As a current Battletech player, I will say that Catalyst has done a great job of making the game more accessible to new players. Over the last few years, they have introduced 3 starter boxes that have super slimmed down rule books that allow you to grasp the majority of the game. It focuses on what most of us want out of a game of big stompy robots- the Mechs. They have also taken all of the Mech combat information from the Total Warfare and the two Tactical Operations manuals and dropped it into a single slimmer compendium; the Battlemech Manual. They also created an even simpler, less crunchy version of the game in Alpha Strike. They really allow you to decide on your own level of crunchiness these days and have products meant to appeal to every type of player. Me, I'm about the mechs and rarely play with any infantry or vehicles, because I like to keep it simpler, and I follow the fiction, but I don't need an in-depth recitation of the history of every mech variant as found the the TRO. Give me some record sheets, some models and let me get on the battlefield!
And don't forget, they have quick start rules for free on there website including free printable map sheets and you can play with gummi bears if you really want (wouldn't recommend as target ID and stickiness becomes an issue, but satisfying to each the mech that blew up) and generally speaking a very open and welcoming community
@@okamigau Was going to point this out as well. As opposed to Gummy bears, you can use paper Standees for Mechs and use the free rules to try out Battletech.
I've been playing BT off and on for about 30 years. I think the game has always been pretty accessible for players at all levels. Even in the '80s it was possible to play a relatively simple game using the basic starter box. I always thought the record sheets made the game look more intimidating that it actually was/is. CGL has definitely done a great job making it even more accessible, though.
I will also say BTech players tend to be VASTLY more accepting of poorTech/non-standard minis in official events. It's pretty cool that if you want to flip factions for most factions the minis are the exact same and you don't even have to change your paint schemes because nearly every main faction, before the clans, had the same mechs and at least one unit in their vast armies that used whatever paint scheme you picked.
As I've grown older, I've come more to the conclusion that having complex rules is overrated. Having a lot of sub-systems or additional layers of complexity is not, in and of itself, good. It may be to a person's _taste,_ but taste is subjective. There's no rule saying a game must be more complicated in order to be good. It's why I prefer Grimdark Future from One Page Rules far more than 40K.
One Page Rules all the way.. I still like my skirmish games a bit more crunchy but for a straight up TT wargame it's much better than 9th edition imop.. 40k has too many rules with too much book spread, situational tactics that don't add to my fun and pointless units which never see the light of day.
Haven’t tried one page rules yet. 40k 9th feels fun and fine for the most part in a casual setting - a setting where folks are reminding you of optional stratagems because there’s too many to keep tabs on, and folks aren’t taking the absolute best min/max. I’ll agree 40k is very complicated. And I also agree complicated isn’t automatically better.
For me, the question is: how well do the rules successfully create the feeling generally understood to be the setting. Take Necromunda, for example. It has a complex morale system,a complex system for determining the results of unreliable weapons firing, and a complex leveling/progression system. Given that it is a game about disorganized gangs having street brawls, that complexity fits perfectly. The reason 40k fails atm for me is that a lot of the complexity doesn't really serve anything, and the level of over the top lethality that the complexity causes (as most of the layers of special rules amount to offensive buffs) actively seems to work against a setting that is generally known for FEARLESS WARRIORS IN IMPENETRABLE SPACE ARMOR and then you look at competitive games and it's basically a "Competitive Cowering In Fear Simulator"
I moved my kids (10 and under) from Heroquest to OPR Skirmish and they took to it easily and loved it more than Heroquest! I skipped GW models and went with Mantic, Osprey's Oathmark series, and some other random additions and we have 5 really good skirmish armies to play with. Best thing is - they will finish homework so we can play a game or 2 on a weekday night! Kill Team and Warcry are great and all, but simple is better and more fun IMHO.
I inherited my father's FASA battletech library years ago, and wasn't until recently I had the ability to get models. Now that I have made time to paint these models, my friends (dnd and 40k nerds) are suddenly interested. Sometimes a little push makes things fall together.
Remember too that, if you play a GW game, the only time you 'have to' use GW miniatures is in an 'official' game i.e. in-store, tournament, etc. For home or local club games, there are plenty of 'proxy' miniatures out there for a LOT less money.
As a side note, being deployed and when we had time to uwhine, we played many wargames with what ever we had to be the miniatures. So the excuse or myth that you need miniatures or certain things to play is crazy and you don't as long as all are having fun.
I would also HIGHLY recommend One Page Rules to anyone, new or old players. The rules are pretty light but still convey nuance, cover different scales of game, from skirmish to enormous armies, are miniature agnostic, and are totally FREE. I I have long maintained that a company who manufactures rules AND models is always going to sacrifice rules balance and integrity in favour of making new model releases more powerful, which defeats the object of a tactical game entirely on my opinion. That's why OPR is such a good alternative for me. Since discovering OPR, it has been the only ruleset I have used.
Well, that's true for now, but I don't like direction opr is taking. They're now effectively selling armies, digitally as well as physically. In particular armies for which there are no proxies. If you want to play eternal dynasty (as opposed to Tao coalition) you have to use their models and either print them yourself or buy preprinted from their affiliates.
I think you maybe missed the point. While I don't necessarily disagree with your point about the new Eternal whatsits, the point of OPR is that you can feel free to use models from any system, not just 40k. You can also freely use proxies. Nobody at the gaming club is going to tell you “you can't use THOSE models to represent THAT faction! " That's because there is no meta or competitive scene or snobbishness, it's just about having some casual fun with less rules weight and smaller armies, without greatly supporting companies who charge you for models AND rules. Also, as I mentioned, the rules are FREE, so if they need to make some minis to justify the time and effort they put into the free rules, that's fine with me. Nobody is making me but them, and I won't either. Still, I get some of your point completely, I hope that they don't go TOO far with these new factions with very few decent stand-in models from manufacturers other than OPR. So yeah, I do slightly share your concern.
Not just Harmony Gold, but US TV broadcast limitations. For example, in 'Battle of the Planets', the US localization of Science Ninja Team Gatchaman, all of the scenes with 7-Zark-7 and 1-Rover-1 were added in the US to pad episodes back out to a 30-minute format after they'd removed all of the footage that couldn't be shown on American broadcast TV.
I did the paper proxies when I first started playing 40k back in the day and then tested various factions I might have wanted then once I made a choice I then bought the minis
I discovered One Page Rules: Grimdark Future as a good replacement for 40k and was inspired to back into the hobby because now I had a game system that wasn't nearly as hard to get into because of rules bloat. After being burnt out on a bunch of games (tactical and rpg) having too much "rules bloat," I've learned to go after games that definitely forgo having a rule for every tiny little detail. I know some people have fun with that, but I've found that the complex/crunchy the rules, the more time everyone at the table has to flip open the books to double check the rules and less time actually playing the game. When it comes to the miniatures, I just go with whatever looks cool to me. And I can always find a place for any mini I acquire, whether it be a tactics game or an rpg. Painting wise, it's probably my favorite part of the hobby. But that's because it calms me and is a great creative outlet for my depression and ADHD. But nobody needs to go the great lengths I go to get their army "table ready." I honestly don't mind if someone brings to the table grey plastic or even paper minis, as long as they're having fun that is all that matters.
Onepagerules does what it says on the tin. Very straightforward simple rules which create very strategic games without needing 5 books to keep referring to.
It's true about turning someone that has no interest in the hobby, into someone that absolutely loves the hobby. Because it happened to me 👍 one of my friends wanted someone to play with so taught me AOS and the lore and now I love it. Its fantastic 👏
the main issue seems to stem from GW games being the face of the hobby, people see 40k, and AoS and think "This must be the baseline" but they really aren't...
Luckily I grew up when GW was far more customer and kid friendly regarding £$. Fit set I got was Necromunda for £40. Come with 2 gangs, full set of awesome buildings and really in depth rule and source books which included everything for all the gangs (when released). Absolute bargain. £12 for a metal gang and you had enough for unlimited games. If like me you was lucky enough to have a best friend who also played you got one set each and had enough terrain to fill a 4x4 board comfortably. Awesome times never to be repeated with how much GW is now. Even Necro needs cards and gang codex.
I’m finding I love papercraft terrain which is relatively inexpensive. I make it so it folds flat to save space and if I get tired of it I can recycle it and make new terrain. And I only play “easy” games and swingier the better. It’s easy to find people to play when you play solo! But also. What is that shirt?! Love it.
I think I would probably be more into non-GW stuff if anyone at all played it in my area. GW was our only hobby store (other than comic shops that could bring stuff in on order) until recently.
