The Problem With Vintage Steinway & Sons Pianos
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2021
- As a retailer of vintage Steinway & Sons pianos, we are coming clean today. Steinway has built and maintained an American piano brand that has been a dominant player for over 100 years. That being said, they have done so well with building their brand that it sometimes causes a vintage antique Steinway to be valued higher than the piano really is and higher than a similar piano made by another manufacturer. You can increase the value of an antique Steinway by rebuilding, but ideally, one would take care when rebuilding and keep the soundboard and have a paper trail to keep the value. What do you think about vintage Steinway pianos? #Steinway #SteinwayAndSons #VintageSteinway #Pianos
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Played a rebuilt 1928 Steinway M that sounded better than every other piano at the shop of 180 pianos. It outperformed the new Kawai and Yamaha
Wow probably the best discussion on vintage Steinway's I have ever listened to. I own a 1907 Steinway model O in amazing condition with original sound board, yes its beautiful but not any better than a Bluthner or Bechstein of the same era etc. An aggressive marketing has kept the Steinway name at the forefront but sadly this has robbed music lovers of some of the wonderful sounds of many European pianos.
Mine is a carefully rebuilt O 1901. I am the third owner. That said there are other wonderful pianos that should be saved like Knabe ,and so many others. Unfortunately the resale isnot there. My dream Piano is an old Bluthner.
How much you want for that O?
I have a 1919 Model M Steinway. It was restrung in 2003, new Steinway hammers installed in 2004. It sounds great.
I have a Masters degree in piano performance and I know a good piano when i play it.
I really like Mason & Hamlin pianos for their warm sound.
Appreciate your honest take! Another interesting video that’s helping me learn more about pianos. 👍🏼
I tuned a 1929 Mason & Hamlin. I loved it.
We had a terrible experience when visiting our new local Steinway dealer. We bought a new SK6 at Portland Piano and are very very happy with it and the experience at the showroom. Steinway might be a great piano but it’s not necessarily the best choice. The Steinway sales person pretty much told us that anything other than Steinway is okay if you are just a “moderate” player. I’ll never set foot in that showroom again. Thanks for all the videos you do.
You can't go wrong with a Shigeru-Kawai. I have great respect for that piano. It's like comparing Grand Seiko to Rolex.
I think some of what is missed here is the personal connection an owner has with her/his instrument. In a few days (June 10th, 2022), I will celebrate my 20th anniversary of being custodian (some say "owner") of a 1932 Steinway M serial #272021. She is perfect in every way for me. While all hammers and felts (and likely many if not all strings) were replaced, she is just a beautiful instrument. Even over these last 20 years, it feels like she has mellowed, warmed, and become a better instrument. I was very lucky in acquiring her as the prior owner was aging and had (sadly) bad arthritis (he was replacing it with a high-end Baldwin with lighter movements). He wanted the instrument to go to someone who PLAYED and not just used as a piece of home decor. So, way back in 2002, I went to his home to "audition" for the instrument. I immediately, on playing, fell in love with the warm, rich tones this instrument produced. The asking price was $26k. I was 26 years old. I could not afford this, but wanted so much to have this instrument. After the audition, he sold it to me for $16k, including drayage and an amazing vintage piano chair (Sikes company, Philly...havent been able to find out more about it). I play this piano at least 3 times a week and love her. I have played Bosendorfer, higher-end Yamaha, Boston, Bechstein, and many other "regular" pianos. This one owns my heart. I have an obligation (nothing to do with financial investment) to care for her and ensure she'll have a new steward. My tuner is a retired tuner for a major music college in my area. He doesn't actually tune as a profession anymore, but keeps tuning this instrument. I think he has fallen in love with the instrument just as I have. She is in great physical shape - no chips or discoloration in ivory - just lovely in every way. He did suggest I might consider revoicing the instrument at some point. I am not sure what that means. Internet searches seem very vague about this. Based on my long-winded comment...any thoughts on best I can care for her and if "revoicing" is something I should consider?
IF, you willed me the piano, this is on my mind….
th-cam.com/video/5PRF3ViRo9g/w-d-xo.html
Revoicing is a process which involves either removing some of the felt around the hammer if the "groves"where the hammer contacts the strings and have become to "deep" it could also be achieved using different grades of needle to open up the felt fibres, although we use this method mainly on new hammers which are a lot more compact. The hammer is perhaps the most important part of the instrument as it is helping tp produce the sound. If the hammer is too hard, its like driving a car with no suspension, if too Soft, its the opposite, like driving a car with broken suspension, you lose a lot of its "performance" abilities. We have a book which is nearly 1" thick just on hammer toning and voicing, there are many opinions and different methods people use. The USA tended to go with a softer hammer to start with, the European piano mfgs tended to use a harder, more compacted felt which was then "needled" to open up the fibres and soften the tone. I know it's been awhile since your post, but hopefully you managed to get a solution for your piano. We've refurbished many vintage Steinways' working with their London office and parts suppliers and they are indeed a great instrument. We have several videos on comparisons between many makes of pianos, both uprights and grands. Happy playing ;)
I agree with this. Sometimes there is just a connection that runs much deeper than the basis of instrument/owner (steward - great word). There's a connection that can't really be defined. Congrats on your piano!
You sound so much like me, talking about my own piano- a 1934 Steinway M that I am deeply in love with. If you love how your piano sounds- there is no need to mess with voicing.
They don't have the PR and marketing machine of S & S, but Mason & Hamlin is certainly right up there with them in quality and interest in vintage instruments, no? I played my Senior Recital years ago on a newish and meticulously maintained M & H BB (7') and it was incredible... better than any S & S B I ever heard or played. Other M & H I've come across are equally good. Among musicians I know, a vintage M & H is revered just as much as a vintage S & S is. And they support rebuilders- none of that STEIN-WAS nonsense.
I have a 1929 M that I've had my technician rebuild. He insisted on using Steinway parts to maintain the integrity of the instrument. Even the bass strings, he told me, were Steinway parts. Of course, the soundboard is original and in excellent condition. I love my instrument.
Steinway bass strings have been made by Mapes in Tennessee for over 100 years and are available to any technician.
