It's easier to plan ahead in Sydney because both sides of politics in NSW have supported building rail infrastructure when in govt. However, in Melbourne, the Vic Liberals are anti-rail. Remember, they won office in 2010 promising to build the Metro tunnel and then reneged on the project once they got in. One of the main reasons why they ended-up a one-term govt.
No they did not renege straight away. Ballieu was prepared to build it. But the crazy right of the Liberal Party undermined him in forced him out and replaced him with dopey Denis Napthine. Who replaced the sound Melbourne Metro with the complete idiotic Melbourne Rail Link. An absolute farce.
the vic libs wanted funding for the metro tunnel but the fed libs refused and would only support the east west link. abbott poisoned victorian politics from canberra.
That is so true, the Metro tunnel should be up and running by now. The Liberal State Govt. when in power, tried to have route redrawn to benefit its developer mates and terminating it at Southern Cross. Which would have just moved the choke point to that station.
@arlton It was because of political infighting and the Liberal Party moving to the right. Ballieu was supportive of the Melbourne Metro but Kroger and his Christian right cronies undermined Ballieu and put Denis Napthine in.
Something I heard from a metro presentation back in 2018 was that if all of the train lines represented the central nervous system of a human body, the city loop is the heart which is currently clogged, so freeing up the heart is the immediate concern for all future rail projects. Once the heart is clear we can focus efforts on everything else, like the airport link and the Suburban Rail Loop (SRL). The airport link is due to restart construction in the short term. It hasn’t been cancelled… And the south eastern point of the SRL has started construction. Whilst having a connection at South Yarra could’ve been ideal, realistically it only serves 3 lines and all of those go flinders which has all lines anyway where you can change to use the metro tunnel… Side note, Wyndham hasn’t been axed as new suburbs and the new stadium precinct that’s being constructed there, runs over the existing train line and a new station will be built as part of the project, that Line will ultimately connect to Werribee and by 2050 not be a vline service but reconfigured into the rest of the normal metro stations. Werribee also has connections to its own line and will have a connection to the western point of the SRL. THEN there’s the metro 2 tunnel which is still in the planning stages which will connect the Mernda and Werribee lines up, taking them out of the city loop adding newly constructed connections at Flagstaff, Southern Cross and Newport with brand new stations at Fitzroy and Fisherman’s Bend. Theres heaps of projects on the horizon but the Metro tunnel is honestly the first thing that needed to happen… We can’t just keep widening the Monash and Western Ring Road, public transport needed a complete overhaul
> The airport link is due to restart construction in the short term. It hasn’t been cancelled… It's been officially shelved. That means that there are no current plans to restart it.
I suspect the biggest problem with no connection at South Yarra is that once the Metro Tunnel opens, inbound Pakenham/Cranbourne trains will no longer stop there, and so Dandenong line passengers can no longer change for a Sandringham train. They'll have to change to a Frankston train (probably at Caulfield or Malvern) then change again at South Yarra.
all these projects presuppose that the State isn't broke, which it is. I mean, the MOST CRITICALLY NEEDED out of all these projects, the Airport Link, has been officially shelved. The SRL is a nice idea in theory but the fact that they've shelved the Airport Link in favour of a certain politician's poorly planned vanity project is 1. insane and 2. reeks of collusion/bribery. Also the fact that the SRL will not run as part of the broader network but instead as a self-contained system is a huge missed opportunity. The fact is that the SRL could've been built for much cheaper and way faster by just connecting up a few lines using the existing Outer Circle railway alignment (which still exists, and in one place 3 lines sit within 1.5km of each other. It's pretty clear that public transport planning has become a theatre for political stunts and short-sighted GADGETBAHN ideas, rather than for sensible, long-sighted and fiscally responsible plans.
@@zoomosis my theory is that they'll add a cranpak stop at hawksburn to allow a change for frankston trains running to Richmond. All of the MATH stations already have 4 platofrms so this one actually has a pretty simple fix and I don't think the lack of an interchange at South Yarra is as big of an issue as people claim.
Honestly if the only outcome of the metro tunnel is that they reconfigure the city loop to be two pairs of directional track instead of the current bidirectional nightmare, that’s enough.
there would need to be a few new tunnel connections for through running to be symmetrical, i think 2 of the highest city commuter traffic lines should run looping, in opposite directions for easy circumferential travel.
@@fishofgold6553 no, as in a pair of tracks that are each unidirectional. Like normal train lines are, one track up, one track down. The city loop is currently configured as four independent bidirectional tracks, with trains running in both directions in all four tunnels (hypothetically, i think one or two tunnels are now unidirectional). I just sort of forgot the word “unidirectional”.
@@murraykitson1436 set aside the fact that tidal flow is really only effective for linear choke point routes with highly periodic traffic, not ring roads with roughly even traffic in both peaks. (City loop traffic direction is based on which line you’re arriving/leaving town on, not whether you are arriving or leaving.) The city loop is not using tidal flow! It never has! Tidal flow is based on the idea that you have more lanes in one direction than the other for each peak, but the city loop is four lanes that don’t interact _at all._ You’re not accomodating more traffic by having more lanes move in one direction, or allowing for breakdowns and overtaking, because trains can’t move between tunnels in normal operation. It’s like - imagine you have four one lane bridges, two in one direction, two in the other. They go to and from (nearly) the same place, but were built as four separate structures. Halfway through the day, all four bridges reverse direction. That’s what the city loop currently does. What I’m asking for is to reconfigure it into a standard four lane bridge. If a car breaks down in one lane, cars behind it can overtake it. Cars don’t have to know which exit they need to take at the other end before they get on the bridge and choose a lane accordingly. You don’t need bizarre traffic flow contraptions at either end to deal with cars that, for half the day, are on the wrong side of the road. Etc.
My understanding is much of the difference between Sydney Metro and Melbourne Metro is down to funding. Sydney has federal funding while Melbourne does not. It's politics again. South Yarra was considered but the cost of alignment against the benefits of that additional cost was considered wasteful.
But we over spent on stupid ego driven station designs above ground - money that could have been spent on a South Yarra station. And of course if we discounted the usual Australian whining of ‘every excuse under the sun as to why we can’t build something’ meanwhile overseas it just gets done.
@@andyrob32592 of the stations have nice aboveground development... The other three and just holes in the ground... I mean they're expensive holes but
@@andyrob3259 compared to the costs of excavation and tunnelling, station architecture is inexpensive. I totally agree that there should've been an interchange at South Yarra, but what you're saying is completely misguided
New platforms at South Yarra for metro tunnel were considered - but the cost at that time for that was an extra $950m. It was deemed to be to expensive given South Yarra was already very well served by public transport, and that money could be better spent on areas of Melbourne with lower transport amenity.
@@emboe001 I get the Dan hating thing, but you must be aware that previous government had planned to extend the line to service a single precinct in Port Melbourne and nothing more and seeing no visible improvement to the network overall? Go for broke on anything else, but at least we have seen the train network improve for the first time since the loop was built.
I get that South Yarra would be costly and it ain't being done. Also I personally wondered with the topography (and proximity to the river) the line is going to be on quite a slope there inappropriate for a platform unless it could dive down significantly earlier than where the portal is placed. And that is where property acquisition might come in to it. These are only my musings. But, I think the desirability for a Sth Yarra station stems from the fact you are removing a significant line from what is currently a busy interchange. Maybe the passengers changing at Sth Yarra aren't particularly high numbers.
And if we had not built ego driven edifices at each of the existing stations then we could have built a perfect interchange. Still it’s Australia - where we never miss a trick to ruin any project by doing it on the cheap. There’s also good transport at State Library and we didn’t need a station there either
@@geotardFisherman’s Bend is actually going to end up as a massive residential area and has no transport - Domain and Flinders St has. What do you think would have made more sense. Building a link to somewhere with no transport or duplication of something existing?
We need an independent body to just plan out the next 100 years of infrastructure. Construction will just happen in the sequence they decide based on population growth planned in areas. The government will just need to commit a certain amount to the projects every budget. This way, there's always a plan so everyone knows what's going on, not just a random project being proposed and cancelled with every change of government. Things are just too disorganised with SRL, Melbourne Metro 2, City Loop Reconfig, Airport Rail, Western Rail Plan all needing to happen, but are clearly not being prioritised over road and freeway infrastructure. The 25 billion being spent on WGT and NEL could easily have covered city loop reconfig and metro 2, allowing almost a complete RER experience in Melbourne, which would have help taken thousands of cars off the road.
Short-term governments shouldn’t be involved in long term decision making like this. Also politicians with interests in fossil fuel and carparking profits shouldn’t have any say on PT infrastructure. It kind of baffles me how governments can be so short sighted.
That requires planning and agreement with politicians. The Metro tunnel would have been up and running now, if the Liberal Govt. had not wasted four years in trying to have the tunnel moved to benefit its developer mates and benefactors. Victoria has removed over 100 level crossings and replaced many old stations mostly in the metro area, something Sydney did not have to find funds for because they removed theirs in the 1930s. This Vic Govt has had to overcome the best part of 100 years of government inaction and neglect of the railways.
Not to mention the Liberal Party under Jeff Kennet literally destroyed the then MET. This led to a neglected network and skills shortage in rail. Add in Metro Trains bullshit diversity quotas they have to meet and you have a perfect shit storm of morons in maintenance and incompetent idiots who work in projects.
Good video, thank you. But it's worth pointing out a few things. A connection at South Yarra would have been nice, but isn't essential, as there are multiple other connection points. The trams connect at Domain (I'm not calling it Anzac), and the trains connect at Flinders st and Melbourne Central. The eastern tunnel entrance was already an engineering challenge, due to quite significant space constraints at the meeting of the Sandringham, Pakenham and Frankston lines. Getting the tunnel to then somehow loop north to South Yarra station, then turn a sharp left again towards St Kilda road just wasn't feasible. Also, I don't think we'll fully see the benefit of the new tunnel until after it opens, as while only a few lines will connect to it, the increased capacity that will become available in the city loop and at Spencer St and Flinders St stations will allow more frequent services on every other line. Once the tunnel is operational, it becomes much easier to do renovations at Richmond and South Yarra, due to 2 tracks no longer being required. South Yarra needs a second entrance for example. I look forward to the benefits of the new tunnel.
Wish we had included Upfield Lane and linked it to Rowvile or to Sandringham Lane, it would have helped with Reinstating the Clifton Hill- North Melbourne Stadion link and having Royal Park as an interchange Stadion, it would have helped a lot more.
The ONLY increase in capacity is in the Northern loop by removing Sunbury trains. No other lines will benefit. See my post for a detailed breakdown of what the new tunnel will achieve compared to what could have been achieved by adjusting the entrances to the existing city loop.
The line was never going to do that complex dance to have a station at South Yarra. Instead, the tunnel was starting much further down the line (that's why so much land was going to be bought from the Jam Factory) and the Dandenong platforms would be to the southwest of the existing station. Since that's so far away, the Sandringham platforms were to be moved south of Toorak Road. A billion dollars to end up with a spaghetti station that wouldn't even be used for interchange that much.
And also on the importance of preserving rail corridors, not abandoning them, such as by placing buildings on them or turning them into cycle/shared paths. Re-activating an abandoned rail corridor is a lot harder than re-activating a preserved one.
I would have liked the metro tunnel to not go via South Yarra but continue under St Kilda Road. Have a stop at Commercial Road for the hospital, another one near St. Kilda junction. Maybe at stop near Williams Rid/Dandenong road, then on to Caulfield for interchange. From Caulfield, express to Chadstone, then express to Monash Uni, then continue under Wellington Road to Rowville and maybe Knox with some stops. :-)
Maybe if South Yarra didn't have those gigantic residential towers encroaching right up to the train corridor, then building a connection at South Yarra would have been feasible. The entry point where it is, seems to be the only cost-practical solution. Thanks, Matthew Guy! Hope your construction mates made a motza.
