"The Dark Side Will Make You Forget" Is The Worst Trope Ever
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- Not entirely happy with this one, but that's the nature of Patron Polls. I brought this on myself.
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00:00 - Intro
00:49 - Binary Morality is Fine Actually
02:12 - The Lord of the Rings
04:41 - Shadow of War and Talion
06:20 - Anakin Skywalker
11:04 - Warcraft, the Forsaken and the Lich King
13:00 - Refusing to Write Actual Characters
17:15 - Conclusion
#starwars #lordoftherings #shadowofwar - บันเทิง
A few things before you comment.
1. I'm not entirely happy with this video so if it feels disjointed and weird that's why.
2. Yes I'm aware I said "Stole Soulen" instead of "Soul Stolen." Just laugh at my ineptitude and move on.
I swore that was intentional
I think the videos points well made and didn't see too many flaws. (beyond just me disagreeing with you, on some points)
Stole soulen needs to become a thing. Also why is Wrex in the same image as Belos and Yellow diamond? He's literally the guy who wants to stop his people from macho posturing themselves out of existence
I had no idea that was a mistake. I thought it was an actual thing cause I've never playedWoW
I figured Stoul Soulen was an intentional; comedic choice. Especially since it happened twice.
"you've gone mad with power"
"Of course I've gone mad with power. Do you know how boring is to go mad without power? No one listens to you"
“Power doesn’t corrupt, it reveals,” YES! I’ve never seen this concept explained so succinctly and clearly, thank you!
I want to wear this on a badge at work 😂
Yup that's what Robert Caro, the author of "The Power Broker" came to realize in his career.
I may note that while power does reveal it doesn't mean it can't corrupt, in other words, power can corrupt but it always does reveal.
@GOODYGOODGOOD789 Isn’t that kind of pointless to say?
If someone is good at face value but has inner darkness brought to the surface by power, is that not still revealing? Why does corruption need to exist as a seperate subcategory to revealing the truth as a whole, if it seems to just do the same thing?
Lindsey Ellis talked about how a book called the power broker was written about Robert Moses and the writer came to that conclusion about "Power revealing more than corrupting."
For an interesting subversion of this trope, I remember the Wings of Fire book series. In the books, some dragons possess animus magic, which allows them to enchant objects to do almost anything (a necklace to turn you invisible, make a palace grow out of the ground, a jewel to let you enter someone’s dreams).
In the books, it’s believed that every time you use your magic, you lose a piece of your soul. But as the series goes on, the reader begins to realize that the shift is more a psychological one, where the more you use your power, the more powerful you feel, and the more entitled you become. This was proven when a character decided to enchant an amulet that would protect their soul, so then they believed they could use their magic as much as they wanted without restrictions, and slowly started acting more spoiled and reckless. The basic conclusion that most of the characters come to is that it’s themselves that these evil temptations are stemming from and not some malevolent outside force.
The basic lesson here is that with great power comes great responsibility (sorry I just saw spiderverse and can’t get it off my brain!)
Hello my fellow Wings of Fire fan! Great to see you here! The example of Animus magic not corrupting someone was Turtle, who was so intent to not stand out that he inadvertently bypassed the tragedies the other Animus fell into. But he still stepped up to help, even when he was scared.
I think it's a good example of how power *reveals*, doesn't necessarily corrupt in and of itself.
Omg wings of fire! I agree with the given point, but I think it might still be that the use of magic both makes evil choices easier psychologically AND magically. Though I'm not sure, it seems from the way the final counter spell is worded that both take effect. Maybe I'm wrong, tho.
"Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things."
-Terry Pratchett
Feet of Clay?
Carpe Jugulum
I agree, but aterry was an actual good author
That's a good one.
When I hear this, I think of self-destructive characters like Bojack Horseman and Clay Puppington. Both are horrible and self-sabotaging and they know it. But instead of stopping and reevaluating things they just stew in their misery.
"Oh boo hoo, my actions have consequences" - Bojack Horseman for 6 godd@mn seasons.
@@itzYonko The show was about an anthro horse with a substance abuse problem and mommy issues- I think we can throw some realism out the window to write a character who doesn’t jog in place from season to season.
Did people REALLY miss the explanation that the One Ring controls all the others? I'm disappointed, but really shouldn't be that surprised.
One ring to rule them all one ring to find them one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. No idea how they can miss that but humanity never fails to disappoint.
Maybe
@@wisdommanari6701 because of the use of allegory and idioms.. most people missed this. they didn't know it meant that. they just thought it was something cool they said... people do not consume media critically.. that's like the #1 rule of understand the majority of humans. to the majority it ain't that serious.. to everyone else, they enjoy analyzing these things cuz they ain't focused on pure survival against predators or war.. basically even in peace most people do not care so long as they got water, electricity, food and shelter. only folks who care, are the ones who have a special interests in analyzing media critically.
And whoever gets their hands on the One, if they are skilled and powerful enough, potentially can control the rulers of both Elven Kingdoms and a nigh inmortal Maiar.
