Nostalgia Bias in the Racing Game Community
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มิ.ย. 2024
- My Patreon: / roflwaffle
The racing game genre peaked sometime in the 2000’s, right? Most racing game fans would agree with that - but how has this idea changed people’s perceptions of modern racing games and what can we, as a fanbase, be held responsible for?
If your comment is featured in this video please do not take what I say about it personally. I’m purely judging the comment, not you as an individual.
Music (in order):
Main Menu Theme - Marc Canham (DRIV3R)
Burnin' Rubber - Hiroshi Okubo (Ridge Racer Type 4)
Slipstream - Isamu Ohira (Gran Turismo 3)
Moon Over The Castle (Extended Orchestral Version) - Masahiro Andoh (Gran Turismo 4)
Hypnosis - Isamu Ohira (Gran Tursimo 4)
EV - Lance Hayes (Forza Motorsport 4)
Kick It Up a Notch - Paul Linford (Need For Speed Most Wanted)
Tense - Paul Linford (Need For Speed Most Wanted)
Euphoria - Kohta Takahashi (Ridge Racer V)
Glamorous Lips - KEMMEI (Gran Turismo 6)
Beautiful Area - Akihisa Yamaguchi (Gran Turismo 5)
Main Menu Theme - Marc Canham (DRIV3R)
Channels credited:
/ @paragleiber
/ @firstplayshd
/ @xtimelessgaming
/ @dustinedenyt
/ @roauraizo
/ @egametrailers
/ @hikarisakai
/ @correacars
/ @xboxkaifam
/ @racinggamearchive
/ @tpl-motorsport
/ @shirrako
/ @badassbaboon
/ @kappalizo9564
/ @crowned
/ @isuckatdriving
/ @still_guns
/ @aarava
/ @wonder2k19
/ @gmtk
/ @itsemjayy
/ @speedy8207
/ @johngodgames
/ @vegetablestudio
/ @lompi
/ @teakanji
Sources:
www.ign.com/articles/gran-tur...
www.metacritic.com/game/plays...
www.gtplanet.net/yamauchi-int...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Tu...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Tu...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_M...)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_M...
nfssoundtrack.com/unbound/
nfssoundtrack.com/gt3/
nfssoundtrack.com/mw/
www.gran-turismo.com/us/gt7/n...
• Post
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_H...
0:00 Introduction
2:09 Racing Game Discourse, Opinions and Reactions
8:36 Nostalgia Bias with Gran Turismo
14:32 Nostalgia Bias with Forza Motorsport
17:50 Nostalgia Bias with Need For Speed
25:01 The General Impact of Nostalgia Bias
26:25 Game Designers Don’t Know What Players Want
29:46 Do Players Even Understand What They Want?
34:23 Innovation, Expectation and Reception
41:37 Conclusions - เกม
Innovation takes effort, spoon-feeding people content is efficient and much more monetizable, and this goes for more than just gaming in this day and age.
That's exactly what I think. The problem is not necessarly with the genre, but with the industry as a whole. Take the XP system in the new FM, it's indeed a good a idea, however XP systems can be easily turned into a grindfest geared towards shady microtransactions.
it's rare to play a game nowadays and not have that feeling that the game wants to sell you useless trinkets.
I hate to be this guy, but that's why FromSoftware is the best AAA developer right now. They don't spoon feed. Their games are full of depth, and it's up to you to find it.
Before FromSoftware, all I played was racing games.
They need to release an offline version of the next iteration of the GT series. I don't give 2 craps about racing people from Brazil who punt you several times per sector
this is so true genuinely with everything in life
@@gearmeisterand also online only gameplay for GT7 that completely ruined everything. Same goes to Forza Motorsport 8 for online only for even singleplayer career mode.
As a modder of the classic NFS games, i.e. Most Wanted Pepega Edition and ProStreet Edition, I got to experience this whole drama from a perspecitive that's very close to developer's and it's quite shocking. For reference, our mods have quite the reach in the community (for better or for worse as their contents are hit or miss by design) to the point where the likes of BlackPanthaa have made a video about our more recenet mod (ProStreet) not living up to the philosophy of the older one (Most Wanted). This opinion so popular that I constantly read stuff like it on Social Media.
As I watched that video and read these criticisms about our project only one thought crossed my mind: What am I supposed to do with this? Let me elaborate, although it's pretty much similar to what you said in this video, which is why I'm writing this comment in the first place: With the newer mod we wanted to go a more mature path using our increased modding experience, so we did just that. So for a hypothetical next mod, we either revert back to the style of the older, less mature mod, but sacrifice authenticity because it's just not what we want to do, or we go foward but potentially upset a lot of people. So Everytime I read that statement, in my mind it rings like "Please do what you don't want to do" and it's unimaginable how dreadful it is to read. And funnily enough we're basically stuck in the same loop that the whole franchise is in currently.
But us modders thankfully have that freedom of doing what we want to, because we technically don't have to please an audience - we aren't tied to money, press, licenses and so on. So technically you could argue that the critique I mentioned doesn't really apply to game developers themselves, which brings me to a second and last thing I've read from our community.
Now from people liking what we do, we read (also on Social Media) stuff like "EA should hire them" and "I'm more hyped for this mod than the new NFS". And, while it might be nice to read the first couple of times, again I don't really understand what this is doing. By hiring modders you're effectively bounding them to the exact restrictions listed above and it would result in the same people that are the actual game developers. Are they maybe implying that game developers aren't passionate? That's a pretty unfair assumption and honestly I wouldn't say so, especially looking at newer titles like NFS Unbound.
This all has put me in a spot where I stopped modding basically for good, and it doesn't help that modding communities in their cores are inherently toxic as well. And looking at the fact that what I mentioned here basically reflects what you said in the video really makes me feel bad for the game developers. I'm probably (hopefully) exaggerating, but I can see more and more game developers just quitting and the work field becoming more and more slim over the years. Anyway, thanks for reading this massive wall of text that maybe came off as self-advertisement at first, but I hope you got to understand that it wasn't meant this way at all. Rather the things said in this (great!) video just resonated with me on a personal level and I wanted to share it along with some proof that it actually does.
~ Cheers
Edit: This is BlackPanthaa's video I was talking about: th-cam.com/video/QG6INgOKDt0/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUXYmxhY2twYW50aGFhIHBlcGVnYSBtb2Q%3D
BlackPanthaa is a fool making videos for children his opinions shouldn't be taken seriously, don't let it go to your head. I love both the silly and mature direction and I will enjoy your future projects whatever the result. If thing good, it good.
@@dopey473 This. BP comes off like any other over-hyper clickbait TH-camr who yells into a microphone to dangle keys in front of his audience, and doesn't really add anything beyond that in most cases. Taking his criticisms to heart just seems pointless.
If KuruHS had something negative to say about such mods, then I could see such opinions and criticisms holding more weight. But that's the thing; Kuru adores such mods, and I generally take his word as gospel when it comes to all things NFS these days. Not everything, but generally my own opinions match his.
As for the Pepega Mods, they're all great in their own ways. I'm glad that they try to evolve and do different things(almost like MW and ProStreet were two completely different games).
It’s honestly ridiculous how some fans in certain racing communities (cough cough Kuru) would praise the living shit out of mods like it’s the greatest thing ever, when in truth it’s just “Need For Speed mod but I throw one billion cops at you that instantly kill you because who needs balance?”
The main reason why that black panthaas vid got dislike bombed was because he got into some twitter argument, so it might seem like his fans are hating on it, but no.
BP is paid by EA so I wouldn't worry about what he says
The problem I have with current games, with the focus being more on multiplayer, it's diluted offline game progression, since people want access to everything now. In the past certain cars or tracks would not be available until a certain level was reached or unlocked and that could take a while, but that was part of the fun, going about what car or tune would work, the game lasted longer. Where now caught between sandbox & progression, more sandbox.
And also online only gameplays much like Forza Motorsport 8 and GT7 for example.
GT6 had all cars unlocked from the start without giving you instant access. You still have to buy them. Plus you still get a full single player experience. Somehow GT7 has made all of that infinitely worse.
For me, online has killed gaming for the racing genre especially. Online only needs to be a class of cars and same track. It shouldn’t be detracting from the single player aspect
@@SonicBoone56I remember in GT5 the used car dealerships and back in the day using forums on GT Planet to trade cars and paints. Those were the days
@@matthewgannon722 It has killed many genres sadly. Focus on online play started around 2010, and have been gradually increased since. These days, and in the past 8 years or so, it feels like single player and campaigns are just there to check a box more than anything. Online play is where they can make more money, sell microtransaction so I think that has contributed towards developers focusing more and more on online play.
I like WW2 shooters for example, in the 2000s-2010 the market was filled with these games, almost oversaturated. Those games had multiplayer, but most of them also had complete single player campaigns to enjoy. I looked at WW2 games the past decade and almost no one even has a campaign, its just online multiplayer and its sad.
Racing games usually have some kind of single player mode even today, but it feels like its just there to tick a box. AI has also seen little improvements the past 20 years in the gaming industry, again probably because single player isn't a focus. Structure and progression systems/rewards are also terrible in modern single player campaigns/career mode/story mode.
So yeah I fully agree, focus on online and streaming/esport killed the industry for people that enjoy how games were designed before when we were younger.
Im pretty sure that there’s a generation younger than us enjoying the hell outta GT 7, Horizon 5, Unbound and would be nostalgic bias about those games when they’re older
I'm probably going to be one of those people, lol.
100%. I teach kids who are like 16-19 right now and they get nostalgic for things like Minecraft and the Wii U. I started out playing NFS 2 in the mid-90s, so I've had to deal with people who idolize Underground 2, Most Wanted and even Carbon for _at least_ 15 years, because those are the games that sent the series to the stratosphere, so they have a lot of fans.
are they good games? yeah (ok Carbon fucking sucks, and the UG games are corny). but the best is obviously Hot Pursuit 2 for PS2 and I will fucking die on this hill (jk! jk!)
and for the record I have played all the recent NFS games. Rivals is great. 2015 is charming in a funny/dumb kinda way. Payback is terrible. Heat is great, and I haven't played Unbound.
@@iansteelmatheson Remember the Guys older than us back in the day, laughing about our "nostalgia" from the 90s, whe had in the 2010s?? Same with Music. Everything.
NFSU2 was my last NFS Game. Oh wait, no. In 2022, There was a Discord Time, whre i played modded Heat with Friends, that just wanted "modern Underground". Did work for a few Hours. But i guess i stick to my Assetto Corsa.
Also, a lot of Games today are good. They are just Cashgrabs like Forza Horizon. But think of Horizon 5 in 15 Years. Will look good. Will drive fantastic. will sound great. Then, nostalgia lies are spread :D haha.
"Poorly thought out critisism" Well. Welcome to the Internet. Look at Starfield right now. People just repeating brainless phrases from other People that heard it somewhere. It is full circle now.
yeah but what people don't understand is that we live in a decline. the quality of life is not a constant through time.
depending on the quality of life in the future, the younger generation's games could be compared to eating dandelion salad to survive through a depression. Or they'll reminisce when citizens were even allowed to play games, period.
People are simply lowering their standards; they're becoming acclimatized to overpriced mediocre games with duplicitous monetization tactics, they're being desensitized to bugs as being normal, as eventually we'll get to a point where non-buggy games are extremely rare.
Calling it a nostalgia bias is covering up the true issues going on here. This is how people become accepting of mistreatment, by siding with their captors rather than the people wishing to free them.
@@zxbryc That's exactly what a nostalgic person would say. There's always a narrative about decline that every nostalgiac repeats. You see it going back thousands of years. People have been saying "things were better back then" for as long as there have been "good old days" to invoke. You can see it everywhere, in every field, every art form, in every period of history. Even the Athenians of Ancient Greece looked back rosily on the Battle of Marathon. Nobody thinks of themselves as a nostalgiac. Everybody thinks that they alone see clearly and that everybody else has lower standards than they do. It's rarely the case. Yes, there have been periods of decline. There are also periods of prosperity. It doesn't actually have any impact on how nostalgic people are. In psychology it is referred to as "rosy recollection". There's another term which I think is probably more specific and relevant, which is "declinism". The belief that an institution or society is tending towards decline.
The way I interpret the "Make gt4 again" argument is as a let's go back to what has worked in the past as a foundation for something new and better.
Any other interpretation would be questionable
Yeah, I mean it's obvious when people say that, they don't want to go back to GT4 engine sounds or the parts of GT4 that are dated. It's also pretty obvious for any serious fan of the series that the handling has improved with every entry.
Just take the core of GT4:
- a simple main menu: Arcade, GT mode and Sport online Mode
- a lengthy but meaningful and well made GT mode were you really need to drive cheap cars to progress. Enough options in the used car dealer and enough races to mix all sorts of engine layout, car categories.
@@mro9466 GT4 fans never touched any of the PS3 games because literally GT5 and GT6 addresses those.
Exactly. Anyone that says otherwise, (Roflwaffle included, not letting him off the hook with this one) needs to take a good look at GT7's GT Mode and tell us if they really wanna double down on their takes, cause I am pretty sure *NOBODY* (NOBODY GETS OUT ALIVE) can call that career mode innovative for the better. It feels tacked on like the average COD campaign that in added in newer entries just to shut up the single player-only users, but even we racing players can see a half-assed attempt when it's there.
PD didn't care. When people asked for GT4-style GT Mode they meant BUILDING OFF THAT FOUNDATION. You can take a solid foundation and add more onto it. War for the Overworld did just that, grabbing what the Dungeon Keeper playerbase liked about DK1 and 2, combining them into a single foundation, then without changing that formula they added new striking elements that were a worthwhile break from the normal gameplay. I know that example is not a racing game but it's a case of working with something that already works as a base and building innovation from it.
Also selecting youtube comments as a base for an argument is like asking the opinion of a match to a sports fan in a stadium while his team is losing, i mean, is such a waste of time and effort, of course you will hear a lot of incoherent rage indulced blabering but there is a bit of truth there, the thing is what people are really trying to say overall is what you just pointed out. I think Roflwaffle is half right but he is overreacting and projecting, 'innovation' nowadays in the gaming industry usualy comes like a wolf in a sheep's clothing, it usually means the addition of microtransactions and mechanics to make you waste time, of course people will be skeptical, even more so when the devs (or should i say the executives) are clearly not delivering the most basic or somethimes quintessential features that everyone is asking for a long time that had built the foundation to the series success because they are either out of touch or they simply just don't care, they keep selling anyway...
I believe the reason why KT Racing and Nacon felt obliged to release gameplay footage even though they were clearly not ready at all to do so was simply because of the community constantly asking them for gameplay reveal, aswell as investors needing proof that what they were investing in wasn't complete bull.
Not completely surprising, they announced the game for a 2022 release initially, pushed it back to 2023, then to 2024. At some point, showing nothing is worse than showing something disappointing.
Nacon plus KT maybe are not a familiar names in the game industry, but their transparancy shall be appreciated. 🙌🏾
@@RidwanZatmiko KT were the developers of the yearly WRC Games from the 5th 'til the current game.
