Yet another downside of these over V-sets is that if you can't use stairs you spend up to THREE HOURS facing inwards. V-sets have forwards facing seats at vestibule level.
It will be interesting to see what travelling on a D set will be like since I’m from Newcastle. Hopefully on the other hand some of the V sets get preserved for museums, charter services, bought by private owners and NSW Transport Heritage Expo organisations.
The reason for fixed seats is to give more padding... Want seats harder than the Oscars? Then you can have reversible seats. That's the only reason they have fixed seats - it gives more padding and meet fire life safety requirements
They did this in favour of USB ports, power sockets, tray tables and more ergonomic/comfortable seating. Though I think it may open a can of worms for maintenance costs… highly doubt they’ll keep up with maintaining the USB ports (they’ll likely break often), the tray tables (vandals will break them) etc.
The V-sets have the most comfortable seats for those long trips that could be 2-3 hours. Sure, the acceleration is slow, the brakes aren't great, and a long list of other issues. But give me those comfy reversible seats any day over a H or D set.
Completely agree with you, the H sets seats especially are extremely uncomfortable and I know from experience the pain of them going on the Sydney to Newcastle trip several times. Thanks for watching!
I often do a South Coast Journey on the H Set and I don’t see how the seats are uncomfortable, but that’s probably because I’ve never been on a V Set. Every time I’ve gone on the Central Coast line I always seem to get an H Set.
The V sets could have been a "template" for the new replacement trains to be built in NSW. That would have been excellent forward thinking, given the build things in Australia ideas that have recently sprung up.
A lot of the dramas around design issues were brought up very early in the project, but all concerns were ignored. In the beginning (late 2014?), they sought an off the shelf design with luggage racks and tray tables (obviously inspired by European Intercity trains), but quickly found that no suitable high floor design existed. That didn't stop their other goals though such as specifically seeking out non-reversible seating. A few years later, there was a Sydney Morning Herald article with a person from Transport going on about how everyone else only uses fixed seating, even Japan (which is a huge lie). So obviously they made these decisions before design and needed to find ways to justify them. As with the operating model, there was a memo put out in 2016 that they had 3 options - as is with guards, the customer service position, and no guard, and they were going with the latter option, which generated the expected uproar. By around 2018, they had slipped towards the Customer Service position as a non Safeworking qualified position, which was received as unsatisfactory. Though if you talked to the managers at the time, they insisted it was a qualified position. Around 2020, the proposed operating model was something stupid like 2 guards, one sitting in a seat watching the cameras and on the phone with the driver to communicate the departure, while the other was doing platform duties before coming back in due to TI crew door and no bell. Obviously this was never going to work but you could tell management was desperate. And now, here we are. My understanding is various systemwide improvements have been proposed, but never acted upon. That Burwood incident comes to mind. Why don't they have windows that guards can lean out of like in Japan if it's such a concern?
2:18 best part, shows why it didn’t come with guard features and why it was such a faliure! Explained well, easy to understand reasons why they broke down every 69 minutes on testing. Nice job explaining this 🎉 🙂 But fr tho, it is a good explanation and a good video, nice 👍
This might be unpopular but D sets are actually significantly better than V sets, except for seat comfort. D sets have open vestibules and larger toilets, as well as PID displays and wider doors. During peak times the open vestibules and wider doors are really important to reduce dwell times at stations and fit more trains in. People just miss the V sets for nostalgia ( I do as well, but progress must occur). And when its crowded most people wont even have a seat so seat comfort isn't really a big deal. And lastly, D sets can reach 160km/h, which is useful if we were to ever upgrade the rail lines for higher speed running. I just think the government should implement them faster, They were due to be introduced in 2021 but have been delayed for so long.
The original plan was that guards would be changed into service attendant like positions that would patrol the train, not that they would be removed completely. The change was to make them no longer have a "safeworking" role. Currently the guard cannot leave their cab due to their inability to undertake safeworking roles elsewhere in the train. Not saying it's good bad or otherwise, that's just the rule. As for trains not fitting the track comments that the MLC made, this is a common misconception. Because the guard wasn't going to be controlling the doors, it was decided that the train should be as close to the platform as possible and should fit the Medium electric Kinematic Envelop (KE) which most of the network had been progressively upgraded to over the last few decades. The last hold out was the Blue Mountains line beyond Springwood through to Lithgow. These upgrades are similar to when the V set was introduced almost 50 years ago when it was introduced. To be honest, that KE upgrade was probably the one thing done right with the D set. Otherwise you would have built a train that would have had a larger platform gap at all other stations on the network than the OSCAR it was displacing.
Do you have any more information on what safe working role guards perform on the newest trains? (not the d sets) I'm curious to know. I would have loved to see the guards take on a role walking the train, giving people safety/comfort, checking Tickets and operating the doors from anywhere within the train (like the UK operating model). This would have maintained safety for boarding (the guard closes the doors from an override at the door closet to them anywhere in the train) and once doors are closed they close their override door with the driver also having visuals for extra safety from cctv.
@@DAEMTAM I'm no expert on what exactly the wording is and I'm happy to be corrected. The guards under the current model are responsible for releasing the train from the platform. That's the process of closing doors and watching the train leave. They need to do this by physically checking the length of the train visually. At stations like Fassifern the guard needs to walk half the length of the train to be able to see the front carriages before walking back to their compartment and giving the all clear. The guard is also supposed to watch the train enter the platform as well. I'll go you one better on an alternate "walking train model" for the guard, in Victoria on Vline's Vlocity trains, the guard has a remote control for the doors and patrols the train. These are 3 car sets as opposed to the 10 car sets, however this function of patrolling the train was intended to be primarily for the outer suburban and intercity areas as I understand it. Another part of the proposal that was not very well covered by in general was that not all the train doors would open. Only those engaged by passengers would open. So in the city, that would likely be pretty much every door. In the outer areas less doors. This would have also addressed customer concerns in the Blue mountains about the lack of inner doors on the new trains in the middle of winter with Mt. Victoria and Lithgow getting down to 0 degrees or lower. The doors much like in Melbourne would have closed after a period of time. The trains post modification will have all doors open now and only the guard can open the doors. This is an example of how the integrated design has now been changed for a poorer customer outcome than intended (not saying the change was good, bad or otherwise). Communication around these trains was just poor. Both in preparing staff for the change and getting the message out of what the actual changes were. It would one day make a great case study for how NOT to do effective change management.
@@thebats5270 thank you for the detailed reply, love the remote idea. I really wish NSW would adopt customer button operation of doors across every model that supports it, including the light rail. It works well for hot, cold, windy and rainy days. People would get used to it if it was consistent!
It frustrates me no end that some politicians use this argument knowing full well it is a lie. The decision to widen the KE was long overdue and meant that we got wider trains that took advantage of the KE that existed everywhere except west of Springwood. Yes, there are other issues on the DSets but let’s concentrate on them and not make up lies. It is a slur on the professional staff at Sydney Trains.
@@DAEMTAM it does on the intercity fleet such as the oscars and the ex G sets. The reason for the door controls is to prevent doors from opening on platforms that are short
Having been on V Sets and H Sets, the one thing I found great about the former was the luggage racks above the seats, whereas on the latter, a large number of seats were being taken up by suitcases because there was nowhere else to put them.
@@OldAussieAds, certainly when I travelled on the H set, the racks were not above the seats but in the vestibule area - not particularly convenient if you want to keep an eye on your bags!
Before getting these trains, the state government and Transport for NSW should have sat down with the union and said, "Look guys, this is what we're proposing. What do you think?" and had open discussions and agreements from the get go. Come to some kind of compromise, like retraining guards as passenger service attendants and giving some guarantees about pay and conditions. Drivers, also, needed assurances about safety and liability when operating doors and assisting special needs passengers. Train crew in NSW are already operate in a culture of extreme paranoia about liability and blame as-is, so to add these 'scary changes' to the workplace was only going to cause problems and dramas. The government and TfNSW clear had no idea about train crew culture. A basic understanding would have avoided these issues. Ultimately, it was the arrogance and secrecy of the government that derailed this rollout.
One benefit (that most people don't realise) of the door between the vestibule and the seats on the V-Set is that it stops the cold air getting into the seated area during winter, it regulates the temperature/air con where people are sitting... This is especially important on the Blue Mountains line in Winter, with the new train being fully open, all the heat will escape at every station.
I guess this is a positive aspect of the Melbourne system where the doors are 'released' (by the driver) and passengers need to press a button to open them if needed. Otherwise they stay closed to retain the warmth (or coolth in summer).
Nsw trains still have guards? Melbourne trains got rid of guards years ago. These days I think the drivers are used to controlling the doors as well as the throttle and break. In fact most stations have either CCTV TV screens or mirrors at the front of the platforms, right next to where the driver cabin stops
It's pretty normal worldwide, not just Melbourne. My dad's worked with Rail NSW a lot throughout the years and still keeps in contact with some people there, they've been trying to get rid of guards for decades now to catch up to the rest of the world but the unions are too strong to let it happen. The reality is that those CCTV cameras are more than enough (and more than some other systems get, look at the tube), but it's just an easy talking point so there it goes.