You mean the fandom that regularly sees Tolkien's writings as an exultation of race-nationalist genocidal war? Yeah, they actually miss the point quite often with his stuff.
“Remember, abilities aren't inherently good or evil... it's how you use them.”
-Kyle Katarn, Jedi Academy
YES
Force drain, life drain, force poison, force lightning, force madness are basically all you can use the dark side for. It is evil. You can be angry as a jedi and such without using the dark side.
"Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals."
I like this phrase.
I’m not a huge fan of lord of the rings , but the fact the flaming eye of evil has to work harder to convince the little fuzzy toed men the greed is good. Makes me smile
"If someone shows you who they are, believe them," MAYA ANGELOU.
I do like it when stories reveal the character's behavior in the beginning then when they do horrible things later it's not a surprise or if it is you just weren't paying attention.
Griffith from Berserk is a great example of this.
@@Machiavelli225 I totally agree.
I also think this trope is what brings us bad redemption arcs as well, because once their “free from the dark evil magic” they get freed from consequences & are told they don’t need to change their ways because it “wasn’t their fault, they had no control over their own actions” which then brings up the “forgiveness is everything” trope because the victims who suffered don’t get real closure, instead their told “in order to truly heal from this trauma you must forgive them”
Sad thing is that genuinely applies to mind control victims. NOT PEOPLE WHO WILLING WENT BAD
@@marqusmedina5983 Yes it does and I feel because of that, some writers take advantage of that
@@sweetpea2604 yeah. Trying to argue against it is just another flavor of victim blaming
part of the problem though is that forgiveness is genuinely one of the healthier ways to deal with things. (note I'm not saying no consequences here. you can forgive people but, still hold them to account). after all to move on something has to change. wallowing in rage or vengful thoughts does not help and only pushes people down self destruction themselves.
@@TGPDrunknHick facts
"It's boring because it removes the character entirely."
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
I think the root problem is that this trope was originally supposed to be basically an exaggeration of the old power corrupts bit. But then they skip the actual long proscess of someone spiraling away from themselves
Unrelated, but I've always liked the more horrific aspect of stuff like this like it's less "Oh, this power makes me evil", and more "The power is devouring my mind, leaving me an empty husk that hungers to devour more, I cannot help it, every moment I get closer to forgetting it all", it's like getting into a contest to win the prize, only to be in it for so long that the prize doesn't matter as much to you than the points you get during the contest to the point where the prize no longer matters to you, only the points you get.
No goals only the sake of the game
I would argue that Adventure Time did it well, partly by establishing the villain first as someone who is evil, but also somewhat pathetic and clearly not completely in their right mind. And partly by playing it entirety for tragedy instead of drama.
With Ice King, the trope was also used as a vector to tell different stories, and ADD to an otherwise kind of boring character rather than the other way around. They're unfortunately not all followed up with equally as well (especially Betty, who they play this more straight with), but it was regardless a pretty efficient storytelling device rather than laziness.
I dunno why but this makes me think of that one movie I saw… where Isabelle says “I think there is good in you, it’s just a shame your rather not show us any of it.” And yeah she’s right. In the film, Mask Boy is just another player… but he’s abusing his power as the main character in the game to be awful to everyone. He just does it because he can. Because he had the power to do so he can and will make villagers unhappy. Meanwhile other players with the exact same power either do dumb stuff that’s funny or really nice things. Like you said. Power dosent corrupt. It reveals people’s true colors…
The film in question was a film called Mask. It’s an indie/fan made animal crossing film on TH-cam. It’s got far better writing then half the crap I watched lately
"Power reveals", is the perfect way to put it. I remember in the first Captain America movie, how the serum (a metaphor for power) amplifies everything that the subject is. Good becomes great while Bad becomes worse. A nazi becomes a super nazi, while the boy scout becomes a super boy scout. The serum itself was not what changed them, it just amplified what was already there.
We need more of that in media, I think.
Honestly we should just bring back asshole villains, they are fun to write, easy to explain, and we don't have to waste time giving them a sad backstory or planning out any kind of redemption for them.
BIG JACK HORNER
That's why the High Evolutionary in GotG Vol. 3 and Emperor Palpatine are such great villains.
They are just fun to watch as well
More Negaduck please.
Mhmm. Mojo jojo.
I would like to point out though, a character that's inexplicably designed to be evil and completely unrepentant in what they do isn't inherently boring, it's just simple, and I think we're starting to come full circle on antagonist design, back to the days of classic Maleficent style "queen of all evil" due to the exasperating amounts of writers who try to add unnecessary "depth" to their characters by any number of tragic events and convoluted half-baked backstories. The sympathetic evil is still a good trope when done well, but most everyone that tries either winds up falling flat or making it too convoluted to invest in.
Mark my words, the popularity of Big Jack Horner from Puss in Boots is a weather bell that people are ready to return to villains being evil just because they're evil, we're already so hardcoded to expect the long drawn out monologue or flashback that youtubers can spend hours making bullshit psycho-analysis videos on that it's going to become subversive to just... Not do that and have the antagonist eat a baby or something.