TDUSC fans on social media are absolutely toxic. Every day, between the first images and the first gameplay video, posts were/are pouring out about KT apparently ''needing'' to drop images and gameplay? While the core reason of TDU2's fall off, and Atari (and Eden Games by extension) bankruptcy was rushed gameplay with bad physics, countless bugs and quick cash grabs. You would expect people would actually want a finished game this time. (also they should just be thankful that someone actually picked up this franchise, because it was not looking good 10 years ago (I still can't understand why Sony did not pick it up to compete with Forza Horizon))
Now, with social media taking an even bigger place like mentionned in the video, the only thing people's empty points, claims and criticism will do is cloud Nacon and their devs' minds about what people actually want. Why would they make the effort to innovate and expand, when they could just make a quick game for easy cash instead of risking something, especially if they feel like people will not be happy either way. I have to say that on the other hand, contrary to Forza, they do not have good critics to fall back on if they go that route, so it's actually not that simple for them.
Personally I've never been a big fan of the past racing games Kylotonn have made, btw, so it's not like I myself don't have my own reservations over the game, and can also be sometimes guilty of nostalgia-lighting future and present racing games. But it all comes down to another aspect of Roflwaffle's video; people need to be way more meaningful in their criticism, especially in an era where almost directly addressing yourself to game devs is so easy.
sory 4 text wall lolxd
nah that game looked like it was a scam from the ground up, the whole gameplay showcase is so bad it makes me convinced the whole thing has to be some kind of money laundering front now that these guys we're apparently on the strike
We're currently witnessing a fighting game renaissance. Hopefully the racing genre sees a renaissance of its own in the near future. But the racing game community needs to wake the hell up first.
You say that, but the fighting game community is one of the most toxic out there. The community clearly isn't what stops a renaissance from happening.
True the entire racing game community needs to wake up
@@Pjb93 You are not part of the fgc lmao
Like they ever will...too many proud and prideful morons out there that don't care about others...
there's not a renaissance going on in fighting games, what happened was that capcom just released a solid fighting game, sf6 is what sf5 should have been, there was no innovation or reinvention of the wheel
When people say "classic Need for Speed" I don't think of Underground or Most Wanted, I think of Road and Track Presents: The Need for Speed, lol!
That’s what NFS fans think as well.
For NFS fans it’s:
Classic NFS = Road & Track Presents - Hot Pursuit 2
Golden Era = Underground 1 - The Run / NFS World
Brake to Drift/Modern = Hot Pursuit 2010 - Unbound
@@smashkiller64 *overrated
It's an interesting point you made about a snapshot in time. I think a big part why older racing games can't be replicated is that their atmosphere (the music, the UI, the graphical style) were emblematic of, and could only exist, in that time period. Regarding Gran Turismo 4, though it is my favourite video game of all time, I'll happily agree it's not a flawless masterpiece - there are many things wrong with it, but the main thing I think it did better than pretty much any other racing game before or since was providing you options for your own vehicular narrative. The game gives you so many possible paths to reach the GT World Championship, and there's a reason why a far greater number of these recent GT challenge run videos have been on GT4 as opposed to GT3. Every playthrough is genuinely different to one another in the car trajectories you take throughout the game, and it makes GT4 far more replayable to me than GT3's more rigid structure (not to mention the early repetition of tracks - the lack of content from its PS2 launch-title status does show through a fair amount).
Games like gta vice prove you wrong, recreating a snapshot in time is easy and plenty of games do it
I fundamentally disagree with your thesis there. Not that GT4 isn't great or anything but more the importance of the snapshot in time. The release date of a game may influence its aesthetic choices for music, UI and graphical style but the gameplay you praised GT4 for isn't exclusive to that time. GT5-7 could also have copy pasted or done GT4's gameplay as gameplay isn't as restrictive by aesthetics of a time.
Like, the opposite is also the case. Games like GTA Vice City replicate even older settings with modern gameplay.
GT3 at least had one of the best Arcade Modes of the series, if not the best, and it offered more than just one Formula GT car-a small detail, but one that at least lent itself to some thought about car selection, with me being partial to the more powerful V6 turbos. Not having endurance races longer than 3 hours is a point in GT3's favour, too, as its streamlined presentation (at least to me) and inclusion of iconic courses from the first two games yet to return to the series.
I still agree with you on GT4. I picked up GT3 and GT4 at roughly the same time and had much more fun in GT4 with its greater diversity of cars, courses, and events early on. GT4 is the peak of the series, but the three mainline games before it each did something better that made them worth revisiting. The developers at Polyphony Digital would be wise to look at what made those four games so good and bring those features and modern improvements either to GT7 or a new (preferably offline except for multiplayer and DLC) GT game.
@@FraserSourisGTA Liberty City Stories also copied all gameplay cabinets from GT3.
@@reillywalker195lucky that arcade modes in GT2 to 5 are still miles above Custom Races in GT7 and online only career mode in Forza Motorsport 8.
"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." - Henry Ford
"People don't know what they want until you show it to them." - Steve Jobs
"I have poor bladder control." - Me
“Cock and ball torture” - Sun Tzu
"pass me another beer mayne" - me
“Trust me with your data” - Mark Zuccerberg
"Fear is the path to the dark side" - Peppa Pig
One interesting part about nostalgia is that it differs from community to community. For example, in the States, the 2012 Most Wanted is generally criticized as a bad NFS game because it lacked everything that NFS was built up on, the modifications and the progression system. There were no substantial modifications to the vehicles in game and the progression system is just weird and seemed a bit too easy for players. However. this is because American audiences have been used to older NFS games like underground or the previous Most Wanted title. In China, where I used to live, sees this issue from the completely other side. Most people here, although believing that the original Most Wanted was indeed a better game, percieve the 2012 game as a classic, despite its many flaws. Because for many Chinese people, around 2010 was when they started to being able to afford a decent setup to play games on and the spare money to buy a racing game, so the 2012 entry was one of the only racing games that were available right out the get go. We were just used to playing online flash games when this came out, so it was a big deal. I have also played both Most Wanted games, and it is safe to say that the original Most Wanted is a better game and yes, to some extent, the 2012 entry kind of butchered the title, but since I also am that part of the community where the 2012 game was one of the first racing games along with dirt3, the 2012 Most Wanted Still holds a special place in my heart despite it not being the most ideal game. It doesn't really matter what everyone else says, because it's hard to admit, but I kind of enjoy that game.
Didn't China get an entire box set of the old NFS games up to Carbon or something?
Such an interesting perspective never really thought about how other countries have different access and therefore a different opinion on these games
Similar perspective, My first console racer was Hot Pursuit 2010, and I wondered how the game would be with a massive open world and BOOM, Most wanted 2012 came out, and to me it seemed like a direct improvement in terms of the title. I later played the original most wanted, but I still like both
The different perspective/opinion thing is kinda true over here in the Gulf States as well, especially in the 5th-6th gen era of gaming.
Local gaming community opinions about old racing games and their favourites are similar but also somewhat difference. You aren't going to see that many khaleejis mention the Burnout series at all but you will see lots of them talk about Midnight Club 3 Remix and how it was the sh*t (in a good way).
В России тоже не очень любят Most Wanted 2012. Основная претензия у нас - заголовок. Назвали бы её как-то иначе, а не Most Wanted - многих проблем удалось бы избежать, ведь сама по себе игра вышла неплохая - с хорошей графикой, приемлемой физикой, неплохим саундтреком. Но при этом без вменяемого сюжета, без тюнинга и с унылыми погонями от полицейских - без всех тех аспектов, которые сделали оригинальный Most Wanted тем, чем он стал.
I don't think the "nostalgia bias" is a major factor in why people don't like the new games when you have people like DustinEden and Colorshed playing the old games for the first time and also liking them more than the current titles. Dustin has stopped playing newer titles altogether because the old ones are just more thought out and complete.
17:05 "Man, there is so much potential that could be improved in meaningful ways with new ideas", but that's exactly the issue today. Big videogames corporations have lost any interest into making actually new ideas that would make the game more fun (like an engaging career) and went focusing entirely on the technical aspects of the game (graphics, big numbers, presentation) to push people to purchase their products, and possibly keep making them spend more money soon after.
I agree with you that people only complaining about GT7's microtransactions is redundant and not helping considering the other big flaws and bizzarre design choices they went through, but we have to consider that many of these design choices are most likely put in place to maximise people's engagement while preventing them to enjoy their gameplay "just enough" to start feeling the grind to be obnoxious, so that they will resort to further purchases instead of actually playing the game. Big studios nowadays hire psychologists to analyze the best balance between fun and frustration to find the best combination of being an engaging game but never giving enough for you to not feel the need for solutions to artificially accelerate progression. Solution which they happily sell to you.
I dropped GT7 exactly because I realized I had the same feeling from other games with similar "Loot-focused" features. That constant feeling that it's not "the driving" the main goal gameplay, it's the collection of rewards at all costs. Which bring sense on why the career constantly feels so unsatisfying, as you start feeling bored at having to make that same race again and again to be able to afford yet another car that you won't be able to use anywhere other than custom races.
MTX are not the only issue about GT7, but many (not all, must underline) issues in that game are directly related to their need to justify your further purchases after you bought the game.
Or to force you to change your opinion like many francois like to do these days.
This isn’t just a ‘game’ thing… it’s a human’ thing. The same can be said for music.
This vid is *exactly* what needs to be kept in mind when critiquing art (games, music, etc)…
TLDR: context (in the most inclusive sense of the word) is ‘key’.
SOOO much more to say on this, and I may expand on this someday, but for now… I’ll spare everyone from what’s already been said.
Great vid. Cheers, all!
\m/, 😅 ,\m/
Turns out the critics of FM8's upgrade system were right lol
No
@@gamingglatiator69 Yes
My biggest problem with Unbound is the gameplay, i can't do a turn without my car drifting because I braked. And when I'm in high speed, some cars lose all the rear stabilty for nothing, feels so random. If the handiling was better I would play more.
You can turn off the gas/brake to drift, tune your car to a grip build and set the downforce to its highest in the Handling Settings of your car.
Some cars benefit better with Grip handling.
That’s weird because my Grip builds (with the help of some youtube videos) for Eclipse and Skyline work 10x better compared to previous entries and you can make full turns without under steer or sliding.
@@iluvmyoosikIt does work. The exige is a light and nimble car which is why it still drifts even with a all grip setup. The trick to using that car is very small analog inputs dont just jerk the stick left or right. You cannot drive the exige like ANY other car. I have tried both build setups for that car and once you have it mastered its a beast. I like the car because its fast but you have to actually know how to use it to benefit from it. That being said all my cars on now setup with a more in between grip and drift setup because the way nos works in unbound thats the best way to take advantage of both
When the game came out, I tried it out on EA Play. What put me off more than anything else was the handling. And before anyone says anything, I'm not a sim racer and for me it doesn't necessarily have to handle like Forza Horizon. I just didn't feel the cars in Unbound at all.
Good handling is impossible in frostbite
The NFS community is on some some bullshit sometimes. You're kinda right about how annoying they've been about certain things.
Don't get involved there at all. There are some people in the community that is overall can respect your own thoughts and feeling to many NFS games but holy shit I encounter some of the most shittiest people online there because they can't even handle a simple and fair opinion to there favorite NFS game without foaming up the mouth and lash out on you. The furry community is better than that shit despite it's many problems I have with it. Not even joking about this.
This is slightly unrelated but I watched one of those videos on "Unbound Soundtrack vs Old NFS soundtrack" and TH-cam was like "Yo, here's six other Unbound vs Old NFS Soundtrack videos". I think it says more about the NFS community (or at least the ones making videos) than the YT algorithm...
@@gronccautomotive2203Unbound's soundtrack totally deserves to be bullied though. I'd rather listen to Heat's soundtrack and I cannot stand Heat's soundtrsck. Does tell me a lot of NFS fans on TH-cam are clout goblins though.
@@Calvin_Coolage imo NFS Heat soundtrack isn't that bad tbh some songs are pretty good
@@samurairavo There's definitely some good stuff in it, mostly the electronic and pop stuff imo.
I've found myself shouting "YES THANK YOU" multiple times during the video. Although I didn't necessarily agree with every point, I cannot agree more on the communities' complete lack of self-awareness. How can you want games to be "like in the old days", but also be entirely contempt with modern titles just adding cars and nothing else? Or how people complained when NFS Heat didn't get any updates, and now that Unbound does get them (pretty significant ones in fact) all of a sudden people want them to stop because they deem the game 'dead'.
Maybe the reason racing games haven't improved much compared to other genres is because we are giving developers more mixed signals than a drunk and angry ex girlfriend.
Dustin. you're also the same guy who keep saying "YES!" on "Why racing games suck" by Rayvecick.
why your opinion is diffrent right now?
I feel like the reason why so many people focus on ‘add le cool new car plz’ is more often than not because they have deeper frustrations about the game which they cannot really put into words effectively or even truly grasp. And so they put these feelings down to a lack of certain cars that they desire or songs they don’t like being present in the game. It’s because they’re things easy to identify and thus something of a substitute for the lack of comprehension of one’s own feelings and thoughts. Plus, the fact that nostalgia is a terribly addictive drug which skews people’s expectations never plays out well
Wait a second, Dustin. Weren't you one of the main racing game youtubers who kept complaining about new racing games, including recent NFS games?
What changed your mind, or is it something else, because you didn't have this mindset from what seemed liked a year ago?
I'm a bit baffled by these responses. My comment on Raycevick's channel mainly agreed on the lack of creativity in many (not all) modern racing games. Something Roflwaffle directly acknowledges in the video. Other than that, the comment I posted here has pretty much nothing to do with my other one, as I'm commenting on the community here. It's my opinion on an entirely different topic.
What gave you the idea I kept complaining about modern racing games? On my 2nd channel I have directly stated that I liked how the new TDU looked like, I spent a whole 9 minutes listing off positives in my The Crew Motorfest Beta review and even in my "I'm Done With NFS Unbound" video I called the game fine. During my livestreams I've also mentioned numerous times that I want to give the new Forza a fair shot because it seems to have new ideas.
These replies kind of reflect the issue that Roflwaffle discusses in the video. It's either "new game bad, old game good" or "new game good, old game bad". Somehow I can't praise NFS Unbound's updates because I've said modern racing games lack creativity. It makes no sense.
The reality of the situation is that these issues are really complex and I want to have a nuanced take on new and old racing games. This means that I can both agree with the poor state of many modern games, while also criticizing the pedestal we hold these old games too. But even then, this doesn't have to apply to all games. For example, I think both GT4 and FM4 deserve the praise they get online, but at the same time I really enjoyed modern releases such as F1 2023, WRC Generation or even Project Cars 3. Yes, I'm one of those weirdos.
@@tilsgeeIt's called he's a liar and just saying something different here because he know he was being spoken indirectly in the video so he trying to act cute and innocent here like he didn't say anything different in Rayverrick Racing Games Suck Today video 😂
Well since there are not a lot of huge game developers left, (cancellation of Blackbox for ex.) the lack of innovation and readiness of taking risks to develop something unique, let racing games become blend and left out to be mass appealing for making profit.
There are tons of factors leading to this.
