Brett is a great guy. About a year ago he came out and set up a game with me when I was visiting Scottsdale and we had a great time. He is a great player and person, and I am glad to see what he is doing with Paddlefix. Awesome stuff.
I intended to watch just a few minutes of this video but ended up viewing the whole thing and wanting more. Best discussion of paddles ever! (For fun, I have used the Diadem Vice and, indeed, it has incredible power! It is also quieter than anything else on the market. I'm sorry it is not legal for tournament play but it has the beginnings of the technology that will go a long way toward resolving complaints about the noise of pickleball. Paddle manufacturers would do well to work now on defusing the anger against pickleball noise.). Thank you, Jordan!
This might be the only guy Ive heard have all the info correct. People have no idea that most all companies use the same material and even factories but are tricked by buzzwords and fake "trademarked" technology. Great listen on a fresh perspective of manufacturing.
Personally, I don't have time to watch 1 1/2 hour videos. However, the topic you chose to cover in this video is of great interest to me. So, did watch it in 2 sessions. Great Job. Wondering how one of my old racquetball paddles will work.
Excellent podcast!! Love your TH-cam channel as well. I learned a lot about Pickleball paddles today, and about the PG 1.0 & PG 2.0. I’m an engineer as well (Electrical consultant Hight Voltage power, prior Navy Nuke) and what Brett explained about lack of QA/QC testing and tolerance checks seems spot on. Companies will not spend more money than they are required too. I also agree that there was no “sinister” plot, just bad batches. Looking forward to watching more of your podcasts. Definitely want to see more of the PaddleFix gents!
Fantastic content this week fellas! PaddleFix your insight on the breakdown of paddles and processes was great. I would love to see you have both of them back in person to have more discussion. Possibly a recurring guest to break down trends and new technology? Caden I use the Diadem Vice for drilling & training like a fungo in baseball. I use it like a coach would to feed grounders & fly balls. The increased speed is great for testing others during defensive drills. It allows for less effort just like a fungo.
Great topic! PGA Tour 350+ yard tee shot, ATP Tennis 140 mph serves, NHL Hockey 100 mph slap shots, MLB Baseball juiced bats and balls to produce as many homers as possible, NBA 3 point line, if you want butts in the seats don’t limit what fans come to see! For pickel ball don’t limit these great athletes. Faster, harder sells!
I think the problem is with the ball, not the paddles. If they #1 decrease the bounce in the ball and #2 make they ball less noisy, that solves the community ban problem with the noise and the paddle gate issues. Quieter game and paddle companies can go to town with innovation.
The picture of the paddle face delam shows how much area is glued to the core, it’s the dark areas, the light areas are the holes of the honeycomb . Also the picture of where the edge guard is peeled off shows the split honeycomb cells where there is little flat surface for the edge guard to be glued to, that’s why now the edges are foam filled!
@@BrionesPickleball I agree 💯 I’ve played allot with the 003. It’s cliche but either you love the gearbox or you hate it. With all the carbon gate issues I always find myself going back to it because of all the drama. I switched to gearbox because of crbn gate 1.0, my wife and I just went to 6.0 but within a month they both delaminated. 😞 so I’ll just stick to gearbox for now.
Think of a delaminated paddle as lowering string tension on a tennis racquet, yes you get more “trampoline” effect, but you also have less control. It still takes skill to be able to control that.
Regarding Honeycomb core paddles, they don't use glue per se. They use a sheet adhesive which is basically a sheet of adhesive that is placed in between the surface plies and the core. The surface plies are pre-cured meaning they are made beforehand and are hard like a sheet of metal. This assembly is then put in either a press or in a vacuum chamber/bag and heated to a predetermined temperature (the recommended temperature where the sheet adhesive melts) for a specified amount of time and then cooled and removed. These paddles are NOT made in a mold! They are cut into the paddle shape by a CNC (which is a computerized milling machine) out of a large sheet which can be 4' x 10', more or less. With my background in composites, R+D, testing, manufacturing, mold making, press making, pattern making, composite repair, etc., etc., I feel confident I can develop this next generation of paddle with the right support organization behind me.
There will definitely be changes in the future of paddles, but I'm wondering - do you see your insights and ideas of developing a new paddle (or features of one) that is manufactured at the same top few factories in China, or somewhere else? Where are you based?
@@littlebigface Building paddles in China is very risky and severely limits and lengthens your time to market. It's risky because any new technology you bring to the table is available to everyone. Your time to market is restricted by the distance your paddles need to be shipped, the language barriers, the time it takes to tweak and make changes to your designs, etc.. I'm very aware of the huge delays products coming from China experience. I prefer to build paddles right here in the good ole USA. I believe people will stand in line to pay any amount for a paddle that is far superior to everything else on the market. Build a great paddle and the world will beat a path to your door. Build a cheap paddle like everyone else's and you need to compete on price and of course, graphics. Graphics are a cheap marketing trick. So are fancy words. Build a great paddle and you'll need neither. But building a great paddle requires cooperation from those who make the paddle specifications. You can set out to build a great paddle with the rules in place today, only to have them change by the time you get to market. You can build a great paddle today and have the rules committee disqualify your paddle because of a difference of an interpretation of the rules. I've asked for clarification on a number of things and received no response whatsoever! I've seen where big companies can basically do whatever they want, all at the expense of the smaller ones. A prime example is the big smiley face hole in the face of the Selkirk paddles. The rulebook states you can't have have any holes in the face of the paddle more than 1" above the handle yet this big smiley face is. If you can get around the politics, if you can get rock solid clarifications. If you can afford the startup costs, you can rock the industry! I'm in South Florida.
@@Schnitzone great analysis and I agree that players would pay premium for a quality paddle manufactured with superior materials and made in the US, right now paddles are incredibly inflated just by having a brand name on it, taking advantage of the relatively uninformed consumer demographic and new wave of popularity for the sport. Do you have anything currently in the works for a business plan, or multiple things cooking on the back burner for something in the future?
