverb and a Marshall 410. So now you have clarified why things can sound good or bad. So for the Fender I don't use the effects loop which is great. But pedal order is still important. I have to experiment with my Marshall. I have the Echo Plex Delay and Hall of Fame pedals on the Effects loop. In front of the amp they just cut everything out. However I have an Electric Mistress Flanger and Chorus combo pedal that sounds ok in the loop but I should try in front of the amp. I guess if it was good enough for Eddie it should be good for me?!!!!!
There are preferential difference here. Some like Mod in the loop...I don't personally. When I think about guys like Andy Summers and their EHX Electric Mistress sound I think "why do it any different"???
@@VertexEffectsInc Wow...I just experimented with my Electric Mistress Flanger/Chorus pedal in front of the amp. What a difference!!!! Yeah ...it definitely gives me the Andy Summers sound even though I have a Japanese Strat!!!!! Thanks for the information...I am now jamming out on Roxanne and Message in a Bottle much better!!!!
Mason, why does the Fender Hot Rod Deville ML (Michael Landau) amp have an FX loop? There is no drive channel on this amp, two clean channels. If you are getting no high gain/distortion from the preamp, why have the FX loop? Usually for clean amps I put everything in front of preamp?
Hi, thanks for this another useful video! As you know some of the marshall's combos have no reverb, i'm about to buy a marshall origin 20 combo, it has the fx loop, i do use some distortions (fuzz, ts9 or marshall jackhammer) but i would like to use the saturation of the amp itself... so I would like to ask you what you suggest for this circumstance: do you think that it is better poot on fx loop the reverb (and delay) o just follow the pedal board chain? thanks again, cheers
what is cool you tube and your vedioes I wonder how many music stores have lost guitar instructors and me when I get info from TH-cam I alway send some cash when I have it I think it's the way to say thanks for getting info for free if I had youtube and a cell back in the day >would be in Nashville or playing a/the whisky a gogo I would of probly been one of the band members of the Greatfull Dead why I say this? because finally I get it the language of music..
And then a light came on! This video was VERY helpful in getting me to understand I don't need to include an FX loop in my single-channel, pedal platform amp build! :D 😂
Hey Mason, are you implying that the fx loop in the Quilter is bad? Asking cause I have a Tone Block 202 and I do all my time base effects trough it and now m not sure if I should, since in your vid you use the Quilter basically of an example of a none good fx loop. So I’m now thinking if I need to try to change my set up options Thank you
I’m not sure where that’s insinuated, I’m actually not sure about their effects loop I haven’t done any extensive testing on it, from what it appears, it seems like it’s a passive loop, not sure about the signal coming out of it, but I’m sure you could ask them
@@VertexEffectsInc sometimes images can distort people’s messages, now I understand yuo just used your Quilter as a prop, thx for the clarification and will look up for that info with them. Thx for the informative videos !
Nice video. Slightly unrelated -I have a question regarding using a rackmount effects unit, in conjunction with pedals. With the set up of the pedals and rackmount before the amp, to reduce potential pedal noise (hum) would it be better to run the pedals in front of the rackmount or after it?
Totally made sense - excellent video thank you Mason. 😎 Question: If your amp doesn't have an effects loop and you think you need one, how well does Swiss Things (Earthquaker Devices) work? With the onboard boost, 2x separate loops, it seems to meet much of the criteria on the basis it works as described. Also, I've spoken with Roger out here, seems the MKII is still another 2 weeks away. Given he's no longer the distributer he wasn't 100% certain, but knows 1 will be for me. 👍 Cheers. 🎸🎸🎸
I don't think it's designed for this application or the types of levels that are found in effects loops. Also the specs aren't that great as line drivers at 1K output. I think they're using a TL072 or a BJT buffer on these. You really need something designed to be used as an effects loop buffer like the Klein-ulator. We just got them finished...had a little delay at customs in LAX to get our pots out of there but we're shipping them this week and Hot Apple (our Aussie distro) has a shipment leaving on Friday or Monday with them.
@@VertexEffectsInc Ok...thanks for the info Mason. 😎 Yup, they do use a BJT buffer! I'll wait on Roger to get his stock in. He's a good guy and said with his schedule he was unable to give Vertex the attention it deserved so passed on the dealership. Also spoke highly of you. I actually don't know Hot Apple by name. I will look them up. Perhaps that's not altogether surprising as is often the way between behind the scenes wholesalers and the face of retail. I hope they work out well for you here. All the best. 🎸🎸🎸
@@nostro1001 BJT isn't great for driving a lot of capacitance neutrally...not what I'd recommend. Rodger is the BEST! Love that guy and can't wait to do some clinics out there when this is all over! Hot Apple is also great, they deal with most of the big shops in Oz and were connected with us by Rodger. Thanks for watching!
@@VertexEffectsInc That is a brilliant idea...combine some biz, with a vacation. And no doubt you'd have contacts where accommodation isn't gonna impact too heavily. Roger is driving distance from 2 of the most picturesque beach zones in Australia, although both completely different: 1 mega commercial and attracts visitors from all over the world, the other almost the opposite - somewhat of a hidden jewel (still). We aren't likely to be opening borders anytime soon unfortunately. Whilst we've managed the situation arguably the best in the world, along with NZ, vaccination roll out has started really slowly for a variety of reasons. But, please do put a trip out here on your bucket list. 😎 👌 BLT buffers often spoken about as if they are the best all purpose buffers out there, so thanks for the heads up in terms of this usage. Cheers man. 🎶🎸
The education I needed 👍🤘 I run a clean amp so no loop for me. Good thing cuz my amp doesn’t have one 😄. I was thinking of adding one. You just saved me a ton of headache.