What's old becomes new again decades down the line.
Honestly this trope is what ruined Wanda Maximoff during MoM. Using the Dark Hold to corrupt her, only to take her through the same arc she had in WandaVision, but worse because she commits tons of murders. And using “The Scarlet Witch” as an alternate personality instead of the Alter Ego also felt lazy. And apparently the only way to fix her mistakes in the end is killing herself. Ah yes the old man marvel way of writing women, end every major female character arc with them crocking (Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Gamora (yes I know she came back but it’s not Gamora, it was basically old Nebula with green skin)).
Sorry for the rant (I’m not even 100% how close to the trope Wanda’s situation was), but it pissed me off in the movie and hearing about the trope brought it all back… fuck Sam Raimi stick to Spiderman)
Or Jean Grey in both versions of movies, X-3 and Dark Phoenix.
I really liked Wandavision, so when I heard about her presence in Multiverse of Madness, I thought "Hey it could be interesting to watch the movie, maybe she'll go on a quest to get her sons and husband back". Saw she was the villain, decided to never touch that movie ever, for me Wanda is just silently grieving in her house near the lake till she die of old age, because fuck demonized grieving women.
Seriously, Marvel has a bad habit of portraying powerful men as valiant heroes while portraying powerful women as rapid dogs who need to be put down.
Reminds me of the Dark Pheonix BS surrounding Jean Grey, they always establish she's not the one in control of it, but it's in control of her. It's kinda BS IMHO.
It's made even worse when you consider that the MCU whitewashed her (Wanda is Romani and Jewish in the comics) and made her commit Blood Libel (which when you consider that she was supposed to be Jewish, is even more yikes)
I'm not gonna pretend that Pokemon Sun and Moon's story was any good whatsoever, but when they pulled that trope with Lusamine it truly pissed away any potential for that arc to make me feel anything (apparently nihilego's toxins are what made her snap and turn abusive. Despite it being evident that her cruelty spans way further back then when the player sees her interact with nihilego). Like y'all really did take one of the few good moments Lillie had in that game (scolding Lusamine for being terrible) and made it meaningless huh. Because god forbid you teach kids that their parents aren't perfect and correct and the victim 100% of the time. Like as a former kid who has a parent like Lusamine, if I were playing that game at 12-14 it would have brought me a lot of comfort if they just let Lusamine be a shit person of her own accord and said "Hey, sometimes your parents are just bad people who don't love you, and that's okay because there are plenty of other people out there who do, and they'll always have your back."
"The darkness made me do it" really is just "I was drunk that's not the real me" in a wizard hat huh.
honestly looking into this trope, im reminded of how people try to say that Wind Waker Ganondorf is this trope by saying "oh he used to be good but influence from the triforce made him evil and he forgot his original goal of wanting a better place for his people"....exept his whole speech in windwaker is just a bunch of purple prose because he went on to murder a lot of people just to GET the triforce in Ocarina of time
“Power doesn’t corrupt, it reveals” is the hardest line I’ve ever heard
I was confusedly expecting a takedown of people getting amnesia after they turn evil. This was not that, it was much better. I have two characters who become 'dark sided' in my story, when the first one is killed they have a moment of 'what have I done' but their motive is very much clear that it was something they were thinking all along and it wasnt until the moment of their death they realised their mistake. The second one at the moment of their death doubles down and is pure evil even after the dark magic has left them and dies screaming bloody murder and swearing revenge.
This video has definitely caused me to start to rethink the motivations behind the villains in the stories I want to write. I have a couple that started out as just the "dark magic corrupted them" trope, but you've helped me realize that keeping them that way is just lazy and boring. I need to develop their motivations more and make the "dark magic" simply the tool they use to execute their will rather than the force that made them evil in the first place.
A simple insecurity, a sprinkle of irrational distrust, a dash of lust, will help any character find it in themselves to do the wrong thing in full conscience.
"I want to take over the world" is a better motivation than "The Ring made me do it."
The Evil Within video game had a neat idea on corrupting power: It was just removing self-restraint so the infected would just follow their every violent impulse because they now had zero self-control.
Try imagining the dark magic as that intrusive thought or that bad friend that convinces you on doing bad stuff, make the darkness a character on it's own, it will make way easier to organize and plan each move it does, and it can have simple cartoonish objectives, while corrupting complex characters with complex plans, like darth vader and palpatine, palpatine is the representation of the dark side and the emperor and he wants to rule the galaxy, but the way he corrupted anakin is taking advantage of his weakness in character, he made himself look as the only option,
However, that is if you want to bring simpathy to the villain, to phrame it as a tragedy, if you want him to look more evil, you can make him willingly sacrifice the good things in his life for that power, hope this helps
@@LilianOrchard "if it was a good enough motive for M. Bison, it's a good enough motive for me."
