Ok I'm going to add my own tiny detail to your rewrite of the Haunted Gallery Scene: As Elizabeth stands frozen, her hand goes to the strand of pearls she wears at her neck- the same strand 'of little value' that Katherine gave her when they first met.
Brava Alice! Thank you for calling out sexual harassment and abuse. Once you’ve experienced either or both you know it when you see it or hear/read about it. Poor Katherine! She was the victim of inattentive adults who abdicated their responsibilities as she was growing up and then was a victim of the double standard once she was made the queen. Was there no “normal” adult woman in the entire court who could’ve helped guide her through the entire process of being a responsible adult woman? Lady Rochford was certainly NOT the adult to help Katherine. Her story makes me incredibly sad and angry. I do hope that there’s a special place in hell for Henry VIII. He was a psychopathic monster.
Re: Lynne Frederick... Apparently she was DESPERATE to play Meggie in The Thorn Birds (1983) and even dyed her hair red to get the part. When the choice came down to Rachel Ward or Jane Seymour (Yeah, no pun intended), she was crushed. Ward got the part and played it well but having read the book, I think Lynne would have been the superior choice BY FAR. (I also think Seymour would have been better tbh) Imagine her and Richard Chamberlain acting together... Then again, Meggie is another woman at the mercy of a much older man who always put his ambition first, so maybe it would have been too much for her in the end. What was done both to Lynne and Kathryn was unforgivable. I hope that they are sharing eternal bliss in Paradise together at least.
Repeated sexual assault can also make it more difficult to get pregnant. I have multiple times about women who became infertile because of assault. And since Katherine was very young when they started abusing her, we also don't know how violent these assaults were.
@@TheConman761 She wasn't of a Consenting age and was taken advantage of by Her Teacher. That's Sexual Assault. There's a reason why Teachers aren't allowed to have Sex with their students. It doesn't matter how eager The Student may appear, the Tutor or Teacher is still commiting sexual assault.
@@eamonndeane587 no they were of similar age there wasn’t any sexual abuse involved. She was in the same bed as her friend and her friend complained of the noises both of them were making while having sex.
I’m looking into Tudor history PhD options so I can study Kathryn’s life without feeling like I’m just rehashing things that other people have said about her. I’m also thinking I’ll write an adaptation of her life (book, film, or miniseries) intertwined with those of Elizabeth I and Jane Grey.
As a lifelong learner of history and particularly the tudor history, I love your video. Katherine Howard was such a tragic figure that history did so dirty. She was a child thrown to the wolves, by all the people who should have been protecting her. I am so happy to see the attitudes changing around her. So many young woman suffer the same because we defend ourselves. We suffer so much in our society for just being women, transwomen, non-binary, transmen, and men.
This is timely in one of the most tragic ways imaginable. I'm always grateful for your work but wow this must have taken such an emotional toll on you this time. Thank you for your work, please take care of yourself.
I think the narrative has also changed largely because of the emergence of the study of women’s history and the history of gender. Especially with historians such as Joan Scott taking the time to truly examine the effects of gender on how we see historical figures and talk about history. Rather than, taking the binary for granted and failing to consider different experiences.
I want to fight people who call Katherine any variation of "slut," "whore," "wanton," etc. It won't bring Katherine back, but I still want them to catch these hands.
You are absolutely right, it is disgusting and so, so frustrating, when people use these horrible, disgusting words about her. That's very harmful and unfair to her... Especially when we know very little about the real Katherine, she was so young and terribly neglected. We don't know what she really was like. We don't know her personally or her true thoughts about Mannox, Dereham and Culpeper.
Have been looking forward to this video for ages! Thank you, Alice of Sherwood, for all your material on the six wives. I'm a massive lover of Tudor history and that doesn't just extend to books on the subject or documentaries. I love hearing people just talking about them, sharing their opinions and bringing up some very important topics that relate to these six, extraordinary women. You are right; history has NOT been kind to Katherine Howard, or a lot of women, thrust into the spotlight at young ages, for that matter. It's a pattern that keeps on repeating itself and only through recognizing what it truly is, can we begin to stop it. So again, huge thanks to your videos-I can't wait to see what you've got for us in the future!