I actually have an example of a time when you would want to use an effects loop even though you are using pedal distortion into a clean amp: when you have a parallel effects loop (in my case, I use a Boss Katana Artist MKii, which can switch to serial or parallel), and you want to use a different amp (In my case, a 1979 Peavey Classic 100 combo 50w 2x12) for wet signals. I run the Boss effects output into a Tone City Tape Machine delay pedal, and the output from the delay pedal is ran into the Peavey input. Then I use the Peavey's onboard reverb and trem, which I'm able to really crank to a level I couldn't dream of if I were using a dry signal in the Peavey or trying to use the Katana's onboard reverb or trem. Anyway it's a poor man's wet/dry setup. My signal chain is Ram's Head Big Muff Pi nano into Xotic USA E.P. Booster into no-name Klon clone from Wish into Arion Tubulator into Boss BD-2 Blues Driver into Tone City Comp Engine compressor into Tone City Golden Plexi distortion into the Boss Katana's clean channel. I usually use the booster pedal and blues driver for the Les Paul and the Klon for the Strat, and everything but the Big Muff has the drive all the way down. If you read this far, you get an attaboy. Point is, it's unconventional but sounds epic and yuge.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes true. I have to use the effects send for the wet because I am using the line out to send to the Tascam Model 24 for both PA signal and as an interface. I record the input signal from the Boss as well as the room mic channels and the hall mic channel, so I can choose how saturated the final guitar signal is (usually hardly at all, but it's there if-and-when I need it). It's interesting: when practicing I like plenty of bigness and multiple delays and multiple reverbs, but when I record a song and do post-production, I invariable end up editing all that washy, time-based stuff out.
What would you recommend for a shoegaze setup? I run a modulating reverb first in the pedal chain, then Fuzz/gains with delay last. Maybe put the delay in the effects loop?
Wow, that's a really excellent vídeo and tutorial! Sorry, wanna ask something quick. Can I use a preamp pedal as my "dirty channel" (because the dirty channel of my amp kinda sucks..) into the Efx Loop, with the guitar going into the imput of the amp? Is there going to be any tone or signal problem with that configuration, even if the preamp is on or off? Thanks!
If you want the amp's preamp out of the signal altogether you should run the preamp pedal output to the loop input and plug your guitar directly into the preamp pedal's input. Your pedal is now officially your preamp totally bypassing the amp preamp. IMO it sounds better than running a dist pedal into the amp input. Now, I'm not sure how great your clean tone will be as when you disengage the preamp pedal you loose not only gain but any eq it's providing. Search for Ola Englund's "Metalzone worst distortion pedal ever" video and you can see exactly what I'm babbling about.
@@jpistolas thank you for the answer first of all! Yeah yeah, I totally get it, I've been doing that when I couldn't get my personal amp for a show. But I just was wondering if there is any chance of using both preamp's (amp's preamp for cleans and the preamp box for the distortion, in the loop) efficiently for a live context, so I can have basically two channels, instead of using the preamp pedal as a normal distortion box in the input chain, wich seems to not be his function, it isn't sound any good in that configuration. It's a Tech 21 GT-2's clone.
Mason, I use my Suhr Badger 35 as a pedal platform and was curious if using a parallel mixer such as the Klein makes sense for my delay and reverb in the loop. I get why you say that using the serial loop makes zero difference when I'm getting all the distortion from pedals, but what about a parallel loop in this case?
The Kleinulator is an effects loop buffer, not a mixer. If you want a parallel mixer for your loop, Suhr makes one for that that turns a serial loop into a parallel one. Suhr has a great loop as said in the video as one of our "recommended loops".
Shown regards to go in direct like me using the stream in iridium… Wonder if it’s the same thing as what you said on the video… If you’re using a clean amp you don’t need to use effects loop, which would mean I’m using OD pedals??
Bass Player, I use an ashley bp-41 preamp racked with my tuner and wireless unit running into a QSC powerlite power amp. I want distortion and compression. Suggestions? Also have a Palmer pocket amp portable bass preamp.
Incredible content, Mason! Thank you!! For a parallel fx loop (Mesa F50) will the Keeley Delay Workstation be satisfactory buffer-wise? Should I splurge on the Source Audio Collider? Don't mind spending the cash if the signal is correct but the Keeley looks like plenty of pedal for me. Thoughts? Happily learning with you :)
You need your effects loop to be buffered, not the pedal so much. Any pedal that's "on" is buffering - true bypass or not. As far as the buffer to the return, the quality of the pedal buffer depends on its output impedance and the cable capacitance it's driving. I'm not sure what the Keeley impedance is on the output, but the Collider is around 500 ohms. Ideally you want around 100 ohms.
@@VertexEffectsInc Just wow… This guy… Actually responding to questions, and in ridiculously helpful detail. Just… wow. I can’t tell you how much I/we appreciate your videos and just overall candor. All I want to do is work on peoples pedalboards now. Thanks Mason!
hey guys awesome video. what do you suggest using to bring my line level loop into a pedal friendly zone. (its an older soldano hotrod 100+ but its the same problem as the old SLOs) i know it can be modded but i'd rather not operate until I have no choice. i have some source audio/empress stuff id like to put in the loop. @vertexeffects
Looking at the Fryette PS 100 Attenuator which has an effects loop. This would solve a bunch things for me. One being a loop. Do you know anything about this Loop?
@@VertexEffectsInc this is the answer I got when I asked. “ The loop is passive with a low impedance send and high impedance return, which is essential for an effects loop. It also has a HI/LO level switch to accommodate different classesof effects inputs and outputs. A loop only needs to be buffered (together with appropriate level conditioning) if the send and return impedances are too high on the send or too low on the return.”
@@emmalukeeric If it is passive it will not be low impedance. That is the reason for active sends: OPAMPs, Emitter Followers (BJT), Cathode Followers - if tubes, Source Followers if depletion MOSFET. If a passive was low impedance, we would not need active circuitry to make it work. As for passive returns, they could can be high enough impedance, but if the send was attenuated for pedal line level, then would have to have active circuitry to bring the level back up. I wonder if this was a stock response or something like that. As I said, Steve Fryette is a smart engineer - way smarter than me. I wonder if there's something else going on in the amplifier??? This response you quoted seems to be omitting some things.
Is there a unit that can split/multiply the preamp out 1 to 3? This would be both for daisy-chaining 3 'dry' amps as well as an effects lead out to stereo wet power amplifiers? Or does this require a mixer after the 1st amp preamp out? This is so that only one preamp is being used for tone and texture and all other amps are working clean.
@@KKMcK1 you don't necessarily need to get three splitter boxes. The ones that EVH used weren't isolated. There are also other options from Radial if you do actually need galvanic isolation. I would talk to Bray Amplification, he might be able to make you a custom line out box with three line level outputs.
I was looking up "for" and "while" loops and think video came up... I watched it again, because its been awhile since i seen this. speaking of which, i want another phaser.