Yup, my area is all 40k and X-wing. I really enjoy both games, but I’m getting angry at the new xwing overlords as they try and complicate the game more “we are making it more accessible” …. By making the rules more complicated to reduce penalty for mistakes so everyone just flies at each other jousting hoping for lucky dice. No thanks AMG
Me and my partner have really good fun just playing through things like the Recruit edition rulebook for 40k, or the Battle in Balin's Tomb Board game from MESBG. Low model count and easier rules means there's less buy in for her, and I can keep painting my minis between club days. The trade off is I do have to watch the occasional film I'm not usually interested in but it's a fair swap, a few hours of my time for a few hours of hers. Plus, turns out Dirty Dancing really isn't that bad. Hmm, maybe I should get a Patrick Swayze lookalike miniature next...
Great video! I think it'd be interesting to see a video on, say, your top 10 or 20 mini agonistic "buy this one book and play" wargames/skirmish games from as many directions as possible. That could shine a light on a ton of more obscure games, I think!
He would be inevitably biased as he has made a miniatures agnostic game by the name of Reign in Hell with Vince Venturella, but I too would enjoy a top 10
The most difficult thing for me has been looking at what I've painted, and looking at what other's have painting and realizing that while I might think my models are shit, they're at least better than bare plastic. Knowing I will improve the more I paint is both an incentive and hill to climb
For me I had to get over that idea that I have go get to that level :) If you are having fun really working on your skill, then amazing. But I've come to the realisation: my current results are good enough for me and improve my enjoymrnt when I play with the models. So I just keep doing what is working for me instead of trying new techniques every other model and I finally enjoy painting again :)
I had my nieces over for a painting day recently and while they were working on My Little Pony miniatures I painted up a mini from a set I had started working on 7 or 8 years ago and then forgotten about. Comparing my earlier work to my current work was shocking. I remember being pretty pleased with myself way back then but the difference in quality was incredible. I am infinitely more skilled now and you will be too if you continue to paint and take the time to study different techniques. Its an incredible hobby, it's rewarding, relaxing and a great outlet for creativity.
Really appreciate this video and I hope a lot of folks watch it. I guess the real issue is that in a hobby dominated by GW they kinda get to set the narrative. To most folks wargaming = Warhammer. A cycle I’d like to see broken. I’m a 40k fan but there are so many other less expensive and just as awesome games out there and more folks should be able to find them 🙂
I tried since 6th edition 40k to get people in to malifaux, batman, bolt action and infinity. I was told 'but there's not enough players whereas with 40k I can always get a game' so its a self-perpetuating problem. It's really difficult to get a solid base of people to play a game with great rules and great minis.
@@OldManRogers I agree and always faced the same issue. I’ve found as my gaming group matured folks were more up for different things. But that group is also a lot smaller now.
The example I’ve used for point #1: Bird Watching. You either spend thousands of dollars traveling internationally to migratory paths, buy the best binoculars, hire guides, purchases all the books, etc. Or you can just sit on your back porch looking at your feeder.
I'm lucky enough to have a wargaming club on my doorstep that meets every Sunday. However, even then I find it hard to get a game of Kill Team, Warcry or even Underworlds as they're just not games most club members are interested in. To be fair, they've got a great historical scene which has slowly been turning my head.
I definitely agree whit most of the points you made. It is only as expensive as we allow it to be. I play Death Guard but I don't own Mortarion, my army is rather small and I can't justify spending £80 on ONE mini (even a big one), that's a cost of a whole new game. I play WH40K but I only play with my son, therefore never had any problems with finding someone to play with, we just both started Warhammer moving from board games. And because we only play at home we can make the game to be as easy as we want it to be, and we can take from the game what we want.
I would buy a 3D printer as it would allow a cheaper buy in to multiple tabletop games 200$ for a good resin printer and 20 bucks for resin every once and awhile. Now boom you are able to play games that are no longer in production or even current modern games
I've really been enjoying your livestreams on Twitch. For me, my desire to paint is so strong, I want to paint every single day. It doesn't always happen due to work and kids...
I can’t paint every day due to work and no kids (but other responsibilities, like producing videos for TH-cam) and some weeks, the only painting time I get is during my Twitch streams. But it’s okay - some is better than none. Thanks for watching!
I picked up Mice and Mystics for our 10 year old for Christmas. We've had a few games under our belt that's been a lot of learning the rules but it's been fun just playing a mini game together at the dining table. Eventually I want to try some simple kill team games once I get enough minis painted. So far so good!
Many wargaming compaines at one point would out rules for beginners. That made them appealing, now it seems like that part is not important to many companies. When 3rd ED of D&D came out and the push to the CORE RULE BOOK SET I think really set us down a path of things getting out of hand for rule books. Where you might have ONE thick rule book, that offered everything from beginners to so advanced that you just go with the fight was over before you roll dice. That was fun, but I agree if I need to dig through 5 books just to play a game...yeah no not happening. Every wargame out there can be played at it's most simplest level and still be fun, and we need to get back to that.
I've gotten into the hobby at the age of 36 and went cold turkey into 40k. Not the easiest road to be honest. I joined a very nice group of local players who eased me into the rules and painting. The most daunting thing was remembering all the rules for my Thousand Sons army. I tried to get into the hobby a bit earlier in life but I went to a 2v2 game once and it became pretty hostile because of an argument about some rules. 'not my crowd' was my conclusion at that time. Glad I gave it another chance because it's really fun. I've moved more into smaller actual boardgames now, but I still play 40k games from time to time.
The way I like to look at what level of hobby supplies I should buy is by asking if what I'm buying is higher quality than I'm capable of taking advantage of; for example, I chose Army Painter for my first paint set even though it's not the best because I'm not good enough for it to matter yet
I had a friend who knew guys who would play warhammer fantasy using pieces of paper with unit names written on them. So you could and there are people who get into it pretty cheap, with free rules and unit profiles, if you are really into the game mechanics some paper and a pen is a feasible way to go
original fantasy battles rule book had pages at the back of the book of units to photocopy. they expected you to play with these items until you built your full army.
We have a lively community where I live for 40K and AoS but getting set times with people can be a butt unless you just catch that one random who is looking to play too last minute. In comes my friend whom got a much nicer job and with that wants to deep dive into hobbies he couldn't previously touch. Ended up getting him an Elite Edition box for 40K and though we have yet to play, I have someone much more reliable and willing to count on to play with now. Family and friends are such a blessing to have in this hobby.
Great points. In particular those who find it hard to paint or model. I would love if you did a video for those who cannot do this and discuss the options available to them. Airfix and Revell make easy click kits. I recently pointed out to someone these kits bring joy to those who miss modelling on health grounds. They called them childrens versions. Warlord games released different coloured sprues for opposing armies. GW did it for some of their sets such as Stormstrike. Although they still need assembly. As for paints, you could just dip in contrast/ shade paint. Or buy painted from ebay. I have seen paper plastic armies. High quality stuff from Paperboys or free to download printables. Arcknight do a range that look great.
Those are really good points. No reason someone shouldn’t enjoy taking part in the hobby just because they can’t/don’t want to do the building and painting.
@@NightfireGamingYT I had a friend who loved Airfix and suffered a traumatic injury that prevented him doing the kits. Turned to Cobi. Like lego but armour and weapons. So left them enjoy the build.
They seem to work really well with games where units aren't made up of individual mini's and wounds are tracked with individual model removal. I noticed that many units in historical games tended to be several multi-mini bases, instead of individual separate mini's. Kings of War and Warmaster do a similar thing with multiple mini's on large bases.
@@Pariahwulfen I had that. It came with a book that had pre-filled out record sheets for the primary version of all the mechs from Technical Readout 3025. They later released a series of books that had the sheets for all the variants mentioned in that Technical Readout.
Another myth is "You always have to play the latest edition" Now obviously if you want to play in tournaments, this isn't the case. But a bunch of my friends were just stilling around reminiscing about how we didn't like 9th edition of 40K and how we all though 4th edition was just so much simpler and more fun. Then, like inspiration from God himself, it dawned on us that we could just grab our old 4th edition stuff and keep playing what we liked. Somehow it seemed unthinkable at the time but now we literally play 4th edition 40K with armies made from Legos (because sometimes you just wanna try out a 1,500 point Guard list with 292 guardsman and nothing else to see if it works at all) Also, Battletech is crunchy, but i wouldn't call it THICC. The vast majority of the rules in Tactical and Strategic Operations are just different ways to play. Catalyst has an AWESOME beginner box that teaches you how to play in about 20 pages. Thats really the only core rules you need to play 90% of the stuff out there. And even if thats too much, Alpha Strike's rules are something like 4 pages long.