As always, it comes down to the individual piano. I am not a fan of the marketing techniques Steinway uses, but I get it. To me, the real value of an instrument is in its immediate playability and connection to its tone; not the brand. I used to have a lifelong dream of owning a Steinway, but now my dream is much more simple: find a piano that truly resonates and responds to me.
I suspect your dream is actually a lot more complicated - a Steinway is a Steinway, and you can find another one. An instrument that you connect with is far less easy to find. Good luck with your search!
Keith Jarrett's best jazz piano album ever was 'Koln' (Cologne in Germany). He plays free-form jazz on a piano: no sheet music, totally improvised. Apparently, the vintage baby grand in the Cologne Opera House was usually used backstage for rehearsals. It had some sticky keys (also issues with the tuning maybe?) and he really struggled to create anything out of the instrument. If you listen to the recording, you can actually hear him (complaining?) as he performs. The result is acknowledged by many to be his best work ever - the highest selling solo jazz album of all time. The impediment he faced brought the very best out of him. What was the make of the piano? I ain't a jazzer but even I love that album.
It was a beat up Bosendorfer.
He had a new keyboard fabricated for his piano a couple decades ago.
Me too,have an1880steinway
I purchased a 1930 Steinway M from a dealer in the Atlanta area with the original case, ivory keytops and soundboard. It wasn’t until a year later when I was having it tuned by a local technician that he noticed a botched agraffe repair. I was unable to get any satisfaction from the dealer and eventually found another technician who was able to replace the agraffe and redrill the harp to install it. I am resigned to the fact that it is not worth rebuilding due to this weakness in the harp and will likely trade up at some point for a new Kawaii or Yamaha and take my loss as a learning experience.
Thank you for the presentation. Very interesting comments. Seems to be like a fine wine. Even the best brands and vintages can produce mediocre or underwhelming results.
I was studying marine engineering as a young man in Baltimore and managed to gain access to the practice rooms at the Peabody Institute. As you might imagine, I felt so privileged to play many different pianos, sizes and model. I was really impressed with the Yamaha‘s and even the uprights.
Fast forward 10 years later I bought a 1948 S Model Steinway. I’ve enjoyed that piano for almost 30 years.
I was hoping to upgrade to a larger grander sound. And being that I am pretty much sold on the Steinway brand, I started looking around the used market. Incredibly pricey for sure. Then I landed on a vintage 1881 rosewood C model. A highly reputable dealer out of Utah is completely overhauling the inside and out. We are keeping the original soundboard which is being shimmed and re-cambered. Renner hammers and the same strings Steinway uses. I’m going with a high gloss finish to bring out the grain pattern. Keeping the original ivory keys, replacing a few chipped and cracked ones then cleaning and polishing. New decals all around including the sides. It comes with the more modern legs, which I think are less outdated than the turned round flower pot ones. I located a Rosewood filagree very ornate music desk in the UK which will make that piano pop. I procured a huge gorgeous matching rosewood ornate piano bench with white satin top. Meanwhile, I have the S model Steinway for sale, proceeds of which will be the down payment for the C model. Total cost including delivery to California- $30,000.
There’s more. I did bronze sculpture for years. jaywright.com.
You’ve seen the very ornate gold trim and detailing on the😊 custom rococo and Louis XIV models. That’s my plan for my C model. It will be one of a kind tricked out in my own unique custom styling. I am so excited. This gem is replacing the wife of 20 years.
Same thing with my knabe D, 9. I refused the builder to change the soundboard. Today it is gold. great sound.
Thanks for the video! Being a guitar player just getting into piano tuning, I appreciate this explanation about the brand "power" of Steinways. I run into the same issue in the guitar world with specific vintage models from big brands like Fender, Gibson, and Martin having the same issues of being overpriced compared to other vintage brands, and even different models from the same brand. I just restored a Gibson J45-ADJ acoustic guitar a late friend of mine had and it's "only" worth about $2k, but a different model Gibson J-45 acoustic from the same year is worth 2-3x more, even though the average listener wouldn't be able to hear a difference. Just funny how the market of vintage instruments works.
Personally, I’ve only played one rebuilt vintage Steinway that I fell in love with. I would never invest in one because they usually don’t sound have the refined Steinway sound that I love. The new Steinways are some of the best I’ve played of any brand as they’ve seemed to up their attention to quality and detail. My favorite pianos I like equally as much would be the Bösendorfer 280VC and the New York Steinway D. I feel they offer the best of both worlds.
My teacher has a Steinway L, from the 1920s that looks just like that, but sounds much better. Her tech told her the same thing you said about modern Steinway parts being a real step down and her primary interest is in the sound, not the Steinway enforced brand loyalty. Thanks for an interesting video, as always.
Honestly I have seen a lot of random things with steinway even historically their parts suffered. I have seen issues of the wrong sized nuckles on original 80 year old hammer shanks which resulted in the piano being practically unplayable. And we have heard from some ex: steinway employees that back in the day it wasn't uncommon to use up old parts and create a frankenstein's monster of a piano at the factory.
There are many factors that go into the value of a vintage piano and what somebody is willing to pay for it. Sometimes it is just an average piano that has an interesting pedigree. I own a 1931 New York Steinway M. It is all original, but it is of historic interest because it is the very first production Steinway accelerated action. It was played and autographed by Josef Hofmann, and it was also autographed by Theodore Steinway before it left the factory in 1931. It also is the personal piano of Benny Goodman who owned it up until his death in 1986. Does that make the piano any more valuable to a buyer? It depends on who the prospective buyer is and how much they want the piano.
As for piano brands, I also own a Fazioli 10-foot concert grand and a Bosendorfer imperial grand. The Bosendorfer is from 1993, before Yamaha bought Bosendorfer. The Fazioli is a superb instrument, every bit as good as a Steinway D. And the Bosendorfer imperial grand is also an excellent instrument. The build quality and craftsmanship on both the Fazioli and the Bosendorfer are top notch, every bit as good as the best Steinway. However, each piano has its own "personality" and sound. When it comes to the top tier pianos, everybody has their own personal preferences. There is no one "best piano brand" in the world.
The studio I use has a 7” Baldwin concert grand. It wasn’t that expensive , I think around 18k . A little beat up cabinet but it’s become my favorite piano ever . I don’t l ow why I just love that instrument.