I use a RJM Mastermind PBC to my Synergy's Pre amp effects loop (loops 7-10) with all buffers engaged the PBC. In loop 7 is noise gate(SMG Cockblocker) to quiet the pre amp since I use the distortion from the Synergy. In the other loops I have a Strymon Mobius and a H9 running Pre/Post. I have no complaints about how I hear those pedals in the effects loop, could it be because of the buffers in the Mastermind PBC that's helping it or is it a combination of that and Synergy having a good effects loop? I didn't hear you talk about noise gates in the effects loop particularly. Im just wondering if its worth running it like this or going for WDW set up instead...???
The buffers won't have much relationship to the noise. If you use a noise gate it will depend on 1) if the amp is creating the noise via the preamp or 2) the pedals are creating the noise. There are diagrams that show how to do this with things like the Boss NS-2 and 4 Cable method all over the internet that you can follow. For the pedal distortion that should be an easy series of effects in the noise gate loop.
@@HAHb-zc2dp I read it quite a while ago, just after buying the amp. I’ve been plugging pedals in directly to the front, but I’m wanting more control and dimension.
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FX LOOP BUFFERS (turn your passive FX Loop into an active one)
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Fuchs Plush FX Loop Buffer: www.adorama.com/pftubefxloop....
MANUFACTURERS WITH GREAT FX LOOPS
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Fuchs: fuchsaudiotechnology.com
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Custom Audio: bit.ly/3fNZ2p4
Thanks for posting these reminders ... I always learn something from your videos
@@WayneMemphisMojo 🙏🙏🙏
Can't wait for this.
Very informative (as always) and cool that you have demystified what & how the FX loop works. Any chance y'all could make a short video about using a clean boost in the loop as a quasi attenuator? (Lots of talk but not much fact about doing this)
"typical all of them are gonne b serial loops"
Great, now im hungry
This is the first video that explained the fact that you don't need to use the FX loop if you're keeping the amp clean and using overdrive pedals. Thank you! That clears it up for me.
You are not just a rig dr but a rig professor. you explain very very well!
I appreciate that!
This chanel is the university of youtube pedal chanels, so good!!! Thanks
🙏🙏🙏
This quite literally answered all of my questions, and solved all of my problems. Thank you!
Wow! Thanks!
I really appreciate you taking the time to make this video. I’m sure at some point I will understand it. That day is not today but I was able to figure out how to actually play this video which I will count as a win🤙🤘
Mason these videos are absolutely fantastic 👏 full of really great information and I've fixed issues with my own Big pedalboard thanks to these videos 👍🏼
Glad to help!
This is a great video on fx loops. No one else covers it this well that I've come across...
A very well spoken young man who doesn't uhhh and ummm his way s.l.o.w.l.y through the entire damn video. And he knows his shit too!! Perfect combination 👍 subscribed....
You are clearest at explaining how rigs work. Thanks so much, this video cleared up my understanding of effects loops.
Man , that cleared up the of the BS ive been told about this topic.
My Prinston doesn't have an FX Loop because it doesn't need one.
Ive had guys tell me I made a mistake buying it, evan though it sounds fantastic.
You just cleared the air.
If the overdrive is coming from a pedal then you don't need a loop.
THANK YOU....
Thanks, Mason. I found it helpful. Especially since I was planning surgery (converting passive loop to active) and now can consider using a outboard add-on instead.
This was Excellent.
I'm so glad you dig it!
subbing this channel right now! 3 things i've learned from this are 1) there's ALOT i don't know. 2) the sweet sweet sound i get from my amp, i found by happy accident. 3) i'm going to need to watch this video at least one more time to fully understand all that you laid out. if there was such a thing as a "tone course" or class, it would be highly beneficial, and you'd be a great teacher.
This channel is so good, right to the point and very well explained.
Glad you think so!
I Agree Alex. I've learned alot from Mason. Great source of information on this channel. oNe LovE from NYC
@@michael_caz_nyc thanks bro!
As always, very instructional video I have a clean setup and I like to use the effects loop because the coloration of the preamp, the EQ section of my preamp of my clean amp colors, my tone and so I want all of that coming through the effects loop instead of having those. Effects. Before that coloration, but I agree that mostly you probably don't need it unless for those reasons
Great talk, Mason! I actually have an old 2 channel amp that has separate passive send/returns for the clean and OD channels. I had a Moss at Brown Note (long gone...) build me a single rack space, DOUBLE Dumble-ator device, so that I'd have one for each side of the amp. It's tube based, and works wonders with maintaining my tone.
That's a great idea!
Really enjoy your show. The only thing I run through my effects loop is a noise gate / suppressor. This way my delay, reverb units are not affected by the noise gate / suppressor. I don't run a 15:29 big pedal board and have only one pedal ( overdrive ) that is a little on the noisy side. I've always run my pedals in front of the amp.
Awesome, best FX Loop 101 vlog out there, thank you!
Glad you liked it!
Thank you for this information. I was wondering about the distortion and the loops.
Thank you so much for clearing that up for me. I set up my pedal board to run through a PA and when I experimented with my amp at home trying to use the effects loop it sounded better just running it though the amp and not through the loop.
Now I feel better knowing why.
Great tutorial!
Brilliant presentation!...Thanks Mason you're my hero. Now I understand!
Glad to help!
I have a MXR micro amp in my effects loop, great for a volume boost without adding any drive, also I like tremolo and chorus in the loop but phaser in the front, I have one reverb in the loop and a crazy hall reverb in the front. Do whatever you want really, I tried like 20 combos before I found what I wanted.
Wow, this was fantastic! Didn't realize there was so much about effects loops, thankfully the one in my amp is active even though I never thought to check for it before
Glad it helped!
You've mentioned in several videos about the length of the guitar cable and how it affects your tone. What if you use a wireless system, which I do?
What do you think about using a noise gate thru the loop? Wouldn’t that cut down on the loud hiss on dirty channels?
Love this! Been using the effects loop on my Boss Katana 100 this year. Great to know more about it from the Rig Doctor!
Very cool!
Super clear. Thank you. It made so much sense. Well done chaps!
Best video on the subject I've found. Thanks.
Wow, thanks!
Hi Mason, as always your videos are worth every second! I'd like to ask a question hoping that you can help me! I bought a 40w point to point tube amp second hand ( a D'Angelo one) that has an effects loop with a pot on the back; the person who sold me it said a couple of strange things about the loop in this amp: it's an active one ( ok); It doesn't sit between preamp and power amp but it is a part of the preamp ( what? Is this possible?); it's not meant to be used with pedals but just with "always on" effects like delays and reverbs ( it could make sense); it's an unusual fx loop because it runs in series but sometimes switches to parallel and the other way around ( what???).
