FX LOOP BUFFERS (turn your passive FX Loop into an active one) Vertex Boost MKII: bit.ly/3fIRxQa Kleinulator: www.therigdr.com/products/the... Fuchs Plush FX Loop Buffer: www.adorama.com/pftubefxloop.... MANUFACTURERS WITH GREAT FX LOOPS Rivera: www.rivera.com Mesa Boogie: www.mesaboogie.com Suhr: www.suhr.com Fuchs: fuchsaudiotechnology.com Friedman: friedmanamplification.com Custom Audio: bit.ly/3fNZ2p4
Very informative (as always) and cool that you have demystified what & how the FX loop works. Any chance y'all could make a short video about using a clean boost in the loop as a quasi attenuator? (Lots of talk but not much fact about doing this)
This is the first video that explained the fact that you don't need to use the FX loop if you're keeping the amp clean and using overdrive pedals. Thank you! That clears it up for me.
A very well spoken young man who doesn't uhhh and ummm his way s.l.o.w.l.y through the entire damn video. And he knows his shit too!! Perfect combination 👍 subscribed....
I really appreciate you taking the time to make this video. I’m sure at some point I will understand it. That day is not today but I was able to figure out how to actually play this video which I will count as a win🤙🤘
Man , that cleared up the of the BS ive been told about this topic. My Prinston doesn't have an FX Loop because it doesn't need one. Ive had guys tell me I made a mistake buying it, evan though it sounds fantastic. You just cleared the air. If the overdrive is coming from a pedal then you don't need a loop. THANK YOU....
Mason these videos are absolutely fantastic 👏 full of really great information and I've fixed issues with my own Big pedalboard thanks to these videos 👍🏼
Really enjoy your show. The only thing I run through my effects loop is a noise gate / suppressor. This way my delay, reverb units are not affected by the noise gate / suppressor. I don't run a 15:29 big pedal board and have only one pedal ( overdrive ) that is a little on the noisy side. I've always run my pedals in front of the amp.
Thanks, Mason. I found it helpful. Especially since I was planning surgery (converting passive loop to active) and now can consider using a outboard add-on instead.
subbing this channel right now! 3 things i've learned from this are 1) there's ALOT i don't know. 2) the sweet sweet sound i get from my amp, i found by happy accident. 3) i'm going to need to watch this video at least one more time to fully understand all that you laid out. if there was such a thing as a "tone course" or class, it would be highly beneficial, and you'd be a great teacher.
Sorry if this is a dumb question but I own a Katana Artist Gen 3 that has an effects loop. I mostly use the effects built or available as patches including wet effects such as reverb, delay, choruses, etc. The distortion and OD effects from the amp are good but I have dry and wet pedals I'd also like in my chain as well as a looping/drum machine pedal. As far as I understand the distortion and OD pedals should still go: guitar-> OD -> Disto -> amp input. Then my reverb, fuzz, and delay pedals would be connected via the effects loop with the looper pedal at the end of the chain feeding back into the Return of the effects loop? Because the Katana has all kinds of built-in effects and things like compressors and noise gates, how do those work with the wet pedals and looper in the effects loop? Or are all those effects bypassed prior. I want to use Katana effects in my music and looping but I also want to switch to my pedals when I want with the looper picking those up. Basically I was to be able to utilize any or all given the situation without having to disconnect or rewire my setup simply because I have an amp that has most everything in it but also having standalone pedals. The looper needs to be able to capture whatever is active at the time of recording the loop. Sorry for this long question but I'm new to setting this up. If I had an amp with nothing but EQ and gain then this would be easy but I feel the Katana and separate pedals with a looper is making it harder for me to understand my best setup. Thanks 👍
I have a MXR micro amp in my effects loop, great for a volume boost without adding any drive, also I like tremolo and chorus in the loop but phaser in the front, I have one reverb in the loop and a crazy hall reverb in the front. Do whatever you want really, I tried like 20 combos before I found what I wanted.
Thank you so much for clearing that up for me. I set up my pedal board to run through a PA and when I experimented with my amp at home trying to use the effects loop it sounded better just running it though the amp and not through the loop. Now I feel better knowing why. Great tutorial!
Great talk, Mason! I actually have an old 2 channel amp that has separate passive send/returns for the clean and OD channels. I had a Moss at Brown Note (long gone...) build me a single rack space, DOUBLE Dumble-ator device, so that I'd have one for each side of the amp. It's tube based, and works wonders with maintaining my tone.
Wow, this was fantastic! Didn't realize there was so much about effects loops, thankfully the one in my amp is active even though I never thought to check for it before
I appreciate your videos and catch them when I can. As usual, there is a lot of good information here. I have a few (very) basic questions: I have an older Fender Concert amp with the buffered effects loop. I assume that is not a solid state loop, but if you would, please confirm. And I also assume, based on the video, that I should use that effects loop for time based effects, but not for my compressor, distortion and EQ pedals. Thanks again for your insightful videos!
As always, very instructional video I have a clean setup and I like to use the effects loop because the coloration of the preamp, the EQ section of my preamp of my clean amp colors, my tone and so I want all of that coming through the effects loop instead of having those. Effects. Before that coloration, but I agree that mostly you probably don't need it unless for those reasons
Love your channel. I have one critique. Please get rid of the annoying "pop" sounds. Please! It distracts from what your saying and, in my situation, forces me to lower the volume because the "pop" volume is louder than your voice.
@@VertexEffectsInc Mason, I have to tell you, this one helped me get rid of a buzz in my chain after a lo-o-ong time. Now I realy understand how's and why's, and I have a consequent preset now between gain via pedal or the IRT amp itself, and even the Swedisch chainsaw combination of amp and the HM2. For the rest very nice delay swells and reverbs and again combinations with the gain. Compression only in rare occasions, I rather play with intonation. Where and when do you use compression or can you recommand one of your clips about that topic? (boss cp-1x is the one at the start of my chain) Kind regards from Belgium
Curious about something. I have always seen Compressors in front of the pre on a tube amp, but I know many blues players who like to have the pre set to edge of breakup. Play light and it is clean and dig in and get the crunch. If a compressor is in front, it seems like that limits the dynamic range of soft to loud hitting the pre, depending on how low the threshold is set and how much compression is used. In this situation, if you had a proper level FX loop, would a compressor make sense at the beginning of the FX loop to make up some gain of the volume difference between strumming lightly and strumming harder. It might seem counterintuitive to the guitarist since you assume it will get quieter when you strum lighter, but it seems like having the ability to have a more consistent volume and just altering your attack on the strings would be helpful. I am not saying the gentle picking should be as loud as a full hard strum, but compressing some of the dynamics, after the pre has done its thing with regard to dirt, would bring up the volume of the softer strumming that is clean to be closer to the volume of the harder strumming that gets dirtier in the pre. Does this make sense? I am going to do some experimenting, but I only have an old GNX1 that has a compressor, so probably not the greatest test subject.
Great vid! I run a Line 6 HXFX with a 2004 JCM 2000 DSL 50 and I use its effects loop with 4cm. Each of the 4 cables is 22' long. I definitely experience tone loss using the HXFX into the effects loop. Is the Kleinulator what I need to correct this? I LOVE my amp and the HXFX on their own, but, together they are more rrama than the Kardashians. Thanks for your advice!