@@lotto77102 Many railways world wide still have Guards including NSW and Queensland in Australia, Victoria had a number of incidents were people died under trains as drivers missed seeing them on the camera, NSW decided the risk was too great, nether the less Guards and indeed drivers will eventually be gone and the trains will all be automated eventually
This type of thing happens around the world, so don't feel left out. In Boston, Massachusetts, the 3rd oldest electrified underground metro system in the world, had issues with its then new Type 8 LRVs it purchased from Ansaldo-Breda in 1997. The Green Line light rail line has some of the tightest curves as the line runs under the streets. Due to the tight radius, there are special requirements for the builder, therefore, the "T" can't purchase off-the-shelf trams for the Green Line. The first order arrived in 1999 and the Type 8s derailed in the tunnel after getting stuck on the tight curve entering Boyleston Street, causing millions of dollars in damage to both the tunnel and the brand-new light rail vehicle. The incident prompted the "T" to pull the vehicles from service and have them retrofitted with new bogies that could negotiate the curves better. It was a full 2-years before the new Type 8s finally entered revenue service and cost us millions in tax-payer funds to fix the tunnel and pay for the retrofit.
I reckon they should add reversible seats like the v sets and oscar’s, that’s a big problem with no reversible seats, not everyone likes travelling backwards and that goes for about half of the passengers on that train
The fixed seats are one of the reasons why the NIF will be my most hated train in my opinion. Also, stations on the Eastern Suburbs, City Circle and North Shore Lines cannot fit a 10 car set, because these stations are only long enough for 8 carriages.
I have a memory that the D set carriages are a little shorter than the H set cars so a 10-car D set train is only very slightly longer than an 8-car H set. So they might fit okay. You can get an idea for this length by looking at where the "10" and "8" markers are on stations.
I've ridden on fixed seats around the world, given these seats have tray tables, arm rests and USB charging from memory, I'd take them (as long as comfy) over direction changing any day... Although it could have been a revenue multiplier if they'd numbered the seats and allowed people to book a chosen seat for an extra couple of dollars(choosing direction of travel). The Newcastle and Blue mountains routes get really busy at times.
@@static-san a 10 car set is 40 meters longer than an 8 car oscar. The carriages might be slightly shorter but its still 2 extra carriages apparently the new plan is to run them from the terminal through the dive
Excellent video and excellent reporting. I am gobsmacked that it will be 5 years since the first Dset was delivered and they haven't carried one paying passenger DISGRACEFUL!! I hate the fact that they have fixed seating. Maybe we should get Victoria to build our trains because they are building trams and trains for Melbourne. The crew that were originally trained must now be retrained to get accredited. Great video, well done 👏 👍
@@CatTerrist That is a 100% lie. The previous Government made it clear they didn't want it made here. They were in the middle of a manufacturing and union busting spree that was happening during there term.
Nice video. It might be worth noting that that mp isn't entirely wrong. Whilst somewhat hyperbolic in his expression, the trains really didn't fit the blue mountains tunnels which resulting in millions being spent on expanding the width of many of the ten tunnels deviation. The organisation of these trains has been an absolute mess and it really does fuel the question of who should be in charge of the future of transport.
I think arguing with the union is an understatement. When, in fact, they were having rolling strikes that were causing a lot of disruption across the entire network. This had nothing to do with safety as you can see with the other comments in the stream, it was all about protectionism. Transport unions in general are just too powerful and blackmail government by holding the community ransom. It was also a deliberate decision to purchase trains that were consistent with the rest of the greater metropolitan fleet in terms of loading gauge. The Blue Mountains line needed modifications to accommodate the wider trains. But that was always a part of the program, and it was a point in time where a decision needed to be made as to whether or not to have a consistent flight that can be deployed flexibly across the entire network Versus one set of rolling stock that is constraint to the Blue Mountains. The V sets had a double whammy with respect to the platform gap through being narrower rolling stock, and also the doors located at the end of the carriages, so on curved platforms. The door was generally further away from the platform edge. The new trains will go along way to harmonising the gap with the rest of the greater metropolitan flight fleet.
The workers turned up, and were locked out of work. And I can imagine how much you'd be carrying on if your daughter or granddaughter was smeared along the platform edge, out of sight of the driver due to camera angles, glare or dust, or a driver focusing on something ahead.
The union didn't have rolling strikes. Over the 6+ years this was in dispute, we had maybe 3 (+ or - a day) of 4 hour strikes during the middle of the day 10am-2pm. The ONLY day where there were no trains for the entire day, was because the government effectively locked out the workers.
The NSW government could have had a great replacement for the widely successful (but aging) V sets. But it's been misstep after misstep such as: - They decided to penny pinch by awarding the contract to an overseas company. Talk about not having faith in their own state. - Because they went with an "off the shelf" design rather than custom, they bought a train that was too long for many of our tunnels and platforms, costing a lot of money in modifying our system. - Because they went with an "off the shelf" design rather than custom, they bought a train that had irreversible seats, despite the fact that the trains they're replacing do, as do most suburban trains. This means many passengers will travel hundreds of kilometres a week backwards. - They tried to penny pinch even further by designing the setup of these trains to be able to operate without a guard, and giving the driver responsibility of the doors, looking through shoddy cameras. This would result in loss of jobs and possibly loss of lives. Then when the government gets challenged for this, they blame the unions not themselves. The end result is we have 5 year old trains that still haven't entered service. What a joke. The NSW government of the day didn't cut corners with the then new V sets, and look at how many years they've served us, day after day, getting the job done.
I remember Andrew Constance (minister at the time) publicly saying that removal of guards would be great as it lessened the power of transport unions. So there was a political agenda on the part of the then Liberal state government.
The V sets hearken back to the earliest designs of Sydney and NSW trains which were more-or-less modelled after American "saloon" cars. Thus the vestibule at the ends and the doors into the passenger compartment. It's a design intended for long distance regional journeys, not commuter journeys or urban travel. A lot of American non-metro trains still use this design. Sydney is kind of stuck with it because our working envelope makes double decker trains actually viable.
They trains have journeys of close to three hours, from places such as Lithgow, where it can be extremely cold by our standards, and can snow. Thus the vestibules help keep bad weather out. They also help prevent stench from toilets penetrating the cabins.
No train will ever be better than a V Set, it’s really a great vibe for long distance travel from Sydney to Gosford, Newcastle or Lithgow. I do love the H Sets too but the V Sets are like being in a plane, and the sound of them are just so good and relaxing, they are so cozy and comfortable for long distance travelling, as well as the reverse able seats. I honestly hope they don’t scrap them to when they retire, or at least keep them for emergency trains in case if a D Set breaks down or something. V Sets forever ❤
Thanks for the video, new sub here! But know ur channel for awhile, though it is sad to give up the v sets everything needs a replacement at some point, sad that the seats are fixed but I am excited about the usb ports and all, that will definitely be suited on long journeys if you need to do important work! Again great video 😊
Getting new rolling stock into service seems to be a common problem here in the UK too, with some fleets 4 years late. The causes are varied, ranging from the "software problems" (Why do they make control systems so complicated, anyway? Trains used to work almost straight out of the box). Safety issues could have been sorted at the design and manufacturing stage if only the train crews were brought in early to check. A case in point was the drivers' windscreen on the Hitachi trains for Scotrail which had to be modified as the drivers were getting false images though them. The unions are protective of their members jobs, but I see no reason why drivers should not open and close doors at stations provided that the cameras are adequate. I still think that a guard should be on the train for revenue protection, passenger assistance, and possibly able to deal with emergencies including restricted driving if required.
I imagine control systems can get more complicated as they get linked up to more advanced signalling systems that allow trains to run closer to one another e.g. ATC vs CBTC. in my country, while previously it tooks 3 months for a new train to be tested locally, now it can take 14 months. & one of the trains' pantographs still managed to entangle with the overhead power wires soon after testing
I'm not a big fan of the loss of the reversible seats. However I'm looking forward to the mobile charging as someone who uses their phone A LOT. I'm disappointed though that the new trains don't have luggage racks though. That's a missed opportunity.
By the way another great topic and video, I'd love someone to do a video on guard & driver operating model if its something in your area of knowledge...
Sorry for the late response, I could definitely look in to doing that! I’ve been planning a whole heap of videos similar to this but on different topics and with my own knowledge of both the guard and driving sides of trains I could definitely do something like that in the next month or two. :)
So the cameras had issues. How do we fix that? Improve the cameras? Install platform based cameras? Add other types of sensors? No, that would be too clever. Instead we have guards. And the changes to the trains actually downgrade the functionality of the train. For example, its now impossible to have doors that open on demand (a passenger pushes a button). So if the weather is stinking hot or freezing cold, tough. Those doors will open and then stay open for the duration of a stop. And there are a bunch of things that are technically stupid but are a consequence of the union's demands.
@@tfsuppNot directly, no. What you did say about NSW though is "unions running the state". And in this context, you are implying unions do not run the state of Victoria. So my point was to say "What ever NSW is doing seems to be working for the rail network, because it's amongst the better networks in the country". I'm not saying it's anywhere near perfect though of course because it's not. But do I want it to be more like the Melbourne rail network? No I do not.