@@littlebigface I’d like to build some really revolutionary paddles that would make everything currently on the market, obsolete. I designed/invented two products over forty years ago in the competition slalom waterskiing industry that are on every high end slalom ski sold today. I changed the slalom world. I can change the Pickleball world too!
Recently saw video of a developer/engineer with a Vulcan paddle that he had applied a grit process he had developed. He then took a sander to it and it didn’t wear off.
As far as my post for Legacy paddles and the delay after delay, Me and my friend both cancelled our orders today. Sad. No end in sight for the delays. Bummed. No clear information as to WHY AND WHEN they plan on shipping. The timeline just got extended another 2-3weeks....😮 They haven't updated their website at all. I was supposed to get mine the 2nd week of February, and tomorrow is April. Getting a refund.
The thing i hate about Ben johns tweet is that now anyone playing with a vatic crbn or legacy pro will always be thought of playing with a possible delaminated paddle. I played in a tournament this past weekend with my crbn 1x and i had multiple folks ask me if it was delaminated.
Gearbox is not carbon all the way through. There are parallel ridges, but they are still filled with a polymer core. It isn't honeycomb, but there's still a polymer filling.
I own the VICE and what I have noticed is because of the stealth like SOUND and the quickness of the ball off the the paddle face your opponents are caught off guard.
There's a non-approved paddle called 'matrix' that Canadian Tire sold a few yr ago, also foam core I think. Weirdly quiet, low sound, super easy power AND spin. I don't understand why but assumed if it's trampolining, it compresses and holds more of the ball & for more time, increasing the friction. In tennis racquets, loose stringing does that. I thought tight stringing produces more power so maybe the trampoline effect works differently depending on how the ball is struck. Interesting video here, was a bit surprised Bret didn't comment on gearbox's claim that their tube core delivers a compression-based spin that should last longer than grit. The "trade secret" response on how grit's applied is interesting too as one would think if one can just update grit to like-new standard periodically it would be legal.
So in general, where does the future of pickleball lay? The paddles are where money can be made right now, but maybe there will be new technology in the ball, i.e. size, material, amount of holes, thickness..... food for thought.
At 40:50 talk about Vatic and I found the same thing. I had the Vatic Pro and the ball would really fly off the face. Ended up sending it back because had trouble controlling it but boy did it have some pop! That being said I am still waiting on the Legacy Pro and think it will be close to the Vatic. I like small companies and try to promote them. Paddles costing $250 -$300 (for rec players) is crazy. I think that most of the paddles come from the same few factories in China and we just pay for the marketing. Kind of like golf clubs and tennis rackets. Great amd informative video!!
The evolution in play is going to be with much more powerful serves than most pros today. It will have a significant impact on the quality of the return and thus the third shot.
I think you’re right but it won’t be a line drive shot and it can’t be a downward shot like a tennis serve. I think the more difficult serves will be much heavier shots… following what Tyson McGuffin has been doing this year with high arching topspin that lands deep and aims to keep opponents from comfortably returning and getting into the court. When paddle tech allows the more average players (without Tyson’s technique) to hit this type of serve then the 3.5 to 5.0 game play changes. At the elite level, I still think these guys are ball strikers and will figure it out… even the best paddles in the future won’t be as gnarly to replicate the 2021 spin serves that Zane and others rocked. And at the elite level, even the spin serve was handled… kind of.
@@brettwwarner1 Yeah, it doesn’t require line drive serves, but more spin allows for more power, deeper serves, AND tighter angles. Most pro’s, including Tyson McGuffin hit the same serve with the same pace every time and not very hard, so good players coming into the game can easily gauge those serves for deep returns. New players will figure this out, so that it puts more pressure on the return of serve. In the future, we’ll see more service winners and more third shot winners!
In tennis they control the ball.. If the strings allow you to hit 200mph they would adjust the ball.. Easy to do that with a ball with air in it.. Hard to do that with a plastic whiffle ball in pickleball. 😊
A delaminated paddle may give more directional control like looser strings on a tennis racket. For speed, may vary with how hard the player hits the ball. If it resonates positively, it will rebound harder, negatively it will be more absorptive of energy and return a slower ball. Or, that phenomenon may be based upon how it delaminated whether it comes off faster or slower.
Other than costing paddle companies a fortune in sales of replacement paddles, what would the justification be for not approving a paddle designed to have a removable, replaceable skin? So you buy one paddle, a dozen or more skins, and have like-new surface grit or weave / spin-grippyness on the same paddle for every tournament?
The new power test mentioned using a 6lb weight is ridiculous, have you seen the slo mo of the gearbox pro where on ball contact there is flex on the other side of the paddle on ball contact?
GREAT discussion! The first two paragraphs below are relevant to everyone. After that, it's more personal experience. 28:15 Gordon (?) nailed it: "They have to figure out a way they can test a paddle just a few minutes before a match. If they can't do that..." I can see why he couldn't finish that thought. The prospect of all of us arguing about paddle standards from now on is just too annoying to contemplate. 107:28 I think the discussion about paddle durability and the fact that what the pros want is not necessarily in the best interest of the amateurs is absolutely the most important topic. I use Gear Box. I don't know of s single pro that uses Gear Box, but I know MANY of my friends who do, and I have not met a single one who isn't very pleased with their paddle. I'm not really sure the delamination thing is really legit. I tested five paddles of 3 different brands of mine and every single one of them had the same result as the one he demonstrated. That is, a lower pitched thud near the edges, especially near the handle, and a higher pitch sound toward the middle. Are you saying that every single one of my paddles is delaminated in the exact same way? 49:00 I used Prince paddles for two years, and the last time I ordered one it was different form the previous ones. I checked where the two models were manufactured, and they had switched from made in USA to made in China. The USA paddles were good, but the China made ones sucked. (One broke at the handle after one week, and both it and the replacement were WAY OFF in the published specs, mainly in handle size.) I switched to Gear Box.
