Since I've been watching cycling, the Dutch have had the best riders but have underachieved. Instead of increasing their chances through a cohesive strategy, they have ridden against each other and made someone else win. How ridiculous was to see Markus pulling in the front group and Bredewold in the second? First lesson of cycling tactics: "don't chase your teammates"!
It's a classic problem of too much talent. Happens to Canada in ice hockey or America in basketball - a bunch of individual talents will often underperform relative to a cohesive group of lesser talents.
@@michaelcallaghan4336 In the rare case where a team like that does perform, it is amazing. Imagine if the Dutch could be as good a team as the Jordan-Pippen Chicago Bulls from 95/96.
Reminds me a bit of the Dutch national football teams who would be brimming with talent but couldn't hack being together as a team without falling out and failing to win international tournaments as a result.
what a bull shit ...they were european champion and were in the final of the world campionship against the usa ...and they trow the team of england out for the qualification of the olympics ,so were do you talking about?
All seem to be missing the obvious. Zero Dutch cycling leadership. Inability to build national team loyalty or enforce a team concept. Dygert put it exactly right. Their greatest strengths (fast riders) is also their greatest weakness (big egos). “I think everyone on that team wants to win, and sometimes that means everybody loses.” Well, unless you have strong coaching and team directorship who can and will both build team cohesion (around winning for your nation!) AND will enforce it. But now we’ve seen the SAME leadership despite multiple embarrassing incidents like this, year after year. The Dutch cycling organization must be noted for their ability to produce an absolutely dominant women’s cycling machine; but called out for their inability to get them to work together. (I understand this happens with Dutch football/soccer, too, but not something I watch…)
The Dutch raced against each other. No teamwork. They would have been the strongest team if they were a team. They all wanted to win, and as a result, none of them won.
There is an article in the Dutch newspaper today with the title: " Blinded by selfishness, the best Dutch cyclist has made herself impossible with her teammates" . This is an excellent description of what Demi has done to herself. First her TdF fail, and now this. I wonder if there is any team that is willing to have her onboard next year. I also understand now, why her SD Worx teammates did not wait for her in the TdF. Demi is toxic. Luckily we have Puck, who was amazing on her first road world championship. She is the future of Dutch women cycling.
It's funny: in the comment on the TdF, most comments criticized Demi's teammates for not supporting her; now suddenly all comments are against Demi. (I have no beef in this, I'm just noticing the contrast). There still hasn't been an official announcement from either Demi or the team about her contract for the following year(s), which is quite strange. It almost feels like they still haven't finalized the deal.
The cold and wet was must of been affecting a lot of the riders thought processes . Judging by the interviews at the finish. Sometimes you just stop caring and want to finish the thing and what ever happens happens.
if you compare mental strength Vollering and Van Vleuten... Vollering always has been selfish - can you remember 2021 UCI WC? Vollering and Van Vleuten should work for Vos - only Van Vleuten did... Vollering let her down as usual...
Excuses, For Demi Vollering, she was not thinking about anyone, but herself , and again are they professional bike racers, why can’t they race without radios.
One would think the World Championships format is deliberately mischievous. You race as a "Nation", but only the actual individual winner is "The Champion". That's a crazy contradiction right there, and when compounded with no race radios etc., it makes for potentially escalating confusion and drama - possibly what the organisers and TV coverage want! The Dutch are actually cursed in this sort of set-up - having too many potential winners. Either you pick one person in your team for whom you are putting in an all out team effort with a good plan from the start, or its an 'everyone for themselves' which is what happened at the end. One can criticise Vollering's actions, but she is a great rider herself - does she really want to ride slowly in the following group, hoping that Vos in the upfront bunch will win the sprint and nobody else will chase? Does she know how good Vos is actually feeling up there? Or does she try and give herself a chance as well, especially as she feels strong? I'd be interested to see what/if there was an original plan, because keeping all options open will of course create uncoordinated actions from individual competitors. Vollering's main failure was in attacking on the front and effectively pacing whilst not actually being able to drop the other competitors (except her own teamates) - perhaps the course just wasn't hilly enough for her to be at her most effective.
Donkey Vollering had the wisdom to give up a 3-rider (in a break of 7) advantage, and then lead out Belgium for the win. Her churning up the climb dropping nobody, but her teammates, was the worst example of selfish riding I've seen in a while. So glad she won nothing.
Who is that presenter? Has she ever seen a bikerace before? Demis tactics gave her or her team zero chance of winning while having the strongest rider AND the fastest sprinter. That is the issue here.
To her credit, Vollering stuck to the original Dutch team plan, she was going to attack on the last climb. However, with no race radios many modern racers don't know how to adjust tactics without a DS shouting in their ear. She was desperate to win, but she should have kept her cool and protected Vos and Markus up the road. Live and learn. We'll see how she does away from SDWorx in 2025.
@@daleforbes3322 that's on the DS. Any competent team DS should make sure their riders are well-briefed on what tactics they will use depending on how the race unfolds.
@@c-record I agree that it's the responsibility of the DS to prepare the team for the race. However, riders must also adjust to the situation on the road and not mechanically follow any plan that's unlikely to succeed. In this case, the Dutch had Markus in a break with Ghekiere. Should this break have gone to the line, Markus would have a 50% chance of winning. Then they had Markus and Vos in a 4 person break. Again a 50% chance of winning. Then they had a leading group of 8 with Vos the fastest sprinter amongst them. Vollering then decides to attack on the climb dropping Vos, the Dutch's best chance of victory. Then she goes into the final with Kopecky where she will never win. How pathetically stupid is that and that can't be blamed on the DS!
@@daleforbes3322 it seems stupid to us but again, in the race ... what did Vos say to Vollering when they came back? We don't know. Vollering might of thought it was up to her if Vos said she was running out of gas, and so she needed to try to get rid of Kopecky but of course it didn't work out that way. Again, being desperate and not keeping a cool head (willing to lose to win) was her undoing.
@@c-record I'm glad you agree it was stupid! It's highly unlikely that Vos would have said she was finished. She would not have put in the effort to be there at that stage of the race if she didn't think she could win it. In any event, even if Vos had said she couldn't go on, Vollering should have encouraged her and done everything in her power to get Vos to the line. A good example of this was when Caruso attacked Bernal in the Giro and Bernal was on the point of cracking and giving up and Dani Martinez was there to help and encourage Bernal to keep going and not lose too much time and eventually that allowed Bernal to win the Giro.