I think the greatest problem is that the early eras (the really first Need for Speeds) were mostly inspired by car magazines like Road and Track, or Midnight club 3 with the ''DUB'' magazine. Then came the first fast and furious movies where illegal street racing and tuning becomes like a new genre entirely. But since the hype wears off and these things become a relic of a complete different time.
I think this is the main reason why older titles often have these kind of ''nostalgia bias''
Midnight Club was inspired by the IRL Mid Night Club, a Japanese street racing organization. Also the manga Wangan Midnight, which was also based on Mid Night Club and the general Wangan racing scene. That's what the Japanese characters in the game logo actually stand for (Wangan).
Option, Best Motoring, Hot Version would be the mags that influenced MC. DUB Magazine was a later collaboration
GT4 featured B-Spec and 24-hour races. While B-Spec was enjoyable, the 24-hour races were truly exhilarating. Completing them solo using B-Spec felt like a major accomplishment and was a groundbreaking innovation in the racing genre. It's worth considering using Sophy AI to develop a new and potentially more captivating version of B-Spec
You are so right,i would pay extra for it.
I played alot with B-Spec testing the Ai
They were neat, but personally 3-6 hours is the sweet spot for an endurance race in a game. I don't feel like having to quit and come back later. You can't do that in real life, plus it kinda destroys what makes endurance races special to begin with. Not to mention real drivers in 24 hour events share the car with two others and only drive around 6 to 9 hours total each. So 6 hours virtually can actually feel legit.
I agree 3 hours is the sweet spot. My roommates and I used to run 2-3 hour stints on the 24-hour races and build a decent gap. Once the gap was established we would all take a break and let B-spec take over. Waking up the following day to see how the AI had done overnight was always a thrill, and we would be excited to get back in the car to finish the race. Obviously a fair amount of nostalgia bias in these memories. I think a new iteration of 24-hour races using modern technologies like PSVR2 and Sophy would make for a very immersive experience in driving, racecraft, and resource management.
To me it was only depressing because the rewards were certainly not worth such time investment and it would be very difficult to make that possible. Maybe if it was a live service online game where you could use the Fgt in endless progression it could be good, yet not with a limited event roster.
Nostalgia is given a much bigger credit for impact than it has in reality. Not long ago, I went on a Rewatch of cartoons I watched as a kid, that I had massive amounts of Highly positive nostalgia for.
For all the amazing nostalgic memories I had, my actual present day viewing experience was drastically different. Some shows were even better than my nostalgia led me to believe, others went from being an extremely positive nostalgic memory, to an abysmal viewing experience in present day. I realized, it doesnt matter if you are nostalgic for something. If it's actually bad, your present day experience will be bad, regardless of how fond memories you had of them, and if its actually good, it can end up being a better experience than your past memories led you to believe. Your nostalgia will affect the way you Think about and look back on something in your memories, not the actual re-experience itself.
Now, as someone who played all the main NFS games and all 7 Gran Turismo games, I can attest to that no, GT4 isn't overrated, nor is it nostalgia bias. It's the best Racing game I've ever played, nor was it my first one. If the game wasnt as good as it was in their memory, they would've been able to tell that on a present day replay of it, they would have realized "Oh, it has alot more flaws than my nostalgia led me to remember, I guess it isnt as good as I remember". Truth is, it is everything people say it is. Every game in a franchise is bound to have people loving it like nothing else, and others having nothing but complaints, but the focus shouldnt be put on the fact that these 2 sides exists, but what each side Actually says. The slightly negative reception for GT4 when it came out weren't the best of logically thought out critiques, they were mostly Highly Biased opinionated nitpicks on things that aren't that important. GT4 is a marvel, considering it's a ps2 game.
GT4 does indeed lack some things, but the things it lacks, arent *nearly* as important as the things it isnt lacking. It is first and foremost, a racing sim.
The actual feel of the driving, the progression system, the UI, the quantity selection of cars, the difficulty, the tuning of cars and graphics. It's phenomenal.
Agreed. I find those who wield the "Nostaliga Bias" argument as some sort of catch-all excuse for why someone doesn't like something, are always themselves blind to some aspect of what they're talking about because ironically enough, while adults are uniquely capable of having nostalgia for something, they are also unique in that they also have the benefit of hindsight.
The younger generation meanwhile, only has formative experiences guiding their judgment, and it's why so many companies cynically target children and teens with their get-rich-quick schemes.
Which isn't to say nostalgia doesn't blind some people, but anyone who looks at predatory business plans like Micro-transactions and Always Online, and then dismisses the very real concerns about these things out of hand with nothing more than some backhanded allusion to "nostalgia bias" is only blinding themselves to much larger problems.
The first four were some of my Favs,as they felt like they kept getting better and better and better!! All gold in every single game up to Gran Turismo sport because I do not have a PS five and I’m not gonna buy Gran Turismo seven for my PS4.. specially since I don’t have my thousand dollar racing wheel no more..
But I just wanna add that Gran Turismo five at the end and really from about 2014 onwards which I guess was “the end” kind of, way more of an amazing racing game. Then a lot of people gave it credit for? Sure, it had its problems- but the cars, the amount of tracks, the graphics, the tuning, the fact that you had drifting that was very realistic, in terms of how it looked, and how it felt, just like the racing, it was simply an amazing game that even I at first, when I first got Gran Turismo five in 2010 was a bit disappointed..
I continued to play it, and after I got Internet, the game, continued to get better and better and better and in 2014 I finally unlocked the platinum trophy to it which takes skill-
My favorite part of the Gran Turismo and the way they were structured was always the fact that they were like the dark souls of racing games where certain tests and trials were extremely difficult, but being as the physics engine is so dialed in, it gave you what you needed to work with, and if you had the skill, you could get gold! Not to mention the countless amount of races I put in with people all across the world, admittedly, a lot of those races were “Looking” for races with people that actually had skill so that I could get in a race that was clean and strategic and not a bunch of non-racers trying to edge you out and brake-check you and slam you off the track?!?!
Anyways, sorry for my tangent rant, but I just wanted to add the Gran Turismo five is my favorite of all time even though I have a lot of nostalgia for the first two being as I was 14 when the first one came out and I was 15 1/2 when the second one finally came out that Christmas!! I say that the fifth one is my favorite because out of all of them it is the one I played the most and it is also the one where I had two PlayStation threes at the time hooked up with two HDTVs and two force feedback racing wheels in the same room where one of my buddies could come over and we could both get in online lobbies And race together with people all over the world!!
I really liked the way Gran Turismo 5 Felt, and looked? The drifting in it, the huge cloud billowing out behind the car, it was just all so mesmerizing!
I played the hell out of GT4 also, don’t get me wrong it’s just I played it by myself and after I beat it, that was that ..
GT5 was basically the continuation of GT4, except finally, with online functionality, multiplayer, daily events, as well as time trials to race for the best lap at every track in the game against every Gran Turismo player in the world!? it was amazing and it was still online today, I would still play that game!!
I would still be playing GT4 also! In fact, I wish they would just remaster and re-release all of them… could you imagine trophies for all the Gran Turismo games up to?
objectively correct comment stay based
I would say a performance damage model (visuals not so much) is important though especially for endurance races.
The reason why the NFS fanbase is much more toxic than the rest is because of the way it grew. GT and Forza slowly built up fanbases over several releases, while NFS was relatively niche, before it absolutely exploded globally in a span of just 2 years and then never topped that level of hype again.
Kind of like what happened to top gear. The rise to fame was so massive that one version of it became the ONE DEFINITIVE version in the heads of millions of people. Nothing else will be accepted afterwards
i think its because it appealed to the dudebros alot more than other games
@eyeamstrongest Nah, nfs games are just easy to have a fun time without getting too serious about it
@@watersnortmoment3734 bruh have u seen a single cinematic from a black box era game lmfao
Ну не сказал бы, что NFS была нишевой. Я начал знакомство с серией с самой первой части на платформе 3DO, знакомился со второй частью на пк. Далее были Hot Pursuit, High Stakes и Porsche Unleashed на PlayStation 1. Следом я познакомился с версиями High Stakes и Porsche на пк. На пк продолжил знакомство с серией с играми Hot Pursuit 2, Underground и Underground II, Most Wanted и Carbon. Carbon - последняя игра в серии, до которой я не пропускал ни одного релиза, знакомясь с версиями на различных платформах. После Carbon я пробовал лишь The Run, Shift и Most Wanted 2012. При этом Carbon - это уже 10 игра в серии. К этому моменту у NFS была уже внушительная фанбаза, привыкшая к экспериментам в каждой новой части. Основная претензия сообщества к Carbon, кстати, в том и заключалась, что Carbon - это ленивый рескин Most Wanted, не приносивший во франшизу ничего радикально нового.
В это время GT и Forza полировали одни и те же идеи, перенося их в новые части практически без изменений. Чем отличается та же Gran Turismo 7 от оригинальной Gran Turismo? Графикой, более обширным парком машин, фоторежимом и онлайном - теми фичами, которые просто не могли существовать на более ранних поколениях консолей в силу их технических ограничений. В то же время в серии NFS за первые 9 частей ни одна игра не была похожей на предыдущую. NFS изобретала жанр гонки, подходя к нему каждый раз с новой стороны.
your analogy is off. the NAME can be the same, but if the soul isnt there, then it _isnt_ the same. Top Gear, for example, wasnt Top Gear after the trio left...it was just another show about cars _named_ Top Gear. the actual SOUL of Top Gear now resides in a body called The Grand Tour.
its the same for video-games. the names of our favorite franchises have stayed the same, but the SOUL, that direction and purpose, is nowhere to be found.
As somebody that works in the industry and sees both the player and development side of them every day, this is an excellent video that eloquently points out many things that aren’t really discussed online.
Player feedback is important (when respectful, detailed and constructive, like most of the videos I’ve seen from you), but at the same time games need to evolve beyond simply being “more cars, tracks and nicer graphics”. Developers aren’t always going to hit the right mark with innovations, but I would rather them try and fail than stick with what’s been done before with no room to improve.
This is why, despite playing Gran Turismo for 25 years, GT Sport was my favourite. There was a clear vision and for what Polyphony was trying to do with that game on an emotional and psychological level, it did a good job. It was a game that truly represented why I got into racing in the first place and why motorsport is important to so many people. It didn’t connect with the mass-market and the classic Gran Turismo fans, but it tried something new and I applaud them for giving it ago.
Also, your closing thoughts are exactly how many people within studios (not just racing, gaming in general) feel about the level of discourse online. There is amazing feedback out there, but it’s drowned out by stuff that’s simply exhausting to read through.
When people calmly explain why they like or dislike something, give reasons for why they feel that way, and suggest alternatives to explore in the future, developers do take those kinds of comments seriously and sometimes those discussions impact the direction of future updates and games. I played a pretty heavy hand in DiRT Rally 2.0’s post-launch discussions, and some of the good feedback that got fed back into the dev team not only affected later patches, but also generated ideas for future games.
Swearing or screaming into the void will never get this response, and ultimately encourage studios to ignore comments entirely, thus ensuring the “good feedback” never gets heard.
tldr: Feedback is welcome, so long as everybody is nice when giving it 🙂
Great points PJ, and thank you for giving your insight on Dirt Rally 2.0!
Great points (GT Sport made sense as a multiplayer game but GT fans are singleplayer usually so.... waiting for one was awkward. XD It was a fair game not into the online only (DRM sigh. Not into server focus there in singleplayer or side modes multiplayer I understand but just no into it for singleplayer. The save file editing/cheating sure I get it but still it's not all players.
Not a fan that GT PSP started this with moving memory cards oh different PSP because it's broken or upgraded to another model or something no problem oh delete save file hmm that's unfortunate thanks Sony/Polyphony on encryption and save restrictions) approach and while many are offline available it is still annoying. What was offered was good in a way though.
I'm fine with some ideas others it depends. I get DRM for sales/in general the way the game is intended/no altering EULA but still.
But I mean like COD BO4 or Battlefront 2015 or Titanfall 1's unique multiplayer campaign (Titanfall 2 's is excellent so is Bright Memory Infinite too) hmmmm, then again I thought the multiplayer in No Man's Sky even if didn't work well I think it was unique then they changed it to a typical one but oh well and I'm not a multiplayer person I'm a singleplayer one)
Do you see the niche audience looks to other games? (in racing game discussions or the few TH-camrs that do cover old games besides the games you work on) for ideas or their own ideas (for your games by players besides Devs themselves and I guess how many Devs ideas get shut down is a fair question to ask and why the major features end up in the game.
Do executives or team leaders get in the way of some? Just asking to see why we have game end up the way they do.
If you can answer the question that is and not break something you can't say that's totally fine).
I don't know enough about the dirt rally community so if they're happy good for them. :)
I appreciate Dirt Rally 1, I haven't played it much though. Got too many games to play old and new. Not sure if it's my thing but it's fine from what I played.
Many times I assume not and more the familiar/nostalgia and basic good and bad comments right? In some areas but for your games maybe it's fine as the praise of Dirt Rally and that community is happy besides other communities status?
I don't blame Devs but I mean I don't think a bunch of Crystal Dynamics surveys would help either let alone polls.
Still whatever Devs can do for info on players or players offer as videos to Devs helps at least.
I said for legacy of Kain keep it the same but don't be afraid to have new ideas. It's base I assume was fine for the time and maybe still is.
I don't want skill trees (some modern makes sense but I think some things with quality of life is nicer to have then we have to dramatically change something) !but I do other ideas. Whether they came across I don't know. I never played a single legacy of Kain game so my points were interestingly different.
With racing I can say more as I research failed ones all the time, my favourite puzzle games are on PSP because I researched them one day months ago.
I come up with random ideas from research or other systems.
I have literally for my ideal hack n slash of more element say water/fire instead of particles it's more counter involving I think is what I was going for. Even in the environment way of say earth and more not just simple object/projectiles.
Yet the genre has issues like racing for ideas. Or I find them kind of flat.
Valkyrie Elysium while for JRPG fans probably isn't what they wanted I like what it did to stun enemies and offer a good mix there of elements used not what I suggested but still a good addition to hack n slashes.
I hope Atlas Fallen is like Darksiders 2 not because oh nostalgia I have no nostalgia for it I got it the Definitive edition I just thought it had a good hub based and slight RPG angle I think worked and we never saw anyone take off with it then the God of war 2018/Ryse son of Rome or Hellbade approach or DMC5/Bayonetta 3 (Astral Chain did it better so taking it to Bayonetta 3 didn't feel right to me and I played Astral Chain after Bayonetta 3 so a reverse and oh that's why this feature exists surprise).
If it's close enough to make the environment even if sand in Atlas Fallen but the environment to navigate FUN and using items fun then I'm happy. I mean Zelda has items and it makes the linear and open worlds fun I only played Breath of the Wild for the shrines after all. Love a good puzzle and item use case.
I'm always open to ideas it's just if we see them as the familiar is fine but the current familiar in some.egames I move away from/don't buy for that reason if I didn't like the feature and it's widespread it limits my game choices doesn't it then. :(
If I don't like a game series well more releases doesn't help if their DNA is what it is of elements I'm not into in so no voting with my wallet helps if the wallets of other players is larger of what gets released. XD
I do the studios I can but it doesn't help much.
