Must me fun to cut into someone's transom. On the other hand, it is good to be able trust someone with your expertise to do it. Thanks for showing this process.
Excellent work, and courage/luck to do it in the water. With my luck i would drop tools, bad weather would come and be very worried about the hole thing. Thanks Antonio
Nice job. Outboards make good sense on boats to about 30 feet. Saves space and small diesels are a pain, having had both twice each. Katapoul has been across the pacific and back twice with a 9.9 over the transom and through the transom scoop.
After reading Across Islands and Oceans a number of years ago, it's been great watching your videos and seeing the spectacular work you do on these old folk boats. I have a Bristol 27 with an outboard, and I've been dying to convert the well to a tip out. Seeing this work done on a Triton - and while in the water, no less - is really spectaculacular. As always, your attention to detail and thoughtfulness about the long-term needs of the boat (e.g. rudder shaft head maintenance) is great. With water-cooled 4-stroke motors like the Sail-Pro, what level of ventilation is necessary? I understand it still needs air for combustion, but can the motor be run with the well hatch all closed up to reduce noise?
With the sliding boards open the motor gets enough air to run well with both lids closed. If motoring in hot weather for long periods I open the top lid for a minute every 20 minutes or so to check the motor is not overheating because it does build up heat over time. The small forward facing lid can be opened with the top lid shut as a compromise to lessen noise and heat buildup.
Wow! Amazinghow long did it take you to do this. through the magic of Video you make it look like this was an afternoon project. I know that is not the case.
It took me about 75 hours labor with my wife assisting part time as needed. It would take certainly take longer for someone doing this the first time since I already had measurements and patterns from earlier jobs.
Thanks very much for sharing this mod (and the whole refit) with us. I have a Cape Dory 26 with a well and the old Yamaha 9.9 e-start 20" shaft has finally bit the dust. I see that you have opted for not only an extra long shaft, but also a 6HP. I think my CD26 displacement weight is considerably less than the Triton. Do you feel that the 6hp (or even an 8hp) would be a doable choice? I mostly use the engine for negotiating moorings/slips and narrow channels, though occasional coastal and river/reach steaming is a definite possibility up here in ME. Thanks.
If the 8hp is an intermediate class you might consider it but if it is the same physical size and weight as a 9.8 or 9.9 then better to get the larger one. A 25" extra-long shaft on either size motor will improve performance in rough water. I'm not sure if the Yamaha 9.9 is 4-stroke and the same weight/size as the 9.8 Tohatsu but the 9.8 has the advantage over the Sailpro 6hp of less vibration and noise, electric and manual start, a slightly higher output alternator, generally more reliable and longer lasting, and of course more thrust for powering into strong wind and chop and the pitiful small reverse thrust of the 6 is much improved with a bigger motor. The 6 is cheaper and lighter and plenty of power for headwinds and chop up to about 20 knots so that would be my choice. And the 6 is small enough that you could convert the well to a tilt-up version as described on my website for other similar sized boats. If going to the 6HP SailPro I found on the CD26 I worked on that we could in future reduce the flooding and turbulence and improve performance in rough water by glassing closed the forward 5" of the existing hull hole and narrowing it by 2". The original hole was 154 sq.in. and can be reduced to 83 sq.in. (45% reduction). Then the motor can be lowered up to 1.5" and moved aft 3.75" by relocating the motor mount board. Another improvement would be adding a removable cover board around the opening between motor shaft and hull. If you want to know the experience of using the 6 on a CD26 you can email me thru atomvoyages.com and I'll put you in touch with the owner of the 26 featured in this video: th-cam.com/video/UbxIHBGWUT0/w-d-xo.html
These outboard wells are fantastic! What a great modification for a small sailboat. I assume you need a boat with a large stern overhang like the Alberg and triton. Also just looking from the final frames it appears that the prop will just make the water. Do you get a lot of cavitation when there is a swell? Being so far astern? I had a Gemini Cat with a long shaft outboard and the cavitation was a constant problem in anything but flat water.