I tried a delay through it and it was fine except for the "popping" sound when engaging or disengaging ( solved with a dc filter). I also tried to jump it with a patch cable and the knob acts like some sort of master volume or volume box, from zero to full, ( even with delays in the loop it doesn'control the mix of the effect but still the volume). I've also tried a volume box in the loop, the jhs little black box, and the sound is as quite identical as the jumped loop.I'll appreciate to know what you think about it ( obviously up to where is possible without seeing the amp or the schematics!).
Thanks a lot🙏
Incredible knowledge… you may be the only person who is able to explain this logically… sounds so simple now
Thanks so much!!!
I appreciate your videos and catch them when I can. As usual, there is a lot of good information here.
I have a few (very) basic questions: I have an older Fender Concert amp with the buffered effects loop. I assume that is not a solid state loop, but if you would, please confirm. And I also assume, based on the video, that I should use that effects loop for time based effects, but not for my compressor, distortion and EQ pedals.
Thanks again for your insightful videos!
In the case that you wanna run your modulation pedals with your amp derived distortion, would you want those in the fx loop?
Great vid! I run a Line 6 HXFX with a 2004 JCM 2000 DSL 50 and I use its effects loop with 4cm. Each of the 4 cables is 22' long. I definitely experience tone loss using the HXFX into the effects loop. Is the Kleinulator what I need to correct this? I LOVE my amp and the HXFX on their own, but, together they are more rrama than the Kardashians. Thanks for your advice!
It will turn that into an active loop with the right buffering.
JHS pedals brought up a great idea about using a volume pedal in effects loop to crank the preamp but control loudness!
I wish he'd talked about impedance though. You need to have the right volume pedal to work properly here or it won't work that great.
@@VertexEffectsInc never thought of that. Thanks for pointing out!
I play jazz w/archtops. I just bought Quilters DirectAmp to go directly into the boards at Festivals. I have a simple rig: Poloy Tune in to guitar input, MXR Tremolo, and Boss RV-6 stereo into the effects loop. Do I need a second buffer? I've been adjusting the gain on the Tremolo to match the DirectAmp without the loop engaged.
Hello Mason. I'll never get tired to thank for your videos. I would like to make a very important question for me. If I want to use: compressor (for limiting peaks of my Hot Rod Deville), graphic Eq, reverb, delays, volume box and a booster, in what order should I place them? Thanks in advance
Watch our advanced signal path video
An amazing video! You should really do a video compare of a passive effects loop and long cables versus an amplifier with an active buffered loop and the same long cable setup.
Also dive more into the Klein-ulator. I don't see many TH-cam videos about it. I just bought one and it's solved my tube amp buzzing issue. I'll be doing a video on that soon.
Good call...would be good to see how much it impacts the tone.
@@VertexEffectsInc agreed. My Peavey VB-2 has the same flaw as the ValveKing amps where there is a buzz with the master vume at 0 or 5, but all the way up at 10.
It is because since there is no buffer in the loop, those high impedance resistors in it couple with the volume pot and pickup stray noise. Jumpering the loop bypasses those resistors and eliminates the noise. The Kleinulator does the same by loading down the loop to low impedance eliminating the noise.
I have a Elmwood Modena m60 (which is easily the best and most flexible amp I’ve ever owned in 30 years of playing) and it has a series/parallel tube buffered loop. It’s the best loop I’ve ever used cuz I love running my time based pedals blended with the dry tone. But it doesn’t have volume pots for send and return. It only has a series/parallel dry/wet pot. I usually run it about 50% wet/dry and it’s dead quiet. Thanks for the vid
Nice! Thanks for watching!
Just ordered a Mesa Boogie MarkV. Is that effects loop any good? Looking to add a few Boss Waza Craft pedals to it (Delay, Chorus, vibrato and RC-500 loop)
Those have good ones!!
Thank you Mason, this was very helpful! I have a line level passive effects loop and was looking at something like the Kleinulator but just moved my reverb/delay to the end of my chain going straight into my amp b/c I just run my amp clean anyways. i prefer this so i can plug my board into whatever and keep my tone as opposed to depending on the dirty channel from my particular amp... so ultimately you almost sold me a Kleinulator but by the end of the video you made me realize I have no need for the effects loop entirely... THANK YOU!
Sure thing!
Killer in depth explanation, very nice
🙏🙏🙏 thanks for watching!
Curious about something. I have always seen Compressors in front of the pre on a tube amp, but I know many blues players who like to have the pre set to edge of breakup. Play light and it is clean and dig in and get the crunch. If a compressor is in front, it seems like that limits the dynamic range of soft to loud hitting the pre, depending on how low the threshold is set and how much compression is used. In this situation, if you had a proper level FX loop, would a compressor make sense at the beginning of the FX loop to make up some gain of the volume difference between strumming lightly and strumming harder. It might seem counterintuitive to the guitarist since you assume it will get quieter when you strum lighter, but it seems like having the ability to have a more consistent volume and just altering your attack on the strings would be helpful. I am not saying the gentle picking should be as loud as a full hard strum, but compressing some of the dynamics, after the pre has done its thing with regard to dirt, would bring up the volume of the softer strumming that is clean to be closer to the volume of the harder strumming that gets dirtier in the pre. Does this make sense?
I am going to do some experimenting, but I only have an old GNX1 that has a compressor, so probably not the greatest test subject.
Compressors in a studio are after the mic, so some people opt to emulate that in their rigs as a consequence.
Hi Maxon. Please forgive my ignorance. I have a question for you. I understand that my amp (Hot Rod Deville ML) one exactly like the one in your video, has an External Effects Loop built in, also a Preamp Out option and a Power Amp In as well. I've purchased The Sheriff Pedal Preamp, but I'm not sure how to connect it to my amp. According to Victory, the best way to use the Sheriff is from the pedal's Loop input to the amp's Effects Loop send and from the pedal's Loop output to the amp's Effects Loop return, but I've noticed that my amp only has one external Effects Loop. Does this mean I can't use the pedal this way, which Victory say is the most recommended? Thank you in advance for your time. looking very forward to your reply. 🙏🙏
You mention how a lot of modulation effects should be in front of the preamp and I totally agree for phase and univibes and chorus but I still prefer flange in the loop post the preamp stage. Sometimes I'll put a chorus there too, but usually leave that out front.
I think about a lot of the classical sounds that we base our preference off of for effects like chorus, Flange, etc. Guys like EVH, Andy Summers, The Cure, etc. All those were in front of an amplifier. It's preferential, no "Right Way" but I typically recognize those effects more in that position and generally they're used more clean than dirty anyway.