I have some gaming buddies from high school who still play 3rd Ed 40k...and who have all their old 2nd ed stuff, too. Absolutely nothing requires anyone to play (or buy) the current edition. I had sold off a lot of my Dark Angels from 2nd and 3rd ed, and when I started getting back into the game, I just used Primaris marines as normal marines and played with 3rd ed rules. That obviously won't fly in an official event, but nothing stops us doing it in a casual game with friends. Back when GW announced 9th edition, I encountered quite a few people whining about how they were being forced to upgrade to 9th. They all turned super shitty with me when I dared to suggest that they could just keep playing 8th if they wanted to. I laughed at them and told them if they weren't bright enough to understand that the rules from the 8th edition books didn't disappear when 9th released, or that their armies wouldn't melt if they weren't playing the current version, they didn't have any reason to whine about GW "sticking it to them;" they should be whining about their own stupidity and weak will.
Me and my fiancé landed two boxes of north star miniatures (mechanicus grey primer to pull them together), grabbed a rule book and had a blast cardboard crafting terrain. Whole thing cost less than 60$ and we got 50+ miniatures. Ez pz. Hell, those north star boxes are 20 minis each, you could play a whole game with just the frost-grave soldiers
I built a Reaper Bones warband for This Is Not A Test to convince my friends they could get into the game for like $20. The hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be.
We've been playing battletech alpha strike and having great fun with that and after all these decades we are dipping our toes into classic battletech for the first time. We still lean into indie games: pulp alley, song of blades and heros, reign in hell (shamless plug there), and play the occasional warcry and kill team. I like hamburgers I just don't want to have them everyday. Once you have a skirmish force or two, it is possible to use them for many different games. Then things can get really inexpensive for a lot of different games.
As a battletech player I bought a pile of older 3rd Edition starter set plastic minis. Alongside some of the Ironwind Metals for Battle Armour and artillery/transports. Relatively cheap buy in. As a good example of a simpler ruleset id also reccomend Reign in Hell.
I've learned that I "save money" by spending it where it counts. I bought an airbrush, admittedly expensive, but it has saved me in paint, time, and priming sprays. Using the RPG mentality of getting ideas and materials from everywhere has helped me so much too. Thanks for this video!
Airbrush was great purchase for priming. Would have issues finding the brand of spray can primer I liked in stock. Now...I got a bottle of Vallejo white, grey, and black(the workhorse) and haven't come close to depleting them. It's also great for trying out zenithal highlighting.
All so true. I have to say, my favourite wargame from a design standpoint at the moment is aSoIaF, the manual for which is like 36 pages. And that advice about friends/family is so true. Last year a friend and I split a Pelennor Fields box. I don’t play Rohan and didn’t want to start a new army at the time, so I gave those models to my sister because she loves LotR and specifically Rohan. Flash forward a year, she’s started 2nd and 3rd armies for MESBG, and has started aSoIaF and 40k
When I was age 10 I found Metagames wargames (OGRE, Chitin 1, Rivets) and immediately started making my own games with paper and pencil. Little triangle tent standups with stats and crudely drawn war machines for my games based on the sci-fi books I was reading at the time. Good times, didn't really cost me anything either. :)
I got into the hobby with the original version of Age of Sigmar. 4 page rules! I still use that to introduce my friends and family into the game. My second game and still one of my favorites was Frostgrave. I have multiple warbands and I can host game night for all my favorite games.
I recently started wh40k and during the painting it dawned pretty quickly that it is exactly as hard as I want it to be. I got a free cultist from my game shop, slapped khorne red all over him after priming, painted his gun and his mask and he was surprisingly presentable. I could agonize over his details and spend hours blending and doing highlights but if I had 11 other cultists I would feel little shame throwing him in with them.
Issue with the whole "you don't need to play the game with a lot of rules" is you need to have someone that wants to play those more "obscure" and less known games with you, otherwise i'm just collecting miniatures without no one to play against. Especially if you live in the middle of fucking nowhere (like me) it's also difficult to persuade someone to spend money on yet ANOTHER tabletop game compared to the rest of them, because they'd rather be playing whatever tabletop they're into or heck someone new that isn't interested in it in the first place. Because tabletop gaming is expensive. Especially for a new person that looks at the miniatures and rule books etc. and no, my cousin, sibling, parents, whatever else don't want to play something like 40k, bolt action or Infinity with me as they think the rules are too hard, and want to play Ludo or UNO instead because the rules are simplified, i have asked them multiple times. Neither does my friends because it is still looked as an immensly nerdy activity and it just does not interest them. When you live in a place where there isnt many options makes it immensly hard to play with anybody and when you look online you realize that the only people that do play said tabletop game is in the other side of the country. especially in the country side where seeing other people is a rarity. Rest i agree on.
My "cheap" entry into wargames was to buy the most basic army painter set and one box of troops. Nowadays I still buy one box at a time, and really really hone in on painting. Just kinda stretching my money over time. It took a year to play a game, but last year would have seen few games anyway
The longest wargame I ever played was a massive game of classic battletech: A Clan Binary Nova against a reinforced company of 6 lances (24 mechs). It took about 8 hours to finish, it was a great time but I do not have that sort of time anymore: Now I use Alpha Strike, much faster.
been playing battletech since 1st ed (Battledroids). our battles are usually battalion v battalion, or larger of mixed forces. our games last between 4 to 6 hours. a company v company battle is a 2 to 3 hour game. yes, this is classic, not alpha or destiny.
I kinda wish they could find a middle ground between CBT and AS. CBT is good for small battles and AS is good for big battles, but I don't like either for anything in between. CBT is too detailed and takes too long, while AS is to simplified and units seem to lose their uniqueness when just boiled down to a bunch of numbers.
@@105Gunner Given the number of cross-references in those rules to rule books I don't have, I couldn't really tell how it might play. If they want the rules to be simple, they all need to be in the same place.
We once did a a Cluster of Clan 50 mechs + Elementals vs the groups merc unit of about 60-70 mechs + tanks and infantry. It was the final battle of a 3 year RPG game where we did several of the battles on table top. Took us about 100+ hours to run. One of the players gave us a room in his basement for the 2 months irl it took to get those hours done in.
I think you put something at the very end that should have been at the beginning. Skirmish games are probably the best way to start playing, especially if it leads into another, fuller game, like the Battletech Quickstart set, or Warcry or the like. I also think games like Marvel Crisis Protocol are a great starting point that can be very cheap. Also ask people to borrow things. I've taught people how to paint with my own gear many times.
That last point is very true. Almost everyone I play Kill Team with is someone I taught to play at this point. Another good solution to that is try to find tournaments or events even if you have to travel some
The photography thing really hits home. I'm a decently successful photographer and I get people asking for gear advice. They'll get so hyped up on the features of a Leica or a pro-grade Canon or Olympus and my question is always "why do you need those features as a beginner?" My daily driver is a 20 year-old, consumer grade canon and it does everything I need it to do. If someone bought me a Leica, I'd love it, but I'm not going to shell out for it myself because my "crappy" camera works fine at a fraction of the price
Cost isn’t just up to you. It’s up to you AND the other human beings you play it with. If nobody wants to play against your paper cutouts,or play your cheap games, then you aren’t playing.
Kings of War is a great Rank&Flank war-game that is very cheap to get in to. It works using units, not individual models, and each unit has a specific footprint, so you can use a correctly sized rectangle of chipboard to represent your unit on the table. You can trial entire armies that way while you learn the rules. Units interact with terrain in a very straightforward way so 2D pieces of cardboard with wobbly edges is all you need. You just write the type and height of terrain on top for everyone to see. The rules are free to download. And the softback gamers edition rulebook has everything you need plus all the army lists and is cheap to buy. In fact you get it free in the two-player starter boxes. Of course you can go as mad as you want with spending, but if you are only used to GW’s business model, Kings of War will be a refreshing change.
I've been involved in all aspects of the gaming industry for over 40 years. as you said, the financial cost is what you are willing to spend. I find the cost of 'time', to be more than financial. any activity you choose to do will require some amount of financial support. as for game complexity, I like to play battletech with alot more detail added. the GW product line is made to be a meat grinder with high body count. as for RPG, when I was younger, I wanted alot of detail. now I use a 4x6 index card for a character sheet. anything larger, has too much detail for me. the game I currently play uses 2D6 and each character has between 7 to 15 skills. there are no base characteristics or attributes.