Viewed whole show. Great people. I was curious after watching about what repairs Tracy can actually do. If the face material is glued to the honeycomb core, then the only repair would be the edge guard and handle and Brett had no comments about the handle. So just edge guard?
Thank you for this excellent and informative interview! Another thing that has come about is manufactures disclosing HH measurements and Swing weights of their paddles. PB Pros, CJ Johnson and Tony Roig put out an open letter about this in May. You have any thoughts about this ? or maybe a video or podcast ? 🙂
@@BrionesPickleball Good show today. I'm an aircraft structures tech. And I can tell you there are many ways delamination can occur. Manufacturing processes , not enough adhesive, wrong cure times or temperatures, just to name a few. How the player cares for their paddle is another. How much they play, how hard they hit, the temperature they play in can affect the glue. Air travel with its cold temperatures and changes in air pressure can also affect the adhesive. If you store it in your car , maybe really cold or really hot, if temperatures affect the ball in a big way it's not so hard to believe that the paddle and it's materials would be affect greatly as well. I would love to see the numbers for power increase on a delaminated paddle, and see impact on a high speed camera. Now that would be interesting. The space between the core and a delaminated face would be measured in the thousands of an inch and even though the adhesive isn't working it still takes up space. Not totally sold on the trampoline effect in this case. But it is interesting. 🙂
I agree. I was an aircraft mechanic didn’t do a lot with composite, but I kind of remember using basically a ball bearing attached to a bolt or something to tap everywhere. But yeah just a hard metal object is all that is needed. Brass is softer less likely to scratch properly a good idea.
Suggestion: There is a very well known measurement practice called statistical process control. This goes back to WWII; that is how old and well known it is. Basically, there needs to be established sampling procedures of number of paddles per batch that are tested. There are procedures to develop how many samples are needed per batch. The data need to be sent in to the governing body and obviously pass the standards and standard deviation in the test results. The testing equipment also needs to have routine checks of standards with known values to make sure that the tests are accurate. The standards should be developed by third parties. The testing equipment checks also need to be sent to the governing body. There also need to be third party audits of the paddle manufacturers to check that all agreed to testing procedures are being followed. This is not rocket science. The American Society for Testing Materials (ASTM) have done similar work for thousands of industries for many years.
very interesting info. Sounds like pros are going to have to be more concerned than amateur's for paddles being banned or further tested, but its an issue to keep an eye on for sure.
Brett stated a couple of times that a Starrett Surface Roughness tester is only a couple hundred bucks. I don't understand where he's getting that number because I couldn't find one for less than $2,000. So, what am I missing?
Im curious what you all think of gearbox paddles? It seems that they have gone a very different route away from the honey comb and im curious what you paddle experts think
@@BrionesPickleball Is there a technical reason for the honey comb? do you think it gives a better sweetspot? Ive been playing with the cx14 for a year and now at the 4.5 leve. I'm curious if there is an advantage in switching
Yonex is made in Japan. Regular Selkirk made in the US with lifetime warranty. I think power air is only final assembly but still lifetime. I think labs only have a 1 yr warranty.
Does ANYONE know what is going on with Legacy Pro paddles??? Months of delays, NO REAL INFORMATION. 😮 Please share if you have any insights. Many posts on Reddit about how frustrated people are. I want my Legacy 😢. Help!!!
Really good poscast and very interesting, but it shows me that pro players and tournament focused peiople are far more focused on the fine hairs of paddles than the typical rec players who are seeing their expensive andtreasured courts being shut down over reasonable noise issues. The pickleball paddle and ball industries need to focus on tempering the sounds of pickleball before it really hurts the growth of the sport. Manufacturaers and USA Pickleball need to shift their energy to solve the sound issues.. I suspect that, if one serious manufacturer can produce quieter equipment, they can own the market. Would love to hear a podcast on the growing sound issue.
Haven’t seen it yet. Even if the blanks are the same size and shape there’s still a lot you can do during assembly to “juice” / customize a paddle. Need to take it a part to find out. Maybe we’ll do that and give an update to Jordan if that’s something people want to know more about as new paddles come to market.
These companies are already shipping out the new paddles. They were obviously working in this long before BJ tweeted. Did you ever explain the difference between thermoformed and regular paddles - the carbon edge strip that seals the two faces together so that is why they get the trampoline effect when normal paddles go dead. Guess I have to listen again.
You bring up a good point. There are certain elements to paddles that may support the paddle brand’s desired effect on performance… the carbon strip is a good example. Nice idea, but often poor execution and a MAJOR design flaw for most models… this is a root cause for durability issues. We actually developed a “fix” for this piece that works 100% of the time, but must be done at the factory… consulting for two major brands currently to implement this fix.
Keep up the great content @thepickleballstudio … great job paddle testing… interested to find out if you can ask players to use the paddles after initial testing then let you re-test 30 or 60 days later. RPM, MPH, and report any wear and tear (loose edge guard, crack, etc).
@@brettwwarner1 I've actually started doing that a little bit for my own paddles. I've been retesting old paddles off and on that I used extensively. I've wanted to do more with it, but the rate at which grit wears varies so heavily from player to player. 20 hours of me using a paddle is probably very different from even 10 hours on James Ignatowich. Haven't decided how useful the data would actually be since it's so dependent on the person.
Yeah, a lot of variables, maybe too many. I think we agree that for the pros the brand new stats matter… but for everyone else the real stats are day 1 vs day 30 vs day 60 etc. Too many competitive players get into a 2 month cycle to buy new paddles… maybe that’s the point.
