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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2023
- There have been proposals to build a High-Speed Rail Line (or Very Fast Train) in Australia for decades... so why hasn't one been built yet?
People have wanted to link Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne with a high speed rail line for a long time, and in this video I examine what challenges High Speed Rail faces in Australia, and how we can overcome these challenges to finally get it built!
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Freight Rail in Australia Explained Video: • Why Australia moves so...
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Unfortunately Qantas (and to a lesser extent Virgin) have extremely powerful lobbying power in Canberra. They’ll do what ever they can to pressure both major parties to avoid making interstate rail a viable alternative to air travel.
When you consider that all but a few federal MPs need to fly to and from Canberra, and those with ministries, shadow portfolios and committee positions may need to fly even more, it’s not hard for the airlines to curry favour with politicians. Something as simple as lounge membership, so MPs can get some work done and avoid being harrassed by members of the public.
legal corruption
Maybe partner with these air carriers to get it done? It would need to be operated one way or the other
Somebody forgot to add the NSW Department of Main Roads or whatever incarnation it is this year always has a tantrum if it misses out on a big project. That is why Sydney to Newcastle is still too slow as is Sydney to Wollongong and Sydney to Canberra. Big trips are out of their mind. ( the TWU may have something to do with it too)
Qantas is probably one of the worst companies from Australia, they head cooperate team are just evil greedy people but to be fair what large company doesn't have a greedy corrupt leadership
They should do this immediately! Shaving 4 hours is huge, and the cost benefit is there
I had no idea that is wild only 4 years heck do it at this point if you build a new railway just skip to maglev lol
If Australia doesn't have the population to build a Disneyland and then we're never getting a high-speed rail
@@wtfa2910because the air corridor of Brisbane through Sydney to Melbourne is one of the busiest in the entire world and it would snap the idiotic monopoly of airlines leeching the government and fleecing the people… OH AND it would also do a ton to fix the overly inflated property/rental markets, might even cause them to rightly crash to a normal level.
@@wtfa2910 the Sydney to Melbourne corridor is the 2nd busiest flight corridor in the world, this is about transport, Disneyland is irrelevant
I like the proposal to upgrade existing track from MEL to SYD. If we can get remove some of the bends and put double tracks to save 4 hours, more people would catch this train.
Considering the rate at which Australia’s population is growing we just can’t keep on relying on air travel for the golden triangle. A railroad from Sydney to Melbourne would be highly successful but I wonder if Sydney to Brisbane wouldn’t be more important to build first. It would link up Newcastle to Sydney so would have good commuter demand and link up all urban centers along the coast from Coffs Harbour, Byron Bay, Gold Coast and Brisbane. Traffic wouldn’t simply be Sydney to Brisbane but also to have high leisure traffic to the cities in between, especially for off peak travel.
That being said. We also have to remember Melbourne is incapable of building an airport rail link so a high speed rail all the way to Albury seems like a moonshot.
No one wants to go to Brisbane, it is a sprawling piece of 💩
Sydney to Brisbane is more difficult. The demand is there but the engineering is not as simple, mostly because of rivers and bridges. There was an inland connection as early as 1888 but the North Coast line wasn't completed until 1930 - and there was still a ferry until 1932. Even the Pacific Highway had at least one ferry crossing until 1966.
The inland line is not an easy fix either as it has fallen into disuse and hasn't been a complete connection since 1988.
A HSR from Newcastle to Sydney, then Sydney to an all new southern commuter town, then out to Canberra would be a good staged start. You could then extend fast (or HSR) rail out to Port Mac, then to Coffs, then all the way to the Gold Cost and Brisbane. You could also build HSR from Melbourne to a new commuter town and Benalla, then run fast train from there to Goulburn until the final track from Benalla to Goulburn is finished.
@@shraka The last Sydney - Melbourne high-speed train proposal I saw did not go with coo-ee of Benalla or Goulburn. Going north it passed close to Shepparton. It then crossed the current main southern line midway between Wagga and Albury (Riverina Station) before heading to Canberra and then on to Sydney via Wollongong. Only something like three or four stations between Sydney and Melbourne. Every stop adds significantly to travel times. The cost of high speed train fares overseas makes commuting unlikely. More than most people would earn in a day
@@davidcarter4247 Lots of people use the Shinkansen to commute.
Running the train via Canberra is a terrible idea. It's all up hill and you have to hook around the mountains to get out to Melbourne. You'd be adding half an hour to an hour to the trip. I think a spur line is a much better idea.
One of the things you didn't mention, and it's speculative, but high(er) speed rail between capital cities and the regions could promote regional growth first as commutable destinations, then through service industries to support those new commuters.
Good theory but the fact is NO govt. wants anyone living in rural areas!
You could pay people to dig a whole and throw money in it and it would promote regional growth.
my thought too
Hi, regional journalist here who's been born and raised in the bush.
That will never, ever, happen. About three-quarters of the votes in this country are in the capital cities, and the majority of those are around Sydney/Melbourne. They'll never allow it.
I don'y quite understand @@hoilst265 Why would those crammed into 2 bedroom units in Sydney and Melbourne vote against the chance to buy a house a half hour commute from the city they have to work in?
There's the addes benefit of a HSR corridor of generating wealth and growth in smaller cities. Instead of cramming all the population in Melbourne and Sydney, it would allow growth in Newcastle, Goulborn, Canberra, Albury and Shepparton. Sydney is especially congested and doesn't need explosive population growth, but the smaller cities would benefit massively.
I would propose first building Shepparton to Albury first, then linking it to Goulburn or Canberra.
Once it’s easy to travel between those cities at high speed, they will grow faster.
Connecting it to Melbourne will be the hardest stretch, it could stop at Broadmeadows or Cragieburn to begin with.