Good question. It's important for people to know an outboard has limitations and will suck air if the waves get big enough. That's one of the trade-offs. But these perform about as well as they can because we use 25" extra long shaft, not just the 20" long shaft, motors are mounted on centerline as low and far forward as possible (nearly two feet forward of a transom mount), and the prop position is almost as low as the original inboard prop. They are for sailors who understand an outboard motor is not designed for heavy weather motoring.
+atomvoyager thanx so much. I rely a lot on the knowledge and experience of sailors and craftsmen like you.. By the, way. Loved your latest book. I quoted it in a post to my friends on Facebook. "I hope your own life contains an epic voyage, and that you affirm the voice within telling you that you mustn’t wait until you are dying to discover you should start living." James Baldwin Well done sir
I had a Endeavour 26 (Australian boat) which already comes with a cockpit well but a previous owner had done a similar modification that you do.... it was an excellent modification. How did you go filling in the old hole and fairing the outside whilst the boat was in the water - that would have difficult to get it faired and painted on the outside.Did you not both too much on the outside fairing for it to be done later when the boat next hauled ?? Did you pre mould a section and just glass it in ?? or did you just do it the conventional hard way by hand from the dinghy..... I am curious how you handled that part of the process. Cheers ..... PS I do love your work !!
We emptied the aft end of the boat and shifted the spare anchors and other heavy gear to the foredeck as well as several 5 gal water jugs which gave me about 10" of clearance to the water at the old hull cutout. Then I taped some semi-rigid plastic sheet I had over the hole from the outside to act as a form. Laid in fiberglass, plywood core and more glass on the inside and sanded fair and applied touchup paint from the dinghy. It should be plenty strong enough but if the owner wants, during a future haulout he can grind back the exterior joint and add glass and re-fair and paint.
Thankyou for taking the time to answer my question, you have always been outstanding for taking the time to reply to my previous queries, I really enjoy your work as you give these old girls a new lease of life.
There are a couple videos on this by you on different boats, but what I haven't seen is how the sliding hatch bolts are mounted. Are they T-bolts epoxied into place, or carriage bolts through the hull? The guess is they are glasses in from the inside, but how they stay in place while drying has alluded me.
Holes are drilled all the way thru the hull and countersunk on the outside. Flat head countersunk machine screws are then epoxied in with heads below flush and held with masking tape until hardened. Then some touch up paint is put over epoxy. If you are going to build this you can email me through atomvoyages.com and tell me the model boat you have and size motor you will use and I can email you a file of detailed instructions.
Sorry to be blunt, but how much would a job like this cost? I just bought a Columbia 28 with a outboard mount on the transom and need an extra long shaft motor just to get it in the water which seems awkward and impractical so this seems like a much better and honestly more aesthetic solution.
The modification takes about 90 hours labor depending on the boat so that would cost around $4k to hire someone. Materials excluding motor are about $1,100. I just published a step by step article on this on the Nov 2018 Good Old Boat magazine for DIY. But this conversion may not be suitable to the C28. You need at least 28" inches between transom and rudder post measured at about 12" above the waterline for the 6hp motor and 32" for the 9.8 and an overhanging transom to make it work. If you need to keep it on a transom bracket you may find a tiller extension handle helpful as well as using the highest lift motor bracket you can find. The Garhauer OB-125 has at least 16" of lift. It' may not be listed in their online catalog but you can order by phone.
I'm not so familiar with the bigger boats but you can compare some slightly smaller versions here: bluewaterboats.org/about/index/ It may not be on their list but the Hinckley Bermuda 40 comes to mind.
Hi James, Cool design! I'm looking to do the same on my Triton #648 (SV Titan) w/ a 6hp Tohatsu, bought the 'this old boat' issue with your well guide, but its for an alberg 30 & a 9.8HP. True they are similar in dimensions, but was wondering if the overall well 'box' dimensions in the article would be the same on a Triton, but I would just need to build out the box? Are there any other drawings or articles specifically for the Triton? Also is it absolutely required to have a split backstay? Thank you!
Some of the dimensions are different for the Triton. You don't need a split backstay. That was something a previous owner did. If you contact me through atomvoyages.com I can email you the dimension sketches and instructions for no charge. You can build it from there on your own or if you want full size paper patterns of all the panels and hull/transom cutout pattern you can buy them for $88.