This video dropped the same day that I got to see SIX at the Vaudeville on the Strand. I was inspired to see it by your six wives series, and overall you have really shifted my perspective on these women and their lives. Thank you ❤
As for that display at the Tower of London, here's how it should have been done. Have the six trees (not headless) and string up lights and ornaments in the colors of their Six the Musical counterparts. ( gold, green, silver/white, red, pink/purple, blue) Each tree gets a plaque with a queen's name and brief biography. If Henry must be present, as a wicker figure or a tree, make him tiny, plain, undecorated, and boring. He gets a plaque with his name, nothing else.
I completely see where your coming from but I think we must be careful that in trying to give these women back their voices we don’t reduce men down to cardboard cutout. Maybe instead of it being one against the other we try to treat everyone in history like the messy people they were
This is hands down my favorite video you've ever put out! Not only that but I also feel like this represents a turning point for your work. This was such a humble, mature, balanced, intricately researched, and masterfully cross referenced re-examination of Katherine Howard! I'm floored by how well presented this video is and the unapologetic exposè of female exploitation through history. The edits were also hilarious! Well well WELL DONE!!!!!! 👏👏👏👏❤👑
The Channel 5 series made so angry when I saw the title. The mere suggestion of Katherine being a sexworker is not only wrong historically, but offensive. The title was made for a modern audience, yet this is what this network came up with?!
hey alice, in the video you mentioned other MQoS stuff, have you looked at Elizabeth starring helen mirren? id love to know your thoughts on it, the mini series is a personal favourite of mine!
Amazing video as always 👏 ❤ Katherine howard deserves so much better than what she had to go through at such a young age, poor child never could catch a break. The same goes to actress Lynne Fredrick, she wasn't a perfect person but still deserved better in life, may both rest in peace.
There is a fascinating novel by Ford Madox Ford about her-The Fifth Queen. He admits freely that it’s not likely “what happened”-but it’s very interesting.
I know that you're not overly crazy about Philippa Gregory, but you might find her novel The Boleyn Inheritance interesting. On the one hand, it portrays her as an airhead to an extent and portrays her affairs with Dereham and Culpeper as consensual (both of which may have been dubiously so, depending on whether you believe she was trying to throw Dereham under the bus to save herself). On the other hand...it's pretty clear, from the few references to Manox, that it was sexual abuse and grooming (in this version, she was ELEVEN, and only sixteen when she died), and that her grandmother neglected her and her uncle used her. The novel makes the point that she turned out the way she did because she was sexualized too young and thought it was her only value. She's not a slut...she's a TEENAGE GIRL reacting as a teenage girl would to the circumstances she's been shoved into. And, in the segments from her POV, she shows some mindfulness...that despite her extreme youth and her past, she would have been capable of maturing into something much more, if she had only been allowed to. In the end, she's very much the sympathetic victim of the people and circumstances around her. (Although PG does take the tack of "Norfolk and Jane encouraged the affair so she could have a son", but since Henry was able to complete the act with her, it would have been easier to pass the child off as his. And at the very least, it seems to back-pedal from TOBG's infamous claim that Anne really DID commit incest with George.)
I wish someone would upload the 1972 Henry VIII And His Six Wives to TH-cam. You and the Laughing Cavalier have really piqued my interest in it but it's not on streaming, and I'm reluctant to pay for a DVD that might not be good quality.
The one naked Tudor scene I can’t forgive from that series is when Queen Katherine Howard is practicing putting her head on the chopping block and she is completely naked. The 19(ish?) queen is practicing for her beheading because Queen Katherine wanted to die with some dignity but they decided to make her naked to squeeze out one last bit of fan service?! Crossed the line!