Probably why I like the necromancers from the Diablo series, they may manipulate the forces of the dead, but they use it to protect people and the balance of life and death.
Okay, the Star Wars bit is the only one I feel even vaguely comfortable commenting on as I've both watched and played pieces of its media and you're absolutely right. The Jedi being wrong about the Dark Side is PART of the story, thier doctrine is very catholic in that straying from their path is seen as dangerous and should be avoided at all cost. They were very close minded, partly due to the fact Yoda was Grand Master for so long, preventing the flow of new ideas or approaches, hence why Qui-Gon was never given a seat on the council, he was seen as 'too radical' which anyone who knows Star Wars could tell you is BS.
Sidious didn't turn even because he was Sith, he was always a evil little sh*t. Maul knows he's doing terrible things, but keeps doing them as revenge is the only thing keeping him going. Vader, Obi-Wan and Yoda calling Vader and Anakin two separate beings is wrong, a point the OG movies prove when Luke manages to get through to him as if Vader really was separate from Anakin, Luke would be dead like 3 times over as why would Vader, this Sith being of evil-care for the life of the son of the man he 'killed'?
Obi-wan saying that is because he doesn't want to think about how the man he saw as his brother and best friend could commit such evil. Anakin doesn't like to think about it as he knows he's fallen from grace and to add salt to his burn injuries, it was for nothing as Padme not only regretted him but HE was the one that killed her, invalidating the entire reason he betrayed all he knew and loved in the first place(At least, that what I believe as 'dying of a broken heart' makes much less sense then from complications resulting from being force choked while heavily pregnant)
My problems with this trope are rather different from yours. You see, in most stories with this trope, and in nearly all bad ones, the heroes are empowered with their own supernatural abilities to counteract the villains corrupted by theirs. Whether it's called "white magic," "divine power" or whatever, the principle is the same. Sure, it's often weaker than the villains' powers, but it's supernatural power nonetheless. So, this kind of power corrupts, but that kind of power doesn't? It breaks the intended anti-authoritarian moral and twists it into something disturbingly Objectivist. It also breaks the usual moral of underdog stories in general, including kinds like idiot hero stories, that is, that it's the hero's virtue, not their abilities or intelligence, that allow them to prevail.
Just once, I'd like to see a story about a small band of thoughtful, committed normals repeatedly triumphing over superpowered villains through sheer wisdom and courage, without contrived coincidences, rare mundane gadgets or their own supernatural powers.
Like i filled her.
I need to stop forgetting that you are the cure for my writers block. lol
The best thematic subversion of this trope regarding Darth Vader is the two times his helmet was cracked and we get to see Anakin's face. Some people say that in those brief moments, Anakin was back before Vader took control again, but really all it does is it reminds everyone that it's Anakin in the suit. Otherwise, nothing's changed about Vader at all. He acts exactly the same as he normally does, especially when confronted by his past, but instead of the cold, menacing, and robotic voice of James Earl Jones, it's the cold, menacing, and robotic voice of Matt Lanter and Hayden Christensen, because that's who Vader is
13:52 - You cannot imagine my expression when I heard the line I thought of months before. "Power doesn't corrupt, it merely reveals."
Holy shit, I felt like I had my mind read!
4:53 I need to remember this for my DBZ friends.
Yes the Dragon Ball fandom needs to get their minds around this Canon doesn't matter Toriyama can literally take things from non-canon movies and lore I make them Cannon! And retcon pre-established mechanics have you seen the Goku black Arc! Toriyama literally retconned the original ending For DBZ with Dragon Ball super and super hero that is impressive!
@@terry3368 Actually, the ending of Z lead to Online and Xenoverse. I just want people to respect the actual marriages in series instead getting attacked for liking them. Especially Krillin and 18's relationship.
@@keondramcintyre3444people don't like Krillin and C18 ?
@ConstantinDOSSOU-vy1zo Yes, along with the other marriages exist for Vegeta and Bulma. Many people always say that Krillin doesn't deserve 18, but that's just them saying she's like a prize to be won, which she isn't. Krillin just brought back the humanity the twins loss long ago expecting nothing in return.😶
"Power doesn't corrupt it reveals."
THANK YOU, too many people see it the wrong way.
"Power does not corrupt. It reveals."
I am so damn happy someone else said it. It needs said more.
"Power doesn't corrupt; it reveals" is a fantastic line.
Dude this is the perfect response to the phrase "power corrupts." I'm going to use it!
@@terry3368 George Washington, for all his flaws, chose not to become a dictator. There are leaders who have used their power to the best of their ability.
Robert Caro: “But although the cliche says that power always corrupts, what is seldom said ... is that power always reveals. When a man is climbing, trying to persuade others to give him power, concealment is necessary. ... But as a man obtains more power, camouflage becomes less necessary.”
Minor critique but factories really didn't kill the British countrysides their still pretty much the same as back before Tolkeins time, factories did though ruin cities since they were built near high populace areas aka cities and caused a ton of pollution. An interesting fact tide to is that's where the famous London fog came from, London isn't naturally a foggy city and the fog came from the factories polluting the air.