If it is an SF-10, we know why you love it! One of the "greats" of American piano building.
My Episcopal church about 2011, got a parlor Grand Mason Hamlin and its beautiful, our old organist said it was so nice he'd give up his old Steinway for that piano
the first time i played a steinway, i instantly fell in love with the touch. unsure of the model- it was a white 1925 grand on tour with burton cummings. in 2020, i finally found one for sale in my area, a 1918 model m. original soundboard, BRILLIANT tone. on you tube, i have a brief clip played on my previous grand, a 1922 knabe. i HAD to sell it to make room for the steinway- loved it for 15 years! win some, lose some-lol
I have an antique knabe grand and i love the warm sound. the thing is that back around the turn of the century, steinway really wasnt markedly different from other hand built american pianos. what sets them apart is how they managed to stay independent and are now the only american made piano company alongside mason and hamlin. mason and hamlin, chickering, knabe, baldwin are all fabulous american pianos and are all comparable to any steinway
I have handled thousands of pianos over my life for artist from Van Cliburn to so many other notable artist that I couldn't even tell you. Steinways were usually the choice of most, but it was always a specific Steinway and they usually had a specific crew that handled it, tuned it and maintained it. To keep the sound accurate as some explained to me. I have also seen parents by their small children Steinway grands and the children was so upset because to them the action was to heavy for them. Especially if they came from a Kawaii, Yamaha or Essex. Love this explanation, its an instrument and its up to the ear and ability of the player on their aim.
Now that my arthritis is acting up, the action on my 1930 Steinway M does feel heavier than I would like. But I always thought the action of the Yamaha and Kawai pianos I tried felt too light, and I found them even more difficult to control.
I have a 1917 New York Steinway, I changed the string and hammers. The furniture has to be fixed, it has some holes in it. I am thinking of buying a new Shigeru Kawai SK2. Is this a good change? Thank you. Sebastian
I own an 1886 Steinway A, 6' with 85 keys. I talked to a Steinway rep in NY about restoration, and he pretty much talked me out of it, costing more to restore than it's worth. Pin block is shaky, and the sounding board had a small crack which was repaired way back when, and doesn't affect the sound.
I was in a piano store in Williamsport, PA, and found one exactly the same as mine, that was tagged for $52K ! Likely won't get it but??
Interesting video.
Just picked up an old upright 1891 Steinway for 500 bucks. It needs work but dam at most it will cost me 7 grand for a professional to restore it. I’m going to do most of the work myself. These things sell for like you said close to 50k restored. Although I definitely do not plan on selling mine, it sounds amazing cracked soundboard and all!
My 1886 Steinway Model C in an East Indian Rosewood Case and an 85 note keyboard was lovingly restored at the Astoria Factory under my c watchful eyes. The origins action and keys are in perfect condition and the case which had turned black looks brand new. In 2016 I donated it to the Musical Instrument Museum in Phoenix Arizona where it is displayed on the second floor near the entrance to one of the galleries. Serial number 52856. The appraised value was in six figures.
I also own an 1886 Steinway A, which my family purchased after it was rebuilt for $10k almost 40 years ago when I was 14. It retains its original soundboard. I later became a piano performance major in college, so I have played it a lot and still play it almost every day. As long as I keep it in tune, the piano sounds fantastic and seems to get better with age (in both action and sound). I recently played a restored 1886 SW model A that was for sale for ~$50k, because I was curious, and I think mine still sounds better. I had a Steinway rep from the factory in DC come have a look at my piano about 15 years ago, because I was having trouble finding someone to tune it properly. He said he wouldn't even tune it for me, because it wouldn't be worth it, but he said it could rebuild it at the factory for $25k. What a joke. To hear from this video that a rebuild from Steinway with "Steinway" parts might actually be of lower quality than the original parts is shocking. I'm glad I never took SW's offer, which likely would have ruined it.
I’ll probably ruffle a few feathers but it’s kind of like Harley Davidson. Its not the best bike build in quality but has the “name”. I’ve owned 2 flhx models and 2 imports. I’ll take a New Shigeru over a new Steinway. Great topic fellas 👍
I couldn't agree more with you. I played a Shigeru a few years ago what a sound what an experience - for me the best instrument in the world!
Those pianos tend to have a very similar characteristic to the "steinway" sound if you throw a set of able hammers on them. And they tend to have much better objective qualities such as sustain and projection
Agree. Yamahas are also great in terms of quality and price. Many people are married to the Steinway marquee but forget there are many other fantastic pianos out there such as Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Bosendofer and Fazioli
fully Agree…It’s the aura a brand has built in the mind that people just have a family loyalty no matter how good the new brands are with state of art technology. It is not just the technology but also marketing over generations and the emotional associations made with the instrument.❤
One interesting problem that results from the “brand power” is that 80% of all piano samples on keyboards, digi pianos and virtual instruments are always taken from Steinway while others (e.g. Bechstein and Bösendorfer) have a much more distinctive character. So everybody tends to “sound the same”, and you can see that people notice when you come up with a different piano sound: “wow, that sounded amazing” - “yes, it’s a Bösendorfer sample”.
My ultimate dream is and will be Fazioli, but all the major brands easily make Steinway -comparable pianos. And always have. Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Bechstein etc. all valid choices when you find a good individual that is technically solid and suits your own ear and preference. Also the "modern makers" like Feurich, Kawai and (higher end) Yamaha can easily be much better experience than an "average Steinway".
Interesting video. But I’m left in a quandary. I have owned since 1990 a 1927 Model L. Always enjoyed its warmth and it’s easy to play. But the strings are rusting and breaking. I’ve had technicians to the house and each wants to do something different. In addition to restringing, some want to replace the pin block, some want to replace the action, some (including Steinway in Ohio, sight unseen) want to replace the soundboard. I’m leaning to just restringing it and see what happens. The pins are a No. 4, so it’s been restrung in the past and I don’t know whether that’s going to be a problem. But it seems to me that the less tampered with, the better. If anyone has a practical suggestion, I’d be interested and grateful for the input.
