Found your channel a few days ago and I'm a huge fan! You offer some fantastic insights and your sense of humour, which most channels lack. Keep it up 👏
What do you think the ruins of Utumno would look like in the 4th Age? Do you think there maybe some evil creatures that may dwell in the deep areas of the ruined fortress? Like the nameless things?
There's a good chance that the ruins of Utumno sank under the sea following the destruction of Beleriand. Karen Wynn Fonstad's map puts Utumno roughly about where the Icebay of Forochel is located in the Third Age. Her maps aren't entirely canon, but they're the most accurate things we have. It's definitely possible Nameless Things dwell there.
@@DarthGandalfYT when Easterlings came to Rhovannion, most people forget that, the majority of Northmen went to Dale... only a few merge with Gondor and a few (mostly horsebreeders and some best warriors) go to the Eothed Dale should get way more credit in the films, the real royal blood of Northmen ;) i think u should clarify this if u can :)
Good video. Just a couple of points though; it's arguable that the first great evil of the Third Age to befall Gondor/the Dunedain (if we're not going to count Gladden Fields) would be the First Easterling Invasion which Tarostar/Romendacil I was victorious over (which began at the tail end of his father Ostoher's reign) The Easterlings attacked Gondor for the first time in TA 490 (Ostoher passed away in TA 492, so his son did all the fighting as he was a very old man now, passing away at the age of 270; so he was 268 when the First Easterling Invasion began, with the war lasting several years after his fathers death, so clearly a major conflict) In fairness, of this very little is known though it appears to mainly have focused on repelling the invaders from Northern Ithilien. It was the first hint that peace wasn't assured even in times of peace and prosperity for Gondor. This, obviously in the 5th century TA. But that's more understandable. Secondly, you pronounce 'Regent' as 'REE-gent'/'Rhea-gent', not 'redge-ent'. e.g. 'Ree-gal' for regal, 'ree-gen-cee' for 'Regency' etc. e.g King George IV was Prince Regent of Great Britain in the latter years of George III's reign (his reign ended in 1820, though his son was already coming into monarchal responsibilities early because his father began to suffer from what was regarded as 'madness') Well, it's a long story, but most people at the time thought he'd gone completely mad towards the end, whereas really the poor guy was suffering a lot of medical conditions that were exacerbated, misunderstood and misdiagnosed in the early 19th century, which shows you how fooked most people were if they 'went mad' when really they had something we'd now consider treatable or managable with proper care and assistance, but back then it was like, 'lol he's a fuckin' nutter innit'. The 'Madness of King George' etc. If even the King of England and Great Britain, was capable of being mistreated as a 'lunatic', then you can see how mental health misunderstandings wrecked average joe lives in those times (e.g. if a woman got inconvenient a dude could just call her crazy and send her to an asylum to be force fed or something while he remarried a younger woman, shit happened a lot) Anyway, Prince Regent (later King George IV, officially voted the worst King Britain ever had that one time lol and they weren't wrong in many ways) was the spoilt, womanising, foppish, increasingly gluttonous, tax payers money wasting, decadent, sexually rampant and irresponsible crazy son bitch of the 'Mad King' (he wasn't 'really' mad if we're not being cruel about it, but as far as 19th century folks thought, George III had lost his goddamn mind) Point being to exemplify the word use of 'Regent' in a proper series of contexts. So Britain in that time was considered pretty fucked in terms of it's royalty because George III was a (supposed, maligned and mistreated) 'lunatic' and George IV was a _genuine_ total prick who went around bedding Lords daughters and pissing everyone off, eating 12 course banquets and begging Parliament itself for more money when he went broke (they literally got to the point of telling him no, even as a King, one time) Britain was coming right off the back of the decades of war with France and others in global scale conflict, and wasn't in the financial shape or mood to put up with his bullshit for much longer. To go from a 'lunatic' (supposedly) to a total turd of a spoiled brat of a Prince who got ridiculously fat and possibly had STDs if I remember correctly, wasn't great news for the British people who'd fought through the Napoleonic Wars. He was a national embarrassment and a total laughing stock, that era's Prince of Wales. Oh and, when he died in 1830, nobody really gave a shit and many people just celebrated. Just seen as a tax burden fucking off. George IV - aka 'how not to be a British monarch 101 template for comparison, British monarchy edition 1830-2020' i.e. literal example used by many later British monarchs to never be like him, and 'how not to be a Prince Regent when your dad is being called a total lunatic by the general public and parliament'. He came awfully close to tanking the British monarchy and history hasn't been kind to him. Famously, the Iron Duke, the Duke of Wellington, Sir Arthur Wellesley, was disgusted with the Prince Regent during a visit, where he thought the starter course was the main meal, and was grossed out by the Prince scoffing several more courses. He'd just come back from front line campaigning in the Iberian Peninsula and he'd seen soldiers with their bellies stuck to their backbones, figuratively speaking, then to see him eating like a pig, it annoyed him (and Wellesley himself was a bit of a snob to his men to put it lightly, and called the British common soldier as 'scum') Actual Wellington quotes: "The French system of conscription brings together a fair sample of all classes; ours is composed of the scum of the earth - the mere scum of the earth. It is only wonderful that we should be able to make so much out of them afterwards." - Speaking about soldiers in the British Army, 4 November 1813. "A French army is composed very differently from ours. The conscription calls out a share of every class; no matter whether your son or my son - all must march; but our friends - I may say it in this room - are the very scum of the earth. People talk of their enlisting from their fine military feeling - all stuff - no such thing. Some of our men enlist from having got bastard children - some for minor offences - many more for drink; but you can hardly conceive such a set brought together, and it really is wonderful that we should have made them the fine fellows they are." Jeez Wellington, they died by the thousands for you and the King :| Etonian wanker (oh well, he won 40 battles) If _he_ was angry about the injustice and decadence on display in the palace, you know the Prince Regent was gross. P.S - Castamir the Usurper could learn a thing or two from Robert Baratheon. And by thing or two I just mean a) not dying in the rebellion b) actually being a good usurper. Also, Northern women are fucking hot.