You touched on something at the end that is consistent with the views of the previous NSW Government being that all large transport projects must support growth, predominantly housing. They should also include TOD and medium to high density around stations. This is particularly the case on the metro to the WSA which has TODs in the middle of paddocks in outer western Sydney. Spending billions just to save existing commuters/drivers 5 minutes on a peak hour commute is no long sustainable.
The word previous was unnecessary, the new NSW State government has those very same beliefs. They have made it abundantly clear that TOD is the way forward.
Make the Flemington racecourse and Showgrounds normal stations that would be awesome, lots of people would use it. Yeah I know there’s no more capacity on the Craigieburn line and city loop to accommodate it and access issues being private property, but one can dream
I should also add the Pakenham & Cranbourne lines will run express between Caulfield & Anzac. So anyone between Caulfield and South Yarra will have to catch the train to Caulfield and then backtrack to Anzac. The Cranbourne Line will also end at Sunshine. This will allow for Sunbury/Pakenham line to run express between Sunshine & Arden stopping only at Footscray
I think when the Suburban Rail Loop is open around 2035 this will free up a lot of space on trains. A lot of people going into the city to get on another line will be able to just use the SRL. Whit the Pakenham line off the City loop gives way to a lot more from others lines like Frankston.
Lol, it's very unlikely there will ever be a finished SRL, and certainly not by 2035. That's only 12 years away, Victoria is now heaving with generational debt and there's no way the next government doesn't just drop the project.
From 2025, services will cease to stop at Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, Richmond, and South Yarra stations due to the opening of the Metro Tunnel.
@@shootingskelly17exactly, the problem will be just if you're stopping at Flagstaff Southern cross or parliament, but I guess it should be a very easy change once in the city
Pakenham trains will stop at Anzac, the town hall (which is basically Flinders), state library (which is Melbourne Central), Parkville, then Arden, then Footscray etc.
The Big Build should have involved less new roads and more more spent on public transport. As a cyclist, I get to ride under the new roads as they are being built. It feels like just a bunch of ugly suspended roads. When I think about how much is being spent, the lost opportunities gall me.
@@cabbagepatch8947 The West Gate “Tunnel” is huge money guzzler which has a tonne of suspended road directing cars and trucks into places like the inner northern suburbs which have previously not been car-centric. It will also take huge trucks to the Port, which means they’re actively ripping up freight train lines to do that. Same with widening Wurundjeri Way, which is where there used to be train lines that they’re ripping out to widen the freeway. They’re talking about the need to increase the percentage of rail freight while actively ripping out rail lines! Southern Cross could have also used the space for an extra platform with two lines, like they did with platform 15/16. They’re spending billions on a project that will just encourage more cars on the roads, particularly in places where people currently majority use public transport. Instead that money could’ve been used to improve rail freight, and bring good public transport to the Western suburbs, and trams to the inner west and north
i don't agree that these downsides are valid. it doesn't need to be bundled. it works just fine on its own. obviously, i am very in favour of all projects that might connect with it Airport Rail Melton and Wyndham Vale Electrification South Yarra Tunnel Station and the big one, the Suburban Rail loop, which would be the biggest relief of capacity for the whole network.
Nice video mate! Only problem with connecting the metro tunnel to more communities is that the HCMT’s would need to get the certification to run on those lines which they currently dont As for the airport rail link and the regional extensions I could see those entering the loop, but I highly doubt we’ll see that any time soon Great video keep the work up
The airport line was supposed to run via the Metro Tunnel, which it would have been able to do as it would have interchanged onto the Sunbury line at Albion. I do hope it still happens, as of all the projects an airport rail line was one of the most neccessary. As for the regional extensions, Melton & Wyndham Vale I can see happening as both of those lines are very busy. The thing that worries me though is Sunshine, the RRL has segregated those lines right into Southern Cross which makes me wonder how you get it onto the Metro Lines (which then creates another problem of that line becoming very busy with 4 lines theoretically being on it). And, does it then render RRL useless, which would be a shame.
Not having a South Yarra station was a big missed opportunity. However passengers for Frankston can change at Caulfield but that doesnt help Sandringham. Consideration needs to also be given to extending the Frankston, Cranbourne and Pakenham lines.
The only realistic way a South Yarra connection could have worked is by making an underground station below south Yarra that connects to the already existing above ground area. So it would stay in the tunnel
Interesting video. Thanks for sharing. It is a pity that the Airport Rail Link has been delayed. this is really needed considering that we have a major airport here. Even the Airport West tram line could be extended to cater for airport passengers, which more likely could be done without too much expense. I agree that South Yarra would be better to be included on the Metro Rail Tunnel lines, which would make it possible for passengers to have two access train routes through the city. Love to see Melton and Wyndham lines electrified along with the Stony Point line from Frankston.
@@RGC198 Why? That population is miniscule compared to Melton, Wyndhamvale and Tarneit. Just a couple of passing loops will suffice for the Stony Point Line.
The problem of Melbourne railway network is mainly focus on moving people in and out of CBD, but the modern metro network such as Hong Kong MTR, it aims to help moving people around the whole metro area.
Great video. And you're right, definitely a missed opportunity, but it goes further. Sydney has done a great job at not just isolating lines, but they see the importance of all modes of public transport working together. For example, the new metro linking with trains at Chatswood at the Eastern end, and frequent bus connections at stations to connect the growing area.
Personally the biggest problem is getting to the train station. It's a 30 minute (2.5kms) walk from my house across roads with heavy traffic, busses are infrequent (not much faster than walking) and forget about driving because there's nowhere to park. What will really help potential commuters like me are networks of dedicated cycling/scooter paths leading to the train station. Otherwise all those new rail lines are meaningless because I can't easily get to the station.
Building a station at South Yarra would have been incredibly costly and impractical, as the train needs to dive a significant depth to reach Anzac station, as well as the location of South Yarra meaning construction would impact several properties in the area. At the end of the day it isn't the biggest loss, as the Sandringham Line and South Yarra itself are very well connected to the city and to Anzac station, the latter being served by the mentioned 58 tram route.
God Australians are backward. Totally and utter backward. No, building a station would NOT have been impossible. Or impractical. What you think we are the only city in the world that would have deep stations. Deep stations also means YOU DON’T NEED to buy the properties above. Oh and we’ve had lifts and escalators for quite a few decades. And no metro overs was a would have done such a dumb mistake of not building such an interchange. Maybe spending less on ego designed station complexes and that money could have actually been put towards building actual stations.
So instead we over spend on the other stations on ego driven station buildings? And don’t do something that wouldn’t have been missed overseas. I love the excuses ‘oh they can just get on somewhere else’. Geez no wonder we have sht rail in Australia. Cheap half a~~d planning.
Sure "Anzac is connected by the 58 tram route" - I'm just going to sit wait for 20 min, then hop on the 58.. another 30 min doddle down to Anzac... It should all be about moving the greatest number of people from the most highly densely populated areas as fast as possible - only *that* will attract people onto public transport. cheers
Hi, if possible could you please make a video discussing what if we have trenched and covered 4 lane road from Power St - Punt Rd - Hoddle St- Brunswick Rd connecting M1, M2 and M3. These are busiest roads in Melbourne. Above roads, beautiful parks, bike lanes, and open spaces can be created. It is only 11 km but it will truely transform the city.
Could also extend 4km from Power St to Port Melbourne Beach. Benefits of starting from there would make it efficient for trucks to unload excavated land to reclaim land for the beach
I think it's important to leave airport express services as express, if they went Spencer > Sunshine > HighPoint (something that was once on the cards) > Tulla...then you run the risk of having a slow service. We need to get our corp travellers direct from airport to office in under 30mins. So please please please I hope the airport train station is an underground one...not some shoddy long gangway walk towards T4 to access above rail. If it takes more then 10mins to walk from gate to train...I'd just continue to organise an Uber
Well I hope that the Airport Service is not built. Feel free if you cannot be bothered to walk from T4 to carry on using Uber. Geez some walk further from their Car parks. Spending $13 Billion on a rail link to the Airport. N O T H A N K S !!!
If the SRL is supposed to include a section between the Airport and Broadmeadows Station anyway then they need to just build that connection first as its own thing, only instead of an interchange, extend it to branch off of the Craigieburn line. Honestly, when it used to be the Broadmeadows line and they wanted to extend out to Craigieburn, they should've tacked that part onto the Upfield line instead and built the Airport link at the same time. So the Broadmeadows line would become the Airport line, and the Upfield line become the Craigieburn line.
I can see sense in that. However, First of all though we would need to remove all V/Line services from the Broadmeadows corridor. Secondly the level crossings will need to be removed. Still have the Broadmeadows Corridor going to Craigieburn.
Thanks for the video. On the topic of expanding suburbs and the recent discussion on building up not out, I would like to see the 64 tram extended to run through Centre Rd, providing East Bentleigh with a nice accessible route to the city (modern low floor trams and platforms). I’m keen to hear your thoughts?
I’m keen for tram route extensions of any kind! And yes I’ve had the same thought about extending that route in that direction. The slow speed of the tram would be an issue (it would take ages to get from East Bentleigh to the city) but there are some changes that can be made to somewhat resolve that.
Thanks for you reply. I was thinking that more trams would be added so existing services would continue. People on the outer end could go towards Bentleigh train station and change (as the tram would stop in front of it). Or if the line was extended all the way to Clayton train station then this would bring more options. This tram line has only really been possible since the lowering of Bentleigh station in 2016. There is a bus every 20mins. However, I believe a tram every 10min would charge buying decisions as trams are more comfortable, accessible, reliable, and charming. You are far less likely to miss out (full or canceled bus). Plus it shows a high level of commitment to the route. Do you see any holes in the idea? Btw, interesting side note: trams pollute less than electric busses, as they don’t produce tyre dust.
@@mjcats2011Trams are designed to fit where cars and trucks fit. Plus, it turn out trams on tracks are better at negotiating the road than very large trucks (that we see regularly). If you’re referring to all the parking etc on either side, well, ideally most/all of that would be removed and turned into: public space, turning lanes, etc. There is plenty of parking that people choose not to use. They’d rather hold up traffic and take far too long to parallel park. In fact those two things (adding turning lanes and no parallel parking) would 2-3x traffic flow during busy times. And come on. Trams are just plain lovely. Sooo many more people would use them than do buses. And more people would happily buy in East Bentleigh - provided they could catch a quick tram to Bentleigh station - then off to the city.
@WhyWouldYouDrawThat Sorry but that is a silly idea. Centre Road is basically 1 lane from Bentleigh Station to East Boundary Road. More people use them than Buses because the bus network is operated by flimsy dirt cheap buses on really poor frequencies.
I wonder if the undistinguished Hawksburn Station can be used as a junction station, I suspect many train won’t stop there, bit like East Richmond Station which only gets the Alamein trains.
interesting video, however you have missed some points, if passengers on the Packenham line or Cranbourne line need to access South Yarra or Richmond, they can change trains at Caulfield, as you would currently if you need to change for Sandringham/Belgrave Lilydale Lines through Richmond. As stated by some below, it was prohibitively expensive to link to South Yarra Station. Secondly , while Sydney Metro may have a broader plan, that is because they lack Trams to suburbs (which they had years ago just as good of a network as Melbourne but being car bias they decided to rip them all out. Then it cost them Billions to relay them again in the CBD and did not have the documentation where existing essential cables were laid out in the CBD, resulting significant delays
Dont forget ordering trams with fixed bogies so that the arches crack when navigating curves... Sydney is able to focus on its fantastic metro lines because they already have their suburban train system in order with several cross-town connections and all day 15 min frequency.