Why I enjoy playin' Battletech over Warhammer 40,000, simple, the complex rules that if I go hey could I do this, look in Advance Rules book and hey, I cam! Plus I can build an army for cheap.
one thing i really enjoy about Battletech is that you can make it as easy or complicated as you like...I am really enjoying the Alpha Strike way to play of late...it's fast, fun, and still gives you that "big stompy robot" action without taking three weeks to play two turns. It's a lot harder to do that with GW games. I used to like Kill Team because it was smaller, easier to get into, and you could omit some of the complexity if you wanted but they wrecked that game. I've long been the "teacher" of outlier games and I just cannot do it anymore. I'm really tired of finding an interesting game and wanting to get into it but then I realize I have to be the "champion" of that game in my area and I lose enthusiasm. In this area it is Magic and 40K, some AoS and Pokemon, but that's really it. We lost the local gaming shop in town here, and the hobby shop too. There's still one place that has some gaming stuff, but it is mostly just those four. If I go to other areas, then I can find some other games on the shelves at some stores, but it still isn't easy and it is nearly impossible to get outlier games outside of the "big four" to take off...and that was even before all the current plague. I've taken to playing some of the GW boxed games like the Space Marine Adventures line and Dan Verssen games that are designed (many of them anyway) with a solitaire mode. The Rise of the Orks game is really fun, IMO, but far too many "40K purists" crap on it and the others like it because it isn't "proper" 40K so it must be dumb. At least it allows me to play with my models and even inspires some hobby creativity. And I can do it at my own house without worrying about nurgle's plague. :p
Im kinda in the same boat as you are, I too play BattleTech Alpha Strike, mainly its cost and ease of game play, the major problem is getting people into it, aside from living in a rural city in Alberta, most of the community is made up entirely of Pokemon/Magic players with a Super Smash bros group thrown into the mix, we had a Wargaming group at one point at our big Downtown game store, but thanks to the current owners Incompetence and abusive behaviour, we unfortunately lost that group after that groups admin left. Now im trying to keep it alive in a small comics and collectable shop in the north end. pretty much My BT group may well be the last of its kind in town.
You neglected to mention the neckbeard factor. There's a lot of gatekeeping fedora wearers in the hobby. You can tell which ones they are, because they complain about Games Workshop having zero tolerance for gatekeeping neckbeards.
@@ReallyBigBadAndy76 really? Do an image search of "neckbeard fedora" and be amazed. Yeah, neckbeards, incels, and others of the like are now associated. Which is sad cuz it's a nice hat style
I think I’m just weird as I like complex games and wish areas such as ww2 miniature, would go more into logistics. I wish fantasy/medieval games would go into sieges rather than just pitched battles. I know this is not to everyone’s cup of tea and that’s fair enough. It’s why solo gaming has definitely becoming more popular (not just the pandemic) but to create our own worlds.
Having trouble finding people to play some of the games i'm into, and that's why i have 2-4 armies for any game i play to have options for both of us. Rumbleslam is a great game for beginner hobbyists. Ya paint up 10 minis, five for each player and your good to go.
doing wargaming with a sheet of paper? get your hands on some free napoleonic wargaming rules (like Republique), cut the sheet of paper according to the unit size, write name of the units on it, done (and if you feel the need for it you can replace the paper units with miniatures later)
Warhammer 40k is usually seen as a difficult game because the standard version of play is matched play, which has a bunch of extra rules on top the game that dictate what you can actually use and how you play. It has other game modes, which are in the core rules, that I play regularly and find way more fun. Open play is the big one, it’s basically Warhammer 40k but you can use whatever you want, mix and match armies however you want, you and your friends or whoever you play with can just agree on rules to use, and rules to not use, and make up your own rules, because fun is what you are there for.
I highly suggest gruntz 15mm from as a great anachronistic system. If you want to play with 28mm models, just double the measurement values and it works just fine.
I started with the very crunchy AD&D 1st Edition. I have very fond memories of original Battletech. We played a fusion of the wargame mixed with Mechwarrior paper and pen, sort of switching off session to session between the two.
'crunchy' rules don't require multiple books - exhibit A: Advanced Squad Leader (yes, yes, it's multiple chapters but the rule chapters are logically organized and were all still designed to fit in that one binder - and that included the expansion chapters for new 'factions'. Whereas GW finds that a minimum fluff volume is 50% of the codex . . .
One issue I found was teaching people a game you too are new to. Ironically speaking of Malifaux, I and a couple friends of mine gave it a go during 2020 when it was safe to do so, and it was tricky to figure out. Once I started playing with experienced people it was totally quick and easy to pick up (by wargaming standards). I just hope more content creators begin to start playing other games and focus on teaching (malifaux university for example is great but wasn't around when i was trying to learn). More games that arent GW help both people who want variety, and for GW players, hopefully more competition encourages GW to chill with some of their anti consumer stuff.
When my brother and I started we started with Warhammer fantasy. We were both poor high school students. We use to use every and any miniatures or figurine as a proxy, plastic army men, Lego figures and anything else we could lay our hands on.
Right now I am basically playing 2 tabletop games where the rules are under 10 pages long. Makes it real easy to learn and go back and look in case one has a rules conundrum to go over. Used to play WRG ancients but just got sick of the way in which they were written and one had to spend a lot of game time going back through the rule book and figure out just where the rule was and just what did it mean.
I actually have tremors and yah its makes it hard and mine aren't the most severe but I do what I can and over time I'm slowly kinda learning to work around it.
Wargaming with paper and a pencil? Just learn origami! No pencil required...unless you want to draw little happy faces on all your soldiers, or sad faces as it may be for the front line troops.
The way our community address the "complexity" issue is to strip down the game of interest for new players. We use reduced point totals, little to no upgrades and a skirmish-sized battle area. This way, the new player gets a feel for movement, combat and general game flow. Plus, it helps the pace of play, so the new player isn't left with the impression the the game is slow because of its mechanics. As for "no one plays the game I like", sometimes you have to be the flag-bearer for a title. My FLGS had no Star Wars community at all. I had been looking to play X-Wing and was having no luck. Eventually, someone else came in asking about X-Wing and the owner got us together. Once people started seeing it played in the store, others started playing. This carried over to Legion and then Armada. Now my store has a decent Star Wars gaming community and it all started with just getting X-Wing visible in the store.
When I started playing 40k, my army was made up of 2nd hand marines from space crusade, and swapping the orks from the 2nd edition starter box with a marine player.
When is started I played with cut out card squares for troops. Maybe I’d get a picture on them. Original Warhammer came with card squares with great art. McDeath was my fav. I agree, its as costly as you want.
I'd like to recommend Deadzone third edition. It comes with a paper battlemap, heaps of modular terrain and two starter squads which are reasonably customizable. And it's not that pricey. Only thing is that the assembly of the minis is a little more complicated than the GW easy to build boxes. The rules are streamlined and you get the full army lists for all factions. #moreloveformantic
I'm currently cleaning, fixing and converting a handful of Chaos Cultists(eBay rescues IIRC) given to me before the pandemic, curiously more rewarding and therapeutic than building a brand-new box of Primaris...
Yeah, Warhammer is the Windows of Wargaming, just as D&D is the Windows of tabletop RPGs, for better or (mostly) worse. Kinda funny how it relates to all the myths, especially the first one.
I love the current Aliens board/skirmish game. Core game, plus 2 expansions and you have everything to play co-op or vs and requires only one set of models.
As a current Battletech player, I will say that Catalyst has done a great job of making the game more accessible to new players. Over the last few years, they have introduced 3 starter boxes that have super slimmed down rule books that allow you to grasp the majority of the game. It focuses on what most of us want out of a game of big stompy robots- the Mechs. They have also taken all of the Mech combat information from the Total Warfare and the two Tactical Operations manuals and dropped it into a single slimmer compendium; the Battlemech Manual. They also created an even simpler, less crunchy version of the game in Alpha Strike. They really allow you to decide on your own level of crunchiness these days and have products meant to appeal to every type of player. Me, I'm about the mechs and rarely play with any infantry or vehicles, because I like to keep it simpler, and I follow the fiction, but I don't need an in-depth recitation of the history of every mech variant as found the the TRO. Give me some record sheets, some models and let me get on the battlefield!
And don't forget, they have quick start rules for free on there website including free printable map sheets and you can play with gummi bears if you really want (wouldn't recommend as target ID and stickiness becomes an issue, but satisfying to each the mech that blew up) and generally speaking a very open and welcoming community
@@okamigau Was going to point this out as well. As opposed to Gummy bears, you can use paper Standees for Mechs and use the free rules to try out Battletech.
I agree with you on all this ... just a friendly thumbs up and pat on the back from a long time BT player :)
I've been playing BT off and on for about 30 years. I think the game has always been pretty accessible for players at all levels. Even in the '80s it was possible to play a relatively simple game using the basic starter box. I always thought the record sheets made the game look more intimidating that it actually was/is. CGL has definitely done a great job making it even more accessible, though.
I will also say BTech players tend to be VASTLY more accepting of poorTech/non-standard minis in official events.
It's pretty cool that if you want to flip factions for most factions the minis are the exact same and you don't even have to change your paint schemes because nearly every main faction, before the clans, had the same mechs and at least one unit in their vast armies that used whatever paint scheme you picked.
During deployments we drew our own miniatures for D&D. We got a ruler and made our own grid. One of my favorite campaigns to date.
I remember MRE cardboard boxes were super sturdy perfect for terrain and buildings.
One page rules games are a very good, easy and cheap way to get into wargaming.
Not to mention they have both paper minis as well as resin miniatures and even STL files for those with 3D printers.