@@VertexEffectsInc except Cobain used chorus straight in front of a dirty amp and as you said EVH used everything into a cranked Marshall, people think too much about it instead of just going with their ears. Keep up the good work demystifying this stuff for people just getting into it, there’s a lot of people on forums who have opinions without basis.
My Revv G20 has a wonderful buffered FX loop. Seems like Orange uses nice buffered loops on some amps too; the loop on my wife's Crush Bass 50 drives a DI box like a champ!
I have a Mesa Boogie Fillmore 50 head. It has a buffered/active effects loop, so can I assume that the 20’ cable run from the effects loop Send TO my pedal board (delay and reverb only with other effects on the front end rather than in the loop)? If so, do I still need a buffer after the reverb (last time based effect) before the 20’ cable going back to the loop return on my amp? Even with a buffered pedal I assume a quality buffer will give me better results than just trusting the pedal’s buffer. This is a great video! Your info is very comprehensive and well presented. Well done! Thanks!!
Depends on the output impedance of the last pedal in the loop. 100 ohm would be ideal.
thank you so much for your tutorials. You are a very good coach about all thoses topics
I have a Quilter Superblock US. But I cannot find info on if the effects loop is buffered or active..do you know? Additionally, what do you think about me putting the Superblock on my pedal board and running a speaker cable to my cabinet? Does that need a buffer? I wanted everything in one place and am trying to avoid power cable spaghetti. Finally, THANK YOU for all of this incredible content. We're lucky to have access to your incredible expertise-very grateful.
Not sure how they're doing it. Maybe email them. Also, since it's pedalboard based it may not be that much of a problem anyway since the cables are so short.
Every video on this channel is suuuper informative and helpful, but this one in particular was a lifesaver. Thanks for the awesome video! It would be sick if you could get your hands on a fender engine room and shed some light on its pros and cons. 12 outputs at 500ma at $250 seems amazing
Thanks for watching. I reached out to Fender, no response.
With their history of appreciating vintage, they’re probably on windows 98 and have not had a chance to respond. Lol. Hopefully they reach out soon
Outstanding presentation!!! My quest to go from a digital effects processor (GNX 3) to stomp boxes had me doing research prior to purchasing any effects boxes. It turns out my Marshall AVT 275's effects loop is set up to run in parallel. My first three stomp boxes that I am wanting to purchase are a phaser and chorus in front of the amp and an echoplex in the loop. But looking at the echoplex and other delay pedals there doesn't seem to be a sensitivity knob. There is an effects loop "mix " knob on the front of the amp, which according to the manual is used to "increase the amount of effect you hear"..... I just wonder if I'm wasting my money on the echoplex or any pedal that I decide to put in the loop without it having a sensitivity knob..... I am already considering adding reverb to the loop chain after this initial set up. Thank you again for your great channel.
Typically with a parallel fx loop you'll run the wet effects in the loop 100% wet and then mix that with the dry signal with some sort of blend control on the amp itself.
I am still in the add preview but this channel is the greatest about pedalstuff.😂😍
Wow, thanks!
How familiar are you with the HX Stomp effects loop? I want to run my drives in it so I can put the expression in front of them for pitch shifters, vol, and wah.
Mason, I have an Marshall Artist 3203 30w Head and I run a Avid Eleven Rack for all my effects. Would you recommend running the Eleven Rack through the FX Loop of the Marshall?
Depends if it can take the impedance...could be a cool Wet/Dry option if the Eleven Rack has a mixer so you can do 100% wet effects in parallel with the mixer.
Great video as usual Mason I’ve been using FX lives for years and I agree there’s good ones bad ones and maybe stuff in between in the better amps I’ve had to have better effects loops… But what about those of us who predominantly play on a worship band and have to go direct… Not using an amplifier at all. Are used to use a two notes Le-Clean which had a effects loop build in no questioning how good it was but it seemed good but you couldn’t control any kind of levels on it so I don’t know… Now I’m acoustic rig I use a Radial Tonebone PZ Pre, seems to be a really good quality effects loop. Now for my electric rig the brains of it is a Stroman iridium… No effects loop not sure how to handle that
Watch our video with Mitch Gallagher at Sweetwater on their channel on building an ampless rig. Lots of good info :)
Finally I could understand fx loop. great video
Great info and thanks I needed to hear this. I just acquired my dream tube amp (bogner uberschall) i love the clean and dirty channel of it but damn the effects loops sounds terrible "tone sucked, muddy, compressed and noisy", running it in a 4cm every cable 15ft with headrush gigboard processor. It's a series loop with a send out level knob in the back and when using the fx loop your volume channels acts as the fx send level meaning it's almost impossible running it loud without getting the signal too hot 🔥, I find the kleinulator quite promising . Do you have any experience with loops such this one, do you think the kleinulator or anything else could potentially help this situation 🥲
Thanks.
Kleinulator is the move
So given that you want to put time based effects after the distortion generating gain stage, what if a guitar player was trying to push for power amp distortion instead of pre amp distortion? If I were to use the FX loop in that context, wouldn't I be facing the same issue as putting a reverb in front of a distorting pre amp? Would that mean that I need to mic up the amp without the reverb and run the signal through an outboard FX unit instead? (or more practically nowadays, I'd probably be driving the power amp hard but running the speaker out into a loadbox such as a Torpedo Captor X, after which I can run the line out signal into a time-based FX unit then. Would that be your advice? Thanks!
You can boost into the power amp, fx return, if you want to do that.
Dude! This one is very nice to learn and understand your gear inside out. +1 sub!
Awesome, thank you!
@@VertexEffectsInc Mason, I have to tell you, this one helped me get rid of a buzz in my chain after a lo-o-ong time. Now I realy understand how's and why's, and I have a consequent preset now between gain via pedal or the IRT amp itself, and even the Swedisch chainsaw combination of amp and the HM2. For the rest very nice delay swells and reverbs and again combinations with the gain. Compression only in rare occasions, I rather play with intonation. Where and when do you use compression or can you recommand one of your clips about that topic? (boss cp-1x is the one at the start of my chain) Kind regards from Belgium
Love your channel.
I have one critique. Please get rid of the annoying "pop" sounds.
Please!
It distracts from what your saying and, in my situation, forces me to lower the volume because the "pop" volume is louder than your voice.
