The Other Side of CROATIA | Beyond the Tourist Zone
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- An interesting day exploring the back roads and small towns of Croatia, in which I ended up finding a ruined castle hidden in the forest where Jackie Chan almost died while attempting a stunt for the movie "Armour of God".
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"Gamela" by E's Jammy Jams
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"Klezmer Feeling 4" by Gunnar Johnsen
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"Wheel Of Karma" by Audionautix, licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (creativecommon...)
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"Some Other Place" by South London HiFi
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Gabriel is a world traveler and travel writer who has been adventuring around the world off and on since his first trip to Europe in the summer of 1990 when he was 18 years old. He is author of "Gabe's Guide to Budget Travel", "Following My Thumb" and several other books available on Amazon.com and elsewhere.
Thanks a lot for watching and safe journeys!
The Other Side of CROATIA | Beyond the Tourist Zone
![The Wall Song ร้องข้ามกำแพง | EP.213 | กรีน อัษฎาพร | 3 ต.ค. 67 [1/5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3KrlLbCsadI/mqdefault.jpg)
Croatia is such a beautiful country! Glad you're enjoying it Gabe!
Hi Sir
Croatia....is so beautiful....love that old castle would love to explore....
you have visited more places in croatia than most of us locals...
Best comment 👏 🏆 ❤
He probably has considering how many vids he's done, but personally I think I might edge him out for now, I've been to Vukovar, Zagreb, Kumrovec, Tuhelj, Poreč, Pula, Opatija, Rijeka, Crikvenica, Novi Vinodolski, Plitvicka jezera, Zadar, Sibenik, Split, Dubrovnik, Brijuni, Krk, Pag, Rab and Korcula.
I've been to more places, but I don't count those as I only passed through with max one stop to eat.
Hehehehe so true 😂. Nažalost
izađi i ti nekad iz kuce
Nice travelling channel I love it
It reminds me of Holmes County, Ohio, where the Amish community lives. I'm from Colombiana County, and we used to drive down there several times a year. Anyway, Croatia seems like a beautiful place to live. Greetings from Argentina!
Thanks Gabe...for NOT taking the freeway! The little villages, country lanes, small farms, etc. are so much more real and interesting! Thanks for pulling over--and letting us get an up-close glimpse of the beautiful rural countryside. I felt like I was standing there too...breathing the Croatian air. Awesome vicarious experience ♥
Very mysterious about that abandoned property...there was something in the bowls on the floor. And blankets....Wonder if they left in a hurry?
The little towns look so clean--and nice. Looks like the people are living well in their beautiful surroundings. I'm commenting too much so I will stop. I guess you can tell I'm enjoying this video.
@@margietucker1719nope just the pots put there for roof leaks.
That house is very interesting indeed from completely different perspective.
That it was built completely in the old traditional style of the region with the upper floor built in wood, and lower floor in stone or bricks, but that style prefates modern times, pre ww2 era, and i've neve seen such a house, that this lower has those modern brick/clay blocks that are certainly post ww2 origin, and the upper part built from wood.
Building blocks but no mortar/facade on them, and wood construction above, speaks of some poor rural family with no education and not much money to spend, but they probably had some land and some woods so the planks were for free, religious pictures on the walls, and that type of vessels on the floor, common for washing before indoor plumbing, tells you about people born before the ww2, but built a new house post ww2, somewhere probably late 50s in a village, and that was probably a decent house for average village folks of that area of that time, this isn't the norther bread basket, this rural area is more about forestry, smaller plots of land for variuos crops and few cows that roam hilly pastures, and ofc some wineyards too, and in a river valley you have some flat land too, but not too much.
As for the house, the old folks died, younger generation that inherited it sees no worth or perspective in it, live somewhere in the city or abroad, may one day retire there, but will surely year it down and build a new house, why they are leaving it like this, well it may bring some cash if it is some gov.supported rural area, also start building from scratch in terms of all kinds of permits and utilities will be a lot more expensive than just "rebuilding" it, but in fact building a completely new structure on the grounds of the old one.