@@brettwwarner1 For sure. I'm hoping we get to a point where something is just known to be more durable and last longer, or simply allow replaceable skins. The skins seems like the better option. I think building a better core/frame will be much easier than trying to create a surface to stand up against thousands of hits against a plastic ball and retain good grit.
A lot of paddle right out of the box will have a sweet spot in the middle that sounds different then hitting the ball near the yoke. Why is his staring good spot on the paddle a yoke dead area on a lot of paddles?
@@BrionesPickleball most all my paddle have a dead spot right at the yoke where it looked like he was bouncing it to test how the paddle should play. Most sweet spots in the paddle are near the center.
spaghetti gate was all the rage in the 70’s, pb growing pains Does pb hold a major outside the US? How do you really know who is the best if you do not.
I'm curious now to use that Vice paddle. That might fit me of being on-point to the ball target trajectory. Let's see if power can be played through straight up.
I still have not heard anyone show proof of any delaminated paddle creating more pop, speed or advantage. So far, all I have heard is opinions and anecdotal evidence. How much trampoline effect can there be with a gap of a fraction of a mm between surface and core ? Perhaps the louder sound gives the impression of more "pop". Ever heard of a broken baseball bat, tennis racket, racquetball paddle, table tennis paddle outperform one that is not broken ? I saw the matches with Jansen vs. Salome and Salome vs Parenteau. Devidze was hitting her shots against Jansen and missing the same shots against Parenteau. I don't think a delam paddle had any effect. All I see and taste are sour grapes.
That’s what I thought until I talked to multiple pros in person. They know when a paddle is hot. They just want an even playing field. Most are frustrated because of that, not because of the pace. If they all can have these paddles on purpose, very few would complain.
Not sure who Jordan’s partner is but he kept making statements or asking questions that showed he didn’t really understand the conversation. Plus, for a podcast supposed to be getting under the hood of this issue, they both showed little knowledge of paddles. Lucky Brett knows his stuff - whereas the Pickleball Studio guys are right on top of this.
The paddles controversy is all nonsense. There's only a certain limit these paddles can get to and once it reaches the technological peak it'll become an even playing field again
Probably some truth here, but a long way still to go. IMO all of today’s paddles will feel like toys compared to what will be available in the next year or two.
So, the one dude interviewing threw the Vactic 14mm under the bus, saying it delaminated - would have helped for him to let’s us know what he did after he realized it delaminated, how much longer he played it, and if it completely broke down eventually and was unplayable. The other dude seemed more prepared for this interview … just sayin
Brett is a great guy. About a year ago he came out and set up a game with me when I was visiting Scottsdale and we had a great time. He is a great player and person, and I am glad to see what he is doing with Paddlefix. Awesome stuff.
Thanks brother! We’ll run it back next time you’re in Scottsdale.
Very cool!
I intended to watch just a few minutes of this video but ended up viewing the whole thing and wanting more. Best discussion of paddles ever! (For fun, I have used the Diadem Vice and, indeed, it has incredible power! It is also quieter than anything else on the market. I'm sorry it is not legal for tournament play but it has the beginnings of the technology that will go a long way toward resolving complaints about the noise of pickleball. Paddle manufacturers would do well to work now on defusing the anger against pickleball noise.). Thank you, Jordan!
Np !!!
This was by far the best pickleball podcast I've seen. Thank you so much.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This might be the only guy Ive heard have all the info correct. People have no idea that most all companies use the same material and even factories but are tricked by buzzwords and fake "trademarked" technology. Great listen on a fresh perspective of manufacturing.
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Personally, I don't have time to watch 1 1/2 hour videos. However, the topic you chose to cover in this video is of great interest to me. So, did watch it in 2 sessions. Great Job. Wondering how one of my old racquetball paddles will work.
Thanks for sharing!
Excellent podcast!! Love your TH-cam channel as well. I learned a lot about Pickleball paddles today, and about the PG 1.0 & PG 2.0. I’m an engineer as well (Electrical consultant Hight Voltage power, prior Navy Nuke) and what Brett explained about lack of QA/QC testing and tolerance checks seems spot on. Companies will not spend more money than they are required too. I also agree that there was no “sinister” plot, just bad batches. Looking forward to watching more of your podcasts. Definitely want to see more of the PaddleFix gents!
👍🏻😊😎
Thank you. Would love to get Tracy out front next time. He’s the real deal with paddle assembly, durability, and performance.
Fantastic content this week fellas! PaddleFix your insight on the breakdown of paddles and processes was great. I would love to see you have both of them back in person to have more discussion. Possibly a recurring guest to break down trends and new technology?
Caden I use the Diadem Vice for drilling & training like a fungo in baseball. I use it like a coach would to feed grounders & fly balls. The increased speed is great for testing others during defensive drills. It allows for less effort just like a fungo.
Brett and Tracy are world class
Cool!!!
Thanks for the kind words and support. Definitely need Tracy on in the future.
Great topic! PGA Tour 350+ yard tee shot, ATP Tennis 140 mph serves, NHL Hockey 100 mph slap shots, MLB Baseball juiced bats and balls to produce as many homers as possible, NBA 3 point line, if you want butts in the seats don’t limit what fans come to see! For pickel ball don’t limit these great athletes. Faster, harder sells!
I somewhat agree…. 😊
Very interesting, and educational podcast session. Thanks Jordan!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I think the problem is with the ball, not the paddles. If they #1 decrease the bounce in the ball and #2 make they ball less noisy, that solves the community ban problem with the noise and the paddle gate issues. Quieter game and paddle companies can go to town with innovation.
Good suggestion!
Used paddle fix, Great Company! Loved the handle mods they did for me.
👍🏻😎🤙🏼
"I'm not going to lie..." . This was a very interesting conversation. Watched the entire thing.