I remember hearing in one of the Forza streams that at one point, the developers (Turn 10/Playground Games) pretty much dreaded reading the forums since there was so much negativity, and I just think that's an awful reality. There can be some valid and well-constructed arguments, criticisms, and suggestions, but it's drowned out by a lot of people either that are knee-jerking or people that are unwilling to give new ideas a chance
@@gronccautomotive2203 I think you can see this with the forums. The official Forza Forums have a few good people drowned out by demanding negativity, whereas the Forza threads on GTPlanet are much calmer and more constructive.
@@rakeroll5413 Best rally game ever made (for now 😉)
"I think GT4 is overrated."
*Uses the music.*
The racing game community wants originality but then complain when a game try something different
When was the last time a non indie racing game tried something new? Even unbound had nothing original in it
@@GG_1318 Unbound literally had its visual aesthetic, but dumb fucks threw hissy fits about it “being anime” and now we will just get the same “hyper realistic” racers now
always the case
@@GG_1318Forza Motorsport XP Mechanic, Forza Horizon Non-Linear Campaign, NFS Unbound‘s Visual Style, NFS Unbound Gradual Heat System, NFS Unbound‘s Burst NOS, do i need to continue?
@@TheCapitalWanderer the xp mechanic is not new all the motorsports have it, neither is the non linear campign plenty of games did that or unbounds art style which is weak because they didnt go all the way or the gradual heat which other NFS games have had. The burst nos is from burnout
they added a fucking ambulance in gt7 and a five year old gt3 car the game is saved 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
GOTY🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🥹🥹🫡
racing games its biggest problem is the audience, devs end up *so* confused as to what people want. I think the only way the genre can actually grow is by having people who actually worked on these games just make what they envisioned
yep
"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses"
- Henry Ford
People want games to become better, but they also hate change. Basically, they want re-released games with better graphics.
That’s what the dev like PD and EA and others did. Man, conmunty are bunch of idiots and hyocrites.
yeah
I think a big reason people have nostalgia for older racing games is how none of them can be put on modern systems due to licensing issues that make hell look like Heaven. Without having them readily available… people can’t play them on the newest PlayStation / Xbox / Switch or Steam, which makes people angsty. I really wish all this legal stuff was not such a roadblock.
Emulators on PC.
I'm almost done playing through GT4. Aged like fine wine.
@@mro9466not legal and also pretty difficult to pull off
PC gaming isn't the end all be all
@@hihellothere9569nah you just download the emulator and configure the graphic setting, you can use PS3 to play ps1, ps2, and psp games, although i agree that the ps5 should be able to play old physical ps games (they can't even play music discs), even the psp can play ps1 games
@@mro9466 Developers can just simply ditch licensed cars altogether and make fictional oned like in Burnout.
@@hihellothere9569 The PS2 Emulator does require some beef to your PC, but getting it to work is honestly really simple if your rig is up for the task (Even PS3 games aren't too much of a fuss if your machine has the beef, for the most part). As for legality if you own a legit copy it is entirely legal but if there is no legal method of acquiring the game the grey areas are enough that even with the absolutely ZERO percent chance anything legal will come from it you have the legal wiggle room. That said though even a potato PC and actually a majority of modern smart phones can do PS1 era games so GT1/2 are actually rather readily available.
PC Gaming is in fact the end all be all. Give it a few years and PS4/PS5 emulation will be feasible just like PS2/3 Emulation has become assuming all the console exclusives aren't just straight ported to PC like a very large chunk of them have been. Even better is that mods for PS1/PS2 games are being made, and GT4 has seen quite a few already.
When people say GT7 should have been "like GT4", maybe they're pointing out that even shamelessly rehashing previous ideas would be better than what they've got.
Just look at how people rated it, it's worse than GT Sport
GT5 and GT6 were quite blatant rehashes but somehow GT4 fanboys never acknowledge them or blindly hate them.
@@SonicBoone56 because even if they are rehash it's working not an utter disgrace sometiems you jsut need something worknig doesn't amtter if it's not unique don't forget a glass axe is unique and absolutely useless.....
@@SonicBoone56 GT5 has an annoying XP system and I have no idea about GT6
One of the pieces of gamedev advice I heard from multiple different people was,
"Whenever someone says 'I don't like this aspect of your game, do [...] instead', throw everything after the first comma to the trash, because people don't know what they really want, they only know they aren't satisfied"
I just want the golden age driving feeling. EA cannot give us that
@@pocketanime The solution to that: bring back the Renderware Engine!
One thing that keeps me going and has helped me mature a bit is the fact that most of the braindead comments are not made by people who actually mean it, they're just "bait".
With the years i learned more and more to distinguish them from stuff actually worth engaging with, and knowing that there's people out there with absolutely NOTHING better to do with their worthless lives than just fan the flames of the endless gaming discourse because it makes them happy to see numbers go up gives me life, because no matter how stupid i may sound, i'll never, ever be as pathetic as them.
Exactly the reason I stay away from the racing game community in general because holy shit some people will explode on you for having the simplest and fairest opinion for over a fucking video game that only adds in entertainment value and nothing else.
I tried criticizing NFS: MW2005 on TH-cam some months ago (I know, it's an horrible place for fairly criticize video games in general) that to me I think the game is overall boring, Ai is incompetent to basically hacking and just grindy for no reason at all. I said I still enjoyed playing the game but I don't like it and don't want to play it anymore. And I got 2 people saying "You're life is fucked up so you can't have an opinion about Most Wanted." and "Agree to disagree." with petty ass jabs so I did the same thing back to them and they got even more angrier, I just blocked them and just did my own things after that.
The level of maturity is always going to be 7 - 14 years old with mentality and most people who is on the NFS community online are at least 16 years old and older give or take. This heard mentality in general needs to get wiped out from this earth entirely because acting like an asshole to someone who don't like what you like BUT still respects your reason why you enjoy something will get you nowhere at all. I once acted like this when I WAS 12 years old and turning 24 years old next month, why should I be worried about someone who enjoys playing NFS Unbound? NFS The Run? Even NFS Undercover?! I got shit to worried more in life over a fucking video game that someone either likes or don't like it. Cursing at someone because they talked shit about your favorite game or a certain topic you enjoy? Fuck em. There is other people out there who can enjoy what you like on this planet so why bother with one person who doesn't like something you like? As long that person is not saying anything offensive or threating to harm/kill people then why the fuck should you and I care about a certain person opinion that changes nothing at all in life? If I like something, I play it more. If I don't like something ill stop doing it and move on to what I like before. Amazing concept I know!
Agree.
@@haaxxx9 NSFW fans are cancer. No different than sports fans.
@@haaxxx9 Fanboys have always existed sadly. They feel so strongly towards a product that they essentially identifies themselves with it. When I was young, Apple fans were exactly like this. Any criticism towards Apple and their products was an insult to them as much as it was criticism to Apple. It is absurd but some people act like that, but as you said it is usually younger people. Once you get older you start to realize how pointless it is to act that way.
@@Skumtomten1 i'm 20 i see how pointless this hate train is
You're right to a good point. I just started replaying a lot of the older racing games like GT4 and FM3/4 and I do find myself enjoying them more but I understand why I do. For me, its the feeling of not just taking "a" car to a race, but taking "your" car to the race. You touched a lot on this in the FM reboot section when you talked about instant gratification. I have played some of the newer racing games (im more forza leaning than GT) and the way you are just given cars and money than just let loose bores me. You can go into any Fh5 lobby and all you'll find is 1600hp AWD swapped boxes running around. The new system in the upcoming reboot has potential to be a game changer but like you said, its going to come against heavy backlash because for the past decade now, its been this give, give, give gameplay style. We still do not know much about it and while there are some valid concerns about it, I can still look around and find people complaining about this new system like it has already stolen their toothbrushes and poured water on their socks.
Agree. Me too a big fan of older games.
People simply don’t see the instant rewards as a problem. Simple as that.
Damn right. I want to earn cars again. I want shitty slow cars to have a purpose. Expensive or desirable cars should be given based on sheer luck, grinding, or winning a difficult event. If you want shit given to you, then spend some real life money. But don't force the rest of us to have shiny new cars thrown at us every two seconds.
The NFS community is blinded by nostalgia and keep asking for "hurr durr,MoSt wAntEd remake"
Meanwhile... High Stakes, Hot Pursuit 2 and the original ROAD & TRACK NFS is now felt like jokes because of the MW 2005 biases...
The only old thing I want back in my new NFS game is the Carrera GT. I don't care if it's not the best, I just want it and I'm happy.
Unbound doesn't have the Carrera GT. That doesn't make it a bad game since I can just use the 918 Spyder or the 911 instead.
@@Shy_AbiWell yeah but you want a CGT and the 911/918 are not that so what are you saying man 🤣
People said that about the original Metal Gear games too, I recall. I do agree that the racing genre has a lot of problems, but I think many gamers these days will simply never be satisfied because they don't want a good new game, they just want to come back to what they had when they were children. They project their lost happiness onto older games.
yeah
As an almost 40 year old I see this happening in many things regarding nostalgia (x thing was better in the past, just make x over and over). The problem is that most people relate to what they got them hooked when they were growing up and won't move from there. I myself have a big bias for those 90's games that impacted me the most as I was going through childhood and puberty and absolutely love them but that doesn't mean anything; just those games have a big impact in who I am. In the grand scheme of things that's irrelevant, and that's what imo most people is uncapable of understanding, regardless what game was that one that impacted their inner selves growing up.
Move toward what ? Just look at every major game or movie franchise: it's always a downgrade.
It's not like we have better games or movies to enjoy.
Falcon 4.0 from 1998 had a dynamic campaign. DCS World has payware scripted campaigns that break everytime a new update is pushed.
WE ARE GOING BACKWARD
@@mro9466 I am not saying that every new game of a franchise or genre is better than the last. Just saying that, no matter what, your experience with a new game in a given franchise or genre is always gonna be influenced by what your experience was growing up.
Example: Is Grand Prix 2 one of the best F1 games of all time? Yes, yes it is.
Is any modern sim (AMS2, rFactor 2, F1 23, etc) a better game by almost any measurable metric? Of course.
Will I choose to play Grand Prix 2 over those? Almost every day, because IT RESONATES WITH ME. But that doesn't mean I have to go into every comment section of videos of those modern sims and just say: "Go back to GP2, it was better"
@discinfiltrator_games certainly, for most games you don't need to go back. For others sadly, nothing worth came out in the last 20 years - Richard Burns Rally (and I love Dirt 2.0, but that's not a full sim effort)
@@discinfiltrator_games Yes and no - I'm of similar age if not a bit older (past 40) and some of the older games, while they had their limitations, where genuinely better thought out than many modern ones. Take the example of Grand Prix 2 you made - sure, compared to F1 23 has its limitations (no wet weather, limited rules implementation etc.), but it was a much better thought out game as it offered a more immediate gameplay without sacrificing immersion NOR details dedicated to more hardcore F1 fans. You could pick it up and play, or spend hours refining the setup for the ultimate laptime - and setups were both detailed AND personal, they really affected how the car behaved in corners, over bumps etc.; if I loaded the setup of a friend, I'd find the car undriveable and vice versa.
Jump to F1 23 - in career mode, each race is a loooong slog where you either have to deal with collecting "development points" or play some silly card chance game for them. One could argue that it's great you need to go through FP1/2/3 because setup etc., but it ain't the case - the game is so stupidly superficial and broken that setup wise it has "metas", you can download these off the internet and they are the BEST setup possible for everyone, giving an undeniable advantage - with values that make no sense whatsoever to anybody who understands a little about how a car works (like the now infamous -2.50/-1.00/0.05/0.20 for the wheel alignment, or the lowest tire pressures always being best). It has been like this for YEARS, and it's a shame 'cause for the first time since 2020ish, the handling is again fun and reminescent of a monstruously grippy race car, rather than racing on ice. They just wasted precious resources and time in useless "features" like Braking Point and F1 World.
This is not a matter of "nostalgia", but just the fact that nearly 30 years ago, Microprose and Geoff Crammond put much better thought into thier game than what Codemasters are doing nowadays.
@@h3llr4iser1I have not played the F1 games but you make a good point. Older games did indeed generally feel more thought out overall. I think those people had a much better idea what makes a game fun, engaging and rewarding as opposed to modern games. Those people were often gamers themselves, which may not but true to the same extent these days, especially in divisions making important decisions such as management.
I have a theory that modern games are deliberately made to not be fun, engaging and rewarding, just fun "enough" to keep people buying them. If a game is a masterpiece, the next iteration will almost never live up to the expectations, it will be doomed to fail. Making a masterpiece will not necessarily reward the company financially either, since the quality of a game doesn't affect sales that much, it is actually a severe lag beind quality of product and sales since brand name as well as IP is more important. If a game takes 50% longer time to create but only sell 10% more for instance, it may not be worth it financially. Unlike other industries, it feels like reputation takes alot longer to destroy. Battlefield can release three garbage games in a row in the span of 10 years and people will still buy the next one in the hope that it is as good as the ones from 10+ years ago were for example.
Gameplay/physics and such have for the most part improved over the years, but that doesn't matter if the game feels pointless, have broken mechanics and systems, or have a terrible progression/reward system. Those aspects are where most modern games falls short.
Somehow I see the NFS fanbase as the Sonic fanbase equivalent of racing games, as the devs of these franchises prioritize innovation over cohesion coupled with arguably inconsistent quality in each installment, it triggers division among the fan base to the point it become toxic
And btw, I think since the racing game fans in general (outside Mario Kart and its clone) were seen as niche but vocal, it complicates matter to devs and publishers alike and pleasing everyone with uncertainties over the critical reception and the amount of their game sold when compared with the rising cost of development and content licensing (if any) nowadays, will be an herculean task so corner-cutting in some aspects will bound to happen, obvious or not. This also the same reason why we rarely seen new racing game IPs recently.
As much as I adore the first 4 Gran Turismo games because they were essentially my childhood, I disagree with the "Just make a new GT4," comments because they should make the current game or the next game better with more innovation. Anyway, keep fighting the good fight, waffle! The racing game community needs more people like you.
The thing is, that feeling is not without precedent. Especially with GT Sport and 7, it feels like PD only makes things worse and worse. 7 especially - it's basically GT Sport 2.0 with worst single player structure the franchise have seen since GT1. They promised a game that combines the old and new and ended up making a game that somehow is worse than GT1 or even GT Sport.
A lot of people, including myself, feels like they could've just made GT4 in 4K and it'll be much better than the travesty that is GT7. If they couldn't show themselves innovating, wouldn't it better to just copy the proven formula instead of making an absolute travesty? Do not fix what's not broken.
@@ZX3000GT1GT7 for me is the WORST GRAN TURISMO GAME EVER! It also forced us to play ONLINE ONLY for even offline singleplayer mode!
I guess the feeling behind "GT4 (2023)" isn't that GT4 is the best of all time, but more the last time the GT series added new fun things without also adding even more annoying things.
They literally did make a new GT4. TWICE. But these people refuse to even acknowledge GT5 or GT6's existence. Funny how they beg for a modern GT4, yet criticize those two games for "being too similar to GT4". Literally no better than NFSMW fanboys.