Australia strategy to transform Melbourne and Sydney into an Asian metropolis like Singapore, Bangkok, Tokyo, Hongkong. Sydney like Shanghai and Melbourne like Paris with much smaller population
@@VanTran-ne4yf Who says that? That would not popular with the people who live there. I live in Melbourne and most people are already fed up with how crowded it is and how busy everything is. Australians are angry about the level of immigration and want to it to be cut back a lot.
@@Icipher353to zero please. Until we have created better infrastructure and housing.
@@Icipher353 If you look back to Melbourne and Sydney 30 years ago, the CBD like a gosh town like Perth , Hobart and Adelaide now. People living in the outer suburb and feel proud of it. Now people consider to be rich with high income living in city apartment and own home within a few km from CBD. what do you think will happen in the next 30 years ? Melbourne and Sydney became beijing, Shanghai, Singapore, Toyko, Hongkong of southern hemisphere. so everyone put on your seat belt,stop been a redneck, anti immigration, racism because the big end of town going smash the aussie redneck head into pieces like Carl William. "Green and gold aussie get out" no money no talk
The worst part of this video is that starts dealing with the red herring that high speed rail in Australia is about long distance, intercapital services. At one point it drifts into (almost) realising that the real value from HSR is where it services corridors that are car dominated. And then it drifts back into talking about Sydney to Melbourne. The places where high speed rail actually makes sense are in the corridor between Newcastle, Sydney and Wollongong and the corridor between Brisbane and the Gold Coast. Significantly, these are corridors where if we don't build HSR, we'll be throwing a similarly sized bucket of cash at building more roads.
The reason why HSR has languished in this country is precisely because we are stuck in a rut, intellectually speaking. We are obsessed with high speed rail as a mean to replace air travel, when in fact (and you can look to Europe for may examples) where HSR is popular, it's actually in relatively short corridors in which cars had been the major mode of transport. Australia is singular in this obsession about air travel vs HSR. No other country has gone forward with building HSR on the basis of competing with air travel. But here in Australia, we just go over and over the whole Sydney to Melbourne thing.
There's a blog writer called Hot Rails who draws out plans to straighten the major Australian railways. He's been slowly working out a plan based on the specs for tilting trains that can reach 200km/h in the cities and 250km/h in the countryside, and his cost estimates come out a heck of a lot cheaper than most of the official blue-sky plans. Unfortunately he doesn't update very often and some of his older posts have been eaten by the blog (guessing that it takes a lot of work to do all of that planning). I think some of his plans are overly optimistic (he puts the Canberra city track on viaduct above Constitution Avenue, which the National Capital Authority -- Canberra's insanely powerful and conservative heritage board --- would absolutely never allow) but his route planning is overall extremely good.
I also think Australia shouldn't build this massive line at once. Rather building smaller HSR networks in local areas, like Brisbane-Gold Coast, Melbourne-Geelong, and Sydney-Newcastle. This way we work on multiple smaller projects rather than one massive one. This allow us to get a HSR network much faster and once the network is built the government will have far more confidence in expanding it. Once these smaller networks are build, we'd only need to just connect them up which won't cost much as most of the expensive purchases are already done and the industry/trains around it is already there. I feel like this will make it easier and give more immediate benefits to Australia then having to wait several decades for even the first HSR train to start moving.
While I agree, this sounds like an easy way to end up with even more fragmentation in our rail systems
I would love to see a 200 km/h twin track line Wagga to Southern Cross it would get things moving further north very quickly :)
Agree. Turn the debacle of the Califronia HSR on its head
For South East Queenaland, I would absolutely love to have 3 lines that will replace our express services.
Sunshine Coast HSR Line, terminating at Noosa.
Toowomba-Ipswich HSR Line, terminating at Central Toowomba.
Goldcoast HSR Line, terminating at a underground station in Surfers Paradise.
@@wilkgr I doubt any of those projects will go ahead without federal funding. So the fed can ensure they build using the same standard.
As long as governments are fixated on business cases and short termism, nothing will change. The Inland Railway project is an example of how governments interfere in good ideas due to short termism. Inland Rail could have been so much better than it is going to be. Progressive upgrades to the existing Brisbane-Sydney-Melbourne route was always the way to go yet 170 years after it was built it is actually getting slower rather than faster.
Australia is a lot like the US in the sense that short term profitability and convenience has always been preferred. Why we got nuclear powered submarines while we still use brown coal for power infrastructure.
But high speed would only benefit Melb and Sydney and then maybe Canberra... maybe Brisbane. A massive investment by the tax payer. But basically only benefits 2 States on a narrow section of land. How does fast rail have any benefit for Perth Adelaide Darwin etc. Its a massive investment, using tax payer money which could be used to benefit our health or employment all around Australia. Making the train a bit quicker is valid. But a rail is money massively wasted.
You do realise that most of Australia will never be able to use any of those high speed rails. Lets not get too centred on Sydney Melbourne.
@@BDub2024it benefits the overwhelming majority
@@BDub2024Melbourne and Sydney have the majority of the population in Australia bud
4:41 Only phase 2 of HS2 has been cancelled, phase 1 between London and Birmingham is still going ahead and has been under construction for the past three years
This was very well composed and presented. One current aspect of Australia's rail system that I note wasn't mentioned is the unreliability. All too frequently when I book long distance journeys on New South Wales Trainlink I receive an unwelcome message just a few days before to say that my train has been replaced with a coach. This harms the public relations image of the railways to the public.
Incremental upgrades is the best way forward in improving the Australian rail network. After all, the Hume, Pacific and Princes Highways connecting Sydney to Melbourne, Brisbane and the South Coast respectively were all once single-lane roads with circuitous and dangerous alignments, and were brought up to modern high-speed dual carriageway/freeway standards through incrementally upgrading small sections at a time.