With all respect Marianne Vos was not good enough, she would have been dropped anyway. The Dutch on this course only had one to be able to win. All others (also Vos) should have worked to keep a very high pace to make it a hard race. Markus and Vos, escaping before the deciding uphill so Demi could not use the uphill was plain stupid!
This is the accurate assesment. Vos said she was cooked in the back part of the race. She didn't have a winning sprint in her. The tactical errors are multiple but it's not all on Vollering.
Demi was chasing her own teammates. Dutch team was with two riders in a front group of 4. Demi should have waited at the wheels of other riders…she was acting indeed stupid
The Dutch riders, Markus and Vos, have been overly kind to Vollering. The fact that Vos was still in the lead group a few kms from the end shows that she had enough left in the tank to win a sprint to the line.
Kopecky was dropped and dead in the water at some point. She even told Ghekiere to go on and ride for herself, because she was done. Yet she came back, held her cool and won by using smart tactics.
@@daleforbes3322 Vos was done, over and out. When the group came back, she was the first to be dropped, while Roseman stayed with the best until the end.
The whole setup for the team was to try to make Demi win. Even Markus and Vos said so afterwards. To do so they tried to make the race hard on all levels but in the end she just wasn’t able to make the difference. I think the blame shifts too much towards Demi as an individual. She rode the way they had agreed upon as far as we know now. She gave it her all and just didn’t succeed.
man, listen to them once again - if you are 16 km to go, you are not going to drop Vos... Vollering once again showed her immature personality and huuuge selfishness...
She was neither the best on that day nor on that course. Vos followed the “orders” but otherwise she, that is, Vos, had the best chance of becoming world champion. And Vollering, as usual, had to cry again.
@@Cornelis-Dz Don't be ridiculous. Vollering made plenty of mistakes, but anyone who knows a litte bit about cycling and is objective saw that Vollering was easily the strongest in the race. Even Kopecky said so after the finish.
@@nahadoth2087 You are apparently a fan of Vollering and I respect your opinion. If my opinion makes me look ridiculous then so be it. In my eyes Demi is a spoiled selfish child who has to win at all costs even if she is not always the best. Can't deny that she is a top athlete but often just not the best.
@@Cornelis-Dz I'm a Kopecky fan actually. So, I'm pretty stoked with how this race ended up going. You're the one here who is unreasonably biased, not me. Whether Demi is selfish or not is irrelevant. She was the strongest rider in race this day, just like she was the strongest in the Tour de Femme. Both she lost because of shitty tactics, both by her and her team. Claiming otherwise you're either intentionally lying or you don't know what you're talking about. Either way you're wrong. And I don't respect it.
@@nahadoth2087 Hoe u erover denkt vind ik ok. Ik hoop dat dat wel ok is. Zo niet dan weet ik niet wat verder te zeggen. Ik vind het ok dat u een andere mening hebt. Prettige dag verder.
She doesn't have to but this is the result if she didn't. Demi almost certainly can't win a sprint finish so it was between helping Marianne or they all lose.
@@ru40342 she thought that the others were not strong enough to follow her ,but she had to stop after she saw that there were three others folllwwing here and that marianne vos wasn't there anymore ...she did all the work and got the others back and wasn't able to escape by herself ..so stupid tactics
Why must Demi ride for Vos? This is the world championship. As a rider if you can win it then you must go for it and it is up to everyone else to beat you. Cycling is a team sport except Olympics and World Championship then it is an individual sport.
u have absolutely no idea what u are talking about. u clearly haven't watched the race. FYI, vos and markus were in the break of 4. just to be clear, that is 2 dutch riders out of 4 riders; where vos being the strongest/fastest rider by a country mile. now this is looking pretty good for both the netherlands and vollering. cos vollering can just sit back and let her opponents spend their energy to bring back vos. does that make sense to u? what does vollering do, would you like to know? she used up her remaining teammates to bring back her own teammates (her teammates who are working to make a stronger case for her). and thus completely isolating herself and making her vulnerable for attacks. (Warning, caps lock on) DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW STUPID THAT IS NOW????? SHE COULD'VE FORCED HER OPPONENTS TO DO ALL THE HARD WORK, WHICH WOULD'VE DRASTICALLY IMPROVEd HER CHANCES OF WINNING THE RACE (((NOT JUST HER TEAMMATES)))). OR OR OR, SHE COULD'VE JUST NOT DONE NOTHING. HER DOING NOTHING WOULD'VE BEEN 100 TIMES BETTER THAN WHAT SHE DID. WHICH IS SHOOT HERSELF IN THE FOOT!!! that wasn't the end though. no no, not on ur nelly. after that, vollering attacks on the final climb (or the penultimate) and "only" dropping vos. WHEN VOLLERING COULD'VE PAIRED UP WITH VOS AND ROLLED ATTACKS!!!! P.S. it wasn't the team's lack of cohesiveness (the excuse she made). IT WAS A MIXTURE OF HER SELFISHNESS AND STUPIDITY THAT COST NOT ONLY HER CHANCES OF WINNING, BUT ALSO BRINGING EMBARASSMENT TO HER NATION.
@sudsehun My comments had nothing to do with the race. Go Back and read my comments again and if you are unable to understand the sub text of the comments I can translate them into Afrikaans, Flemish Dutch, Russian or German. DOOS.
@@robertbonnette1253 then do so. enlighten me with ur nuanced racing philosophy that is beyond my level of understanding. i'm all ears. u try to instil ur potato couch ideology as racecraft by uttering nonsense like, "cycling is a team sport except in the olympics and worlds". and expect anyone to take u seriously? it's like a sad little inside joke that only u're aware of. do realise that, actual ppl, living above ur basement have never gotten around to reading ur 'what is cycling' manifesto. see, were not subscribed to ur 'simplemindedsam' youtube channel.
cycling road racing is ALWAYS a team sport - only it are different teams at some events. And if riders forget or ignore that they will not win - simple as that! You cannot dispute that, and this years results show that as clear as possible: despite having the strongest team (by far!!!) the Dutch won neither the Olympics nor the WC, and Vollering, though be the best rider by a huge margin, didn’t win the Tour de France - because of her team abandoning her. Not a team sport? Than try to win without support… good luck!
@fiddleronthebike I agree with your view. What I am saying is that why must one person give up their dream of being a world champion. If you have the capability to win then you must go for it. A bit of a selfish view but that's why we race. Normal racing is different and the team helps the leader.
