Why MLP Turned Into A Creepy Centrist Melodrama (Glass of Water)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ม.ค. 2020
- MLP Turned to Garbage and This Was Why
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Honestly, people seem to confuse themselves with what "mature" is. It's not hyper-violence, or blood, or world-ending conflict, but it can be more personal than that. My prime example is "Sesame Street." Yes, that show. A show for little, little kids. There was an episode where it tackled death because one of the characters on that show had died and they wanted to take the opportunity to teach kids something that is very difficult. They didn't show the body of the dead character, they didn't get bloody, or edgy, or all dark and depressing about it, they sat Big Bird down, and told him what death was in a way little kids could understand. That was very mature, and people need to understand kid shows can be mature, without having to be dark and edgy about it.
The ironic part is that stuff like Happytime Murders which was trying to prove that Muppets can be just as mature as other movies is nowhere near as mature as the Sesame Street episodes that dealt with such touchy subjects. If anything, the extremes it took just made it laughable.
Hell, Mr. Rogers with a cat puppet explaining to kids what assassination is is much more mature than anything Happytime Murders did in t's 1-hour runtime.
Try watching Lastman
I like happy time murders but it can get pretty crude for the sake of being crude. How about real jokes? We get it muppets saying fuck but is that the entire joke? I do enjoy some low brow humour from time to time but it's a bit to much.
When I hear 'mature' this is what should happen, you tackle a subject that kids would be scared of in a way they understood and don't readily fear when they hear it. In fact, let me get mature for a second about something no show - to my knowledge - has touched, first love.
First love is something we all go through and it makes many of us a bleeding heart as we wish to shower our first love with affection, gifts, hugs and kisses and rarely do we think of the 'bedroom' with them. When it develops it does go there but here's the thing about first love, it's a taste of love you can express and receive and rarely does it ever last. This also leads to the first break up which leaves many feeling empty inside, like they completely poured themselves out into an empty space and first loves that last a year feel that way.
People do move on but that takes time, healing and support and that's just to get the single again person going again if it's bad enough. It may take longer than that before they are comfortable enough to try again as they don't want to break their own heart or have it broken a second time. There's more to this topic as it's a lot to unpack but this is why I think it's mature, because it is complex, hard to understand and kids can and will be scared of pain, especially this one.
This! One of my favourite anime’s (not quite sure if it can be classified as a children’s show) Charlotte took 1-2 episodes portraying a grievance period and it was the first time I had ever seen it done. I believe it was done really well as you could contrast the MC’s behaviour whilst grieving with the more playful episodes that preceded it
"A friend of your abuser's is no friend of yours." I'll need to remember that, thanks!
I had to pause at this part and repeat it multiples times. I remember being heavily harassed by someone that physically assault me and one day I just notice how literally all my friends were more than cool with this person. When I talked to them about it they repeat like robots «Idk, she is nice to me so...» in a way to make me understand that since she hadn’t done anything to them they won’t interfere. I am still friend with the majority of them tho and right now I am just... I think I needed this video, I am grateful to Lily.
“Whatever the hell _Dave the Barbarian_ was supposed to be.”
I always got an “affectionate parody of fantasy adventure” vibe from it.
I'm so happy that Dave the Barbarian has been recognized. 😭
I loved ATLA, and I still do. I loved the characters, the tight focus that the show gave us on keeping the ball rolling. I wish that the lessons the industry learned from Avatar were more about honoring the world you've written for yourself, about keeping your stories character-centric, and about showing complex things to kids that they might not necessarily understand, but can begin to understand because of how you framed it. Buuuut no, what we APPARENTLY learned from ATLA was that kids love magic systems, that "whoosh, crackle, kaboom" combat is always a good idea, and that background characters always deserve to be elevated to main cast without a second thought.
I always wanted an episode about Apple Bloom and her relationship with Peppermint Twist where the message was "Sometimes friends drift apart. You can still get along, but you've made separate friends and you want hang with them now."
@@unicornbunny5439 I never got the feeling the Twilight was as close to her Canterlot friends as Apple Bloom was to Twist. This would be a case of former BEST friends drifting apart. Plus, my ideal episode would focus more on that fact, while Amending Fences is more about how you can make up for having not been a very thoughtful friend in the past
@@unicornbunny5439 I'm sorry to hear that. I don't interact with a lot of my previous best friends anymore, but one did just invite me to her wedding, so there's that. Most of my friends these days are older than me, which I think was kinda always how I liked it. I enjoy people I can have an in-depth political discussion with. I also like spending time with my younger relatives, because they think I'm awesome.