Oh, I think you mean when they were interesting to drive on, went though small towns providing custom, before they became racetracks.
But high speed would only benefit Melb and Sydney and then maybe Canberra... maybe Brisbane. A massive investment by the tax payer. But basically only benefits 2 States on a narrow section of land. How does fast rail have any benefit for Perth Adelaide Darwin etc. Its a massive investment, using tax payer money which could be used to benefit our health or employment all around Australia. Making the train a bit quicker is valid. But a rail is money massively wasted. All people in Australia need to benefit. So money spent around Australia.
There is absolutely an apatite for it too. As someone who catches the Canberra to Sydney train relatively frequently I'm not alone in noticing that it's become more popular lately despite taking longer than the bus. If they gradually upgrade the system between the cities and larger towns to allow a slightly higher speed and frequency I think it would be pretty successful.
But high speed would only benefit Melb and Sydney and then maybe Canberra... maybe Brisbane. A massive investment by the tax payer. But basically only benefits 2 States on a narrow section of land. How does fast rail have any benefit for Perth Adelaide Darwin etc. Its a massive investment, using tax payer money which could be used to benefit our health or employment all around Australia. Making the train a bit quicker is valid. But a rail is money massively wasted.
The answer has always been yes. We need to establish the east coast HSR and then limit the number of passenger flights along the corridor. Australia is not doing enough to be more efficient, but this will help, especially trips to Canberra. France has paved the way for this approach.
@@soulsphere9242The marketplace would determine the method used for travel. A semi-high speed train could be a great choice.
@@soulsphere9242 given how Qantas has monopolised travel between these cities, yes.
@@soulsphere9242 you are also restricting the people's option NOT to fly. Screw Qantas by all means, they've siphoned enough. They need competition.
@@soulsphere9242 By getting people onto the HSR which is a good thing. Also you can actually do competitive HSR services. Government owns the track, private companies can bit to run their own services - though an entirely government run service would probably be more efficient, as long as some ministers didn't come in the deliberately mess it up.
@@soulsphere9242 I'll never fly Qantas. Build the train!
5:12 yes technically correct in terms of flight time. But door to door factor play a big part aswell. Syd CBD to Mel CBD what 4-5 hours?
Canadians empathise with you.
So much talk about improving the Montreal to Toronto line, but right now they seem to be settling on high frequency and but high speed. It would simply be a regional train masquerading as an inter-regional train. We will probably still be talking about it in another 15 years.
The train here is also slower than the car, partly because cargo trains take priority.
It actually takes closer to 11 hours to drive from Syd to Melb, due to needing breaks and the traffic at each end. Quickest I've ever done it was a little over 10 hours, only stopped once for fuel and a toilet break and there was hardly any traffic in each city
Even just Newcastle to Sydney via central coast would be a hectic start
Yes, an incremental approach definitely seems like the best way to go.
For flying you've also left out the time to get to/from the airport, checking in, security screening etc.
Crazy that the Sapporo to Tokyo route is so popular given how much HSR there is in Japan, and over a similar distance as Sydney to Melbourne (1,100KM). This may change with the Shinkansen reaching all the way to Sapporo by 2030. Right now the final 250KM takes 6 hours by train.
Wait I thought they already had hokkaido shinkansen
@@theonlyalecazam2947rn at 2023 it only goes to Hakodate which is at the southern tip of Hokkaido island. Sapporo, another major city of Hokkaido is four hours away by train. Hence most ppl going to Sapporo from Tokyo either take the ferry or plane to get there.
There was also a "Bullet train for Australia" microparty but I think he merged or rebranded to Australian Progressives or something. Even with preferential voting it didn't have a lot of votes. HSR seems like something voters generally want but don't necessarily vote for, probably because folks know promises won't be kept.
I agree with your conclusions generally, we need more trains and somewhat faster trains, not necessarily a HSR hyperproject.
But high speed would only benefit Melb and Sydney and then maybe Canberra... maybe Brisbane. A massive investment by the tax payer. But basically only benefits 2 States on a narrow section of land. How does fast rail have any benefit for Perth Adelaide Darwin etc. Its a massive investment, using tax payer money which could be used to benefit our health or employment all around Australia. Making the train a bit quicker is valid. But a rail is money massively wasted.
I think only voters that travel between Melb and Syd would like the idea. Others would be unaware or indifferent.
I agree, upgrading the existing tracks is probably the most feasible option 😀
As a German, let me tell you that is a bad idea.
As an Australian, let me also tell you that this is a bad idea. Unfortunately :(
We've missed the boat on this one. We had an opportunity when China wrapped up the last of their HSR network a few years ago. They had a whole pile of specialised rail construction machines - some of the best in the world - doing nothing and available at short notice and for cheap.
Imagine being able to live on the Murray and it taking an hour to get to Melbourne CBD for work 😱
Interesting that tilt & route rationalisation could cut 5 hours off travel time, the new CAF trains that will run the route are non tilting due to UGL complaints at the EOI stage that they didn't have a tilt option in their portfolio, hence tilt was dropped from the technical specifications & the new trains are non tilting
I agree that the current focus should be improving mainline routes. Also I think people often understate the importance of freight rail. Unlike passenger rail that prioritizes speed, freight rail try to be as cost-efficient as possible, and higher-speed mainline railway falls just in the right spot on this point. At > 200km/h, operational cost will increase significantly, hence why HSR is more suited for passenger use in densely populated corridor.
I did a quick bit of mapping using QGIS and it looks to be rather simple to remove many of the sharp bends that we have in our 1860s - 1920s design railway that was literally all done without mechanical aides. Most of these tight bends have radii of less than 500 metres (some less than 300 m) and with mechanical aides it would be highly efficient and very fast to do a lot less than what is required for roads and cut / fill sides of hills / saddles to get far straighter parts of the tracks so that trains can run at least 150 km/h if not 250 - 350 km/h and not limited to 60 km/h - far safer than the roads and not import immense amounts of diesel fuel.