@@purwantiallan5089 I think all GT fans can agree with that, except the GT subreddit somehow. Those clowns have tried arguing that it's the best. Seriously how the fuck is GT7 even remotely the best.
The real problem is social media its always swaying the majority, which ultimately confuses developers making another set of people upset, so instead they should go dark not even announce a teaser just focus on perfecting new mechanics new ai and new leveling systems it might take years to develop or not idk but that alone would greatly improve the racing community whether a idie or triple A
The nostalgia bias part is rather interesting. Thing is, what do people talk about most from the old games? The gameplay. Who was it again who had a video segment im memoriam of events such as 'like the wind', 'MR challenge', '1000 Miles.'? *looks around* Sure it was someone around here...
Not everything about the gameplay of the older GT games was good, though, hence why we need to be mindful of our biases toward them. These are some of the flaws I can identify in each GT game:
GT1 & GT2-needing to earn a licence with all gold medals rather than merely earn all gold medals to get their associated prize cars.
GT1-stupidly bad turbo lag, not including the excellent Corvette Stingray in Simulation Mode, and having an arbitrary list of cars for the Lightweight Cup that excludes some cars lighter than cars on the list.
GT2-lack of purpose to one-make races, ruining the Corvette Stingray from GT1, poor physics for several MR cars, blatantly cheating AI racers, and endurance prize toss-ups that make no sense.
GT3-a grind-heavy early game, too many non-renewable prize cars, tedious events for slow cars, no ability to add downforce adjustment to road cars, and absurd prize roulettes for some championships and endurances.
GT4-absurdly long races even with fast-forwarding in B-Spec, difficult and tedious Driving Missions, unnecessarily difficult one-make races, so-called "special cars" which are nearly useless to players, and an Arcade Mode lacking any sort of progression system that rewards players for playing.
@@reillywalker195 GT4, as much as I love it (streaming it as a series at the moment) it has its faults. AI too aggressive for no reason, some very dreary manufacturer races, very long series (I A-specced 1000 miles live :| ) but at least the races are there. GT7 could take some of these and make spiritual successors. 1000 miles for instance, instead of four 2.5-3.5 hour races... Twelve one hour, wouldn't that be something?
I absolutely agree that nostalgia is a huge worship of why modern games are reviewed poorly by gamers. It doesn't dismiss the fact that the game might suck butt heavily contributes to it. I recently started playing GT4 again, and honestly, it is not as good as I remember. I much prefer modern games because, for me, car physics and realistic graphics are much more important than a fantastic storyline. One of my favorite games is Dirt Rally 2.0, not because it has a great storyline but that it gives me a great sensation of what it would be like to drive a rally car.
I can't play GT4 because it lacks the soul of GT2 and GT3 and it's literally worse in almost every regard compared to GT5 and GT6. Best GT game my ass lol. And I grew up with GT4 lol.
@SonicBoone56 I would have to say GT3 has the best gameplay loop of the series, easiest to control with fun courses with a rally engine that actually handles like it should, simple license tests, the loading is short and minimal, and amazing wheel support for the time, only reason I play 4 still is it allows me to use my sequential knob on my Driving Force GT and the soundtrack IT'S TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME, TO ROLL!!
I feel like an alien at least 90% of the time because I apparently don't have a set of "nostalgia glasses". It's an extraordinarily odd phenomenon from the outside looking in tbh. I can equate it to being in a 3 person conversation and the other 2 people are talking about a subject you have absolutely no knowledge of. It feels just about that bad...
I think I can relate, I have nostalgia for some games but I recognize them as what they are. I don't like GTA Vice City nearly as much as I did as a kid.
As someone looking to make their own Racing Game. I have been looking for a video like this for years now. This perfectly sums up and straightens out everything that's currently going on these days with the Racing Game Genre. Everything Is straight to the point with no filter and is a well-needed slap to the face of the misconceptions, controversies and opinions. THANK YOU!!!
Videos like this one, talking about the state of racing games genre and how it can be improved pushed me into starting development of my own racing game in few recent months
Been a few months alone It took me to create a camera system similar to midnight club Los Angeles and little of NFS pro street
The camera system and trying to understand to make it feel like the car is going fast while it's actually driving real f slow, made me appreciate a lot for 2000s games but my take is different how it should feel (or at least the one am planning on)
Driving slow cars fast but only everyday cars as it's related to the story that's been halfway written (case would like to experiment with the idea of story changing by how you drive around the town)
There are many things I think the racing genre can benefit from other genres like custom lobbies with mods online, or mod tools that's easy to learn can give your game a lot of life if you have been busy with the next game or gone for some reason.
Tutorials and trying to learn inside unreal engine was half pain and half good I would say, I know how to use UE before but only for creating custom maps for a shooter 2 or more years ago
All I can say goodluck with your game and I hope you find a good way to learn whatever engine you choose
@@A7med9870Looks like all three of us are making our own racing games due to the state of the genre (I'm also making my own racing game)
Have you tried Trail Out on pc? It's a indie studio made very well
Why does the XP system for Forza actually sound pretty good? Like I really want to be able to work towards things, and I think it might be something that racing games need. I want to see innovation in racing games, I want something new, even if it turns out bad, it's worth trying something different to see what works. Just because something is familiar, doesn't mean it's what we need. Gran Turismo 7 tried something different (kind of unintentionally) and turned out pretty bad. That doesn't mean change is unnecessary. We need something new. We need innovation.
I’m actually really excited for the car XP system and progression in the new FM. I like having to develop a relationship with a car IRL, and it’s something I feel is fundamentally missing from many modern racing games. Ironically, I think NFS unbound is the only modern racing game I feel does a decent job of this.
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one thinking this way. If i like racing with a specific car, i would drive with it regardless of if i got free upgrades for it or not. If this innovative system will be implemented in a proper way, this could be a massive step forward in the forza motorsport franchise, especially after the decline it received after the previous 3 games (5, 6 and 7). I definitely appreciate the game devs trying something innovate and original, even if it receives alot of backlash, from those people who don't look at the positives and only strongly reflect on the negatives of a game. It's fine to have your own opinion on if you like this system or not, but i personally approve of this idea.
Such as system on paper would be really interesting since this could give cars more of a distinct identity or connection with the player. Part of the whole thing about why cars are loved is the connection between human and machine after all. Sadly I have no idea if I can trust Turn10 to not fuck it up. I seriously wish to be proven wrong though.
Yup it sounds pretty cool. And I'm honestly very interested to see how Motorsport 8 will turn out. Moderately concerned because modern game titles are mediocre more often than not, but for whatever foolish reason I hold out a little hope lol. Will be there to try it day one on Game Pass anyways.
In a series like Forza or GT the individual cars generally don't see too much use as you have to jump around between a lot of different ones to compete in the various events (Can't take a Miata into a American Muscle Cars event, and your Cuda can't compete in a FF Hatchback race), so unless the entry requirements are loose enough that almost anything can compete it is just going to force tedious grind to get your cars up to max (and of course the AI won't have the XP limits on their upgrades so you may have to grind to get a car that can match their speed). In a game like the Tokyo Extreme Racer series where you tend to stick to a single car for quite a long time it could work, but like TER Zero needing to hit a certain mileage to unlock all the engine upgrades just results in sitting the game on auto-pilot and leaving your PS2 on overnight to get those miles in.
I see it far more as a limiter to what cars a player might use than anything else honestly, as you won't jump to a different car since it means you will have to start the XP grind over again thus greatly limiting the percentage of cars you try out (Again the TER Zero example shines because if you want to switch from rocking a Supra to a Skyline you'll need to not only grind cash to get it upgraded but also grind mileage to unlock said upgrades and you hope like hell it isn't something that is just completely outmatched even when maxed to not waste your very limited resources).
I’m so glad I found rofl, he has finally been saying what what very few had the balls to say. If you look at a completely unbiased standpoint and analyze every Gran Turismo game from 1-4, 3 is the best. Not because of nostalgia, but because of the perfect synergy between cars, tracks, events, and other misc features. Gran Turismo 4 improved on the mechanics of GT3, but lacked innovation in key areas that were lacking in previous titles. Gran Turismo fans especially get on my nerves because of how so utterly alike that are. They think 1 was alright, 2 was great, 3 was boring, 4 was the best, and 5, 6, Sport and 7 all suck. It’s the most blatant case of rose tinted glasses of the past.
As a game Dev I have learned never take most people's feedback at face value. It takes a LOT of work to design, implement, tune, and integrate game systems together into a coherent experience. What you need to do is read the sub-text of what they are saying, and infer and development systems, and experiences that address the sub text. There are also many types of gamers, that are looking for different experiences, broadly there are two types, to oversimplify, one is gamers, they want to know what they need to do to win. You create a fun experience that leads them to a completion experience so they can say they finished the game and won, or completed it. Another are players, they want to explore the simulation, they are not necessarily motivated by completing, they are more interested in exploring experiences and challenges, even if they are self created challenges. GT 7 pretty much failed as a game because it isn't a game and wasn't intended to be a game. They slapped on game aspects to appeal to a wider market and appeal to different demographics. But ultimately GT 7 is a driving simulator. Where for the most part you try to solve driving challenges, and create your own driving experiences depending on how you like to play the game. It is very complex and to get good at the game there are a lot of subtleties that have to be mastered. Ai being one example, at first the AI feels punishing, but after you have achieved a certain level of mastery you can watch the AI cars literally moving out of your way to let you through.
Having watched your series of criticisms about GT 7 I think they are mostly correct especially through the lens of a 'game', but if you look through the lens of a simulator many of the points become more or less irrelevant.
I think we are coming to the end of driving games. The physics/car performance are astounding, the cars are beautiful, and customizeable. The tracks are varied and present different challenges. The performance tuning is on the verge of moving out of what is possible for pretending its a game, into real life performance tuning challenges. You can repackage this in different combinations to appeal to different player groups, but that is cosmetic. I'm not saying its bad, it's just not really changing anything about the underlying game mechanics.
As for grinding, that is subjective, if your goal is to 'complete' the game then I can understand why that's frustrating, you just want to get through the game to the reward/win as quickly as possible. But, if you just 'enjoy' playing the game, the sensation of driving, and solving challenges, then there isn't a grind, you're just doiign what you enjoy doing and getting rewards for doing it.
Long rambling rant, but just needed to say a bunch of things
From what game?
Game devs seemingly never gonna take things seriously.
Some people enjoy grinding yes, but the AI does suck. The rewards per race do suck. The variety of grind races does suck.
It's absolutely not a simple matter of "enjoying doing what you're doing and getting rewards for it"
That statement was true in GT6, it's not true in GT7.
Can you try Trail Out game even though it's a arcade one ?
@@luichinplaystation610 I don't understand what your asking for
As much as racing games (and all games for that matter) should innovate with every new iteration, sometimes i feel like previous innovations are discarded too quickly. For example, the day/night system in nfs heat where in the day the races were legitimate and thus paid money and had no traffic, but night races were illegal, gave reputation and had traffic everywhere, all while the cops were breathing down your neck, which in my opinion created a really nice dynamic between the two. But for unbound, they threw away this nice dynamic and just rolled your heat level from the day into the night, while both day and night had police, and both gave the same rewards from races. This was in my opinion a far less interesting system with no real balance between day and night, which made it feel like change for the sake of change that was passed off as “innovation”. However, this is all just my opinion and if u disagree or prefer the day/night system in unbound over heat thats fine too. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, they just aren’t entitled to tell others that their opinion is the objectively definitively correct one.
Unbound was a let down when that "Day/Night" system was dropped from Heat, another reason why I uninstalled the game after 16 hours of playing. EA owes me exactly $75 till this day.
@@haaxxx9you act like EA cares about you bruh, no, no they don't.
@@TheCapitalWanderer I know, that's why I still need my $75 back but I will never get that will I? Learned my lesson.
i loved gt7, but my problem is there is nothing to do.
once i finished the career, i just sat there. wondering what to do now. i don’t have the playstation subscription thingy, so playing online is out (and paying $10 a month to go racing online is a ripoff). so i have no idea what to do in the game
I have this exact same problem with Forza Horizon 5
This right here
Do you get Platinum trophy?
I also have this problem with Forza Motorsport 4 and the THQ Cars games
There’s a deeper nostalgia issue with these games. Cars. Like music or fashion, there’s a period of time for every person that had “the best cars” and while new cars are fun, there’s less of them than ever before, especially performance cars, and they’re in a lot of cases increasingly reliant on stability and dynamics controls that add a whole other layer of complexity to making them drive right in a game. The GT-R being the formative warning of that technological oncoming storm.
Which leads me back to Nostalga car periods. Thanks to GT itself, a lot of people are emotionally pegged to late 80’s through 90’s cars, particularly Japanese manufacturers. Back when Toyota alone had 3 completely different awesome cars Being sold at the same time (Cellica, Supra, and MR2) to say nothing of the Subiedorks and EVOtaku folks in the muddy anoraks. German manufacturers were going crazy with Icons they still ride the coat tails of to this day.
The other big landmark point was everything they covered on Top Gear for the 2000’s. 430 Scuds, Zondas, Koningsingsingsingsingeggs, the Veyron. The apogee of the old way of making cars before skynet. V-12’s, V-10’s, all flavors of V-8’s. Cranky finicky Turbos.
The Racing games just can’t keep everything, and manufacturers want their new cars licensed and represented because it sells cars. And there’s some great new cars.
But, people also get nostalgic for their old friends, their cranky exes, their posters hung up on their walls when they were young enough to not comprehend what $200,000 actually means in the real world.
And even if they can’t put their finger on it, the games will always feel a little unfulfilling, unsatisfying, the flaws in the gameplay easier to criticize as a scape goat than the void left by the loss of a favorite car, maybe not even a car they cared a lot about in real life, but a car that was part of their experience.
to be fair most cars look samey now then back then also i mean there 3 diffrent cars that look all the same like gt 86
@@soarin64 Yea Subaru, Toyota, and Scion all ripping each other off ;)
Now this is a great point. Iconic cars are getting older and older every year, licensing becomes harder, and new cars need some time to become famous too considering that this whole industry doesn't feel the same as before (and that's completely normal).
Love that you're starting to sound comfortable in front of the mic and that you're implementing jokes and all that. Really adds to the entertainment
45:48 "If we want racing games to be better,we have to be better. It's time to stop hiding in the past"
Beautiful quote
It isn't a good quote though, because he doesn't make a decent argument there. The community isn't to blame for the developer's shortcomings.
It's only a "beautiful quote" to you and the upvoters of this comment because it caters to your bias. It's an appeal to emotion rather than fact.
Beautifully vague so that midwits can feel they are so poetic and smart.
@@nftscreenshotter6436 Type of guys who can't move on.
@@theraiden9631he got an NFT pfp, expecting intelligence out of that people is like expecting santa to give a Mclaren F1
i like the fact that the first 2 repliers cant understand such a simple quote lmao
In my opinion, one of the big issue with racing game genre is that we players are way to trigger happy at complimenting how well the game looks. Whenever there is a trailer, the most comments/contents are about how good/bad the trailer looks. But then, developers get mislead thinking players only care about graphics.
Honestly I used to be like the nostalgia people and still occationally do but it's getting annoying how much people hate new changes. Some racing game came out recently honestly did a good job recreating the feeling.