Gabe! Come to Varaždin, it’s a baroque little town, with a long history, 80 km from Zagreb. It used to be the capital of Croatia before Zagreb, I’m sure you would like it :)
Loma Loma You just struck a long-forgotten chord! “Komm mit nach Varazdin” - from 1924 operetta ‘Countess Maritza’ by Emmerich Kalman. Several versions here on utube.
adscri On the main square of Varaždin there’s a popular pastry shop and coffee bar called Grofica Marica (Countess Maritza), so in Varaždin it is not so “long-forgotten” 😜 but good job noticing it!
Loma Loma Until reading your comment in my ignorance I thought it was purely a place of fiction. I’ve now checked it out and want to visit one day.
adscri Everyday is an opportunity to learn something new :) Varaždin is my hometown so I can tell you it’s very real haha. Fun fact: Emmerich Kálmán lived for a while in Varaždin, in the building where today this coffee shop is, I’m sure this influeced him in a way to write this piece. Hope you’ll come to visit us one day! :)
Zagreb i Varaždin pod obavezno!
Can’t wait to visit ... Croatia 🇭🇷
If you would like to explore some more countryside I recommend you visiting the Zagorje region (Hrvatsko Zagorje) which is a few km north from Zagreb. Its full of hills, forest, fields and villages but also known to tourists for medival castles, swimming pools and great food.
Sounds like his perfect combination of activities. That was very kind of you to recommend to Gab 😃 may u be blessed 🙌
Thank You Gabriel- this is my Family's Homeland, Grandma and Grandpa's emigrated to the USA, back in 1915. I will return here, when all of these travel restrictions have ceased* Thomas Biskupic*
Thomas!? No,no,no,no,no buddy! No! If your last name is Biškupić then you can only be Tomislav, Tomica or Tomo! 😁
Just kidding! Cheers from Zagreb, Croatia!
Cheers to You Drago*
Thank you for visiting our country! Hope you like it😉 I'm from small village between Karlovac and Jastrebarsko.
Max u r so lucky that u stay there 💖✌️🙏🏻😃
Perfect music for video starting at 10.45 ...👍
Loving the Croatia series. Stay safe!
I loved how you found that hidden old town up on the hill. As you said "A hidden gem!"
I'm proud to say that I live there and it's a beautiful small family town with loads of lakes, trailes and forrest!
Old town was amazing...
I spent a month in Croatia last spring...if you are still in Zagreb, go check out the Mirogoj Cemetery. It is not like one would think when they think cemetery. It is beautiful, full of art, sculptures, and lots of famous people are buried there. Also, it is known for being all inclusive of all religions, etc. Worth exploring.
Gabe greetings from India, Croatia has always been close to my heart, loved the country side videos, pls share more such.👌🙏🍻
These videos really capture the essence of Europe. I drove to Zagreb from Milan in 1995. It was beautiful. The highway was deserted and the scenery at the tail of the Alps amazing. Now 20 years in NYC. I find hard to travel the same way in the northeast USA, it feels you can only go to designated destinations. There is private property and no parking signs everywhere. Hard to find a place to explore. Everything seems more "curated" and regulated. Traveling in Europe was more free and carefree. Maybe on the West Coast of the USA is different.
Try mid-west and west in USA. Northeast is a zoo sometimes.
I'm an American that moved to Croatia about 4 years ago from Los Angeles. I live in Stubicke Toplice about 30 minutes north of Zagreb. If you're interested reply and I can take you around Zagorje.
Hmmm, to me as Croat from Zagreb is kinda odd (in a good way) and cool to hear you moved all they way from LA, California to Stubičke as we call them in shortened version, lol. Respect dude :). My family once owned vacation house in Tuheljske Toplice that is not that far away from Stubičke toplice, that I frequented quite a lot as a kid with my parents. I highly recommend Tuheljske top. from some quality SPA time if you wish. The pools, services and accomodation are even much more better nowdays than in my youth days, check it out on some nice weekend.
Hey, neighbour. We've got a house in Donja Stubica. But we're only there for vacation. My husband is american.
One of the most beautiful and diversified country.
Thanks mate!
Diversified?
@@gagsterguides how to say it correctly? English is not my first language
@superbura9 superbura9 so if say a "diverse country", that means what i want to mean for Croatia? That Croatia has a lot of different areas, landscapes, climates etc.? Diversified is not an existing word? I am just asking.
@superbura9 superbura9 tkx
Looks like you took instant liking to Croatia. I never been there but sure looks like a nice country!