@@malcolmmoore6848 We're better off building new lines for HSR, especially since almost most HSR tech now is based on maglev. High speed conventionally powered trains are essentially exhibitions.
You are criminally underrated for the quality of this video, especially the writing. Great job!
This is one of the first videos or articles that provides a middle option, other than HSR or bust. Proper high speed like you seen Europe or Japan is a commercial non-starter in Australia. But this video actually has some sensible alternatives that would have some chance of working. Improving the existing tracks and enabling inter-city rail to go faster more consistently between our two biggest capital cities has some allure. One of the issues we have here of course is that anything involving more than one State government ends up in a bun fight between those governments. It's one of the down sides to federalism.
I love this honest assessment on our HSR prospects
Love the video! You talked about freight rail improvments in Australia and they are improving! The federal government has started something called the Botany Rail Duplication Project to allow more freight to be distributed around Sydney.
I randomly watched a train video a few months ago. Today this came up recommended. Good job for once youtube and a well made video to you mate
It would be a good start if they begin connecting major regional centres such as Wollongong - Sydney, Newcastle - Sydney or Sydney and the Blue mountains then upgrade lines for faster passenger and freight from there. That way you're maintaining profitability while meeting high demand routes. We really need an independent infrastructure department in Australia.
If they do go ahead with alignment upgrades, they should do it such that the curves are built for 250km/h. On the East Coast Main Line, trials with 140mph (225km/h) running were conducted, and the trains were capable of reaching that speed, but the lack of cab signalling meant that speeds were limited to 125mph (200km/h). Hopefully with the rollout of ETCS on the East Coast Main Line, we can see 140mph operation achieved.
My understanding from a relative who works in rail maintenance is that there's a lot of corners cut (patch it when it should be replaced) to keep costs down and that it is a large part of the problem. The biggest barriers to decent rail in Australia are definitely political.
Let's not play around. Track for 350kmh should be to standard
@@_peepyopee 350km/h isn't always possible. If the terrain allows for 350km/h without requiring too many tunnels, then build it to 350km/h. But if the terrain is very very hilly and would require dozens of expensive tunnels, 250km/h is still a good speed if it means actually getting the project built.
@@williamhuang8309 I agree. Where possible, 350kmh needs to be the standard.
I'm hoping it's get built. Considering Japan is getting ready to move on to Maglev. We're so far behind
ECML 140mph is a horrible idea outside passing lines you'd destroy regional rail capacity
Construction of the 815-kilometer, $13.5 billion Zhengzhou East-Wangzhou line was completed in less than five years.
China and Australia are vastly different. We have the highest labour costs and probably lowest productivity.
Sydney to Melbourne is about 9 hours by car [providing no hold ups] plus at least 1 ½ hours total for 2 breaks, which would be the legal minimum for heavy vehicle drivers and a good guide for car drivers, plus 15mins refuelling.
The XPT is about 10 hours plus the time to & from the stations.
Traditionally most travelled the route [by rail or coach] overnight, so journey time of around 12 hours on the Southern Auroa was fine.
It's shocking that distance takes an entire day while Japan of that same distance/size, it's under 3 hours round trip.
@@tristanbackup2536
While the shinkansen network, could halve the time or better, not everything goes that quick. Travel along the West Coast or East - West thru the mountains and it is no quicker.
Being able to just sit on a train to get from melbourne to sydney and then queensland feels like such a vibe and a fun trip. It would definitely be a great option to travel, especially with a group of people.
Well done Moose. I will have to have a look for Mr Laird’s information to see which section of track were proposed for the upgrades.
The alignment upgrade makes so much sense both economically and time wise. Great work 👍
Sounds like a great place to start. Thank you
I was thinking about this in japan just last week because the shinkansen are insanely helpful for getting around. We pretty much only have the Queensland rail here and the Glink tram which is really good, but only if you live along or near the GC highway. I feel like our population right now isn't at a level that would make these projects economically viable, but we are growing so fast. I would love to see a high speed rail network along the east coast at the very least. Having to drive up and down for holidays isn't always super fun and I'm no expert but I feel like that much interconnection would do wonders for population growth. I'm currently studying in engineering and a project like this would be my bread and butter if it ever came along. I've already been all over the cross river rail in classes and enjoyed it a lot.
There's also the economy of scale, Australia is huge, the east coast is gigantic and the amount of rail we'd need to construct then maintain would be enormous. The entire shinkansen network is around 2800km. That's around what we'd need just to connect Adelaide to Brisbane in ONE line, then you'd almost need to double it if you planned too hook cairns up to, being a major international hub for the northeast. It's pretty brutal, especially since they've been building that network since the 50's or 60's. We're better off finding the busiest corridors and starting there, with bigger projects in mind when we design them, for future connection. There's also the ridiculous corruption we're dealing with in Australia that's possibly the largest roadblock to efficient rail transport.
Actually upgrading existing routes is the way to go aim for any new sections to be rated for 200kph and your on to a winner especially if regional towns also had there bus systems greatly improved to make taking the train more attractive too.
Modern overnight sleeper trains could be nice!
4:42 the london to Birmingham leg is still going ahead btw, its just that the other part of the project was cancelled, so it now doesn't serve the north of England at all
Very insightful video!
The train shown at 4:51 is what the Australian XPT is based off of, known as the HST here, both have very similar designs and shared the same engines at one point, however i believe it was derated to survive the environment of Australia, as our sets are permitted to 125mph (although they dont anymore as they are being retired for mainline service), and I believe the XPT is permitted to 100mph. However the UK HST holds the record for the fastest diesel train.