Need for speed Heat is the Most wanted we wanted but for many they still ain't satisfy. I will very recommended people to go back in older racing game and take a look how old clanky some of these games are. We need more variation not what we used to have.
With a little effort, I think the menu books idea could've been done much more effectively than GT7 implemented.
I was thinking after watching a previous video of yours that it'd be interesting to see what would come of menu books being in a game like GT4 (for example) as a side mode similar to the Driving Missions.
Suddenly, instead of seeing the Daimler Benz come up as a prize and scoffing, you suddenly have 1/3 of the Most Vintage collection. What's that? Should I invest time into finding the others? You take a look, and you see that there's a flat reward of, say, 250k credits for your effort plus some other prize car (Like a futuristic concept for the novelty of contrast). Cool! Now I want to complete the events that give me the other Benz and maybe even work towards that fabled Model T so I get the set bonus.
If Menus were implemented as a side attraction rather than the core campaign, they'd bring the interest to these cars that the game so desperately wants you to have. When it's the PLAYER'S choice to engage, that forms a connection. It's why (to use another comparison from your other videos) completing the Pokedex is something Pokemon players want to do - it's never required outright, but there are unlocks and a sense of achievement that comes with it, and along the way, you end up finding new favourites.
To bring this back around to the main subject of this video, writing off menus entirely because they "ruined GT7's campaign" isn't useful. Why? They were mandatory. What can we change to make Menus interesting rather than detrimental? Make the event progression a separate thing to the Menus. Of course, you're not forced to just "make it like the old ones", but the point is that the previously semi-open core progression suffers from being channelled through menus.
That honestly sounds like an interesting way of implementing the menu books! Last night when I was trying to get some shut eye, I was thinking about how GT Café could be some sort of hub for players who were friends in the game to gather or for complete strangers to gather and randomly connect with others while having a lovely discussion about whatever car or car-related topic (or even just something completely unrelated to cars).
This is what I thought the menu books should be. The menu books being the campaign in GT7 made the car culture theme way too forced
It feels like one of the issues that ties into nostalgia goggles being so powerful is that people seem to start from the assumption that perfection has to exist in the first place. They conflate something aligning with their tastes to hit them perfectly at a specific time with something actually being perfect. But I've been playing and replaying these classic racing games off and on a fair amount in the last few years, and even with strong nostalgia goggles for some of them I see plenty of glaring room for improvement. And even though a lot of that is with the lens of having seen the innovations and improvements of games that have come since, even trying to strictly evaluate the games in the context of their time, it's very possible to see where they could have been better. And I'm 100% sure if you could go back and ask around the development team of one of these games the day after shipping what they wish they could've done differently, they'd have a whole list of issues of their own.
Understanding and appreciating that GT4, or FM4, or MW2005, or Burnout 3 or any of these games have problems has no reason to take away from or invalidate our love for them. I'd even argue that seeing their faults and shortcomings and still being inspired by their virtues to wish for even better games in the future shows even more love than just mindlessly parroting how they're generically "the best," because the former shows passion for the games themselves and the latter just shows passion for having favorite games to evangelize.
But sadly, these problems with racing games discourse are just microcosms of the massive problems with discourse in general these days, and I don't really see how it could get much better. I think the only way people will start to let go of nostalgia is if the stars align so that some new racing game absolutely knocks it out of the park on all fronts to the level that enough people have to recognize that the genre has potential to be more than just what the golden age is remembered as.
*Sigh*
Very well said. The other driving force of rose tinted glasses is if the newer games are worse in general. You won't see this anywhere near as much in games that have constantly solid releases. How many Zelda fans are begging for a copy and paste of Twilight Princess? None, because TotK is great.
Of course if you go back and play a older game now obviously it's not going to feel the same because you've been playing these newer games that have better graphics better handling that are more advanced.
In the 2000s when we playing need for speed most wanted, needs to be underground 2, need for speed underground 1, project Gotham racing series, grid, midnight club, and even other games in general sports games fighting games etc
At that time we could only compare them to games from the '90s. So obviously if I'm playing need for speed most wanted 2005 obviously it's better than need for speed high stakes from 1998.
If I'm playing test drive in the mid 2000s obviously it's better than test drive 3 from 1999.
Me personally I don't think games nowadays are as good or fun as they once were, you can't tell me that any NFL Madden game that's came out over the last 8 or 9 years are better than the maddens from the 2000s or NBA 2K or NFL 2K5
Look how worse call of duty has gotten yeah the graphics is good the game play and is more technically advanced and smoother, but the game overall is not better than call of duty 4, original MW2, original Black ops, world at war, Black ops 2, original MW3,
The only thing that's better about these newer games is the graphics and the handling and they're more technically advanced, but far as immersion and "fun" it's not even close the older games are better.
Also if I'm playing need for speed underground 2 right now it's not the same as me playing need for speed underground 1or 2 in 2003 and 2004. it's not the same as me playing midnight club DUB edition in 2005. it's a different era the music's different, people were different, television and cable was different, food was different, the way people act was different society was different and in my opinion more fun back then.
People pine for the old days because noone is taking what old games did and improving upon it. So many mechanics and ideas trapped in older games, never to be used again
Right
When's the last time a street racing game had actual pink slip racing where you can lose your car? When's the last time a street racing game had actual gambling? What happened to gimmicks like NFS's Speed Breakers and Pursuit Breakers or Midnight Clubs Zone, Roar, EMP and Agro? What happened to Highway racing? What happened to red light racing? Why don't racing games have collectibles anymore? What happened to classic check point racing with short cuts and cool routes?
Street and track Racing games today feel entirely too bland, childish, boring, they have no sense of progression or accomplishment, no wow factors anymore.
I feel like alot of these people also aren't looking into the sales that prove the older games were better
Take NFS for example. The old games sold on average 9-15 Million Copies
The last 5 or so games (excluding HP2010) have barely cleared 20M combined
@@P_D-px6ivsales do not equate to quality, does any of you ever learn from The Last of Us Part 2? jesus. and yeah, MW05 isn't that good, even by Modern NFS's Standard. believe me, i played most BlackBox games recently and then played the Modern NFS after
@@TheCapitalWanderer I mean the top selling games of all time last time I checked are all pretty good games lol so I feel like sales do indicate quality. Typically the worst quality a game is the worse it sells.
And I don't entirely disagree with you I don't think most the older NFS games really hold up that well I'd say the only ones that do is UG2 for the Customization aspect and Prostreet because it's still one of the only good arcade focused simcade racers you can play
I never played the run so I can't comment on it
The newer NFS games have had a pretty atrocious streak though
NFS 2015 was too ambitious and didn't deliver anything good
Payback felt like a Fast and Furious game but the offroad racing and drifting were solid
Heat was boring and grindy with the most aggressive cop AI since Undercover but the map, vehicles, and customization were decent
Personally I like Unbound I think its the best NFS I've played since the Blackbox era I feel it just gets a bad rap because the odd artistic choices and horrible soundtrack
@@P_D-px6ivnot always the case, Skyrim and Fallout 4 sold more than Kingdom Come Deliverance and Fallout New Vegas, and yet simply by playing Fallout New Vegas and Kingdom Come Deliverance, you can tell that the latter is the better RPG. and i think this is the case with racing games, difference is, the WRPG community knows very well what they want and when they received it, they are happy. same can not be said with NFS community, sure Most Wanted 05 sold more but is it better than its modern counterparts ? throughout my experience i found out that it is not. Most Wanted 05 isn‘t BlackBox‘s Morrowind, it‘s just a surface level racing game with cops and an excessive amount of yellow filter, MW05 has too much flaws for it to be considered great, when it only masters in one mechanic and lacking in everything else, Customization is a lot worse, Racing and Pursuits both get repetitive, pacing is bad (you are gonna be put on a huge kneecap and need to repeat even more races and pursuits again), game gets very grindy after blacklist 9. i can continue on and on about how awful MW05 is by today‘s standards, heck i‘d rather play DiRT 2 over MW05, and no i don‘t have any nostalgia on DiRT.
What i want from a modern racing game, is taking what people loved about the older games, and expand on them, or even add completely new features that has never been tried before.
Which is what GT7 is supposed to be?
And is not
@dudeonlygamingandotherstuf7791 which it failed
Yes. GT7 did it so well with adding completely new features that has never been tried before - offline battle pass, shitty economy and near gacha levels of grinding, microtransactions, FOMO legends car list, focusing more in adding scapes instead of making the racing better, boring ass new tracks that doesn't hold the candle to the older games, making a revolutionary AI that ended up being unused in favor of shitty early 2000s AI. Good innovation lmao.
@@ZX3000GT1Literally what I was thinking.
Thanks for spelling it out
I do not have played NFS UNBOUND, But.. one thing that i liked is the visuals.. some people don't liked... But one thing that i have to tell. IN YEARS this is the first game that try to innovate the visuals of a racing game.. and i give way more points to that!
talking about the nostalgia factor really resinated with me, as i was an avid fan of NFS MW 2012 when i was young. that was the game that almost singlehandedly got me hooked on cars and i loved it! but now, with time and even with the nostalgia that it now evoques in me, im still able to see its flaws, and although it will remain as one of my favourite racing games, i wouldnt like that we'd go back and have a "remaster" of that game, not just because i dont really play NFS nor does that kind of arcade game really move me as im more into sims now, even in the NFS genre it wouldn't be any good. great video as always, and keep on going!
I hope you talk about "SPLIT/SECOND", a truly INNOVATIVE racing game, with the UNCOMMON gameplay.
Ditch the opponents use the destructible things around the circuits, as well as switching routes.
IT'S A BIG BLAST. AND YOU SHALL TALK ABOUT THAT.
Note: Disney, a company that mostly known with its family-oriented content, is a PUBLISHER.
Split/Second was so great. Disney also published Pure, which basically was SSX with ATVs. It was also very cool.
Split Second was a rip-off of Motorstorm, Stunt Driver, and Ridge Racer
@@P_D-px6ivdidn't make it worse tho
He probably didn't even play split second he didn't even play the Golden age of need for speed games in the early 2000s he said.
split second didnt sell well my guy, they aint here no more, your comment is pointless because even the community back then didnt appreciate the game enough to allow a sequel
innovative my ass, it changes no racing games at all in the whole scheme of things, Test Drive Unlimited is what you can say as innovative because it affects other franchises.
I strongly disagree with the OST argument in need for speed. You are overlooking the fact that most wanted had dynamic soundtrack meaning the soundtrack changes as the pursuit is evolving becoming more dramatic. This is gone or not as much present in unbound despite the fact that they try to make pursuit high states. There is also the fact that the music choice doesn't fit the pacing at all. For instance, if you look at older games, the menu music has a much different feel than the racing music. You don't get that in unbound at all. For example Underground 1 had rap music in the menu and rock in race. Unbound soundtrack feels like it was just thrown together at random. MW 2005 and Underground 1 and 2 feels much more deliberate.
Exactly, in earlier NFS games there was a noticeable variety of tracks (pre HP2 had a big of original electronic and at times rock tracks that I listen even today and Black Box era also had a noticeable mix of rock, rap and electronic styles) and at least 80 percent are straight bangers. Unbound fails on both sides, while there's a so-called diversity but variety and quality suck balls in many areas (especially for me as a russian-speaking hearing some tracks makes me want to throw up due to cringe)
The fuck does the dynamic pursuit soundtrack have to do with licensed soundtrack?
@@NerfMaster000 Well, the pursuit soundtrack is part of the soundtrack and it is well done. This speaks to the sound design of Unbound.
Right? There could be some good punk rock songs added to it as I feel that genre fits well with the anti-establishment tone the game has with its story and artstyle
Uhm... the pursuit OST in Unbound is good though? And is also dynamic? Have you even played the game?
One additional problem of fan feedback are fanboys shi..ng on games just because it’s a Microsoft or Sony product. Makes it even harder to filter out constructive criticism.
Bless up 🙏
😅y i😅
Wait wtf. GT3 is the first game you remember? ... Im old... GT1 is my first nostalgia trip.
I think it can almost be argued that Gran Turismo has 3 generations of fans:
1) Those who started with any of the first 4 games
2) Those who started with GT5 or GT6
3) Those who started with GT7
The only other racing game series that has more generations of fans is Need for Speed with maybe 4:
1) Those that started with the 90s games
2) Those that started with the early to mid 2000s games
3) Those that started with the late 2000s to early 2010s games
4) Those that started with the mid 2010s games
Honestly, when it comes to fans feeling like they can't let go of the past, its NFS to me that suffers the most. I get that most people jumped into the series starting with Underground, its sequel, Most Wanted and such but I swear it always baffles me whenever someone comes out and say "NFS is having an identity crisis" or "This game just doesn't compare to the golden age" that the NFS games have been getting since like as early as Undercover.
and I do agree that Unbound gets too much shit than it really deserves.
Hmm you’re right but comparing Heat to Unbound I would take Heat all day
Thank you. Glad I’m not the only one who feels this way. I understand that games like Unbound aren’t going to be everyone’s cup of tea, and that’s fine, but as someone who’s played since the “golden age” of Need for Speed, I really wish people would stop clinging to the past and open their minds to newer games. Even if they still favor the older titles, they’d probably enjoy the newer ones if they just gave them a chance.
Its because need for speed constantly abandons types of games. No more games like most wanted, or hot pursuit both versions, or underground 1. And no one makes games like these
@@GG_1318 That's what makes NFS special, it's a series that was never afraid of trying new things and there is a Need for Speed game for everyone, for every taste. This is great, especially on a genre that is known for stagnation and lack of creativity.
@@Brenooliveira8989 Most nfs are delisted, so there is not an nfs for everyone. The newest nfs games brought nothing new to the table.
Something I've been doing for quite a while now is replaying games while keeping in mind the context of what came before, what was offered on release alongside said game and the mistakes of the future. What I've personally noticed is that lot of the games that have the most nostalgia fangirling have already reached peak velocity or even started slowing down at the time. If this is modeled as say, a parabolic curve of interest, that would mean the rate of descent rises exponentially, leading to the perception that x game is the downfall while the actual process might date back to x-1 game or even x-2, x-3 and so on depending on multiple factors. What I've noticed for Need For Speed for instance is that from the very beginning the franchise was all annual releases. The most limiting factor about these sorts of releases is that they are much more dependent on short term profits, meaning that something with more broad appeal over a long period of time is generally beneficial. This is why I find the time where NFS jumped on the F&F train to be perplexing from a business standpoint, as while it achieves the strong advantage of having a strong direct symbiotic relationship with the car culture of the time, it's also attaching itself onto a part of car culture that's extremely variable compared to say, what simcades and sims are into where almost everyone can agree that good clean racing is the peak of entertainment. It even explained why ProStreet was made, as that's also where that part of car culture was shifting towards with the whole "maybe tracks are cool after all" sort of deal with more interest in how cars truly handle, track days and the like. However, this was so different from what Black Box was doing that they couldn't adapt due to yearly schedules limiting flexibility, turning into what I assume to be a big reason as to why ProStreet was not doing well, thus causing what I call the headless chicken arc of NFS where the identity of the franchise kept changing constantly. Sometimes it's a simcade (Shift series), sometimes it's trying to be like Most Wanted again (Undercover), one time it tried to be like what F&F was actually becoming like at the time (The Run), then it tried paying tribute to the really old classics (NFS 3, HP2) with HP 2010, then when that somehow worked tried doing it again with MW 2012 but forgetting to switch up the identity to match. People do seem to appreciate ProStreet more these days, but there's barely such thing as liking something in retrospect when it comes to annual releases.