Thank you Gabriel! ❤🤗 beautiful Croatia! Stay safe!
Can't wait to visit Croatia ❤️❤️
That old abandoned property 5:50 would look great when restored !...tho there are so many of them! Government and town councils should encourage and support more their people in rebuilding their country sides...but always preserving the nature! Thanks Gab for another great vlog 😎
If you have time, go an hour north of Zagreb to Trakoscan Castle. Rare to see a period appropriate furnished castle and in such a spectacular setting.
Beautiful country! Having grown up in the SE area of Missouri, many of the farms remind me of driving down the country farm roads in southetn missouri and illinois. Except you dont get to mountains off in the distance
No war damage in that part of Croatia.
Places are abandoned; older folks died off, the younger moved to the cities or other countries for work. Some younger folks have remained, but they are not keen on working in the fields or don't have time since they probably have a full time job in Zagreb
Pretty well same problems as anywhere else in the World when it comes to farming. Old guys died, young ones don't want to the job.
@Apsco Radiales
I agree with you, and I also guess those towns are empty because of how Croatia and other countries in the region are losing their male population, especially the young generations... I remember former President of Croatia, Kolinda Grabar saying that, and how the government needs to create more jobs to stop that bleeding... Hopefully, the rebound after covid impacts solving those issues.
Take care!!!
@@xavdanda Best way to get read of Job problems is to create more cro ownd companys and dismentel old distroyd hoses and plase stores polls... That cen get people vorking
@@habsburgmapping6405 and they have to put more muny in places like Slavonija vukovar glina...
Thanks for showing these wonderful places!
Dobrodosao u Hrvatsku! 😁🇭🇷
Hvala.
That castle was an awesome discovery! That's the kind of stuff that makes traveling/exploring so much fun.
Be very careful in our traffic. This year has bean difficult for Zagreb, floods and strong earthquakes damaged the centar. The cathedral tower collapsed, other was removed for security reasons.
Wow
@@quanbrooklynkid7776 it's 2020
I visited that cathedral in 2018 and I think it is one of most beautiful big churches I have visited in Europe.
Mr. Gabriel would be wonderful if he could show (tourists adore) KOPAČKI RIT ❤️🐦, a wetland home to thousands of species. A bird's paradise. Shelter for hundreds of bird species. Natural triangle of Danube and Drava. The largest inland delta of the Danube. Among the largest European wetlands. The space never looks the same. Each new visit - a new insight into nature. A mystical place to return to a space soaked in life.
now is the worst time to go there.... hint: mosquitos
Haha my grandmother is from Jastrebarskog (translated hawk town- jastreb means hawk )
Can't believe you went there!:))
Always rent a car in Europe. I call it getting small. The countryside and small villages are so awesome.
And then Gabe joined the Hari Krishnas in Zagreb and was never seen or heard of again ..... Nice discovery of the hidden gem of a stari grad in the forest - excellent.
Looks so peaceful out there in the countryside. Would love to visit there 👍
Bro, thanks for promoting our country and my city Zagreb!
Croatia is very interesting. Thank you for your posts.
The knight you've seen was Sveti Juraj or Saint George, a Byzantine hero who slayed the dragon. The dragon demanded child sacrifice, so his heroic act symbolizes a victory over evil[doers].
I find it poignant that the church as well as homes are abandoned, while evil raises its ugly head again. We need again men like St. George...
We've been going to Croatia since 2007, and only now I know why St George!
I know St George, but didn't know his relationship with Croatia... now I understand why his sculpture outside the Old Gate in Zagreb's Old Upper City... He's also everywhere, including all coins in Bulgaria.
Thanks a lot!
@@xavdanda Thanks for taking the time to write a nice feedback.
WOW... whatta finding that stari grad!
Good idea not to take the main highway... we "discovered" inland Croatia four years ago, and we loved it... very different than the coast, but also very charming... the Slavonija (hopefully I wrote it right) is very nice... we went to a town (I have to dig in my stuff for its name, sorry) considered the best for "naive" paintings on glass, and another one very famous because of the storks... and no crowds!!!... and on top of all, you even saw the Hare Krishnas in the main square!... last time I remember seen them, we were in Wroclaw, Poland.