I always like watching your videos that show the ties between the writers and the real world. You consistently help me rethink beliefs I've held without thinking, and that one video about Lindsay Ellis has demonstrably improved my life by getting me to stop and think when someone criticizes me or points out me doing something lazy or without consideration.
I know that this is probably weird to see out of nowhere from a stranger, but you've improved my life and my interactions with people around me.
Thank you.
I'm not a young kid anymore so I don't remember well anymore but didn't MLP:FiM sort of do this with Luna?
It's implied that she became Nightmare Moon due to her own flaws and vices but one blast from friendship laser is enough to make her good again.
Logically her redemption shouldn't have happened so easily but again I don't remember so correct me if I'm wrong.
I had heard that the original intent was to have her possessed by some evil spirit which had taken advantage of her insecurities, an idea explored in the "Nightmare Rarity" comics.
Nigga that's a kids show
"power doesnt corrupt, it reveals"
i really like this. its a good way at looking at issues. people think that power changed someone, but at most, it amplified what was already there. asshole managers or politicians, people have less and less of a reason to hide their real intentions once their victims have no power of getting them removed from the positions of power.
people reading villains like sad little babies getting corrupted by The Power is a symptom of the whole "villains who kinda have a point" epidemic. people just cant look at a villain like a villain, they need a backstory, they need motivations, they need who knows what. i saw this a lot in the owl house fandom, people refusing to read belos as a bitter old man and insisting that theres good in his heart, but his position as emperor has corrupted him to do evil. until it turns out he wants to harm the white boy, then they finally accepted that belos is evil. i am not surprised by this kind of media illiteracy, but it does piss me off a great amount that people dont understand that this kind of dictatorship doesnt appear out of thin air
you know its a good day when Lily uplodes a new vid
I really love your analysis on morality. Hope to see more. Cheers.
This and the Shadow of War and Talion segment of this video is a good example of why the saying "Power doesnt corrupt, it reveals" is true and why just "power corrupts" isnt. Dark magic in stories is so often used by writers to show how morally good charcters can be sent down the wrong path and turned evil by the inherently corrupting nature of power; but in reality having access to power only reveals who you truly are. Good shit again Lily 👏
I would argue power as corruption, but with the stipulation that the corruption draws on existing traits. Someone who's already an evil bastard or paragon of good will generally change less while the more neutral sorts are more likely to get worse if power goes to their heads
Exactly, it does both. It reveals negative traits an makes them more impactful. Nobody is perfect. It is not like power makes a perfectly good person bad. Power makes our decisions more impactful, it allows one to be more of themselves, both good and bad. Unfortunately, power often makes it easier to do bad with less effort, more rewards, and less accountability, a dangerous cocktail, especially when one is unaware of it. Vice is easy and virtue requires work. It might be more accurate to say people use power to corrupt themselves.
@zaktan7197 that last sentence, thank you, that's a phrase that encapsulates power so neatly
Honestly this is probably my favorite video youve made so far
This reminds me how in Dragon Age Inquisition mages finally gained freedom outside of Tevinter and suddenly we were faced with many of them went “mad with power.” It was established in other games they typically went “mad” out of desperation to escape the oppressive system that refused to change and kept kept them locked away and abused (among other nuanced things). I found that development very annoying.
Dragon Age's writing is entirely on the basis of "Real world bigotry, but contrived in a way to seem justifiable."
They play around with this trope in Beyblade Metal Masters. Tsubasa is possessed by "the big evil" which makes him lose control while fighting and start wrecking shit. Thing is, the dark power isn't just a purely corrupting force. It directly plays to Tsubasa's insecurities in wanting to win so he doesn't let his team down. That's made clear in how he doesn't get infected until the World Championship where it's a team effort. And Tsubasa is trying to resist it the whole time. Then he conquers the dark power not by completely defeating it, but by accepting it as part of himself and that although everyone has darkness in them, they also have light. So it's less of "muh I got possessed and am bad angry boi now" and more "I'm having my insecurities directly attacked and have to accept that I'm not perfect". Also it's made clear that the dark power doesn't corrupt, seeing as Ryuga conquers it and still has an ego and desire for power. If nothing else, it's a far more interesting take on the trope than just playing it straight.
I do have an example.
Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive.
The Malicious god of the series literally offers to take the responsibility and the emotional pain of two figures in the series. The one who takes it undergoes a drastic shift in personality as the lack of ability to feel remorse or guilt about one's actions renders them into a violent sociopath version of their former self.
WELL DONE LILY‼️👏🏾
Two things coming from someone else who actively loves Star Wars and WoW:
A. Of course Anakin is still Vader and vice versa, and the best argument for that comes FROM Vader comics. Anytime someone is made aware that Vader is Anakin, Vader KILLS them. Because he doesn’t want people to know his shame, he doesn’t want anyone else to realize he failed. If Vader was some force demon thingamabob that possessed Anakin, and they WERE separate people; don’t you think Vader would be showing off every chance that he got to say, “Look at me! I conquered your precious chosen one! Give me your shinies!” because that’s what a “sith demon” would do. He would use that fear and rage to boost his own power.