Sth yarra connection to the Metro tunnel is not needed for that reason (access to Sth Yarra from far and beyond).. though sure.. that would be an added benefit. The main reason it is needed is to get people living in the densely populated Sth Yarra quickly into the city and beyond to the University. Cheers
They were already going under south yarra to connect to annzac, so they could have added a underground station at south yarra and not mess with the rest of the lines. I use the sandringham transfer quite often. Now I have to switch to the frankston line then switch again, makes it inconvenient for me. Also my workplace is near Flagstaff, so now I have to get off at melb central and take the tram adding extra time to my commute. Overall great project even tho it makes things inconvenient for me.
Pretty much all of the recent prime ministers over the last 4 decades are located in sydney... this is why sydney gets so much more infrastructure funding.
Maate. IA acts on what is sent to them from the States. NSW lodges their Metro. Did Victoria do that, no. They asked for $10 Billion extra for that NE link and extra funding for freeways. I wish people would get off this stupid conspiracy theory.
No they do not. It is what the States put forward to Infrastructure Australia. NSW put forward Metro. Victoria, the effing NE Link, Westgate Tunnel and the SRL.
Town Hall and State library are "genuine" new stations. What is being built at each of these is similar if not larger than the scope of stations like ANZAC and Melbourne Central including new station boxes, platforms etc. If they were adding platforms at FSS I wouldnt consider them new but these are new station boxes under the ground, albeit ones that dont provide any new coverage.
No different than any new stations ffs. Overseas they build new stations adjacent to existing stations, they don’t rename them something totally different just to confuse the issue
@@xr6lad Well these sort of are new stations. The "connection" to Town Hall from FSS for example will be a tunnel from Campbell arcade. Apparently emergency services requested that the names be different. Some metros overseas follow this convention but I really dont mind either and doubt itll be an issue when the line opens.
The problem is the change of direction in the loop. It is fully two hours every day where people can't get from Central to Southern Cross. It is the stupidest thing ever. Why that's allowed to continue is beyond me
I worked on the CYP Metro project as an engineer during excavation. After working in mines around the world. I've never seen underground excavations on the the state library and town hall stations. Not the most economical way to build a subway for sure
Yeah they were forced to dig them with roadheaders. Original plan was to cut and cover all the way up Swanston Street but people were.... Not happy about that
Thank you writting this up, I think new South to North link tunnel is better for people who dont want go into City...WE only got big problem is Airport Link is big mess. Sunshine hub station should be scraped. .Build new tunnel under Melbourne airport link connect to Broadmeadows line and Sunbury Line much easier to have both Metro and Express train either way from Southren Cross Station . Sunshine hub is big conguestion of Vline from Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo and Metro train from Sunbury.
with the electrification of Melton line that could come into the new tunnel and the Wyndhamvale train could follow the new tunnel or pick up a line to southern cross
In terms of providing new capacity through the CBD, the only lines that I can see that it does this for are the Upfield, Craigieburn and Sunbury lines given that with the Sunbury Line no longer using the Northern Loop tunnel, there will be one less line using that track. In terms of the Clifton Hill and Burnley loop lines, it makes no impact on them at all. As for the Caulfield group, the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines already have exclusive use of that loop tunnel given the Frankston line runs cross city. The Sandringham Line already has its own isolated pair of tracks in and out of Flinders Street to platforms 12 and 13 so no capacity gains there either. All in all, it is really only the three lines currently using the Northern Loop in the City Loop that gain extra capacity from this project.
12 and 13 will be left unused because Frankston Trains will use 6 and 7 and the cross city Sandy Werribee/Williamstown will use 8 and 9 as Cranbourne and Pakenham Trains will not longer call at Flinders Street.
Recently had the legitimate pleasure of experiencing Beijing’s subway system and holy hell - that thing is incredible; Trains run every ~5 minutes on a line and one-way trips cost me like $0.65 AU! Rather than a wheel-and-spoke design that we currently have here in Melbourne, it’s more akin to a spiderweb, with lots of cross-overs between lines. Something we will hopefully work towards with the outer loop and further extensions, to accommodate our ever-increasing population.
Melbourne's transport systems overall, while no where near perfect, are absolutely world class and I hope further projects will carry it into the future.
The tunnel should have been extended to Caulfield and 3 lines to Dandenong. This would have given 6 tracks to Caulfield freeing up the local lines for Frankston trains, freight and V/Line. Then they could have had true CBTC running between Dandenong and Sunshine for HCMT trains. A third line to Dandenong could have been for Vline and freight. Frankston trains could have use the Caulfield local lines for expresses from Flinders st to Cheltenham/Mordialloc.
The metro tunnel was originally meant to end at Caulfield with an interchange at Balaklava station on the Sandringham line and 4 station in total along st kilda road between Carlisle Street and Flinders Street.
Yes what a waste of money having CBTC installed outside of the Core. It makes absolutely no sense and one of the reasons why Melbourne will fall further behind Sydney in Rail Transit.
A possible missed opportunity for the Sydney Metro is the provision for a station between Chatswood and Crowsnest near the intersection of the Gore Hill Freeway and the Pacific Highway to service Lane Cove , with its many blocks of flats . An entrance tunnel off Longueville Rd would make it more accessible for passengers. The existing Artarmon station is some considerable distance away , approximately 2 kilometres, although the route is virtually parallel . This suggestion is not that outlandish when you consider that there was a proposal to incorporate a station at West Lindfield to service the UTS campus in the planning stages of the then Epping to Chatswood railway , which is now part of the metro . This proposal was abandoned due to the added cost versus potential patronage . I absolutely agree with the comment in this video about the " new " stations in Melbourne CBD which really are virtually just interchange stations - extentions of existing ones , rather than covering new ground . I can certainly appreciate the necessity of their location , and the associated underground pedestrian links should be brilliant ! In Sydney , it is possible to walk several blocks without setting foot on the street , in several locations .
@@OldAussieAds one of the downsides of having a lot of stations on any given line is that ,by stopping at every station , the trip takes considerably longer . I recently caught a Blue Mountains express to Strathfield from Central , and was staggered by just how quick this trip was compared with the normal suburban trains . I cannot see how cannibalizing the Bankstown line for metro running will improve trip times due to the high number of stations . With conventional trains , express runs are possible , however it would appear to be "all stations " operation only ,due to the inflexible nature of the metro system . The funds for this conversion would be far better spent on the western Sydney Metro project !
They need to connect the Werribee and Wyndham Vale lines like they said they were going to they need almost no track to do this and it would cost very little. New station to service Harpley estate area would be good.
I totally agree with you about the South Yarra issue. It means that anyone coming from the Pakenham/Cranbourne line will have to change trains not once, but twice if they're going on a Sandringham train. So annoying.
It would be possible to change only at Town Hall/Flinders St. Not as fast as changing at South Yarra would have been, but a single change is possible with a little more travel time
While annoying yes. As someone from the west (and north) - most of the infrastructure sits in the SE, there are options for people in the area,Trams and trains. In the west there is often no infrastructure - there is one tram that doesn't even go into the CBD, and another that meanders about, and it's great to get to a mall - if that is your thing, but super inefficient to get to work closer to the city. The train lines are sparse and service very little area. Most of the money is spent and the project ideas are about facilitating the south east. I mean, how will they ever get to the airport? Most people in the west and north can hardly get to work on PT.
@@cabbagepatch8947 Our current radial rail network is very problematic and doesn't serve Melbourne's needs at all well since only 10% of people work in the city. Anything which relieves the need for rail users to have to go into the city to get anywhere else will help. Melbourne's one of the last city rail networks in the world to be stuck with this problem.
Mostly agree, however the melton and Wyndham lines also have a significant regional rail presence that is not going to change with electrification. The Ballarat and Geelong services run every half an hour on these lines. Compared to Pakenham and Sunbury which has one regional service each, with less frequency. It further complicates it. Honestly both Melton and Wyndham should have a shuttle electric train service to sunshine. Then passengers can get on the very frequent metro tunnel. A stop gap solution until much greater investment.
That stop gap solution requires a great deal of engineering work at Sunshine as regards to terminating facilities. Melton and Wyndhamvale with quadding the section of track from Sunshine Junction to Deer Park Junction should been included in the Melbourne Metro Project.
I understand your argument about wasted opportunities, but those would add cost. Scope creep could cause the whole project to get shelved. At least this way it gets done 🤷♀️
I'll be curious to know the floor traffic at Arden, currently there is nothing there,no housing,some old factories, plenty of bike parking and a bus stop but invisible car spots (probably designed that way) Kensington, Macaulay,North Melbourne stations and a tram cater to the current population. It would be dead on the weekend and night time. And such a huge facade. As a taxpayer/commuter I certainly hope it's been worth it. Also Anzac traffic will be interesting to watch.
I'm sad there's no metro tunnel station near me. I'm right next to South Yarra station but could really use that route specifically. They should have at least built a station in the Jam Factory shopping centre redevelopment.
I would like to see Cityloop upgraded from 4 platforms to 6 platforms (adding 2 new tracks) and then increase capacity between Footscray and Burnley by building an underground thoroughfare that still connects with existing stations along the way including North Melbourne, Southern Cross, Flinders Street, and Richmond, (South Kensington and East Richmond don't need to be included) this way it can free up capacity on Platform 4 of the Cityloop for Glen Waverley and Alamein services by transferring Lilydale and Belgrave lines to an alternative, and also if Melton and/or Wyndham Vale lines ever get electrified, they can use the new platform 5 on the Cityloop (platform 6 would be used for any services from the east that goes through Richmond this way if someone wants to get to Richmond from the Cityloop, they just get a train from an even numbered platform)
It absolutely absurd not having Sth yarra station and Sth yarra precinct linked to this project. Everyone who lives in this great city knows it. Just as the argument "you'd need to spend billions to go deep under the current Sth yarra station" to make it work - is equally as absurd. As it stands now, coming out of Sth yarra station across Toorak Rd you could hit a golf ball into the opening of where the new line dives under ground. It really is *that* close. People are going to stand on that 58 tram stop look across the road and watch these new trains dive under ground (as they head to the centre of the city in less than 5 min) and think what a ridiculous planning balls up - and think of Daniel Andrews screw ups every single day, for the rest of their lives. Until this mess is fixed up. What ever happened to the idea of building a *new* station (with multiple pedestrian entry points into Chapel St and Jam Factory where all the shops etc are) just before where the new line dives under and connecting *that* to the existing Sth yarra Station *above* ground (on top of the current empty space above the rail line?) With rapid express walkways etc like they have in airports for a fraction of the costs? Be cheaper than some of the level crossing removals. Lots have new stations that have been built/put "up" or the dwelling built above a line cut deep in a cutting (the new station at Union comes to mind) with the level crossing removal project. So why not a Station like this near chapel St? And the "cutting" is already there! It's a farce not developing and connecting this highly densely populated and visited area into this project. From *either* direction (Even the Sth East)...A total farce. The decision to not link Sth yarra was always political. It would have been fabulous to have a new way to get on off this wonderful new Metro Tunnel line from this area out to the university and Northern Melbourne areas (and beyond) to airport etc *quickly* from the dynamic Chapel St precinct. It's a total botched opportunity the way it has been done.
Update: Melbourne Airport rail link has been green lit by Federal Infrastructure review. Negotiations with MLB airport continue on whether rail will be sky rail or tunnel.
4 tracks is technically the truth, but what he didnt mention is that all the groups of lines (Clifton Hill, Caulfield, and the northern group travel on their own set of tracks.
We need density in Melbourne to make new railway lines and stations make sense. The we need turn-up-and-go frequencies. Waiting more than 10 minutes for a train in a city of 4million plus is embarrassing.
Given that there still isn’t funding for electrifying Melton/Wyndham Vale, and the politics of what route the Airport line should follow were still running well into the construction phase of the Metro Tunnel, waiting for those things would have meant delaying the Metro Tunnel, which, given the politics, might have meant it never being built. So no, I don’t agree with you that they should have planned for everything at once. It seems clear there will be no shortage of trains to put in the tunnel from the west, and anyway there is a turnback at South Kensington.