I think there must have been a clause in her contract to do a nude scene for every episode and they didn't know where to put it in episode 5. That is literally the only excuse.
I look at that scene and think they were trying to use symbolism to highlight the injustice and irony of Henry's fifth marriage. The Tudor's version of Katherine was a very physical person, almost enslaved to her physical impulses such as dancing and sex. I think her being naked while practicing with the block was to show her making the block her own, taking in her fate if you will and accepting her destiny. It's heart breaking to see a young, naked girl practicing her death, vulnerable in every way. Literally and metaphorically. It also shows how The Tudor's Henry used her for her sexuallity and married her because of it, and ultimately then discarded her for it too. Her sexuallity attracted the king to her, and it's now the thing that Henry is using to destroy her. It's a tale that's played out in many people's lives, the thing that made you successful is the very thing that leads to your downfall.
My introduction to Katherine Howard and really everyone was a Non/Disney edit that used the song All You Wanna Do from Six The Musical…….the very minute I heard the lyric “he was 23 and I was 13 going on 30” is the minute I knew the song was gonna be dark as hell.
I think I will always be in awe of the fact that I was a young woman in Toronto when the initial Slut Walks, and the initiating event, happened. I remember how our conversations changed, and there was this sudden feeling of freedom to be angry.
Sorry to take over the comments, but I wanted to share a memory of my visit to Hampton Court in June or July 2021. I have been studying and reading about these women, their lives, and their world since I was 10 years old and first read the very same Royal Diary you cited in this video. Going to HC (even in a mask with social distancing enforced) was a very special & significant moment for me. Im Canadian, and I had crossed the ocean and was standing in the home of these larger than life individuals who have dominated my imagination for now almost 26 years. Standing in the Haunted Gallery, I was enjoying a moment of quiet repose thinking of Catherine Howard and in general what it meant for me, and my inner 10 yr old, to actually be standing there, when an older man leaned over my shoulder from behind and right in my ear said, "she was a *naughty girl* wasnt she? Caught w her trousers down doing things she shouldnt have! Naughty naughty!" You cant make this stuff up.
I'm pretty high right now lol so forgive my style of writing, but I genuinely feel like this video essay should be considered the very best and cutting-edge of Katherine Howard scholarship. The research you've done and the interpretations you've come to are enough for a PhD paper. Please consider writing a book about the Tudors!
History has been unkind to Catherine Howard, but if you’re going to do dumb things people are going to call you out on it. Cheating on a dictator who beheaded a previous partner for cheating is just plain dumb.
She was a groomed child with no guidance who did "dumb" things. That's the point that's being made & many historians have addressed her story with no nuance. It's not about "calling out" more than it is about... yknow acknowledging someone was a real human being that was taken advantage of
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pZbsSDRrmXA/mqdefault.jpg)
I appreciate the inclusion of Dom Noble's middle finger dance for That Book. It's definitely one that deserves the middle finger dance.
indeed
So excited for the Elizabeth of York video, especially after what Philippa Gregory did to her.
I never thought I would see Dominic Noble and his middle finger dance outside his videos, but it made my day!
Ok I'm going to add my own tiny detail to your rewrite of the Haunted Gallery Scene: As Elizabeth stands frozen, her hand goes to the strand of pearls she wears at her neck- the same strand 'of little value' that Katherine gave her when they first met.
Brava Alice! Thank you for calling out sexual harassment and abuse. Once you’ve experienced either or both you know it when you see it or hear/read about it. Poor Katherine! She was the victim of inattentive adults who abdicated their responsibilities as she was growing up and then was a victim of the double standard once she was made the queen. Was there no “normal” adult woman in the entire court who could’ve helped guide her through the entire process of being a responsible adult woman? Lady Rochford was certainly NOT the adult to help Katherine. Her story makes me incredibly sad and angry. I do hope that there’s a special place in hell for Henry VIII. He was a psychopathic monster.