What if your using some gain from the amp for your clean sound. I have a Fender hotrod Deluxe tube amp. I like using just a touch of gain with my clean sound?
Hello! You are right about Boss pedals.I have just taken off 3 of them off my pedalboard and my tone came back. It seems the only one working fine in front of the amp and in the effects loop are the Waza Craft type.I guess they have good buffer 1M/100K.Same as the EQ Devices.
By plugging and unplugging the return of the effects loop for comparison gave me a proof of what Boss pedals can do to a guitar tone.Too many will suck tone.They were replaced by EQ Devices..
It seems now they all talk to one and other properly on the pedalboard.
Thx and have a good life!
The Waza's seem to have the same impedances as does the Earthquaker. Remember it should be 100 ohms, not 100K ohms (100,000).
Hi Mason, Not sure if this has been asked and answered. How do you cut the latency when using a digital delay pedal in the effects loop?
What about using a fractal fm3 in the effects loop? Should I still buffer? Turn it into an active fx loop?
I'm putting together a new setup strictly for home use -- 10' cable from guitar into polytune w/ buffer, a bunch of true bypass pedals, Bonafide output buffer to pre-amp, 10' cable from FX send to a multi-effect pedal (used just for modulation/time) and a looper, 10' cable back to return (I use Ernie Ball cables, mostly). My home amp (Orange OR-15) has a 12AT7 buffered FX loop. Is this sufficient buffering for that part of the signal chain, or should I add additional buffering? If the latter, where should that buffer go?
Great video! Got me thinking a lot about my FX loop. I don't know much about this topic but I find it fascinating. I also have not looked at my amps schematics. But I assumed that if I am on the gain channel ... my drive control (pot) is before the pre amp out (send) and the master volume is after the send just before the power amp section. So would that not function the same as using a buffered FX loop or am I just way out in left field?
There's no standard to where these volume controls are on the amplifier. The Master volumes can be in different places in the signal path depending on the design. In some cases you can use your amp controls to compensate for make up gain or loss in the loop, but it's still a compromise and you have to set your amp level in a way that optimizes the loop but not necessarily the distortion you want or the output you want. All things being equal, you want a buffered effects loop if you're going to use wet effects in the loop.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you for the clarification. Makes sense.
Would love to see a demo of that Klienulator. Maybe include how to incorporate it into a board with a switcher?
You would just treat it like any 4CM set up. Any active loop buffer lives at the amp side, not pedalboard.
Bassist here. What about modulated reverbs? Or something like the TE-2 : imean, what is that anyway? I have a rumble 100-im guessing that has a passive loop. when i put the delay in front of the amp it rings/squeals; what the heck is that? (Maybe it was something else i don't know, i stopped trying to put the delay in front). It sounds like i need a boost/buffer yes?
If it's a reverb and you're getting gain from the amp, then it would count as "time based" and go into the loop.
I like my Big Muff in the loop so I can send preamp overdrive into it, sounds killer.
Hey! Just watched this. Great bits of info here. Thank you! I have a question/comment or two though... I've recently obtained a DOD Rubberneck Analog Delay pedal which has a single TRS jack FX loop running at instrument level built into the pedal (TRS to Y). I'm looking to run my board in front of a clean amp and was wondering what I should consider doing per what was mentioned in the video, as I'm currently thinking of using said FX loop to loop in, if you will, my Holy Grail nano reverb at that point of my boards signal chain. Or, if there's other effects I should run though this loop, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on that too.
The effects loop on the delay is to add effects that only colour the delay lines (not your dry signal). It has nothing to do with how you'd run the effects loop in an amp.
Andrew...what Ezra said!
Great explanation !!!
Glad it helped!
Excellent information!!!!! I have a Fender Twin Reverb and a Marshall 410. So now you have clarified why things can sound good or bad. So for the Fender I don't use the effects loop which is great. But pedal order is still important. I have to experiment with my Marshall. I have the Echo Plex Delay and Hall of Fame pedals on the Effects loop. In front of the amp they just cut everything out. However I have an Electric Mistress Flanger and Chorus combo pedal that sounds ok in the loop but I should try in front of the amp. I guess if it was good enough for Eddie it should be good for me?!!!!!
There are preferential difference here. Some like Mod in the loop...I don't personally. When I think about guys like Andy Summers and their EHX Electric Mistress sound I think "why do it any different"???
@@VertexEffectsInc Wow...I just experimented with my Electric Mistress Flanger/Chorus pedal in front of the amp. What a difference!!!! Yeah ...it definitely gives me the Andy Summers sound even though I have a Japanese Strat!!!!! Thanks for the information...I am now jamming out on Roxanne and Message in a Bottle much better!!!!
@@jamesbond4633 Perfect!
Mason, why does the Fender Hot Rod Deville ML (Michael Landau) amp have an FX loop? There is no drive channel on this amp, two clean channels. If you are getting no high gain/distortion from the preamp, why have the FX loop? Usually for clean amps I put everything in front of preamp?
It’s a passive loop. I wouldn’t use it however as this amp is really clean
Hi, thanks for this another useful video! As you know some of the marshall's combos have no reverb, i'm about to buy a marshall origin 20 combo, it has the fx loop, i do use some distortions (fuzz, ts9 or marshall jackhammer) but i would like to use the saturation of the amp itself... so I would like to ask you what you suggest for this circumstance: do you think that it is better poot on fx loop the reverb (and delay) o just follow the pedal board chain? thanks again, cheers
wow thank you just want to add a little reverb with a cheap reverb pedal to my 1watt amp.
Cool!
what is cool you tube and your vedioes I wonder how many music stores have lost guitar instructors and me when I get info from TH-cam I alway send some cash when I have it I think it's the way to say thanks for getting info for free if I had youtube and a cell back in the day >would be in Nashville or playing a/the whisky a gogo I would of probly been one of the band members of the Greatfull Dead why I say this? because finally I get it the language of music..
And then a light came on! This video was VERY helpful in getting me to understand I don't need to include an FX loop in my single-channel, pedal platform amp build! :D 😂
Hey Mason, are you implying that the fx loop in the Quilter is bad? Asking cause I have a Tone Block 202 and I do all my time base effects trough it and now m not sure if I should, since in your vid you use the Quilter basically of an example of a none good fx loop. So I’m now thinking if I need to try to change my set up options
Thank you
I’m not sure where that’s insinuated, I’m actually not sure about their effects loop I haven’t done any extensive testing on it, from what it appears, it seems like it’s a passive loop, not sure about the signal coming out of it, but I’m sure you could ask them
@@VertexEffectsInc sometimes images can distort people’s messages, now I understand yuo just used your Quilter as a prop, thx for the clarification and will look up for that info with them.