They say the east coast railway tunnels are to small for high-speed trains or double stacked trains; that's why they are supposed to be building "the backbone" rail line further inland, but I do think if they could build a coastal high-speed railway line it would be very lucrative.
The biggest cost generator is running the line down the coast. The line should run inland from Brisbane - Toowoomba - Dubbo - Wagga Wagga - Melbourne. A branch at Dubbo to Goulburn then to Sydney and Canberra. At Wagga Wagga you branch to Adelaide and Melbourne. This opens up the interior as well as the fast link between the capitals.
Well shit
Hello, great video.
From my experience riding the Sydney- Melbourne line I would like to make the following commentary;
1- A majority of the line is duplified. All of the line in Vic is doubled, and it is doubled between Sydney and Junee, leaving only 153km of since track on the line.
2- Between Sydney and Junee the bendy track is due to the hilly terrain. While you could straighten this track it would likely need major bridge or tunnel work to achieve, which may even make a existing corridor upgrade project cost prohibitive. A program like Victoria's 2000-2006 Regional Fast Rail may be more realistic where individual curves are realigned in the existing corridor, rather then making a new corridor in itself.
Goulburn to Sydney rail line was made significantly worse for speed when double tracked in early 20th century. MORE tight curves were put in to ease grades for steam hauled freight trains. Modern high powered diesel-electric freights are slowed more by curves than grades. Cullerin Ranges track section is prime (bad) example. Even over this short section a return to previous alignment would save some minutes!
My support goes to Prof. Phillip Laird, in that a comprehensive upgrade of worst bits of Sydney-Melbourne line could lead to tilt train timings of less than 6 hours. Existing and prospective growth centres on the route - there are, at least 6 - would benefit by much faster than freeway connections to the nearest capital.
This needs to be done ASAP! Upgrading the alignment and reducing the travel time by 5 hours would be absolutely brilliant! So the 11 hour trip drops to 6 hours. With the current delays and cancellations in air travel, 6 hours would become highly competitive. Not to mention the time savings to get to/from the airport to the center of town. Wish someone with the private funding would just come and do it as successive State and Fed governments have done nothing!!!!
If this takes 45 years to build , many people who are watching this video may never see the end result ! I , for one would be 110 years old (a bit optimistic 🤭 ) !
@@murraykitson1436 I believe that’s the point of this video ie. improve the track and rail alignment of what is existing which could be achieved in far less time than a new build HST. The video explains this and it would be a better solution in the near term. 😉
It makes more sense to take out the kinks in the existing Melbourne/Sydney/Brisbane track with deviations and high frequency signalling and train control to allow for increase track speeds to 200kph where possible for both freight and passenger rail. Since interstate track is owned and maintain by Federal government owned Australian Rail Track Corporation as 'open access' network, New South Wales, Victoria state governments can also contribute to the costs as it also have has economic benefits to the 3 states.
If we going to invest money to to realign the track that will eventually become a dedicated high speed line, we should be pushing the limits of high speed rail towards an average speed of 300km/h +
Sydney to Newcastle in 30mins, Taree & Canberra in under 60
That
@@_peepyopee - You need different track build and design that includes continuous weld rail that is basically in a straight line for higher speeds above 200kph. This is why high speed rail is more expensive compared to standard design and construction.
But high speed would only benefit Melb and Sydney and then maybe Canberra... maybe Brisbane. A massive investment by the tax payer. But basically only benefits 2 States on a narrow section of land. How does fast rail have any benefit for Perth Adelaide Darwin etc. Its a massive investment, using tax payer money which could be used to benefit our health or employment all around Australia. Making the train a bit quicker is valid. But a rail is money massively wasted.
@@BDub2024 - Higher speed rail benefits Brisbane, Sydney Melbourne which have the largest concentration of east coast population and Canberra being the federal capital.
Why is rail is money massively wasted?
@@chrismckellar9350 Within 20 years Perth will be $3.5m, but tax payer money throughout Aust gets diverted for 3 major cities on a 40 year project. Poor use of money unless it benefits a broader section of the country. What is a major project in WA or SA the Cwlth tax money will be spent on? Won't happen. That's the answer about why its a waste.
I travelled extensively by overnight rail between Sydney and Melbourne, or in the reverse order mostly in single sleepers, for decades. I would love to see either or both high speed rail between the larger Eastern cities or the rail tracks upgraded as you suggested. Hope it can be done. Honestly the way Qantas treated customers and staff during and after Covid, it would be so wonderful to have all the benefits of train travel realised in Australia. Thank you for this interesting video.
Exactly, most mordern trains can travel up to 200km/h but rarely do so because of lack of track upgrades. Upgrading track is far more efficient for sparely populated or less wealthy country but sadly lack the headlines for politicians to want to persue them.
My proposal:
Each state does its thing while federally there’s a master plan.
In my state of NSW:
Make a dedicated through corridor line with major station under Western Sydney airport.
One branch line runs off this with a stop in Parramatta and terminates at Sydney Central.
The southern line goes: Wollongong; Moss Vale; Goulburn; Canberra; Albury - VIC rail takes over from here.
The northern line goes: Gosford; Newcastle; Taree; Port Macquarie; Kempsey; Coffs Harbour; Grafton; Ballina; Tweed Heads -QLD takes over from here.
Grow it in incremental stages from Western Sydney Airport out - exactly like we did with the Pacific and Hume Highway dual carriage way expansions.
It’ll take decades but stage by stage growth allows budgets to be offset by a growing patronage - plus add minor increases in taxation to building (especially commercial) around stations to capitalise on associated growth and demand in those specific areas; thereby reducing tax burdens for those not directly benefiting immediately from the project.