I agree with everything you have said! S&S is just a brand, and any of them built after the late 1980s are just...another piano. But the brand name keeps it going. It drives me nuts, but my frustration over it can't convince everyone to change their minds. People then ask me why you see S&S everywhere, and what people don't realize is that S&S makes contracts with venues where the venue gets a S&S provided to them, so they use it, and artists (even a lot of TH-cam artists) get provided S&S for free or on loan, so again, S&S is providing the instrument, so any rational person would take the S&S no questions asked. This keeps their brand momentum going, even though they are just another piano these days, but the layperson is none the wiser.
And the vintage ones...well, in general "an old piano is just an old piano", regardless of the name, except in very unusual circumstances where it was taken care of in a pristine manner. Someone I know has a 1080 (the worst upright ever built), and the owner tells everyone that they have one of the best pianos...but it's from the 70s and was never maintained, tuned every few years, and so it. It's like playing a cardboard box that kids put wire on as a school project.
I once talked to a S&S dealer who sold other pianos, too, and when he realized I was a piano person, we had a great chat about how he sells S&S as just expensive furniture to the general person who has the money to spend, but sold the great pianos to the piano people. :)
"He sells S&S as just expensive furniture to the general person who has the money to spend, but sold the great pianos to the piano people."
Geez, if all dealers had that level of conscience, the world would be a much better place......
lol Would love to see you guys rebuild a steinway!
I had what would be called a 'stencil' upright piano for many years, as I grew up until after a year of living away from home after the Navy. My beloved piano technician tried, as he said, to bring it up to be in accordance with Steinway norms, one thing at a time, over the years. Actually, it ended up a pretty nice old upright piano due to his efforts. the idea of 'Steinway norms' sounded so cool, but, of course, the piano, despite all of that was NOT a Steinway. I loved it all the same!
A complete restoration of a 1926 Knabe Opera Grand was the price of a new Baldwin grand (at the time of the restoration). It remains a superior instrument 20 years later with an incredible, clean sound, and I'm glad that I spent the money to do it correctly. My question: Is it still a Knabe? The case was refinished (it has new Knabe decals) it was totally disassembled, the sound board inspected, restrung with German strings, the action rebuilt, re-voiced, and new laminates for the keys.
In the context of your topic-you could also find similar observations and critiques of other brands and builders of fine instruments. CF Martin, Gibson, etc. I’ve been to the Steinway factory a few times and have have witnessed their knowledge and passion for building and restoring pianos. From the competitors point of view, and some independent technicians I’ve also heard some disparaging comment’s as well.
What is your opinion on the Z114 model. That one sounded amazing in the store. I'm torn between the Z114 model Steinway and sons, Yamaha Yus1 and a revised yamaha u1 which is the most affordable one.
I have played many years on a Z-114 as a child and a U1 as an adult. Not comparable. The Z has a very crystalline sound, very pure and pleasant. Strong bass despite its small size (1.14m height). But heavy keyboard makes the Z difficult to play. Trains your muscles though. The U1 has a simple sound, nothing particular. Requires to be tuned rather often. Some notes sound dull. Perfect piano for a beginner. Easy keyboard. I could only afford a U1 with my first job and it had the silent system. That is why i bought it.
I'm considering buying a Steinway Model "S" 5'1" from 1940 that has been in the same family since new. The seller inherited it from her mother and is now moving and down-sizing.
I've had an RPT go over it.
The main issue is that the action was a little hard. He put a piano lubricant on it, and it immediately improved, within minutes. He said wait a few weeks to play it again to see if the lubricant worked, which apparently there is no guarantee that it would.
His concern was that a different or wrong lubricant was previously used. If the action returned to the condition before he applied his lubricant the flanges would have to be replaced at a fee of around $600.00. The other thing is that there is a fair amount of rust on the strings, which he said would cost about $500.00 to clean up. The case, hammers, pins, pin block and soundboard are good.
The asking price is $7500.00, but the RPT said if it was him, he would try to get it for around $5000.00, which I'm willing to pay and I'm willing to spend the $1100.00 for the adjustments he cited, which he said could be done in the home.
I'm playing it again this coming Saturday morning July 22, 2023.
I'd appreciate any comments either from other subscribers or from the gentlemen at Alamo in beautiful downtown San Antonio, Texas.
I played for a church for 20 years that built a new building in 1996 and just had to have a Steinway for the new building. The problem - couldn't afford a new one. They ended up buying an old Steinway B (? - 7' model) knowing it would have to be rebuilt. We suffered for a couple of years with loose pins, a piano that would not stay in tune, etc. and they finished the rebuilding. Long story short, they were into that thing $70,000. It's "meh". It's a piano. Whatever. I asked why they just didn't get a Yamaha C7 one of the world's most favorite pianos for the same cost, it would be new and fabulous, and we wouldn't lose use of it for several months while being rebuilt. The lady in charge of the discussion replied "where were you when we were making this decision?" She seemed to end up agreeing although would not come right out and say it.
Like many luxury items, Steinway is a status symbol. For people who know nothing about pianos Steinway is the de facto standard. But like many things you can find just as good if not much better for less (especially in the used market) if you are willing to let go of the perceived elevated status one gets from being able to tell their friends that they own a STEINWAY.
when you say vintage Steinways, what years are you talking about? I have two Steinway M's from the 1920's and they sound beautiful, you just need to know how to regulate and repair them.
I was just in the market for a new Piano and I was really considering a reconstructed Steinway, but everything you guys are talking about started coming into my head. I kept asking myself, is it worth all the trouble to have a Steinway? So I decided to treat the Steinway as every other brand. I went further, I played as many pianos as I possibly could, some even blind folded; I did this exercise when I wanted to buy a Gibson acoustic and I ended up with a Yamaha LL. I went to a lot of stores and wrote a lot of notes on a lot of pianos. Once my exercise was done, my favorite pianos ended up being a Steinway A, A used Kawai KG-7D, Shigeru SK2, A Yamaha GC2, and a Kawai GL30 & GL40. I couldn't justify the price of the Steinway A and I couldn't fit the Kawai KG-7D into my living room so that made the choice easier. As nice as the Yamaha GC2 felt and sounded, I preferred the warmer sound of the Kawai's. The Kawai GL30 felt a little lacking on the bass despite it's beautiful intimate sound, so that left me with my last two choices the SK2 vs GL40. Both these pianos are made with quality parts and sounded close enough that I just could not justify the price of the Shigeru SK2, so I ended up with the GL40. I just wouldn't deal with all the trouble of the Steinway unless you really have to have that Steinway name. Just go out and play a whole bunch of pianos and get what sounds and feels better to you.