Thx for the informative videos !
Nice video. Slightly unrelated -I have a question regarding using a rackmount effects unit, in conjunction with pedals. With the set up of the pedals and rackmount before the amp, to reduce potential pedal noise (hum) would it be better to run the pedals in front of the rackmount or after it?
Totally made sense - excellent video thank you Mason. 😎
Question:
If your amp doesn't have an effects loop and you think you need one, how well does Swiss Things (Earthquaker Devices) work? With the onboard boost, 2x separate loops, it seems to meet much of the criteria on the basis it works as described.
Also, I've spoken with Roger out here, seems the MKII is still another 2 weeks away. Given he's no longer the distributer he wasn't 100% certain, but knows 1 will be for me. 👍
Cheers. 🎸🎸🎸
I don't think it's designed for this application or the types of levels that are found in effects loops. Also the specs aren't that great as line drivers at 1K output. I think they're using a TL072 or a BJT buffer on these. You really need something designed to be used as an effects loop buffer like the Klein-ulator. We just got them finished...had a little delay at customs in LAX to get our pots out of there but we're shipping them this week and Hot Apple (our Aussie distro) has a shipment leaving on Friday or Monday with them.
@@VertexEffectsInc Ok...thanks for the info Mason. 😎 Yup, they do use a BJT buffer!
I'll wait on Roger to get his stock in. He's a good guy and said with his schedule he was unable to give Vertex the attention it deserved so passed on the dealership. Also spoke highly of you.
I actually don't know Hot Apple by name. I will look them up. Perhaps that's not altogether surprising as is often the way between behind the scenes wholesalers and the face of retail.
I hope they work out well for you here.
All the best. 🎸🎸🎸
@@nostro1001 BJT isn't great for driving a lot of capacitance neutrally...not what I'd recommend. Rodger is the BEST! Love that guy and can't wait to do some clinics out there when this is all over! Hot Apple is also great, they deal with most of the big shops in Oz and were connected with us by Rodger. Thanks for watching!
@@VertexEffectsInc That is a brilliant idea...combine some biz, with a vacation. And no doubt you'd have contacts where accommodation isn't gonna impact too heavily.
Roger is driving distance from 2 of the most picturesque beach zones in Australia, although both completely different: 1 mega commercial and attracts visitors from all over the world, the other almost the opposite - somewhat of a hidden jewel (still).
We aren't likely to be opening borders anytime soon unfortunately. Whilst we've managed the situation arguably the best in the world, along with NZ, vaccination roll out has started really slowly for a variety of reasons. But, please do put a trip out here on your bucket list. 😎 👌
BLT buffers often spoken about as if they are the best all purpose buffers out there, so thanks for the heads up in terms of this usage.
Cheers man. 🎶🎸
The education I needed 👍🤘
I run a clean amp so no loop for me. Good thing cuz my amp doesn’t have one 😄. I was thinking of adding one. You just saved me a ton of headache.
I actually have an example of a time when you would want to use an effects loop even though you are using pedal distortion into a clean amp: when you have a parallel effects loop (in my case, I use a Boss Katana Artist MKii, which can switch to serial or parallel), and you want to use a different amp (In my case, a 1979 Peavey Classic 100 combo 50w 2x12) for wet signals. I run the Boss effects output into a Tone City Tape Machine delay pedal, and the output from the delay pedal is ran into the Peavey input. Then I use the Peavey's onboard reverb and trem, which I'm able to really crank to a level I couldn't dream of if I were using a dry signal in the Peavey or trying to use the Katana's onboard reverb or trem. Anyway it's a poor man's wet/dry setup. My signal chain is Ram's Head Big Muff Pi nano into Xotic USA E.P. Booster into no-name Klon clone from Wish into Arion Tubulator into Boss BD-2 Blues Driver into Tone City Comp Engine compressor into Tone City Golden Plexi distortion into the Boss Katana's clean channel. I usually use the booster pedal and blues driver for the Les Paul and the Klon for the Strat, and everything but the Big Muff has the drive all the way down. If you read this far, you get an attaboy. Point is, it's unconventional but sounds epic and yuge.
You're really using your FX Loop send like a line level out almost at that point, not really a true effects loop in this case.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes true. I have to use the effects send for the wet because I am using the line out to send to the Tascam Model 24 for both PA signal and as an interface. I record the input signal from the Boss as well as the room mic channels and the hall mic channel, so I can choose how saturated the final guitar signal is (usually hardly at all, but it's there if-and-when I need it). It's interesting: when practicing I like plenty of bigness and multiple delays and multiple reverbs, but when I record a song and do post-production, I invariable end up editing all that washy, time-based stuff out.
What would you recommend for a shoegaze setup? I run a modulating reverb first in the pedal chain, then Fuzz/gains with delay last. Maybe put the delay in the effects loop?
Why reverb first? Definitely delay in the loop for clarity.
Wow, that's a really excellent vídeo and tutorial! Sorry, wanna ask something quick. Can I use a preamp pedal as my "dirty channel" (because the dirty channel of my amp kinda sucks..) into the Efx Loop, with the guitar going into the imput of the amp? Is there going to be any tone or signal problem with that configuration, even if the preamp is on or off? Thanks!
If you want the amp's preamp out of the signal altogether you should run the preamp pedal output to the loop input and plug your guitar directly into the preamp pedal's input. Your pedal is now officially your preamp totally bypassing the amp preamp. IMO it sounds better than running a dist pedal into the amp input. Now, I'm not sure how great your clean tone will be as when you disengage the preamp pedal you loose not only gain but any eq it's providing. Search for Ola Englund's "Metalzone worst distortion pedal ever" video and you can see exactly what I'm babbling about.
@@jpistolas thank you for the answer first of all! Yeah yeah, I totally get it, I've been doing that when I couldn't get my personal amp for a show. But I just was wondering if there is any chance of using both preamp's (amp's preamp for cleans and the preamp box for the distortion, in the loop) efficiently for a live context, so I can have basically two channels, instead of using the preamp pedal as a normal distortion box in the input chain, wich seems to not be his function, it isn't sound any good in that configuration. It's a Tech 21 GT-2's clone.
I would still use it in front. Most pedals aren't optimized to be used into a power amp directly like you're suggesting.