Additionally, a high speed rail project on a small scale would be a good start. The original 1990s Mag-Lev proposal was to be built between Sydney and Wollongong. The idea was that it was the country’s busiest land commuter corridor and Port Kembla would be the ideal location to produce the tracks. It would have seen a trip from Wollongong to Central take 21mins, down from over 2 hours.
In the end, the Howard government scuttled it. That period of immense wealth, huge tax cuts and middle class welfare, was the time to do it. Now it’ll be far more expensive and harder. Thanks little Johnny.
building high speed rail between melbourne and sydney would help establish shepparton, albury and canberra into bigger cities making it more viable over time and reducing the strain on melbourne and sydney’s city growth
As someone who lives in an rural area. A three hour train ride to Melbourne & back is a pain enough, it's 2023, we should be having faster public transport given how vast this country is. Not only a waste of time, it's shaving hours that can turn into days to months off your life just sitting there.
Aside from track quality one of the major issues with long distance passanger trains in nsw is that freight trains are prioritised in regional areas (for financial reasons) and local trains are prioritised on the inner city areas (this is pretty necessary if you want to maintain the commuter network).
This is where separate track systems should be used.
@@tristanbackup2536 that comes down to economic viability though. We could improve the situation by just prioritising passenger trains, as far as I know we don't have the situation that they do in the states where goods trains have been made longer over time to the point that they don't fit into passing loops so it should be possible but comes down to an issue of how rail maintenance is funded, which as an aside is one of the reasons it is cheaper for companies to put most of their goods in trucks.
Knew someone who helped draft one of the plans to link Melbourne and Brisbane by rail. They told me the plan was good till New South Wales wanted the train to go through Sydney. If there was a T-shaped solution where a separate service took people ouf of metropolitan Sydney to the high-speed tracks you could have had three rails (one up, one down and one for emergencies).
A.G.
You can make it work by quad tracking 3 track lines in Sydney would make reaching HSR stations easier for Sydney
Your videos are really good, you deserve more views
The only way to get HSR is to start it off with a shorter section. The original railway in NSW was from Redfern to Parramatta, so I think from Badgerys Creek Airport to Mascott Airport and the city as a starting point. The next stage would be to go Sydney Central to Gosford, Newcastle with the right of way declared to Brisbane. Next would be to Wollongong via the southern highlands possibly using the Maldon Dombarton link line somewhat improved. Meanwhile Melbourne and Brisbane are building compatible lines towards Sydney via connections onto the regular routes until the new HSR network is joined.
This was a great video. Unfortunately the current issues with Inland Rail are likely to make politicians and public servants wary of committing to any large federal rail projects in the next few years. We're likely to get more progress with a link to the Sunshine Coast, upgrades within VIC, and higher speeds in NSW (Newcastle, Sydney, Wollongong).
One area you didn't touch on is the quality of the rolling stock. Most long-distance rail in Australia is on ancient, noisy, uncomfortable stock that removes much of the comfort advantage that rail has over flying. Even without upgrading tracks and alignments a lot of improvement could be realised quickly.
I don't think there are any " long-distance rail in Australia is on ancient, noisy, uncomfortable stock " still running, not since the 1980's when the last of over night mail trains ceased, along with some of those 1950's railcars that used to bounce around a lot. The problem is mostly with the condition of the track and being maintained just good enough for freight.
Japanese have lots of highly curved [and banked] narrow gauge track, but they can maintain 100kph and still give smooth ride.
The current overland train (Melbourne to Adelaide) uses refurbished carriages that were built in the 1950s! There are even regional commuter trains in Victoria that date from the 1950s the Vline H sets.
@@nickhiscock8948 same with the Z sets. NSW's V sets date back to the 1970s.
Progressive upgrades make sense. You don't need the rail to be faster than a plane, just competitive. I think that if the trip to Sydney from Melbourne was 5 hours on a train I would probably take trips by train rather than plane.
On the Sydney-Melbourne via albury yes the blue mountains is excellent for this
Fast Track - I believe that’s the organization - has a similar proposal to progressively upgrade the line. It would start with focusing on the Sydney to Canberra portion - straightening out the track and changing the route from the main line to Canberra reducing travel from 4h to 1.5-2 hours.
This could be done as a Phase I and would have the benefit of reducing the need for flights between these two centres - it would be just as fast as flying, when all the other hassles of flying are considered.
It would also shave a couple hours off the Melbourne route, from 11h to 8h or so, which could attract more folks to the option - especially as an overnight “hotel” alternative. They could leave at 2200/2300h for night trains (arriving at 0600h/0700h - or even a bit later, would give buffer time for the train to run slower and coast into the city). Morning trains run at 0700/0800/0900h which should get people downtown to downtown in time for dinner (1500/1600/1700h).
Cool video! As an European currently in Australia I'm looking forward to my first train ride here! I think that improving bad parts of the tracks between Melbourne and Sydney would already make a huge difference. I do not think that a highspeed railway between those cities would be anything but a prestige project tho as you have pointed out population density is freakishly small when compared to Europe. (absolutely stunning as an European) Therefore, slower normal trains seem the way to go!
No brainer, Melbourne to Sydney, passing Canberra ticks all the boxes in a much needed high speed rail project. Mitigated risk by going ahead with issue of Government Bonds and later go Public and this could be the best gift Labour government has for the country. By 2040, extend the route to Brisbane and Adelaide. It will improve peoples connectivity and enriched the lifestyle, environment and culture.
Sydney centric Qantas (which lobbies and still has a massive fanbase in Canberra) is the answer why there remains no hi speed rail in Australia
Upgrading the existing track does make sense, but to make significant improvements will still be difficult. A high speed line from Wagga Wagga to Melbourne would be quite easy - that part already has mostly large radius curves. But the rest of the track would require a lot of work. The Wentworth route has been proposed for getting from SW Sydney to the Southern Highlands, and is a great idea, but it is an entirely new route requiring lots of new construction.