Side note"; What the hell are these announcers wearing? It's like they are going out to two different affairs. Is there no coordinated stylist on set at Eurosport? The man and woman in center are going to an afternoon casual lunch. The two woman on the ends are going to a trashy house party on a Saturday night, in which neither of could figure out what to wear. Help them! They are hosting a world class sporting event live for the world! Get co ordinated! this only happens once a year it's a big deal supposedly. Where is the art director? They all clash badly with the set. They look so unprofessional and out of place it's very hard to believe they know what they are talking about is the outcome. And that's not what you want from your supposed experts.
Orla always dresses like she going clubbing in the 90s and the rest wear t-shirts or off the shelf clothes. Orla is the discrepancy here., she always over dresses for a cycling show.
Who cares about how anyone dresses? She is probably having fun while "dressing unconventionally" for a cycling show @@Liofa73 how are cycling commentators supposed to dress anyway? Lycra? 😂 Still she is making us talk about her so the strategy works.
The pundits are forgetting that Markus and Vos attacked Vollering earlier before the last big climb. The last long climb was the obvious place for Demi to attack, and what she needed was for her team to get her to the bottom of the climb at the front of the pack, with no break up the road. Demi could've lit the afterburners and dropped everybody, and then ridden solo to the finish. But no, Markus and then Vos attacked at the point where the Dutch team should have been on the front of the peloton, setting a hard tempo leading into the main climb. Markus and Vos went, Demi let them go. It was Longo Borghini who chased them down with Demi on her wheel. Demi, then did the correct thing in going over the top of Longo Borghini when contact was made with the Vos group, seeing as Kopecky and Kasia had been dropped, and Longo Borghini may have needed to recover after closing the gap. It is then quite possible that on the final ramp, the one on which Demi dropped Vos, that Longo Borghini would have attacked and dropped Vos anyway, as she could not afford to take Vos to the line. Demi knew this and was well aware that the big threat of Kopecky, was also closing the gap. So, Demi anticipated the Longo Borghini attack and went first. If the other riders who went with Vollering had cooperated, then Kopecky and Dygart would never have made it back on. The Dutch tactics from the get-go were hair-brained, and I can understand why Vollering gets so animated and frustrated on the road - she's the strongest stage race rider and strongest Ardennes - style one day race rider, yet her trade team and her national team are always riding against her. If the Dutch team had ridden purely for Demi, Demi would've won. If they'd ridden solely for Vos, Vos would've been dropped on the last lap. I've seen a lot of critism against Vollering, but the reality is, the Dutch lost the race when Markus, and then Vos, attacked Demi before the long climb on the final lap. It was an idiotic move.
1. AFAIK (but that's not from TV footage as the TV director / camera men on the motorcycle did a poor job), Vollering initiated the last-lap last-climb attack. Why? I'll tell you: because she couldn't accept Vos winning the WC. 2. She had 2 out of 4 on the road. Before she initiated that attack, Bredewold (her team mate) chased on the flat to the finish to keep the gap small (enough) to chase them back. Why? I'll tell you: because she couldn't accept Vos winning the WC. 3. The final ramp, if Longo Borghini, as you say and I quote "quite possible ... would have attacked", why did Vollering take that initiative. Why? --> I'll tell you: because she couldn't accept Vos winning the WC. 4. As you say: "If the other riders who went with Vollering had cooperated, then Kopecky and Dygart would never have made it back on." So why drop your team mates that could have done the pacing? --> I'll tell you: because she would rather be in a situation she cannot control / handle, as the only member of team Holland, than to be in a situation where her team mates either control but also have a chance to win, and Vollering couldn't accept Vos / Markus winning the WC. 5. Your quote: "If the Dutch team had ridden purely for Demi, Demi would've won." --> Did you handily forget Elisa Longo Borghini, never dropped by Vollering's attacks, almost dropping Vollering and winning the sprint of Vollering easily? 6. " If they'd ridden solely for Vos, Vos would've been dropped on the last lap. --> Vos was in an excellent position, until Vollering decided she would F^&* her up by having Bredewold pull, herself attack on Witikon and using the last ramp on the plateau to drop her so she was for sure the first Dutch but never in a good place to win the race. 7. "I've seen a lot of critism against Vollering, but the reality is, the Dutch lost the race when Markus, and then Vos, attacked Demi before the long climb on the final lap. It was an idiotic move." --> it was a race-winning move if the Dutch didn't chase it! That's the whole point but you clearly didn't watch the race well.
@l.d.t.6327 1. Longo Borghini attacked and closed the minute gap to the front four. Demi followed. 2. Yes, Bredewold was on the front prior to Longo Borghini closing the gap, but while Bredewold was on the front, the gap to the front four was extending. So all Misha was doing was pacing, she did nothing to close the gap and instead let the gap go out. But why did Markus attack where she did? The ideal place for Demi to attack was at the base of the main climb. It was a pointless move by Markus, as Longo Borghini proved. If Markus, Bredwold et al, had instead set a hard pace on the front to stop attacks prior to the main climb, then Vollering could have launched her attack at the base and had time to ride everybody off her wheel. 3. Why shouldn't Vollering take the initiative. It was the obvious spot for Longo Borghini to attack, so it was right for Vollering to attempt to beat her to the punch. The fact that both Vos and Markus were dropped, proves that Vos was never going to win as long as Longo Borghini was still there. 4. No, because had Longo Borghini attacked on the last ramp - the only place remaining to ensure she didn't take Vos to the line, then neither Markus or Vos would have been there to help Vollering. 5. No, I didn't forget Longo Borghini. Longo Borghini has shown time and time again, that over shorter efforts, she is more than capable of hanging with Vollering. However, when the climb is longer, Demi consistently rides Longo Borghini and everybody else of her wheel. If the Dutch team had set Demi up to attack at the base of the main climb, then it is quite probable that everybody would've been dropped by the top. Even if Longo Borghini was able to stay with Vollering, they would've been clear of everybody else, and being just the two of them, would've worked together to the line (Longo Borghini couldn't sandbag as Vos, Kopecky et al would have caught up and outsprinted at the line). Longo Borghini beat Demi in the sprint on Saturday because Vollering did far more work over the last 10km of the course, whilst Longo Borghini was saving energy. If it had just been a straight up sprint between the two, after both cooperating over the final kms, then Demi would likely have won. 6. I refer you to point 3. 7. Again, the Dutch didn't chase. While Bredewold was on the front, the gap was going out. Once it went over a minute, Longo Borghini attacked and closed the gap. What is interesting is that in the majority of your points, you keep mentioning that the reason why blah blah, was because Vollering couldn't except Vos or anybody else in her team winning. The simple fact is that the course was ideal for Vollering and only an outside chance for a sprinter like Vos. However, just like with SD Worx all season, Vollering had to go through the race with her own teammates attacking her, because they couldn't accept Vollering winning. They'd rather lose the race, the Tour, the World Championships than see Vollering win. Now you say that Vollering can't accept anyone else winning, but in all the races this year that favoured Wiebes or Kopecky, Demi did her work for her leader without any sandbagging. So why is that every race in which she is her team's best rider for that race, if not the favourite in peloton overall, does Vollering have to herd cats? I don't know. Maybe Demi is a terrible person and her teammates hate her, but it definitely can't be because of how she rides, unless it's just plain jealousy.