Love the details of this post! This person did it right! It's nerve-wracking, but it's the only way to end up feeling right about the end-result. So many variables ...... Next questions is, "Which piano sounds best in the piano room of your house?" LOL!
My wife and i did the same thing with violins, but thankfully, shops usually let you bring two of them home. Over a few weeks, we drove to five different shops here in New England, and found our favorite two instruments in each shop. Then we spent wo days picking them all up to borrow for one week. So, we had 10 top choices for five days in our house. Then we ferried all but the winner back to the shops. It was fun ...... sort of, but we're talking a few thousand bucks, so it's the only way to truly get the job done.
@@mikelisacarb they let you take the violins home? They need to do that with guitars. Haha. I can see why they wouldn't with pianos, delivery is expensive.
Totally agree with you. I recently purchased an Shigeru Kawai and absolutely love it……the action, the feel, the sound….and if I must admit, that gorgeous gorgeous birds eye maple inside rim.
To the person who was allowed to take home violins to try…..we were allowed to have two different pianos delivered to our home to help us in our decision process. I know not everyone can do this but it sure helped with our decision.
@@g.970 congrats on your piano! Yea, there are a lot of beautiful pianos out there and it's a shame that people start with name brand first. I'm glad you found your instrument, enjoy the lovely playing.
Fun discussion guys. Did I miss something? Were you just talking about vintage Steinways that have NEVER had anything done to them? Also, what about an older piano that has been maintained but had very little playing time? The age of the instrument alone is not the only consideration, right? Also, it would have been nice to see him playing the flourish at the end.
I played a steinway that was from 1908 I believe and the action was so heavy basically unplayable and it had a price of 50k the case even looked terrible. I got my used Kawai kg 1A from 1994 and it sounded and played way better than that steinway and I only paid 4,500 for it.
I think Steinway action came out after the 500 Steinway made
One thing I can wholeheartedly agree with is that for the manufacture of musical instruments nothing can match high quality aged wood when it comes to achieving the best sound. Yamaha seems to have gone the furthest in understanding why this is and then applying this understanding to create a wood treatment process (I think they call it Acoustic Resonance Enhancement/A.R.E.) which mostly replicate this sound. So far the result is pretty convincing, but it's not 100%.
The other key is having a wet sand cast plate (vs a VPRO plate), it really does make a big difference. Many people will say it's a myth but ultimately you can always hear the whine of the inferior vpro plates vs the warm, bell like sound of wet sand cast iron ones. Which is where Kawai has gone very wrong with their Shigeru range. They have a stunningly well built piano, but unfortunately it can't get rid of it's shrill edge no matter what you do (and all because they use vpro plates).
Objectively the best pianos were made from around 1900 until the start of WW2 (it really was the golden era of piano making). Because they contain the two key elements mentioned above (and of course impeccable craftsmanship), if you find a fine golden era sample from a top German or American brand, with an intact original soundboard and rebuild it well, in my experience those pianos will almost always sound superior to everything else.
Having said that, post war to pre early 1970s Yamahas are possibly the best pianos ever made. Unfortunately no one rebuilds them cos of the poor value proposition, so they get ignored. As a happy owner of one such grand that has (so far!) a flawless original soundboard + new strings + hammers/shanks/rollers I can say that these pianos are in a league of their own (especially when it comes to the sustain!). Interestingly the new Yamah CFX released in '22 is also very promising. I haven't heard it in real life yet, but on numerous videos it sounds like it might just be the best new piano you can buy right now. It uses A.R.E. tech, a sand cast plate, is built fanatically and it all shows in the sound.
So I guess I would agree and disagree with the opinion in the video. Steinways are definitely overpriced. Nonetheless golden era examples are mostly excellent when rebuilt well and average ones/duds are indeed rare. But so it is with many other German and American golden era instruments that are always much more reasonably priced...
My main two cents to those considering buying a grand piano: don't buy new. It takes a long time for the wood to come into it's own and for the piano to achieve it's true sound. Also, going with vintage you're much more likely to pay an affordable price for a wet sand cast plate - something that is reserved only for the most expensive hand built instruments today. In other words: let someone else pay the new piano premium and pay for the privileged of waiting for it to mature...while you look for a restorable gem and a good restorer;)
Ultimately all this is only relevant if you're looking for a "Stradivarius" amongst pianos. However, if you just want to buy a hassle free, decent, reliable instrument at a reasonable price, nowadays it's much harder than ever to go very wrong. In fact, all the new more affordable Japanese pianos are now very good indeed. Even some of the new Chinese pianos aren't half bad! Just as long as you accept the fact that, while they still will end up costing the same or more as finding and restoring a golden era instrument you certainly won't be making any vintage recordings on them.
Hulk Hogan sure knows his shit about pianos
Good discussion. The overall value of an item obviously includes its quality and performance value, but for some buyers the asthetic value and brand value are just as important if not more so. Is a high gloss piano any different than its satin finish counterpart? Not from a quality and performance standpoint. But for some one finish will be worth much more than the other. That's individual choice. And luxury good makers tap that market. Kudos to S&S for developing their brand similar to Hermes, Bently, Rolex, etc. You don't find many 'American' brands of that caliber anymore... Regarding vintage, a similar argument could be made for refurbished classic cars. Are those cars worth what they're worth? Yes to some, because certain buyers place high value on the name and experience of driving and owning a certain car, which go beyond the car's general performance. Pianos (and certain other instruments) evendently are no different. This is economics 101. And I suspect as long as you see Steinway showrooms in expensive cities and districts the Steinway brand (old and new) will garner it's earned prestige.
that’s so true. I always thought that Steinway is over rated. I’ll rather go with Bosendorfer imperial to be honest. Sound quality, clarity of bass notes AND… Super sweet high notes while in steinways high notes sounds metallic… BOSENDORFER, Fazioli and Kawai that’s my 1-2-3 place
Do you guys have any fellings about the German Steinways vers the American Steinways?