As I've grown older, I've come more to the conclusion that having complex rules is overrated. Having a lot of sub-systems or additional layers of complexity is not, in and of itself, good. It may be to a person's _taste,_ but taste is subjective. There's no rule saying a game must be more complicated in order to be good.
It's why I prefer Grimdark Future from One Page Rules far more than 40K.
One Page Rules all the way.. I still like my skirmish games a bit more crunchy but for a straight up TT wargame it's much better than 9th edition imop.. 40k has too many rules with too much book spread, situational tactics that don't add to my fun and pointless units which never see the light of day.
Haven’t tried one page rules yet. 40k 9th feels fun and fine for the most part in a casual setting - a setting where folks are reminding you of optional stratagems because there’s too many to keep tabs on, and folks aren’t taking the absolute best min/max. I’ll agree 40k is very complicated. And I also agree complicated isn’t automatically better.
For me, the question is: how well do the rules successfully create the feeling generally understood to be the setting.
Take Necromunda, for example. It has a complex morale system,a complex system for determining the results of unreliable weapons firing, and a complex leveling/progression system. Given that it is a game about disorganized gangs having street brawls, that complexity fits perfectly.
The reason 40k fails atm for me is that a lot of the complexity doesn't really serve anything, and the level of over the top lethality that the complexity causes (as most of the layers of special rules amount to offensive buffs) actively seems to work against a setting that is generally known for FEARLESS WARRIORS IN IMPENETRABLE SPACE ARMOR and then you look at competitive games and it's basically a "Competitive Cowering In Fear Simulator"
This is why I went to Mantics Kings of War from 40k.
I moved my kids (10 and under) from Heroquest to OPR Skirmish and they took to it easily and loved it more than Heroquest! I skipped GW models and went with Mantic, Osprey's Oathmark series, and some other random additions and we have 5 really good skirmish armies to play with. Best thing is - they will finish homework so we can play a game or 2 on a weekday night! Kill Team and Warcry are great and all, but simple is better and more fun IMHO.
I inherited my father's FASA battletech library years ago, and wasn't until recently I had the ability to get models. Now that I have made time to paint these models, my friends (dnd and 40k nerds) are suddenly interested. Sometimes a little push makes things fall together.
I got into One Page Rules recently. I don't think I'll play Warhammer again in any foreseeable future.
Remember too that, if you play a GW game, the only time you 'have to' use GW miniatures is in an 'official' game i.e. in-store, tournament, etc. For home or local club games, there are plenty of 'proxy' miniatures out there for a LOT less money.
As a side note, being deployed and when we had time to uwhine, we played many wargames with what ever we had to be the miniatures. So the excuse or myth that you need miniatures or certain things to play is crazy and you don't as long as all are having fun.
My personal experience to get a cheap entry into wargames was to just buy Hate boardgame and run frostgrave. It's pretty fun.
I just a copy of HATE yesterday. I needed barbarians for my D&D campaign.
@@Decado1628 How did you get a copy of HATE just this year? I thought it was a Kickstarter-only board game.
@@DeyaViews I got a copy from Miniature Market.
I would also HIGHLY recommend One Page Rules to anyone, new or old players. The rules are pretty light but still convey nuance, cover different scales of game, from skirmish to enormous armies, are miniature agnostic, and are totally FREE. I
I have long maintained that a company who manufactures rules AND models is always going to sacrifice rules balance and integrity in favour of making new model releases more powerful, which defeats the object of a tactical game entirely on my opinion. That's why OPR is such a good alternative for me. Since discovering OPR, it has been the only ruleset I have used.
Well, that's true for now, but I don't like direction opr is taking. They're now effectively selling armies, digitally as well as physically. In particular armies for which there are no proxies.
If you want to play eternal dynasty (as opposed to Tao coalition) you have to use their models and either print them yourself or buy preprinted from their affiliates.
I think you maybe missed the point. While I don't necessarily disagree with your point about the new Eternal whatsits, the point of OPR is that you can feel free to use models from any system, not just 40k. You can also freely use proxies. Nobody at the gaming club is going to tell you “you can't use THOSE models to represent THAT faction! " That's because there is no meta or competitive scene or snobbishness, it's just about having some casual fun with less rules weight and smaller armies, without greatly supporting companies who charge you for models AND rules. Also, as I mentioned, the rules are FREE, so if they need to make some minis to justify the time and effort they put into the free rules, that's fine with me. Nobody is making me but them, and I won't either. Still, I get some of your point completely, I hope that they don't go TOO far with these new factions with very few decent stand-in models from manufacturers other than OPR. So yeah, I do slightly share your concern.
One page rules or simplified rules is the way to go. Fantastic video. Keep up the good work.
I knew that staying up way too late would pay off! Thanks for the new content!
Slight correction, Battletech is owned by Topps, and licensed by Catalyst Games. Also, Harmony Gold can still go to hell.
I know this comment is a year old, but I will never turn down the chance to second that Harmony Gold can go to hell. All my homies hate Harmony Gold.
Not just Harmony Gold, but US TV broadcast limitations. For example, in 'Battle of the Planets', the US localization of Science Ninja Team Gatchaman, all of the scenes with 7-Zark-7 and 1-Rover-1 were added in the US to pad episodes back out to a 30-minute format after they'd removed all of the footage that couldn't be shown on American broadcast TV.
Yay love the Battletech shoutout!
I'm impressed that Uncle Atom didn't take the obvious opportunity to promote an accessible, inexpensive and fun game - Reign In Hell !
I did the paper proxies when I first started playing 40k back in the day and then tested various factions I might have wanted then once I made a choice I then bought the minis
That’s a smart way to do it, especially for testing out factions
I discovered One Page Rules: Grimdark Future as a good replacement for 40k and was inspired to back into the hobby because now I had a game system that wasn't nearly as hard to get into because of rules bloat. After being burnt out on a bunch of games (tactical and rpg) having too much "rules bloat," I've learned to go after games that definitely forgo having a rule for every tiny little detail.
I know some people have fun with that, but I've found that the complex/crunchy the rules, the more time everyone at the table has to flip open the books to double check the rules and less time actually playing the game.
When it comes to the miniatures, I just go with whatever looks cool to me. And I can always find a place for any mini I acquire, whether it be a tactics game or an rpg.
Painting wise, it's probably my favorite part of the hobby. But that's because it calms me and is a great creative outlet for my depression and ADHD. But nobody needs to go the great lengths I go to get their army "table ready." I honestly don't mind if someone brings to the table grey plastic or even paper minis, as long as they're having fun that is all that matters.
I like the Battletech thumbnail. 👍
Big stompy robots. Thanks for watching!
Onepagerules does what it says on the tin. Very straightforward simple rules which create very strategic games without needing 5 books to keep referring to.
It's true about turning someone that has no interest in the hobby, into someone that absolutely loves the hobby. Because it happened to me 👍 one of my friends wanted someone to play with so taught me AOS and the lore and now I love it. Its fantastic 👏
the main issue seems to stem from GW games being the face of the hobby, people see 40k, and AoS and think "This must be the baseline" but they really aren't...
Luckily I grew up when GW was far more customer and kid friendly regarding £$. Fit set I got was Necromunda for £40. Come with 2 gangs, full set of awesome buildings and really in depth rule and source books which included everything for all the gangs (when released). Absolute bargain. £12 for a metal gang and you had enough for unlimited games. If like me you was lucky enough to have a best friend who also played you got one set each and had enough terrain to fill a 4x4 board comfortably. Awesome times never to be repeated with how much GW is now. Even Necro needs cards and gang codex.
I’m finding I love papercraft terrain which is relatively inexpensive. I make it so it folds flat to save space and if I get tired of it I can recycle it and make new terrain.
And I only play “easy” games and swingier the better.
It’s easy to find people to play when you play solo!
But also. What is that shirt?! Love it.
I think I would probably be more into non-GW stuff if anyone at all played it in my area. GW was our only hobby store (other than comic shops that could bring stuff in on order) until recently.
Yup, my area is all 40k and X-wing. I really enjoy both games, but I’m getting angry at the new xwing overlords as they try and complicate the game more “we are making it more accessible” …. By making the rules more complicated to reduce penalty for mistakes so everyone just flies at each other jousting hoping for lucky dice. No thanks AMG
Me and my partner have really good fun just playing through things like the Recruit edition rulebook for 40k, or the Battle in Balin's Tomb Board game from MESBG. Low model count and easier rules means there's less buy in for her, and I can keep painting my minis between club days.
The trade off is I do have to watch the occasional film I'm not usually interested in but it's a fair swap, a few hours of my time for a few hours of hers. Plus, turns out Dirty Dancing really isn't that bad. Hmm, maybe I should get a Patrick Swayze lookalike miniature next...
Rest In Peace Patrick Swayze. Thanks for watching!