@@OldAussieAdsonce again reading things in a descussion that are not there and then making assumptions without facts. You sound like your ego is hurt, is it, are you a union member thats part of this issue, I don't know, but i also don't make any assumptions just personal observations and ask questions. You assume, I think melbourne trains are better, never said it. You state sydney trains are working better, without quoting proven facts, so its an assumption creating your opinion and untill proved its just an opinion, which if fine in a debate as long as it used as an opinion not a bullying tactic. You can assume you know my opinion but you don't, as I have not stated it, so my suggestion is, get your facts correct before putting your foot in mouth. Ps. I personal don't care which is better than the other, or which state is better. My personal opinion is its a crap argument with no benefit it Australia, unions having political influence is a different matter it once again don't jump to conclusions what I mean by my opinion.
I wish they had more in-depth coverage on New train sets to get better in-depth coverage on what makes them what they are as a model... They are good looking sets
4.45: My money is on them starting on the Blue Mountains line first. That Line is exclusively operated by the now ageing V sets beyond Springwood (i.e. most of the scheduled services) whereas Central Coast Newcastle trains are exclusively H "OSCAR" sets on weekends and half V sets and half H sets on weekdays.
Yes it was mentioned in the video that guards would be implemented, what I was mainly mentioning is how they were built with the intention of not having guards. Thanks for watching the video 😊
I believe the D sets have now been modified to require guards. Whereas with their previous configuration, they could be used with or without guards. It's the later that put the unions in a tizzy. Though rightfully so in my opinion.
In the UK we had a load of strikes over DOO (Driver Only Operation) a few years back and the union mandated that the door controls in the cabs were REMOVED (necessitating a guard being on the train as you'd have to leave the cab to release the doors from one of the regular passenger doors)
One curious thing ive seen is that in some metros in China with DOO, they mandate the driver to be standing outside the train and look down the train as they close the door to ensure nobody is hurt or in danger. Of course this requires perfectly straight platforms which china could do, having only started building most of the metros in the last couple decades but yea. Would be interesting.
@@bananadrag5824 On the other hand in Singapore the train doors are programmed to close by themselves once the train is due to depart, in order to keep on time on its timetable. A previous transport minister even suggested the doors may close before everyone has managed to board so as not to hold up the next train arriving at the station
They are good trains, plagued by politics.... nothing more, nothing less. The fact they have set unused for such a long time is proof of how backward the rail unions are.The trains were ordered by the state govt from a reputable manufacturure, the union whipped up a silly campaign to have them stopped for use. A complete waste of valuable state resources, which the unions could have allowed entry to service much much earlier. The V sets have been good for what they are, but for wheelchair and restrictive passenger usage, they are terrible. The new trains arent perfect (the silly arguments of "they have fixed seating" for example) - but the campaign to have them kept off the rails is madness. And the silly idiot MP's (Mark Buttigieg!) who keep shouting "but they dont fit the tunnels" are ignoring the fact that it was KNOWN they didnt fit, but the tunnels have been modernised to bring the small section of rail which doesn match the loading gauge of the rest of the state - he is truly a braindead fool.
Of course they will start operation on the Central Coast/Newcastle Line before anywhere else - that line still have V sets, which are the most comfortable trains that were ever built, whereas my line, the South Coast Line, have the uncomfortable H set (Oscar) trains that are the worst train I have ever travelled on !!!
The Dud sets the guard less part would of been the Achilles heel if a camera was vandalised with spray paint or had became faulty. The Driver would of had to get out of their seat look down the platform to see if it was clear and safe to close the doors.
I think the new intercity trains should have improved quiet carriages. Perhaps these carriages require a specialised quiet carriage opal card and if a regular card is produced during a ticket inspection the commuter is fined, also have a decibel meter/detector ever few metres and when an ignorant commuter talks above a certain volume for a sustained time a clear and regular volume pre recorded voice asks them to keep the noise down and consider their fellow passengers. The tech also detects Chinese, Indian, Spanish, Phillipine and Arabic speakers and a pre recorded notice in their langauges are also triggered. If they ignore the announcement the announcement repeats This way psychological pressure is put on them to pay heed as they would also be drawing the attention of fellow passengers.
Hi mate, nice video I used to live in Sydney years ago, i hope on making a trip to there from overseas in the next year or so, these D sets look fantastic ngl, i hope to ride on them when i'm down there. And btw whats the last little piece of music name at 10:08 called?
@@tsetstransport Sorry, I searched for it but numerous other music of the same name appear, could you please reply with a link of the vid you used or did you get the song from elsewhere like Spotify?
Wouldn"t call them problems. It was a deliberate attempt to not put guards from the Government and the desperation of not wanting to pay what they were supposed to. That is why no upgrades were made
Interesting, so trains causing an argument which then somehow affects commuters with full on shutdowns is 'not a problem'? And to correct you, upgrades *are* being made to allow for guards.
The first generation V sets are nowhere near 60 years old, 54 at most. in reality the V sets in service today are at their oldest 45 years old and more commonly around 40. Please get the maths right.
What maths? From all I can see, 54 is fairly close to 60? Again a mistake on your behalf as I make it quite clear that I’m mentioning V sets as a whole. Read that twice if you must.
@@tsetstransport irrelevant cause the 54 year old ones aren't around and havent been for nearly 20 years. Didn't mean to be rude, my point just was its a bit misleading when in reality they are only around 40.
@@DennosManCave Customer comfort is mostly unparalleled (excluding disabilities), lets be real, Milleniums, Waratahs and even the first 30 Oscars have some pretty crappy seats
The 1970 sets which there were few cars, with the motor cars converted to carriages in 1980, are long gone. The next oldest date from PTC Of NSW days of 1977 making them 47. The small first batch of outwardly very similar design from 1970 were called U sets until they were integrated with V sets after they were demotored as they weren't compatible with the Vs. The majority are from throughout the 1980s built in several batches.
Not too sure about them doing NIF services via the North Shore or via Bondi but I have been tracking train testing and recently they’ve been doing a lot of testing on those parts of the lines. We’ll have to wait and see.
I don't understand why they still use guards on the train. Almost all trains in Europe are set up to be one-man operation. Some operators have cameras or mirrors, but some don't for example DB doesn't have mirrors, so the driver opens the cab window to look if all the doors have closed. No need for guards.
@@waynerobinson4730 you have so many cameras on this train you can see every door. If someone gets in the door when it closes the train will report the door not closing. This was never a problem in other countries.
They should have been designed from the start for automatic operation, as per the metro trains and overseas trains. They could put a guard on them for security.
Haven't watched the video yet, but what went wrong, at the start, was instead of building locally, the NSW govt went overseas. This is the same issue with the XPT replacement fleet, and in fact the CAF Civity units being built have known issues with cracking frames, etc, overseas. Once again the NSW Govt has shown they never passed kindy, being that stupid.
Its lucky that the cracks found in Civity units 3 years ago in 2021 have been rectified and the manufacturing process has been updated to prevent this happening moving forward then isnt it? The 195's /331's in the UK have been pretty reliable in service. The 397's on TPE have also been favouribly praised for their reliability. Lets not use this childish "should have been built in Australia" nonsensical argument. For the same price the Govt could have ordered from Australia, but would only have had a budget for 60 carriages, not 117 carriages. Its economics 101. And lets be real - we cant fill jobs here as it is.
All this worry about lack of guard features is ridiculous. DOO (Driver Only Operation) is already used in countless places including australia. For goodness sake just fix the camera quality and it will be fine e
D sets may seam better but there i one major problem for people who can not travel backwards the D set train bets are fixed half the seats in the carages face backwords. if your traveling from a station to the city you can not be garantied a forward facing seat past the first couple of stations. so for me I can't travel backwards or stand for a long the trains will have to be washed if people get sick
The RBTU doesn't want driver only operation. It would mean massive job losses as once it is proven on an intercity you can be guaranteed most other lines would become DOO. That's despite an injury that would have been prevented if it was DOO happening at Burwood yesterday. The union is stuck between a rock and a hard place. To make it safer they would have massive job losses. Yesterday's injury I've never seen happen before. So an once in a lifetime workplace accident for a guard vs the livelihoods of all guards. How many guards work and this is the only accident to happen.
But that's technology.. jobs change. Any change to driver only operations would be gradual, say over 30yr life of a fleet. Unlikely to be many job losses, just natural attrition as people retire or move elsewhere (see what happened in Melbourne decades ago for example) Thankfully the unions of yesteryear didn't have the same attitudes, or Sydney would still be running steam trains to save the jobs of the stoker and coal runner.
Sydney trains recently settled a $1 million court case for a person who was dragged along the platform by a train. Their predicament had failed to be noticed by both the guard and platform dispatcher. Countless studies have shown that having guards on trains does NOT make them inherently safer than those without them. The unions “safety” concerns with the fleet were over workforce/industrial protectionism. Same union that doesn’t have issues with DOO ops in other Australia cities I might add.
I knew this would come up. This was literally the first time I have ever heard a guard falling out of the train. The problem with DOO is the driver rushing closing the doors to make up for late running which is frequent in Melbourne and why you are always hearing about kids being left on the train or platform as a mother is trying to get a pram on or off. The guards are there to prevent this happening. On stations with no staff they are there to help the disabled get on or off the train which is definetly something a driver should never do. So until we have completely level boarding and PSD's on our intercity lines there should always be a guard.