I'm not overly familiar with British history so thanks for that. I wonder if Tolkien loosely based Atanatar II and his two sons on George IV then considering his interest in the history of his homeland. Makes me wonder how many other kings/events might've been ripped or inspired from British history. I know GRR Martin did it a fair amount with A Song of Ice and Fire, but I've never really thought about whether Tolkien did.
@@DarthGandalfYT No worries and I didn't mean to witter on about British monarchs too much for the sake of contextualising the word pronunciation of 'regent' so sorry if that was a bit disproportionate lol I just went off tangent as I tend to and was like, 'fuck it let's do it' lol Nah but in all seriousness the ideas of what inspired Tolkien are so interesting. I recently had a conversation on youtube with someone who was adamant that the Rohirrim were the Americans coming to save the Europeans. I was like, no. Not really. That can be interpreted, but so can a lot of random comparisons. I doubt Tolkien ever seriously saw it that way. Besides the fact the Rohirrim are categorically and even linguistically directly inspired by the Anglo-Saxons, it seems obvious to me that was a sort of 'nice try but no chance' comparison based on a sort of personal bias. I explained that the Gondorians were essentially Byzantines/Eastern Romans and that the Arnorians could be considered similar in a geographic sense to the Western Romans (only, the Arnorians are Northern and the Gondorians Southern, flipping the comparison on it's side so to speak) But beyond that, by far most of _both_ Arnorian and Gondorian imagery derives from a mix of Roman (whether classical or later Medieval) and Ancient Egyptian (e.g. Crown of Gondor being like Pharaonic Crowns, Megalithic structures e.g. Argonath VS Sphinx etc) Those sorts of comparisons. The Siege of Minas Tirith and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is more like the Siege and Relief of Vienna. One of the greatest cavalry charges in history, seemingly impossible odds to be facing for the garrison at Vienna etc. The Dwarves have a lot of Viking/Norse imagery e.g. Runes, Axe stuff etc mixed with some other cultures arguably. Hard to argue with the way the Easterlings literally in their name, evoke Middle Eastern powers such as the Achaemenid Persians, Parthian Persians or others. Easy to forget they were around for as long as Gondor if not slightly longer in some form, and certainly had Gondor in their sights by the 5th century TA. So, they were well-organised and savvy enough with war to feel confident enough to just openly attack Gondor. They lost, but it was a long war. Many wars would follow over the ages, most we probably never were going to have that much detail on sadly. 3,000 or so years sees a lot happen. I'd like to see the changes the Easterlings went through in more detail, and Tolkien did show them due respect with many victories, specifically regarding Third Age Easterlings as having the 2nd best weapons and armour among remaining human factions behind only Gondor (narrowly) and giving them the task of dealing with Dale and Erebor in the War of the Ring. Oh and, the Haradrim could be likened to North African factions e.g. the Fatimid Dynasty or with the Mumukil the Carthaginians. But for the most part I think they are most alike the North African Arab powers of later times e.g. also the Berbers, Mamluks and Arabians in general. Certainly a very crusader like vibe with many of the Gondorian campaigns to the South. The comparisons can only go so far but there you go. As for the Rohirrim going to save the Gondorians, that'd be like the idealised form of the English in Tolkien's writing going to save the Romans from the Ottomans, technically (ironically, the Varangian Guard, an elite Byzantine unit of royal guard mercenaries, was recruited from Viking and Anglo-Saxon troops; many died for various Byzantine Kings over the years, even more ironically, sometimes against the Normans - and some literally fought the Normans in the Near East and near Constantinople, after having survived Hastings 1066) Sometimes real history is stranger than fiction. There was I believe a unit of Varangians alongside Emperor Constantine XI when he went down fighting in the Fall of Constantinople 1453. Only, that time, of course, the city fell and the end of the last true bastion of any Romans, fell (with some echoes and legacies to say the least, lingering on) With British history in particular I am not sure. I am sure most of his comparisons predate modern British history in terms of 1707 Act of Union if we're going on that figure i.e. last three and a bit centuries/313 years. There can be many comparisons and inferences made. However, as I told the other person I was chatting to on youtube on another video, I think that Tolkien himself disliked allegorical comparisons, especially of the religious variety, though he did of course infuse his work with religious symbolism and messaging. He was a devout Christian. However, I would regard some more obvious British related comparisons to be worth mentioning. - e.g. the Dead Marshes are outright inspired by the horrors of the Somme, No Mans Land and the Western Front in WWI, in which Tolkien fought. - the Hobbits are essentially based on rural 18th century British (particularly rustic English) folk with pre-industrial traits and little industry of their own. They are more medieval in their resources and capabilities, yet are dressed more like 18th century and 19th century English villagers in rural, agrarian areas. All that Shire lifestyle is taken straight from the idylls of rural life in the way Tolkien idealised it himself. He loved trees and loathed industrialisation, especially deforestation. - Isengard is directly inspired by factories and mills in and around Birmingham in England, around which Tolkien played as a child when he lived in the city for a time, and obviously the harsh industrialism of Isengard is as much a commentary on anti-industry sentiment in his writing, as it is held in contrast to the retrograde and deliberately nostalgic image of the rural Shire. The 'Dark satanic mills' of English poetry like Jerusalem, comes