High tens of thousands I would suspect. They certainly took a lot of the pressure off Eriador, but I don't think the Misty Mountains were too threatening to either Rohan or Gondor. Mountain Orcs were disorganised and fought each other just as much as they fought other peoples, and they usually weren't too keen on leaving their tunnels unless they had a very good reason.
And just some decades before the orcs began to attack Eriador until the Dunedain drove them back to the mountains. If Sauron could direct them to attack the south then maybe Gondor and Rohan might have some trouble during the War of the Ring
@@joaqu7002 I mean, the Orcs were scattered all over the place. If the Dwarves had concentrated their entire force on Gundabad and its hinterlands, they probably could've reclaimed it. And the Iron Hill's would've helped out most likely.
There was actually a really good post on r/tolkienfans recently that posed this exact question. I believe they came to the conclusion that Gundabad was never a proper Dwarven settlement, therefore any attempts to settle it would require a building effort, something the Dwarves may not have had the manpower to achieve. They also theorised that Gundabad might not have been overly rich in wealth and minerals, and that its isolated location meant that the Dwarves wouldn't have been safe, either from Dragons or from Orcs that survived the war. I'm inclined to agree with them.
I find it interesting that the Balrog couldn't be stopped when Khazadum was at full strength as the Balrogs are fierce but not necessarily one being armies and unlike the Peter Jackson version the Balrog in the book is described as like a man but greater, so not a twenty foot tall protodragon. So it's a bit puzzling how they go from wholesale destruction to being one v oned by individuals. For instance Durin's Bane was slain by Gandalf the Grey, but Gandalf would have been slain by goblins in the Hobbit if not for the Eagles so it's an odd fluctuation in power.
Well there's a few reasons for that. The primary thing to remember is the notion of fear and general morale, something which exists even more strongly in Tolkien's world as it's often suggested that physical victory comes from the willingness of the forces of Arda to resist evil. It is not necessary for Durin's Bane to slay hundreds or even thousands of dwarves, all he really needs to do is show up, a being of shadow and flame, a demon from an ancient time.. and that's enough likely for a great number of dwarves to be willing to run away, and then when it gets closer and actually starts burning and decapitating people? That's likely enough for even dwarves to say nope never mind. The goblins however have no such fear of Gandalf, he's a wizard sure, but he doesn't look so tough now does he? That and he's forbidden from using his full power against the goblins, though he seems to do so against the balrog.
Sylus gave a good answer in terms of the practical effects, but you have to keep in mind that Middle-earth was experiencing a metaphysical decline since the days of Melkor. Third Age Elves were weaker than First Age Elves, the Dunedain were gradually declining, and I imagine the Dwarves weren't immune to this either. A Balrog in the First Age had to deal with many formidable foes. A Balrog in the Third Age was like a MMA fighter taking on pre-schoolers.
Amazing video man congratz! Nice new and interesting lore once again thanks man! You should cover more of the Dwarfs and about the 7 clans, cant wait to see Balins quest And about them fighting for Sauron, I really dont think the Dwarfs of the east, Orocarni in the Red Mountains, did fight for him, but its know he had twisted some Dwarfs to fight for him, just dont think all of them specially the royal family clans ones
@@DarthGandalfYT lol paying them with riches yes xD but what about the others? The 7 clans must have talked about everything with each other, I dont think they would fight each other on battle... they are basically family, quite an interesting thought maybe was the first Petty Dwarfs, the ones who didnt follow the 7 clans and lived isolated, the ones that some Elves slained could be
What’s your take on force sizes at Azanulbizar? I think it’s in PoME where Tolkien mentions 10,000 orcs slain at the battle. Combined with the probably substantial number who escaped to the White Mts I reckon they had no more than 15,000 at the start of the battle. This leaves me to think it could have been around 7000’ish dwarves (therefore around a 2:1 advantage to orcs at start of battle). Whilst certainly not the the largest of battles in the Third Age I like to think of it as the culmination of several years of attritional struggle between the two peoples.
I think your numbers are definitely in an acceptable range. Both sides would've already taken heavy casualties in the previous years of the war so it makes sense that they would both would have been reasonably reduced by Azanulbizar.
It's certainly possible. He probably would've been alive at the time, and being the greatest of the Dragons of his time, I can't imagine he sat idly by.
Far more powerful, but their impact on Middle-earth would've been far less. They probably would've kept to their isolationist ways. The butterfly effect would've been massive - if the Dwarves never ended up in Erebor, Smaug probably never would've attacked, and if Smaug never attacked, then a certain Hobbit would've never found the One Ring.