I've grown up in Melbourne and once governments gave thought to the future. But the past 30 years state governments have become short-sighted and very unintelligent. I've seen numerous roads built with viewing and drainage, only to be ripped up a few years later for lanes to be added. We are governed by idiots in this city. It's very frustrating and annoying.
100% correct. Melbourne has the worst transport "planning" (or lack thereof) of any Australian capital city. The political culture in this state is beyond broken. Governments here seem to take pleasure in blowing up Melbourne's future if it means they can reward their mates and inflict humiliation on their political opponents.
The South Yarra station option was done to death, coming in on the other side of the debate is hardly revolutionary. As to the electrification of the Ballarat line. For comfort the velocity is a better train, that aside, the loop changes direction in the middle of the day. You commute from Melton to all Eastern services in the morning without going through the loop. Similarly eastern services come to southern cross without the loop at night. For us the biggest improvement would be the building of the airport link as proposed. We now have good tracks from southern cross to Ballarat. The biggest improvement to our experience would be upgrading some of the metro lines. Some of them are in a bit of a mess.
Hot take: The metro tunnel should continue south from Anzac to a new underground station at St Kilda (somewhere near the old station or between Acland and Fitzroy Street), then an interchange at Balaclava, and then continuing to the above-ground lines at Caulfield. Anyone else?
If anything, this entire project should have been part of a larger rapid transit project similar to Sydney Metro instead of having two suburban connections on either end.
Infrastructure in Melbourne is a bit behind considering the population growth. This is probably the first line they have opened in 50 years. They need lines going to the outter suburbs with fast regular train services. Sydney already has a fast train network with multiple lines on all routes. I think one of the main benefits of the metro is it is a new train system with driverless trains that turn up every few minutes. More of the exisiting network could possibly be converted as well. Driverless trains is probably the way to go
@@74_pelicans It really doesn't. There are huge swathes of suburbs that are not served by rail in the South East and North West and some of our fastest growing suburbs are served by V/Line.
When I was a little kid in 1981, and Melbourne's population was 2.7 million, off-peak trains came by Sunshine once every 20 minutes. Now it's 2023 and the population of Melbourne has doubled and trains still stop at Sunshine - a major precinct and transport interchange - once every 20 minutes. That says it all really. For all the self-conscious fuss over the "iconic" trams, Melbourne is addicted to cars & for good reason, you can't survive without one in most of the city.
Electrification to Melton and Wyndham Vale will see no improvement on the network. All of of V/Line's rolling stock is diesel, so the only way they would benefit is by building new rolling stock that runs purely electric at a hefty price to the taxpayer. Alternatively you could give the proposed Melton and Wyndham Vale lines to Metro to run their electric fleet, but then you run into additional issues with V/Line services being banked up behind late-running Metro services. Take one look at punctuality along the Gippsland V/Line and you'll immediately realise this will not improve travel times. You want to improve services to Melton and Wyndham Vale? Separated tracks for V/Line services before they reach Sunshine and complete track duplication from Geelong to Warrnambool.
So its alright to spend Billions on Airport and SRL, but not electrify Melton and Wyndhamvale. Of course it will improve the network. Far more trains can be run by quadding and electrifying. Yes the WRP was about providing extra tracks on that corridor and it should be done before any Train to the Airport.
Even more horrendous is ''Southern Cross'' station. It used to be ''Spencer Street'' station but a Labor party pollie decided to change it for whatever reason.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a glance at the business case before mentioning the lack of a south yarra connection as a "missed opportunity". The reasons are articulated clearly from what I've seen - engineering issues, huge cost increase and it is a station that is already well serviced by transport. Plus, you missed the biggest issue with the project; it is decades overdue. Please consider making your future videos a little more objective.
I think it certainly was a missed opportunity sure, but agree with not building it as it was a billion dollars extra to build a station that was already well-served. They did add provision for it being built in the future though.
Not building a station at South Yarra was a HUGE missed opportunity. The Stations at 'Town Hall' and 'State Library' are really just the north bound platform extensions of Flinders Street and Melbourne Central. It's totally ridiculous to have stations that are that close to each other for the sake of being north/south east/west. Clearly they've never been to London or Singapore where junction stations with similar layouts are the same name with each having reasonable passage ways linking north and east bound platforms. Green Park in London as an example. To give them different names makes it too confusing. Imagine tapping in at 'State Library, riding the train around, changing and then coming back to tap out at Melbourne Central. Just stupid.
It was a value for money equation. Provision was made for it to be added later if someone wants to do it. Hard to explain why South Yarra needed another $950m for metro tunnel platforms when outer metro citizens just have a shitty bus service. Priorities.
The Victorian Government always has an issue with building projects on current problems and not future ones. By the time the project is completed, it's already outdated.
I wish someone would actually explain in detail what it is about the current city loop that limits its capacity so much. I find it hard to believe that the loop is physically not capable of having trains go through it more often than every 20 minutes at 9pm on a Friday. I want more than just a vague promise from all this Metro Tunnel marketing malarky. I want hard numbers, eg guarenteed Upfield trains every 10 mins or less until midnight. That would actually make the line useful rather than forcing me to take a tram or even just walk becayse I can’t be arsed waiting at a train station.
each city loop tunnel is a single track railroad, and each tunnel access has rail switches between different main rail corridors, these are estimated to use a minute to switch and clear the signal while the city loop's fixed block signal can only do at most 2-3 minutes per service, and then the major junctions (richmond, flinders street, north melbourne and southern cross) are meant to be operating in low speed, and heck lot of rail switching process, platform re-allocations, just to provide sort of service variations(like a frankston service terminates at flinders street and change service to racecourse line, or sunbury service not getting through the loop and changed into frankston service) These always cause heavy traffics, delays, sudden cancel of service and operation complexity, and overall, less peak hour capacity and service reliability. The best example is the Northern group(Sunbury, Cragieburn, Upfield), they do suffer the worst signal capacity in the peak hour and could sometimes delayed/cancelled without notice, just because the junctions and the loop can't take too much trains thus bottle-necked he whole traffic the metro tunnel could nearly physically separate those junctions and switches entirely, and a moving block signalling under double track arrangement could keep the theoretical capacity way denser and faster than a single loop track with fixed block signalling under its better train distancing nature while track from south kensington to sunbury and south yarra to caufield do still shared with V/line occasionally after re-merging to the existing track, it could still freed up a lot of capacity, not only those merged lines, but other services as well, as there's less shared platform and less traffic in the junction in order to make other services be faster and much straightforward and more services if needed. also, the 10 minute off-peak is always feasible in general in tcurrent system, and it's more or less about the business case do worth operating it or not a train operation, track maintenance and train staff do have its running costs, if more passengers do commute off-peak frequently, and workers union won't make any objection for more operation workload, then PTV will more or less happy to make more frequent services even running only with shorter set of train.
Nothing will change in Melton while it remains a Safe Labour Seat with a representative parachuted in from outside the electorate who votes how he's told to and doesn't give a damn about the issues in the region. Those in government won't do the upgrades needed to most of the major roads, the rail, the freeway, or build the hospital that's been needed out here for Decades - last election that was promised 'after the next election', meaning nothing happening till 2025/26 at the earliest. Another question to ask about all the development going on, "What happed to all the 'Green Wedge' reserves?" There were protests in the '80's that resulted in large swathes of land that was then outside suburbia, that was reserved to be the 'lungs of Melbourne' and was NEVER meant to get surburban development. A lot of those areas are places where existing land owners are being taxed off thier land thanks to re-zoning, and replaced by these new suburbs.
A line branching off the tunnel, near Melbourne University, then turning and running along Princes St and Alexandra Pde to the Eastern Freeway. Then along the Eastern Freeway to Doncaster. This could finally give Doncaster a rail service. Through run it with the Sandringham line, if possible.
Why give to us when we need $13 Billion to build a spur to the Airport? I wouldn't give it to us either. Planning for Public Transport in this state is absolutely dismal. In any case the Sydney Metro has been entirely funded by the State of NSW.
It's easier to plan ahead in Sydney because both sides of politics in NSW have supported building rail infrastructure when in govt. However, in Melbourne, the Vic Liberals are anti-rail. Remember, they won office in 2010 promising to build the Metro tunnel and then reneged on the project once they got in. One of the main reasons why they ended-up a one-term govt.
No they did not renege straight away. Ballieu was prepared to build it. But the crazy right of the Liberal Party undermined him in forced him out and replaced him with dopey Denis Napthine. Who replaced the sound Melbourne Metro with the complete idiotic Melbourne Rail Link. An absolute farce.
the vic libs wanted funding for the metro tunnel but the fed libs refused and would only support the east west link. abbott poisoned victorian politics from canberra.
That is so true, the Metro tunnel should be up and running by now.
The Liberal State Govt. when in power, tried to have route redrawn to benefit its developer mates and terminating it at Southern Cross. Which would have just moved the choke point to that station.
@arlton It was because of political infighting and the Liberal Party moving to the right. Ballieu was supportive of the Melbourne Metro but Kroger and his Christian right cronies undermined Ballieu and put Denis Napthine in.
@@mjcats2011
OK, but Guy tried to have it rerouted.
Something I heard from a metro presentation back in 2018 was that if all of the train lines represented the central nervous system of a human body, the city loop is the heart which is currently clogged, so freeing up the heart is the immediate concern for all future rail projects.
Once the heart is clear we can focus efforts on everything else, like the airport link and the Suburban Rail Loop (SRL).
The airport link is due to restart construction in the short term. It hasn’t been cancelled…
And the south eastern point of the SRL has started construction.
Whilst having a connection at South Yarra could’ve been ideal, realistically it only serves 3 lines and all of those go flinders which has all lines anyway where you can change to use the metro tunnel…
Side note, Wyndham hasn’t been axed as new suburbs and the new stadium precinct that’s being constructed there, runs over the existing train line and a new station will be built as part of the project, that Line will ultimately connect to Werribee and by 2050 not be a vline service but reconfigured into the rest of the normal metro stations. Werribee also has connections to its own line and will have a connection to the western point of the SRL.
THEN there’s the metro 2 tunnel which is still in the planning stages which will connect the Mernda and Werribee lines up, taking them out of the city loop adding newly constructed connections at Flagstaff, Southern Cross and Newport with brand new stations at Fitzroy and Fisherman’s Bend.
Theres heaps of projects on the horizon but the Metro tunnel is honestly the first thing that needed to happen…
We can’t just keep widening the Monash and Western Ring Road, public transport needed a complete overhaul
> The airport link is due to restart construction in the short term. It hasn’t been cancelled…
It's been officially shelved. That means that there are no current plans to restart it.
Metro 2, I hope, will get the conversation about a line to Doncaster going again
I suspect the biggest problem with no connection at South Yarra is that once the Metro Tunnel opens, inbound Pakenham/Cranbourne trains will no longer stop there, and so Dandenong line passengers can no longer change for a Sandringham train. They'll have to change to a Frankston train (probably at Caulfield or Malvern) then change again at South Yarra.
all these projects presuppose that the State isn't broke, which it is. I mean, the MOST CRITICALLY NEEDED out of all these projects, the Airport Link, has been officially shelved. The SRL is a nice idea in theory but the fact that they've shelved the Airport Link in favour of a certain politician's poorly planned vanity project is 1. insane and 2. reeks of collusion/bribery. Also the fact that the SRL will not run as part of the broader network but instead as a self-contained system is a huge missed opportunity. The fact is that the SRL could've been built for much cheaper and way faster by just connecting up a few lines using the existing Outer Circle railway alignment (which still exists, and in one place 3 lines sit within 1.5km of each other. It's pretty clear that public transport planning has become a theatre for political stunts and short-sighted GADGETBAHN ideas, rather than for sensible, long-sighted and fiscally responsible plans.