@@joshporter5422it doesn't matter if it's safer. The RBTU is an union, it's interests is to look after employees. If you did a DOO but allowed guards to sit on the train and twiddle their thumbs with a guarantee of no redundancies it would be accepted in 2 seconds.
Yes but it means in 30 years time there will be less jobs than if they play hardball like they're doing now. Meaning more members, and more people get paid. That's the entire purpose of the union look after its members present and in the future. They don't represent the government, or the general public they look after their members
There was an election and political opportunity. It’s as simple is that. Rail safety regulators approved the operating model of the train. Independent rail safety experts were also engaged who approved the operating model.
I think you've hit the nail on the head but also there was an issue with lack of consultation. There were no union representatives consulted on the operating model. The same union accepted driver operated doors on Melbourne's Metro trains and alternate guard operations on regional trains in Victoria. The issue was how it was approached. The union picked this issue and dug their heels in until an election came up like you said. I'm not saying that the operating model proposed is good, bad or otherwise, however when the employer is actively trying to make the union irrelevant the government can't be too surprised that the union decided to dig their heels in. And it worked, and now barely any decisions are getting made inside the house without checking with the union first.
An excellent example of expedient political decisions getting in the way of good evidence-based engineering decisions. I remember when Bin-Chicken proudly boasted in parliament a 20% saving by having the trains designed and built in South Korea. Just a real shame the savings were more than consumed by modifications to the tunnels and platforms, along with all the other civil works just to name a few. On top of that, the trains are configured to run in 4, 6 and 10 car sets; the 10 car sets are next to being as useful as tits on a bull because there are only very few stations able to accommodate them! When they finally come into service, I foresee all of the USB charging ports being bogged up with some kids chewing gum and the tray table being broken, resulting in a maintenance nightmare.
Maybe the main issue was the poor planning that went between transport for nsw and the manufacturer. I mean, if the communication was better maybe the trains would've been better? or maybe the manufacturer just didn't produce a good quality train.
Frankly the guards were annoyed they were going to be turned into customer service reps and also one person operation has become normalized elsewhere around the world without any uptick in unsafe operation. It's nonsense to state one man operation with the cameras - which are not bad like you try to say - is a problem The unions have onlygot themselves tobame if the public and the various state govts ofeither side dont like them and I too, amfed up to the back teeth with their BS over far too long trying to claim safety when V-sets are falling apart garbage. The Labor member idiot knows that the narrow tunnels after Blackheath and the platforms needing to be fixed were always an issue the last Labor govt refused to fix. The LNP put that project into action and that was why the Blue Mountains were getting the trains after Central Coast, the program of work that had been in place *before* the trains were ordered would be complete. The work was finalised in 2020 when the entire line between Mt Victoria and Lithgow was closed due to damage by the Black Summer fires. This was why the H-Sets never went beyond Springwood and why the V-Sets have lingered due to inaction to fix this problem. A new train was *never* going to be narrow like the V-Sets so the Labor member trying to point score over"too wide" trains is just complete rot. The previous Labor govt refused to fix, it now has been fixed. Also The actual quiet truth is the present Labor govt dont eactly like the train unions either. The unions need to get out of the way and these long overdue far safer trains be allowed to operate.
Yeah Hopefully they fix the issues and put the Guards in the new Dumb Set trains. I remember back in late 1983 they Electrified the line from Gosford to Newcastle. The official opening was early in 1984. I had caught a single deck U-Set to Sydney from Broadmeadow. The Train network had a railway station at Newcastle not a Dumb Street Tram that nobody wants in Hunter Street. Why get rid of the Newcastle Railway Station, it comes down to the Council and the Developers want money. Nowdays in the 2020s with Dumb Set Trains with no guards, and a Driverless Metro Train on the Bankstown Line... Uh Huh Great work with the Dumb Set Trains and from Dumb Street to Newcastle Railway Station. : )
There’s almost always station staff who can help, if there are none at the station, the guard of the train that you’re on will most likely help and get the ramp.
Would you believe in Adelaide the driver gets out of the cab and takes the ramp that's next to the first set of doors inside the train and lays out for the passenger. I was surprised to see it when there for holidays from Sydney. I notice that in Melbourne the designated wheel chair boarding point it also the front of the train so the driver can do it. NSW is one of the few places that has a guard that is stationary inside their own cabin. Even in London where guards are still present north of the river ( south London is driver only operation even with trains that cross the river), the guard roams the train to check tickets and is able to operate the doors from a console at each set of doors. And that set of doors will be the first and last to close. I've not seen any other railway outside of nsw where it's a safety requirement for guards to keep their door open so they can look out the train whilst it is arriving and departing the platform. At best they pull the window down and look out. Otherwise it's Darwins law unfortunately. I understand having the guards for remain open was one of the changes on the NIF trains on the unions safety objections list.
@@raymondlowe7099 I MOVED FROM PERTH WHERE WE HAD DRIVER ONLY OPERATIONS, BUT WE HAD LEVEL BOARDING AND 1 INCH GAP BETWEEN TRAIN AND PLATFORM ON ALL OUR SUBURBAN TRAINS
![[TH] RNT vs SPG - VCT Ascension Pacific - Day 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RUTkf8Detj8/mqdefault.jpg)
Yet another downside of these over V-sets is that if you can't use stairs you spend up to THREE HOURS facing inwards. V-sets have forwards facing seats at vestibule level.
The reason is space my friend, I’m sorry that you can use the stairs.
It will be interesting to see what travelling on a D set will be like since I’m from Newcastle. Hopefully on the other hand some of the V sets get preserved for museums, charter services, bought by private owners and NSW Transport Heritage Expo organisations.
The fixed seats are an absolute disgrace, I believe we should we need to fix them immediately, another loss made by the liberals 🤦
The reason for fixed seats is to give more padding...
Want seats harder than the Oscars? Then you can have reversible seats. That's the only reason they have fixed seats - it gives more padding and meet fire life safety requirements
The crap point is, you can't change the direction of the seats! Even the old +50yo trains can do that!
They did this in favour of USB ports, power sockets, tray tables and more ergonomic/comfortable seating. Though I think it may open a can of worms for maintenance costs… highly doubt they’ll keep up with maintaining the USB ports (they’ll likely break often), the tray tables (vandals will break them) etc.
The V-sets have the most comfortable seats for those long trips that could be 2-3 hours.
Sure, the acceleration is slow, the brakes aren't great, and a long list of other issues. But give me those comfy reversible seats any day over a H or D set.
Completely agree with you, the H sets seats especially are extremely uncomfortable and I know from experience the pain of them going on the Sydney to Newcastle trip several times.
Thanks for watching!
I often do a South Coast Journey on the H Set and I don’t see how the seats are uncomfortable, but that’s probably because I’ve never been on a V Set. Every time I’ve gone on the Central Coast line I always seem to get an H Set.
But I’m 11 years old, so that probably explains it
Yes -the rolling museum that is the Newcasle Express.
The V sets could have been a "template" for the new replacement trains to be built in NSW. That would have been excellent forward thinking, given the build things in Australia ideas that have recently sprung up.
This actually seems like a news report lol😂😂😂great job
Great work, enjoyed this one just as much as the XPT replacement.
Thank you so much! :)
A lot of the dramas around design issues were brought up very early in the project, but all concerns were ignored. In the beginning (late 2014?), they sought an off the shelf design with luggage racks and tray tables (obviously inspired by European Intercity trains), but quickly found that no suitable high floor design existed. That didn't stop their other goals though such as specifically seeking out non-reversible seating. A few years later, there was a Sydney Morning Herald article with a person from Transport going on about how everyone else only uses fixed seating, even Japan (which is a huge lie). So obviously they made these decisions before design and needed to find ways to justify them.
As with the operating model, there was a memo put out in 2016 that they had 3 options - as is with guards, the customer service position, and no guard, and they were going with the latter option, which generated the expected uproar. By around 2018, they had slipped towards the Customer Service position as a non Safeworking qualified position, which was received as unsatisfactory. Though if you talked to the managers at the time, they insisted it was a qualified position. Around 2020, the proposed operating model was something stupid like 2 guards, one sitting in a seat watching the cameras and on the phone with the driver to communicate the departure, while the other was doing platform duties before coming back in due to TI crew door and no bell. Obviously this was never going to work but you could tell management was desperate. And now, here we are.
My understanding is various systemwide improvements have been proposed, but never acted upon. That Burwood incident comes to mind. Why don't they have windows that guards can lean out of like in Japan if it's such a concern?
The windows guards could lean out of was suggested, but promptly ignored. I know, because I suggested it!
2:18 best part, shows why it didn’t come with guard features and why it was such a faliure! Explained well, easy to understand reasons why they broke down every 69 minutes on testing. Nice job explaining this 🎉 🙂
But fr tho, it is a good explanation and a good video, nice 👍
This might be unpopular but D sets are actually significantly better than V sets, except for seat comfort. D sets have open vestibules and larger toilets, as well as PID displays and wider doors. During peak times the open vestibules and wider doors are really important to reduce dwell times at stations and fit more trains in. People just miss the V sets for nostalgia ( I do as well, but progress must occur). And when its crowded most people wont even have a seat so seat comfort isn't really a big deal. And lastly, D sets can reach 160km/h, which is useful if we were to ever upgrade the rail lines for higher speed running. I just think the government should implement them faster, They were due to be introduced in 2021 but have been delayed for so long.