Upgrading the existing network would require a lot of new chords and cuttings anyway, and added to the disruption that would cause; would be as expensive as a high speed line.
I still think the now abandoned plan by the NSW government to develop HSR lines out of Sydney to Newcastle, Orange, Canberra and Nowra was a good idea. The line to Canberra particularly could also link in areas such as Goulburn and Bowral. If linked well with airports in Canberra, western Sydney and mascot, this could also add to further travel benefits. Large scale projects are perhaps to ambitious…we should start smaller and work our way out from there.
Yeah you guys should upgrade the line for 125 mph (200 kmh) double track it and electrify it sort of like the Northeast corridor in the US
Definitely aim for 250kmh minimum for new sections.
We wish ! 🙂
@@tepidtuna7450 of course you guys have the Gauge and electrical system fuckery although the NEC does change electrical system twice once in Hoboken NJ and New Haven CT cause south of Hoboken it's all 25 hertz 12 kilovolts but north of there it's 60 hertz and it switches to 25 kilovolts north of New Haven all the way to Boston
There is also the fact that WA, SA, TAS and the NT politicians would not be inclined to give more infrastructure money to the eastern states when they don't get enough for their states.
An alignment upgrade it's not sufficient to significantly improve the line without electrification. Maybe it's better start from an high speed line between Sydney (Campbelltown, where electrification ends), Ghoulbourn and Canberra as first phase.
Its not just the hardware of lines and tilt trains, but the service as well. Decades ago, I used to travel between Cairns and Brisbane a number of times and the service was great. These days, the same trip was nightmare. It occurred to me that the service had gone backwards. You used to have a dining car that was like a restaurant, non microwaved food (they did not have them then) a chance to relax have a drink as well. The food today is all microwaved and much of it is terrible. Back then the same trip had separate compartments for sleeping, and a chance to move around back and forth,which is needed on long trips. The QLD government of the day, and since, have tried to go 'el cheapo', and copy food delivery from the airways on the Brisbane to Cairns route, Yet the western routes still retained the old principles of dinning car and separate compartments - go figure.
South East Australia would have a similar profile to Spain. Population centres are concentrated in a handful of cities, with very small towns in between and significant distances between these distances. Australia might benefit from following the Spanish case studies.
Sydney-Melbourne and Sydney-Brisbane are comparable to Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres, yeah.
Except Spanish high speed rail uses an entirely different gauge to the mainline network. So the two cannot integrate.
Australian high speed rail could be entirely integral with the NSW mainline network, as it is in Germany, France and Italy. Trains services between Canberra or Melbourne and Wollongong could be possible. The southern Highland line could now use the HSR corridor in Sydney to terminate at Central, The service between Newcastle and Sydney could be a quick express bullet.
@@danieleyre8913 they have exported their rolling stock to systems using standard gauge so it's just a matter of using the right bogies
@@fauzirahman3285 Ah no. For high speed rail; it’s a lot more complicated than just “changing bogies”.
Not that I see what point you’re trying to make.
@@danieleyre8913 I get your point but I'm talking about the strategy really not so much the difference in gauge
Another factor you didn't mention is that the airline industry has a vested interest in HSR not being built, and Qantas has a lot of influence in Canberra.
eh, i think its more that most aussies would rather pay 100-200 bucks extra and save 10 hrs of their time. Aussies are just not poor enough as a nation for regular trains to be viable and high speed rail is just not going to happen politically due to the distances it would need to service. It makes more sense to have better train networks servicing the individual cities rather than interconnecting them. We would have to spend insane money to service pretty much just lower income/international tourism. Wealthy/Middle Class value 10-15hrs of their time a lot more than the cost and poorer families will only use it to travel if they dont require a car in the destination. Much rather the government fund better rail infrastructure around the existing cities so regional hubs are no longer cut off and the city networks are far better.
TBH, getting to Melbourne from Sydney in 5h is "high speed" enough for me. Overall about the same travel time as flying (when you consider the airport hassle on either side, plus the fact Melbourne Airport is nowhere near the city itself) but _far_ more comfortable!
Another quick fix would be running more than two trains per day to Melbourne/more than three trains per day to Canberra 🙃
There's a lot to be said for passenger rail transport...you can get up and stretch your legs for a coupe of carriages, if only to the dining car and sit in more comfortable seats, or if you have a sleeper room, you can go lay down in there for an hour or so during the day...try that in a plane walking around that easy, a bus, or a car. With the car you need to stop, and the bus has to stop. But rail, you can go for quite a few miles without the train stopping and still go for a walk.
Regarding the straightened line you drew, is it somehow related to the topography of the area or is it just a virtual representation?
Also, you shouldn't look at the construction of the line from a development oriented transit point of view but rather from a transit oriented development point of view. Building a high speed rail between two huge cities with an intermediate station is a reason for the area around that intermediate station to become a huge city in itself.
Past attempts at building high speed rail services in Australia have all failed for a variety of reasons. Vested interests, political squabbling and misinformation are some of the factors behind the repeated failures. Until these factors are addressed effectively, future attempts to build this type of nation building infrastructure will also fail.
Or the most obvious one everyone ignores because it’s better to stick to conspiracy theories. No one will pay the fares nor spend 4 hours each direction going to Syd/Melbourne for a 2 hour train journey
Sure but you omitted the main factor which is cost. Cost of building it and cost of using it. That is the main reason for the failure of previous proposals to get off the ground.
@@robman2095 Thank you for replying. In terms of the factors that have prevented previous high speed rail projects from being built cost is not the most significant. Vested interests include airlines and transport companies that see high speed rail as a competitor. Having previously worked on one of the many project proposals, I have seen first the numerous non financial barriers that stand in the way of any such project. The funding models used for large infrastructure project are complex and not well understood.