Re: Lynne Frederick... Apparently she was DESPERATE to play Meggie in The Thorn Birds (1983) and even dyed her hair red to get the part. When the choice came down to Rachel Ward or Jane Seymour (Yeah, no pun intended), she was crushed. Ward got the part and played it well but having read the book, I think Lynne would have been the superior choice BY FAR. (I also think Seymour would have been better tbh) Imagine her and Richard Chamberlain acting together... Then again, Meggie is another woman at the mercy of a much older man who always put his ambition first, so maybe it would have been too much for her in the end. What was done both to Lynne and Kathryn was unforgivable. I hope that they are sharing eternal bliss in Paradise together at least.
Thank you for pointing out the similarities in Catherine Howard and Lynne Frederick’s stories. They were both treated so horribly.
I really feel sorry for Lynne Frederick, although not giving any money to her stepchildren was not the best move she could have made in terms of PR.
Repeated sexual assault can also make it more difficult to get pregnant. I have multiple times about women who became infertile because of assault. And since Katherine was very young when they started abusing her, we also don't know how violent these assaults were.
Oh my God, I hadn't considered that, even though I'm a SA survivor myself...
She wasn’t a victim of sexual abuse. The sex she had when she was younger was consensual.
@@TheConman761 She wasn't of a Consenting age and was taken advantage of by Her Teacher.
That's Sexual Assault. There's a reason why Teachers aren't allowed to have Sex with their students. It doesn't matter how eager The Student may appear, the Tutor or Teacher is still commiting sexual assault.
@@eamonndeane587 no they were of similar age there wasn’t any sexual abuse involved. She was in the same bed as her friend and her friend complained of the noises both of them were making while having sex.
@@TheConman761 There are a lot of cases where a Sexual assault victim sounds like "They Enjoyed It".
I’m looking into Tudor history PhD options so I can study Kathryn’s life without feeling like I’m just rehashing things that other people have said about her. I’m also thinking I’ll write an adaptation of her life (book, film, or miniseries) intertwined with those of Elizabeth I and Jane Grey.
Still watching, but the sheer surprised delight I felt when Dominic Noble's finger dance popped up is indescribable.
Excellent work as always!!!!
As a lifelong learner of history and particularly the tudor history, I love your video. Katherine Howard was such a tragic figure that history did so dirty. She was a child thrown to the wolves, by all the people who should have been protecting her. I am so happy to see the attitudes changing around her.
So many young woman suffer the same because we defend ourselves. We suffer so much in our society for just being women, transwomen, non-binary, transmen, and men.
I loved Lynne’s portrayal of Katherine Howard. It has always been my favourite.
This is timely in one of the most tragic ways imaginable. I'm always grateful for your work but wow this must have taken such an emotional toll on you this time. Thank you for your work, please take care of yourself.
The lil Dominic noble popping up has me in hysterics 🤣 😂
I think the narrative has also changed largely because of the emergence of the study of women’s history and the history of gender. Especially with historians such as Joan Scott taking the time to truly examine the effects of gender on how we see historical figures and talk about history. Rather than, taking the binary for granted and failing to consider different experiences.
agreed 👍
I want to fight people who call Katherine any variation of "slut," "whore," "wanton," etc. It won't bring Katherine back, but I still want them to catch these hands.
You are absolutely right, it is disgusting and so, so frustrating, when people use these horrible, disgusting words about her. That's very harmful and unfair to her...
Especially when we know very little about the real Katherine, she was so young and terribly neglected. We don't know what she really was like. We don't know her personally or her true thoughts about Mannox, Dereham and Culpeper.
AAAA I’m so excited for the Elizabeth of York ranking!!! 💗
Have been looking forward to this video for ages! Thank you, Alice of Sherwood, for all your material on the six wives. I'm a massive lover of Tudor history and that doesn't just extend to books on the subject or documentaries. I love hearing people just talking about them, sharing their opinions and bringing up some very important topics that relate to these six, extraordinary women. You are right; history has NOT been kind to Katherine Howard, or a lot of women, thrust into the spotlight at young ages, for that matter. It's a pattern that keeps on repeating itself and only through recognizing what it truly is, can we begin to stop it. So again, huge thanks to your videos-I can't wait to see what you've got for us in the future!