The original plan was that guards would be changed into service attendant like positions that would patrol the train, not that they would be removed completely. The change was to make them no longer have a "safeworking" role. Currently the guard cannot leave their cab due to their inability to undertake safeworking roles elsewhere in the train. Not saying it's good bad or otherwise, that's just the rule.
As for trains not fitting the track comments that the MLC made, this is a common misconception. Because the guard wasn't going to be controlling the doors, it was decided that the train should be as close to the platform as possible and should fit the Medium electric Kinematic Envelop (KE) which most of the network had been progressively upgraded to over the last few decades. The last hold out was the Blue Mountains line beyond Springwood through to Lithgow. These upgrades are similar to when the V set was introduced almost 50 years ago when it was introduced. To be honest, that KE upgrade was probably the one thing done right with the D set. Otherwise you would have built a train that would have had a larger platform gap at all other stations on the network than the OSCAR it was displacing.
Do you have any more information on what safe working role guards perform on the newest trains? (not the d sets) I'm curious to know.
I would have loved to see the guards take on a role walking the train, giving people safety/comfort, checking Tickets and operating the doors from anywhere within the train (like the UK operating model).
This would have maintained safety for boarding (the guard closes the doors from an override at the door closet to them anywhere in the train) and once doors are closed they close their override door with the driver also having visuals for extra safety from cctv.
@@DAEMTAM I'm no expert on what exactly the wording is and I'm happy to be corrected. The guards under the current model are responsible for releasing the train from the platform. That's the process of closing doors and watching the train leave. They need to do this by physically checking the length of the train visually. At stations like Fassifern the guard needs to walk half the length of the train to be able to see the front carriages before walking back to their compartment and giving the all clear. The guard is also supposed to watch the train enter the platform as well.
I'll go you one better on an alternate "walking train model" for the guard, in Victoria on Vline's Vlocity trains, the guard has a remote control for the doors and patrols the train. These are 3 car sets as opposed to the 10 car sets, however this function of patrolling the train was intended to be primarily for the outer suburban and intercity areas as I understand it.
Another part of the proposal that was not very well covered by in general was that not all the train doors would open. Only those engaged by passengers would open. So in the city, that would likely be pretty much every door. In the outer areas less doors. This would have also addressed customer concerns in the Blue mountains about the lack of inner doors on the new trains in the middle of winter with Mt. Victoria and Lithgow getting down to 0 degrees or lower. The doors much like in Melbourne would have closed after a period of time. The trains post modification will have all doors open now and only the guard can open the doors. This is an example of how the integrated design has now been changed for a poorer customer outcome than intended (not saying the change was good, bad or otherwise).
Communication around these trains was just poor. Both in preparing staff for the change and getting the message out of what the actual changes were. It would one day make a great case study for how NOT to do effective change management.
@@thebats5270 thank you for the detailed reply, love the remote idea.
I really wish NSW would adopt customer button operation of doors across every model that supports it, including the light rail. It works well for hot, cold, windy and rainy days. People would get used to it if it was consistent!
It frustrates me no end that some politicians use this argument knowing full well it is a lie. The decision to widen the KE was long overdue and meant that we got wider trains that took advantage of the KE that existed everywhere except west of Springwood. Yes, there are other issues on the DSets but let’s concentrate on them and not make up lies. It is a slur on the professional staff at Sydney Trains.
@@DAEMTAM it does on the intercity fleet such as the oscars and the ex G sets. The reason for the door controls is to prevent doors from opening on platforms that are short
Having been on V Sets and H Sets, the one thing I found great about the former was the luggage racks above the seats, whereas on the latter, a large number of seats were being taken up by suitcases because there was nowhere else to put them.
Where two seats are back-to-back on a V-set, you can put suitcases in that space.
@@JulianSortland, done that too.
Both V sets and H sets have luggage racks. You just need to know where to sit.
@@OldAussieAds, certainly when I travelled on the H set, the racks were not above the seats but in the vestibule area - not particularly convenient if you want to keep an eye on your bags!
@@jodij2366Yes you're right. That's what I meant. At least there's seats there though.
Fixed seats are a major mistake esp if your a person who cant travel backwards good like finding a seat in peak hour.
Before getting these trains, the state government and Transport for NSW should have sat down with the union and said, "Look guys, this is what we're proposing. What do you think?" and had open discussions and agreements from the get go. Come to some kind of compromise, like retraining guards as passenger service attendants and giving some guarantees about pay and conditions. Drivers, also, needed assurances about safety and liability when operating doors and assisting special needs passengers. Train crew in NSW are already operate in a culture of extreme paranoia about liability and blame as-is, so to add these 'scary changes' to the workplace was only going to cause problems and dramas. The government and TfNSW clear had no idea about train crew culture. A basic understanding would have avoided these issues. Ultimately, it was the arrogance and secrecy of the government that derailed this rollout.
These trains should be been manufactured here in Australia
One benefit (that most people don't realise) of the door between the vestibule and the seats on the V-Set is that it stops the cold air getting into the seated area during winter, it regulates the temperature/air con where people are sitting... This is especially important on the Blue Mountains line in Winter, with the new train being fully open, all the heat will escape at every station.
I guess this is a positive aspect of the Melbourne system where the doors are 'released' (by the driver) and passengers need to press a button to open them if needed. Otherwise they stay closed to retain the warmth (or coolth in summer).
I hope the d sets get scraped before the v sets
That would be funny
Lol it wood@@converserook7655
V Sets forever ❤️
Nsw trains still have guards?
Melbourne trains got rid of guards years ago. These days I think the drivers are used to controlling the doors as well as the throttle and break. In fact most stations have either CCTV TV screens or mirrors at the front of the platforms, right next to where the driver cabin stops
and look at how bad Melbournes trains are. Especially when it comes to passenger safety.
The NSW Intercity system is far different then the Vic Suburban one, the curves and grades at platforms are at a more difficult level in NSW
@@jimmyjames7529 Ah, I see.
Makes sense
It's pretty normal worldwide, not just Melbourne. My dad's worked with Rail NSW a lot throughout the years and still keeps in contact with some people there, they've been trying to get rid of guards for decades now to catch up to the rest of the world but the unions are too strong to let it happen.
The reality is that those CCTV cameras are more than enough (and more than some other systems get, look at the tube), but it's just an easy talking point so there it goes.
@@lotto77102 Many railways world wide still have Guards including NSW and Queensland in Australia, Victoria had a number of incidents were people died under trains as drivers missed seeing them on the camera, NSW decided the risk was too great, nether the less Guards and indeed drivers will eventually be gone and the trains will all be automated eventually
This type of thing happens around the world, so don't feel left out.
In Boston, Massachusetts, the 3rd oldest electrified underground metro system in the world, had issues with its then new Type 8 LRVs it purchased from Ansaldo-Breda in 1997. The Green Line light rail line has some of the tightest curves as the line runs under the streets. Due to the tight radius, there are special requirements for the builder, therefore, the "T" can't purchase off-the-shelf trams for the Green Line.
The first order arrived in 1999 and the Type 8s derailed in the tunnel after getting stuck on the tight curve entering Boyleston Street, causing millions of dollars in damage to both the tunnel and the brand-new light rail vehicle. The incident prompted the "T" to pull the vehicles from service and have them retrofitted with new bogies that could negotiate the curves better. It was a full 2-years before the new Type 8s finally entered revenue service and cost us millions in tax-payer funds to fix the tunnel and pay for the retrofit.
Current V sets
DJ series
DI series
DC series
DK series
DT series
Will be gone when the D sets enter service
Correct. It’ll be sad to seem the go, that’s for sure. :)
DJ- Disc Jockey
DI- Digital Internal
DC- Driving Control
DK- Donkey Kong
DT- Driving Trailer
Just a joke of course lol
I reckon they should add reversible seats like the v sets and oscar’s, that’s a big problem with no reversible seats, not everyone likes travelling backwards and that goes for about half of the passengers on that train
The fixed seats are one of the reasons why the NIF will be my most hated train in my opinion. Also, stations on the Eastern Suburbs, City Circle and North Shore Lines cannot fit a 10 car set, because these stations are only long enough for 8 carriages.
Well its good the D sets arent supposed to go on those lines, isnt it?
8 car D sets are an option, i must inform you!
I have a memory that the D set carriages are a little shorter than the H set cars so a 10-car D set train is only very slightly longer than an 8-car H set. So they might fit okay. You can get an idea for this length by looking at where the "10" and "8" markers are on stations.
I've ridden on fixed seats around the world, given these seats have tray tables, arm rests and USB charging from memory, I'd take them (as long as comfy) over direction changing any day... Although it could have been a revenue multiplier if they'd numbered the seats and allowed people to book a chosen seat for an extra couple of dollars(choosing direction of travel). The Newcastle and Blue mountains routes get really busy at times.