to mind. William Blake (English writer and poet, during the Napoleonic Era) was more of a religious, 'of his time', conservative reactionary to the encroachment of the industries into the countryside. When he wrote 'Dark Satanic Mills', he was referencing the art of Dante's Inferno, to describe hellish smoke, industry and ruination. I wonder, indeed, if Tolkien had such things in mind when developing Isengard. He certainly would have known that song off by heart in those days, trust me on that lol (long established as English poetry co-opted by the British Imperials as a patriotic song, though with underlying proto-socialist messaging perhaps lost on some) Anyhow... There are plenty of screw up monarchs in British and English history, and otherwise very good ones. Richard I Lionheart was a great warrior King, and could be compared in some regards to some of the Gondorian or Arnorian Kings. However, it's not quite that straightforward of course. Tolkien was inspired by history, not beholden to it. Fili and Kili falling at Thorin's side, is directly inspired by a battle in Anglo-Saxon history (I forget the name) where a King's two ''sister-sons'' (aka nephews) die side by side in battle. Tolkien literally refers to them as Thorin's sister-sons at least once, as a subtle nod to the historical inspiration. Just take a cursory glance at early English King's (Anglo-Saxon) names, and you'll see a striking resemblance to the Rohirrim. e.g. King Ealhmund of the Kingdom of Kent, King Æthelwulf of Wessex, King Æthelstan of Kent, Æthelred of Wessex and so on and so forth. The 11th King of Rohan, Brytta Léofa, has a name somewhat visually similar to King Beorhtric of Wessex, and Brytta's name literally means 'Beloved Distributor/Distributor Beloved" in Old English in the canonical etymology. Therefore, Tolkien was literally using Old English for a lot of Rohirric words. Brytta = Distributor, Leofa = Beloved. His son Walda also = Old English for 'Ruler' etc the lists of comparisons continue. e.g. 'Folca' means 'of the folk' in Old English. There are even more compelling similarities in the names with some other Anglo-Saxon Kings e.g. Ælfwine of Deira (Elfwine the Fair is literally Eomer's son in Tolkien lol) Ealdred I of Bamburgh, sounds an awful lot like Theodred, son of Theoden. Even Grima Wormtongue's name is rooted in Old English etymology. In terms of direct British comparisons, there'll be many more, but Tolkien used a lot of different inspirations and by no means just British of course.
@@DarthGandalfYT P.S - G.R.R Martin's ASOIAF was built by inspiration on British, French, North African, general European, African and Asian history in different aspects. Depends how deeply into it you go. The Valyrians are best compared to the Romans, though even they didn't have Dragons and purple eyes lol but of course fantasy takes over from inspiration after a point. Generally, they are a more Mediterranean climate group of people, and like the Romans had humble beginnings (villages amid the Seven Hills of Rome in Rome's case, next to fly infested bogs, hardly what many would in hindsight expect could be the early basis for a future Hyperpower spanning most of the then known world and around 5 million sqkm) In the case of the Valyrians, it was shepherds poking around the volcanic hills around the Valyrian Peninsula, and discovering dragons and dragon eggs (and somehow taming them, perhaps with magical assistance from someone or something else; or just figuring out how to rear the hatchlings safely and bonding with them over time, it's left deliberately unclear) The Andals are basically G.R.R Martin's scarcely veiled rip-off of the Anglo-Saxons, the First Men are basically Bronze Age and bronze wielding celts/Celto-Iberians, the Targaryens are effectively a cadet branch of the Valyrian Freehold so sort of like a relic of the Roman Empire, mutated; however, the Targaryen Conquest is made deliberately to echo the Norman Conquest. The decisive Norman weapon was their war horses, but the Targaryens had something a bit more dangerous. The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros = basically the main Seven Kingdoms/Heptarchy of Anglo-Saxon England. The ancient Ghiscari Empire can be likened to a mix of Macedonian, Persian and Babylonian influences, though is deliberately unique and amorphous in some ways. Somewhat like Assyrians, somewhat like Mesopotamians, and very ancient, but hard to directly compare exactly. Maybe even the Hittites would be a fair comparison. The 'lockstep lgions of Old Ghis' are basically Macedonian Phalanxes but they are clearly, way, way older than Old Macedon in real history. The Rhoynar and the Dornish derived from them, are more like a mix between Iberians and North Africans e.g. Libyans and Carthaginians/Tunisians. The Westerlands and especially House Lannister are basically High to Late Medieval House Lancaster crossed with the 'Dark Ages' and Early Medieval Anglo-Saxon House of Wessex (with healthy doses of Kingdom of England in general, 'three lions' vibes; also, two lions for the Duchy of Normandy) The Riverlands always make me think of parts of England and Wales, especially the Fens, Norfolk Broads, Kent and the Somerset Levels. Wetlands in these places. But many rivers flow in the UK. The North basically = Northumbrian Kingdom mixed with War of the Roses House of York. Northern England in general, East and West. Speaking of the War of the Roses, that's basically the inspiration to a hell of a lot in ASOIAF at least in the initial conflicts shown e.g. War of the Five Kings. There are direct comparisons for Joffrey, Robert Baratheon, Stannis, Cersei, Eddard etc these are often covered by enthusiastic historical documentaries like, 'The REAL Game of Thrones etc' riding the hype waves of GoT when it was actually good lol RIP that special time when history documentaries were being pumped out with renewed vigour because of GoT inspiring historians (and tv executives) to make programmes about bloody Medieval history, milking the hype and catching new audiences as they should lol) RIP Season 1-4 gone but not forgotten. S5-8, well, a hit and miss mess but generally the latter. As for 'THE BELLS' that can fook off.