I love this!!!
Those freight trains are another reason the trips take so long on single tracks, always having to wait for slower trains that are in the way when going the same direction.
Couldn’t they do a Sydney-Canberra one? It’s only about 300 kilometers, lots of people travel between the two cities. Although the issue is there’s hardly anything in between. Not sure if it would justify spending all that much, but for a start.
Would have to probably go Wollongong and Goulburn on the way
The Southern Highlands and Goulburn aren't exactly nothing. A stop in Bowral (40k population) and Goulburn (25k) would be worthwhile
Liked this video, but the travel times at 5:07 are just stupidly incorrect. The flying time doesn't include getting through the airports, the driving time also doesn't include a break every 2 hours, something that is mandated by law. The train time is really the only correct one, and while that may seem like a long time, when done overnight on the sleeper service, it is really convenient, as it's like going to sleep in Sydney and waking up in Melbourne!
That's right. It takes me an hour to get to Melbourne airport, but 20 minutes to get to the CBD. The time saved to most people of having a service launch from Southern Cross is quite substantial.
If you are competing with air travel, it will fail.
Airline market wants frequent departures, every 15 mins at peak times.
it blows my mind that we can't travel via high speed rail from Melbourne to Canberra/Sydney.
Upgrading existing rail seems a good interim solution, but proper high speed rail should definitely be built
Firstly, the states, especially Victoria are broke. They can barely maintain their current infrastructure, so HSR is out of the question for them. So any kind of HSR initiative has to come from a particularly brave federal government that is willing to, to put in bluntly, get shit done. Infrastructure is a legislative area that has remained with the states since before and after federation, hence any kind of large-scale infrastructure build requires states to delegate power to allow the commonwealth to excercise it. So on top of the difficulties with securing funding, and convincing voters to agree to this proposal, the federal government would require support from all state governments that the HSR passes through, all of which will likely require certain concessions to agree, and some may flatly refuse if they have their own ideas for infrastructure that don't align with the federal government
high speed rail here in oz? HA! better chance of me winning the lottery
Still significant upgrades to railway lines straightening out the curves etc etc. Would be great but just look how long it’s taken to improve the freeway between Sydney and Brisbane decades and decades.
I likethe idea of just upgrading a few section and tilt trains :-) 4 years to save 5 hours seems like the way to go. I hate airports personally
We technically do have one. Although it's a 10 hour trip one way. It's called the XPT.
But it's not high speed rail.
The XPT used a variation of the InterCity 125, which is medium speed rolling stock, but fails to even reach those speeds due to bad tracks. This video talks about upgrading our tracks to let our rolling stock meet those speeds
Australia will never be able to invest money in High speed rail because our Government gives $30bill of tax payers money to aboriginals each year - so, if it took say 5 years to build a high speed rail that’s $150bill we would have already lost (down the drain basically as no accountability where this money goes). Tax payers put up with this????
but if you say this you get called racist. dumb cnt country
What a disgusting comment. As if money towards aborigines is really the issue. Do you feel better voicing your racist opinion?!
This & cut useless foreign “aid” and we could have this project done in 10 years.
@@jodhiait’s racist to take my tax money.
There are large towns every 30km(18miles) or so between Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane.
Yep and they would get bigger over time with an upgraded railway, increasing patronage further. Build it and they will come. 😉
Perfect for maglev then
The cost issue comes down to one thing - the cost of compulsory acquisition in Australia. Where the government acquires private land, they do not pay the landowner the market value of the land. Rather, the compensation is based off the developable value of the land - i.e. how much is the land worth based off its best and top use. This can be significantly higher than market value. This makes up the bulk of the cost of the high speed rail.
This is also the reason why they are exploring using existing tracks as much as possible (which is not desirable from a technological and end result point of view).
It is a fundamental mindset to use heavy earth moving machinery to rather quickly take out series of bends. Consider the Goulburn - Canberra route; there is about 16 km to skip (just north of) Queanbeyan and about 7 km to bypass just east of Bungendore, plus a few other “ripples/bends” that could be very quickly removed - and (south of) Goulburn - Canberra (Fishwick) about 94 km could be run at 200 - 250 km/h. My thoughts are to not “pass through” most Regional Cities but bypass them (by a few km) and use branch points for freight / passenger intermodal terminals.
there is a current project between Toowoomba and Brisbane. Unsure what stage it is at or even if we will get it. But it's a talking point constantly and we have a billboard about it.
Much as I'd like to see an Australian Shinkansen I think your upgrade idea is far more likely to leave the station!
extending the line north to Carins or Townsville from Brisbane for tourism and include Adelaide and Canberra at least. They could run express trains that are non- stop but also local trains that would service regional towns rather then killing of smaller towns like the highway systems have. Would love for one day to see all the capital cities connected by high speed rail
0:35 Many Victorians would argue the Suburban Rail Loop Project is a much more pressing and needed public transport project in Victoria than HSR
4:55 Keep in mind that there is a difference between door-to-door time and flight time.
HSR trains don’t have queues for boarding and exiting, don’t require extensive security, don’t need taxi a runway, and aren’t delayed by weather.
HSR between capitals would be an excellent price of infrastructure, but a good start might be too connect capitals to their second cities within states eg Sydney to Newcastle, Brisbane to Gold Coast and Melbourne to Geelong, incrementally adding cities in between and reducing the journeys most frequently made by car.
Qld already runs a popular fast tilt train north from Brisbane and is upgrading lines to the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast.
It would be great to be able to travel Brisbane-Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne by high-speed rail.
I read the Albanese government is establishing a high-speed rail body, so hopefully it will finally happen.
Great episode or two on Utopia to get you started on the business case