Kris, I received your email but your email address is not working when I reply . Better check that and try again. You also contacted me a year ago and you had the same problem.
What kind of ply are you using? Marine grade? Exterior Grade? In your opinion is it worth the extra cost of you are going to be glassing over the panels anyway?
We use marine ply but we also use other good grades of interior and exterior ply, often the "hardwood Plywood" that has a veneer of birch or oak. Since we carefully seal all edges and surfaces with several layers of epoxy, it often doesn't matter.
I'm surprised you don't mount the outboard on a springloaded bracket to raise and lower the motor vertically so you don't need to weakne the hull by cutting the long slot.
Weakening the hull was an initial concern, but the added fiberglassed bulkheads and reinforcement panels make that area even stronger than original so it's not an issue. If trying to retract the motor vertically in a well with springs or tackle then the motor would stick up way too high when retracted. The other option of transom-mounted outboard brackets is they place the motor off centerline if using a windvane, are awkward to reach, vulnerable to theft and waves, are mounted just enough further aft and exposed so that the prop sucks air or motorhead gets dunked in waves, its uglier, weight is further aft, and so on. For some boats a transom bracket is the only solution and I used to use one on my own boat before coming up with something way better.
A previous owner decided he wanted twin backstays for redundancy since he already had to relocate the original centerline backstay to allow the windvane to mount on center, so he added external chain plates to the transom corners. If he hadn't done this I would have needed to add a single external backstay chain plate a couple inches off center to allow the Norvane to mount on center. That's how I did it on my own boat and others.
The regular long shaft, commonly referred to as 20" but may actually measure 22", can be used on a Triton where the overhang of the transom is close to the water. I used a 20" on my first Triton tilt-up well because that was the motor the boat already had. It works but the prop can suck air in rough water so the 25" will perform better.
It is less likely to be damaged by collision with a dock or another boat, less chance of being stolen, less unsightly, doesn't get soaked in waves, performs better since you can reach the throttle and shifter, weight is better distributed, prop is less prone to sucking air in choppy water, the alternator cables and fuel hose is not exposed outside and if using windvane self-steering the motor can be installed on the boat's centerline. If the motor is off-center on the transom in order to clear the windvane then performance is worse when bolt rolls to waves and the prop is either out of the water or motor head gets dunked under.
@@atomvoyager Thanks for answer, I've read your books and it seems security is a big problem in some places. for storm do you just put it down and secure with boards for incoming water? I sadly have transom hang rudder and can not do that but this looks like a very clever idea.
@@vaidotasratkus7619 In rough water or storm you keep the motor tilted up and then slide the cover boards shut. Unfortunately, this modification is only suitable for a few boat designs with the right stern shape and dimensions.
The work and ugliness is more than balanced by the benefits over diesel to some of us experienced small boat voyagers. Traditionalist day-sailors who spend most of their time admiring the lines of the boat at a marina or depend on motoring more than sailing skills, can't get their mind around that. There are hundreds of this model boat with original gas or diesel inboards. I obviously don't believe that every one of them must be preserved as is when some modifications can improve the performance and suitability for sailors who appreciate the difference.
Must me fun to cut into someone's transom. On the other hand, it is good to be able trust someone with your expertise to do it. Thanks for showing this process.
top notch craftmanship. Even being a powerboater I really enjoy watching your finished products.
You are truly gifted James.
James, you have done it again! Beautiful work.
Very nice installation! You do really good work. "Attention to detail" is a phrase my customers used on me when I restored cars. It suits you too!
Contrary to what someone said earlier, I like the look of the refit and you have achieved a useful
tabletop surface there. Fantastic.
Excellent work, and courage/luck to do it in the water. With my luck i would drop tools, bad weather would come and be very worried about the hole thing.
Thanks
Antonio
always creating 5 start solutions! congratulations!
Nice planning, impressive execution, like your website and your practical approach to cruising.