The traditional blue trams zigging and zagging all over Zagreb... Has the left tower of the Cathedral been reconstructed?... there was an earthquake at the beginning of this year that caused damages... part of the top of that tower fell, and the one on the right had scaffolds for years to clean it...
ENJOY YOR JOURNEY!
@superbura9 superbura9
Thanks a lot!!!
Our last time in that area was in 2016... Do you say BOTH spires in the Cathedral are down? The news I saw right after the earthquake mentioned only the top of the left one fell down... the one on the right was the one with the scaffolds.
Were there more damages in the city?
We stayed in a place about two small blocks from the Cathedral, on Vlaska Ul.
It looked like both the spires were now up. It had two tall spires the same height. But there was also one sitting on the ground and there was still some scaffolding. Anyway you'll see it in an upcoming video, I started filming at the cathedral.
These are substitute temporary crosses
@superbura9 superbura9
Thanks for your info. I remember watching the news right after the quake. Aftershocks are unfortunately part of the whole thing, and are sometimes even worse than the first one... too bad, but I'm glad the authorities handled it well... my solidarity and prayers are with that beautiful city and region, hopefully when this corona thing is over, we can go back and enjoy its hospitality again, but most of all, I hope people recover from their losses.
@@lani7755 Thanks a million... yes, it is that couple of storks! how could I forget Malena! somehow I thought there were more storks, but I found my notes and read them again and you are absolutely right.
During the months of May-June of 2013 and 2014, I also heard a lot about that part of Croatia and Bosnia, including Serbia due to heavy flooding in the region, and how some landmines were unearthed by the floodwaters.
Hopefully I can visit again. We normally go from Poland to the Dalmatian Coast by highway in May where we stay about a month or month and a half, but I'll do my best to stay longer inland next time.
Thanks again.
Beautiful place to explore, enjoy your exploring Gabriel
22:29 minutes is enough for me, Croatia is a charming and exotic country.. And you're amazing man!👍🙋
Wow! Burda magazine in the kiosk, I haven't seen one of those in many years. Those old houses full of mysteries. Love the music! Thank you so much for sharing.
Gabe, you're an adventurist traveler always discovering new places.
Stay safe.
wooah! such a gem, only u and ur walking could find such wonderful places. love the real culture and history! thank you!!
Hey, Gabriel. It’s nice that you have visited Jastrebarsko. I watch your videos now for about 3 years and i couldn’t even think about that you would come to my town. You could have seen Erdody castle and really nice hills around our town like Plešivica and taste great wines. I’m here if you have any questions about travelling this land. It’s nice to come around this town if you are planning to explore the true nature. I’m here to help!
Greetings!
Cool, thanks for watching. Too bad I missed the castle. It was a quick visit. Have a good one.
Gabriel Traveler You really need to buy new shoes! You entered part when you will need to climb alot. As you started this trip, I didn’t think you will see so much and as you have not so many choices atm where to go next I would suggest that you stay in Croatia and fully expolre it. After Zagreb you could go to Hrvatsko zagorje (Krapina, Kumrovec, Trakošćan) then go north to Varaždin, so little to east-south to Koprivnica, Križevci ( fist mention of that city in 1200ths), then go to Moslavina, and then to Slavonija and all cities there. Every single town got its history, and every single town is old town that is hundreds of years old.
The coolest thing you've found in my opinion. I remember watching "Armour of God" back in the day
from Zagreb to Krapina
the road is about 65 km.who is interested in prehistory should visit the city - Krapina, there is one of the largest sites of Neanderthals.
Thank you Gabriel 🙋🏼♀️
it’s such a privilege to wake up to your beautiful video ,
Watching you discover old town
is a spectacular visual,
which to me looked like a killer mid evil “kingdom” ... also a nice surprise to see Hare Krishna devotees dancing & singing in the street spreading love & joy 🕉 💃 🇭🇷 🕍 🚜 🐺
Grateful ❣️
🕉️🕉️ love from India 🇮🇳
Visit Slavonija. Đakovo, Vinkovci, Vukovar.
Osijek, the capital city of Slavonia!
I’m American, I once asked my Croatian friend who came to live in US how is life in slavonia. He is from an small village named Cerna. He told me it is not that bad. Go and watch on google maps, he thought that was normal (he never traveled abroad)
@@blackowl_1235 I'm close to cerna😀
@@antunmarinfilipovic Very cool👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
That old town! Love those serendipitous moments when you find such gems!