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The picture of the paddle face delam shows how much area is glued to the core, it’s the dark areas, the light areas are the holes of the honeycomb . Also the picture of where the edge guard is peeled off shows the split honeycomb cells where there is little flat surface for the edge guard to be glued to, that’s why now the edges are foam filled!
Wow
I love you Jordan but “you lose the touch?” The cx14 has amazing softness and touch. It’s all about those soft hands.
Lol.
If you COMPARE it to other soft paddles like the 003, it makes the world of a difference.
You can ask any pro. It’s about preference.
@@BrionesPickleball I agree 💯 I’ve played allot with the 003. It’s cliche but either you love the gearbox or you hate it. With all the carbon gate issues I always find myself going back to it because of all the drama. I switched to gearbox because of crbn gate 1.0, my wife and I just went to 6.0 but within a month they both delaminated. 😞 so I’ll just stick to gearbox for now.
Think of a delaminated paddle as lowering string tension on a tennis racquet, yes you get more “trampoline” effect, but you also have less control. It still takes skill to be able to control that.
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Regarding Honeycomb core paddles, they don't use glue per se. They use a sheet adhesive which is basically a sheet of adhesive that is placed in between the surface plies and the core. The surface plies are pre-cured meaning they are made beforehand and are hard like a sheet of metal. This assembly is then put in either a press or in a vacuum chamber/bag and heated to a predetermined temperature (the recommended temperature where the sheet adhesive melts) for a specified amount of time and then cooled and removed. These paddles are NOT made in a mold! They are cut into the paddle shape by a CNC (which is a computerized milling machine) out of a large sheet which can be 4' x 10', more or less. With my background in composites, R+D, testing, manufacturing, mold making, press making, pattern making, composite repair, etc., etc., I feel confident I can develop this next generation of paddle with the right support organization behind me.
Cool! Good info
There will definitely be changes in the future of paddles, but I'm wondering - do you see your insights and ideas of developing a new paddle (or features of one) that is manufactured at the same top few factories in China, or somewhere else? Where are you based?
@@littlebigface Building paddles in China is very risky and severely limits and lengthens your time to market. It's risky because any new technology you bring to the table is available to everyone. Your time to market is restricted by the distance your paddles need to be shipped, the language barriers, the time it takes to tweak and make changes to your designs, etc.. I'm very aware of the huge delays products coming from China experience. I prefer to build paddles right here in the good ole USA. I believe people will stand in line to pay any amount for a paddle that is far superior to everything else on the market. Build a great paddle and the world will beat a path to your door. Build a cheap paddle like everyone else's and you need to compete on price and of course, graphics. Graphics are a cheap marketing trick. So are fancy words. Build a great paddle and you'll need neither. But building a great paddle requires cooperation from those who make the paddle specifications. You can set out to build a great paddle with the rules in place today, only to have them change by the time you get to market. You can build a great paddle today and have the rules committee disqualify your paddle because of a difference of an interpretation of the rules. I've asked for clarification on a number of things and received no response whatsoever! I've seen where big companies can basically do whatever they want, all at the expense of the smaller ones. A prime example is the big smiley face hole in the face of the Selkirk paddles. The rulebook states you can't have have any holes in the face of the paddle more than 1" above the handle yet this big smiley face is. If you can get around the politics, if you can get rock solid clarifications. If you can afford the startup costs, you can rock the industry! I'm in South Florida.
@@Schnitzone great analysis and I agree that players would pay premium for a quality paddle manufactured with superior materials and made in the US, right now paddles are incredibly inflated just by having a brand name on it, taking advantage of the relatively uninformed consumer demographic and new wave of popularity for the sport.
Do you have anything currently in the works for a business plan, or multiple things cooking on the back burner for something in the future?
@@littlebigface I’d like to build some really revolutionary paddles that would make everything currently on the market, obsolete. I designed/invented two products over forty years ago in the competition slalom waterskiing industry that are on every high end slalom ski sold today. I changed the slalom world. I can change the Pickleball world too!
I use an aluminum paddle by Brian Jensen And I love it. It seems to have an “all sweet spot” effect
Never tried that before
Recently saw video of a developer/engineer with a Vulcan paddle that he had applied a grit process he had developed. He then took a sander to it and it didn’t wear off.
Cool!
If you find a link, please post it. This is probably “what’s next” for paddle innovation.
Another informative episode! Thanks guys
Glad you enjoyed it!
As far as my post for Legacy paddles and the delay after delay, Me and my friend both cancelled our orders today. Sad. No end in sight for the delays. Bummed. No clear information as to WHY AND WHEN they plan on shipping. The timeline just got extended another 2-3weeks....😮 They haven't updated their website at all. I was supposed to get mine the 2nd week of February, and tomorrow is April. Getting a refund.
That sucks.
The thing i hate about Ben johns tweet is that now anyone playing with a vatic crbn or legacy pro will always be thought of playing with a possible delaminated paddle. I played in a tournament this past weekend with my crbn 1x and i had multiple folks ask me if it was delaminated.
Well said. A lot of people saw the first tweet… only a fraction saw him walk it back.
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Gearbox is not carbon all the way through. There are parallel ridges, but they are still filled with a polymer core. It isn't honeycomb, but there's still a polymer filling.
👍🏻
I own the VICE and what I have noticed is because of the stealth like SOUND and the quickness of the ball off the the paddle face your opponents are caught off guard.
Wow!
There's a non-approved paddle called 'matrix' that Canadian Tire sold a few yr ago, also foam core I think. Weirdly quiet, low sound, super easy power AND spin. I don't understand why but assumed if it's trampolining, it compresses and holds more of the ball & for more time, increasing the friction. In tennis racquets, loose stringing does that. I thought tight stringing produces more power so maybe the trampoline effect works differently depending on how the ball is struck.