@@John_Wall if the course was ideal for vollering, she would have dropped them all. Fact is she couldn’t even drop Kopecky, and the moment Kopecky was back before the descend, she shouldn’t have done one meter at the front and look back (Vos wasn’t far back). But she didn’t. She stubbornly believed, until the last 200 meters when she started her sprint at the front like a first year junior, she was miraculously going to win, so she could give an interview and blame everyone but herself that she lost.
@l.d.t.6327 Come on buddy, really?? Even the strongest rider in the history of the sport wouldn't be able to win a race single handedly....go off the front at km 0 and ride solo right to the end. Even if the course was ideal for Demi, she still would have to rely on her team to control the race, and set her up for her attack at the optimal point of the race. I've already described when and where that should and could have been, had Markus and then Vos not attacked Demi. Kopecky was dropped after Longo Borghini chased down Vos et al, but if the Dutch team had set Demi up to launch her attack further down the main climb to where Longo Borghini attacked, and with no break a minute up the road, then the gap back to Kopecky and the rest would have been much greater. Demi would have had no hangers on, hiding on her wheel making her do all the work. As I've already said, the only rider of the day who was able to keep up with Vollering over the reduced length of the climb (due to the Dutch not setting Vollering up to launch way further down the climb for maximum damage to her rivals) was Longo Borghini, and it would have been in her interest to work with Vollering to the line, rather than let better sprinters back into the game. At the point that Markus attacked, the Dutch were in complete control and Vollering was looking strong. There was no need to go to plan C (Markus), and then B (Vos), when plan A (Vollering) was still very much on. As I said before, no wonder Vollering gets so visibly animated and frustrated on the road - she doesn't just have to worry about her rivals from other teams attacking her, she also has to contend with her teammates attacking her. It is absolutely ridiculous. Look at the amount of stick Marc Soler has received over the last few seasons every time he goes rogue and attacks his team leader. Demi doesn't have just one rogue teammate, she has several and every race.
@@John_Wall " if the Dutch team had set Demi up to launch her attack further down the main climb to where Longo Borghini attacked, and with no break a minute up the road, then the gap back to Kopecky and the rest would have been much greater" How do you know? We've seen, in all races, that no one was able to drop all others in the last lap. But in the Women's race Vollering magically would have ridden all others off her wheel because you think / assume things that aren't there and also aren't likely by what we saw in the race? All I know is Demi couldn't get rid of other riders on the climb: Longo Borghini attacked before they got to the front, Vollering counter-attacked but she simply couldn't get rid of 3-4 other riders. If she was this strong, she could have counter-attacked Longo Borghini and dropped her or at least the others. But she didn't / couldn't (even drop Lippert / Kopecky / Gannon or Vos while overtaking the front group and powering hard). And once they connected with the front of the race, instead of racing tactically, she decided to use her blunt force, resulting in only Dutch riders getting dropped. Vos was only 100 meters behind the front 4 when Vollering kept powering, on the flat! At that moment she should have known she wasn't beating Lippert, Longo Borghini and Kopecky in a sprint, but she still pulled that front group!
Sadly, cycling is getting like football coverage. Too much (boring?) talking before and after a race. Too many saying who should do what and when and then who did what and when. We don't need any of it - just the actual race will do fine thanks.
@@nahadoth2087 I do and I didn't realise that the new socialist ethics of not being allowed an opposite opinion had actually spread to cycling. It's a strange world.
@@mickraynor7957 Lol. Of course you're that kind of person. You say a shitty thing in a public forum but then as soon as someone challenges you on it, you go crying about oppression like the cowardly little snowflake you are.
![⭐️( ลอยกระทง 2024 ) Ver. แดนซ์ Remix BY [ ดีเจกิต รีมิกซ์ ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rMWOLhgXUHc/mqdefault.jpg)
Adam is right
thanks
Lets talk about Puck she is the best. Hope she Fem and Shirin are all in top form for a great CX season.
She could win the World Championship gravel next week as well. That would be 3 world titles in 3 different disciplines at the same time.
@@nahadoth2087 Is Fem riding ? Some race if she is.
@@nahadoth2087 is Fem riding ? That would be a great race.
@@ruskinyruskiny1611 Yes. Also, Lotte Kopecky, Sanne Cant, Lucinda Brand, Marianne Vos, and lot of others.
@@nahadoth2087 Great stuff i will be watching.
Since I've been watching cycling, the Dutch have had the best riders but have underachieved.
Instead of increasing their chances through a cohesive strategy, they have ridden against each other and made someone else win.
How ridiculous was to see Markus pulling in the front group and Bredewold in the second?
First lesson of cycling tactics: "don't chase your teammates"!
It's a classic problem of too much talent. Happens to Canada in ice hockey or America in basketball - a bunch of individual talents will often underperform relative to a cohesive group of lesser talents.
@@michaelcallaghan4336 In the rare case where a team like that does perform, it is amazing. Imagine if the Dutch could be as good a team as the Jordan-Pippen Chicago Bulls from 95/96.
Why do they ride in country teams if they don't work as a team?
It was the World Championships, in which everyone represents their country. There is no option to enter as a trade team.
Reminds me a bit of the Dutch national football teams who would be brimming with talent but couldn't hack being together as a team without falling out and failing to win international tournaments as a result.
what a bull shit ...they were european champion and were in the final of the world campionship against the usa ...and they trow the team of england out for the qualification of the olympics ,so were do you talking about?