The basic takeaway of this is that one shouldn't be afraid to go back to these games and actually dig into them. Gut them out, find the inner workings and absolutely do not sugarcoat especially if you know something was missing, dated or stagnant from back then. Do that with the golden children and their classmates and their predecessors and successors. You could find unique innovations done in previous games you may barely hear about as well as find the beginning of the end of your favorites. The example of NFS is one I like bringing up since from my analysis, the start of the state of the franchise going down a bad path could go not just as far as NFS 2015 or MW 2012, but even as far back as beloved classics such as MW 2005 or even UG 1 by settling on unstable ground unlike their more stable predecessors (they were closer to "good clean racing fun but we're little rascals unlawfully driving at high speed through exotic places") or even the very dawn of the entire franchise by EA's continuous insistence on annual titles if you wanna stretch that far.
oh btw when they gonna get that sim netcode thing under control seriously it's as bad as fromsoft netcode
Enthusia Professional Racing has a car upgrade structure which rewards the player for driving each car and winning races, by accumulating points toward car improvements.
It felt rewarding and I enjoyed getting to know each car, and upgrades never became meaningless like may happen in other games where after a while you just have a pile of money or credits and can do whatever you want, without significant investment.
Enthusia was so cool and fun. Highly underrated
The FM car XP system is an interesting idea to me. I think it forces you to play the game like you had to play GT4 in the beginning stages, which in my mind is what made that game feel good in terms of progression. When you get to the point in a racing game where you can buy whatever car you want and fully upgrade it without going broke the game is no longer a challenge.
Depends on what you define by no longer a challenge, I'm personally fine with FH5 Rewards system , i don't want to grind days just to get just one expensive car (which is what GT7 is), cuz i got other stuff to do, online racing was always challenging to me, if i ever want one, i just go there even if it's not perfectly done, but Online in racing games have always been like that (a truly mess)
That being said, i don't mind the new FM having a longer progression, i just hope it won't be getting to the point, where it feels like a chores, i don't want to be entitled on just focusing on one thing or one game, cuz i have other stuff to play & do
Well, I hope you don't start with a 400hp Nissan Z in the next Forza like we saw in the preview.
@@iluvmyoosikbut why shouldn't it be for them?
i've never played FH5 without any invitation from my friends, and i kinda appreciate the game giving me crazy cars within half an hour of my pre-session, the game still have nothing to do after getting the car except modifying it and set the handling, but still appreciated
To me it gave me GT5/7 level restrictions to cars and parts wise then a GT4 but I could be reading it wrong I didn't understand it or the menus well.
When I bought FM6 the menus were unclear till I played it myself and hate FM6 so I am very unsure what to think of FM8/reboot in some aspects and only the grid position stands out to me as an awesome feature, but the rest not as much a clear sign to me yet (online only boooooo).
The trailers were montages and annoyed me they wouldn't tell us and no racing fans don't care so it felt odd to show nothing.
The expanded gameplay/Dev talk moments I didn't see much/articles only said so much so I am still confused.
Proper coverage or game in front of me sure but otherwise I don't know really enough about it to get excited.
My issue with a lot of modern games is that they do things that make me think "Why the hell would you do that?" GT7 didn't let you buy engine swaps until recently, leaving them up to very slim odds. Need For Speed Unbound locks the M3 GTR behind a subscription that will take the car from you once you stop paying for it, even if you bought the thing already. Forza Motorsport will be always online. These kinds of decisions make absolutely NO sense on a fundamental, logical level. To address them individually:
Engine swaps are a new, exciting thing for GT. Why restrict them so much? I know they fixed that, but the fact that it was an issue at all is baffling. Why would you lock a car behind a subscription, much less one that's IN THE PREVIOUS GAME? How desperate/stupid does EA think people are? Finally, Always online (barring dedicated multiplayer games obviously) will not only royally piss off the fanbase, but will also stamp an indefinite expiration date on your game you paid 60-100 dollars for. And you better hope there's no outages on your side or theirs, cause if there is, NO GAME FOR YOU! These sorts of issues, AO in particular, have obvious, beyond- the- game level downsides. But they keep seeping into new releases despite how damaging they are. I would love either "old, but better", or "new and awesome". I'm not very picky in that regard. But "blatant bullshit" needs to go and stay gone.
I’ve only just started watching, but when the Driv3r menu music started playing, I went “oh my god”. It’s so cool to see a somewhat niche, or at least out of the spotlight game’s music used! It was my most played childhood game - it is broken at points, but huge fun. Spent soooo many hours playing it, and the music was a highlight.
EDIT: Just finished watching, I agree on every point you made. As much as the old games were fun, and they still are, I think developers should always strive to create new experiences while recognising what made older games great. GT4 2.0 would be enjoyable, sure, but GT as a whole is dated in areas that going back to 2004 wouldn’t fix.
In my opinion, rather than trying to recapture the highs of the past, the goal should be trying to make new ones. Something new which drums up interest and elicits responses the same way as, say, GT1 and GT2 did.
I don’t think that means everything that made older games should be ditched, but deconstruct it, see what worked, and why it worked, and then consider if you can infuse it into a new system - if that works best for it.
It may be that a completely new structure is the best way to go, but even if that’s the case, lessons can be drawn from the past.
We can look at GT3 and analyse its progression, then go, “Okay, having multiple tiers of the same event allowed players to keep their car and upgrade as they go, or choose a new one with a higher base performance”.
And then, see if that can be applied in a way that gels with the rest of the system.
I agree with you, I think GT4 is overrated. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad game, not at all - it’s very good. But the AI is really not good, it’s barely aware of your existence, and there are only 6 cars on track. You have to handicap yourself if you’re a decent player to make it a challenge.
GT4 has lots of content but all of it is beholden to slow AI. While it has variety, the actual racing experience isn’t great.
GT3’s AI wasn’t great, either, but in cases like this, I am all for measured rubberbanding (that doesn’t slow the AI down insane amounts when they’re well ahead). Something like Boost Weak in GT7’s custom races. Keeps it relatively close without the overbearing system in the regular races. That would also make grid starts or close rolling file starts more competitive.
The better solution is improved AI, but barring that, a somewhat subtle rubberbanding system is a good band-aid, in my opinion. At least until Sophy or otherwise faster AI is ready.
As you say, GT7 is prime to become the best GT game ever - the best racing game ever. But Polyphony just don’t seem to realise that there’s an issue with the systems they have in place. Or they do, and they don’t mind.
Hell, as players, we can create a much better experience using custom races. That’s the thing. PD could just let the community do the work, if we could share custom races and championships (and if they would fix the 95% AI throttle bug - kicks in after the first corner, where, after the first braking, the AI no longer get to 100% throttle and instead max out at 95-97%).
It shouldn’t have to be on us to do this, but if PD don’t want to make a better career, with a few additions and fixes, the community could make at the very least, a GT League style career. We couldn’t do prize cars, and other progression elements that custom races don’t allow for, but more engaging events are possible.
I hope GT8 takes notes from your critiques and improves the whole experience, making the racing better, and utilising more of the car list with new events (both in general, and for all types of cars). I really enjoyed the video, and have for all that you’ve made. Great work, and thank you for producing them 😊
I still play it to this day.
We already have GT4 2.0. It's called GT5 and GT6. GT6 may lack event variety (without mods) and all its cars are unlocked from the start, but it fixes almost all the issues GT4 has imo (the AI is much better, for one). GT4 was one of my childhood favorites, but I really can't go back to it easily. Not with the PS3 games being better and GT2 and GT3 being far more charming. We definitely need a return to the PS1 era (which includes GT3) of GT games. Those games have qualities that literally no modern racing game has. They're so upbeat and laid back and are incredibly memorable. That's the peak of the series right there. Not GT4. And I say that as somebody who's favorite game in the series is GT6. GT2 is my second favorite and there's so much in that game I wish made a return. The fact that game has mods coming out that add new content is music to my ears. I'm a GT6 modder and we literally can't add new car models or anything like that. But honestly lack of content is not something GT6 has an issue in, it's mostly a lackluster career mode and the fact tons of features ceased to function after the servers shut down. Mods fix all that and more. Great time to be a non-GT7 GT fan lol.
“I didn’t know I wanted Driver: San Francisco, but once I had it, I wanted the shit out of it.”
-Yahtzee Croshaw, Zero Punctuation
easily one of the best video's i've seen about the genre; hit the nail on the head about people not knowing what they want.
keep the content coming please, it's very very well done.
Comparing unbound to older games shows that it has a severe lack of content
Yep. Unbound has far fewer content than even TEST DRIVE LEMANS PS1 somehow!
Unbound doesn't have a lack in content, it's the same racing that has been in the games since the originals
@@emraldmetals7411 The number of race events is tiny
@emraldmetals7411 it has less races than Hear for Christ's sake!
@@GG_1318it always has been, they've just used different names for the same race types which are; drift, drag, circuit, sprint and time trial
NFS is a VERY different case.... The games are mechanically different from the Golden era games... Since Hot Pursuit (2010), we've never had a Black Box NFS because Black Box died soon after Criterion took over and We also lost the Burnout Franchise that same year.
I dropped out because I simply don't like the handling models of post 2010 NFS. Tried picking up NFS 2015, took one corner and immediately went back to the mid 2000s games because that's the era of handling models I actually enjoy playing with. They're loose and yet weighty and very responsive and don't require Mario Kart powersliding (except for Burnout, that got a pass because it was shear chaos).
My two little brothers, who are 10yo and 13yo like games from ps2 and ps3 era more, than the ones, that are made today.
Older one said, that he likes them more, because he can just play them, without creating accounts or having to pay for more content.
I like the idea of the car XP system if it's well implemented.
In the earlier Forza Motorsport games, through a mix of a slower flow of cash and me playing poorly as a kid, I would be stuck with my early cars for a long time as I kept spending what cash I got on upgrading them to lose a bit less, and that gave me a great feeling of progression that the series has lost and it left me getting attached to cars in a way I just don't in the likes of Horizon 3/4/5 where I have a garage full of hundreds of cars I can barely differentiate from one another.
I think the 2000 to 2010 was the golden era for racing games. Not because of nostalgia but because this was a time when developers actually tried new ideas
And these racing games remain the masterpiece
The last Burnout was 2008. The last Midnight Club was also 2008. I think the last NFS game that people liked... was also 2008. The last good Forza was 2011.
It's not even nostalgia, there's straight less franchises and there's a number of channels where people play those older games for the first time and still have a better time with them.
@@JZStudiosonline Forza and Grand Turismo still play well, there's just a lack of effort being put into them. GT7 is genuinely a good game but Forza 8 is a good basis with no content, 6 years development time and there's nothing in the game
@@JZStudiosonlineNFS Undercover was released in 2008. And trust me, no-one likes that game.
@@JZStudiosonlineWhat about Hot Pursuit 2010???
i said this before and I'll say it again...
what people lack is impartiality and possessing a "mature" mindset (ig like a chill person would do) that doesn't just attack someone because blablabla different opinion blablabla... learning to appreciate and being understanding is also important as well
not to mention, people also lack individuality. they usually deviate towards what everyone raves about. i think people should look to themselves personally and think/do what they *REALLY* think/wanna do, regardless of outside opinions.
lastly, innovation and moving forward is important as well. old, past games and stuff should just be old, past stuff (depends. you can improve on it just like how anything can be improved on). old is gold and there are cases that it actually is better, but don't pretend to claim "the best ever" just because there is a nostalgia bias to it. as with all things, there will always be better than everything/everybody in any way. like how we were better in the prehistoric humans or smthng or how graphics have improved than the past..
what we should do is accept change and keep being better as a whole even if it's just being a better, nicer person.
people seem to be afraid of change. change is inevitable, and that can never be *changed* (lol "change" words in both start and end cos it IS the beginning and an end.. or rather, change happens within those.)
the moment people learn to accept others' opinions and still treat each other with respect like how friends do or smsht, as well as look for long-term gains without stepping on others is the moment the world starts to be a better place
Well said
well said
I played gt4 for the first time years afterwards on emulator and its absolutely not overrated. It blows the newer gt's out of the water
Yeah, it's still an amazing game.
The AI can be a very fun challenge or a big pain. The car sounds are atrocious.
If GT4 came out on PC back in 2005, it would have been nodded to perfection.
GT4 was pushing the envelope in several areas but still didn't innovate anything new. I understand both angles
@@gearmeisterwhy "does" innovation matter for a video game? Gran Turismo 1 was highly innovative, it was the first of its genre but widely regarded as one of the weaker titles in the franchise.
GT4 is the best because it was the most well rounded as a package. It had it all and had fewer flaws than any other game in the series. It had lots of content, was technically impressive, had a the best career mode and singleplayer experience and contrary to, it did have an online mode as well.
@@AKK5I it depends on what you're looking for in a video game. Do you want a complete rehash of the previous title with only better graphics or do you want new modes & clever new ideas in the gameplay?
@@AKK5I I mean ideally the first title in a franchise should be the weakest since it's the foundation. Every title should improve on the game to the point that the older titles should be weaker, yet still fun.
I really miss when racing games did not use licensed music! I can't think of anything better than a composer making new original music for a game. I think part of the reason people liked FM4 and GT4 was that they were familiar with more meat in the SP. I miss the day's game sequels improved but did not wildly change or remove things. I strongly feel if you want to make sweeping or huge changes to a franchise you need to a make a spin off like Sport or Horizon.
edit for clarity (lol) and a few additions. Sega GT had the best OST!
- Daytona USA/OutRun/Sega Rally/Initial D Stage series
- Ridge Racer/Ace Driver/Dirt Dash/Wangan Midnight Maximum Tune series
- Enthusia Professional Racing
- Choro-Q
- San Francisco Rush
- Hydro Thunder
- (Cheating a little bit) After Burner/Ace Combat
Here is some examples for racing music that I love to play during when I drive in real life or playing a racing game. The OST that I listed have so much personality behind the games that they are respectfully in that I always play them when I am driving in real life or playing a racing game with all the in-race music is off. It's pains me that the only closest recent example that have good OST music that plays in-game is in NFS heat when you get into a pursuit with the cops. "Day Pursuit" and "Racing for Glory" is my favorite pursuit themes out of the entire NFS games, is it *THAT* good. It have so much drama, weight and high steaks (Hehe!) that I always on the edge of my seat when my heath is low during a pursuit! I really miss that in racing games. OST music makes the games that is in it stand out for me the most! It's amazing!
@@haaxxx9 I don't think I could agree more. I even miss to ultra corny Cruis'n USA. I feel lucky to grow up when OST's were necessary due to limited storage.