B. People really be out here saying Fristmourne corrupted Arthus? Really??? That cursed cucumber slicer CHOSE Arthus because Arthus’ was already falling away from what was objectively right. He made every wrong choice down his path and that’s why Frostmourne called out to him. Why would Frostmourne try to corrupt a “sunshine good boy” when it could have a weirder who’s heart and mind were already as closed off as it was?
Some people are silly. And thanks for the video Lily, I loved this one, but I love all your Star Wars content, so maybe I’m biased, happy pride month all!
I will always not be a fan of Anakin’s “redemption”.
He’s like being a space Hitler for many decades, committing genocide after genocide but one act of kindness then suddenly he’s a good guy now?
He might be manipulated by Palpatine but 95% of the crimes he did came from his own free will.
I think people who want to write stories about the ends not justifying the means have a much more serious, much more inherent issue. Which is that if you show a story where characters lie, cheat, and steal, but it ends with predictably better results than if they didn't, your story ends up demonstrating to the consequentialist that the ends DO justify the means.
This makes a very tempting option being to change the ends in order to make them not justify the means. But there is a vast difference between saying "violence isn't justified even if it makes the world a better place" (which, being a moral statement, has no truth value without assuming a certain ethical system) and "violence isn't justified because it won't make the world a better place." (which does have a truth value contingent on whether violence will make the world a better place or not).
Great video. Reminds me about how Fire emblem 8 handles the main antagonist Lyon. In the female protagonist route Lyon is corrupt and has lost all agency. While in the male protagonist route Lyon has quite a bit of agency.
This video is so good wtf
I was a bit lost during the start of the video, but you nailed pretty well from middle to end.
Into the topic, I agree a lot to this.
Per example, when I think of the Force, I find myself way more invested as to how the Force seems to resonate with different philosophies and moralities.
When the Force becomes “Dark bad and Light good”, it’s not bad, but it makes it so shallow for me.
If good and bad are concepts that changes throughout generations, is hard to imagine those imortal elements of good and evil existing.
It’s like thinking of Necromancy! Yeah, it can raise zombies, but it can also engage in biological spaces.
Anyway, great video!
15:01 was that a zero punctuation refrence or is the line “Grimm growls men growling grimly” down quote I don’t know of. Or just coincidence.
The fact that Celebrimbor always gets absolutely butchered makes me so sad because I love the Fëanorions- WHO ARE ALSO THOUGHT TO BE “CORRUPTED” BY POWER. People think the silmarils corrupted Fëanor and by extension his sons because of the oath. But Fëanor’s fatal flaw was that he feared nothing, that was his downfall! His sons were just loyal to him, following the oath to their deaths. They weren’t all “corrupt” just look at Malgor and the Ambrussa- but they’re so mischaracterized it actually hurts. I know the Silmarillion is hard to understand but ffs people.
Edit because dumb fun fact: if you actually know the prefix/suffix translations then you know Sauron is just a sindarin pun calling Mairon (that’s his real name) stinky.
Funny thing is, somehow i always missed how the love of the simple life and almost inability to "think big" was what made the Hobbit's so resilient to the One Ring's influence in contrast to everybody else (Gandalf included, by his own admission).
I have to agree that I can't think of a single time this trope was a positive addition to a story.
The closest think I can come up with are stories where power, be it magical or political or whatever demands you change or sacrifice something to become more powerful.
It is clearly the same character but they have evolved and changed just not for the better.
Loving the zero punctuation quote
One of my all time FAVORITE examples of the ends justify the means is Star Trek: Deep Space 9. A galactic war has broken out, and the federation and their allies could really use the Romulans on their side. Captain Cisco takes trickster Garek up on his offer to create a fake holo recording of the enemy forces plotting against the Romulans. The deception fails. Garek knew it would fail. But he had a second plan that he couldn’t tell the captain about: explosives. OMG; it’s so good.
Honestly, this is very eye-opening and enlightening like so many of your videos cause it brings some logic to the argument.
"Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals." People often can't fathom the idea that humans can be inherently evil and immoral, and often distances themselves from those "bad people" and call them "monsters" to differentiate them from "good" human beings.
"Evil" often preys on people's desire to do good which often is just feeding into their egos and with their newfound power often start to do more and more deeds that make it questionable if they were really a good person to begin with, or just needed the extra push to engage in their personal quest to feel like the goodest person to continue to feed their ego. Evil power isn't just a trap, it's a drug. Another trope this is more akin to is Jumping Off the Slippery Slope, or Well-Intentioned Extremist.
Thank you for the flashing lights warning.
"if it's good and interesting canon doesn't matter" ~ my feelings about the Expanded Universe / Legends Star wars continuity in a nutshell.
Amazing as always.