All seem to be missing the obvious. Zero Dutch cycling leadership. Inability to build national team loyalty or enforce a team concept. Dygert put it exactly right. Their greatest strengths (fast riders) is also their greatest weakness (big egos). “I think everyone on that team wants to win, and sometimes that means everybody loses.” Well, unless you have strong coaching and team directorship who can and will both build team cohesion (around winning for your nation!) AND will enforce it. But now we’ve seen the SAME leadership despite multiple embarrassing incidents like this, year after year. The Dutch cycling organization must be noted for their ability to produce an absolutely dominant women’s cycling machine; but called out for their inability to get them to work together. (I understand this happens with Dutch football/soccer, too, but not something I watch…)
It was only one big ego to be precise.
It be mint if when a question is asked you don’t then interrupt them every time they speak 😂
The Dutch raced against each other. No teamwork. They would have been the strongest team if they were a team. They all wanted to win, and as a result, none of them won.
There is an article in the Dutch newspaper today with the title: " Blinded by selfishness, the best Dutch cyclist has made herself impossible with her teammates" . This is an excellent description of what Demi has done to herself. First her TdF fail, and now this. I wonder if there is any team that is willing to have her onboard next year. I also understand now, why her SD Worx teammates did not wait for her in the TdF. Demi is toxic. Luckily we have Puck, who was amazing on her first road world championship. She is the future of Dutch women cycling.
It's funny: in the comment on the TdF, most comments criticized Demi's teammates for not supporting her; now suddenly all comments are against Demi. (I have no beef in this, I'm just noticing the contrast).
There still hasn't been an official announcement from either Demi or the team about her contract for the following year(s), which is quite strange. It almost feels like they still haven't finalized the deal.
Her ego probably wouldn't let her cede to the older Vos with 10 miles to go.
The cold and wet was must of been affecting a lot of the riders thought processes . Judging by the interviews at the finish. Sometimes you just stop caring and want to finish the thing and what ever happens happens.
if you compare mental strength Vollering and Van Vleuten... Vollering always has been selfish - can you remember 2021 UCI WC? Vollering and Van Vleuten should work for Vos - only Van Vleuten did... Vollering let her down as usual...
Excuses, For Demi Vollering, she was not thinking about anyone, but herself , and again are they professional bike racers, why can’t they race without radios.
No radio agree
I've seen some stupid riding but the Dutch, and especially Vollering, took the cake. Somehow they managed to fuck up every single opportunity.
One would think the World Championships format is deliberately mischievous. You race as a "Nation", but only the actual individual winner is "The Champion". That's a crazy contradiction right there, and when compounded with no race radios etc., it makes for potentially escalating confusion and drama - possibly what the organisers and TV coverage want! The Dutch are actually cursed in this sort of set-up - having too many potential winners. Either you pick one person in your team for whom you are putting in an all out team effort with a good plan from the start, or its an 'everyone for themselves' which is what happened at the end. One can criticise Vollering's actions, but she is a great rider herself - does she really want to ride slowly in the following group, hoping that Vos in the upfront bunch will win the sprint and nobody else will chase? Does she know how good Vos is actually feeling up there? Or does she try and give herself a chance as well, especially as she feels strong? I'd be interested to see what/if there was an original plan, because keeping all options open will of course create uncoordinated actions from individual competitors. Vollering's main failure was in attacking on the front and effectively pacing whilst not actually being able to drop the other competitors (except her own teamates) - perhaps the course just wasn't hilly enough for her to be at her most effective.
cheers for pucky gold!!! cant wait for cross!!!
Donkey Vollering had the wisdom to give up a 3-rider (in a break of 7) advantage, and then lead out Belgium for the win. Her churning up the climb dropping nobody, but her teammates, was the worst example of selfish riding I've seen in a while. So glad she won nothing.
Who is that presenter? Has she ever seen a bikerace before? Demis tactics gave her or her team zero chance of winning while having the strongest rider AND the fastest sprinter. That is the issue here.
To her credit, Vollering stuck to the original Dutch team plan, she was going to attack on the last climb. However, with no race radios many modern racers don't know how to adjust tactics without a DS shouting in their ear. She was desperate to win, but she should have kept her cool and protected Vos and Markus up the road. Live and learn. We'll see how she does away from SDWorx in 2025.
Intelligence means adjusting your plan if things don't go as expected.
@@daleforbes3322 that's on the DS. Any competent team DS should make sure their riders are well-briefed on what tactics they will use depending on how the race unfolds.
@@c-record I agree that it's the responsibility of the DS to prepare the team for the race. However, riders must also adjust to the situation on the road and not mechanically follow any plan that's unlikely to succeed. In this case, the Dutch had Markus in a break with Ghekiere. Should this break have gone to the line, Markus would have a 50% chance of winning. Then they had Markus and Vos in a 4 person break. Again a 50% chance of winning. Then they had a leading group of 8 with Vos the fastest sprinter amongst them. Vollering then decides to attack on the climb dropping Vos, the Dutch's best chance of victory. Then she goes into the final with Kopecky where she will never win. How pathetically stupid is that and that can't be blamed on the DS!
@@daleforbes3322 it seems stupid to us but again, in the race ... what did Vos say to Vollering when they came back? We don't know. Vollering might of thought it was up to her if Vos said she was running out of gas, and so she needed to try to get rid of Kopecky but of course it didn't work out that way. Again, being desperate and not keeping a cool head (willing to lose to win) was her undoing.
@@c-record I'm glad you agree it was stupid! It's highly unlikely that Vos would have said she was finished. She would not have put in the effort to be there at that stage of the race if she didn't think she could win it. In any event, even if Vos had said she couldn't go on, Vollering should have encouraged her and done everything in her power to get Vos to the line. A good example of this was when Caruso attacked Bernal in the Giro and Bernal was on the point of cracking and giving up and Dani Martinez was there to help and encourage Bernal to keep going and not lose too much time and eventually that allowed Bernal to win the Giro.
Why can't she let finish anyone of her guests, she constantly breaks in when they are trying to answer, very annoying!!!
is lady on the left side capable of allowing others to finish their sentence/idea? :)
With all respect Marianne Vos was not good enough, she would have been dropped anyway. The Dutch on this course only had one to be able to win. All others (also Vos) should have worked to keep a very high pace to make it a hard race. Markus and Vos, escaping before the deciding uphill so Demi could not use the uphill was plain stupid!