@@MADCATMK3103 The limitations for these older games always have a charm put into them like nothing else. Developers have to get creative on how much content they can shove into with the storage media they have at the time and have to (Let it) hit the audience with fantastic and timeless soundtracks that I always enjoy it no matter what! Talking to you is fun! Cheers!
Race Driver GRID ost is worth mentioning too
I’m a classically trained musician, so that is context for my comment here.
I see many of your points not just in racing games or video games, but also in modern music, both popular and classical. I firmly believe that people are looking to consume media of any sort without having to think critically or experience something new. This isn’t a conscious decision, people aren’t lazy, we are just comforted by what we know.
This is the reason that many sports games are just reskins of previous titles, or the F1 games if we are to look at racing games specifically. It’s a proven example of a product that people enjoyed enough to buy, and they’ll probably buy it again, and they do.
It’s the same reason why “all pop music sounds the same” (I know, I know. It doesn’t really but shhh). When music sounds similar to something else that was popular, it’s more likely to be popular itself.
We have a large portion of the gaming community that doesn’t, or can’t, want to bother to think about or learn new systems in games. If it’s a brand new style or incredibly innovative, they might not buy it. Then we have the people who want something new but still like the old style. They buy it, hoping for the new but get the old anyway. By doing things in this matter, they hit the “happy medium” of profits with the least effort. It’s not new, it’s not good, it’s not bad, it’s not old, it’s just easy to digest for a wide audience.
If you start to look at more things in the world like this you’ll start to crave the unique things that still exist.
I always think to myself when I see someone say "make it like X! I don't like Y!"- WHY NOT JUST PLAY X. If you want X so bad, then fucking stick to it.
My "favorite" part of the NFS Unbound soundtrack discourse is how EVERY video plays the same 2 bad songs
(completely ignoring every other track in the game, including the songs by A$AP Rocky, the guy that made an entire song FOR THE GAME)
and compares them to their favorite songs from MW that came from genres that don't match the aesthetic and vibe that Unbound was going for.
yep
The "aesthetic" being gay which is why most people avoided it.
I've personally shared the the same sentiment as you but for the Driver community. For how small the community is they can be quite toxic, especially toward Driver SF for being different then what came before. It was bad enough that one of the Driver reddit mod basically banned people from talking about Driver San Francisco just because they deemed that game "wasn't a proper Driver game" even though they allowed a fan made driver games on there.
I’ve never understood why the older Driver fans don’t like SF. As much as I like the older games in the series especially Driv3r they all had significant issues with them. SF realistically is the best game in the series and just because it’s different from the older ones doesn’t mean it’s bad.
Even if the mod was right (not saying they are) you can't just ban people for being "offtopic", can you? You're supposed to warn them on first offense, or something along those lines. Ban-on-sight is supposedly restricted for people who post literally prohibited content like NSFW on a SFW place, or the horrors.
I feel sometimes, it is a marketing problem. By now, publishers know people expect the same thing if you label the game by the same name. So if they decide to do something too different, it would be better received under a new label. Driver SF, NFS unbound and Project cars 3 are great examples. But it won't happen... Money 🤑
@@EdyAlbertoMSGT3 I might have worded it wrong but what I meant was that the mod prohibited you from making post or anything related to Driver SF not banned you from doing so.
They don't like it because it's has vastly different gameplay
You know what really grinds my gears, is people wanting or imagining a GT4 remake or remaster. I’ve been hearing that statement from the GT community for the last 5 years and it has become too much to think of. Technically it’s already happening all thanks to the modding community making that game even more better with the new Prize car randomiser etc. But seriously can we accept a remake or remaster is never gonna happen officially any day because PD obviously have other priorities. The future of GT7 and the next game.
Not to mention GT5 and GT6 are literally a GT4 remaster yet GT4 fans have never heard of those games or downright hate them for no reason. I swear it's like they're too lazy to emulate or buy a cheap PS3 and play them.
@@SonicBoone56 Not really though is it GT4 in the GT Sport GT7 engine would be incredible.
Great points, I do feel nostalgia goggles and personal bias affetcs the perception of the games strongly in modern games. Even if they remade a game you love, it still wont be the original experience, and people will still not be fully satisfied. And remakes do stagnate the possibility of originality in games: why would you take risks when you can rehash older content that has worked? And if you don't like the new games and want them to be like old games, you can always play the old ones: like everything, games have to change and try to evolve as times go.
You're mentioning that you'd love to have an ultimate racing game: a game like GT3, but with even more improvements, innovation and polish. What kind of improvements and innovations would you expect and where? Should there be new game modes? Should the game design change? What kind of originality or original content it lacks that it needs? As you said "people don't know what they want until you give it to them", I agree, because I would have a hard time to answer these questions myself. Simulation-type games can go only so far with innovation, but arcade games can be anything, even combining other genres like Rocket League does, and I feel that's untapped potential. There used to be a ton games that didn't have licenced cars, but instead they had something unique in their game design, and I feel that has been lost over time. There is room for innovation, creativity and thinking outside the box to bring more potential out of the racing game genre.
This video was thought-provoking and pinpointed things what I've felt about some racing game fans have been blabbering about for the wrong reasons. Great job, would love to see more of deep dives like this!
10:35 As nostalgia goes, gt4 was when I got my first real wheel: the g25 that went along with it. It changed my life. Suddenly a racing game wasn’t like supermario karts or some sheepdung, I was actually steering. That counted for a lot. And let’s be honest, gt4 was loaded with interesting tracks
The best example of the extreme nostalgia bias -> NFS fandom
22:42 YES THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS UP.
This also applies to arcade vs simulator physics tbh. I know it's unrelated to the video about nostalgia bias, but still it can be applied to this comment I'm making. People have come to accept realism as the ONLY vibe that must be implemented in a racing game, which honestly isn't right. This mostly comes from Forza Horizon games, which had simcade levels of handling and people started demanding that ALL arcade racers (like Need for Speed) adopt the same kind of handling.
Nostalgia isn't really going to help innovate things tbh.
Speaking of the Unbound soundtrack issue, all those shitposts are really off putting and are only for clout, clearly missing why it was that in the first place. I'd say Unbound really tried something new, but the community just hates change.
I think the reason racing games have lost their way is the same reason why many movies, TV shows et al have as well.
Trying to appeal to everyone.
Developers should focus on the core audience and make sure the game play is good. People who don't like racing aren't going to get into because of some gimmick, but you will surely lose the fandom when they feel left out.
In my own honest opinion, Nostalgia should be used in something like this; game devs should know what made their older titles great and not just utilize it... But also improve or expound on it and make sure those improvements are good. The feeling of nostalgia will come more on how the game made you feel while playing it instead of the game just having everything from the older games. Games should still make an improvement, making a game entirely for nostalgia feels more like a rerelease instead of a new game, a copy-paste you could say. The older games shouldn't be put on these "holy pedestals" because while they were way more fun, polished and have over all better quality, like you said here, old games are not flawless. There is always room for improvement and another truth is... No one will ever be fully pleased. There will always be demands for "to do this or that". For me, I just want a game that made me feel nostalgia because of how fun it was, not because it felt like the older games i loved. A game that makes me play it for countless hours like how i used to when i was young. A game that is GOOD, and just that, not a game that "its good, but has a big problem." And for those who just want nostalgia, JUST PLAY THE OLDER GAMES THEN, AND IGNORE THE NEW ONES, NOTHING'S STOPPING YOU.
Great Video man!
I didn't have a system capable of playing racing games until around when forza horizon 3 released on PC, so I have little nostalgia for the older titles. That said, I recently went back and emulated horizon 1 and motorsport 4 and I had much more fun playing them than what came after.
The more recent games have certainly improved some aspects that shouldn't be overlooked, the handling and visuals are the obvious examples. It's not just nostalgia that makes the older games seem better though, they're just more enjoyable. They have issues, but they feel like much more complete games.
Same for me with Horizon 3 & 1
I mean, there was a purpose to get to do the events. And even if Horizon 3 was a bit better on the handling aspect, I will much more of Horizon 1 than 3
Thank you. This is the kind of thing I came here to comment. I recently went back and played some PS1 racing games, I never had a PS1 growing up. Ridge Racer Type 4 is IMMACULATE. It is so good I cannot believe. So yeah, it's not just nostalgia, some older games truly were masterpieces, and what came after simply could not match them.
a large part of why racing games tend to favour realism is also because they, in part, serve as advertisements for the brands they feature. Manufacturers most likely want the cars featured to look exactly as they would in real life for the sake of marketing
With regards to the NFS series, and in particular Most Wanted 2005, I’ve always felt that the way the police were handled wasn’t that great. Here are my reasons why…
1. In terms of what tactics the police have at their disposal, there isn’t really anything that consistently keeps the player on their toes, save for the infrequent Rhino SUVs and the occasional rolling roadblock. (The helicopter sometimes drops spike strips and will occasionally try to act as a roadblock in and of itself, but these don’t really do anything to significantly alter the overall experience).
Most of the time, if the player can’t go around something, they can usually just plow through it using Nitrous and the Time Slowing ability.
This issue is further exacerbated by the fact that the game’s method of increasing the difficulty of said pursuits is to continuously spam the player with more and more police vehicles until it either becomes literally impossible to escape, or the game’s frame rate starts to take a hit, which…as I’ll further explain in a bit..does nothing but further bog down the game’s pace and makes achieving even basic forward progress a frustrating chore.
And I find this particular problem to be the most frustrating not only because I know that Black Box were perfectly capable of making police pursuits fun to engage in, as can be seen in Hot Pursuit 2, but also because the solutions are so incredibly simple that it genuinely bewilders me that they didn’t think to implement them.
The solutions in question? Let higher-tier cop cars use Nitrous, give lower-tier cop cars EMP weapons that force the player to zigzag across the road, add roadblocks made up of Rhino SUVs that force the player to change routes on the fly, and let the helicopter drop explosive barrels on the player (or even fire missiles at them).
…I think I’ve made my point here. Let’s move on.
2. Because Most Wanted puts such a great emphasis on the police, the other elements of the game that are just as critical to giving the player an enjoyable experience - things like customization, event type variety, world/track design, etc. - don’t get the same level of attention and care, which led to those elements becoming stagnant or even taking a step backwards in terms of quality.
This can be most easily seen with the range of vehicle customization available to the player: Options that were in previous games, such as neon/underglow, advanced decal and paint job editing, trunk and engine bay customization, etc. - are now largely absent.
One could make the argument that these extra customization options don’t really work well with the specific tone and aesthetic that the game is going for. And while I can see where that argument comes from, it also begs the question: If the devs were so concerned about trying to make sure the various customization options didn’t clash with the established tone and aesthetic they were aiming for…then why let us customize the HUD dials and the window tint? Wouldn’t the inherently more garish/overly sleek and shiny nature of those customization options make them as equally unfit for the game as the rest of the cut customization options? And if so, then why not just remove them outright?
And just so I make myself clear, this lack of attention isn’t just seen in the lack of customization options; It can be seen everywhere in the game.
From the way the roads in the various subdivisions of Rockport all kinda end up blending together and not really presenting any sort of unique driving challenge, to the lack of variety in the types of racing events players can participate in, to the fact that most of the racers on the blacklist - save for like the three or four that actually get some screentime - have basically no chance to establish themselves as characters in their own right…like, it doesn’t take a particularly skilled observer to notice how much the rest of the game has suffered in order to make the cop chases the most interesting part of the game.
And…well…I don’t really have a concrete solution for this problem other than “EA shouldn’t have pushed the devs into making the NFS series an annual release franchise, and should’ve given them the money and manpower to let them make the best product possible”, but it’s a little late for that now. So let’s move on.
3. The way the police are implemented as a game mechanic often clashes with the rest of the game in a way that ends up bringing down the experience as a whole.
For example, despite the fact that the police are supposed to encourage the player to find the best route through Rockport that will allow them to complete their required milestones and make a clean getaway…many of the other regions of Rockport are barred from player access, particularly early on. This makes the task of completing the milestones - an already arduous and time-consuming process - that much more of a hassle, and one that really doesn’t get much better later on, even once the player is given full access to all regions of Rockport.
Speaking of milestones, though…that brings me to the other problem with the police in this game: The player ends up spending more time messing around in pursuits and achieving (or trying to achieve) the various milestones needed to go up against the next blacklist racer than they do participating in the actual racing events.
And considering that most of the racing events don’t tend to have any special flair or hook that would make the player interested in completing them alongside achieving the milestones, especially in the later hours…it’s not exactly a stretch to say that it often feels like the racing part of this racing game is the least enjoyable part of the experience.
…With everything that I’ve said up to this point, I wanna make something very clear: I’m not saying that the police are doomed to always be an inherently detrimental part of NFS games, nor am I saying that I dislike having the police in NFS games on principle; Three of my five favorite NFS games have police in them as a gameplay mechanic.
What I *am* saying is that I really dislike the way the police were handled in Most Wanted 2005 in particular (though Carbon and Undercover are definitely not exempt from this). It could’ve and should’ve been handled better.
But the way that many folks within the racing game community - and especially the NFS community - like to mount Most Wanted on a figurative golden pedestal and claim that it’s a nearly flawless template of perfection that all other future NFS games have to live up to frustrates and worries me.
Cuz if we keep doing this…if we keep treating Most Wanted (and other Black Box-era games of similar design) as unblemished templates of perfection, then we won’t just be dismissing any good ideas that the other games may bring to the table. We’ll also be allowing the very things we claim to love to become and stagnant and ultimately never be allowed to grow and develop into the best version of those things.
i agree
Another brilliant video, I do agree that a studio like PD probably doesn't listen to feedback because of all the mixed messages from the community, still high on the heroin that is nostalgia. GT7 and Forza Motorsport have the potential to really move the genre forward and not just reheat what's come in the past. I'd really love to see how the team at PD came to the decisions they did around game design and what they signed off for launch. Like how they went from curating events for the different types of cars they have, to just a handful. Or putting a full license test system in there, that has no use at all. It's simply baffling...
The entire racing game community is half filled with childish adults who can't accept new thing and move on and can't even get off thier nostalgia goggles and can't respect other people opinions and praising negative opinions who in their right mind would do that to get attention and drama they are just miserable cowards who have nothing to than taking their anger out on everyone for no reason just for clout and this is why some people are leaving the racing game community because of bullcrap likes this something needs to change and yo rof thank you for speaking up about this and making this video because this needs to be said because you are speaking the truth hope many people see this video as a wake up call and as Kratos says WE MUST BE BETTER
Have you ever heard of punctuation marks? And what do you contribute to the discussion? You only complain about those who complain...
@benn8793 First of all, why does my grammar matter to you? And second of all, what you just said there in the last part is literally not true. I was ranting about the racing game community, not complaining.
I'll never understand the discourse behind NFS Unbound's art direction. I think the mixed realism / cartoon aesthetic is really unique and slots it perfectly into a beautifully detailed and arcadey look. Reminds me of when arcade machines were high budget in the 90s.
Pretty much everything in this video is right, but I would like to add something. I think that right now the racing game genre just needs 1 or even a few games that are just well put together (like wreckfest) and then we can start moving on to new and more experimental ideas. As a longtime GT and racing game fan, while your videos did hurt a little, they were sorely needed. I would love to have a conversation with you because we both want the same thing, to get better games.