This video dropped the same day that I got to see SIX at the Vaudeville on the Strand. I was inspired to see it by your six wives series, and overall you have really shifted my perspective on these women and their lives. Thank you ❤
As for that display at the Tower of London, here's how it should have been done. Have the six trees (not headless) and string up lights and ornaments in the colors of their Six the Musical counterparts. ( gold, green, silver/white, red, pink/purple, blue) Each tree gets a plaque with a queen's name and brief biography. If Henry must be present, as a wicker figure or a tree, make him tiny, plain, undecorated, and boring. He gets a plaque with his name, nothing else.
I completely see where your coming from but I think we must be careful that in trying to give these women back their voices we don’t reduce men down to cardboard cutout. Maybe instead of it being one against the other we try to treat everyone in history like the messy people they were
Excellent video! That opening part was chilling. I'm happy to see more attention drawn to Katherine. We can still learn from the mistakes of our past.
This is hands down my favorite video you've ever put out! Not only that but I also feel like this represents a turning point for your work. This was such a humble, mature, balanced, intricately researched, and masterfully cross referenced re-examination of Katherine Howard! I'm floored by how well presented this video is and the unapologetic exposè of female exploitation through history.
The edits were also hilarious! Well well WELL DONE!!!!!! 👏👏👏👏❤👑
The Channel 5 series made so angry when I saw the title. The mere suggestion of Katherine being a sexworker is not only wrong historically, but offensive. The title was made for a modern audience, yet this is what this network came up with?!
I agree i hate the way Katherine was protrayed
hey alice, in the video you mentioned other MQoS stuff, have you looked at Elizabeth starring helen mirren? id love to know your thoughts on it, the mini series is a personal favourite of mine!
Jeremy Irons is my Favourite Robert Dudley.
i can't wait to see your views on Elizabeth of York and I hope someday that you do a video on Margaret Beaufort
While I'm sad to see the wives go, I'd love to see you look at the war of the roses
Amazing video as always 👏 ❤ Katherine howard deserves so much better than what she had to go through at such a young age, poor child never could catch a break. The same goes to actress Lynne Fredrick, she wasn't a perfect person but still deserved better in life, may both rest in peace.
Amazing video! Thank you so much for this.
There is a fascinating novel by Ford Madox Ford about her-The Fifth Queen. He admits freely that it’s not likely “what happened”-but it’s very interesting.
I know that you're not overly crazy about Philippa Gregory, but you might find her novel The Boleyn Inheritance interesting. On the one hand, it portrays her as an airhead to an extent and portrays her affairs with Dereham and Culpeper as consensual (both of which may have been dubiously so, depending on whether you believe she was trying to throw Dereham under the bus to save herself). On the other hand...it's pretty clear, from the few references to Manox, that it was sexual abuse and grooming (in this version, she was ELEVEN, and only sixteen when she died), and that her grandmother neglected her and her uncle used her. The novel makes the point that she turned out the way she did because she was sexualized too young and thought it was her only value. She's not a slut...she's a TEENAGE GIRL reacting as a teenage girl would to the circumstances she's been shoved into. And, in the segments from her POV, she shows some mindfulness...that despite her extreme youth and her past, she would have been capable of maturing into something much more, if she had only been allowed to. In the end, she's very much the sympathetic victim of the people and circumstances around her. (Although PG does take the tack of "Norfolk and Jane encouraged the affair so she could have a son", but since Henry was able to complete the act with her, it would have been easier to pass the child off as his. And at the very least, it seems to back-pedal from TOBG's infamous claim that Anne really DID commit incest with George.)