Interesting video here, was a bit surprised Bret didn't comment on gearbox's claim that their tube core delivers a compression-based spin that should last longer than grit. The "trade secret" response on how grit's applied is interesting too as one would think if one can just update grit to like-new standard periodically it would be legal.
So in general, where does the future of pickleball lay? The paddles are where money can be made right now, but maybe there will be new technology in the ball, i.e. size, material, amount of holes, thickness..... food for thought.
Yes, we’re going to have to see!
At 40:50 talk about Vatic and I found the same thing. I had the Vatic Pro and the ball would really fly off the face. Ended up sending it back because had trouble controlling it but boy did it have some pop! That being said I am still waiting on the Legacy Pro and think it will be close to the Vatic. I like small companies and try to promote them. Paddles costing $250 -$300 (for rec players) is crazy. I think that most of the paddles come from the same few factories in China and we just pay for the marketing. Kind of like golf clubs and tennis rackets. Great amd informative video!!
Thanks Wayne!
The evolution in play is going to be with much more powerful serves than most pros today. It will have a significant impact on the quality of the return and thus the third shot.
Yes!
I think you’re right but it won’t be a line drive shot and it can’t be a downward shot like a tennis serve. I think the more difficult serves will be much heavier shots… following what Tyson McGuffin has been doing this year with high arching topspin that lands deep and aims to keep opponents from comfortably returning and getting into the court. When paddle tech allows the more average players (without Tyson’s technique) to hit this type of serve then the 3.5 to 5.0 game play changes. At the elite level, I still think these guys are ball strikers and will figure it out… even the best paddles in the future won’t be as gnarly to replicate the 2021 spin serves that Zane and others rocked. And at the elite level, even the spin serve was handled… kind of.
@@brettwwarner1 Yeah, it doesn’t require line drive serves, but more spin allows for more power, deeper serves, AND tighter angles. Most pro’s, including Tyson McGuffin hit the same serve with the same pace every time and not very hard, so good players coming into the game can easily gauge those serves for deep returns. New players will figure this out, so that it puts more pressure on the return of serve. In the future, we’ll see more service winners and more third shot winners!
In tennis they control the ball.. If the strings allow you to hit 200mph they would adjust the ball.. Easy to do that with a ball with air in it.. Hard to do that with a plastic whiffle ball in pickleball. 😊
Yes…
The vice paddle is an EVA foam paddle, I have a newera EVA from Hudef not approved and does have tons of power but you must swing hard as well
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Very informative and enlightening podcast. Can't wait to see where paddles will be a few years from now.
Us too!
A delaminated paddle may give more directional control like looser strings on a tennis racket. For speed, may vary with how hard the player hits the ball. If it resonates positively, it will rebound harder, negatively it will be more absorptive of energy and return a slower ball. Or, that phenomenon may be based upon how it delaminated whether it comes off faster or slower.
At the pro level it’s adding power every time.
Other than costing paddle companies a fortune in sales of replacement paddles, what would the justification be for not approving a paddle designed to have a removable, replaceable skin? So you buy one paddle, a dozen or more skins, and have like-new surface grit or weave / spin-grippyness on the same paddle for every tournament?
I suppose with anything removable it poses an engineering challenge to avoid delamination.
Good idea….
USAPA should lighten the rules on paddles to make it sturdier, paddles are ridiculously expensive for what it is and how long it lasts
Lots to be addressed
The new power test mentioned using a 6lb weight is ridiculous, have you seen the slo mo of the gearbox pro where on ball contact there is flex on the other side of the paddle on ball contact?
Haven’t seen it
GREAT discussion! The first two paragraphs below are relevant to everyone. After that, it's more personal experience.
28:15 Gordon (?) nailed it: "They have to figure out a way they can test a paddle just a few minutes before a match. If they can't do that..." I can see why he couldn't finish that thought. The prospect of all of us arguing about paddle standards from now on is just too annoying to contemplate.
107:28 I think the discussion about paddle durability and the fact that what the pros want is not necessarily in the best interest of the amateurs is absolutely the most important topic. I use Gear Box. I don't know of s single pro that uses Gear Box, but I know MANY of my friends who do, and I have not met a single one who isn't very pleased with their paddle.
I'm not really sure the delamination thing is really legit. I tested five paddles of 3 different brands of mine and every single one of them had the same result as the one he demonstrated. That is, a lower pitched thud near the edges, especially near the handle, and a higher pitch sound toward the middle. Are you saying that every single one of my paddles is delaminated in the exact same way?
49:00 I used Prince paddles for two years, and the last time I ordered one it was different form the previous ones. I checked where the two models were manufactured, and they had switched from made in USA to made in China. The USA paddles were good, but the China made ones sucked. (One broke at the handle after one week, and both it and the replacement were WAY OFF in the published specs, mainly in handle size.) I switched to Gear Box.
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Viewed whole show. Great people. I was curious after watching about what repairs Tracy can actually do. If the face material is glued to the honeycomb core, then the only repair would be the edge guard and handle and Brett had no comments about the handle. So just edge guard?
They do a bunch of repairs….. gotta go to their website
Thank you for this excellent and informative interview! Another thing that has come about is manufactures disclosing HH measurements and Swing weights of their paddles. PB Pros, CJ Johnson and Tony Roig put out an open letter about this in May. You have any thoughts about this ? or maybe a video or podcast ? 🙂
Not sure on that, I haven’t heard anything.
This paddle gate stuff is so ridiculous. It’s getting to the point like NASCAR and post race inspections.
Lol
The tap test will show delamination. A small brass hammer 10$ . I'm an aircraft structures tech. This is not hard or costly.