@@zoomosis my theory is that they'll add a cranpak stop at hawksburn to allow a change for frankston trains running to Richmond. All of the MATH stations already have 4 platofrms so this one actually has a pretty simple fix and I don't think the lack of an interchange at South Yarra is as big of an issue as people claim.
Honestly if the only outcome of the metro tunnel is that they reconfigure the city loop to be two pairs of directional track instead of the current bidirectional nightmare, that’s enough.
there would need to be a few new tunnel connections for through running to be symmetrical, i think 2 of the highest city commuter traffic lines should run looping, in opposite directions for easy circumferential travel.
What do you mean by "two pairs of *directional* track"? Did you mean "*bi*directional"?
@@fishofgold6553 no, as in a pair of tracks that are each unidirectional. Like normal train lines are, one track up, one track down. The city loop is currently configured as four independent bidirectional tracks, with trains running in both directions in all four tunnels (hypothetically, i think one or two tunnels are now unidirectional). I just sort of forgot the word “unidirectional”.
" Tidal flow " is a compromise which realises maximum efficiency from the available capacity , and is also used on the certain roads .
@@murraykitson1436 set aside the fact that tidal flow is really only effective for linear choke point routes with highly periodic traffic, not ring roads with roughly even traffic in both peaks. (City loop traffic direction is based on which line you’re arriving/leaving town on, not whether you are arriving or leaving.)
The city loop is not using tidal flow! It never has! Tidal flow is based on the idea that you have more lanes in one direction than the other for each peak, but the city loop is four lanes that don’t interact _at all._ You’re not accomodating more traffic by having more lanes move in one direction, or allowing for breakdowns and overtaking, because trains can’t move between tunnels in normal operation.
It’s like - imagine you have four one lane bridges, two in one direction, two in the other. They go to and from (nearly) the same place, but were built as four separate structures. Halfway through the day, all four bridges reverse direction. That’s what the city loop currently does.
What I’m asking for is to reconfigure it into a standard four lane bridge. If a car breaks down in one lane, cars behind it can overtake it. Cars don’t have to know which exit they need to take at the other end before they get on the bridge and choose a lane accordingly. You don’t need bizarre traffic flow contraptions at either end to deal with cars that, for half the day, are on the wrong side of the road. Etc.
My understanding is much of the difference between Sydney Metro and Melbourne Metro is down to funding. Sydney has federal funding while Melbourne does not. It's politics again. South Yarra was considered but the cost of alignment against the benefits of that additional cost was considered wasteful.
But we over spent on stupid ego driven station designs above ground - money that could have been spent on a South Yarra station. And of course if we discounted the usual Australian whining of ‘every excuse under the sun as to why we can’t build something’ meanwhile overseas it just gets done.
@@andyrob3259I have no idea where you got any of that from...
@@andyrob32592 of the stations have nice aboveground development... The other three and just holes in the ground... I mean they're expensive holes but
@@andyrob3259 compared to the costs of excavation and tunnelling, station architecture is inexpensive. I totally agree that there should've been an interchange at South Yarra, but what you're saying is completely misguided
Only the Western Airport Metro, all other lines didn't have federal funding I believe.
New platforms at South Yarra for metro tunnel were considered - but the cost at that time for that was an extra $950m. It was deemed to be to expensive given South Yarra was already very well served by public transport, and that money could be better spent on areas of Melbourne with lower transport amenity.
And a 1 billion dollar Dan Andrews estimate ends up being a 5 billion one.
@@emboe001 I get the Dan hating thing, but you must be aware that previous government had planned to extend the line to service a single precinct in Port Melbourne and nothing more and seeing no visible improvement to the network overall? Go for broke on anything else, but at least we have seen the train network improve for the first time since the loop was built.
I get that South Yarra would be costly and it ain't being done. Also I personally wondered with the topography (and proximity to the river) the line is going to be on quite a slope there inappropriate for a platform unless it could dive down significantly earlier than where the portal is placed. And that is where property acquisition might come in to it. These are only my musings. But, I think the desirability for a Sth Yarra station stems from the fact you are removing a significant line from what is currently a busy interchange. Maybe the passengers changing at Sth Yarra aren't particularly high numbers.
And if we had not built ego driven edifices at each of the existing stations then we could have built a perfect interchange. Still it’s Australia - where we never miss a trick to ruin any project by doing it on the cheap. There’s also good transport at State Library and we didn’t need a station there either
@@geotardFisherman’s Bend is actually going to end up as a massive residential area and has no transport - Domain and Flinders St has. What do you think would have made more sense. Building a link to somewhere with no transport or duplication of something existing?
We need an independent body to just plan out the next 100 years of infrastructure. Construction will just happen in the sequence they decide based on population growth planned in areas. The government will just need to commit a certain amount to the projects every budget. This way, there's always a plan so everyone knows what's going on, not just a random project being proposed and cancelled with every change of government.
Things are just too disorganised with SRL, Melbourne Metro 2, City Loop Reconfig, Airport Rail, Western Rail Plan all needing to happen, but are clearly not being prioritised over road and freeway infrastructure.
The 25 billion being spent on WGT and NEL could easily have covered city loop reconfig and metro 2, allowing almost a complete RER experience in Melbourne, which would have help taken thousands of cars off the road.
Short-term governments shouldn’t be involved in long term decision making like this. Also politicians with interests in fossil fuel and carparking profits shouldn’t have any say on PT infrastructure. It kind of baffles me how governments can be so short sighted.
That requires planning and agreement with politicians.
The Metro tunnel would have been up and running now, if the Liberal Govt. had not wasted four years in trying to have the tunnel moved to benefit its developer mates and benefactors.
Victoria has removed over 100 level crossings and replaced many old stations mostly in the metro area, something Sydney did not have to find funds for because they removed theirs in the 1930s.
This Vic Govt has had to overcome the best part of 100 years of government inaction and neglect of the railways.
Not to mention the Liberal Party under Jeff Kennet literally destroyed the then MET. This led to a neglected network and skills shortage in rail. Add in Metro Trains bullshit diversity quotas they have to meet and you have a perfect shit storm of morons in maintenance and incompetent idiots who work in projects.
@@blueycarlton Oh quit the mates game. So old. All sides of politics are bent.
@@tepidtuna7450
Four years wasted. Liberal inaction. Promises, but delivering nothing.
Good video, thank you. But it's worth pointing out a few things. A connection at South Yarra would have been nice, but isn't essential, as there are multiple other connection points. The trams connect at Domain (I'm not calling it Anzac), and the trains connect at Flinders st and Melbourne Central. The eastern tunnel entrance was already an engineering challenge, due to quite significant space constraints at the meeting of the Sandringham, Pakenham and Frankston lines. Getting the tunnel to then somehow loop north to South Yarra station, then turn a sharp left again towards St Kilda road just wasn't feasible. Also, I don't think we'll fully see the benefit of the new tunnel until after it opens, as while only a few lines will connect to it, the increased capacity that will become available in the city loop and at Spencer St and Flinders St stations will allow more frequent services on every other line. Once the tunnel is operational, it becomes much easier to do renovations at Richmond and South Yarra, due to 2 tracks no longer being required. South Yarra needs a second entrance for example. I look forward to the benefits of the new tunnel.
Im NoT CaLLiNg iT AnZaC.
Wish we had included Upfield Lane and linked it to Rowvile or to Sandringham Lane, it would have helped with Reinstating the Clifton Hill- North Melbourne Stadion link and having Royal Park as an interchange Stadion, it would have helped a lot more.
@@soulsphere9242the sandringham line, by all talk, will be through routed to Werribee, as the Frankston line will go back into the City loop.
The ONLY increase in capacity is in the Northern loop by removing Sunbury trains. No other lines will benefit. See my post for a detailed breakdown of what the new tunnel will achieve compared to what could have been achieved by adjusting the entrances to the existing city loop.
The line was never going to do that complex dance to have a station at South Yarra. Instead, the tunnel was starting much further down the line (that's why so much land was going to be bought from the Jam Factory) and the Dandenong platforms would be to the southwest of the existing station. Since that's so far away, the Sandringham platforms were to be moved south of Toorak Road. A billion dollars to end up with a spaghetti station that wouldn't even be used for interchange that much.
Please do a future video on the past proposals like you mentioned.
And also on the importance of preserving rail corridors, not abandoning them, such as by placing buildings on them or turning them into cycle/shared paths. Re-activating an abandoned rail corridor is a lot harder than re-activating a preserved one.
I would have liked the metro tunnel to not go via South Yarra but continue under St Kilda Road. Have a stop at Commercial Road for the hospital, another one near St. Kilda junction. Maybe at stop near Williams Rid/Dandenong road, then on to Caulfield for interchange. From Caulfield, express to Chadstone, then express to Monash Uni, then continue under Wellington Road to Rowville and maybe Knox with some stops. :-)
I'm very happy to see such high quality videos for Melbourne transit! i hope you have more great videos like this coming!
Maybe if South Yarra didn't have those gigantic residential towers encroaching right up to the train corridor, then building a connection at South Yarra would have been feasible. The entry point where it is, seems to be the only cost-practical solution. Thanks, Matthew Guy! Hope your construction mates made a motza.
You touched on something at the end that is consistent with the views of the previous NSW Government being that all large transport projects must support growth, predominantly housing. They should also include TOD and medium to high density around stations. This is particularly the case on the metro to the WSA which has TODs in the middle of paddocks in outer western Sydney. Spending billions just to save existing commuters/drivers 5 minutes on a peak hour commute is no long sustainable.
The word previous was unnecessary, the new NSW State government has those very same beliefs. They have made it abundantly clear that TOD is the way forward.
Make the Flemington racecourse and Showgrounds normal stations that would be awesome, lots of people would use it. Yeah I know there’s no more capacity on the Craigieburn line and city loop to accommodate it and access issues being private property, but one can dream
And if they extended it to the Uni and future Health precinct at Footscray park, well...
I should also add the Pakenham & Cranbourne lines will run express between Caulfield & Anzac. So anyone between Caulfield and South Yarra will have to catch the train to Caulfield and then backtrack to Anzac. The Cranbourne Line will also end at Sunshine. This will allow for Sunbury/Pakenham line to run express between Sunshine & Arden stopping only at Footscray
2:20 i’m always interested in hearing of unfulfilled projects like that one from the 1920s
I think when the Suburban Rail Loop is open around 2035 this will free up a lot of space on trains. A lot of people going into the city to get on another line will be able to just use the SRL.
Whit the Pakenham line off the City loop gives way to a lot more from others lines like Frankston.
Lol, it's very unlikely there will ever be a finished SRL, and certainly not by 2035. That's only 12 years away, Victoria is now heaving with generational debt and there's no way the next government doesn't just drop the project.
@@bobbuliniusbotulismus7129 Sorry my mistake. That is the finish time 2035 is stage 1 of 3 or 4 stages.
The eastern suburb airport line
What?
So the Pakenham line will stop where in the CBD - Melbourne Central and Flinders only? Great video btw.
From 2025, services will cease to stop at Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, Richmond, and South Yarra stations due to the opening of the Metro Tunnel.
@@Dream_M1 Using the new tunnel, they'll *essentially* continue stopping at Flinders Street and Melbourne Central though.
@@shootingskelly17exactly, the problem will be just if you're stopping at Flagstaff Southern cross or parliament, but I guess it should be a very easy change once in the city
Pakenham trains will stop at Anzac, the town hall (which is basically Flinders), state library (which is Melbourne Central), Parkville, then Arden, then Footscray etc.
@@KingAcid15 You'd change onto a Loop train at Caulfield, exactly as passengers from the Frankston line currently have to do.
The Big Build should have involved less new roads and more more spent on public transport. As a cyclist, I get to ride under the new roads as they are being built. It feels like just a bunch of ugly suspended roads. When I think about how much is being spent, the lost opportunities gall me.