This is the accurate assesment. Vos said she was cooked in the back part of the race. She didn't have a winning sprint in her. The tactical errors are multiple but it's not all on Vollering.
Demi was chasing her own teammates. Dutch team was with two riders in a front group of 4. Demi should have waited at the wheels of other riders…she was acting indeed stupid
The Dutch riders, Markus and Vos, have been overly kind to Vollering. The fact that Vos was still in the lead group a few kms from the end shows that she had enough left in the tank to win a sprint to the line.
Kopecky was dropped and dead in the water at some point. She even told Ghekiere to go on and ride for herself, because she was done. Yet she came back, held her cool and won by using smart tactics.
@@daleforbes3322 Vos was done, over and out. When the group came back, she was the first to be dropped, while Roseman stayed with the best until the end.
The whole setup for the team was to try to make Demi win. Even Markus and Vos said so afterwards. To do so they tried to make the race hard on all levels but in the end she just wasn’t able to make the difference.
I think the blame shifts too much towards Demi as an individual. She rode the way they had agreed upon as far as we know now. She gave it her all and just didn’t succeed.
man, listen to them once again - if you are 16 km to go, you are not going to drop Vos... Vollering once again showed her immature personality and huuuge selfishness...
Its not not the first time the Dutch team lost a gold medal by stupid tactics
She is the GOAB.
UCI will leave you lying on the side of the road, in the cold rain, for an hour minimum.
Agreed.
If you think that was stupid what about Pogi 😂 he even admitted it was stupid but hey it worked but then again he's Pogi
@@lisao9486 unfortunately Demi is no Pogi - she can't ride riders off her wheel and then hold off the best for 80 kms
Selfish Demi back at it again!...That's why her team mates at SD-Worx don't like to ride for her.
Vos should have been riding for Demi
She did! She helped to close the gap to teammate Markus!
If if if... kopecky is worldchampion and deserved it period
Exactly, and the 2nd place for Choe Dygart is also amazing, because I hardly noticed her during the race. Happy for Lotte and Chloe.
she is really the best and would be the world champion if ...
She was neither the best on that day nor on that course. Vos followed the “orders” but otherwise she, that is, Vos, had the best chance of becoming world champion. And Vollering, as usual, had to cry again.
@@Cornelis-Dz Don't be ridiculous. Vollering made plenty of mistakes, but anyone who knows a litte bit about cycling and is objective saw that Vollering was easily the strongest in the race. Even Kopecky said so after the finish.
@@nahadoth2087 You are apparently a fan of Vollering and I respect your opinion. If my opinion makes me look ridiculous then so be it. In my eyes Demi is a spoiled selfish child who has to win at all costs even if she is not always the best. Can't deny that she is a top athlete but often just not the best.
@@Cornelis-Dz I'm a Kopecky fan actually. So, I'm pretty stoked with how this race ended up going.
You're the one here who is unreasonably biased, not me. Whether Demi is selfish or not is irrelevant. She was the strongest rider in race this day, just like she was the strongest in the Tour de Femme. Both she lost because of shitty tactics, both by her and her team. Claiming otherwise you're either intentionally lying or you don't know what you're talking about. Either way you're wrong. And I don't respect it.
@@nahadoth2087 Hoe u erover denkt vind ik ok. Ik hoop dat dat wel ok is. Zo niet dan weet ik niet wat verder te zeggen. Ik vind het ok dat u een andere mening hebt. Prettige dag verder.
Let them speak orla ..
Demi is to selfisch, that why she did not win. Only my, my, will never eind good.
She didn't learn her lesson from the TdF when her SD Worx teammates did to her what she did to Markus and Vos in this race.
Strange discussion. They wear the national jersey but there is no national team order. Why would Demi ride for Marianne?
She doesn't have to but this is the result if she didn't. Demi almost certainly can't win a sprint finish so it was between helping Marianne or they all lose.
@@ru40342 she thought that the others were not strong enough to follow her ,but she had to stop after she saw that there were three others folllwwing here and that marianne vos wasn't there anymore ...she did all the work and got the others back and wasn't able to escape by herself ..so stupid tactics
The annoying show. blocked
Why must Demi ride for Vos? This is the world championship. As a rider if you can win it then you must go for it and it is up to everyone else to beat you. Cycling is a team sport except Olympics and World Championship then it is an individual sport.
u have absolutely no idea what u are talking about. u clearly haven't watched the race.
FYI, vos and markus were in the break of 4. just to be clear, that is 2 dutch riders out of 4 riders; where vos being the strongest/fastest rider by a country mile. now this is looking pretty good for both the netherlands and vollering. cos vollering can just sit back and let her opponents spend their energy to bring back vos. does that make sense to u?
what does vollering do, would you like to know? she used up her remaining teammates to bring back her own teammates (her teammates who are working to make a stronger case for her). and thus completely isolating herself and making her vulnerable for attacks. (Warning, caps lock on) DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW STUPID THAT IS NOW????? SHE COULD'VE FORCED HER OPPONENTS TO DO ALL THE HARD WORK, WHICH WOULD'VE DRASTICALLY IMPROVEd HER CHANCES OF WINNING THE RACE (((NOT JUST HER TEAMMATES)))). OR OR OR, SHE COULD'VE JUST NOT DONE NOTHING. HER DOING NOTHING WOULD'VE BEEN 100 TIMES BETTER THAN WHAT SHE DID. WHICH IS SHOOT HERSELF IN THE FOOT!!!
that wasn't the end though. no no, not on ur nelly. after that, vollering attacks on the final climb (or the penultimate) and "only" dropping vos. WHEN VOLLERING COULD'VE PAIRED UP WITH VOS AND ROLLED ATTACKS!!!!
P.S. it wasn't the team's lack of cohesiveness (the excuse she made). IT WAS A MIXTURE OF HER SELFISHNESS AND STUPIDITY THAT COST NOT ONLY HER CHANCES OF WINNING, BUT ALSO BRINGING EMBARASSMENT TO HER NATION.
@sudsehun My comments had nothing to do with the race. Go Back and read my comments again and if you are unable to understand the sub text of the comments I can translate them into Afrikaans, Flemish Dutch, Russian or German. DOOS.