If you're buying a grand, when it comes to quality/price ratio, I think Yamaha and Kawai are hard to compete with. When shopping for mine, I tried a lot of makes, including Bluthner, Fazioli, Steinway, Bosendorfer. For a lot of them, the price was prohibitive for a lot of these and I didn't think they were necessarily superior to the Yamahas and Kawais I tried. Eventually went with Yamaha C2. I've had it nine years and over that time it has had good stability, and it has maintained its great action and tone.
I agree! My choice was with Kawai. A very high quality piano at a fair price.
As a consumer, I was told by Steinway that I can still purchase their logo if the original comes off. They just will not sell it to rebuilders.
I broadcast a 45 minute concert nightly using my 1901 Steinway D recorded with my cell phone on Facebook. I have broadcast over 750 concerts over the past 3 years. I love my piano. Everthing about it is something I would want from a piano. I put lots of money into it except for the original soundboard and it was worth it. I would not exchange my 1901 Steinway for a Rolls Royce!
I might add that the sound of the piano depends, among other things, on the player and his ability to touch the piano properly.
My 1945 vintage Steinway, with it's original soundboard, sounds richer and more robust than many new ones. No problem with it.
If it sounds good, it is good. Duke Ellington, talking about music, but could just as well be pianos. Allways go with your ears. .
Long time musician here and bit of a 'it has to have warm balanced harmonics' and tone person, and blah blah. I actually played the 1915 model O you guys had about four months ago. I have played new Steinways, Bostons, Essex, 150K down to 18K at their studio. The sound and touch that O had was to me personally off the charts. I really badly wanted that thing but it needed 25K put into it - action couldn't handle fast passages. But listen, the tone, touch and response was so amazing, even thought the action had issues and what not. I can see how someone has to have that sound, that thing whatever it is. The Kawai GX2 behind it that day, yes, it was technically and mechnically superior, it was seemingly perfect. But it just didn't have that same vintage tone. Best thing I got from this video was the frankenSteinways disucssion. Actually, that you can't just piece meal it. Do it all, keep the soundboard if you can.
Long story short, I couldn't afford the O, I found a local K Kawai 1974 6'1" grand in pristine condition for 7,200.00 Value wise, it is amazing.
One of the most popular modifications the shop I was at did was to completely toss the old actions and replace them with either a new renner or WNG action. The other thing that O's usually need is to have some modifications done to the scale due to a horrible shift that occurs at the base tenner break. That piano has a horrible shift in inharmonious that those with good ears usually want addressed though most people' don't notice and perfect pitch has nothing to do with inharmonious. That being said on a lot of those older instraments its often times already been done when the strings were replaced. Their soundboard designs tend to not be very good longevity wise so you also are likely to suffer from a lower ressonance that the instrament should be producing due to down bearing issues and most tone tneds to come with the hammers. Of course there are other characteristics so rebuilding can always come at a risk since it essentially is building a new piano from the ground up. If a good rebuilder does it it usually comes out good, but objectively good doesn't always mean its to the customers subjective taste.
My reflections …. That was/is an Omega Speedmaster Professional, correct?
Good eye!
Steinway literally invented the modern piano and hasn’t changed the design in over 100 years. Concert pianists have the option of choosing other brands than Steinway but Steinway is still preferred by most. It’s a pianist’s piano. It doesn’t make you sound better than you actually are. The “honesty” of the instrument combined with its expansive color palate, depth, complexity, sustain and responsiveness make it a frequent choice for high level musicians. New Steinways can sound absolutely incredible and concert halls are filled with new pianos and not vintage ones for a reason. There’s no need to bash Steinway for the sake of being contrary. That being said the conversation of the actual video was informative, fair and interesting.
Well a lot of technitians don't bash steinway to be contrary. Issue with steinways are poor design decisions (btw most are talking about american steinway) Hamerg steinways are better and by design are a completely different piano so note that I am talking about american steinway here. They have issues with soundboard design that literally just make them objectively worse in terms of resonance when compared to just about every other high end manufacturer. Not to mention a horrific sostenuto design that sits on the action as opposed to the belly rail (Which hamberg does not do) and action ratio issues out the wazoo. I have run into many steinways that have 6-8 leads in the keys from the factory. That literally is an issue. Not to mention if you talk to store owners, the quality of the piano that they get tends to be very poor and requires lots and lots of work from the factory by the store's technitian to get in a presentable state. They tend to say "well its a hand built piano", but the issue is bechstein, blutner, shigiru kawai, Mason and Hamlin, steinberg, and others all make hand build pianos as well and come with very few issues out of the factory. Now thats not to say that a steinway isn't nice, but they are overcharging for the amount of factory hours it takes to build along with design issues that compromise the longevity and sound of the piano.
If you do the pluck test at note 72, you will notice that the sound dies out far faster on steinways than most other high end brand pianos. This is due to their soundboard design that is completely unpredictable. They use humidity changes to warp a soundboard instead of the method that every other manufacturer when to which is using curved rips to but in crown. The curved rib design was adopted because it allowed for a predictable and consistent soundboard that could be shaped to produce the best possible sound every time where it was a matter of luck for the older method. Most of what is referred to as the steinway sound is the hammer voicing. And same with the yamaha sound vs the kawai sound. That part is all about which hammers are used and how they are voiced which is a choice on the technitians side of things. Other aspects such as ressonance are objective. It is not good for the higher sounds to die out faster than a different piano. And that is a good measure of quality.
I worked in a rebuilding shop where we did tones of steinways. Usually the biggest thing we did was rip out and fix the action ratio issues, and fix all of the other massive design flaws with their system that only work to harm the isntrament and make it harder to play or decrease its lifespan. What they have is a really good name. And they got their pianos in all of the music colleges which increases brand recognition. And like any high end instrament they do sound good. However it can be better by going to most other brands. Its why steinway is the but of just about every joke at the PTG conferences and why many people have a bit of hostility. Its a piano that people recognize therefore they assume its the best without comparing it.
@@zackeryhardy9504 yeah I'm a bit tired of people saying Yamaha is bright, and Kawai is mello🎹🎶
IF you get a good one. They are inconsistent. Not all are great pianos and don't offer all you mention.