@@static-san a 10 car set is 40 meters longer than an 8 car oscar. The carriages might be slightly shorter but its still 2 extra carriages apparently the new plan is to run them from the terminal through the dive
Excellent video and excellent reporting. I am gobsmacked that it will be 5 years since the first Dset was delivered and they haven't carried one paying passenger DISGRACEFUL!!
I hate the fact that they have fixed seating. Maybe we should get Victoria to build our trains because they are building trams and trains for Melbourne. The crew that were originally trained must now be retrained to get accredited. Great video, well done 👏 👍
The D sets were offered up for build to local builders, however they did not tender designs that fitted the brief that Sydney Transport asked for.
@CatTerrist They couldn't have been worse than what we got from Korea. I hope the NSW Government has learned from this but I highly doubt it.
@@CatTerrist That is a 100% lie. The previous Government made it clear they didn't want it made here. They were in the middle of a manufacturing and union busting spree that was happening during there term.
Don't even need to go to victoria, Broadmeadow in newcastle still makes locomotives. Ie UGL C44s
@Reaper1770 you are correct and I had forgotten about that.
Nice video. It might be worth noting that that mp isn't entirely wrong. Whilst somewhat hyperbolic in his expression, the trains really didn't fit the blue mountains tunnels which resulting in millions being spent on expanding the width of many of the ten tunnels deviation. The organisation of these trains has been an absolute mess and it really does fuel the question of who should be in charge of the future of transport.
Expanding the width of those tunnels was a good outcome. It mean we didn't have narrower trains with wider platform gaps.
I think arguing with the union is an understatement.
When, in fact, they were having rolling strikes that were causing a lot of disruption across the entire network.
This had nothing to do with safety as you can see with the other comments in the stream, it was all about protectionism.
Transport unions in general are just too powerful and blackmail government by holding the community ransom.
It was also a deliberate decision to purchase trains that were consistent with the rest of the greater metropolitan fleet in terms of loading gauge. The Blue Mountains line needed modifications to accommodate the wider trains. But that was always a part of the program, and it was a point in time where a decision needed to be made as to whether or not to have a consistent flight that can be deployed flexibly across the entire network Versus one set of rolling stock that is constraint to the Blue Mountains.
The V sets had a double whammy with respect to the platform gap through being narrower rolling stock, and also the doors located at the end of the carriages, so on curved platforms. The door was generally further away from the platform edge.
The new trains will go along way to harmonising the gap with the rest of the greater metropolitan flight fleet.
Careful... speaking rationally about our transport systems is frowned up... didnt you know? 🤭🤭🤭
The workers turned up, and were locked out of work. And I can imagine how much you'd be carrying on if your daughter or granddaughter was smeared along the platform edge, out of sight of the driver due to camera angles, glare or dust, or a driver focusing on something ahead.
I'll try to word this as constructively as possible,
Unless you have worked in the industry, you have no idea.
The union didn't have rolling strikes. Over the 6+ years this was in dispute, we had maybe 3 (+ or - a day) of 4 hour strikes during the middle of the day 10am-2pm.
The ONLY day where there were no trains for the entire day, was because the government effectively locked out the workers.
The NSW government could have had a great replacement for the widely successful (but aging) V sets. But it's been misstep after misstep such as:
- They decided to penny pinch by awarding the contract to an overseas company. Talk about not having faith in their own state.
- Because they went with an "off the shelf" design rather than custom, they bought a train that was too long for many of our tunnels and platforms, costing a lot of money in modifying our system.
- Because they went with an "off the shelf" design rather than custom, they bought a train that had irreversible seats, despite the fact that the trains they're replacing do, as do most suburban trains. This means many passengers will travel hundreds of kilometres a week backwards.
- They tried to penny pinch even further by designing the setup of these trains to be able to operate without a guard, and giving the driver responsibility of the doors, looking through shoddy cameras. This would result in loss of jobs and possibly loss of lives. Then when the government gets challenged for this, they blame the unions not themselves.
The end result is we have 5 year old trains that still haven't entered service. What a joke. The NSW government of the day didn't cut corners with the then new V sets, and look at how many years they've served us, day after day, getting the job done.
I remember Andrew Constance (minister at the time) publicly saying that removal of guards would be great as it lessened the power of transport unions.
So there was a political agenda on the part of the then Liberal state government.
The V sets hearken back to the earliest designs of Sydney and NSW trains which were more-or-less modelled after American "saloon" cars. Thus the vestibule at the ends and the doors into the passenger compartment. It's a design intended for long distance regional journeys, not commuter journeys or urban travel. A lot of American non-metro trains still use this design. Sydney is kind of stuck with it because our working envelope makes double decker trains actually viable.
They trains have journeys of close to three hours, from places such as Lithgow, where it can be extremely cold by our standards, and can snow. Thus the vestibules help keep bad weather out. They also help prevent stench from toilets penetrating the cabins.
I was excited for the new set of trains
No train will ever be better than a V Set, it’s really a great vibe for long distance travel from Sydney to Gosford, Newcastle or Lithgow. I do love the H Sets too but the V Sets are like being in a plane, and the sound of them are just so good and relaxing, they are so cozy and comfortable for long distance travelling, as well as the reverse able seats. I honestly hope they don’t scrap them to when they retire, or at least keep them for emergency trains in case if a D Set breaks down or something. V Sets forever ❤
Thanks for the video, new sub here! But know ur channel for awhile, though it is sad to give up the v sets everything needs a replacement at some point, sad that the seats are fixed but I am excited about the usb ports and all, that will definitely be suited on long journeys if you need to do important work! Again great video 😊
The biggest mistake of my career was liking NIFs.
Getting new rolling stock into service seems to be a common problem here in the UK too, with some fleets 4 years late.
The causes are varied, ranging from the "software problems" (Why do they make control systems so complicated, anyway? Trains used to work almost straight out of the box).
Safety issues could have been sorted at the design and manufacturing stage if only the train crews were brought in early to check. A case in point was the drivers' windscreen on the Hitachi trains for Scotrail which had to be modified as the drivers were getting false images though them.
The unions are protective of their members jobs, but I see no reason why drivers should not open and close doors at stations provided that the cameras are adequate. I still think that a guard should be on the train for revenue protection, passenger assistance, and possibly able to deal with emergencies including restricted driving if required.
I imagine control systems can get more complicated as they get linked up to more advanced signalling systems that allow trains to run closer to one another e.g. ATC vs CBTC. in my country, while previously it tooks 3 months for a new train to be tested locally, now it can take 14 months. & one of the trains' pantographs still managed to entangle with the overhead power wires soon after testing
I spent the first minute trying to figure out where this video is talking about
I'm not a big fan of the loss of the reversible seats. However I'm looking forward to the mobile charging as someone who uses their phone A LOT. I'm disappointed though that the new trains don't have luggage racks though. That's a missed opportunity.
By the way another great topic and video, I'd love someone to do a video on guard & driver operating model if its something in your area of knowledge...
Sorry for the late response, I could definitely look in to doing that! I’ve been planning a whole heap of videos similar to this but on different topics and with my own knowledge of both the guard and driving sides of trains I could definitely do something like that in the next month or two. :)
So the cameras had issues. How do we fix that? Improve the cameras? Install platform based cameras? Add other types of sensors? No, that would be too clever. Instead we have guards. And the changes to the trains actually downgrade the functionality of the train. For example, its now impossible to have doors that open on demand (a passenger pushes a button). So if the weather is stinking hot or freezing cold, tough. Those doors will open and then stay open for the duration of a stop. And there are a bunch of things that are technically stupid but are a consequence of the union's demands.
I dont think Victoria suburban trains has had train guards on since 1995. 🤣 unions running the state 🤐
I have nothing against Melbourne or the state of Victoria. But they can't claim to have a better train network than Sydney and NSW.
@@OldAussieAds never said they did.
@@tfsuppNot directly, no. What you did say about NSW though is "unions running the state". And in this context, you are implying unions do not run the state of Victoria.
So my point was to say "What ever NSW is doing seems to be working for the rail network, because it's amongst the better networks in the country". I'm not saying it's anywhere near perfect though of course because it's not. But do I want it to be more like the Melbourne rail network? No I do not.
@@OldAussieAdsonce again reading things in a descussion that are not there and then making assumptions without facts. You sound like your ego is hurt, is it, are you a union member thats part of this issue, I don't know, but i also don't make any assumptions just personal observations and ask questions.
You assume, I think melbourne trains are better, never said it. You state sydney trains are working better, without quoting proven facts, so its an assumption creating your opinion and untill proved its just an opinion, which if fine in a debate as long as it used as an opinion not a bullying tactic.
You can assume you know my opinion but you don't, as I have not stated it, so my suggestion is, get your facts correct before putting your foot in mouth.
Ps. I personal don't care which is better than the other, or which state is better. My personal opinion is its a crap argument with no benefit it Australia, unions having political influence is a different matter it once again don't jump to conclusions what I mean by my opinion.