Great video To be honest, what is sad about this war is it weakened Gondor, it should not have happened, and both sides initially had good greviances. Still, nice video!
I mean, it was a good match, it strengthened the Alliance with the Northmen, it gained their loyalty directly to his line etc. Had Gondor's Noble's just accepted it, it would have strenghtened them greatly, unlike a match to one of their daughters which wouldn't have gained anything for Gondor that it didn't already have. Their arguments that it would weaken the line, and the blood, were proven wrong, why couldn't they have just waited to see... It's certainly not his fault that his cousin was greedy for power (let's face it the pure blood issue was secondary for Castamir) and certain other Gondorians were racist.
nation (n.) c. 1300, nacioun, "a race of people, large group of people with common ancestry and language," from Old French nacion "birth, rank; descendants, relatives; country, homeland" (12c.) and directly from Latin nationem (nominative natio) "birth, origin; breed, stock, kind, species; race of people, tribe," literally "that which has been born," from natus, past participle of nasci "be born" (Old Latin gnasci), from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups. Not racist.
@@Krawn_ um, what? What's that have to do with what I said? The Gondorian 'Pure-bloods' were of the Numenorian race and hated the influence of the North-men who were of the 'Middle-Men' race for no reason other than they were different, thus they were racist. The Nation of Gondor wasn't made up of one race alone, so what you said seems irrelevant...?
I would say so. The existence of Castamir and the fact that he had plenty of followers indicates that not all Men of Gondor were good. They, like all Men, were not immune to corruption or immoral acts, no matter how learned or noble they could be. However, I'd say it was probably the exception rather than the rule.
We don't know the exact allegiances of each provinces, but it is mentioned that the peoples of the coast supported Castamir, whereas the northern regions (Ithilien, Anorien, and Calenardhon) supported Eldacar. Belfalas may have supported Eldacar, but there's no real evidence for it.
@@DarthGandalfYT it's really interesting to think about it, I guess they could had supported Castamir, after all, they still had Adunaic names at the end of the third age
@@xaviermontesdeoca2440 Thanks for the info! I was under the impression that Imrahil is a Sindarin name, but apparently it is not according to Tolkiengateway respectively Appendix E. Appendix E is unfortunately abridged in the translation I have! Perhaps time to buy the Appendices in English after all.
Call me a racist in this "roleplay", but if I am one of the pure-blooded Dunedain/Numenorean at that time, I will be a traditionalist, not knowing the future of the 3rd age, the fall of Arnor, Rohan, the return of Sauron, etc... you know, just like a person who lives in his time, like we do today in 2020. I would probably side with Castamir, but only in the early rebellion until he gets a seat on the throne. My reason is that Northern men are just that, men, not special because they clearly don't have that gift, which makes them unequal to me in that respect, a Numenorean (a higher human), and of course I would be proud of my pure bloodline to some degree, so to know that there will be a king who shares the blood of normal men would be troubling as it would break tradition and simply unthinkable... Still, I'm sure I won't be a jerk, like the kind of proud Numenorian who despises normal men, speaks ill/disgusted by them, just a plain racist, I'll still show them respect, like I show respect for dwarves and elves or fellow Numenorians in a lower position (so I think calling me or this kind of Numenorian - which I'm sure exists during the Kinstrife, a racist is not right). But after that, I would gradually rebel against Castamir as he has proven not to be a good ruler, and then in the end, after seeing how things work, the mixed lineage for a king is not so important, pretty much I'll be a reasonable Numenorian.
"Don't let facts get in the way of a good scapegoat"
I love that line. Great video as always.
One of the most entertaining LotR channels on YT. Keep it up
Agreed
He goes too fast. Hard to keep up imo. I love lotr but not sure where to begin. Any videos to recommend? This was too tough to watch.
@@MrTheChamplol watch them in the order they came out. That is the simplest way.
They did it to themselves. Sauron must have been laughing to himself at their foolishness.
Exactly
“Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake” - Napoleon "Sauron" Bonaparte
@@DarthGandalfYTI can't believe you managed to make Sauron even more evil 💀
Found your channel a few days ago and I'm a huge fan!
You offer some fantastic insights and your sense of humour, which most channels lack.
Keep it up 👏
What do you think the ruins of Utumno would look like in the 4th Age? Do you think there maybe some evil creatures that may dwell in the deep areas of the ruined fortress? Like the nameless things?