Hello Mason. I'll never get tired to thank for your videos. I would like to make a very important question for me. If I want to use: compressor (for limiting peaks of my Hot Rod Deville), graphic Eq, reverb, delays, volume box and a booster, in what order should I place them? Thanks in advance
So given that you want to put time based effects after the distortion generating gain stage, what if a guitar player was trying to push for power amp distortion instead of pre amp distortion? If I were to use the FX loop in that context, wouldn't I be facing the same issue as putting a reverb in front of a distorting pre amp? Would that mean that I need to mic up the amp without the reverb and run the signal through an outboard FX unit instead? (or more practically nowadays, I'd probably be driving the power amp hard but running the speaker out into a loadbox such as a Torpedo Captor X, after which I can run the line out signal into a time-based FX unit then. Would that be your advice? Thanks!
And then a light came on! This video was VERY helpful in getting me to understand I don't need to include an FX loop in my single-channel, pedal platform amp build! :D 😂
Outstanding presentation!!! My quest to go from a digital effects processor (GNX 3) to stomp boxes had me doing research prior to purchasing any effects boxes. It turns out my Marshall AVT 275's effects loop is set up to run in parallel. My first three stomp boxes that I am wanting to purchase are a phaser and chorus in front of the amp and an echoplex in the loop. But looking at the echoplex and other delay pedals there doesn't seem to be a sensitivity knob. There is an effects loop "mix " knob on the front of the amp, which according to the manual is used to "increase the amount of effect you hear"..... I just wonder if I'm wasting my money on the echoplex or any pedal that I decide to put in the loop without it having a sensitivity knob..... I am already considering adding reverb to the loop chain after this initial set up. Thank you again for your great channel.
Typically with a parallel fx loop you'll run the wet effects in the loop 100% wet and then mix that with the dry signal with some sort of blend control on the amp itself.
It's the first time I'm actually "confronted" with the FX Loop of my Marshall MG100DFX because the Hi-Gain is very Loud and I've come across the information, that a Noise Gate can solve this issue and help me get a tighter Metal tone. I don't use distortion pedals just the built-in one because I love it! Now is my question if a noise gate like the Boss NS-2 is going to help my situation or not? I'd be happy if some can provide or confirm if that is gonna help.
I have a Elmwood Modena m60 (which is easily the best and most flexible amp I’ve ever owned in 30 years of playing) and it has a series/parallel tube buffered loop. It’s the best loop I’ve ever used cuz I love running my time based pedals blended with the dry tone. But it doesn’t have volume pots for send and return. It only has a series/parallel dry/wet pot. I usually run it about 50% wet/dry and it’s dead quiet. Thanks for the vid
I play jazz w/archtops. I just bought Quilters DirectAmp to go directly into the boards at Festivals. I have a simple rig: Poloy Tune in to guitar input, MXR Tremolo, and Boss RV-6 stereo into the effects loop. Do I need a second buffer? I've been adjusting the gain on the Tremolo to match the DirectAmp without the loop engaged.
My Revv G20 has a wonderful buffered FX loop. Seems like Orange uses nice buffered loops on some amps too; the loop on my wife's Crush Bass 50 drives a DI box like a champ!
Hi Mason, as always your videos are worth every second! I'd like to ask a question hoping that you can help me! I bought a 40w point to point tube amp second hand ( a D'Angelo one) that has an effects loop with a pot on the back; the person who sold me it said a couple of strange things about the loop in this amp: it's an active one ( ok); It doesn't sit between preamp and power amp but it is a part of the preamp ( what? Is this possible?); it's not meant to be used with pedals but just with "always on" effects like delays and reverbs ( it could make sense); it's an unusual fx loop because it runs in series but sometimes switches to parallel and the other way around ( what???). I tried a delay through it and it was fine except for the "popping" sound when engaging or disengaging ( solved with a dc filter). I also tried to jump it with a patch cable and the knob acts like some sort of master volume or volume box, from zero to full, ( even with delays in the loop it doesn'control the mix of the effect but still the volume). I've also tried a volume box in the loop, the jhs little black box, and the sound is as quite identical as the jumped loop.I'll appreciate to know what you think about it ( obviously up to where is possible without seeing the amp or the schematics!). Thanks a lot🙏
I have a Quilter Superblock US. But I cannot find info on if the effects loop is buffered or active..do you know? Additionally, what do you think about me putting the Superblock on my pedal board and running a speaker cable to my cabinet? Does that need a buffer? I wanted everything in one place and am trying to avoid power cable spaghetti. Finally, THANK YOU for all of this incredible content. We're lucky to have access to your incredible expertise-very grateful.
Not sure how they're doing it. Maybe email them. Also, since it's pedalboard based it may not be that much of a problem anyway since the cables are so short.
I have a Mesa Boogie Fillmore 50 head. It has a buffered/active effects loop, so can I assume that the 20’ cable run from the effects loop Send TO my pedal board (delay and reverb only with other effects on the front end rather than in the loop)? If so, do I still need a buffer after the reverb (last time based effect) before the 20’ cable going back to the loop return on my amp? Even with a buffered pedal I assume a quality buffer will give me better results than just trusting the pedal’s buffer. This is a great video! Your info is very comprehensive and well presented. Well done! Thanks!!
Excellent information!!!!! I have a Fender Twin Reverb and a Marshall 410. So now you have clarified why things can sound good or bad. So for the Fender I don't use the effects loop which is great. But pedal order is still important. I have to experiment with my Marshall. I have the Echo Plex Delay and Hall of Fame pedals on the Effects loop. In front of the amp they just cut everything out. However I have an Electric Mistress Flanger and Chorus combo pedal that sounds ok in the loop but I should try in front of the amp. I guess if it was good enough for Eddie it should be good for me?!!!!!
There are preferential difference here. Some like Mod in the loop...I don't personally. When I think about guys like Andy Summers and their EHX Electric Mistress sound I think "why do it any different"???
@@VertexEffectsInc Wow...I just experimented with my Electric Mistress Flanger/Chorus pedal in front of the amp. What a difference!!!! Yeah ...it definitely gives me the Andy Summers sound even though I have a Japanese Strat!!!!! Thanks for the information...I am now jamming out on Roxanne and Message in a Bottle much better!!!!
Just ordered a Mesa Boogie MarkV. Is that effects loop any good? Looking to add a few Boss Waza Craft pedals to it (Delay, Chorus, vibrato and RC-500 loop)
Nice one 👍 but how to connect reverb and delay pedals to floor amps, these don't have send/return. I've been connect all in series. Guitar to Overdrive to Distortion to Delay to reverb to floor amps to small mixer and listening on headphones for quite practice. Is there a different or better way?
You mention how a lot of modulation effects should be in front of the preamp and I totally agree for phase and univibes and chorus but I still prefer flange in the loop post the preamp stage. Sometimes I'll put a chorus there too, but usually leave that out front.
I think about a lot of the classical sounds that we base our preference off of for effects like chorus, Flange, etc. Guys like EVH, Andy Summers, The Cure, etc. All those were in front of an amplifier. It's preferential, no "Right Way" but I typically recognize those effects more in that position and generally they're used more clean than dirty anyway.
@@VertexEffectsInc except Cobain used chorus straight in front of a dirty amp and as you said EVH used everything into a cranked Marshall, people think too much about it instead of just going with their ears. Keep up the good work demystifying this stuff for people just getting into it, there’s a lot of people on forums who have opinions without basis.
How familiar are you with the HX Stomp effects loop? I want to run my drives in it so I can put the expression in front of them for pitch shifters, vol, and wah.
Thank you Mason, this was very helpful! I have a line level passive effects loop and was looking at something like the Kleinulator but just moved my reverb/delay to the end of my chain going straight into my amp b/c I just run my amp clean anyways. i prefer this so i can plug my board into whatever and keep my tone as opposed to depending on the dirty channel from my particular amp... so ultimately you almost sold me a Kleinulator but by the end of the video you made me realize I have no need for the effects loop entirely... THANK YOU!