Imo: The lack of exploration of how and/or why the 'dark side makes someone forget' is what makes it bad. if explored and shows more involved, then there's something else besides "the bad goo made me do it"
I know ff14 made some examples of there was just more stuff being done because the "bad goo" is just a goo that's a goo.
Yeah. About the Star Wars example in particular, I find that some of the most interesting and morally nuanced stories are ones which explore how people fall to the Dark Side or how they come back. It's just that those stories aren't terribly common.
Good and evil are not pure or corrupt forces they are people who either intentionally help people to some capacity or intentionally hurt people to some capacity. And the quicker people wake up to this notion the quicker we can have actual, consistently interesting stories and characters be the norm and not the Diamond in the shit.
I really like your take on this subject. Wandering what your take on dark magic in the dragon prince.
You'd think this would be a more accepted notion after they tried and failed to make Illidan a villain just because he took the fell. Honestly, his follow up book just feels like the writers being salty that it didn't work
They also tried and failed to make Sylvanas a villain immediately after
@@LilianOrchard billionth time's the charm with Blizzard
@@kenndreafoltz8632 When you only have the one story, I guess you gotta use it?
should have ended the video with, "yeah well the dark side made me do it"
I think my favourite subversion of this trope is in fire emblem the sacred stones, on one of the routes in the gane it shows of the villain leon subcoming to this, but on the other it showcases that in all honesty he did kinda have it coming to him for how badly he just keot trying to avoid his responseabilities and how he was just entirely self destructive.
@Lily&mikailaorchhard hey, I’m making my own comic, and learning how to write a compelling story about intergenerational trauma. But sometimes I don’t really understand what your saying, I’m a slow learner qwq. But are you saying instead of having a grand motivation and arc they just say “dark magic bad” ?
Yup
Yeah, the point is basically that it's a total copout and really no different from killing that character and replacing them with a boring villain wearing their skin. If you want to make your character evil, it's better to have them turn evil naturally.
Yeah basically writers want to write a villain that starts to act pure evil after getting a lot of power but don’t want to address that the character always had bigoted motivation and finally has the power to spread their ideology so instead they use the lazy way out and pretend the characters is actually a good person the power just corrupted them
Edit: this is bad bc it replaces the character to become a walking plot device so the hero has someone to fight that just goes “grr grr more power must hurt pple” and it’s very boring
It's interesting you'd bring up LOTR as an example, because the og Evil Corrupt Ring™ narrative that Tolkien was obviously inspired by, Wagner's Rheingold, had the complete opposite effect on the wearer. In Rheingold, the ring of the Nibelung is cursed to make everyone who DOESN'T own it jealous, to the point where they're willing to murder over it. The ring ruins the wearer's life, because everyone wants it, and only after gaining it do they realize that it's cursed to bring misfortune. Ultimate power doesn't make you evil, it makes everyone else want to gut you.
Keep in mind that while power does not necessarily corrupt, it does force certain actions in order to maintain that power. A CEO has to depress wages because they have shareholders. A dictator has to purge political rivals because they have a base of support and rivals destabilize that power. There are many cases where the actions of powerful individuals do not merely reflect their nature as a person but also the nature of their position.
At 11:45, is Lily saying soul, stole, a type of scarf, or a word related to WOW I've never heard of?
It’s a bad line read, which she’s aware of. ‘Stole Soulen’ -> ‘Soul Stolen’
Imagine the reason you turned evil was because someone stole a scarf from you
When I saw the tilte. I thought it was about how evil tries to hide the past. Instead I got a video that is making a good point of why my magic system suck
Thank you for saying that power doesn’t corrupt. I hate that idea so much. It’s not power corrupting it’s the fact that almost all people who seek out a lot of power are already corrupt to their core. Most good people wouldn’t want much power because that’s a lot of stress and just doing simple basic acts of good will bring you much more fulfillment in life. The only good people who would seek out power are those who have lost everything and given up on their own life. Once you’ve reached that point it’s much easier to give up the simplicity of low amounts of power that most people have and try to have enough power to stop the shitty people with it from using it to take away from other people like they took everything from you.
I'm a bit confused. How do you differentiate between this trope and just plain old brainwashing?
Brainwashing usually has someone behind it who controls the person. "Power corrupts" is basically just a power or concept making the person do bad stuff.
There is no mastermind behind it or anything it's just the thing in itself that's causing the problems.
at 4:52 was that just reactive or have you actually had people dismiss examples of good or bad writing because of it not being canon?
I would be interested in your view of the characters in The Wire who try to do good within the institutions they work in (aka the police department, docks, city council, schools, and newspaper), but fall short due to barriers of how those organizations function, and how that compares to the characters who live on the other side of the law (aka the drug dealers, drug users, students, dock workers, and Omar in general) with their own code of ethics.
Damn I'm so freaking exciting about this.
This is rly gr8 content.
This is an interesting perspective and I like the idea of taking and manipulating the dark side by choosing a more benign goal. This is far more common in asain stories probably due to the Ying yang philosophy.