Nice job. Outboards make good sense on boats to about 30 feet. Saves space and small diesels are a pain, having had both twice each. Katapoul has been across the pacific and back twice with a 9.9 over the transom and through the transom scoop.
That is amazing craftsmanship
Excellent design considerations and quality build... again! Thanks for the video.
wavesfromSeattle
After reading Across Islands and Oceans a number of years ago, it's been great watching your videos and seeing the spectacular work you do on these old folk boats. I have a Bristol 27 with an outboard, and I've been dying to convert the well to a tip out. Seeing this work done on a Triton - and while in the water, no less - is really spectaculacular. As always, your attention to detail and thoughtfulness about the long-term needs of the boat (e.g. rudder shaft head maintenance) is great.
With water-cooled 4-stroke motors like the Sail-Pro, what level of ventilation is necessary? I understand it still needs air for combustion, but can the motor be run with the well hatch all closed up to reduce noise?
With the sliding boards open the motor gets enough air to run well with both lids closed. If motoring in hot weather for long periods I open the top lid for a minute every 20 minutes or so to check the motor is not overheating because it does build up heat over time. The small forward facing lid can be opened with the top lid shut as a compromise to lessen noise and heat buildup.
Beautiful work! (Wish you were at my marina!) peace
I just purchased a 77 Kittiwake. Owner took care of it. Love to refit with a better motor well and interior.
Now I am thinking about extending my boat to add above waterline engine well 😁
I am looking at a CD30 and doing the same.
Actually, I'd go one step further, a well mounted electric outboard.
Thanks for yor inspiration.if i can see the finnished product and how yu do it .i can usually do it
it looks very nice
Wow! Amazinghow long did it take you to do this. through the magic of Video you make it look like this was an afternoon project. I know that is not the case.
It took me about 75 hours labor with my wife assisting part time as needed. It would take certainly take longer for someone doing this the first time since I already had measurements and patterns from earlier jobs.
Thanks very much for sharing this mod (and the whole refit) with us. I have a Cape Dory 26 with a well and the old Yamaha 9.9 e-start 20" shaft has finally bit the dust. I see that you have opted for not only an extra long shaft, but also a 6HP. I think my CD26 displacement weight is considerably less than the Triton. Do you feel that the 6hp (or even an 8hp) would be a doable choice? I mostly use the engine for negotiating moorings/slips and narrow channels, though occasional coastal and river/reach steaming is a definite possibility up here in ME. Thanks.
If the 8hp is an intermediate class you might consider it but if it is the same physical size and weight as a 9.8 or 9.9 then better to get the larger one. A 25" extra-long shaft on either size motor will improve performance in rough water. I'm not sure if the Yamaha 9.9 is 4-stroke and the same weight/size as the 9.8 Tohatsu but the 9.8 has the advantage over the Sailpro 6hp of less vibration and noise, electric and manual start, a slightly higher output alternator, generally more reliable and longer lasting, and of course more thrust for powering into strong wind and chop and the pitiful small reverse thrust of the 6 is much improved with a bigger motor. The 6 is cheaper and lighter and plenty of power for headwinds and chop up to about 20 knots so that would be my choice. And the 6 is small enough that you could convert the well to a tilt-up version as described on my website for other similar sized boats. If going to the 6HP SailPro I found on the CD26 I worked on that we could in future reduce the flooding and turbulence and improve performance in rough water by glassing closed the forward 5" of the existing hull hole and narrowing it by 2". The original hole was 154 sq.in. and can be reduced to 83 sq.in. (45% reduction). Then the motor can be lowered up to 1.5" and moved aft 3.75" by relocating the motor mount board. Another improvement would be adding a removable cover board around the opening between motor shaft and hull. If you want to know the experience of using the 6 on a CD26 you can email me thru atomvoyages.com and I'll put you in touch with the owner of the 26 featured in this video:
th-cam.com/video/UbxIHBGWUT0/w-d-xo.html
@@atomvoyager Thanks very much for this info. I will take a bit of time to digest and follow up with you on email. Cheers.