Please list the lost opportunities.
@@cabbagepatch8947 More money on public transport.
@@cabbagepatch8947 The West Gate “Tunnel” is huge money guzzler which has a tonne of suspended road directing cars and trucks into places like the inner northern suburbs which have previously not been car-centric. It will also take huge trucks to the Port, which means they’re actively ripping up freight train lines to do that. Same with widening Wurundjeri Way, which is where there used to be train lines that they’re ripping out to widen the freeway. They’re talking about the need to increase the percentage of rail freight while actively ripping out rail lines! Southern Cross could have also used the space for an extra platform with two lines, like they did with platform 15/16. They’re spending billions on a project that will just encourage more cars on the roads, particularly in places where people currently majority use public transport. Instead that money could’ve been used to improve rail freight, and bring good public transport to the Western suburbs, and trams to the inner west and north
Can all agree that labor atleast did something for public transport as opposed to the liberals who just would of built more toll ways
@@boomsledge I am enjoying having a dedicated bike path for most of my commute to work and can thank Labor for that.
Chapters
00:49 Background - Original City
01:26 Viaduct Built, 2 tracks, then 4
02:26 City Loop, 6 track viaduct
03:56 Metro Tunnel, new stations
05:02 Benefits
Dandenong Sunbury through running,
Frankston looping,
Sandringham Newport through running
Freeing up Craigieburn Upfield
06:30 Downsides, comparisons
07:24 No Airport connection (yet)
08:11 No Melton Wyndham connection (yet)
09:21 Conclusion
i don't agree that these downsides are valid. it doesn't need to be bundled. it works just fine on its own. obviously, i am very in favour of all projects that might connect with it
Airport Rail
Melton and Wyndham Vale Electrification
South Yarra Tunnel Station
and the big one, the Suburban Rail loop, which would be the biggest relief of capacity for the whole network.
Nice video mate!
Only problem with connecting the metro tunnel to more communities is that the HCMT’s would need to get the certification to run on those lines which they currently dont
As for the airport rail link and the regional extensions I could see those entering the loop, but I highly doubt we’ll see that any time soon
Great video keep the work up
The airport line was supposed to run via the Metro Tunnel, which it would have been able to do as it would have interchanged onto the Sunbury line at Albion. I do hope it still happens, as of all the projects an airport rail line was one of the most neccessary. As for the regional extensions, Melton & Wyndham Vale I can see happening as both of those lines are very busy. The thing that worries me though is Sunshine, the RRL has segregated those lines right into Southern Cross which makes me wonder how you get it onto the Metro Lines (which then creates another problem of that line becoming very busy with 4 lines theoretically being on it). And, does it then render RRL useless, which would be a shame.
HCMT compatibility is pennies compared to electrification and/or quadruplication costs.
Good analysis and well produced video. Cheers!
Not having a South Yarra station was a big missed opportunity. However passengers for Frankston can change at Caulfield but that doesnt help Sandringham.
Consideration needs to also be given to extending the Frankston, Cranbourne and Pakenham lines.
The only realistic way a South Yarra connection could have worked is by making an underground station below south Yarra that connects to the already existing above ground area. So it would stay in the tunnel
Provisions were left for this to happen in the future. Doing it now had the risk of blowing out the project cost and time
@@mrillies Thus ending up with a second rate solution.
@@smedleyfarnsworth263 exactly. It's absurd!
Don’t suppose you could discuss the M1 and how they are still milking contracts out of it?
Having the Metro tunnel incorporate the old outer circle line in some way would be amazing. That was a really useful looking line.
Hey mate, can you make a video on Mornington Railway. Are there any visibility of connecting it from either Frankston or Somerville?
Interesting video. Thanks for sharing. It is a pity that the Airport Rail Link has been delayed. this is really needed considering that we have a major airport here. Even the Airport West tram line could be extended to cater for airport passengers, which more likely could be done without too much expense. I agree that South Yarra would be better to be included on the Metro Rail Tunnel lines, which would make it possible for passengers to have two access train routes through the city. Love to see Melton and Wyndham lines electrified along with the Stony Point line from Frankston.
Melton, Wyndhamvale, yes. Stony Point, why?
If they electrified the Stony Point line and increased the services to equal the Frankston to city line, it may attract even more passengers.
@@RGC198 Why? That population is miniscule compared to Melton, Wyndhamvale and Tarneit. Just a couple of passing loops will suffice for the Stony Point Line.
The problem of Melbourne railway network is mainly focus on moving people in and out of CBD, but the modern metro network such as Hong Kong MTR, it aims to help moving people around the whole metro area.
There was a train line which didnt go to cbd and that was the Outer Circle line - the current Camberwell - Alamein line was part of it.
Great video. And you're right, definitely a missed opportunity, but it goes further. Sydney has done a great job at not just isolating lines, but they see the importance of all modes of public transport working together. For example, the new metro linking with trains at Chatswood at the Eastern end, and frequent bus connections at stations to connect the growing area.
Personally the biggest problem is getting to the train station. It's a 30 minute (2.5kms) walk from my house across roads with heavy traffic, busses are infrequent (not much faster than walking) and forget about driving because there's nowhere to park. What will really help potential commuters like me are networks of dedicated cycling/scooter paths leading to the train station. Otherwise all those new rail lines are meaningless because I can't easily get to the station.
Building a station at South Yarra would have been incredibly costly and impractical, as the train needs to dive a significant depth to reach Anzac station, as well as the location of South Yarra meaning construction would impact several properties in the area. At the end of the day it isn't the biggest loss, as the Sandringham Line and South Yarra itself are very well connected to the city and to Anzac station, the latter being served by the mentioned 58 tram route.
God Australians are backward. Totally and utter backward. No, building a station would NOT have been impossible. Or impractical. What you think we are the only city in the world that would have deep stations. Deep stations also means YOU DON’T NEED to buy the properties above. Oh and we’ve had lifts and escalators for quite a few decades. And no metro overs was a would have done such a dumb mistake of not building such an interchange. Maybe spending less on ego designed station complexes and that money could have actually been put towards building actual stations.
So instead we over spend on the other stations on ego driven station buildings? And don’t do something that wouldn’t have been missed overseas. I love the excuses ‘oh they can just get on somewhere else’. Geez no wonder we have sht rail in Australia. Cheap half a~~d planning.
@@andyrob3259 100%!
Sure "Anzac is connected by the 58 tram route" - I'm just going to sit wait for 20 min, then hop on the 58.. another 30 min doddle down to Anzac... It should all be about moving the greatest number of people from the most highly densely populated areas as fast as possible - only *that* will attract people onto public transport. cheers
Hi, if possible could you please make a video discussing what if we have trenched and covered 4 lane road from Power St - Punt Rd - Hoddle St- Brunswick Rd connecting M1, M2 and M3. These are busiest roads in Melbourne. Above roads, beautiful parks, bike lanes, and open spaces can be created. It is only 11 km but it will truely transform the city.
Could also extend 4km from Power St to Port Melbourne Beach. Benefits of starting from there would make it efficient for trucks to unload excavated land to reclaim land for the beach
I think it's important to leave airport express services as express, if they went Spencer > Sunshine > HighPoint (something that was once on the cards) > Tulla...then you run the risk of having a slow service.
We need to get our corp travellers direct from airport to office in under 30mins. So please please please I hope the airport train station is an underground one...not some shoddy long gangway walk towards T4 to access above rail.
If it takes more then 10mins to walk from gate to train...I'd just continue to organise an Uber
Well I hope that the Airport Service is not built. Feel free if you cannot be bothered to walk from T4 to carry on using Uber. Geez some walk further from their Car parks. Spending $13 Billion on a rail link to the Airport. N O T H A N K S !!!
If the SRL is supposed to include a section between the Airport and Broadmeadows Station anyway then they need to just build that connection first as its own thing, only instead of an interchange, extend it to branch off of the Craigieburn line. Honestly, when it used to be the Broadmeadows line and they wanted to extend out to Craigieburn, they should've tacked that part onto the Upfield line instead and built the Airport link at the same time. So the Broadmeadows line would become the Airport line, and the Upfield line become the Craigieburn line.
I can see sense in that. However, First of all though we would need to remove all V/Line services from the Broadmeadows corridor. Secondly the level crossings will need to be removed.
Still have the Broadmeadows Corridor going to Craigieburn.
Thanks for the video. On the topic of expanding suburbs and the recent discussion on building up not out, I would like to see the 64 tram extended to run through Centre Rd, providing East Bentleigh with a nice accessible route to the city (modern low floor trams and platforms). I’m keen to hear your thoughts?
I’m keen for tram route extensions of any kind! And yes I’ve had the same thought about extending that route in that direction. The slow speed of the tram would be an issue (it would take ages to get from East Bentleigh to the city) but there are some changes that can be made to somewhat resolve that.
Thanks for you reply. I was thinking that more trams would be added so existing services would continue. People on the outer end could go towards Bentleigh train station and change (as the tram would stop in front of it). Or if the line was extended all the way to Clayton train station then this would bring more options. This tram line has only really been possible since the lowering of Bentleigh station in 2016. There is a bus every 20mins. However, I believe a tram every 10min would charge buying decisions as trams are more comfortable, accessible, reliable, and charming. You are far less likely to miss out (full or canceled bus). Plus it shows a high level of commitment to the route. Do you see any holes in the idea?
Btw, interesting side note: trams pollute less than electric busses, as they don’t produce tyre dust.
No. Centre Road is far to narrow for Trams.
@@mjcats2011Trams are designed to fit where cars and trucks fit. Plus, it turn out trams on tracks are better at negotiating the road than very large trucks (that we see regularly). If you’re referring to all the parking etc on either side, well, ideally most/all of that would be removed and turned into: public space, turning lanes, etc. There is plenty of parking that people choose not to use. They’d rather hold up traffic and take far too long to parallel park. In fact those two things (adding turning lanes and no parallel parking) would 2-3x traffic flow during busy times.
And come on. Trams are just plain lovely. Sooo many more people would use them than do buses. And more people would happily buy in East Bentleigh - provided they could catch a quick tram to Bentleigh station - then off to the city.
@WhyWouldYouDrawThat Sorry but that is a silly idea. Centre Road is basically 1 lane from Bentleigh Station to East Boundary Road.
More people use them than Buses because the bus network is operated by flimsy dirt cheap buses on really poor frequencies.
I wonder if the undistinguished Hawksburn Station can be used as a junction station, I suspect many train won’t stop there, bit like East Richmond Station which only gets the Alamein trains.
Caulfield will do that. Change there for metro tunnel/Frankston line services.
You mean Glen Waverley Trains. Alamein trains only serve East Richmond during the peak.
@@mjcats2011 I stand corrected
Brisbanes cross river rail is similar with the exception of a genuinely new cbd station and Wooloongabba.
interesting video, however you have missed some points, if passengers on the Packenham line or Cranbourne line need to access South Yarra or Richmond, they can change trains at Caulfield, as you would currently if you need to change for Sandringham/Belgrave Lilydale Lines through Richmond. As stated by some below, it was prohibitively expensive to link to South Yarra Station. Secondly , while Sydney Metro may have a broader plan, that is because they lack Trams to suburbs (which they had years ago just as good of a network as Melbourne but being car bias they decided to rip them all out. Then it cost them Billions to relay them again in the CBD and did not have the documentation where existing essential cables were laid out in the CBD, resulting significant delays
Dont forget ordering trams with fixed bogies so that the arches crack when navigating curves...
Sydney is able to focus on its fantastic metro lines because they already have their suburban train system in order with several cross-town connections and all day 15 min frequency.
Sth yarra connection to the Metro tunnel is not needed for that reason (access to Sth Yarra from far and beyond).. though sure.. that would be an added benefit. The main reason it is needed is to get people living in the densely populated Sth Yarra quickly into the city and beyond to the University. Cheers
So two trains instead of one. Bravo. Your not in planning are you?