Omfg!!! The amount of arguments I've had that increased in intensity when someone thinks "Well, it works if it's done well" will shut me up! Sure, IF IT'S DONE WELL. But this wasn't, was it????
Would Garmadon being poisoned into evil by the Great Devourer in Ninjago count as this trope?
I'd argue that cyberpsycosis in Cyberpunk is an example of the trope done right. It's indiscriminatory regardless of how much of a bad person you were before. The power it gives is the only chance you have for survival making it almost mandatory to use not a choice.
"Power doesn't Corrupt, It Reveals"
Can you say that again? pretty sure the people in the back didn't catch that
"Stoul soulen" lmao
Another video yet I keep coming back to yugioh. The millennium items were forged from an act of pure evil but upon learning of this atems father the pharaoh begged the gods for his son to Not inherit his sins. Despite the fact they were still using the dark magic yes the items were forged from evil but atem wielded them to do good that's what a king does
Now I just wanna re-read LOTR again.
what’s the last clip from the Jedi section from? Seems interesting
I managed to follow well enough. Consider me convinced.
Hey Lily, did you delete your Encanto video? I cant find it anymore.
it doesn't corrupt, it reveals
I can think of exactly one example of "the dark side will make you forget" being used well, and that's Sanji and the Germa66 stealth suit. Using it unlocked his latent genetic enhancements, but also would strip him of his emotions if he kept using it. Sanji realizes this and gets rid of that shit immediately because his mountains of character development made him accept that having basic human empathy and emotions doesn't make him a failure like his father and siblings all told him growing up.
Gosh Lily There is A LOT of ZP YahtzeeIn this video
I feel like for the star wars dark side trope
Darth Revan did it extremely well
because he didn't "fall" to the dark side
he chose to join it
Because he personally believed the Republic wasn't ready for a war with the hidden sith empire, so he made his own empire that would other be defeated by the republic therefore strengthening the republic, or he would win and reform the republic himself.
3:23 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Although I may disagree with these peeps at some points, there are straight FACTS being spit here!
Especially the Star wars Light VS Dark false dichotomy!
Plus here's a good counter to the highway to hell proverb. *The staircase to heavan is built upon a foundation of skulls.*
just curious, who's the dictator shown at 13:44??
Im making a scifi off the idea that power is totally neutral, and sort of a metaphor for historical politocal power
I'll always respect Tolkien for acknowledging the problems with his work and trying to revise it, even if he didn't live to see it through.
One of the more tantalizing elements from his notes is a revamp of the Orcs, doing more to flesh out their culture and justifying some of their aesthetic. His draft of how to do this was leaning toward the idea of the Orcs in the original work being, well, Orcs who decided to be fascist: however, the look of their arms and equipment were meant to be derived from mainline Orc culture's disdain for ornamentation and other cosmetic efforts.
To them, these things were invitations to the kind of arrogance and superficiality that had fucked them over multiple times, starting with Sauron creating them and then discarding them for not being 'beautiful' enough. Things should be judged by their use and what they do, not how they look - a farmer isn't somehow dishonored by having muck on his boots.
Likewise, he was going to establish that Orcs were actually the foremost experts in medicine throughout Middle-Earth, able to treat wounds beyond the means of even Elves, and that Saruman studied Orcish medicinal techniques to help create his Uruk-Hai. The movie showing them being gestated within the earth was sourced from other notes Tolkien had on what this Orcish medical science was capable of - allowing children to be born without forcing their mothers to suffer the pain and potential risks of childbirth, which Saruman then used to mass-produce soldiers for his war effort.
Likewise, Gothmog is another reference to this idea. His (benignly) tumorous visage and physical disabilities were something his men respected because he was a living example of Orcish medicine's efficacy. Even after being mangled beyond the point where any other culture would have had to give him up for dead, they were able to stimulate his ruined flesh to regrow and re-set his shattered bones to the point where he could walk and hold a weapon again (which was the operative concern because, again, the Orcs who chose to serve Sauron were the fash Orcs; they had turned their people's medical arts into a sign of SUPERIOR ORCISH WILL TO POWER rather than just a way to keep people from dying.)
It's just a pity the films overlooked how in the books, the rank and file Orcs were often depicted in a way that seems to reference Tolkien's own time in military service - bored, unhappy, talking shit about their commanders, and serving out of fear rather than patriotic duty or maliciousness. It was a mistake that a lot of people who read the books during Tolkien's lifetime also made, and that's part of what convinced him he needed to put more work into establishing the Orcs, Easterlings, and other groups who sided with Sauron as being _people_ rather than monsters. (He especially came to regret his racist description of Orcs as 'Mongoloid', in particular, and realizing that was another major impetus for his attempted rewrite.)
Funnily enough, the Advanced Medicine angle was borrowed by 40k Orks, where they have the Mad Doks (or Painboyz) being able to stitch an Ork back together again to fight another day.
So that's 0:29 the fine line between a Weeb and Not a Weeb?