These outboard wells are fantastic! What a great modification for a small sailboat. I assume you need a boat with a large stern overhang like the Alberg and triton. Also just looking from the final frames it appears that the prop will just make the water. Do you get a lot of cavitation when there is a swell? Being so far astern? I had a Gemini Cat with a long shaft outboard and the cavitation was a constant problem in anything but flat water.
Good question. It's important for people to know an outboard has limitations and will suck air if the waves get big enough. That's one of the trade-offs. But these perform about as well as they can because we use 25" extra long shaft, not just the 20" long shaft, motors are mounted on centerline as low and far forward as possible (nearly two feet forward of a transom mount), and the prop position is almost as low as the original inboard prop. They are for sailors who understand an outboard motor is not designed for heavy weather motoring.
+atomvoyager thanx so much. I rely a lot on the knowledge and experience of sailors and craftsmen like you..
By the, way. Loved your latest book. I quoted it in a post to my friends on Facebook.
"I hope your own life contains an epic voyage, and that you affirm the voice within telling you that you mustn’t wait until you are dying to discover you should start living."
James Baldwin
Well done sir
I had a Endeavour 26 (Australian boat) which already comes with a cockpit well but a previous owner had done a similar modification that you do.... it was an excellent modification. How did you go filling in the old hole and fairing the outside whilst the boat was in the water - that would have difficult to get it faired and painted on the outside.Did you not both too much on the outside fairing for it to be done later when the boat next hauled ?? Did you pre mould a section and just glass it in ?? or did you just do it the conventional hard way by hand from the dinghy..... I am curious how you handled that part of the process. Cheers ..... PS I do love your work !!
We emptied the aft end of the boat and shifted the spare anchors and other heavy gear to the foredeck as well as several 5 gal water jugs which gave me about 10" of clearance to the water at the old hull cutout. Then I taped some semi-rigid plastic sheet I had over the hole from the outside to act as a form. Laid in fiberglass, plywood core and more glass on the inside and sanded fair and applied touchup paint from the dinghy. It should be plenty strong enough but if the owner wants, during a future haulout he can grind back the exterior joint and add glass and re-fair and paint.
Thankyou for taking the time to answer my question, you have always been outstanding for taking the time to reply to my previous queries, I really enjoy your work as you give these old girls a new lease of life.
Looks great!!
Nice work!!
Could u film all the steps including cutting and fibreglass sing not just finished product
A beautiful job!
There are a couple videos on this by you on different boats, but what I haven't seen is how the sliding hatch bolts are mounted. Are they T-bolts epoxied into place, or carriage bolts through the hull?
The guess is they are glasses in from the inside, but how they stay in place while drying has alluded me.
Holes are drilled all the way thru the hull and countersunk on the outside. Flat head countersunk machine screws are then epoxied in with heads below flush and held with masking tape until hardened. Then some touch up paint is put over epoxy. If you are going to build this you can email me through atomvoyages.com and tell me the model boat you have and size motor you will use and I can email you a file of detailed instructions.
Sorry to be blunt, but how much would a job like this cost? I just bought a Columbia 28 with a outboard mount on the transom and need an extra long shaft motor just to get it in the water which seems awkward and impractical so this seems like a much better and honestly more aesthetic solution.
The modification takes about 90 hours labor depending on the boat so that would cost around $4k to hire someone. Materials excluding motor are about $1,100. I just published a step by step article on this on the Nov 2018 Good Old Boat magazine for DIY. But this conversion may not be suitable to the C28. You need at least 28" inches between transom and rudder post measured at about 12" above the waterline for the 6hp motor and 32" for the 9.8 and an overhanging transom to make it work. If you need to keep it on a transom bracket you may find a tiller extension handle helpful as well as using the highest lift motor bracket you can find. The Garhauer OB-125 has at least 16" of lift. It' may not be listed in their online catalog but you can order by phone.
Great build. This is off subject do you know of any sailboats built in the 70s similar to the m52
I'm not so familiar with the bigger boats but you can compare some slightly smaller versions here:
bluewaterboats.org/about/index/
It may not be on their list but the Hinckley Bermuda 40 comes to mind.