Yep, ripping out trams while a terrible decision for Sydney, it has made their heavy rail system much better than Melbourne's.
They were already going under south yarra to connect to annzac, so they could have added a underground station at south yarra and not mess with the rest of the lines.
I use the sandringham transfer quite often. Now I have to switch to the frankston line then switch again, makes it inconvenient for me.
Also my workplace is near Flagstaff, so now I have to get off at melb central and take the tram adding extra time to my commute.
Overall great project even tho it makes things inconvenient for me.
Pretty much all of the recent prime ministers over the last 4 decades are located in sydney... this is why sydney gets so much more infrastructure funding.
What? Apart from the airport one, the others have all been NSW Gov funded.
Maate. IA acts on what is sent to them from the States. NSW lodges their Metro. Did Victoria do that, no. They asked for $10 Billion extra for that NE link and extra funding for freeways. I wish people would get off this stupid conspiracy theory.
No they do not. It is what the States put forward to Infrastructure Australia. NSW put forward Metro. Victoria, the effing NE Link, Westgate Tunnel and the SRL.
Town Hall and State library are "genuine" new stations. What is being built at each of these is similar if not larger than the scope of stations like ANZAC and Melbourne Central including new station boxes, platforms etc.
If they were adding platforms at FSS I wouldnt consider them new but these are new station boxes under the ground, albeit ones that dont provide any new coverage.
No different than any new stations ffs. Overseas they build new stations adjacent to existing stations, they don’t rename them something totally different just to confuse the issue
@@xr6lad Well these sort of are new stations. The "connection" to Town Hall from FSS for example will be a tunnel from Campbell arcade. Apparently emergency services requested that the names be different. Some metros overseas follow this convention but I really dont mind either and doubt itll be an issue when the line opens.
The problem is the change of direction in the loop. It is fully two hours every day where people can't get from Central to Southern Cross. It is the stupidest thing ever. Why that's allowed to continue is beyond me
the metro tunnel isn't as flawed or overbudget as Brisbanes Cross River Rail
I worked on the CYP Metro project as an engineer during excavation.
After working in mines around the world. I've never seen underground excavations on the the state library and town hall stations.
Not the most economical way to build a subway for sure
Yeah they were forced to dig them with roadheaders. Original plan was to cut and cover all the way up Swanston Street but people were.... Not happy about that
@@guy8968 Who builds cut and cover in a dense built up area these days?
@@mjcats2011 well exactly. did NOT go well in community consultation
Thank you writting this up, I think new South to North link tunnel is better for people who dont want go into City...WE only got big problem is Airport Link is big mess. Sunshine hub station should be scraped. .Build new tunnel under Melbourne airport link connect to Broadmeadows line and Sunbury Line much easier to have both Metro and Express train either way from Southren Cross Station . Sunshine hub is big conguestion of Vline from Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo and Metro train from Sunbury.
with the electrification of Melton line that could come into the new tunnel and the Wyndhamvale train could follow the new tunnel or pick up a line to southern cross
No, the Wyndhamvale and Melton lines should have been part of thew Melbourne Metro.
Anything that gets the crazy Melton traffic off the western highway would be a good idea
In terms of providing new capacity through the CBD, the only lines that I can see that it does this for are the Upfield, Craigieburn and Sunbury lines given that with the Sunbury Line no longer using the Northern Loop tunnel, there will be one less line using that track.
In terms of the Clifton Hill and Burnley loop lines, it makes no impact on them at all. As for the Caulfield group, the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines already have exclusive use of that loop tunnel given the Frankston line runs cross city. The Sandringham Line already has its own isolated pair of tracks in and out of Flinders Street to platforms 12 and 13 so no capacity gains there either.
All in all, it is really only the three lines currently using the Northern Loop in the City Loop that gain extra capacity from this project.
12 and 13 will be left unused because Frankston Trains will use 6 and 7 and the cross city Sandy Werribee/Williamstown will use 8 and 9 as Cranbourne and Pakenham Trains will not longer call at Flinders Street.
How does anyone on the current Pakenham/Cranbourne lines get to South Yarra / Richmond?
There might be in-between trains like every second train goes to South Yarra/Richmond.
@@DeMews No there won't be. Change at Caulfield or maybe Malvern.
Recently had the legitimate pleasure of experiencing Beijing’s subway system and holy hell - that thing is incredible; Trains run every ~5 minutes on a line and one-way trips cost me like $0.65 AU!
Rather than a wheel-and-spoke design that we currently have here in Melbourne, it’s more akin to a spiderweb, with lots of cross-overs between lines.
Something we will hopefully work towards with the outer loop and further extensions, to accommodate our ever-increasing population.
Melbourne's transport systems overall, while no where near perfect, are absolutely world class and I hope further projects will carry it into the future.
laughing out loud - no rail link to the airport! World class? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@JimmiAlli Miss the part where he said it's not perfect?
@@chrispekel5709 no but I was concentrating on the ‘world class’ part.
So you've never travelled anywhere overseas then ✈️🌍
@@JimmiAlliso it needs a rail link to the airport for your once in 3 years you get a plane? Ok
The tunnel should have been extended to Caulfield and 3 lines to Dandenong. This would have given 6 tracks to Caulfield freeing up the local lines for Frankston trains, freight and V/Line. Then they could have had true CBTC running between Dandenong and Sunshine for HCMT trains. A third line to Dandenong could have been for Vline and freight. Frankston trains could have use the Caulfield local lines for expresses from Flinders st to Cheltenham/Mordialloc.
Not enough freight and Vline services to justify it - overkill - other spending priorities
The metro tunnel was originally meant to end at Caulfield with an interchange at Balaklava station on the Sandringham line and 4 station in total along st kilda road between Carlisle Street and Flinders Street.
Yes what a waste of money having CBTC installed outside of the Core. It makes absolutely no sense and one of the reasons why Melbourne will fall further behind Sydney in Rail Transit.
A possible missed opportunity for the Sydney Metro is the provision for a station between Chatswood and Crowsnest near the intersection of the Gore Hill Freeway and the Pacific Highway to service Lane Cove , with its many blocks of flats . An entrance tunnel off Longueville Rd would make it more accessible for passengers. The existing Artarmon station is some considerable distance away , approximately 2 kilometres, although the route is virtually parallel . This suggestion is not that outlandish when you consider that there was a proposal to incorporate a station at West Lindfield to service the UTS campus in the planning stages of the then Epping to Chatswood railway , which is now part of the metro . This proposal was abandoned due to the added cost versus potential patronage . I absolutely agree with the comment in this video about the " new " stations in Melbourne CBD which really are virtually just interchange stations - extentions of existing ones , rather than covering new ground . I can certainly appreciate the necessity of their location , and the associated underground pedestrian links should be brilliant ! In Sydney , it is possible to walk several blocks without setting foot on the street , in several locations .
I agree. I don't think there's enough stations along any of the new lines.
@@OldAussieAds one of the downsides of having a lot of stations on any given line is that ,by stopping at every station , the trip takes considerably longer . I recently caught a Blue Mountains express to Strathfield from Central , and was staggered by just how quick this trip was compared with the normal suburban trains . I cannot see how cannibalizing the Bankstown line for metro running will improve trip times due to the high number of stations . With conventional trains , express runs are possible , however it would appear to be "all stations " operation only ,due to the inflexible nature of the metro system . The funds for this conversion would be far better spent on the western Sydney Metro project !
They need to connect the Werribee and Wyndham Vale lines like they said they were going to they need almost no track to do this and it would cost very little. New station to service Harpley estate area would be good.
I totally agree with you about the South Yarra issue. It means that anyone coming from the Pakenham/Cranbourne line will have to change trains not once, but twice if they're going on a Sandringham train. So annoying.
How many people would make this change?
It would be possible to change only at Town Hall/Flinders St. Not as fast as changing at South Yarra would have been, but a single change is possible with a little more travel time
While annoying yes.
As someone from the west (and north) - most of the infrastructure sits in the SE, there are options for people in the area,Trams and trains.
In the west there is often no infrastructure - there is one tram that doesn't even go into the CBD, and another that meanders about, and it's great to get to a mall - if that is your thing, but super inefficient to get to work closer to the city.
The train lines are sparse and service very little area.
Most of the money is spent and the project ideas are about facilitating the south east.
I mean, how will they ever get to the airport? Most people in the west and north can hardly get to work on PT.
@@cabbagepatch8947 Our current radial rail network is very problematic and doesn't serve Melbourne's needs at all well since only 10% of people work in the city. Anything which relieves the need for rail users to have to go into the city to get anywhere else will help. Melbourne's one of the last city rail networks in the world to be stuck with this problem.
@@MsLouisez
Extending the tram along Footscray Rd from Docklands to Footscray, would be easy to do, you would think.
I wish there was a line between flinders street and Frankston
There is. There's currently maintenance being carried out, but there is definitely a suburban train route from Flinders Street to Frankston.
@@kippen64 fuck, why would they give a line to those barbarians
This is going to unlock the city. Southern Cross and Anzak joining in the future west and continuing on looks like it would be a good next move
Mostly agree, however the melton and Wyndham lines also have a significant regional rail presence that is not going to change with electrification. The Ballarat and Geelong services run every half an hour on these lines. Compared to Pakenham and Sunbury which has one regional service each, with less frequency. It further complicates it. Honestly both Melton and Wyndham should have a shuttle electric train service to sunshine. Then passengers can get on the very frequent metro tunnel. A stop gap solution until much greater investment.
That stop gap solution requires a great deal of engineering work at Sunshine as regards to terminating facilities. Melton and Wyndhamvale with quadding the section of track from Sunshine Junction to Deer Park Junction should been included in the Melbourne Metro Project.
I understand your argument about wasted opportunities, but those would add cost. Scope creep could cause the whole project to get shelved. At least this way it gets done 🤷♀️
have you filmed this video at 4am💀
I'll be curious to know the floor traffic at Arden, currently there is nothing there,no housing,some old factories, plenty of bike parking and a bus stop but invisible car spots (probably designed that way) Kensington, Macaulay,North Melbourne stations and a tram cater to the current population. It would be dead on the weekend and night time. And such a huge facade. As a taxpayer/commuter I certainly hope it's been worth it. Also Anzac traffic will be interesting to watch.
CM:- "People who worked near Parliament had to go around" Richmond Station:- "UMM HELLO!"
Look we really need a 4 track tunnel under the bays from Philip Island to Navarre - I'm sick of these missed opportunities.
I'm sad there's no metro tunnel station near me. I'm right next to South Yarra station but could really use that route specifically. They should have at least built a station in the Jam Factory shopping centre redevelopment.