You should get two Swayze miniatures! One from Dirty Dancing, another when he levels up in a campaign -> then you use a his mini from Roadhouse :D
Great video! I think it'd be interesting to see a video on, say, your top 10 or 20 mini agonistic "buy this one book and play" wargames/skirmish games from as many directions as possible. That could shine a light on a ton of more obscure games, I think!
He would be inevitably biased as he has made a miniatures agnostic game by the name of Reign in Hell with Vince Venturella, but I too would enjoy a top 10
I recommend this book , “Wargaming on a Budget” by Iain Dickie. It shows how to build and play a lot hours with simple materials.
The most difficult thing for me has been looking at what I've painted, and looking at what other's have painting and realizing that while I might think my models are shit, they're at least better than bare plastic.
Knowing I will improve the more I paint is both an incentive and hill to climb
For me I had to get over that idea that I have go get to that level :)
If you are having fun really working on your skill, then amazing. But I've come to the realisation: my current results are good enough for me and improve my enjoymrnt when I play with the models. So I just keep doing what is working for me instead of trying new techniques every other model and I finally enjoy painting again :)
I had my nieces over for a painting day recently and while they were working on My Little Pony miniatures I painted up a mini from a set I had started working on 7 or 8 years ago and then forgotten about. Comparing my earlier work to my current work was shocking. I remember being pretty pleased with myself way back then but the difference in quality was incredible. I am infinitely more skilled now and you will be too if you continue to paint and take the time to study different techniques. Its an incredible hobby, it's rewarding, relaxing and a great outlet for creativity.
Really appreciate this video and I hope a lot of folks watch it. I guess the real issue is that in a hobby dominated by GW they kinda get to set the narrative. To most folks wargaming = Warhammer. A cycle I’d like to see broken. I’m a 40k fan but there are so many other less expensive and just as awesome games out there and more folks should be able to find them 🙂
Deadzone 3.0 rocks
I tried since 6th edition 40k to get people in to malifaux, batman, bolt action and infinity. I was told 'but there's not enough players whereas with 40k I can always get a game' so its a self-perpetuating problem. It's really difficult to get a solid base of people to play a game with great rules and great minis.
@@OldManRogers I agree and always faced the same issue. I’ve found as my gaming group matured folks were more up for different things. But that group is also a lot smaller now.
Considering the insane hold that GW has on people, that won't change in our lifetimes.
The example I’ve used for point #1: Bird Watching. You either spend thousands of dollars traveling internationally to migratory paths, buy the best binoculars, hire guides, purchases all the books, etc.
Or you can just sit on your back porch looking at your feeder.
I'm lucky enough to have a wargaming club on my doorstep that meets every Sunday. However, even then I find it hard to get a game of Kill Team, Warcry or even Underworlds as they're just not games most club members are interested in. To be fair, they've got a great historical scene which has slowly been turning my head.
I definitely agree whit most of the points you made. It is only as expensive as we allow it to be. I play Death Guard but I don't own Mortarion, my army is rather small and I can't justify spending £80 on ONE mini (even a big one), that's a cost of a whole new game. I play WH40K but I only play with my son, therefore never had any problems with finding someone to play with, we just both started Warhammer moving from board games. And because we only play at home we can make the game to be as easy as we want it to be, and we can take from the game what we want.
I would buy a 3D printer as it would allow a cheaper buy in to multiple tabletop games 200$ for a good resin printer and 20 bucks for resin every once and awhile. Now boom you are able to play games that are no longer in production or even current modern games
I've really been enjoying your livestreams on Twitch. For me, my desire to paint is so strong, I want to paint every single day. It doesn't always happen due to work and kids...
I can’t paint every day due to work and no kids (but other responsibilities, like producing videos for TH-cam) and some weeks, the only painting time I get is during my Twitch streams. But it’s okay - some is better than none. Thanks for watching!
I picked up Mice and Mystics for our 10 year old for Christmas. We've had a few games under our belt that's been a lot of learning the rules but it's been fun just playing a mini game together at the dining table. Eventually I want to try some simple kill team games once I get enough minis painted. So far so good!
Many wargaming compaines at one point would out rules for beginners. That made them appealing, now it seems like that part is not important to many companies. When 3rd ED of D&D came out and the push to the CORE RULE BOOK SET I think really set us down a path of things getting out of hand for rule books. Where you might have ONE thick rule book, that offered everything from beginners to so advanced that you just go with the fight was over before you roll dice. That was fun, but I agree if I need to dig through 5 books just to play a game...yeah no not happening.
Every wargame out there can be played at it's most simplest level and still be fun, and we need to get back to that.
FASA Freedonia Aerospace Administration
A reference to Duck Soup, I asked them once back in the 90s.
I've gotten into the hobby at the age of 36 and went cold turkey into 40k. Not the easiest road to be honest. I joined a very nice group of local players who eased me into the rules and painting. The most daunting thing was remembering all the rules for my Thousand Sons army.
I tried to get into the hobby a bit earlier in life but I went to a 2v2 game once and it became pretty hostile because of an argument about some rules. 'not my crowd' was my conclusion at that time. Glad I gave it another chance because it's really fun. I've moved more into smaller actual boardgames now, but I still play 40k games from time to time.
The way I like to look at what level of hobby supplies I should buy is by asking if what I'm buying is higher quality than I'm capable of taking advantage of; for example, I chose Army Painter for my first paint set even though it's not the best because I'm not good enough for it to matter yet
I had a friend who knew guys who would play warhammer fantasy using pieces of paper with unit names written on them. So you could and there are people who get into it pretty cheap, with free rules and unit profiles, if you are really into the game mechanics some paper and a pen is a feasible way to go
original fantasy battles rule book had pages at the back of the book of units to photocopy. they expected you to play with these items until you built your full army.
@@bruced648 that's interesting, I did not know that
We have a lively community where I live for 40K and AoS but getting set times with people can be a butt unless you just catch that one random who is looking to play too last minute. In comes my friend whom got a much nicer job and with that wants to deep dive into hobbies he couldn't previously touch. Ended up getting him an Elite Edition box for 40K and though we have yet to play, I have someone much more reliable and willing to count on to play with now. Family and friends are such a blessing to have in this hobby.
Great points. In particular those who find it hard to paint or model. I would love if you did a video for those who cannot do this and discuss the options available to them.
Airfix and Revell make easy click kits. I recently pointed out to someone these kits bring joy to those who miss modelling on health grounds. They called them childrens versions.
Warlord games released different coloured sprues for opposing armies.
GW did it for some of their sets such as Stormstrike. Although they still need assembly.
As for paints, you could just dip in contrast/ shade paint. Or buy painted from ebay.
I have seen paper plastic armies. High quality stuff from Paperboys or free to download printables.
Arcknight do a range that look great.
Those are really good points. No reason someone shouldn’t enjoy taking part in the hobby just because they can’t/don’t want to do the building and painting.
@@NightfireGamingYT I had a friend who loved Airfix and suffered a traumatic injury that prevented him doing the kits. Turned to Cobi. Like lego but armour and weapons. So left them enjoy the build.
OnePageRules offers PDF cutouts of armies for warhammer 40k/fantasy or for use with their own rules set.
I've definitely seen war games played with paper dolls. Pictures of soldiers printed, cut out and folded to stand up.
They seem to work really well with games where units aren't made up of individual mini's and wounds are tracked with individual model removal. I noticed that many units in historical games tended to be several multi-mini bases, instead of individual separate mini's. Kings of War and Warmaster do a similar thing with multiple mini's on large bases.
I was just thinking a lot of Warhammer kits have 1:1 sized image on the back of the box. Just cut it out and you have a great stand in for your army.
There was an old Battletech release in the 80s that was literally just cardboard cutouts of the mechs, so yeah it's been seen before.
@@Pariahwulfen I had that. It came with a book that had pre-filled out record sheets for the primary version of all the mechs from Technical Readout 3025. They later released a series of books that had the sheets for all the variants mentioned in that Technical Readout.
Another myth is "You always have to play the latest edition"
Now obviously if you want to play in tournaments, this isn't the case. But a bunch of my friends were just stilling around reminiscing about how we didn't like 9th edition of 40K and how we all though 4th edition was just so much simpler and more fun. Then, like inspiration from God himself, it dawned on us that we could just grab our old 4th edition stuff and keep playing what we liked. Somehow it seemed unthinkable at the time but now we literally play 4th edition 40K with armies made from Legos (because sometimes you just wanna try out a 1,500 point Guard list with 292 guardsman and nothing else to see if it works at all)
Also, Battletech is crunchy, but i wouldn't call it THICC. The vast majority of the rules in Tactical and Strategic Operations are just different ways to play. Catalyst has an AWESOME beginner box that teaches you how to play in about 20 pages. Thats really the only core rules you need to play 90% of the stuff out there. And even if thats too much, Alpha Strike's rules are something like 4 pages long.