Hi James, Cool design! I'm looking to do the same on my Triton #648 (SV Titan) w/ a 6hp Tohatsu, bought the 'this old boat' issue with your well guide, but its for an alberg 30 & a 9.8HP. True they are similar in dimensions, but was wondering if the overall well 'box' dimensions in the article would be the same on a Triton, but I would just need to build out the box? Are there any other drawings or articles specifically for the Triton? Also is it absolutely required to have a split backstay? Thank you!
Some of the dimensions are different for the Triton. You don't need a split backstay. That was something a previous owner did. If you contact me through atomvoyages.com I can email you the dimension sketches and instructions for no charge. You can build it from there on your own or if you want full size paper patterns of all the panels and hull/transom cutout pattern you can buy them for $88.
Kris, I received your email but your email address is not working when I reply . Better check that and try again. You also contacted me a year ago and you had the same problem.
What kind of ply are you using? Marine grade? Exterior Grade? In your opinion is it worth the extra cost of you are going to be glassing over the panels anyway?
We use marine ply but we also use other good grades of interior and exterior ply, often the "hardwood Plywood" that has a veneer of birch or oak. Since we carefully seal all edges and surfaces with several layers of epoxy, it often doesn't matter.
stay safe my friend
I'm surprised you don't mount the outboard on a springloaded bracket to raise and lower the motor vertically so you don't need to weakne the hull by cutting the long slot.
Weakening the hull was an initial concern, but the added fiberglassed bulkheads and reinforcement panels make that area even stronger than original so it's not an issue. If trying to retract the motor vertically in a well with springs or tackle then the motor would stick up way too high when retracted. The other option of transom-mounted outboard brackets is they place the motor off centerline if using a windvane, are awkward to reach, vulnerable to theft and waves, are mounted just enough further aft and exposed so that the prop sucks air or motorhead gets dunked in waves, its uglier, weight is further aft, and so on. For some boats a transom bracket is the only solution and I used to use one on my own boat before coming up with something way better.
What has been done with the backstay on this Triton?
A previous owner decided he wanted twin backstays for redundancy since he already had to relocate the original centerline backstay to allow the windvane to mount on center, so he added external chain plates to the transom corners. If he hadn't done this I would have needed to add a single external backstay chain plate a couple inches off center to allow the Norvane to mount on center. That's how I did it on my own boat and others.
Hi James, Big fan of your work! Any idea if a 22" long shaft would work in an installation like this, or is an extra long 25" the mimimum?
The regular long shaft, commonly referred to as 20" but may actually measure 22", can be used on a Triton where the overhang of the transom is close to the water. I used a 20" on my first Triton tilt-up well because that was the motor the boat already had. It works but the prop can suck air in rough water so the 25" will perform better.
what are advantages vs hanging it outside?
It is less likely to be damaged by collision with a dock or another boat, less chance of being stolen, less unsightly, doesn't get soaked in waves, performs better since you can reach the throttle and shifter, weight is better distributed, prop is less prone to sucking air in choppy water, the alternator cables and fuel hose is not exposed outside and if using windvane self-steering the motor can be installed on the boat's centerline. If the motor is off-center on the transom in order to clear the windvane then performance is worse when bolt rolls to waves and the prop is either out of the water or motor head gets dunked under.
@@atomvoyager Thanks for answer, I've read your books and it seems security is a big problem in some places. for storm do you just put it down and secure with boards for incoming water? I sadly have transom hang rudder and can not do that but this looks like a very clever idea.
@@vaidotasratkus7619 In rough water or storm you keep the motor tilted up and then slide the cover boards shut. Unfortunately, this modification is only suitable for a few boat designs with the right stern shape and dimensions.
Very Nice!
All that work. Just throw a two banger diesel in and keep the lines instead of that ugly contraption.
The work and ugliness is more than balanced by the benefits over diesel to some of us experienced small boat voyagers. Traditionalist day-sailors who spend most of their time admiring the lines of the boat at a marina or depend on motoring more than sailing skills, can't get their mind around that. There are hundreds of this model boat with original gas or diesel inboards. I obviously don't believe that every one of them must be preserved as is when some modifications can improve the performance and suitability for sailors who appreciate the difference.