@@DarthGandalfYT very interesting this is definitely going to make me think about a scenario that I created Bassicly its all of middle earth's races at the height of there power vs Sauron at the height of his power
There is a couple of stories of Elves beating Balrogs single handed and Gandalf does too. So why couldn't an entire Dwarven army beat this thing? Hmmmm
I don't think the army would've had an opportunity to even fight the Balrog. They called it the Nameless Terror because they weren't even sure of what it was, which indicates that they probably never got a chance to properly identify it. The Balrog probably stalked the lower levels of the city, killing or terrifying anyone it encountered, and actively avoiding any armed resistance that it wasn't confident of defeating. I imagine the Dwarves sent hunting parties after it, but these undoubtedly all failed, and when two kings had died at its hands, they decided that they couldn't beat it and fled.
@@DarthGandalfYT maybe some day we will be blessed with a movie or show or even an animation thing that will show of more of that. Anyways keep up the great work. Love these videos.
Bears obviously exist, but polar bears are never mentioned. But consider this - Middle-earth is a mythical prehistoric version of our world. Polar bears exist in our world, therefore there is a good chance they also existed in Middle-earth. We just don't see them because the story never really goes north enough (the Noldor crossing the Helcaraxe is probably the only time known characters enter the "polar" region).
![Review the Atlas of Middle-Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad [Recorded June 22, Published July 24, 2011]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YsBr2SNPWHk/mqdefault.jpg)
Two more episodes until the War of the Ring - can you guess what they might be?
Battle of the Five armies must be one of them
Gondor vs somoeone, I think they will fight against Harad.
Fell winter (Helm Hammerhand and wargs in Shire) and the Quest for Erebor.
Battle of the five armies and somethong with rohan
The batalle of the five armies and Rohan vs Dunladings
So they slayed tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of orcs. They literally saved Eriador, Rohan and Gondor from a potential disaster
High tens of thousands I would suspect. They certainly took a lot of the pressure off Eriador, but I don't think the Misty Mountains were too threatening to either Rohan or Gondor. Mountain Orcs were disorganised and fought each other just as much as they fought other peoples, and they usually weren't too keen on leaving their tunnels unless they had a very good reason.
@@DarthGandalfYT i think they were threatening because they had already attacked Gondor during the Battle of the Field of Celebrant
And just some decades before the orcs began to attack Eriador until the Dunedain drove them back to the mountains. If Sauron could direct them to attack the south then maybe Gondor and Rohan might have some trouble during the War of the Ring
I’ve always found the war of the dwarves and orcs the most interesting 👍
"If this is victory our hands are to small to hold it" pretty much sums up the Dwarf Wars to be honest that was Phyric Victory on a grand scale
Barûk Khâzad! Khâzad ai-menû!
Is there any reason given in the books for why they didn't resettle Gundabad since they had cleared out most of the Orcs?
Maybe lack of forces to make sure the orcs cannot recover?
@@joaqu7002 I mean, the Orcs were scattered all over the place. If the Dwarves had concentrated their entire force on Gundabad and its hinterlands, they probably could've reclaimed it. And the Iron Hill's would've helped out most likely.
I think when they got there everything was almost destroyed and fashioned by Orcs... they must have brought down every statue and halls
There was actually a really good post on r/tolkienfans recently that posed this exact question. I believe they came to the conclusion that Gundabad was never a proper Dwarven settlement, therefore any attempts to settle it would require a building effort, something the Dwarves may not have had the manpower to achieve. They also theorised that Gundabad might not have been overly rich in wealth and minerals, and that its isolated location meant that the Dwarves wouldn't have been safe, either from Dragons or from Orcs that survived the war. I'm inclined to agree with them.
This is easily the best lotr channel
I find it interesting that the Balrog couldn't be stopped when Khazadum was at full strength as the Balrogs are fierce but not necessarily one being armies and unlike the Peter Jackson version the Balrog in the book is described as like a man but greater, so not a twenty foot tall protodragon. So it's a bit puzzling how they go from wholesale destruction to being one v oned by individuals. For instance Durin's Bane was slain by Gandalf the Grey, but Gandalf would have been slain by goblins in the Hobbit if not for the Eagles so it's an odd fluctuation in power.
Well there's a few reasons for that. The primary thing to remember is the notion of fear and general morale, something which exists even more strongly in Tolkien's world as it's often suggested that physical victory comes from the willingness of the forces of Arda to resist evil. It is not necessary for Durin's Bane to slay hundreds or even thousands of dwarves, all he really needs to do is show up, a being of shadow and flame, a demon from an ancient time.. and that's enough likely for a great number of dwarves to be willing to run away, and then when it gets closer and actually starts burning and decapitating people? That's likely enough for even dwarves to say nope never mind. The goblins however have no such fear of Gandalf, he's a wizard sure, but he doesn't look so tough now does he? That and he's forbidden from using his full power against the goblins, though he seems to do so against the balrog.