I have some gaming buddies from high school who still play 3rd Ed 40k...and who have all their old 2nd ed stuff, too. Absolutely nothing requires anyone to play (or buy) the current edition. I had sold off a lot of my Dark Angels from 2nd and 3rd ed, and when I started getting back into the game, I just used Primaris marines as normal marines and played with 3rd ed rules. That obviously won't fly in an official event, but nothing stops us doing it in a casual game with friends.
Back when GW announced 9th edition, I encountered quite a few people whining about how they were being forced to upgrade to 9th. They all turned super shitty with me when I dared to suggest that they could just keep playing 8th if they wanted to. I laughed at them and told them if they weren't bright enough to understand that the rules from the 8th edition books didn't disappear when 9th released, or that their armies wouldn't melt if they weren't playing the current version, they didn't have any reason to whine about GW "sticking it to them;" they should be whining about their own stupidity and weak will.
Me and my fiancé landed two boxes of north star miniatures (mechanicus grey primer to pull them together), grabbed a rule book and had a blast cardboard crafting terrain. Whole thing cost less than 60$ and we got 50+ miniatures. Ez pz. Hell, those north star boxes are 20 minis each, you could play a whole game with just the frost-grave soldiers
I built a Reaper Bones warband for This Is Not A Test to convince my friends they could get into the game for like $20.
The hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be.
Again, prepare to be the most lonely gamer at the store then.
We've been playing battletech alpha strike and having great fun with that and after all these decades we are dipping our toes into classic battletech for the first time. We still lean into indie games: pulp alley, song of blades and heros, reign in hell (shamless plug there), and play the occasional warcry and kill team. I like hamburgers I just don't want to have them everyday. Once you have a skirmish force or two, it is possible to use them for many different games. Then things can get really inexpensive for a lot of different games.
As a battletech player I bought a pile of older 3rd Edition starter set plastic minis. Alongside some of the Ironwind Metals for Battle Armour and artillery/transports. Relatively cheap buy in.
As a good example of a simpler ruleset id also reccomend Reign in Hell.
I've learned that I "save money" by spending it where it counts. I bought an airbrush, admittedly expensive, but it has saved me in paint, time, and priming sprays. Using the RPG mentality of getting ideas and materials from everywhere has helped me so much too. Thanks for this video!
Airbrush was great purchase for priming. Would have issues finding the brand of spray can primer I liked in stock. Now...I got a bottle of Vallejo white, grey, and black(the workhorse) and haven't come close to depleting them. It's also great for trying out zenithal highlighting.
All so true. I have to say, my favourite wargame from a design standpoint at the moment is aSoIaF, the manual for which is like 36 pages.
And that advice about friends/family is so true. Last year a friend and I split a Pelennor Fields box. I don’t play Rohan and didn’t want to start a new army at the time, so I gave those models to my sister because she loves LotR and specifically Rohan. Flash forward a year, she’s started 2nd and 3rd armies for MESBG, and has started aSoIaF and 40k
When I was age 10 I found Metagames wargames (OGRE, Chitin 1, Rivets) and immediately started making my own games with paper and pencil. Little triangle tent standups with stats and crudely drawn war machines for my games based on the sci-fi books I was reading at the time. Good times, didn't really cost me anything either. :)
I Love it, how you try to get the pressure out of the Hobby. 😊
I got into the hobby with the original version of Age of Sigmar. 4 page rules! I still use that to introduce my friends and family into the game. My second game and still one of my favorites was Frostgrave. I have multiple warbands and I can host game night for all my favorite games.
I recently started wh40k and during the painting it dawned pretty quickly that it is exactly as hard as I want it to be. I got a free cultist from my game shop, slapped khorne red all over him after priming, painted his gun and his mask and he was surprisingly presentable. I could agonize over his details and spend hours blending and doing highlights but if I had 11 other cultists I would feel little shame throwing him in with them.
Issue with the whole "you don't need to play the game with a lot of rules" is you need to have someone that wants to play those more "obscure" and less known games with you, otherwise i'm just collecting miniatures without no one to play against.
Especially if you live in the middle of fucking nowhere (like me)
it's also difficult to persuade someone to spend money on yet ANOTHER tabletop game compared to the rest of them, because they'd rather be playing whatever tabletop they're into or heck someone new that isn't interested in it in the first place. Because tabletop gaming is expensive. Especially for a new person that looks at the miniatures and rule books etc.
and no, my cousin, sibling, parents, whatever else don't want to play something like 40k, bolt action or Infinity with me as they think the rules are too hard, and want to play Ludo or UNO instead because the rules are simplified, i have asked them multiple times.
Neither does my friends because it is still looked as an immensly nerdy activity and it just does not interest them.
When you live in a place where there isnt many options makes it immensly hard to play with anybody and when you look online you realize that the only people that do play said tabletop game is in the other side of the country.
especially in the country side where seeing other people is a rarity.
Rest i agree on.
Uncle Atom, I love yur life concept hacks to these myths, highly entertaining and comical. Great stuff, great work!!!😎😎😎👍👍👍🔥
Malifaux is still my favorite system! I love the models, I love the sculpts, I love the feel of the game!
My "cheap" entry into wargames was to buy the most basic army painter set and one box of troops. Nowadays I still buy one box at a time, and really really hone in on painting. Just kinda stretching my money over time. It took a year to play a game, but last year would have seen few games anyway
The longest wargame I ever played was a massive game of classic battletech: A Clan Binary Nova against a reinforced company of 6 lances (24 mechs). It took about 8 hours to finish, it was a great time but I do not have that sort of time anymore: Now I use Alpha Strike, much faster.
been playing battletech since 1st ed (Battledroids). our battles are usually battalion v battalion, or larger of mixed forces. our games last between 4 to 6 hours. a company v company battle is a 2 to 3 hour game. yes, this is classic, not alpha or destiny.
I kinda wish they could find a middle ground between CBT and AS. CBT is good for small battles and AS is good for big battles, but I don't like either for anything in between. CBT is too detailed and takes too long, while AS is to simplified and units seem to lose their uniqueness when just boiled down to a bunch of numbers.
@@JMcMillen check out Death From Above Wargaming’s Battletech Destiny system. Less record keeping than CBT, more depth than AS.
@@105Gunner Given the number of cross-references in those rules to rule books I don't have, I couldn't really tell how it might play.
If they want the rules to be simple, they all need to be in the same place.
We once did a a Cluster of Clan 50 mechs + Elementals vs the groups merc unit of about 60-70 mechs + tanks and infantry. It was the final battle of a 3 year RPG game where we did several of the battles on table top.
Took us about 100+ hours to run. One of the players gave us a room in his basement for the 2 months irl it took to get those hours done in.
Battletech Alpha Strike is great! And in the beginning not soooo complicated. - By the way.... Nordic Weasel Games. Playing all great.
I think you put something at the very end that should have been at the beginning. Skirmish games are probably the best way to start playing, especially if it leads into another, fuller game, like the Battletech Quickstart set, or Warcry or the like. I also think games like Marvel Crisis Protocol are a great starting point that can be very cheap. Also ask people to borrow things. I've taught people how to paint with my own gear many times.
TAU FOR SALE!!!
That last point is very true. Almost everyone I play Kill Team with is someone I taught to play at this point.
Another good solution to that is try to find tournaments or events even if you have to travel some
The photography thing really hits home. I'm a decently successful photographer and I get people asking for gear advice. They'll get so hyped up on the features of a Leica or a pro-grade Canon or Olympus and my question is always "why do you need those features as a beginner?" My daily driver is a 20 year-old, consumer grade canon and it does everything I need it to do. If someone bought me a Leica, I'd love it, but I'm not going to shell out for it myself because my "crappy" camera works fine at a fraction of the price
WHOO BATTLETECH SHOUTOUT
Cost isn’t just up to you. It’s up to you AND the other human beings you play it with. If nobody wants to play against your paper cutouts,or play your cheap games, then you aren’t playing.
Kings of War is a great Rank&Flank war-game that is very cheap to get in to. It works using units, not individual models, and each unit has a specific footprint, so you can use a correctly sized rectangle of chipboard to represent your unit on the table. You can trial entire armies that way while you learn the rules. Units interact with terrain in a very straightforward way so 2D pieces of cardboard with wobbly edges is all you need. You just write the type and height of terrain on top for everyone to see. The rules are free to download. And the softback gamers edition rulebook has everything you need plus all the army lists and is cheap to buy. In fact you get it free in the two-player starter boxes. Of course you can go as mad as you want with spending, but if you are only used to GW’s business model, Kings of War will be a refreshing change.