It was fun
I wish they had more in-depth coverage on New train sets to get better in-depth coverage on what makes them what they are as a model... They are good looking sets
I love this part 2:14
4.45: My money is on them starting on the Blue Mountains line first. That Line is exclusively operated by the now ageing V sets beyond Springwood (i.e. most of the scheduled services) whereas Central Coast Newcastle trains are exclusively H "OSCAR" sets on weekends and half V sets and half H sets on weekdays.
4:09 I saw a guard on a D set at Gosford Station they will be guards on D sets
Yes it was mentioned in the video that guards would be implemented, what I was mainly mentioning is how they were built with the intention of not having guards.
Thanks for watching the video 😊
@@tsetstransportoh, ok thanks!
I believe the D sets have now been modified to require guards. Whereas with their previous configuration, they could be used with or without guards. It's the later that put the unions in a tizzy. Though rightfully so in my opinion.
In the UK we had a load of strikes over DOO (Driver Only Operation) a few years back and the union mandated that the door controls in the cabs were REMOVED (necessitating a guard being on the train as you'd have to leave the cab to release the doors from one of the regular passenger doors)
This is the model I want to see in Sydney!
Yes, the UK unions are even more militant and greedy than those in NSW.
One curious thing ive seen is that in some metros in China with DOO, they mandate the driver to be standing outside the train and look down the train as they close the door to ensure nobody is hurt or in danger. Of course this requires perfectly straight platforms which china could do, having only started building most of the metros in the last couple decades but yea.
Would be interesting.
@@bananadrag5824 On the other hand in Singapore the train doors are programmed to close by themselves once the train is due to depart, in order to keep on time on its timetable. A previous transport minister even suggested the doors may close before everyone has managed to board so as not to hold up the next train arriving at the station
Nicely done
They are good trains, plagued by politics.... nothing more, nothing less.
The fact they have set unused for such a long time is proof of how backward the rail unions are.The trains were ordered by the state govt from a reputable manufacturure, the union whipped up a silly campaign to have them stopped for use. A complete waste of valuable state resources, which the unions could have allowed entry to service much much earlier.
The V sets have been good for what they are, but for wheelchair and restrictive passenger usage, they are terrible. The new trains arent perfect (the silly arguments of "they have fixed seating" for example) - but the campaign to have them kept off the rails is madness.
And the silly idiot MP's (Mark Buttigieg!) who keep shouting "but they dont fit the tunnels" are ignoring the fact that it was KNOWN they didnt fit, but the tunnels have been modernised to bring the small section of rail which doesn match the loading gauge of the rest of the state - he is truly a braindead fool.
Of course they will start operation on the Central Coast/Newcastle Line before anywhere else - that line still have V sets, which are the most comfortable trains that were ever built, whereas my line, the South Coast Line, have the uncomfortable H set (Oscar) trains that are the worst train I have ever travelled on !!!
The Dud sets the guard less part would of been the Achilles heel if a camera was vandalised with spray paint or had became faulty. The Driver would of had to get out of their seat look down the platform to see if it was clear and safe to close the doors.
I absolutely hate sitting backwards on trains so there is the first whinge I am going to have with these new D set intercity trains
What a disaster! However, can't wait until I finally get to be on one!
Hopefully only another one or two years...🙏
I think the new intercity trains should have improved quiet carriages. Perhaps these carriages require a specialised quiet carriage opal card and if a regular card is produced during a ticket inspection the commuter is fined, also have a decibel meter/detector ever few metres and when an ignorant commuter talks above a certain volume for a sustained time a clear and regular volume pre recorded voice asks them to keep the noise down and consider their fellow passengers. The tech also detects Chinese, Indian, Spanish, Phillipine and Arabic speakers and a pre recorded notice in their langauges are also triggered. If they ignore the announcement the announcement repeats This way psychological pressure is put on them to pay heed as they would also be drawing the attention of fellow passengers.
Hi mate, nice video I used to live in Sydney years ago, i hope on making a trip to there from overseas in the next year or so, these D sets look fantastic ngl, i hope to ride on them when i'm down there. And btw whats the last little piece of music name at 10:08 called?
That’s mate :)
Sorry for the late reply, the name of the song is ‘Eclipse by Phanlr’
Hope this helped and thanks for watching!
@@tsetstransport Sorry, I searched for it but numerous other music of the same name appear, could you please reply with a link of the vid you used or did you get the song from elsewhere like Spotify?
@@velekorunoski5997 Apologies - I spent the artists name wrong change the spelling of the artists name to Phlanr and you should find it. :)
@@tsetstransport Alright i found it, its an awesome lil piece of music Thank you 😁👍
Wouldn"t call them problems. It was a deliberate attempt to not put guards from the Government and the desperation of not wanting to pay what they were supposed to. That is why no upgrades were made
Interesting, so trains causing an argument which then somehow affects commuters with full on shutdowns is 'not a problem'? And to correct you, upgrades *are* being made to allow for guards.
Only because of pressure from union members. Liberal govt had no choice. Election was close.@@tsetstransport
Only because the Libs backed down because of pressure from union members. Election was close. Just an opinion.@@tsetstransport
7.28 and yes it is snowing!
Cool!
THE V-SETS ARE FAR SUPERIOR TO THE SHITTY D-SETS
D sets are real shitboxes the V sets are still the best of the fleet
Why is it a problem if the driver is controlling the doors? On the tram and the subway it is also the driver who is doing it
The other thing about the V set trains is that they don't have Wheel chair access inside the carrraiges
I was looking at a D Set at Central last year in December, and it had a guard.
Yes, the union is looking after YOUR safety.
god i hate those things, i dread the day they make it to the bmt
Should have been built in NSW 😂
Its sad that the V sets are going since they were my first train i rode
Trains that to wide for platforms..ferries to high for bridges and cant handle big waves..cheapest tenders got the contract.
The first generation V sets are nowhere near 60 years old, 54 at most. in reality the V sets in service today are at their oldest 45 years old and more commonly around 40. Please get the maths right.
What maths? From all I can see, 54 is fairly close to 60? Again a mistake on your behalf as I make it quite clear that I’m mentioning V sets as a whole. Read that twice if you must.
@@tsetstransport irrelevant cause the 54 year old ones aren't around and havent been for nearly 20 years. Didn't mean to be rude, my point just was its a bit misleading when in reality they are only around 40.
Thats splitting hairs though isnt it. 45 years, 54 years or 60 years. Either way, they really should have been scrapped a decade ago.
@@DennosManCave Customer comfort is mostly unparalleled (excluding disabilities), lets be real, Milleniums, Waratahs and even the first 30 Oscars have some pretty crappy seats
The 1970 sets which there were few cars, with the motor cars converted to carriages in 1980, are long gone. The next oldest date from PTC Of NSW days of 1977 making them 47.
The small first batch of outwardly very similar design from 1970 were called U sets until they were integrated with V sets after they were demotored as they weren't compatible with the Vs.
The majority are from throughout the 1980s built in several batches.
The jump scare didn't scare me, it made me laugh instead.
Will the mariyung Also run on central coast via the north shore and South coast to bondi junction like oscar or no
Facepalm.
No they will be running from terminal skipping wolli creek and running through the short north
Not too sure about them doing NIF services via the North Shore or via Bondi but I have been tracking train testing and recently they’ve been doing a lot of testing on those parts of the lines. We’ll have to wait and see.
I don't understand why they still use guards on the train. Almost all trains in Europe are set up to be one-man operation. Some operators have cameras or mirrors, but some don't for example DB doesn't have mirrors, so the driver opens the cab window to look if all the doors have closed. No need for guards.
Shouldn't the driver focus on what is ahead, and the guard worry about the passengers?
@@JulianSortland why should he look forward in a station if he is stopped? Your argument is really stupid passengers don't board a moving train.
The sharp curves on Blue Mountains platforms in particular would prevent visibility along the train from the cab window.
@@waynerobinson4730 you have so many cameras on this train you can see every door. If someone gets in the door when it closes the train will report the door not closing. This was never a problem in other countries.
@@nashorn9745The NSW Trainlink crew disagrees
Thumbnail is a bit to epic lol
Haha. It’s a draft for now, I’ve actually had this thumbnail saved for nearly 2 years as I’ve been meant to do this video for a very long time!
@@tsetstransport 2 years old cool
They should have been designed from the start for automatic operation, as per the metro trains and overseas trains. They could put a guard on them for security.
I dont think these are better. Less seats & fixed seats. And i wont be hanging my expensive MTB on those bike hooks.
At 7:55 Mark Buttigieg is my local mp. He was an ex ETU president before going to the labor party. He is a big supporter of the union movement
Haven't watched the video yet, but what went wrong, at the start, was instead of building locally, the NSW govt went overseas. This is the same issue with the XPT replacement fleet, and in fact the CAF Civity units being built have known issues with cracking frames, etc, overseas. Once again the NSW Govt has shown they never passed kindy, being that stupid.
Its lucky that the cracks found in Civity units 3 years ago in 2021 have been rectified and the manufacturing process has been updated to prevent this happening moving forward then isnt it?
The 195's /331's in the UK have been pretty reliable in service. The 397's on TPE have also been favouribly praised for their reliability.
Lets not use this childish "should have been built in Australia" nonsensical argument. For the same price the Govt could have ordered from Australia, but would only have had a budget for 60 carriages, not 117 carriages. Its economics 101. And lets be real - we cant fill jobs here as it is.