Thank you for visiting and filming my hometown Samobor :D cheers!
It's a shame people left they're cities, like ne in Timișoara România, to look for the dream somewhere else. Beautiful Croatia, beautiful Serbia, beautiful România, the Balkans are great, from Greece to Hungary. Go explore. I went to Greece and Romania a few years back and I'm crying right now. Went to Croatia long time ago, it was gold compared to Romania, 1991.
I will go back and visit from Vancouver, now
Thank you for visiting old town of Samobor and show us that. I am from Croatia, but never been there.
Gabriel, we started following your adventures when you traveled by your thumb, a bike and camped it a tent. It is wonderful to see you and your channel expand. We have enjoyed seeing the world through your camera lens, stay safe, thank you.
Awesome, thanks for following.
Gabriel I could just imagine you grinning ear to ear watching the Hare krisnas 😊 this was one of your best yet of Croatia. All the best from 🇨🇦
Visit Sljeme. Sljeme is the top of Medvednica, which you can reach on foot by one of the many trails that lead to the top, but also by bus from Mihaljevac.From the top there is a view of the city which is interesting to experience day and night.
I think you have some of our genes, you seem so natural in Croatia.
You seem to be in very good spirits. A very upbeat episode. Keep it up and good luck!
Wonderful video. Thanks for sharing. I have never been to Zagreb but I believe it is lovely! Enjoy
Lol, looks like the Hare Krishnas. I'm from Hawaii and there are lots of them in Pahoa, Hawaii
Fantastic.. View.... Grazie mille... Gabriel... 🍀
Gabriel, as you can probably tell from peoples' comments, mine included, you need to go here, there and everywhere in Croatia, hehe.
It's a tiny little country, relatively speaking, but it's full of diversity, geographical and historical.
To see the place, one really needs to spend a few months there.
If you have nothing better to do, maybe you should. rent a place somewhere for a few months (not in Zagreb though - it's too expensive), get a cheap car rental (or a bus), and just travel around. There really is sooooo much to the place. it's like going to Greece or Italy for a week; it's unfair to the country since there is so much more.
Cheers, and stay safe.
keep traveling Gabriel
wonderful
Thank you for this video, beautiful country, what a pleasure.
Beautiful greenaries everywhere, worth to visit!!
The charm of abandoned houses!
The old town was beautiful left in it's overgrown and ruined state.
*The quest for the real Croatia! Good luck on your exloration. Thanks for yet another great video :)*
You missed out on a beautiful city of Ozalj where you have an medival fort near the river.. Its like 15km from Jastrebarsko in the direction of Karlovac.. shame you missed it..
Trippin with Gabriel priceless
Dobar Dan!
There last year. Loved the driving. Beautiful country. Did you stop at any of the thousand local cheese and honey stands?
Omg I did not expect Jackie Chan's stunt to be there in Croatia 😂
I remember he got a dent in his head
Amazing video.. Nice wooden looking village houses also. Good to get a view out of the tourist zone.
Good stuff Gabriel. Thank you.
Seeing the Hare Krishnas took me back a few decades. Cheers.
Love Croatia, hope to return one day when the world is open again. 😀
Gorgeous video..you are a true pro...thank you..love abandoned
I aspire to travel the world and share the adventures here on TH-cam one day. You're an inspiration, Gabe.
Lol @ the tiny little path. Love it. What beautiful trees.
Oh wow, it's like you've entered another country since you left the coast..cool!
Then you came to the capital and that was its own totally awesome, kinda hippie thing, lol! So vibrant.
Is Hare Krishna big deal in Zagreb??
At any rate, this was def one of my favorite videos in this series!!
No they are not big deal, but they are often on the main square
Is not big deal
@superbura9 superbura9 Cool! In Denmark it's similar with dialects, but nature and architecture doesn't differ that much from place to place. We don't have woods anymore either due to agriculture.
Wonderful place. Very beautiful video. Nice creation. Great work friends.
Love your videos; keep it up! Man just be careful driving in Europe. That was some rough driving passing that second slow tractor you passed at the beginning of the video. You went straight in the left turn lane, passed him at the crosswalk, and drove over zebra stripes. Cops are very sensitive to these things in Europe.