2:22 Hi is it possible that my pedal board has blown my pre amp on the effects loop of my fender blues deluxe. After plugging my pedal board into the effects loop the amp has stopped working.
what is cool you tube and your vedioes I wonder how many music stores have lost guitar instructors and me when I get info from TH-cam I alway send some cash when I have it I think it's the way to say thanks for getting info for free if I had youtube and a cell back in the day >would be in Nashville or playing a/the whisky a gogo I would of probly been one of the band members of the Greatfull Dead why I say this? because finally I get it the language of music..
An amazing video! You should really do a video compare of a passive effects loop and long cables versus an amplifier with an active buffered loop and the same long cable setup. Also dive more into the Klein-ulator. I don't see many TH-cam videos about it. I just bought one and it's solved my tube amp buzzing issue. I'll be doing a video on that soon.
@@VertexEffectsInc agreed. My Peavey VB-2 has the same flaw as the ValveKing amps where there is a buzz with the master vume at 0 or 5, but all the way up at 10. It is because since there is no buffer in the loop, those high impedance resistors in it couple with the volume pot and pickup stray noise. Jumpering the loop bypasses those resistors and eliminates the noise. The Kleinulator does the same by loading down the loop to low impedance eliminating the noise.
Hi Maxon. Please forgive my ignorance. I have a question for you. I understand that my amp (Hot Rod Deville ML) one exactly like the one in your video, has an External Effects Loop built in, also a Preamp Out option and a Power Amp In as well. I've purchased The Sheriff Pedal Preamp, but I'm not sure how to connect it to my amp. According to Victory, the best way to use the Sheriff is from the pedal's Loop input to the amp's Effects Loop send and from the pedal's Loop output to the amp's Effects Loop return, but I've noticed that my amp only has one external Effects Loop. Does this mean I can't use the pedal this way, which Victory say is the most recommended? Thank you in advance for your time. looking very forward to your reply. 🙏🙏
Great explanation. However, why do many high quality clean amps (Henricksen Bud) and preamps ( Grace Designs Felix 2 ) have FX Loops…even stereo FX loops?
What if your using some gain from the amp for your clean sound. I have a Fender hotrod Deluxe tube amp. I like using just a touch of gain with my clean sound?
Hello! You are right about Boss pedals.I have just taken off 3 of them off my pedalboard and my tone came back. It seems the only one working fine in front of the amp and in the effects loop are the Waza Craft type.I guess they have good buffer 1M/100K.Same as the EQ Devices. By plugging and unplugging the return of the effects loop for comparison gave me a proof of what Boss pedals can do to a guitar tone.Too many will suck tone.They were replaced by EQ Devices.. It seems now they all talk to one and other properly on the pedalboard. Thx and have a good life!
Mason, I have an Marshall Artist 3203 30w Head and I run a Avid Eleven Rack for all my effects. Would you recommend running the Eleven Rack through the FX Loop of the Marshall?
Depends if it can take the impedance...could be a cool Wet/Dry option if the Eleven Rack has a mixer so you can do 100% wet effects in parallel with the mixer.
Looking at the Fryette PS 100 Attenuator which has an effects loop. This would solve a bunch things for me. One being a loop. Do you know anything about this Loop?
@@VertexEffectsInc this is the answer I got when I asked. “ The loop is passive with a low impedance send and high impedance return, which is essential for an effects loop. It also has a HI/LO level switch to accommodate different classesof effects inputs and outputs. A loop only needs to be buffered (together with appropriate level conditioning) if the send and return impedances are too high on the send or too low on the return.”
@@emmalukeeric If it is passive it will not be low impedance. That is the reason for active sends: OPAMPs, Emitter Followers (BJT), Cathode Followers - if tubes, Source Followers if depletion MOSFET. If a passive was low impedance, we would not need active circuitry to make it work. As for passive returns, they could can be high enough impedance, but if the send was attenuated for pedal line level, then would have to have active circuitry to bring the level back up. I wonder if this was a stock response or something like that. As I said, Steve Fryette is a smart engineer - way smarter than me. I wonder if there's something else going on in the amplifier??? This response you quoted seems to be omitting some things.
Bassist here. What about modulated reverbs? Or something like the TE-2 : imean, what is that anyway? I have a rumble 100-im guessing that has a passive loop. when i put the delay in front of the amp it rings/squeals; what the heck is that? (Maybe it was something else i don't know, i stopped trying to put the delay in front). It sounds like i need a boost/buffer yes?
Great video as usual Mason I’ve been using FX lives for years and I agree there’s good ones bad ones and maybe stuff in between in the better amps I’ve had to have better effects loops… But what about those of us who predominantly play on a worship band and have to go direct… Not using an amplifier at all. Are used to use a two notes Le-Clean which had a effects loop build in no questioning how good it was but it seemed good but you couldn’t control any kind of levels on it so I don’t know… Now I’m acoustic rig I use a Radial Tonebone PZ Pre, seems to be a really good quality effects loop. Now for my electric rig the brains of it is a Stroman iridium… No effects loop not sure how to handle that
I added an EB Tech Line Level shifter to get the levels right on the loop of my Randall RT100 after I got an ES-8. Now it's great, but it was driving me crazy after I got it and couldn't figure out what was wrong and I couldn't find anything in the ES-8 to change those levels.
That would only solve the issue of the line level, not the fact that it needs a buffer still. Some of the pedals can't even take -10 and will need -20 to not clip.
Mason, I use my Suhr Badger 35 as a pedal platform and was curious if using a parallel mixer such as the Klein makes sense for my delay and reverb in the loop. I get why you say that using the serial loop makes zero difference when I'm getting all the distortion from pedals, but what about a parallel loop in this case?
The Kleinulator is an effects loop buffer, not a mixer. If you want a parallel mixer for your loop, Suhr makes one for that that turns a serial loop into a parallel one. Suhr has a great loop as said in the video as one of our "recommended loops".
Great info and thanks I needed to hear this. I just acquired my dream tube amp (bogner uberschall) i love the clean and dirty channel of it but damn the effects loops sounds terrible "tone sucked, muddy, compressed and noisy", running it in a 4cm every cable 15ft with headrush gigboard processor. It's a series loop with a send out level knob in the back and when using the fx loop your volume channels acts as the fx send level meaning it's almost impossible running it loud without getting the signal too hot 🔥, I find the kleinulator quite promising . Do you have any experience with loops such this one, do you think the kleinulator or anything else could potentially help this situation 🥲 Thanks.
I'm putting together a new setup strictly for home use -- 10' cable from guitar into polytune w/ buffer, a bunch of true bypass pedals, Bonafide output buffer to pre-amp, 10' cable from FX send to a multi-effect pedal (used just for modulation/time) and a looper, 10' cable back to return (I use Ernie Ball cables, mostly). My home amp (Orange OR-15) has a 12AT7 buffered FX loop. Is this sufficient buffering for that part of the signal chain, or should I add additional buffering? If the latter, where should that buffer go?
Is there a unit that can split/multiply the preamp out 1 to 3? This would be both for daisy-chaining 3 'dry' amps as well as an effects lead out to stereo wet power amplifiers? Or does this require a mixer after the 1st amp preamp out? This is so that only one preamp is being used for tone and texture and all other amps are working clean.
@@KKMcK1 you don't necessarily need to get three splitter boxes. The ones that EVH used weren't isolated. There are also other options from Radial if you do actually need galvanic isolation. I would talk to Bray Amplification, he might be able to make you a custom line out box with three line level outputs.