In my view, apart from those fabulous pre-Depression Chickering pianos, the best American piano has been Knabe, for those made in the U. S. of A., rather than (now) in Korea. All sizes of it, upright or grand, are really exceptional. The tone is wonderfully rich and sweet and a Knabe piano is built like a fortress, extrememely ruggèd and longlasting. My piano technicians feel the same way. To do better, one has to go for a German piano, especially Blûthner (of which I own a grand), Bechstein or Bôsendorfer, and, among other European pianos, the Fazioli.
What’s the solution? Buy new? And are the vintage soundboards better than the new ones?
IMO, the only real problem with old Steinways up to around the mid 1940's is verdigris which causes the action to be very heavy and can make them almost non functional. Have worked on such pianos, the only "repair" that works long term is to re-bush/repin all the action parts. There are lubricants/cleaners than can be injected into all the pins/bushings that will improve the action but these typically don't last very long before the stiffness returns. However, many people just deal with periodic lubrication and/or the heavier action. The heavy action may be workable but if the verdigris is bad enough, the hammers won't repeat quickly..sometimes not for 10-15 seconds...occasionally, on some pianos I have worked on, not even later the same day!
The verdigris develops due to a reaction between the brass pins and the chemistry Steinway used back on the bushings/wood action parts. From what I have seen, it SEEMS to me that the problem is most likely to occur on pianos made through the 1930's.
FWIW, the action for each key has four pins/bushings that affect moving parts, one in the hammer assembly and three in the wippen (action part). There is a fourth pin/bushing in the wippen that anchors a spring and doesn't really need replacing. Each hammer and each wippen must be removed to replace the pins/bushings. With 88 keys there are 352 bushings and pins to be replaced. It takes a while! Lubricating the parts only requires about an hour - and no disassembly required (with the proper tip on the lubricator. But It'll have to be done again in a few months to a year depending on the temperature/humidity.
How Steinway is set apart from other piano companies is in how they treat performing classical piano musicians prior to concerts. Other very high end pianos have, of course, often copied the technology evolved by Steinway.
Great conversation gentlemen. I especially like the watch analogy. However, Im not sure Rolex is the best brand to use. Rolex quality assurance is second to none, ane you can buy a more expensive watch, but you'll never find a better watch, dollar for dollar, in terms of attention to detail, fit and finish, and accuracy. My understanding is that we haven't always been able to say the same for Steinway.
Also, one question; has New York Steinway ever used Renner actions? I thought only Hamburg user Renner actions. Again, great conversation.
Of course another way to keep your brand in the forefront is to supply schools with your product. This creates the 'subliminal permanence' early on. This seems to be the case throughout the USA. Old or new, in general I have always preferred the sound of Schimmel and Kawai pianos over Steinways.
You pay for THAT WOOD< like a Stratavarius and the design/workmanship. THEY REBUILD BEAUTIFULLY (Steinway) .....There's no better. You are pulling up "worst case" to make your point. Yes, ANY PIANO can go bad, but Steinways are built like tanks, I have one, ONE HUNDRED YEARS OLD, and sound FANTASTIC< PLAYS FANTASTIC. Steinway action is tremendous. Renner is fine as well, but it's not a major upgrade, one to the other.
every old piano has to be renovated évery piano. a new or re-tensioned soundboard is necessary after 60 years for EVERY piano.
Like Michelin Tires?
As to the soundboard, its value really has to do with how many shims and how much loss of crown exists. The fact that it is aged wood is a separate issue. Old growth spruce still exists and there are high level soundboard makers that make as good or better boards than even vintage Steinway.
Then, if one has to have more than just a few shims then it is irrelevant whether it is a golden age Steinway because there are too many shims and regardless, it certainly does not remotely sound like it did originally.
New or used, in perfect condition or falling apart, there is a large price premium to be paid for Steinway instruments. The premium isn't worth it if music making is your only concern and it certainly isn't worth it to me. The premium is definitely worth it to a lot of Steinway piano owners and I would guess that many of them play very little or not at all.
Get a well made piano that's brand new and play the hell out of it while the strings stretch and the hammers cup and and your piano tech works to keep it voiced and regulated and gradually makes it into a stable, expressive instrument. That's how you get a great piano, but it takes time and money and none of this matters if you don't play.
So you’re saying the _real_ problem with Steinway is that if you own one you feel like you’re being stalked by NPR and NYT 😂. No but truthfully the reason they have value is because it’s a reliable versatile sound. You can get enough clarity out if it if you need it and are used to playing Yamaha, you can get enough punchiness and bite out of it if you’ve been playing other American makes, and you can get enough glassiness out of it if you’ve been playing European pianos. Now, there are of course other pianos that can be as versatile but none as consistent and proven, and so if you have the money it’s worth saving the search and just getting a Steinway. A lot of egos get tied up in it but every piano just has 12 notes. Music is above brand names, it’s just a ratchet set.
Are you allowed to visit this place?
You can add Mason & Hamlin, Chickering, Pleyel, Erard, C.Bechstein as piano that might worth something when you want to invest in it (you'll probably never get your money back). It's too bad that old piano doesn't worth much rebuilding.
Funny enough the best piano I ever played was a knabe built in 1912 that was compltely rebuilt by my mentor who had it as his personal piano until someone wanting to buy the steinway he was selling played it and made and offer that would have been really hard to refuse given he could just do another one already having a 2nd knabe from the same era in the shop waiting on a rebuild.
@@zackeryhardy9504 I've tried a recent Knabe made in Korea, I think, and I was very impressed to the point where I went back to maybe buy it. It was well above the budget that I had in mind but it was gone.
Still, it's hard to make the call that you will get your money back. It's a lesser known company for a lot of people.
@@michelprimeau4531 Its a knabe in name only. The Burgetts bought the name and contracted young cheng to make the piano. Good piano, but its a young cheng. Just as current baldwins are parsons group pianos and in no way represent the baldwin design they were known for. Bostons are made by kawai with a kawai design but more cheaply made than their normal production pianos.
So as you can see, the name on the fallboard doesn't mean much. Just listen to the piano as if there were no name on it. Then pick a few you like and pick the best priced one.
@@zackeryhardy9504 Actually it's own by Samick like Seiler. They bought the brand knowing it met something. Even if it's just the name, the Knabe WKV-132 is impressive.