As somebody already mentioned in comments, You should go to Vukovar, first you pass thru beautiful town Vinkovci, then to Vukovar. Then You can there see the other side of dark human nature and remnants of Croatian war of Indenpendence. Vukovar watertower, memorial centre of Homeland war with tanks, war equipment ect., Vukovar hospital memorial, memorial cemetery of victims of Homeland war, and Ovčara site, where 250 wounded Croat people who were taken from hospital were executed. Then to Osijek, it's ZOO, Fortress Tvrđa, White bridge, and beautiful nature park "Kopački rit". Greetings and have fun :)
He should really go to Hercegovina.
Groovy Gabriel crusin' in the Croatian countyside.
Beautiful
Do you speak English? -just a little. -speaks better than most americans. :D
Lots of little Catholic shrines in Croatia, just like in Austria if you drive though its countryside.
That particular picture near the Cross is a painting of a Croatian Blessed Alojoze Stepinac (on the way of becoming a Saint) who was persecuted by Yugoslav communists.
Most Croatians are a religious lot, Catholic predominantly.
Yikes. You are really saying that name? I saw the statue in the video and almost got sick. May he burn in hell.
Jackie Chan shot his movie "Armour of God" in 1986 in Croatia (then Yugoslavia) and as he does his own stunts he got injured during filming of starting scene, Jackie had to jump between wall and a tree branch. During one of the takes of that scene branch broke and he fell from height of 5 meters and hit his head on rock on the ground. His skull cracked from the blow and a bone fragment got stuck in his brain.Emergency operation lasted almost 8 hours. Obviously he recovered (it took him 7 months) but has hole in his skull that is plugged with plastic plug and damaged hearing.
EDIT - i wrote this before i saw Gabriel wrote the same thing in the video
Yep, you got it. Crazy story. But at least it didn't seem to slow him down too much.
@@GabrielTravelerVideos yeah, he broke plenty more bones in his body from then til now :D
The GOAT of stuntmen
@@armwrestlingfan6804 yeah, i remember in one movie he had to jump on a big moving hovercraft and broke his ankle, after they put a cast on the ankle he had a sock made that had print of his sneaker on it , that he was wearing in that shot, and he did the scene while wearing the cast
No CGI back then..if scene is jump from 5m you jump from 5m :D
Gabriel traveler welcome to Zagreb 🇭🇷♥️ welcome to Croatia 🇭🇷♥️
Thanks.
Gabriel Traveler your welcome
Thanks for the tour of the old town in Croatia from Bangkok, Thailand. I really like the way to show us in your video. No script.
thanks for this lovely amazing video!! Have a safe journey!
You have learned some croatian Gabriel, that is good!
13:00 Hey, there it is again, the official travel song of Gabriel Traveler.
Thanks for showing me another part of my country! You're an admirable traveler in every aspect, also a video maker. As far as the scenery is concerned, there's no such thing as a "real" Croatia, it being most diverse, though there's much truth in these words when you're showing us abandoned houses as a great number of the younger generations are abandoning the country.
So cool! These are my favorite kind of travel videos, the ones that show random, off the beaten path places. I try to do the same in Mexico. Thanks for the video!
Lovely! Try 'samoborska kremsnita' cake if you haven't already! ;)
Looks tasty! I'll think I'll make me some. Slurrrp!
Wow! Enjoyed your trip !
Good off the tourist trail exploring! Thanks for the film 👍
That was really cool, thanks Gabe.
"...seems like a good life to me..."
It can be. Much better than living in a big city with big city issues. But you do need some money or a good job or both.
Villages in Croatia are often at the bottom of the cookie jar when it comes to health care, education, road construction, and other infrastructure. Most money ends up in Zagreb.
Croatia is actually two countries; Zagreb being one, then the rest.
You want to buy a piece of furniture in Zagreb - that's were all the major stores are anyways. Delivery won't cost you a single Kuna in Zagreb, but if you want to deliver that to a village outside of Zagreb, well now we're talking about money, charged by a kilometer.
You want to have that check up at a urologist?
Well, you have to go to Zagreb, and get a private doctor or you will wait for months to see one in Karlovac or some place like that.
Two countries; Zagreb, then the rest.
That has ALWAYS been one of the problems with Croatia; dating back to Austro-Hungarian days, and it's still there today. Even more so to some extent.