There's a good chance that the ruins of Utumno sank under the sea following the destruction of Beleriand. Karen Wynn Fonstad's map puts Utumno roughly about where the Icebay of Forochel is located in the Third Age. Her maps aren't entirely canon, but they're the most accurate things we have. It's definitely possible Nameless Things dwell there.
3:54 This is the real reason for the kinstrife, and this is what Tolkien should have wrote.
Lol
Lmap
Nice short video!!👍
I'm bingeing on these vids!
excelent man, very nice video well told
u should talk about Rhovannion history more often, youre one of the first, new lore :)
There's definitely more to come on Rhovanion or as I call it - Rohan v0.5.
@@DarthGandalfYT when Easterlings came to Rhovannion, most people forget that, the majority of Northmen went to Dale... only a few merge with Gondor and a few (mostly horsebreeders and some best warriors) go to the Eothed
Dale should get way more credit in the films, the real royal blood of Northmen ;)
i think u should clarify this if u can :)
Somebody get this man more views
Good video. Just a couple of points though; it's arguable that the first great evil of the Third Age to befall Gondor/the Dunedain (if we're not going to count Gladden Fields) would be the First Easterling Invasion which Tarostar/Romendacil I was victorious over (which began at the tail end of his father Ostoher's reign)
The Easterlings attacked Gondor for the first time in TA 490 (Ostoher passed away in TA 492, so his son did all the fighting as he was a very old man now, passing away at the age of 270; so he was 268 when the First Easterling Invasion began, with the war lasting several years after his fathers death, so clearly a major conflict)
In fairness, of this very little is known though it appears to mainly have focused on repelling the invaders from Northern Ithilien. It was the first hint that peace wasn't assured even in times of peace and prosperity for Gondor. This, obviously in the 5th century TA. But that's more understandable.
Secondly, you pronounce 'Regent' as 'REE-gent'/'Rhea-gent', not 'redge-ent'. e.g. 'Ree-gal' for regal, 'ree-gen-cee' for 'Regency' etc. e.g King George IV was Prince Regent of Great Britain in the latter years of George III's reign (his reign ended in 1820, though his son was already coming into monarchal responsibilities early because his father began to suffer from what was regarded as 'madness')
Well, it's a long story, but most people at the time thought he'd gone completely mad towards the end, whereas really the poor guy was suffering a lot of medical conditions that were exacerbated, misunderstood and misdiagnosed in the early 19th century, which shows you how fooked most people were if they 'went mad' when really they had something we'd now consider treatable or managable with proper care and assistance, but back then it was like, 'lol he's a fuckin' nutter innit'.
The 'Madness of King George' etc. If even the King of England and Great Britain, was capable of being mistreated as a 'lunatic', then you can see how mental health misunderstandings wrecked average joe lives in those times (e.g. if a woman got inconvenient a dude could just call her crazy and send her to an asylum to be force fed or something while he remarried a younger woman, shit happened a lot)
Anyway, Prince Regent (later King George IV, officially voted the worst King Britain ever had that one time lol and they weren't wrong in many ways) was the spoilt, womanising, foppish, increasingly gluttonous, tax payers money wasting, decadent, sexually rampant and irresponsible crazy son bitch of the 'Mad King' (he wasn't 'really' mad if we're not being cruel about it, but as far as 19th century folks thought, George III had lost his goddamn mind) Point being to exemplify the word use of 'Regent' in a proper series of contexts.
So Britain in that time was considered pretty fucked in terms of it's royalty because George III was a (supposed, maligned and mistreated) 'lunatic' and George IV was a _genuine_ total prick who went around bedding Lords daughters and pissing everyone off, eating 12 course banquets and begging Parliament itself for more money when he went broke (they literally got to the point of telling him no, even as a King, one time) Britain was coming right off the back of the decades of war with France and others in global scale conflict, and wasn't in the financial shape or mood to put up with his bullshit for much longer.
To go from a 'lunatic' (supposedly) to a total turd of a spoiled brat of a Prince who got ridiculously fat and possibly had STDs if I remember correctly, wasn't great news for the British people who'd fought through the Napoleonic Wars. He was a national embarrassment and a total laughing stock, that era's Prince of Wales. Oh and, when he died in 1830, nobody really gave a shit and many people just celebrated. Just seen as a tax burden fucking off.
George IV - aka 'how not to be a British monarch 101 template for comparison, British monarchy edition 1830-2020' i.e. literal example used by many later British monarchs to never be like him, and 'how not to be a Prince Regent when your dad is being called a total lunatic by the general public and parliament'. He came awfully close to tanking the British monarchy and history hasn't been kind to him.
Famously, the Iron Duke, the Duke of Wellington, Sir Arthur Wellesley, was disgusted with the Prince Regent during a visit, where he thought the starter course was the main meal, and was grossed out by the Prince scoffing several more courses.
He'd just come back from front line campaigning in the Iberian Peninsula and he'd seen soldiers with their bellies stuck to their backbones, figuratively speaking, then to see him eating like a pig, it annoyed him (and Wellesley himself was a bit of a snob to his men to put it lightly, and called the British common soldier as 'scum')
Actual Wellington quotes:
"The French system of conscription brings together a fair sample of all classes; ours is composed of the scum of the earth - the mere scum of the earth. It is only wonderful that we should be able to make so much out of them afterwards."
- Speaking about soldiers in the British Army, 4 November 1813.