Thanks. Hopefully this can help me with my setup for using my Headrush via 4 cable method into my EVH 5150 IIIS. I am having a heck of a time keeping my Headrush from negatively coloring the tone of my amplifier. I think it has a lot to do with the levels in the send/return on my HR EFX Loop. Just cannot find a happy medium.
Great video! Got me thinking a lot about my FX loop. I don't know much about this topic but I find it fascinating. I also have not looked at my amps schematics. But I assumed that if I am on the gain channel ... my drive control (pot) is before the pre amp out (send) and the master volume is after the send just before the power amp section. So would that not function the same as using a buffered FX loop or am I just way out in left field?
There's no standard to where these volume controls are on the amplifier. The Master volumes can be in different places in the signal path depending on the design. In some cases you can use your amp controls to compensate for make up gain or loss in the loop, but it's still a compromise and you have to set your amp level in a way that optimizes the loop but not necessarily the distortion you want or the output you want. All things being equal, you want a buffered effects loop if you're going to use wet effects in the loop.
Mason, why does the Fender Hot Rod Deville ML (Michael Landau) amp have an FX loop? There is no drive channel on this amp, two clean channels. If you are getting no high gain/distortion from the preamp, why have the FX loop? Usually for clean amps I put everything in front of preamp?
The education I needed 👍🤘 I run a clean amp so no loop for me. Good thing cuz my amp doesn’t have one 😄. I was thinking of adding one. You just saved me a ton of headache.
I bought the Kleinulator....I hope it works. I have a Marshall dsl40cr and the effects loop does not work great with boss pedals. It has one of those effects loops with no send/return volume. You lose volume and treble. It's really irritating that these companies cannot have a bit more transparency in regards to effects loops on amps and pedals. For instance, labelling them specifically for Line level or guitar level would do wonders in the information before you buy it.
@@VertexEffectsInc If it does then I'd say this pedal literally saved the year for me. It's so irritating having an amp that sounds decent only to be completely thrown under the bus with effects loop problems.
I was looking up "for" and "while" loops and think video came up... I watched it again, because its been awhile since i seen this. speaking of which, i want another phaser.
Bass Player, I use an ashley bp-41 preamp racked with my tuner and wireless unit running into a QSC powerlite power amp. I want distortion and compression. Suggestions? Also have a Palmer pocket amp portable bass preamp.
Nice video. Slightly unrelated -I have a question regarding using a rackmount effects unit, in conjunction with pedals. With the set up of the pedals and rackmount before the amp, to reduce potential pedal noise (hum) would it be better to run the pedals in front of the rackmount or after it?
Every video on this channel is suuuper informative and helpful, but this one in particular was a lifesaver. Thanks for the awesome video! It would be sick if you could get your hands on a fender engine room and shed some light on its pros and cons. 12 outputs at 500ma at $250 seems amazing
I actually have an example of a time when you would want to use an effects loop even though you are using pedal distortion into a clean amp: when you have a parallel effects loop (in my case, I use a Boss Katana Artist MKii, which can switch to serial or parallel), and you want to use a different amp (In my case, a 1979 Peavey Classic 100 combo 50w 2x12) for wet signals. I run the Boss effects output into a Tone City Tape Machine delay pedal, and the output from the delay pedal is ran into the Peavey input. Then I use the Peavey's onboard reverb and trem, which I'm able to really crank to a level I couldn't dream of if I were using a dry signal in the Peavey or trying to use the Katana's onboard reverb or trem. Anyway it's a poor man's wet/dry setup. My signal chain is Ram's Head Big Muff Pi nano into Xotic USA E.P. Booster into no-name Klon clone from Wish into Arion Tubulator into Boss BD-2 Blues Driver into Tone City Comp Engine compressor into Tone City Golden Plexi distortion into the Boss Katana's clean channel. I usually use the booster pedal and blues driver for the Les Paul and the Klon for the Strat, and everything but the Big Muff has the drive all the way down. If you read this far, you get an attaboy. Point is, it's unconventional but sounds epic and yuge.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes true. I have to use the effects send for the wet because I am using the line out to send to the Tascam Model 24 for both PA signal and as an interface. I record the input signal from the Boss as well as the room mic channels and the hall mic channel, so I can choose how saturated the final guitar signal is (usually hardly at all, but it's there if-and-when I need it). It's interesting: when practicing I like plenty of bigness and multiple delays and multiple reverbs, but when I record a song and do post-production, I invariable end up editing all that washy, time-based stuff out.
FX LOOP BUFFERS (turn your passive FX Loop into an active one)
Vertex Boost MKII: bit.ly/3fIRxQa
Kleinulator: www.therigdr.com/products/the...
Fuchs Plush FX Loop Buffer: www.adorama.com/pftubefxloop....
MANUFACTURERS WITH GREAT FX LOOPS
Rivera: www.rivera.com
Mesa Boogie: www.mesaboogie.com
Suhr: www.suhr.com
Fuchs: fuchsaudiotechnology.com
Friedman: friedmanamplification.com
Custom Audio: bit.ly/3fNZ2p4
Thanks for posting these reminders ... I always learn something from your videos
@@WayneMemphisMojo 🙏🙏🙏
Can't wait for this.
Very informative (as always) and cool that you have demystified what & how the FX loop works. Any chance y'all could make a short video about using a clean boost in the loop as a quasi attenuator? (Lots of talk but not much fact about doing this)
"typical all of them are gonne b serial loops"
Great, now im hungry
This is the first video that explained the fact that you don't need to use the FX loop if you're keeping the amp clean and using overdrive pedals. Thank you! That clears it up for me.
A very well spoken young man who doesn't uhhh and ummm his way s.l.o.w.l.y through the entire damn video. And he knows his shit too!! Perfect combination 👍 subscribed....
I really appreciate you taking the time to make this video. I’m sure at some point I will understand it. That day is not today but I was able to figure out how to actually play this video which I will count as a win🤙🤘
Man , that cleared up the of the BS ive been told about this topic.
My Prinston doesn't have an FX Loop because it doesn't need one.
Ive had guys tell me I made a mistake buying it, evan though it sounds fantastic.
You just cleared the air.
If the overdrive is coming from a pedal then you don't need a loop.
THANK YOU....
This chanel is the university of youtube pedal chanels, so good!!! Thanks
🙏🙏🙏
You are not just a rig dr but a rig professor. you explain very very well!
I appreciate that!
This quite literally answered all of my questions, and solved all of my problems. Thank you!
Wow! Thanks!
Danke!
❤️❤️❤️
This is a great video on fx loops. No one else covers it this well that I've come across...
Mason these videos are absolutely fantastic 👏 full of really great information and I've fixed issues with my own Big pedalboard thanks to these videos 👍🏼
Glad to help!
Really enjoy your show. The only thing I run through my effects loop is a noise gate / suppressor. This way my delay, reverb units are not affected by the noise gate / suppressor. I don't run a 15:29 big pedal board and have only one pedal ( overdrive ) that is a little on the noisy side. I've always run my pedals in front of the amp.
Thanks, Mason. I found it helpful. Especially since I was planning surgery (converting passive loop to active) and now can consider using a outboard add-on instead.
subbing this channel right now! 3 things i've learned from this are 1) there's ALOT i don't know. 2) the sweet sweet sound i get from my amp, i found by happy accident. 3) i'm going to need to watch this video at least one more time to fully understand all that you laid out. if there was such a thing as a "tone course" or class, it would be highly beneficial, and you'd be a great teacher.
This was Excellent.
I'm so glad you dig it!
You are clearest at explaining how rigs work. Thanks so much, this video cleared up my understanding of effects loops.