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@@BrionesPickleball Good show today. I'm an aircraft structures tech. And I can tell you there are many ways delamination can occur. Manufacturing processes , not enough adhesive, wrong cure times or temperatures, just to name a few. How the player cares for their paddle is another. How much they play, how hard they hit, the temperature they play in can affect the glue. Air travel with its cold temperatures and changes in air pressure can also affect the adhesive. If you store it in your car , maybe really cold or really hot, if temperatures affect the ball in a big way it's not so hard to believe that the paddle and it's materials would be affect greatly as well. I would love to see the numbers for power increase on a delaminated paddle, and see impact on a high speed camera. Now that would be interesting. The space between the core and a delaminated face would be measured in the thousands of an inch and even though the adhesive isn't working it still takes up space. Not totally sold on the trampoline effect in this case. But it is interesting. 🙂
I agree. I was an aircraft mechanic didn’t do a lot with composite, but I kind of remember using basically a ball bearing attached to a bolt or something to tap everywhere. But yeah just a hard metal object is all that is needed. Brass is softer less likely to scratch properly a good idea.
Me too use to work at TIMCO in Greensboro..
Suggestion: There is a very well known measurement practice called statistical process control. This goes back to WWII; that is how old and well known it is. Basically, there needs to be established sampling procedures of number of paddles per batch that are tested. There are procedures to develop how many samples are needed per batch. The data need to be sent in to the governing body and obviously pass the standards and standard deviation in the test results. The testing equipment also needs to have routine checks of standards with known values to make sure that the tests are accurate. The standards should be developed by third parties. The testing equipment checks also need to be sent to the governing body. There also need to be third party audits of the paddle manufacturers to check that all agreed to testing procedures are being followed. This is not rocket science. The American Society for Testing Materials (ASTM) have done similar work for thousands of industries for many years.
Cool!
Yeah, they need to figure this out get to more established testing like in Automotive industry.
very interesting info. Sounds like pros are going to have to be more concerned than amateur's for paddles being banned or further tested, but its an issue to keep an eye on for sure.
Yes, it’s their living!
Great job gentlemen. Very inciteful.
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What’s considered a long warranty for a paddle? I bought a Legacy Pro. It has a lot of pop. I would prefer more control, actually.
1 year should be minimum. Selkirk has lifetime warranty
excellent video more please
More to come!
Brett stated a couple of times that a Starrett Surface Roughness tester is only a couple hundred bucks. I don't understand where he's getting that number because I couldn't find one for less than $2,000. So, what am I missing?
Maybe he knows a guy lol
Great content, and Arizona could become the pickleball epicenter.
It already is!’
Im curious what you all think of gearbox paddles? It seems that they have gone a very different route away from the honey comb and im curious what you paddle experts think
It’s all about preference. I don’t love them, but they last a long time.
@@BrionesPickleball Is there a technical reason for the honey comb? do you think it gives a better sweetspot? Ive been playing with the cx14 for a year and now at the 4.5 leve. I'm curious if there is an advantage in switching
Better control and feel.
Yonex is made in Japan.
Regular Selkirk made in the US with lifetime warranty. I think power air is only final assembly but still lifetime. I think labs only have a 1 yr warranty.
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Does ANYONE know what is going on with Legacy Pro paddles??? Months of delays, NO REAL INFORMATION. 😮 Please share if you have any insights. Many posts on Reddit about how frustrated people are. I want my Legacy 😢. Help!!!
Wow…. Sorry
Really good poscast and very interesting, but it shows me that pro players and tournament focused peiople are far more focused on the fine hairs of paddles than the typical rec players who are seeing their expensive andtreasured courts being shut down over reasonable noise issues. The pickleball paddle and ball industries need to focus on tempering the sounds of pickleball before it really hurts the growth of the sport. Manufacturaers and USA Pickleball need to shift their energy to solve the sound issues.. I suspect that, if one serious manufacturer can produce quieter equipment, they can own the market. Would love to hear a podcast on the growing sound issue.
That will come
Thank you. Great information. Ben Johns' paddle is supposed to be something new and out in a month or so. Will be interesting.
It’s probably very similar to other carbon paddles
Yes it is. Looking forward to checking it out.
@@brettwwarner1 Literally a copy of the Legacy Pro...same company in China.
Haven’t seen it yet. Even if the blanks are the same size and shape there’s still a lot you can do during assembly to “juice” / customize a paddle. Need to take it a part to find out. Maybe we’ll do that and give an update to Jordan if that’s something people want to know more about as new paddles come to market.
These companies are already shipping out the new paddles. They were obviously working in this long before BJ tweeted.
Did you ever explain the difference between thermoformed and regular paddles - the carbon edge strip that seals the two faces together so that is why they get the trampoline effect when normal paddles go dead. Guess I have to listen again.
We didn’t talk specifically about the difference
You bring up a good point. There are certain elements to paddles that may support the paddle brand’s desired effect on performance… the carbon strip is a good example. Nice idea, but often poor execution and a MAJOR design flaw for most models… this is a root cause for durability issues. We actually developed a “fix” for this piece that works 100% of the time, but must be done at the factory… consulting for two major brands currently to implement this fix.
Great podcast guys! Fun insights.
Thanks PB Studio!
Keep up the great content @thepickleballstudio … great job paddle testing… interested to find out if you can ask players to use the paddles after initial testing then let you re-test 30 or 60 days later. RPM, MPH, and report any wear and tear (loose edge guard, crack, etc).
@@brettwwarner1 I've actually started doing that a little bit for my own paddles. I've been retesting old paddles off and on that I used extensively.
I've wanted to do more with it, but the rate at which grit wears varies so heavily from player to player. 20 hours of me using a paddle is probably very different from even 10 hours on James Ignatowich. Haven't decided how useful the data would actually be since it's so dependent on the person.
Yeah, a lot of variables, maybe too many. I think we agree that for the pros the brand new stats matter… but for everyone else the real stats are day 1 vs day 30 vs day 60 etc. Too many competitive players get into a 2 month cycle to buy new paddles… maybe that’s the point.