I actually want to go on a D set but what happened to it?
The trains are gorgeous like wowww
All this worry about lack of guard features is ridiculous. DOO (Driver Only Operation) is already used in countless places including australia. For goodness sake just fix the camera quality and it will be fine e
D sets may seam better but there i one major problem for people who can not travel backwards the D set train bets are fixed half the seats in the carages face backwords. if your traveling from a station to the city you can not be garantied a forward facing seat past the first couple of stations. so for me I can't travel backwards or stand for a long the trains will have to be washed if people get sick
I prefer to travel backwards.
The RBTU doesn't want driver only operation. It would mean massive job losses as once it is proven on an intercity you can be guaranteed most other lines would become DOO.
That's despite an injury that would have been prevented if it was DOO happening at Burwood yesterday.
The union is stuck between a rock and a hard place. To make it safer they would have massive job losses. Yesterday's injury I've never seen happen before. So an once in a lifetime workplace accident for a guard vs the livelihoods of all guards. How many guards work and this is the only accident to happen.
But that's technology.. jobs change.
Any change to driver only operations would be gradual, say over 30yr life of a fleet. Unlikely to be many job losses, just natural attrition as people retire or move elsewhere (see what happened in Melbourne decades ago for example)
Thankfully the unions of yesteryear didn't have the same attitudes, or Sydney would still be running steam trains to save the jobs of the stoker and coal runner.
Sydney trains recently settled a $1 million court case for a person who was dragged along the platform by a train. Their predicament had failed to be noticed by both the guard and platform dispatcher.
Countless studies have shown that having guards on trains does NOT make them inherently safer than those without them. The unions “safety” concerns with the fleet were over workforce/industrial protectionism. Same union that doesn’t have issues with DOO ops in other Australia cities I might add.
I knew this would come up. This was literally the first time I have ever heard a guard falling out of the train. The problem with DOO is the driver rushing closing the doors to make up for late running which is frequent in Melbourne and why you are always hearing about kids being left on the train or platform as a mother is trying to get a pram on or off. The guards are there to prevent this happening. On stations with no staff they are there to help the disabled get on or off the train which is definetly something a driver should never do. So until we have completely level boarding and PSD's on our intercity lines there should always be a guard.
@@joshporter5422it doesn't matter if it's safer. The RBTU is an union, it's interests is to look after employees. If you did a DOO but allowed guards to sit on the train and twiddle their thumbs with a guarantee of no redundancies it would be accepted in 2 seconds.
Yes but it means in 30 years time there will be less jobs than if they play hardball like they're doing now. Meaning more members, and more people get paid. That's the entire purpose of the union look after its members present and in the future. They don't represent the government, or the general public they look after their members
Sydneysiders finding out they may have to sit backwards on a train for once >:(
Shout out Tangaras my beloved
"Sydneysiders" The Intercity trains that will run to Newcastle, Kiama and Lithgow? Yeah those people consider themselves sydney siders.
@@vikingyaffa8346 Well as a Blue Mountainer I think you're nitpicking a bit there mate. A bit of umbrella terminology never hurt anyone too badly.
I am watching this video and a D set just Pass Auburn station
Doesn’t the d sets have brake issues and other stuff they have noticed in the last few months
There was an election and political opportunity. It’s as simple is that.
Rail safety regulators approved the operating model of the train. Independent rail safety experts were also engaged who approved the operating model.
I think you've hit the nail on the head but also there was an issue with lack of consultation. There were no union representatives consulted on the operating model. The same union accepted driver operated doors on Melbourne's Metro trains and alternate guard operations on regional trains in Victoria. The issue was how it was approached. The union picked this issue and dug their heels in until an election came up like you said. I'm not saying that the operating model proposed is good, bad or otherwise, however when the employer is actively trying to make the union irrelevant the government can't be too surprised that the union decided to dig their heels in. And it worked, and now barely any decisions are getting made inside the house without checking with the union first.
I'd like to know how many rail systems still have guards on their trains.
All the trains I use in the UK have doors etc controlled by guards.
They should have guards
Thankfully they will now have them! :)
@@tsetstransport well if the labor was before liberals labor would be like ok I will sign it
the may start on all the lines
Hopefully they solve the ATP issue/s.........
An excellent example of expedient political decisions getting in the way of good evidence-based engineering decisions. I remember when Bin-Chicken proudly boasted in parliament a 20% saving by having the trains designed and built in South Korea. Just a real shame the savings were more than consumed by modifications to the tunnels and platforms, along with all the other civil works just to name a few. On top of that, the trains are configured to run in 4, 6 and 10 car sets; the 10 car sets are next to being as useful as tits on a bull because there are only very few stations able to accommodate them! When they finally come into service, I foresee all of the USB charging ports being bogged up with some kids chewing gum and the tray table being broken, resulting in a maintenance nightmare.
Why are you importing trains from Spain instead of building them in nsw. Why do you need guards? Nsw is a mess.
These ones are from South Korea.
Mark Buttigieg is Labor
Maybe the main issue was the poor planning that went between transport for nsw and the manufacturer. I mean, if the communication was better maybe the trains would've been better? or maybe the manufacturer just didn't produce a good quality train.
Where are these dumpsters made?
South Korea
I just hope that the seats are more comfortable than the bum numbing timber planks on the current ancient intercity diesel trains .
I see these trains on blue mountains line alot
Nah just put the old red trains back into service..
My god 😮
NOW 2024 XD
As with most other things, they should have consulted Victoria.
I agree with your points but they aren’t even your points… you just reformatted a 7 news clip and added a parliament video.
Thanks for supporting me for spending 6 hours doing my research and editing this 10 minute video!
I mean, if you want to bring up some new novel points put them here
@@theorangeoof926 he could’ve used a bit sources don’t you think?
@@tsetstransport np👍👍👍
Frankly the guards were annoyed they were going to be turned into customer service reps and also one person operation has become normalized elsewhere around the world without any uptick in unsafe operation. It's nonsense to state one man operation with the cameras - which are not bad like you try to say - is a problem
The unions have onlygot themselves tobame if the public and the various state govts ofeither side dont like them and I too, amfed up to the back teeth with their BS over far too long trying to claim safety when V-sets are falling apart garbage.
The Labor member idiot knows that the narrow tunnels after Blackheath and the platforms needing to be fixed were always an issue the last Labor govt refused to fix. The LNP put that project into action and that was why the Blue Mountains were getting the trains after Central Coast, the program of work that had been in place *before* the trains were ordered would be complete. The work was finalised in 2020 when the entire line between Mt Victoria and Lithgow was closed due to damage by the Black Summer fires. This was why the H-Sets never went beyond Springwood and why the V-Sets have lingered due to inaction to fix this problem. A new train was *never* going to be narrow like the V-Sets so the Labor member trying to point score over"too wide" trains is just complete rot. The previous Labor govt refused to fix, it now has been fixed.
Also The actual quiet truth is the present Labor govt dont eactly like the train unions either.
The unions need to get out of the way and these long overdue far safer trains be allowed to operate.
Are they actually in use? They’ll be obsolete soon. 😂
Yeah Hopefully they fix the issues and put the Guards in the new Dumb Set trains. I remember back in late 1983 they Electrified the line from Gosford to Newcastle. The official opening was early in 1984. I had caught a single deck U-Set to Sydney from Broadmeadow. The Train network had a railway station at Newcastle not a Dumb Street Tram that nobody wants in Hunter Street. Why get rid of the Newcastle Railway Station, it comes down to the Council and the Developers want money. Nowdays in the 2020s with Dumb Set Trains with no guards, and a Driverless Metro Train on the Bankstown Line... Uh Huh Great work with the Dumb Set Trains and from Dumb Street to Newcastle Railway Station. : )
I USE A MOBILITY SCOOTER, IF THE STATION IS NOT MANNED, WHO WILL GET A RAMP SO I CAN GET ON AND OFF THE TRAIN
There’s almost always station staff who can help, if there are none at the station, the guard of the train that you’re on will most likely help and get the ramp.
Would you believe in Adelaide the driver gets out of the cab and takes the ramp that's next to the first set of doors inside the train and lays out for the passenger. I was surprised to see it when there for holidays from Sydney. I notice that in Melbourne the designated wheel chair boarding point it also the front of the train so the driver can do it. NSW is one of the few places that has a guard that is stationary inside their own cabin. Even in London where guards are still present north of the river ( south London is driver only operation even with trains that cross the river), the guard roams the train to check tickets and is able to operate the doors from a console at each set of doors. And that set of doors will be the first and last to close. I've not seen any other railway outside of nsw where it's a safety requirement for guards to keep their door open so they can look out the train whilst it is arriving and departing the platform. At best they pull the window down and look out. Otherwise it's Darwins law unfortunately. I understand having the guards for remain open was one of the changes on the NIF trains on the unions safety objections list.
@@raymondlowe7099 I MOVED FROM PERTH WHERE WE HAD DRIVER ONLY OPERATIONS, BUT WE HAD LEVEL BOARDING AND 1 INCH GAP BETWEEN TRAIN AND PLATFORM ON ALL OUR SUBURBAN TRAINS