Sorry if this is a dumb question but I own a Katana Artist Gen 3 that has an effects loop. I mostly use the effects built or available as patches including wet effects such as reverb, delay, choruses, etc. The distortion and OD effects from the amp are good but I have dry and wet pedals I'd also like in my chain as well as a looping/drum machine pedal.
As far as I understand the distortion and OD pedals should still go: guitar-> OD -> Disto -> amp input. Then my reverb, fuzz, and delay pedals would be connected via the effects loop with the looper pedal at the end of the chain feeding back into the Return of the effects loop?
Because the Katana has all kinds of built-in effects and things like compressors and noise gates, how do those work with the wet pedals and looper in the effects loop? Or are all those effects bypassed prior. I want to use Katana effects in my music and looping but I also want to switch to my pedals when I want with the looper picking those up. Basically I was to be able to utilize any or all given the situation without having to disconnect or rewire my setup simply because I have an amp that has most everything in it but also having standalone pedals. The looper needs to be able to capture whatever is active at the time of recording the loop.
Sorry for this long question but I'm new to setting this up. If I had an amp with nothing but EQ and gain then this would be easy but I feel the Katana and separate pedals with a looper is making it harder for me to understand my best setup. Thanks 👍
Awesome, best FX Loop 101 vlog out there, thank you!
Glad you liked it!
I have a MXR micro amp in my effects loop, great for a volume boost without adding any drive, also I like tremolo and chorus in the loop but phaser in the front, I have one reverb in the loop and a crazy hall reverb in the front. Do whatever you want really, I tried like 20 combos before I found what I wanted.
This channel is so good, right to the point and very well explained.
Glad you think so!
I Agree Alex. I've learned alot from Mason. Great source of information on this channel. oNe LovE from NYC
@@michael_caz_nyc thanks bro!
You've mentioned in several videos about the length of the guitar cable and how it affects your tone. What if you use a wireless system, which I do?
Thank you for this information. I was wondering about the distortion and the loops.
Brilliant presentation!...Thanks Mason you're my hero. Now I understand!
Glad to help!
Thank you so much for clearing that up for me. I set up my pedal board to run through a PA and when I experimented with my amp at home trying to use the effects loop it sounded better just running it though the amp and not through the loop.
Now I feel better knowing why.
Great tutorial!
What do you think about using a noise gate thru the loop? Wouldn’t that cut down on the loud hiss on dirty channels?
Great talk, Mason! I actually have an old 2 channel amp that has separate passive send/returns for the clean and OD channels. I had a Moss at Brown Note (long gone...) build me a single rack space, DOUBLE Dumble-ator device, so that I'd have one for each side of the amp. It's tube based, and works wonders with maintaining my tone.
That's a great idea!
Wow, this was fantastic! Didn't realize there was so much about effects loops, thankfully the one in my amp is active even though I never thought to check for it before
Glad it helped!
Super clear. Thank you. It made so much sense. Well done chaps!
I appreciate your videos and catch them when I can. As usual, there is a lot of good information here.
I have a few (very) basic questions: I have an older Fender Concert amp with the buffered effects loop. I assume that is not a solid state loop, but if you would, please confirm. And I also assume, based on the video, that I should use that effects loop for time based effects, but not for my compressor, distortion and EQ pedals.
Thanks again for your insightful videos!
Love this! Been using the effects loop on my Boss Katana 100 this year. Great to know more about it from the Rig Doctor!
Very cool!
Incredible knowledge… you may be the only person who is able to explain this logically… sounds so simple now
Thanks so much!!!
As always, very instructional video I have a clean setup and I like to use the effects loop because the coloration of the preamp, the EQ section of my preamp of my clean amp colors, my tone and so I want all of that coming through the effects loop instead of having those. Effects. Before that coloration, but I agree that mostly you probably don't need it unless for those reasons
Love your channel.
I have one critique. Please get rid of the annoying "pop" sounds.
Please!
It distracts from what your saying and, in my situation, forces me to lower the volume because the "pop" volume is louder than your voice.
In the case that you wanna run your modulation pedals with your amp derived distortion, would you want those in the fx loop?
Dude! This one is very nice to learn and understand your gear inside out. +1 sub!
Awesome, thank you!
@@VertexEffectsInc Mason, I have to tell you, this one helped me get rid of a buzz in my chain after a lo-o-ong time. Now I realy understand how's and why's, and I have a consequent preset now between gain via pedal or the IRT amp itself, and even the Swedisch chainsaw combination of amp and the HM2. For the rest very nice delay swells and reverbs and again combinations with the gain. Compression only in rare occasions, I rather play with intonation. Where and when do you use compression or can you recommand one of your clips about that topic? (boss cp-1x is the one at the start of my chain) Kind regards from Belgium
Curious about something. I have always seen Compressors in front of the pre on a tube amp, but I know many blues players who like to have the pre set to edge of breakup. Play light and it is clean and dig in and get the crunch. If a compressor is in front, it seems like that limits the dynamic range of soft to loud hitting the pre, depending on how low the threshold is set and how much compression is used. In this situation, if you had a proper level FX loop, would a compressor make sense at the beginning of the FX loop to make up some gain of the volume difference between strumming lightly and strumming harder. It might seem counterintuitive to the guitarist since you assume it will get quieter when you strum lighter, but it seems like having the ability to have a more consistent volume and just altering your attack on the strings would be helpful. I am not saying the gentle picking should be as loud as a full hard strum, but compressing some of the dynamics, after the pre has done its thing with regard to dirt, would bring up the volume of the softer strumming that is clean to be closer to the volume of the harder strumming that gets dirtier in the pre. Does this make sense?
I am going to do some experimenting, but I only have an old GNX1 that has a compressor, so probably not the greatest test subject.
Compressors in a studio are after the mic, so some people opt to emulate that in their rigs as a consequence.
Placing the Ripley Fall into the front of the amp or into the FX loop? Cheers...
Great vid! I run a Line 6 HXFX with a 2004 JCM 2000 DSL 50 and I use its effects loop with 4cm. Each of the 4 cables is 22' long. I definitely experience tone loss using the HXFX into the effects loop. Is the Kleinulator what I need to correct this? I LOVE my amp and the HXFX on their own, but, together they are more rrama than the Kardashians. Thanks for your advice!
It will turn that into an active loop with the right buffering.
Hello Mason. I'll never get tired to thank for your videos. I would like to make a very important question for me. If I want to use: compressor (for limiting peaks of my Hot Rod Deville), graphic Eq, reverb, delays, volume box and a booster, in what order should I place them? Thanks in advance
Watch our advanced signal path video
So given that you want to put time based effects after the distortion generating gain stage, what if a guitar player was trying to push for power amp distortion instead of pre amp distortion? If I were to use the FX loop in that context, wouldn't I be facing the same issue as putting a reverb in front of a distorting pre amp? Would that mean that I need to mic up the amp without the reverb and run the signal through an outboard FX unit instead? (or more practically nowadays, I'd probably be driving the power amp hard but running the speaker out into a loadbox such as a Torpedo Captor X, after which I can run the line out signal into a time-based FX unit then. Would that be your advice? Thanks!
You can boost into the power amp, fx return, if you want to do that.
And then a light came on! This video was VERY helpful in getting me to understand I don't need to include an FX loop in my single-channel, pedal platform amp build! :D 😂
Outstanding presentation!!! My quest to go from a digital effects processor (GNX 3) to stomp boxes had me doing research prior to purchasing any effects boxes. It turns out my Marshall AVT 275's effects loop is set up to run in parallel. My first three stomp boxes that I am wanting to purchase are a phaser and chorus in front of the amp and an echoplex in the loop. But looking at the echoplex and other delay pedals there doesn't seem to be a sensitivity knob. There is an effects loop "mix " knob on the front of the amp, which according to the manual is used to "increase the amount of effect you hear"..... I just wonder if I'm wasting my money on the echoplex or any pedal that I decide to put in the loop without it having a sensitivity knob..... I am already considering adding reverb to the loop chain after this initial set up. Thank you again for your great channel.