@@brettwwarner1 For sure. I'm hoping we get to a point where something is just known to be more durable and last longer, or simply allow replaceable skins.
The skins seems like the better option. I think building a better core/frame will be much easier than trying to create a surface to stand up against thousands of hits against a plastic ball and retain good grit.
A lot of paddle right out of the box will have a sweet spot in the middle that sounds different then hitting the ball near the yoke. Why is his staring good spot on the paddle a yoke dead area on a lot of paddles?
After dealing with thousands of paddles, he knows which ones are defective.
@@BrionesPickleball most all my paddle have a dead spot right at the yoke where it looked like he was bouncing it to test how the paddle should play. Most sweet spots in the paddle are near the center.
What is that yellow and white paddle?
I think it’s a babolat
Babolat MNSTR Touch
@@brettwwarner1 I'm looking for a great control paddle. I'm a 3.75 player trying to be 4.0. Would this be a good paddle to try?
spaghetti gate was all the rage in the 70’s, pb growing pains Does pb hold a major outside the US? How do you really know who is the best if you do not.
Not yet, as of now the Johns bros are the best
great thumbnail
Thanks!
I expect adding weight increases the chances of delamination, and BTW, wash your lucky hat, it won't ruin your game.
Lol
Is it true that all of the Thermo Formed paddles are being made at the same factory in China?
The LARGE majority of them are….
what kind of case is that on your MacBook?
Got it on Amazon….
Im not sure if Briones ever experience feelings 😅😅😂
Should play poker 😂 😂
Lol
Hey. Company CRBN isn’t called C-R-B-N. It’s called “carbon”. 😊
Lol
Yes, that’s my bad. You’re correct. Carbon not CRBN
But where are all the factories that make these paddles?
Depends which paddles you’re talking about
I'm curious now to use that Vice paddle. That might fit me of being on-point to the ball target trajectory. Let's see if power can be played through straight up.
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Great show thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This was very informative! Thanks guys!!! 🙏
Np !
So we’re clearly paying for the brand name and not technology. Doesn’t seem like there is much (if any) difference between $40 - $150 paddles
Unless you buy Selkirk, with lifetime warranty.
Also, there can a BIG difference when it comes to certain brands. It just really depends.
I'm wondering if a clothes iron with a towel between the iron and paddle surface would relaminate the outer layer.
Lol
The biggest issue facing the sport is the noise. How are you addressing this?
Earplugs
Next gen of applied grit will be diamond powder.
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I still have not heard anyone show proof of any delaminated paddle creating more pop, speed or advantage. So far, all I have heard is opinions and anecdotal evidence. How much trampoline effect can there be with a gap of a fraction of a mm between surface and core ? Perhaps the louder sound gives the impression of more "pop". Ever heard of a broken baseball bat, tennis racket, racquetball paddle, table tennis paddle outperform one that is not broken ? I saw the matches with Jansen vs. Salome and Salome vs Parenteau. Devidze was hitting her shots against Jansen and missing the same shots against Parenteau. I don't think a delam paddle had any effect. All I see and taste are sour grapes.
That’s what I thought until I talked to multiple pros in person. They know when a paddle is hot. They just want an even playing field. Most are frustrated because of that, not because of the pace. If they all can have these paddles on purpose, very few would complain.
Not sure who Jordan’s partner is but he kept making statements or asking questions that showed he didn’t really understand the conversation. Plus, for a podcast supposed to be getting under the hood of this issue, they both showed little knowledge of paddles. Lucky Brett knows his stuff - whereas the Pickleball Studio guys are right on top of this.
We are not paddle guys, we are top level instructors. That’s why we are having the interview. Lol
Brent could of said everything in a lot shorter time -just think what He said could of been 15 minutes or shorter
Lol
😂 glad someone said it. I’ll do better next time.
The paddles controversy is all nonsense. There's only a certain limit these paddles can get to and once it reaches the technological peak it'll become an even playing field again
Yes, but the “peak” isn’t determined yet.
Probably some truth here, but a long way still to go. IMO all of today’s paddles will feel like toys compared to what will be available in the next year or two.
This is all quite absurd. A pickleball ‘Nadal’ will come along who can generate crazy RPMs. Then what??
Spin is limited by technology
My vatic flash 14mm delaminate in 3 weeks :(
Ouch
I don't think labs has lifetime warranty.
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So, the one dude interviewing threw the Vactic 14mm under the bus, saying it delaminated - would have helped for him to let’s us know what he did after he realized it delaminated, how much longer he played it, and if it completely broke down eventually and was unplayable. The other dude seemed more prepared for this interview … just sayin
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C’mon Jordan - “what is honeycomb?” - really!
Lol
Sports equip should not be disposable after a short period of time. Bad for the family budget. Terrible for the environment too.
True, there are several people that working on that right now
Haha I’m just gonna reveal the manufacturer name: ama sports
Lol
Gearbox put up a video showing their paddle's innards: th-cam.com/video/JCLGxsFZsF8/w-d-xo.html
Cool
Deconstructed 4,000 paddles but doesn’t know the core of the gearbox pro?
I’m sure he does…
not sure paddle repair is worth the money spent. Paddles, unlike high end bicycles, are pretty damned cheap.
Gotta look at your own situation. For some, it’s really worth it, and saves them money.
This is why auto racing tears down the winning cars after the race. Or drug testing done on winners.
Whinn😊ers!
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God how can anyone get through this? This guy is putting me to sleep. The boys running the podcast will get better as this needs some editing.
Lol. There’s a lot of people that listened all the way through.
@@BrionesPickleball and I’d bet a lot that didn’t. Love the instructional videos and content. Keep it up.
Very informative, good job guys!!!
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