Mason, I use my Suhr Badger 35 as a pedal platform and was curious if using a parallel mixer such as the Klein makes sense for my delay and reverb in the loop. I get why you say that using the serial loop makes zero difference when I'm getting all the distortion from pedals, but what about a parallel loop in this case?
The Klienulator is not a parallel mixer. It's a buffer for a serial loop. The loop in the Suhr is fine as is.
The Kleinulator is an effects loop buffer, not a mixer. If you want a parallel mixer for your loop, Suhr makes one for that that turns a serial loop into a parallel one. Suhr has a great loop as said in the video as one of our "recommended loops".
Very educating. Thank you Uncle Mason
Thanks for watching!
Does Kleinolator works when my fx loop is too hot?
That send level can adjust the level hitting your pedals between instrument and line level. So yes.
Shown regards to go in direct like me using the stream in iridium… Wonder if it’s the same thing as what you said on the video… If you’re using a clean amp you don’t need to use effects loop, which would mean I’m using OD pedals??
You'd put your time-based stuff after your amp sim since it doesn't have a loop.
Thanks Doc I feel better already
🥳🥳🥳🙏🙏🙏
Bass Player, I use an ashley bp-41 preamp racked with my tuner and wireless unit running into a QSC powerlite power amp. I want distortion and compression. Suggestions? Also have a Palmer pocket amp portable bass preamp.
Incredible content, Mason! Thank you!!
For a parallel fx loop (Mesa F50) will the Keeley Delay Workstation be satisfactory buffer-wise? Should I splurge on the Source Audio Collider? Don't mind spending the cash if the signal is correct but the Keeley looks like plenty of pedal for me. Thoughts? Happily learning with you :)
You need your effects loop to be buffered, not the pedal so much. Any pedal that's "on" is buffering - true bypass or not. As far as the buffer to the return, the quality of the pedal buffer depends on its output impedance and the cable capacitance it's driving. I'm not sure what the Keeley impedance is on the output, but the Collider is around 500 ohms. Ideally you want around 100 ohms.
@@VertexEffectsInc Just wow… This guy… Actually responding to questions, and in ridiculously helpful detail. Just… wow.
I can’t tell you how much I/we appreciate your videos and just overall candor. All I want to do is work on peoples pedalboards now. Thanks Mason!
@@JoeBoomerMusic Thanks Joe!!!
Hi Mason! Would you recommend using the Steel String Supreme thru the fx loop to get a better tone instead of having it in front of the amp??
It’s designed to be in front of an amp
hey guys awesome video. what do you suggest using to bring my line level loop into a pedal friendly zone. (its an older soldano hotrod 100+ but its the same problem as the old SLOs) i know it can be modded but i'd rather not operate until I have no choice. i have some source audio/empress stuff id like to put in the loop. @vertexeffects
The Klein-ulator would work great. You can attenuate with the SEND control down to -20
Awesome Job! I am going to set up a consultation with you guys. Great Video!
Placing the Ripley Fall into the front of the amp or into the FX loop? Cheers...
Looking at the Fryette PS 100 Attenuator which has an effects loop. This would solve a bunch things for me. One being a loop. Do you know anything about this Loop?
I don't, what's the impedance? Does it have a send/return control? Steve is pretty good with this stuff, I imagine it would be a good quality.
@@VertexEffectsInc this is the answer I got when I asked. “
The loop is passive with a low impedance send and high impedance return, which is essential for an effects loop.
It also has a HI/LO level switch to accommodate different classesof effects inputs and outputs.
A loop only needs to be buffered (together with appropriate level conditioning) if the send and return impedances are too high on the send or too low on the return.”
@@emmalukeeric If it is passive it will not be low impedance. That is the reason for active sends: OPAMPs, Emitter Followers (BJT), Cathode Followers - if tubes, Source Followers if depletion MOSFET. If a passive was low impedance, we would not need active circuitry to make it work. As for passive returns, they could can be high enough impedance, but if the send was attenuated for pedal line level, then would have to have active circuitry to bring the level back up. I wonder if this was a stock response or something like that. As I said, Steve Fryette is a smart engineer - way smarter than me. I wonder if there's something else going on in the amplifier??? This response you quoted seems to be omitting some things.
Is there a unit that can split/multiply the preamp out 1 to 3? This would be both for daisy-chaining 3 'dry' amps as well as an effects lead out to stereo wet power amplifiers? Or does this require a mixer after the 1st amp preamp out? This is so that only one preamp is being used for tone and texture and all other amps are working clean.
A line out box with three outputs. EVH did this.
@@VertexEffectsInc The only thing I could find on the market is the Lehle P split III which I would need to use 2 of in series @ $180 each. OUCH!!!
@@KKMcK1 you don't necessarily need to get three splitter boxes. The ones that EVH used weren't isolated. There are also other options from Radial if you do actually need galvanic isolation. I would talk to Bray Amplification, he might be able to make you a custom line out box with three line level outputs.
I was looking up "for" and "while" loops and think video came up... I watched it again, because its been awhile since i seen this. speaking of which, i want another phaser.
Hope it helps!
I use a RJM Mastermind PBC to my Synergy's Pre amp effects loop (loops 7-10) with all buffers engaged the PBC. In loop 7 is noise gate(SMG Cockblocker) to quiet the pre amp since I use the distortion from the Synergy. In the other loops I have a Strymon Mobius and a H9 running Pre/Post. I have no complaints about how I hear those pedals in the effects loop, could it be because of the buffers in the Mastermind PBC that's helping it or is it a combination of that and Synergy having a good effects loop? I didn't hear you talk about noise gates in the effects loop particularly. Im just wondering if its worth running it like this or going for WDW set up instead...???
The buffers won't have much relationship to the noise. If you use a noise gate it will depend on 1) if the amp is creating the noise via the preamp or 2) the pedals are creating the noise. There are diagrams that show how to do this with things like the Boss NS-2 and 4 Cable method all over the internet that you can follow. For the pedal distortion that should be an easy series of effects in the noise gate loop.
Ooh Boy....NOTHING is as ever "simple" as it may seem. Thank You for the Warnings Sir.
You are very welcome
Great vid, thanks. I’ve got a Roland BC-60 with send/return controls on the loop, I’m looking forward to some experimenting.
Have you read the.manual for the unit?
@@HAHb-zc2dp I read it quite a while ago, just after buying the amp. I’ve been plugging pedals in directly to the front, but I’m wanting more control and dimension.