Typically with a parallel fx loop you'll run the wet effects in the loop 100% wet and then mix that with the dry signal with some sort of blend control on the amp itself.
It's the first time I'm actually "confronted" with the FX Loop of my Marshall MG100DFX because the Hi-Gain is very Loud and I've come across the information, that a Noise Gate can solve this issue and help me get a tighter Metal tone. I don't use distortion pedals just the built-in one because I love it!
Now is my question if a noise gate like the Boss NS-2 is going to help my situation or not?
I'd be happy if some can provide or confirm if that is gonna help.
I have a Elmwood Modena m60 (which is easily the best and most flexible amp I’ve ever owned in 30 years of playing) and it has a series/parallel tube buffered loop. It’s the best loop I’ve ever used cuz I love running my time based pedals blended with the dry tone. But it doesn’t have volume pots for send and return. It only has a series/parallel dry/wet pot. I usually run it about 50% wet/dry and it’s dead quiet. Thanks for the vid
Nice! Thanks for watching!
I play jazz w/archtops. I just bought Quilters DirectAmp to go directly into the boards at Festivals. I have a simple rig: Poloy Tune in to guitar input, MXR Tremolo, and Boss RV-6 stereo into the effects loop. Do I need a second buffer? I've been adjusting the gain on the Tremolo to match the DirectAmp without the loop engaged.
My Revv G20 has a wonderful buffered FX loop. Seems like Orange uses nice buffered loops on some amps too; the loop on my wife's Crush Bass 50 drives a DI box like a champ!
Hi Mason, as always your videos are worth every second! I'd like to ask a question hoping that you can help me! I bought a 40w point to point tube amp second hand ( a D'Angelo one) that has an effects loop with a pot on the back; the person who sold me it said a couple of strange things about the loop in this amp: it's an active one ( ok); It doesn't sit between preamp and power amp but it is a part of the preamp ( what? Is this possible?); it's not meant to be used with pedals but just with "always on" effects like delays and reverbs ( it could make sense); it's an unusual fx loop because it runs in series but sometimes switches to parallel and the other way around ( what???).
I tried a delay through it and it was fine except for the "popping" sound when engaging or disengaging ( solved with a dc filter). I also tried to jump it with a patch cable and the knob acts like some sort of master volume or volume box, from zero to full, ( even with delays in the loop it doesn'control the mix of the effect but still the volume). I've also tried a volume box in the loop, the jhs little black box, and the sound is as quite identical as the jumped loop.I'll appreciate to know what you think about it ( obviously up to where is possible without seeing the amp or the schematics!).
Thanks a lot🙏
JHS pedals brought up a great idea about using a volume pedal in effects loop to crank the preamp but control loudness!
I wish he'd talked about impedance though. You need to have the right volume pedal to work properly here or it won't work that great.
@@VertexEffectsInc never thought of that. Thanks for pointing out!
Killer in depth explanation, very nice
🙏🙏🙏 thanks for watching!
I have a Quilter Superblock US. But I cannot find info on if the effects loop is buffered or active..do you know? Additionally, what do you think about me putting the Superblock on my pedal board and running a speaker cable to my cabinet? Does that need a buffer? I wanted everything in one place and am trying to avoid power cable spaghetti. Finally, THANK YOU for all of this incredible content. We're lucky to have access to your incredible expertise-very grateful.
Not sure how they're doing it. Maybe email them. Also, since it's pedalboard based it may not be that much of a problem anyway since the cables are so short.
I have a Mesa Boogie Fillmore 50 head. It has a buffered/active effects loop, so can I assume that the 20’ cable run from the effects loop Send TO my pedal board (delay and reverb only with other effects on the front end rather than in the loop)? If so, do I still need a buffer after the reverb (last time based effect) before the 20’ cable going back to the loop return on my amp? Even with a buffered pedal I assume a quality buffer will give me better results than just trusting the pedal’s buffer. This is a great video! Your info is very comprehensive and well presented. Well done! Thanks!!
Depends on the output impedance of the last pedal in the loop. 100 ohm would be ideal.
Excellent information!!!!! I have a Fender Twin Reverb and a Marshall 410. So now you have clarified why things can sound good or bad. So for the Fender I don't use the effects loop which is great. But pedal order is still important. I have to experiment with my Marshall. I have the Echo Plex Delay and Hall of Fame pedals on the Effects loop. In front of the amp they just cut everything out. However I have an Electric Mistress Flanger and Chorus combo pedal that sounds ok in the loop but I should try in front of the amp. I guess if it was good enough for Eddie it should be good for me?!!!!!
There are preferential difference here. Some like Mod in the loop...I don't personally. When I think about guys like Andy Summers and their EHX Electric Mistress sound I think "why do it any different"???
@@VertexEffectsInc Wow...I just experimented with my Electric Mistress Flanger/Chorus pedal in front of the amp. What a difference!!!! Yeah ...it definitely gives me the Andy Summers sound even though I have a Japanese Strat!!!!! Thanks for the information...I am now jamming out on Roxanne and Message in a Bottle much better!!!!
@@jamesbond4633 Perfect!
Just ordered a Mesa Boogie MarkV. Is that effects loop any good? Looking to add a few Boss Waza Craft pedals to it (Delay, Chorus, vibrato and RC-500 loop)
Those have good ones!!
Nice one 👍 but how to connect reverb and delay pedals to floor amps, these don't have send/return. I've been connect all in series. Guitar to Overdrive to Distortion to Delay to reverb to floor amps to small mixer and listening on headphones for quite practice. Is there a different or better way?
You mention how a lot of modulation effects should be in front of the preamp and I totally agree for phase and univibes and chorus but I still prefer flange in the loop post the preamp stage. Sometimes I'll put a chorus there too, but usually leave that out front.
I think about a lot of the classical sounds that we base our preference off of for effects like chorus, Flange, etc. Guys like EVH, Andy Summers, The Cure, etc. All those were in front of an amplifier. It's preferential, no "Right Way" but I typically recognize those effects more in that position and generally they're used more clean than dirty anyway.
@@VertexEffectsInc except Cobain used chorus straight in front of a dirty amp and as you said EVH used everything into a cranked Marshall, people think too much about it instead of just going with their ears. Keep up the good work demystifying this stuff for people just getting into it, there’s a lot of people on forums who have opinions without basis.
How familiar are you with the HX Stomp effects loop? I want to run my drives in it so I can put the expression in front of them for pitch shifters, vol, and wah.
Thank you Mason, this was very helpful! I have a line level passive effects loop and was looking at something like the Kleinulator but just moved my reverb/delay to the end of my chain going straight into my amp b/c I just run my amp clean anyways. i prefer this so i can plug my board into whatever and keep my tone as opposed to depending on the dirty channel from my particular amp... so ultimately you almost sold me a Kleinulator but by the end of the video you made me realize I have no need for the effects loop entirely... THANK YOU!
Sure thing!
Best video on the subject I've found. Thanks.
Wow, thanks!
I am still in the add preview but this channel is the greatest about pedalstuff.😂😍
Wow, thanks!
2:22 Hi is it possible that my pedal board has blown my pre amp on the effects loop of my fender blues deluxe. After plugging my pedal board into the effects loop the amp has stopped working.