I've been involved in all aspects of the gaming industry for over 40 years. as you said, the financial cost is what you are willing to spend. I find the cost of 'time', to be more than financial. any activity you choose to do will require some amount of financial support.
as for game complexity, I like to play battletech with alot more detail added. the GW product line is made to be a meat grinder with high body count. as for RPG, when I was younger, I wanted alot of detail. now I use a 4x6 index card for a character sheet. anything larger, has too much detail for me. the game I currently play uses 2D6 and each character has between 7 to 15 skills. there are no base characteristics or attributes.
Why I enjoy playin' Battletech over Warhammer 40,000, simple, the complex rules that if I go hey could I do this, look in Advance Rules book and hey, I cam! Plus I can build an army for cheap.
one thing i really enjoy about Battletech is that you can make it as easy or complicated as you like...I am really enjoying the Alpha Strike way to play of late...it's fast, fun, and still gives you that "big stompy robot" action without taking three weeks to play two turns. It's a lot harder to do that with GW games. I used to like Kill Team because it was smaller, easier to get into, and you could omit some of the complexity if you wanted but they wrecked that game.
I've long been the "teacher" of outlier games and I just cannot do it anymore. I'm really tired of finding an interesting game and wanting to get into it but then I realize I have to be the "champion" of that game in my area and I lose enthusiasm. In this area it is Magic and 40K, some AoS and Pokemon, but that's really it. We lost the local gaming shop in town here, and the hobby shop too. There's still one place that has some gaming stuff, but it is mostly just those four. If I go to other areas, then I can find some other games on the shelves at some stores, but it still isn't easy and it is nearly impossible to get outlier games outside of the "big four" to take off...and that was even before all the current plague.
I've taken to playing some of the GW boxed games like the Space Marine Adventures line and Dan Verssen games that are designed (many of them anyway) with a solitaire mode. The Rise of the Orks game is really fun, IMO, but far too many "40K purists" crap on it and the others like it because it isn't "proper" 40K so it must be dumb. At least it allows me to play with my models and even inspires some hobby creativity. And I can do it at my own house without worrying about nurgle's plague. :p
Im kinda in the same boat as you are, I too play BattleTech Alpha Strike, mainly its cost and ease of game play, the major problem is getting people into it, aside from living in a rural city in Alberta, most of the community is made up entirely of Pokemon/Magic players with a Super Smash bros group thrown into the mix, we had a Wargaming group at one point at our big Downtown game store, but thanks to the current owners Incompetence and abusive behaviour, we unfortunately lost that group after that groups admin left. Now im trying to keep it alive in a small comics and collectable shop in the north end. pretty much My BT group may well be the last of its kind in town.
You neglected to mention the neckbeard factor. There's a lot of gatekeeping fedora wearers in the hobby. You can tell which ones they are, because they complain about Games Workshop having zero tolerance for gatekeeping neckbeards.
Is a fedora associated with neck beards? I just hadn’t heard that one before.
@@ReallyBigBadAndy76 really? Do an image search of "neckbeard fedora" and be amazed. Yeah, neckbeards, incels, and others of the like are now associated. Which is sad cuz it's a nice hat style
I think I’m just weird as I like complex games and wish areas such as ww2 miniature, would go more into logistics. I wish fantasy/medieval games would go into sieges rather than just pitched battles. I know this is not to everyone’s cup of tea and that’s fair enough. It’s why solo gaming has definitely becoming more popular (not just the pandemic) but to create our own worlds.
Having trouble finding people to play some of the games i'm into, and that's why i have 2-4 armies for any game i play to have options for both of us. Rumbleslam is a great game for beginner hobbyists. Ya paint up 10 minis, five for each player and your good to go.
doing wargaming with a sheet of paper? get your hands on some free napoleonic wargaming rules (like Republique), cut the sheet of paper according to the unit size, write name of the units on it, done (and if you feel the need for it you can replace the paper units with miniatures later)
Warhammer 40k is usually seen as a difficult game because the standard version of play is matched play, which has a bunch of extra rules on top the game that dictate what you can actually use and how you play.
It has other game modes, which are in the core rules, that I play regularly and find way more fun. Open play is the big one, it’s basically Warhammer 40k but you can use whatever you want, mix and match armies however you want, you and your friends or whoever you play with can just agree on rules to use, and rules to not use, and make up your own rules, because fun is what you are there for.
As someone working on creating my own ruleset, your vids are great, thanks
14:18 I’ve had this experience and painting FOR them can turn into friendships and more time for rolling dice :).
Me: "Kingdom Death? What that?"
*Looks it up*
Me: "Oh... my ... that's... different...."
I highly suggest gruntz 15mm from as a great anachronistic system. If you want to play with 28mm models, just double the measurement values and it works just fine.
I started with the very crunchy AD&D 1st Edition. I have very fond memories of original Battletech. We played a fusion of the wargame mixed with Mechwarrior paper and pen, sort of switching off session to session between the two.
'crunchy' rules don't require multiple books - exhibit A: Advanced Squad Leader (yes, yes, it's multiple chapters but the rule chapters are logically organized and were all still designed to fit in that one binder - and that included the expansion chapters for new 'factions'. Whereas GW finds that a minimum fluff volume is 50% of the codex . . .
One issue I found was teaching people a game you too are new to. Ironically speaking of Malifaux, I and a couple friends of mine gave it a go during 2020 when it was safe to do so, and it was tricky to figure out. Once I started playing with experienced people it was totally quick and easy to pick up (by wargaming standards). I just hope more content creators begin to start playing other games and focus on teaching (malifaux university for example is great but wasn't around when i was trying to learn). More games that arent GW help both people who want variety, and for GW players, hopefully more competition encourages GW to chill with some of their anti consumer stuff.
Great video, the LPOTL shirt is awesome!
After many years of playing the big companies games i tend to look at the smaller publishers like Osprey or even 7tv etc.
When my brother and I started we started with Warhammer fantasy. We were both poor high school students. We use to use every and any miniatures or figurine as a proxy, plastic army men, Lego figures and anything else we could lay our hands on.
My current RPG group is my workmates. We also play boardgames together. It's definitely possible to find people to play with.
I play 3rd edition 40K you get all the rules you need for less than £15.
Right now I am basically playing 2 tabletop games where the rules are under 10 pages long. Makes it real easy to learn and go back and look in case one has a rules conundrum to go over. Used to play WRG ancients but just got sick of the way in which they were written and one had to spend a lot of game time going back through the rule book and figure out just where the rule was and just what did it mean.
I actually have tremors and yah its makes it hard and mine aren't the most severe but I do what I can and over time I'm slowly kinda learning to work around it.
Wargaming with paper and a pencil? Just learn origami! No pencil required...unless you want to draw little happy faces on all your soldiers, or sad faces as it may be for the front line troops.
The way our community address the "complexity" issue is to strip down the game of interest for new players. We use reduced point totals, little to no upgrades and a skirmish-sized battle area. This way, the new player gets a feel for movement, combat and general game flow. Plus, it helps the pace of play, so the new player isn't left with the impression the the game is slow because of its mechanics.
As for "no one plays the game I like", sometimes you have to be the flag-bearer for a title. My FLGS had no Star Wars community at all. I had been looking to play X-Wing and was having no luck. Eventually, someone else came in asking about X-Wing and the owner got us together. Once people started seeing it played in the store, others started playing. This carried over to Legion and then Armada. Now my store has a decent Star Wars gaming community and it all started with just getting X-Wing visible in the store.
When I started playing 40k, my army was made up of 2nd hand marines from space crusade, and swapping the orks from the 2nd edition starter box with a marine player.
2nd hand marines for me too. 1-2 years later 2nd hand Necron army. Only some years later did I repaint those and started expanding.
All the way back in the 90s, my entry into minis gaming was Imaginystic's Buggybash. Still in my collection, still not played at all.
When is started I played with cut out card squares for troops. Maybe I’d get a picture on them. Original Warhammer came with card squares with great art. McDeath was my fav. I agree, its as costly as you want.
I'd like to recommend Deadzone third edition. It comes with a paper battlemap, heaps of modular terrain and two starter squads which are reasonably customizable.
And it's not that pricey.
Only thing is that the assembly of the minis is a little more complicated than the GW easy to build boxes.
The rules are streamlined and you get the full army lists for all factions.
#moreloveformantic
Best tip for miniature painting with hand/finger tremors: Stippling 👍
I'm currently cleaning, fixing and converting a handful of Chaos Cultists(eBay rescues IIRC) given to me before the pandemic, curiously more rewarding and therapeutic than building a brand-new box of Primaris...
Yeah, Warhammer is the Windows of Wargaming, just as D&D is the Windows of tabletop RPGs, for better or (mostly) worse. Kinda funny how it relates to all the myths, especially the first one.
0:38 I laughed waaay too hard at this gag.
I love the current Aliens board/skirmish game. Core game, plus 2 expansions and you have everything to play co-op or vs and requires only one set of models.