"A French army is composed very differently from ours. The conscription calls out a share of every class; no matter whether your son or my son - all must march; but our friends - I may say it in this room - are the very scum of the earth.
People talk of their enlisting from their fine military feeling - all stuff - no such thing. Some of our men enlist from having got bastard children - some for minor offences - many more for drink; but you can hardly conceive such a set brought together, and it really is wonderful that we should have made them the fine fellows they are."
Jeez Wellington, they died by the thousands for you and the King :| Etonian wanker (oh well, he won 40 battles)
If _he_ was angry about the injustice and decadence on display in the palace, you know the Prince Regent was gross.
P.S - Castamir the Usurper could learn a thing or two from Robert Baratheon. And by thing or two I just mean a) not dying in the rebellion b) actually being a good usurper.
Also, Northern women are fucking hot.
I'm not overly familiar with British history so thanks for that. I wonder if Tolkien loosely based Atanatar II and his two sons on George IV then considering his interest in the history of his homeland. Makes me wonder how many other kings/events might've been ripped or inspired from British history. I know GRR Martin did it a fair amount with A Song of Ice and Fire, but I've never really thought about whether Tolkien did.
@@DarthGandalfYT No worries and I didn't mean to witter on about British monarchs too much for the sake of contextualising the word pronunciation of 'regent' so sorry if that was a bit disproportionate lol I just went off tangent as I tend to and was like, 'fuck it let's do it' lol Nah but in all seriousness the ideas of what inspired Tolkien are so interesting.
I recently had a conversation on youtube with someone who was adamant that the Rohirrim were the Americans coming to save the Europeans. I was like, no. Not really. That can be interpreted, but so can a lot of random comparisons. I doubt Tolkien ever seriously saw it that way. Besides the fact the Rohirrim are categorically and even linguistically directly inspired by the Anglo-Saxons, it seems obvious to me that was a sort of 'nice try but no chance' comparison based on a sort of personal bias.
I explained that the Gondorians were essentially Byzantines/Eastern Romans and that the Arnorians could be considered similar in a geographic sense to the Western Romans (only, the Arnorians are Northern and the Gondorians Southern, flipping the comparison on it's side so to speak) But beyond that, by far most of _both_ Arnorian and Gondorian imagery derives from a mix of Roman (whether classical or later Medieval) and Ancient Egyptian (e.g. Crown of Gondor being like Pharaonic Crowns, Megalithic structures e.g. Argonath VS Sphinx etc) Those sorts of comparisons. The Siege of Minas Tirith and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is more like the Siege and Relief of Vienna.
One of the greatest cavalry charges in history, seemingly impossible odds to be facing for the garrison at Vienna etc.
The Dwarves have a lot of Viking/Norse imagery e.g. Runes, Axe stuff etc mixed with some other cultures arguably.
Hard to argue with the way the Easterlings literally in their name, evoke Middle Eastern powers such as the Achaemenid Persians, Parthian Persians or others. Easy to forget they were around for as long as Gondor if not slightly longer in some form, and certainly had Gondor in their sights by the 5th century TA. So, they were well-organised and savvy enough with war to feel confident enough to just openly attack Gondor.
They lost, but it was a long war. Many wars would follow over the ages, most we probably never were going to have that much detail on sadly.
3,000 or so years sees a lot happen. I'd like to see the changes the Easterlings went through in more detail, and Tolkien did show them due respect with many victories, specifically regarding Third Age Easterlings as having the 2nd best weapons and armour among remaining human factions behind only Gondor (narrowly) and giving them the task of dealing with Dale and Erebor in the War of the Ring.
Oh and, the Haradrim could be likened to North African factions e.g. the Fatimid Dynasty or with the Mumukil the Carthaginians. But for the most part I think they are most alike the North African Arab powers of later times e.g. also the Berbers, Mamluks and Arabians in general.
Certainly a very crusader like vibe with many of the Gondorian campaigns to the South. The comparisons can only go so far but there you go.
As for the Rohirrim going to save the Gondorians, that'd be like the idealised form of the English in Tolkien's writing going to save the Romans from the Ottomans, technically (ironically, the Varangian Guard, an elite Byzantine unit of royal guard mercenaries, was recruited from Viking and Anglo-Saxon troops; many died for various Byzantine Kings over the years, even more ironically, sometimes against the Normans - and some literally fought the Normans in the Near East and near Constantinople, after having survived Hastings 1066)
Sometimes real history is stranger than fiction. There was I believe a unit of Varangians alongside Emperor Constantine XI when he went down fighting in the Fall of Constantinople 1453.
Only, that time, of course, the city fell and the end of the last true bastion of any Romans, fell (with some echoes and legacies to say the least, lingering on)
With British history in particular I am not sure. I am sure most of his comparisons predate modern British history in terms of 1707 Act of Union if we're going on that figure i.e. last three and a bit centuries/313 years. There can be many comparisons and inferences made. However, as I told the other person I was chatting to on youtube on another video, I think that Tolkien himself disliked allegorical comparisons, especially of the religious variety, though he did of course infuse his work with religious symbolism and messaging. He was a devout Christian. However, I would regard some more obvious British related comparisons to be worth mentioning.
- e.g. the Dead Marshes are outright inspired by the horrors of the Somme, No Mans Land and the Western Front in WWI, in which Tolkien fought.