Figure it out
Would love to see a demo of that Klienulator. Maybe include how to incorporate it into a board with a switcher?
You would just treat it like any 4CM set up. Any active loop buffer lives at the amp side, not pedalboard.
Do you know about the loops in the Two-Rock amps? How are they?
I think some have a buffered FX Loop, some are passive. The one I know that is buffered is the newest TS-1 amplifier - it has a Dumbleator built in.
wow thank you just want to add a little reverb with a cheap reverb pedal to my 1watt amp.
Cool!
what is cool you tube and your vedioes I wonder how many music stores have lost guitar instructors and me when I get info from TH-cam I alway send some cash when I have it I think it's the way to say thanks for getting info for free if I had youtube and a cell back in the day >would be in Nashville or playing a/the whisky a gogo I would of probly been one of the band members of the Greatfull Dead why I say this? because finally I get it the language of music..
An amazing video! You should really do a video compare of a passive effects loop and long cables versus an amplifier with an active buffered loop and the same long cable setup.
Also dive more into the Klein-ulator. I don't see many TH-cam videos about it. I just bought one and it's solved my tube amp buzzing issue. I'll be doing a video on that soon.
Good call...would be good to see how much it impacts the tone.
@@VertexEffectsInc agreed. My Peavey VB-2 has the same flaw as the ValveKing amps where there is a buzz with the master vume at 0 or 5, but all the way up at 10.
It is because since there is no buffer in the loop, those high impedance resistors in it couple with the volume pot and pickup stray noise. Jumpering the loop bypasses those resistors and eliminates the noise. The Kleinulator does the same by loading down the loop to low impedance eliminating the noise.
Hi Maxon. Please forgive my ignorance. I have a question for you. I understand that my amp (Hot Rod Deville ML) one exactly like the one in your video, has an External Effects Loop built in, also a Preamp Out option and a Power Amp In as well. I've purchased The Sheriff Pedal Preamp, but I'm not sure how to connect it to my amp. According to Victory, the best way to use the Sheriff is from the pedal's Loop input to the amp's Effects Loop send and from the pedal's Loop output to the amp's Effects Loop return, but I've noticed that my amp only has one external Effects Loop. Does this mean I can't use the pedal this way, which Victory say is the most recommended? Thank you in advance for your time. looking very forward to your reply. 🙏🙏
thank you so much for your tutorials. You are a very good coach about all thoses topics
Great explanation. However, why do many high quality clean amps (Henricksen Bud) and preamps ( Grace Designs Felix 2 ) have FX Loops…even stereo FX loops?
What if your using some gain from the amp for your clean sound. I have a Fender hotrod Deluxe tube amp. I like using just a touch of gain with my clean sound?
Finally I could understand fx loop. great video
Ooh Boy....NOTHING is as ever "simple" as it may seem. Thank You for the Warnings Sir.
You are very welcome
Hello! You are right about Boss pedals.I have just taken off 3 of them off my pedalboard and my tone came back. It seems the only one working fine in front of the amp and in the effects loop are the Waza Craft type.I guess they have good buffer 1M/100K.Same as the EQ Devices.
By plugging and unplugging the return of the effects loop for comparison gave me a proof of what Boss pedals can do to a guitar tone.Too many will suck tone.They were replaced by EQ Devices..
It seems now they all talk to one and other properly on the pedalboard.
Thx and have a good life!
The Waza's seem to have the same impedances as does the Earthquaker. Remember it should be 100 ohms, not 100K ohms (100,000).
Does Kleinolator works when my fx loop is too hot?
That send level can adjust the level hitting your pedals between instrument and line level. So yes.
Mason, I have an Marshall Artist 3203 30w Head and I run a Avid Eleven Rack for all my effects. Would you recommend running the Eleven Rack through the FX Loop of the Marshall?
Depends if it can take the impedance...could be a cool Wet/Dry option if the Eleven Rack has a mixer so you can do 100% wet effects in parallel with the mixer.
Can or should you put an EQ pedal in the loop ?
Depends what you're wanting to EQ. This will EQ after the preamp section if it's in the effects loop.
@@VertexEffectsInc just wondering if it's better in the loop or after the distortion. So distortion, EQ, chorus ?
@@scottylund5890 depends what you need EQ for...are you EQing the amp or your pedals?
@@VertexEffectsInc the amp.. So it doesn't sound so muddy.. I'm using a orange micro dark.
@@VertexEffectsInc sorry, new to ask this and trying to learn.. I'm guessing in the loop of I'm eqing the amp.
Looking at the Fryette PS 100 Attenuator which has an effects loop. This would solve a bunch things for me. One being a loop. Do you know anything about this Loop?
I don't, what's the impedance? Does it have a send/return control? Steve is pretty good with this stuff, I imagine it would be a good quality.
@@VertexEffectsInc this is the answer I got when I asked. “
The loop is passive with a low impedance send and high impedance return, which is essential for an effects loop.
It also has a HI/LO level switch to accommodate different classesof effects inputs and outputs.
A loop only needs to be buffered (together with appropriate level conditioning) if the send and return impedances are too high on the send or too low on the return.”
@@emmalukeeric If it is passive it will not be low impedance. That is the reason for active sends: OPAMPs, Emitter Followers (BJT), Cathode Followers - if tubes, Source Followers if depletion MOSFET. If a passive was low impedance, we would not need active circuitry to make it work. As for passive returns, they could can be high enough impedance, but if the send was attenuated for pedal line level, then would have to have active circuitry to bring the level back up. I wonder if this was a stock response or something like that. As I said, Steve Fryette is a smart engineer - way smarter than me. I wonder if there's something else going on in the amplifier??? This response you quoted seems to be omitting some things.
Bassist here. What about modulated reverbs? Or something like the TE-2 : imean, what is that anyway? I have a rumble 100-im guessing that has a passive loop. when i put the delay in front of the amp it rings/squeals; what the heck is that? (Maybe it was something else i don't know, i stopped trying to put the delay in front). It sounds like i need a boost/buffer yes?
If it's a reverb and you're getting gain from the amp, then it would count as "time based" and go into the loop.
Great video as usual Mason I’ve been using FX lives for years and I agree there’s good ones bad ones and maybe stuff in between in the better amps I’ve had to have better effects loops… But what about those of us who predominantly play on a worship band and have to go direct… Not using an amplifier at all. Are used to use a two notes Le-Clean which had a effects loop build in no questioning how good it was but it seemed good but you couldn’t control any kind of levels on it so I don’t know… Now I’m acoustic rig I use a Radial Tonebone PZ Pre, seems to be a really good quality effects loop. Now for my electric rig the brains of it is a Stroman iridium… No effects loop not sure how to handle that
Watch our video with Mitch Gallagher at Sweetwater on their channel on building an ampless rig. Lots of good info :)
I added an EB Tech Line Level shifter to get the levels right on the loop of my Randall RT100 after I got an ES-8. Now it's great, but it was driving me crazy after I got it and couldn't figure out what was wrong and I couldn't find anything in the ES-8 to change those levels.
That would only solve the issue of the line level, not the fact that it needs a buffer still. Some of the pedals can't even take -10 and will need -20 to not clip.
The Kleinulator is no longer being sold by anyone (9:35). Could you please suggest some other kind of equipment that does the same thing?
Mason, I use my Suhr Badger 35 as a pedal platform and was curious if using a parallel mixer such as the Klein makes sense for my delay and reverb in the loop. I get why you say that using the serial loop makes zero difference when I'm getting all the distortion from pedals, but what about a parallel loop in this case?
The Klienulator is not a parallel mixer. It's a buffer for a serial loop. The loop in the Suhr is fine as is.