@@robertbonnette1253 then do so. enlighten me with ur nuanced racing philosophy that is beyond my level of understanding. i'm all ears.
u try to instil ur potato couch ideology as racecraft by uttering nonsense like, "cycling is a team sport except in the olympics and worlds". and expect anyone to take u seriously? it's like a sad little inside joke that only u're aware of. do realise that, actual ppl, living above ur basement have never gotten around to reading ur 'what is cycling' manifesto. see, were not subscribed to ur 'simplemindedsam' youtube channel.
cycling road racing is ALWAYS a team sport - only it are different teams at some events. And if riders forget or ignore that they will not win - simple as that! You cannot dispute that, and this years results show that as clear as possible: despite having the strongest team (by far!!!) the Dutch won neither the Olympics nor the WC, and Vollering, though be the best rider by a huge margin, didn’t win the Tour de France - because of her team abandoning her. Not a team sport? Than try to win without support… good luck!
@fiddleronthebike I agree with your view. What I am saying is that why must one person give up their dream of being a world champion. If you have the capability to win then you must go for it. A bit of a selfish view but that's why we race. Normal racing is different and the team helps the leader.
Side note"; What the hell are these announcers wearing? It's like they are going out to two different affairs. Is there no coordinated stylist on set at Eurosport? The man and woman in center are going to an afternoon casual lunch. The two woman on the ends are going to a trashy house party on a Saturday night, in which neither of could figure out what to wear. Help them!
They are hosting a world class sporting event live for the world! Get co ordinated! this only happens once a year it's a big deal supposedly. Where is the art director? They all clash badly with the set. They look so unprofessional and out of place it's very hard to believe they know what they are talking about is the outcome. And that's not what you want from your supposed experts.
Orla always dresses like she going clubbing in the 90s and the rest wear t-shirts or off the shelf clothes. Orla is the discrepancy here., she always over dresses for a cycling show.
Who cares what they are wearing? 😂
Who cares about how anyone dresses?
She is probably having fun while "dressing unconventionally" for a cycling show @@Liofa73 how are cycling commentators supposed to dress anyway? Lycra? 😂 Still she is making us talk about her so the strategy works.
@@Liofa73it’s over the top and she needs to go
Flip it around: why can't Vos keep up? "Nobody loves Goliath".
Because she's had her time, she's slowing up now she's older.
The pundits are forgetting that Markus and Vos attacked Vollering earlier before the last big climb. The last long climb was the obvious place for Demi to attack, and what she needed was for her team to get her to the bottom of the climb at the front of the pack, with no break up the road. Demi could've lit the afterburners and dropped everybody, and then ridden solo to the finish. But no, Markus and then Vos attacked at the point where the Dutch team should have been on the front of the peloton, setting a hard tempo leading into the main climb.
Markus and Vos went, Demi let them go. It was Longo Borghini who chased them down with Demi on her wheel. Demi, then did the correct thing in going over the top of Longo Borghini when contact was made with the Vos group, seeing as Kopecky and Kasia had been dropped, and Longo Borghini may have needed to recover after closing the gap.
It is then quite possible that on the final ramp, the one on which Demi dropped Vos, that Longo Borghini would have attacked and dropped Vos anyway, as she could not afford to take Vos to the line. Demi knew this and was well aware that the big threat of Kopecky, was also closing the gap. So, Demi anticipated the Longo Borghini attack and went first.
If the other riders who went with Vollering had cooperated, then Kopecky and Dygart would never have made it back on.
The Dutch tactics from the get-go were hair-brained, and I can understand why Vollering gets so animated and frustrated on the road - she's the strongest stage race rider and strongest Ardennes - style one day race rider, yet her trade team and her national team are always riding against her. If the Dutch team had ridden purely for Demi, Demi would've won. If they'd ridden solely for Vos, Vos would've been dropped on the last lap.
I've seen a lot of critism against Vollering, but the reality is, the Dutch lost the race when Markus, and then Vos, attacked Demi before the long climb on the final lap. It was an idiotic move.
1. AFAIK (but that's not from TV footage as the TV director / camera men on the motorcycle did a poor job), Vollering initiated the last-lap last-climb attack. Why? I'll tell you: because she couldn't accept Vos winning the WC.
2. She had 2 out of 4 on the road. Before she initiated that attack, Bredewold (her team mate) chased on the flat to the finish to keep the gap small (enough) to chase them back. Why? I'll tell you: because she couldn't accept Vos winning the WC.
3. The final ramp, if Longo Borghini, as you say and I quote "quite possible ... would have attacked", why did Vollering take that initiative. Why? --> I'll tell you: because she couldn't accept Vos winning the WC.
4. As you say: "If the other riders who went with Vollering had cooperated, then Kopecky and Dygart would never have made it back on." So why drop your team mates that could have done the pacing? --> I'll tell you: because she would rather be in a situation she cannot control / handle, as the only member of team Holland, than to be in a situation where her team mates either control but also have a chance to win, and Vollering couldn't accept Vos / Markus winning the WC.
5. Your quote: "If the Dutch team had ridden purely for Demi, Demi would've won." --> Did you handily forget Elisa Longo Borghini, never dropped by Vollering's attacks, almost dropping Vollering and winning the sprint of Vollering easily?
6. " If they'd ridden solely for Vos, Vos would've been dropped on the last lap. --> Vos was in an excellent position, until Vollering decided she would F^&* her up by having Bredewold pull, herself attack on Witikon and using the last ramp on the plateau to drop her so she was for sure the first Dutch but never in a good place to win the race.
7. "I've seen a lot of critism against Vollering, but the reality is, the Dutch lost the race when Markus, and then Vos, attacked Demi before the long climb on the final lap. It was an idiotic move." --> it was a race-winning move if the Dutch didn't chase it! That's the whole point but you clearly didn't watch the race well.
@l.d.t.6327 1. Longo Borghini attacked and closed the minute gap to the front four. Demi followed.
2. Yes, Bredewold was on the front prior to Longo Borghini closing the gap, but while Bredewold was on the front, the gap to the front four was extending. So all Misha was doing was pacing, she did nothing to close the gap and instead let the gap go out. But why did Markus attack where she did? The ideal place for Demi to attack was at the base of the main climb. It was a pointless move by Markus, as Longo Borghini proved. If Markus, Bredwold et al, had instead set a hard pace on the front to stop attacks prior to the main climb, then Vollering could have launched her attack at the base and had time to ride everybody off her wheel.