- the Hobbits are essentially based on rural 18th century British (particularly rustic English) folk with pre-industrial traits and little industry of their own. They are more medieval in their resources and capabilities, yet are dressed more like 18th century and 19th century English villagers in rural, agrarian areas. All that Shire lifestyle is taken straight from the idylls of rural life in the way Tolkien idealised it himself. He loved trees and loathed industrialisation, especially deforestation.
- Isengard is directly inspired by factories and mills in and around Birmingham in England, around which Tolkien played as a child when he lived in the city for a time, and obviously the harsh industrialism of Isengard is as much a commentary on anti-industry sentiment in his writing, as it is held in contrast to the retrograde and deliberately nostalgic image of the rural Shire. The 'Dark satanic mills' of English poetry like Jerusalem, comes to mind. William Blake (English writer and poet, during the Napoleonic Era) was more of a religious, 'of his time', conservative reactionary to the encroachment of the industries into the countryside.
When he wrote 'Dark Satanic Mills', he was referencing the art of Dante's Inferno, to describe hellish smoke, industry and ruination. I wonder, indeed, if Tolkien had such things in mind when developing Isengard. He certainly would have known that song off by heart in those days, trust me on that lol (long established as English poetry co-opted by the British Imperials as a patriotic song, though with underlying proto-socialist messaging perhaps lost on some) Anyhow...
There are plenty of screw up monarchs in British and English history, and otherwise very good ones. Richard I Lionheart was a great warrior King, and could be compared in some regards to some of the Gondorian or Arnorian Kings. However, it's not quite that straightforward of course. Tolkien was inspired by history, not beholden to it.
Fili and Kili falling at Thorin's side, is directly inspired by a battle in Anglo-Saxon history (I forget the name) where a King's two ''sister-sons'' (aka nephews) die side by side in battle. Tolkien literally refers to them as Thorin's sister-sons at least once, as a subtle nod to the historical inspiration.
Just take a cursory glance at early English King's (Anglo-Saxon) names, and you'll see a striking resemblance to the Rohirrim. e.g. King Ealhmund of the Kingdom of Kent, King Æthelwulf of Wessex, King Æthelstan of Kent, Æthelred of Wessex and so on and so forth.
The 11th King of Rohan, Brytta Léofa, has a name somewhat visually similar to King Beorhtric of Wessex, and Brytta's name literally means 'Beloved Distributor/Distributor Beloved" in Old English in the canonical etymology.
Therefore, Tolkien was literally using Old English for a lot of Rohirric words.
Brytta = Distributor, Leofa = Beloved.
His son Walda also = Old English for 'Ruler' etc the lists of comparisons continue.
e.g. 'Folca' means 'of the folk' in Old English.
There are even more compelling similarities in the names with some other Anglo-Saxon Kings e.g. Ælfwine of Deira (Elfwine the Fair is literally Eomer's son in Tolkien lol)
Ealdred I of Bamburgh, sounds an awful lot like Theodred, son of Theoden.
Even Grima Wormtongue's name is rooted in Old English etymology.
In terms of direct British comparisons, there'll be many more, but Tolkien used a lot of different inspirations and by no means just British of course.
@@DarthGandalfYT P.S - G.R.R Martin's ASOIAF was built by inspiration on British, French, North African, general European, African and Asian history in different aspects. Depends how deeply into it you go. The Valyrians are best compared to the Romans, though even they didn't have Dragons and purple eyes lol but of course fantasy takes over from inspiration after a point.
Generally, they are a more Mediterranean climate group of people, and like the Romans had humble beginnings (villages amid the Seven Hills of Rome in Rome's case, next to fly infested bogs, hardly what many would in hindsight expect could be the early basis for a future Hyperpower spanning most of the then known world and around 5 million sqkm)
In the case of the Valyrians, it was shepherds poking around the volcanic hills around the Valyrian Peninsula, and discovering dragons and dragon eggs (and somehow taming them, perhaps with magical assistance from someone or something else; or just figuring out how to rear the hatchlings safely and bonding with them over time, it's left deliberately unclear)
The Andals are basically G.R.R Martin's scarcely veiled rip-off of the Anglo-Saxons, the First Men are basically Bronze Age and bronze wielding celts/Celto-Iberians, the Targaryens are effectively a cadet branch of the Valyrian Freehold so sort of like a relic of the Roman Empire, mutated; however, the Targaryen Conquest is made deliberately to echo the Norman Conquest. The decisive Norman weapon was their war horses, but the Targaryens had something a bit more dangerous. The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros = basically the main Seven Kingdoms/Heptarchy of Anglo-Saxon England.
The ancient Ghiscari Empire can be likened to a mix of Macedonian, Persian and Babylonian influences, though is deliberately unique and amorphous in some ways.
Somewhat like Assyrians, somewhat like Mesopotamians, and very ancient, but hard to directly compare exactly. Maybe even the Hittites would be a fair comparison. The 'lockstep lgions of Old Ghis' are basically Macedonian Phalanxes but they are clearly, way, way older than Old Macedon in real history. The Rhoynar and the Dornish derived from them, are more like a mix between Iberians and North Africans e.g. Libyans and Carthaginians/Tunisians.
The Westerlands and especially House Lannister are basically High to Late Medieval House Lancaster crossed with the 'Dark Ages' and Early Medieval Anglo-Saxon House of Wessex (with healthy doses of Kingdom of England in general, 'three lions' vibes; also, two lions for the Duchy of Normandy)
The Riverlands always make me think of parts of England and Wales, especially the Fens, Norfolk Broads, Kent and the Somerset Levels. Wetlands in these places. But many rivers flow in the UK.