The Kleinulator is an effects loop buffer, not a mixer. If you want a parallel mixer for your loop, Suhr makes one for that that turns a serial loop into a parallel one. Suhr has a great loop as said in the video as one of our "recommended loops".
Great info and thanks I needed to hear this. I just acquired my dream tube amp (bogner uberschall) i love the clean and dirty channel of it but damn the effects loops sounds terrible "tone sucked, muddy, compressed and noisy", running it in a 4cm every cable 15ft with headrush gigboard processor. It's a series loop with a send out level knob in the back and when using the fx loop your volume channels acts as the fx send level meaning it's almost impossible running it loud without getting the signal too hot 🔥, I find the kleinulator quite promising . Do you have any experience with loops such this one, do you think the kleinulator or anything else could potentially help this situation 🥲
Thanks.
Kleinulator is the move
I'm putting together a new setup strictly for home use -- 10' cable from guitar into polytune w/ buffer, a bunch of true bypass pedals, Bonafide output buffer to pre-amp, 10' cable from FX send to a multi-effect pedal (used just for modulation/time) and a looper, 10' cable back to return (I use Ernie Ball cables, mostly). My home amp (Orange OR-15) has a 12AT7 buffered FX loop. Is this sufficient buffering for that part of the signal chain, or should I add additional buffering? If the latter, where should that buffer go?
Is there a unit that can split/multiply the preamp out 1 to 3? This would be both for daisy-chaining 3 'dry' amps as well as an effects lead out to stereo wet power amplifiers? Or does this require a mixer after the 1st amp preamp out? This is so that only one preamp is being used for tone and texture and all other amps are working clean.
A line out box with three outputs. EVH did this.
@@VertexEffectsInc The only thing I could find on the market is the Lehle P split III which I would need to use 2 of in series @ $180 each. OUCH!!!
@@KKMcK1 you don't necessarily need to get three splitter boxes. The ones that EVH used weren't isolated. There are also other options from Radial if you do actually need galvanic isolation. I would talk to Bray Amplification, he might be able to make you a custom line out box with three line level outputs.
Thanks. Hopefully this can help me with my setup for using my Headrush via 4 cable method into my EVH 5150 IIIS. I am having a heck of a time keeping my Headrush from negatively coloring the tone of my amplifier. I think it has a lot to do with the levels in the send/return on my HR EFX Loop. Just cannot find a happy medium.
May have to do with the effects loop itself, nothing to do with the Headrush.
What about using a fractal fm3 in the effects loop? Should I still buffer? Turn it into an active fx loop?
Great video! Got me thinking a lot about my FX loop. I don't know much about this topic but I find it fascinating. I also have not looked at my amps schematics. But I assumed that if I am on the gain channel ... my drive control (pot) is before the pre amp out (send) and the master volume is after the send just before the power amp section. So would that not function the same as using a buffered FX loop or am I just way out in left field?
There's no standard to where these volume controls are on the amplifier. The Master volumes can be in different places in the signal path depending on the design. In some cases you can use your amp controls to compensate for make up gain or loss in the loop, but it's still a compromise and you have to set your amp level in a way that optimizes the loop but not necessarily the distortion you want or the output you want. All things being equal, you want a buffered effects loop if you're going to use wet effects in the loop.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you for the clarification. Makes sense.
Thanks Doc I feel better already
🥳🥳🥳🙏🙏🙏
Very educating. Thank you Uncle Mason
Thanks for watching!
Mason, why does the Fender Hot Rod Deville ML (Michael Landau) amp have an FX loop? There is no drive channel on this amp, two clean channels. If you are getting no high gain/distortion from the preamp, why have the FX loop? Usually for clean amps I put everything in front of preamp?
It’s a passive loop. I wouldn’t use it however as this amp is really clean
The education I needed 👍🤘
I run a clean amp so no loop for me. Good thing cuz my amp doesn’t have one 😄. I was thinking of adding one. You just saved me a ton of headache.
Hi Mason, Not sure if this has been asked and answered. How do you cut the latency when using a digital delay pedal in the effects loop?
I bought the Kleinulator....I hope it works. I have a Marshall dsl40cr and the effects loop does not work great with boss pedals. It has one of those effects loops with no send/return volume. You lose volume and treble. It's really irritating that these companies cannot have a bit more transparency in regards to effects loops on amps and pedals. For instance, labelling them specifically for Line level or guitar level would do wonders in the information before you buy it.
This should be great for you!
@@VertexEffectsInc If it does then I'd say this pedal literally saved the year for me. It's so irritating having an amp that sounds decent only to be completely thrown under the bus with effects loop problems.
Great explanation !!!
Glad it helped!
I meant the master volume is after the return just before the power amp section. That's how I understand it but that does not mean I am correct
See my response to your other comment :)
I was looking up "for" and "while" loops and think video came up... I watched it again, because its been awhile since i seen this. speaking of which, i want another phaser.
Hope it helps!
Bass Player, I use an ashley bp-41 preamp racked with my tuner and wireless unit running into a QSC powerlite power amp. I want distortion and compression. Suggestions? Also have a Palmer pocket amp portable bass preamp.
Nice video. Slightly unrelated -I have a question regarding using a rackmount effects unit, in conjunction with pedals. With the set up of the pedals and rackmount before the amp, to reduce potential pedal noise (hum) would it be better to run the pedals in front of the rackmount or after it?
I like my Big Muff in the loop so I can send preamp overdrive into it, sounds killer.
Every video on this channel is suuuper informative and helpful, but this one in particular was a lifesaver. Thanks for the awesome video! It would be sick if you could get your hands on a fender engine room and shed some light on its pros and cons. 12 outputs at 500ma at $250 seems amazing
Thanks for watching. I reached out to Fender, no response.
With their history of appreciating vintage, they’re probably on windows 98 and have not had a chance to respond. Lol. Hopefully they reach out soon
I actually have an example of a time when you would want to use an effects loop even though you are using pedal distortion into a clean amp: when you have a parallel effects loop (in my case, I use a Boss Katana Artist MKii, which can switch to serial or parallel), and you want to use a different amp (In my case, a 1979 Peavey Classic 100 combo 50w 2x12) for wet signals. I run the Boss effects output into a Tone City Tape Machine delay pedal, and the output from the delay pedal is ran into the Peavey input. Then I use the Peavey's onboard reverb and trem, which I'm able to really crank to a level I couldn't dream of if I were using a dry signal in the Peavey or trying to use the Katana's onboard reverb or trem. Anyway it's a poor man's wet/dry setup. My signal chain is Ram's Head Big Muff Pi nano into Xotic USA E.P. Booster into no-name Klon clone from Wish into Arion Tubulator into Boss BD-2 Blues Driver into Tone City Comp Engine compressor into Tone City Golden Plexi distortion into the Boss Katana's clean channel. I usually use the booster pedal and blues driver for the Les Paul and the Klon for the Strat, and everything but the Big Muff has the drive all the way down. If you read this far, you get an attaboy. Point is, it's unconventional but sounds epic and yuge.
You're really using your FX Loop send like a line level out almost at that point, not really a true effects loop in this case.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes true. I have to use the effects send for the wet because I am using the line out to send to the Tascam Model 24 for both PA signal and as an interface. I record the input signal from the Boss as well as the room mic channels and the hall mic channel, so I can choose how saturated the final guitar signal is (usually hardly at all, but it's there if-and-when I need it). It's interesting: when practicing I like plenty of bigness and multiple delays and multiple reverbs, but when I record a song and do post-production, I invariable end up editing all that washy, time-based stuff out.