100% agree with you. Massive wasted opportunity
The amount of empty platforms and general buildings
Why
I would like to see Cityloop upgraded from 4 platforms to 6 platforms (adding 2 new tracks) and then increase capacity between Footscray and Burnley by building an underground thoroughfare that still connects with existing stations along the way including North Melbourne, Southern Cross, Flinders Street, and Richmond, (South Kensington and East Richmond don't need to be included) this way it can free up capacity on Platform 4 of the Cityloop for Glen Waverley and Alamein services by transferring Lilydale and Belgrave lines to an alternative, and also if Melton and/or Wyndham Vale lines ever get electrified, they can use the new platform 5 on the Cityloop (platform 6 would be used for any services from the east that goes through Richmond this way if someone wants to get to Richmond from the Cityloop, they just get a train from an even numbered platform)
Nooooo, I’m gonna have to start changing trains to get to work near southern cross. :’(
It absolutely absurd not having Sth yarra station and Sth yarra precinct linked to this project. Everyone who lives in this great city knows it. Just as the argument "you'd need to spend billions to go deep under the current Sth yarra station" to make it work - is equally as absurd. As it stands now, coming out of Sth yarra station across Toorak Rd you could hit a golf ball into the opening of where the new line dives under ground. It really is *that* close. People are going to stand on that 58 tram stop look across the road and watch these new trains dive under ground (as they head to the centre of the city in less than 5 min) and think what a ridiculous planning balls up - and think of Daniel Andrews screw ups every single day, for the rest of their lives. Until this mess is fixed up. What ever happened to the idea of building a *new* station (with multiple pedestrian entry points into Chapel St and Jam Factory where all the shops etc are) just before where the new line dives under and connecting *that* to the existing Sth yarra Station *above* ground (on top of the current empty space above the rail line?) With rapid express walkways etc like they have in airports for a fraction of the costs? Be cheaper than some of the level crossing removals. Lots have new stations that have been built/put "up" or the dwelling built above a line cut deep in a cutting (the new station at Union comes to mind) with the level crossing removal project. So why not a Station like this near chapel St? And the "cutting" is already there! It's a farce not developing and connecting this highly densely populated and visited area into this project. From *either* direction (Even the Sth East)...A total farce. The decision to not link Sth yarra was always political. It would have been fabulous to have a new way to get on off this wonderful new Metro Tunnel line from this area out to the university and Northern Melbourne areas (and beyond) to airport etc *quickly* from the dynamic Chapel St precinct. It's a total botched opportunity the way it has been done.
No easy interchange with any city stations.
Update: Melbourne Airport rail link has been green lit by Federal Infrastructure review. Negotiations with MLB airport continue on whether rail will be sky rail or tunnel.
I would really want to see Metro Tunnel 2 from Newport to Clifton Hill done in my life-time
Sydney electrified lines to Newcastle Katoomba and Wollongong over 20 years ago! They are so far in front of Vic
4 tracks is technically the truth, but what he didnt mention is that all the groups of lines (Clifton Hill, Caulfield, and the northern group travel on their own set of tracks.
Melton & Wyndhamvale train lines run through safe Labor seats.
ah what the airport train station may be shelved? I'm from regional Vic we need the Airport train station
We need density in Melbourne to make new railway lines and stations make sense. The we need turn-up-and-go frequencies. Waiting more than 10 minutes for a train in a city of 4million plus is embarrassing.
Given that there still isn’t funding for electrifying Melton/Wyndham Vale, and the politics of what route the Airport line should follow were still running well into the construction phase of the Metro Tunnel, waiting for those things would have meant delaying the Metro Tunnel, which, given the politics, might have meant it never being built. So no, I don’t agree with you that they should have planned for everything at once. It seems clear there will be no shortage of trains to put in the tunnel from the west, and anyway there is a turnback at South Kensington.
I've grown up in Melbourne and once governments gave thought to the future. But the past 30 years state governments have become short-sighted and very unintelligent. I've seen numerous roads built with viewing and drainage, only to be ripped up a few years later for lanes to be added. We are governed by idiots in this city. It's very frustrating and annoying.
100% correct. Melbourne has the worst transport "planning" (or lack thereof) of any Australian capital city. The political culture in this state is beyond broken. Governments here seem to take pleasure in blowing up Melbourne's future if it means they can reward their mates and inflict humiliation on their political opponents.
The South Yarra station option was done to death, coming in on the other side of the debate is hardly revolutionary. As to the electrification of the Ballarat line. For comfort the velocity is a better train, that aside, the loop changes direction in the middle of the day. You commute from Melton to all Eastern services in the morning without going through the loop. Similarly eastern services come to southern cross without the loop at night. For us the biggest improvement would be the building of the airport link as proposed. We now have good tracks from southern cross to Ballarat. The biggest improvement to our experience would be upgrading some of the metro lines. Some of them are in a bit of a mess.
Hot take:
The metro tunnel should continue south from Anzac to a new underground station at St Kilda (somewhere near the old station or between Acland and Fitzroy Street), then an interchange at Balaclava, and then continuing to the above-ground lines at Caulfield. Anyone else?
The Clifton Hill extension will be good.
If anything, this entire project should have been part of a larger rapid transit project similar to Sydney Metro instead of having two suburban connections on either end.
Infrastructure in Melbourne is a bit behind considering the population growth. This is probably the first line they have opened in 50 years. They need lines going to the outter suburbs with fast regular train services. Sydney already has a fast train network with multiple lines on all routes. I think one of the main benefits of the metro is it is a new train system with driverless trains that turn up every few minutes. More of the exisiting network could possibly be converted as well. Driverless trains is probably the way to go
Sydney's train network has so many areas it doesn't serve. That's why you needed metro and the trams. Melbourne has far more coverage
@@74_pelicans It really doesn't. There are huge swathes of suburbs that are not served by rail in the South East and North West and some of our fastest growing suburbs are served by V/Line.
@@74_pelicansMore coverage, but far less usage and much less interconsecutiveness compared to Sydney's.
When I was a little kid in 1981, and Melbourne's population was 2.7 million, off-peak trains came by Sunshine once every 20 minutes. Now it's 2023 and the population of Melbourne has doubled and trains still stop at Sunshine - a major precinct and transport interchange - once every 20 minutes. That says it all really. For all the self-conscious fuss over the "iconic" trams, Melbourne is addicted to cars & for good reason, you can't survive without one in most of the city.
Hear, hear. For all the people that are saying Melbourne has great transit because we have Trams is missing the point.
Electrification to Melton and Wyndham Vale will see no improvement on the network. All of of V/Line's rolling stock is diesel, so the only way they would benefit is by building new rolling stock that runs purely electric at a hefty price to the taxpayer.
Alternatively you could give the proposed Melton and Wyndham Vale lines to Metro to run their electric fleet, but then you run into additional issues with V/Line services being banked up behind late-running Metro services. Take one look at punctuality along the Gippsland V/Line and you'll immediately realise this will not improve travel times.
You want to improve services to Melton and Wyndham Vale? Separated tracks for V/Line services before they reach Sunshine and complete track duplication from Geelong to Warrnambool.
So its alright to spend Billions on Airport and SRL, but not electrify Melton and Wyndhamvale. Of course it will improve the network. Far more trains can be run by quadding and electrifying.
Yes the WRP was about providing extra tracks on that corridor and it should be done before any Train to the Airport.
Mega city one
Because you need 25 million people for all that industry you don’t have.
The naming is horrendous, they should be named after the street their on ( In the city) or suburb
Even more horrendous is ''Southern Cross'' station.
It used to be ''Spencer Street'' station but a Labor party pollie decided to change it for whatever reason.
Can’t believe there is no airport rail link . It’s 20/3 you drongo politicians
Don't think Melbourne Metro Tunnel will be fully ready till 2025. There are still quite some works to be done.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a glance at the business case before mentioning the lack of a south yarra connection as a "missed opportunity". The reasons are articulated clearly from what I've seen - engineering issues, huge cost increase and it is a station that is already well serviced by transport. Plus, you missed the biggest issue with the project; it is decades overdue.
Please consider making your future videos a little more objective.
I think it certainly was a missed opportunity sure, but agree with not building it as it was a billion dollars extra to build a station that was already well-served. They did add provision for it being built in the future though.
@@YukeWeiss Not adding Sth yarra was a planning blunder from the start!
Not building a station at South Yarra was a HUGE missed opportunity. The Stations at 'Town Hall' and 'State Library' are really just the north bound platform extensions of Flinders Street and Melbourne Central. It's totally ridiculous to have stations that are that close to each other for the sake of being north/south east/west. Clearly they've never been to London or Singapore where junction stations with similar layouts are the same name with each having reasonable passage ways linking north and east bound platforms. Green Park in London as an example. To give them different names makes it too confusing. Imagine tapping in at 'State Library, riding the train around, changing and then coming back to tap out at Melbourne Central. Just stupid.
It was a value for money equation. Provision was made for it to be added later if someone wants to do it. Hard to explain why South Yarra needed another $950m for metro tunnel platforms when outer metro citizens just have a shitty bus service. Priorities.
The Victorian Government always has an issue with building projects on current problems and not future ones.
By the time the project is completed, it's already outdated.
When Moose's run rampant in the city that is what you get Moose's blocking the road in to the Metro Tunnel!!!!
I wish someone would actually explain in detail what it is about the current city loop that limits its capacity so much. I find it hard to believe that the loop is physically not capable of having trains go through it more often than every 20 minutes at 9pm on a Friday. I want more than just a vague promise from all this Metro Tunnel marketing malarky. I want hard numbers, eg guarenteed Upfield trains every 10 mins or less until midnight. That would actually make the line useful rather than forcing me to take a tram or even just walk becayse I can’t be arsed waiting at a train station.
each city loop tunnel is a single track railroad, and each tunnel access has rail switches between different main rail corridors, these are estimated to use a minute to switch and clear the signal
while the city loop's fixed block signal can only do at most 2-3 minutes per service, and then the major junctions (richmond, flinders street, north melbourne and southern cross) are meant to be operating in low speed, and heck lot of rail switching process, platform re-allocations, just to provide sort of service variations(like a frankston service terminates at flinders street and change service to racecourse line, or sunbury service not getting through the loop and changed into frankston service)
These always cause heavy traffics, delays, sudden cancel of service and operation complexity, and overall, less peak hour capacity and service reliability.
The best example is the Northern group(Sunbury, Cragieburn, Upfield), they do suffer the worst signal capacity in the peak hour and could sometimes delayed/cancelled without notice, just because the junctions and the loop can't take too much trains thus bottle-necked he whole traffic
the metro tunnel could nearly physically separate those junctions and switches entirely, and a moving block signalling under double track arrangement could keep the theoretical capacity way denser and faster than a single loop track with fixed block signalling under its better train distancing nature
while track from south kensington to sunbury and south yarra to caufield do still shared with V/line occasionally after re-merging to the existing track, it could still freed up a lot of capacity, not only those merged lines, but other services as well, as there's less shared platform and less traffic in the junction in order to make other services be faster and much straightforward and more services if needed.
also, the 10 minute off-peak is always feasible in general in tcurrent system, and it's more or less about the business case do worth operating it or not
a train operation, track maintenance and train staff do have its running costs, if more passengers do commute off-peak frequently, and workers union won't make any objection for more operation workload, then PTV will more or less happy to make more frequent services even running only with shorter set of train.
THIS IS A TRAIN TO FLINDERS STREET/SOUTHERN CROSS STATION VIA THE CITY LOOP🗣️🔥🔥🔥
Nothing will change in Melton while it remains a Safe Labour Seat with a representative parachuted in from outside the electorate who votes how he's told to and doesn't give a damn about the issues in the region. Those in government won't do the upgrades needed to most of the major roads, the rail, the freeway, or build the hospital that's been needed out here for Decades - last election that was promised 'after the next election', meaning nothing happening till 2025/26 at the earliest.
Another question to ask about all the development going on, "What happed to all the 'Green Wedge' reserves?" There were protests in the '80's that resulted in large swathes of land that was then outside suburbia, that was reserved to be the 'lungs of Melbourne' and was NEVER meant to get surburban development. A lot of those areas are places where existing land owners are being taxed off thier land thanks to re-zoning, and replaced by these new suburbs.
December 2024 reporting in, still waiting
A line branching off the tunnel, near Melbourne University, then turning and running along Princes St and Alexandra Pde to the Eastern Freeway. Then along the Eastern Freeway to Doncaster. This could finally give Doncaster a rail service. Through run it with the Sandringham line, if possible.
They act like the Loop is congested or something. If I'm waiting 20 minutes for a train during peak hour then it's due to Metro incompetence.
Well when NSW gets substantially more funding then of course they can build more!
Why give to us when we need $13 Billion to build a spur to the Airport? I wouldn't give it to us either. Planning for Public Transport in this state is absolutely dismal. In any case the Sydney Metro has been entirely funded by the State of NSW.