3. Why shouldn't Vollering take the initiative. It was the obvious spot for Longo Borghini to attack, so it was right for Vollering to attempt to beat her to the punch. The fact that both Vos and Markus were dropped, proves that Vos was never going to win as long as Longo Borghini was still there.
4. No, because had Longo Borghini attacked on the last ramp - the only place remaining to ensure she didn't take Vos to the line, then neither Markus or Vos would have been there to help Vollering.
5. No, I didn't forget Longo Borghini. Longo Borghini has shown time and time again, that over shorter efforts, she is more than capable of hanging with Vollering. However, when the climb is longer, Demi consistently rides Longo Borghini and everybody else of her wheel. If the Dutch team had set Demi up to attack at the base of the main climb, then it is quite probable that everybody would've been dropped by the top. Even if Longo Borghini was able to stay with Vollering, they would've been clear of everybody else, and being just the two of them, would've worked together to the line (Longo Borghini couldn't sandbag as Vos, Kopecky et al would have caught up and outsprinted at the line). Longo Borghini beat Demi in the sprint on Saturday because Vollering did far more work over the last 10km of the course, whilst Longo Borghini was saving energy. If it had just been a straight up sprint between the two, after both cooperating over the final kms, then Demi would likely have won.
6. I refer you to point 3.
7. Again, the Dutch didn't chase. While Bredewold was on the front, the gap was going out. Once it went over a minute, Longo Borghini attacked and closed the gap.
What is interesting is that in the majority of your points, you keep mentioning that the reason why blah blah, was because Vollering couldn't except Vos or anybody else in her team winning. The simple fact is that the course was ideal for Vollering and only an outside chance for a sprinter like Vos. However, just like with SD Worx all season, Vollering had to go through the race with her own teammates attacking her, because they couldn't accept Vollering winning. They'd rather lose the race, the Tour, the World Championships than see Vollering win. Now you say that Vollering can't accept anyone else winning, but in all the races this year that favoured Wiebes or Kopecky, Demi did her work for her leader without any sandbagging. So why is that every race in which she is her team's best rider for that race, if not the favourite in peloton overall, does Vollering have to herd cats? I don't know. Maybe Demi is a terrible person and her teammates hate her, but it definitely can't be because of how she rides, unless it's just plain jealousy.
@@John_Wall if the course was ideal for vollering, she would have dropped them all. Fact is she couldn’t even drop Kopecky, and the moment Kopecky was back before the descend, she shouldn’t have done one meter at the front and look back (Vos wasn’t far back). But she didn’t. She stubbornly believed, until the last 200 meters when she started her sprint at the front like a first year junior, she was miraculously going to win, so she could give an interview and blame everyone but herself that she lost.
@l.d.t.6327 Come on buddy, really?? Even the strongest rider in the history of the sport wouldn't be able to win a race single handedly....go off the front at km 0 and ride solo right to the end. Even if the course was ideal for Demi, she still would have to rely on her team to control the race, and set her up for her attack at the optimal point of the race. I've already described when and where that should and could have been, had Markus and then Vos not attacked Demi.
Kopecky was dropped after Longo Borghini chased down Vos et al, but if the Dutch team had set Demi up to launch her attack further down the main climb to where Longo Borghini attacked, and with no break a minute up the road, then the gap back to Kopecky and the rest would have been much greater. Demi would have had no hangers on, hiding on her wheel making her do all the work. As I've already said, the only rider of the day who was able to keep up with Vollering over the reduced length of the climb (due to the Dutch not setting Vollering up to launch way further down the climb for maximum damage to her rivals) was Longo Borghini, and it would have been in her interest to work with Vollering to the line, rather than let better sprinters back into the game.
At the point that Markus attacked, the Dutch were in complete control and Vollering was looking strong. There was no need to go to plan C (Markus), and then B (Vos), when plan A (Vollering) was still very much on. As I said before, no wonder Vollering gets so visibly animated and frustrated on the road - she doesn't just have to worry about her rivals from other teams attacking her, she also has to contend with her teammates attacking her. It is absolutely ridiculous. Look at the amount of stick Marc Soler has received over the last few seasons every time he goes rogue and attacks his team leader. Demi doesn't have just one rogue teammate, she has several and every race.
@@John_Wall " if the Dutch team had set Demi up to launch her attack further down the main climb to where Longo Borghini attacked, and with no break a minute up the road, then the gap back to Kopecky and the rest would have been much greater" How do you know? We've seen, in all races, that no one was able to drop all others in the last lap. But in the Women's race Vollering magically would have ridden all others off her wheel because you think / assume things that aren't there and also aren't likely by what we saw in the race? All I know is Demi couldn't get rid of other riders on the climb: Longo Borghini attacked before they got to the front, Vollering counter-attacked but she simply couldn't get rid of 3-4 other riders. If she was this strong, she could have counter-attacked Longo Borghini and dropped her or at least the others. But she didn't / couldn't (even drop Lippert / Kopecky / Gannon or Vos while overtaking the front group and powering hard). And once they connected with the front of the race, instead of racing tactically, she decided to use her blunt force, resulting in only Dutch riders getting dropped. Vos was only 100 meters behind the front 4 when Vollering kept powering, on the flat! At that moment she should have known she wasn't beating Lippert, Longo Borghini and Kopecky in a sprint, but she still pulled that front group!
UCI and it's security for ciclists right??1 hour to help that girl is sickening , hopefully authorities take care of UCI HEAD HONCHO
Sadly, cycling is getting like football coverage. Too much (boring?) talking before and after a race. Too many saying who should do what and when and then who did what and when. We don't need any of it - just the actual race will do fine thanks.
Then just ignore it. Why are you even here?
@@nahadoth2087 I do and I didn't realise that the new socialist ethics of not being allowed an opposite opinion had actually spread to cycling. It's a strange world.
@@mickraynor7957 Lol. Of course you're that kind of person. You say a shitty thing in a public forum but then as soon as someone challenges you on it, you go crying about oppression like the cowardly little snowflake you are.
leave Demi alone look at crap she had to put up FO.
she is the best and she knows this and her behaviour is also like this ..
Who watches this 💩 !
such a weird dynamic with three women and one man discussing. Their mouths are opening up so wide for no reason all the time.. ?
What a stupid comment
Pointless debate - its the same nonsense you get from the football pundits on Match of the Day (MOTD tv show) "should have could have"
Does the "lady" in green have a sencond job at the red light bar downtown?
Do you have a second job as a censor in the 1950's?