@@michelprimeau4531 I work for pianodisc. We bought the name and contracted young cheng to do them with a few of our own changes. Originally it was so there was a recognizable name on the pianos instead of PianoDisc on the front, but also just sold a lot of them as is.
Though I do know Samick did have the name for a bit too. Names do get passed around. I have seen samick and parsons group made Baldwins.
But I got to be honest. Young cheng and samick both make decent pianos. It could be either one. Depends on the year of course. But we made a lot of knabes.
Perhaps I missed the point of this entire discussion, as you hit the nail on the head by simply stating, “Steinway pianos are worth what someone is willing to pay.” Whether that’s good or bad doesn’t matter, at least to me. Yes, a Steinway has more name recognition compared to other manufactures but I see no issue with that. Especially when talking vintage items, one can make the same argument regarding pre-war Martin guitars, or old air-cooled Porsches, or just about anything “vintage” for which people lust. There are certain characteristics these things of old possess that things of new simply can’t. If someone with no musical experience wants to drop $60k+ on an early 1900s Steinway because they think it’ll give them status, who cares? For those who are musicians and/or have a true appreciation for turn of the century craftsmanship and tonal qualities that can’t be matched today, there are plenty of other less expensive, and perhaps better options out there. The only part of this discussion on which I agree is keep as much originality as possible when restoring anything vintage and use the most reputable restorers in the business, if current and future values are important to you. Also, as stated in the video, keep the paper trail.
The old girl sings sweet.
Bell like clarity but a fat sound (meaning rich and dimensional) at the same time astounding projection and power but also (bloom). These are the criteria. Furthermore If a great Grand isn't tuned well with enough stretch to accommodate modern chromatically altered harmonies and different levels of resolution (this is also related to soundboard size quality and thickness strategies) then it's hard to evaluate an instrument. But pianos aren't violins they don't age well. Pianos are individuals and how they evolve are greatly influenced by the lives they've been subjected to. Humidity changes are torture for pianos. Much more then temperature changes. That said if you invest in an expensive great instrument like a modern Bechstein or Mason & Hamlin or Fazioli and you don't install a damp chaser then you haven't done your research. But the toughest most age resistant pianos are the wonderfully over engineered Mason & Hamlin.
Totally get thisnvideo but re value: right or wrong, vintage steinways are worth what people pay for them. Perceived value "is" value.
Guys, you need to write down what you are going to say you kept saying the same thing over and over and it was like spinning your wheels.
I had a model D steinway concert grand in a rosewood case dated 1882
I sold it in 1990 and regret selling it
Although the action needed an overall it was still incredible the texture power and the harmonics were amazing
We have a Steinway B bought in 1988 used for 7 years tune yearly, want to sell but do not know how, your suggestions are appreciated.
Didnt know jj reddick and george carlin liked pianos so much
What brands are equal to Steinway but sell for far less.
I'm not too much into the vintage bandwagon but I do love old instruments. I don't mind if everything has been changed. I'm a bit uncomfortable when it comes to the soundboard. I prefer the sound of season soundboard.
Old piano have a story.
Also, some old pianos are amazing piece of furniture. They have beautiful cabinet that are way too expansive to build today.
Actually it really doesn't cost that much more to do. Its actually an issue of market preference. They just don't sell as well.
Wow. That piano is very harsh sounding and needs a tuning. I think any number of new pianos would sound a lot better unless this one gets a rebuild.
The piano is worth 10 grand easy based on the sound signature.
Steinway is a very temperamental brand. Of course, they make a fine instrument, but it will need to be rebuilt within 20-30 years. It is extremely rare for my shop to come across a used steinway that actually plays or sounds good. 9/10 it costs us so much to repair/rebuild/re-regulate the action that we break even on the piano. Blows my mind that hand-made Yamaha's from the late 70's end up performing way better than their overpriced competitors. We can sell used Yamaha's at the same price as used Steinways and make 3x's the profit. You know a used Yamaha is better because 'they just work.' Yamaha has excellent craftsmanship and engineering which puts Steinway to shame.
I'd tend to agree. Yamahas are very consistent. A 20-year old Yamaha C7 was better than every older Steinway I played when I was piano shopping. I have no brand loyalty and let my ears do the talking. I was not impressed with used Steinways, except for one Steinway D, which was way out of my budget. Mason & Hamlin and Baldwin were two other standout marques. As well as Bosendorfer, but again, way out of budget. My guess as to why I was unimpressed by the vintage Steinways that I played would be that the quality of the restorations were poor and were so far away from what Steinway originally intended.
I agree. Yamaha is very high quality and last very long.
Hand made yamahas?
@@vickiehorowitz1934 Yep! Some of the finest pianos in existence
Agree. Bunch of crappy old steinways out there. Many people I know have bought them without really listening to them. Not great sound.
Steinway... like Rolex. The marketing tactics are nearly identical.
lots of marketing gimmick and misinformation out there around the brand, just like some other brands. But steinway has a more successful marketing campaign.
i'ts always worth rebuilding a steinway.... álways .......... with the original parts from the original factory done by REAL experts. instead of internet'hero's with a big ego !
I’m a noob to the piano world but have played guitar for almost three decades. Unless you have a large hall inside your house, I think you might as well go digital. Any sound qualities of a nice acoustic instrument are lost if you don’t have the room to match. Also, Ted sounds way better recording a digital for Alamo videos than the recorded sound they captured with the mic’d up Steinway for this video.
I did hear NY Steinways can be a hit or miss issue, however I agree for an acoustic piano you have to have the right space for it🎹🎶
Steinway is a German- US Company. Sorry to correct you. The founder was an immigrant from Germany and started his company in the US.
And there are differences between a German Steinway and an American Steinway. Of course both being totally overpriced and not worth the money nowadays 😅
Eh, all Americans are immigrants (other than Natives and African Americans). Steinway is an American company.
I disagree. If you want a piano last for generations you have to replace parts eventually.
Steinway took on a gimmick aura. More impressive because they cost MORE. That's America.
Working at UCLA, I can confidently say that vintage Steinways are booboo
Bosendorfer, Bluthner, Bechstein, ALL BETTER than Steinway!!!!
I have a 1900
Steinway model B. Has never been rebuilt and well maintained. I love the warm sound, commanding bass and crystal clear treble.