Sylus gave a good answer in terms of the practical effects, but you have to keep in mind that Middle-earth was experiencing a metaphysical decline since the days of Melkor. Third Age Elves were weaker than First Age Elves, the Dunedain were gradually declining, and I imagine the Dwarves weren't immune to this either. A Balrog in the First Age had to deal with many formidable foes. A Balrog in the Third Age was like a MMA fighter taking on pre-schoolers.
When’s the farmer maggot episode?
Great video!
1:29 which orcs head is on a pike next to Celebrimbor? What did that orc do to deserve that??
Amazing video man congratz! Nice new and interesting lore once again thanks man!
You should cover more of the Dwarfs and about the 7 clans, cant wait to see Balins quest
And about them fighting for Sauron, I really dont think the Dwarfs of the east, Orocarni in the Red Mountains, did fight for him, but its know he had twisted some Dwarfs to fight for him, just dont think all of them specially the royal family clans ones
It's always possible that some simply fought for him as mercenaries.
@@DarthGandalfYT lol paying them with riches yes xD
but what about the others? The 7 clans must have talked about everything with each other, I dont think they would fight each other on battle... they are basically family, quite an interesting thought
maybe was the first Petty Dwarfs, the ones who didnt follow the 7 clans and lived isolated, the ones that some Elves slained could be
Can’t wait for more episodes @DarthGandalf and carry on awesome work
This was very interesting.
Another interesting topic to watch.
Your channel is awesome !!!
Can you make a video on what if orcs joined the last alliance for orcish reasons which are selfish and evil what would happen
What’s your take on force sizes at Azanulbizar? I think it’s in PoME where Tolkien mentions 10,000 orcs slain at the battle. Combined with the probably substantial number who escaped to the White Mts I reckon they had no more than 15,000 at the start of the battle. This leaves me to think it could have been around 7000’ish dwarves (therefore around a 2:1 advantage to orcs at start of battle). Whilst certainly not the the largest of battles in the Third Age I like to think of it as the culmination of several years of attritional struggle between the two peoples.
I think your numbers are definitely in an acceptable range. Both sides would've already taken heavy casualties in the previous years of the war so it makes sense that they would both would have been reasonably reduced by Azanulbizar.
Very interresting
Cheers
Farmer Maggot for president
God-Emperor Maggot would be more fitting.
Did Smaug fought against the dwarves in the War of the Dwarves and Dragons?
It's certainly possible. He probably would've been alive at the time, and being the greatest of the Dragons of his time, I can't imagine he sat idly by.
I have an odd question.What if the Balrog in moria was never there.Instead somewhere else like in mordor.How powerful would the dwarves be then?
Far more powerful, but their impact on Middle-earth would've been far less. They probably would've kept to their isolationist ways. The butterfly effect would've been massive - if the Dwarves never ended up in Erebor, Smaug probably never would've attacked, and if Smaug never attacked, then a certain Hobbit would've never found the One Ring.
@@DarthGandalfYT very interesting this is definitely going to make me think about a scenario that I created
Bassicly its all of middle earth's races at the height of there power vs Sauron at the height of his power
Anyone know a music around second minute?
It's either Pride of the Dwarves or the Dwarves Explore from the BFME2 soundtrack.
@@DarthGandalfYT Thank you, I knew it sounded familiar ;). BTW best LOTR content on yt, and I know what I say ;)
There is a couple of stories of Elves beating Balrogs single handed and Gandalf does too.
So why couldn't an entire Dwarven army beat this thing?
Hmmmm
I don't think the army would've had an opportunity to even fight the Balrog. They called it the Nameless Terror because they weren't even sure of what it was, which indicates that they probably never got a chance to properly identify it. The Balrog probably stalked the lower levels of the city, killing or terrifying anyone it encountered, and actively avoiding any armed resistance that it wasn't confident of defeating. I imagine the Dwarves sent hunting parties after it, but these undoubtedly all failed, and when two kings had died at its hands, they decided that they couldn't beat it and fled.
@@DarthGandalfYT maybe some day we will be blessed with a movie or show or even an animation thing that will show of more of that.
Anyways keep up the great work.
Love these videos.
Do polar bears exist in Middle Earth?
Bears obviously exist, but polar bears are never mentioned.
But consider this - Middle-earth is a mythical prehistoric version of our world. Polar bears exist in our world, therefore there is a good chance they also existed in Middle-earth. We just don't see them because the story never really goes north enough (the Noldor crossing the Helcaraxe is probably the only time known characters enter the "polar" region).