I wish someone would upload the 1972 Henry VIII And His Six Wives to TH-cam. You and the Laughing Cavalier have really piqued my interest in it but it's not on streaming, and I'm reluctant to pay for a DVD that might not be good quality.
We really deserve a 1080p Blu Ray Release of that film with an Audio Commentary done by Warris Hussein.
The one naked Tudor scene I can’t forgive from that series is when Queen Katherine Howard is practicing putting her head on the chopping block and she is completely naked. The 19(ish?) queen is practicing for her beheading because Queen Katherine wanted to die with some dignity but they decided to make her naked to squeeze out one last bit of fan service?! Crossed the line!
I think there must have been a clause in her contract to do a nude scene for every episode and they didn't know where to put it in episode 5. That is literally the only excuse.
@@AliceOfSherwood It was still a disgrace to use that moment in my opinion
I look at that scene and think they were trying to use symbolism to highlight the injustice and irony of Henry's fifth marriage.
The Tudor's version of Katherine was a very physical person, almost enslaved to her physical impulses such as dancing and sex. I think her being naked while practicing with the block was to show her making the block her own, taking in her fate if you will and accepting her destiny. It's heart breaking to see a young, naked girl practicing her death, vulnerable in every way. Literally and metaphorically.
It also shows how The Tudor's Henry used her for her sexuallity and married her because of it, and ultimately then discarded her for it too. Her sexuallity attracted the king to her, and it's now the thing that Henry is using to destroy her.
It's a tale that's played out in many people's lives, the thing that made you successful is the very thing that leads to your downfall.
Well done on this video. Thank you for peeling back the layers of how we treat our Katherines.
My introduction to Katherine Howard and really everyone was a Non/Disney edit that used the song All You Wanna Do from Six The Musical…….the very minute I heard the lyric “he was 23 and I was 13 going on 30” is the minute I knew the song was gonna be dark as hell.
Your videos are amazing 😻
I think I will always be in awe of the fact that I was a young woman in Toronto when the initial Slut Walks, and the initiating event, happened. I remember how our conversations changed, and there was this sudden feeling of freedom to be angry.
Sorry to take over the comments, but I wanted to share a memory of my visit to Hampton Court in June or July 2021.
I have been studying and reading about these women, their lives, and their world since I was 10 years old and first read the very same Royal Diary you cited in this video. Going to HC (even in a mask with social distancing enforced) was a very special & significant moment for me. Im Canadian, and I had crossed the ocean and was standing in the home of these larger than life individuals who have dominated my imagination for now almost 26 years.
Standing in the Haunted Gallery, I was enjoying a moment of quiet repose thinking of Catherine Howard and in general what it meant for me, and my inner 10 yr old, to actually be standing there, when an older man leaned over my shoulder from behind and right in my ear said, "she was a *naughty girl* wasnt she? Caught w her trousers down doing things she shouldnt have! Naughty naughty!"
You cant make this stuff up.
My best friend is a natural blonde, and one of the smartest people I know!
Awesome video!
It’s also a terrible case of the times she lived in. Women always bore the brunt of everything and Katherine Howard was no different.
Brilliant video essay
I'm pretty high right now lol so forgive my style of writing, but I genuinely feel like this video essay should be considered the very best and cutting-edge of Katherine Howard scholarship. The research you've done and the interpretations you've come to are enough for a PhD paper. Please consider writing a book about the Tudors!
I thought the first letter of her name began with a c😊
I spell the Catherines' names differently to avoid confusion.
@@AliceOfSherwood thank you I enjoy your channel
History has been unkind to Catherine Howard, but if you’re going to do dumb things people are going to call you out on it. Cheating on a dictator who beheaded a previous partner for cheating is just plain dumb.
She was a groomed child with no guidance who did "dumb" things. That's the point that's being made & many historians have addressed her story with no nuance. It's not about "calling out" more than it is about... yknow acknowledging someone was a real human being that was taken advantage of