The North basically = Northumbrian Kingdom mixed with War of the Roses House of York. Northern England in general, East and West.
Speaking of the War of the Roses, that's basically the inspiration to a hell of a lot in ASOIAF at least in the initial conflicts shown e.g. War of the Five Kings.
There are direct comparisons for Joffrey, Robert Baratheon, Stannis, Cersei, Eddard etc these are often covered by enthusiastic historical documentaries like, 'The REAL Game of Thrones etc' riding the hype waves of GoT when it was actually good lol
RIP that special time when history documentaries were being pumped out with renewed vigour because of GoT inspiring historians (and tv executives) to make programmes about bloody Medieval history, milking the hype and catching new audiences as they should lol)
RIP Season 1-4 gone but not forgotten. S5-8, well, a hit and miss mess but generally the latter.
As for 'THE BELLS' that can fook off.
Great video
To be honest, what is sad about this war is it weakened Gondor, it should not have happened, and both sides initially had good greviances.
Still, nice video!
Keep up the videos as they are great and I love LOTR
Watched it 3 times.
I mean, it was a good match, it strengthened the Alliance with the Northmen, it gained their loyalty directly to his line etc. Had Gondor's Noble's just accepted it, it would have strenghtened them greatly, unlike a match to one of their daughters which wouldn't have gained anything for Gondor that it didn't already have. Their arguments that it would weaken the line, and the blood, were proven wrong, why couldn't they have just waited to see...
It's certainly not his fault that his cousin was greedy for power (let's face it the pure blood issue was secondary for Castamir) and certain other Gondorians were racist.
nation (n.)
c. 1300, nacioun, "a race of people, large group of people with common ancestry and
language," from Old French nacion "birth, rank; descendants, relatives; country,
homeland" (12c.) and directly from Latin nationem (nominative natio) "birth, origin; breed,
stock, kind, species; race of people, tribe," literally "that which has been born," from natus,
past participle of nasci "be born" (Old Latin gnasci), from PIE root *gene- "give birth,
beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups. Not racist.
@@Krawn_ um, what? What's that have to do with what I said? The Gondorian 'Pure-bloods' were of the Numenorian race and hated the influence of the North-men who were of the 'Middle-Men' race for no reason other than they were different, thus they were racist. The Nation of Gondor wasn't made up of one race alone, so what you said seems irrelevant...?
Nice video
Tolkien was ridiculously genius.
Awesome but can you do the siege of utumno
That may be a war crime 😂😂
Do you think that the men of gondor did slay civilians?
I would say so. The existence of Castamir and the fact that he had plenty of followers indicates that not all Men of Gondor were good. They, like all Men, were not immune to corruption or immoral acts, no matter how learned or noble they could be. However, I'd say it was probably the exception rather than the rule.
@@DarthGandalfYT i agree, but it's hard to me imagine Romendacil II or Hyarmendacil I ordering the killing of women and children
@@anti-liberalismo I don't think they would've ordered it, but they also can't control every soldier under their command.
Wait a minute, Belfalas was part of the rebelion? Really?
We don't know the exact allegiances of each provinces, but it is mentioned that the peoples of the coast supported Castamir, whereas the northern regions (Ithilien, Anorien, and Calenardhon) supported Eldacar. Belfalas may have supported Eldacar, but there's no real evidence for it.
@@DarthGandalfYT it's really interesting to think about it, I guess they could had supported Castamir, after all, they still had Adunaic names at the end of the third age
@@xaviermontesdeoca2440 Interesting, which names do you mean for example? I cannot remember named characters from Belfalas
@@Crafty_Spirit all the named princes of Dol Amroth have Adunaic names, Imrazor, Imrahil, Adhrahil
@@xaviermontesdeoca2440 Thanks for the info! I was under the impression that Imrahil is a Sindarin name, but apparently it is not according to Tolkiengateway respectively Appendix E.
Appendix E is unfortunately abridged in the translation I have! Perhaps time to buy the Appendices in English after all.
Call me a racist in this "roleplay", but if I am one of the pure-blooded Dunedain/Numenorean at that time, I will be a traditionalist, not knowing the future of the 3rd age, the fall of Arnor, Rohan, the return of Sauron, etc... you know, just like a person who lives in his time, like we do today in 2020. I would probably side with Castamir, but only in the early rebellion until he gets a seat on the throne. My reason is that Northern men are just that, men, not special because they clearly don't have that gift, which makes them unequal to me in that respect, a Numenorean (a higher human), and of course I would be proud of my pure bloodline to some degree, so to know that there will be a king who shares the blood of normal men would be troubling as it would break tradition and simply unthinkable... Still, I'm sure I won't be a jerk, like the kind of proud Numenorian who despises normal men, speaks ill/disgusted by them, just a plain racist, I'll still show them respect, like I show respect for dwarves and elves or fellow Numenorians in a lower position (so I think calling me or this kind of Numenorian - which I'm sure exists during the Kinstrife, a racist is not right). But after that, I would gradually rebel against Castamir as he has proven not to be a good ruler, and then in the end, after seeing how things work, the mixed lineage for a king is not so important, pretty much I'll be a reasonable Numenorian.
U are def right. I would probably do the same thing.
2nd comment