I thought that The Spectacle was going to teach a lesson like that. Long story short, I expected The Spectacle to be about AppleJack learning that RaRa had grown and changed to the point she and AJ are no longer compatible friends, and also learn that that's okay. It's okay for friends to drift apart over time and while they may remain on good terms with each other, they lead different lives and aren't as good friends as they once were. Maybe also have AJ learn that while it is painful to see and accept, especially when you still consider them a close friend, you can be strong and get through it and make new friends
That is, until The Spectacle turned into another overused "be true to who you are" story
@@ahstiasummers5583 Exactly what I wanted from that episode. Also wish they hadn't named the bad guy after an anti-Semitic stereotype. The term "Svengali" needs to be phased out. I understand a lot of people don't know the origin, so I don't completely blame them, but that's why awareness should be raised.
Funny how this series is called "glass of water" when you always serve hot tea. :P
No, but seriously, I enjoy your content, as your viewpoint is different from mine and often gives me a lot to think about.
Jac my friend what do you need to make a glass of tea
@@wiseguy1512 Got me there XD
Max Schreck yeah but where dose the Tea bag go
Max Schreck ok you’re impossible
You’ll need a glass of water after this to make the tea-burns less severe
For a brief a moment I thought we were suddenly gonna start talking about Dark Horse comics.
"Killing villains would be a bad lesson for children"
*[thinks back to how many antagonists died in Regular Show]*
Not to mention almost every single Disney movie with a villain in it. Tarzan, Snow White, The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Pinocchio, Tangled, and many many others. Not to mention all the parental deaths as well!😱 Kids have been surrounded by movies with deaths in them. Maybe not explicit, just enough to get the point across. It's not like kids have never been exposed to mature themes. The whole point is doing it tastefully and thoughtfully for a child's understanding if that's the audience you are catering to.
In all honesty I don’t think that regular show was that far from an average children tv show
“Friendship didn’t fail me, I failed friendship.”
“Wtf does that mean you mashed potato?”😂
I hate it when I point out that something doesn’t make sense in a show or movie and then get lectured by people who try to explain it to me
I feel your pain
“You don’t get it! See, the idea of *Friendship* in some cultures was considered a sociolo-“
SHUT UP ALREADY! 😂
twilight was acting like a bad person, or in simpler words she wasn't being nice to her friends because she was so stressed and unconfident about saving equestria. and for the princess of friendship thats pretty sad. Lillys joke was funny tho
best insult, best phil
This problem also bled into YA novels where 30 and 40-something authors are writing stories about teens fetishizing abusive relationships and trying to normalize them. It drives me nuckin' futz.
I swear I'm taking you seriously but NUCKIN' FUTZ you just made my day
@@unicornbunny5439 Famous example: Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey.
I wouldn't say normalize but romanticize, because young adults think that abusive relationship show how "deep" their characters are. These are the same people who think that schizophrenia is beautiful and mental illness is romantic.
As an English major who hopes to write stories for a younger audience in the future, yeah you nailed it on the head. This current animation trend of redeeming the worst people needs to end. It's a little terrifying to see this current generation grow up on themes like this. Fandoms of children's shows need to understand the difference between fanfiction and smart writing. Fanfiction is redeeming raving lunatics like Darth Vader and forgetting their terrible traits. Smart writing is understanding that literal children shouldn't see space nazis becoming the "good guys" without actually having any changes to their personalities
Limey Blimey I whole heartedly agree. I’m fan of Star Wars but Vader is a piece of shit. He shouldn’t be forgiven it’s just bad writing.
so what, return of jedi was fanficiton?
Quote of 2020: "What the f**k does that mean you mash potato?"- Lily Orchard 5:12
My half a brain cell just realized that “disk horse” was made as a play on the word “discourse”
@@scootermcpeanuts6699 same
"I'm evil but it's okay because I was sad"
Don't get me wrong
I like seeing redeemable villains in media
Keyword... REDEEMABLE
A fascist dictator isn't redeemable
A serial killer isn't redeemable
As someone who struggles with serious PTSD, it's extremely frustrating when people with trauma are represented like this
Why can't there be more examples of people who use their trauma towards good?
I adopted a son with similar PTSD and help him work through it because I understand what he goes through
(Hopefully I'm making sense, I'm kinda tired lol)
Disgraceful Maiden I fully agree with you and congrats to you for taking in a child with a trauma that you both are coping with and recovering from. I wish both you and your son all the best!
@@sadtitties222 thank you very much. he is doing very well and im so pround of the strides and progress he makes everyday ^-^
@@kykycupcake1 No problem and you're welcome! 😊
so, there seems to be something left out of the problem. twilight HAD to talk down starlight because they where equal strength. twilight had to talk down starlight. i am curious what you would do after that.
“You can be a great animator but if you can’t write to save you life you do not belong in the executive producer chair”
And yet rwby still exists, actually never mind I don’t know what montys end goal was...and I don’t know if the head writers do either.
The animation in RWBY has gotten better but the writing and characters has become bad and inconsistent. It’s kinda amazing how Miles and Kerry can mess up the writing that badly. I’m still waiting for the show to really tumble down
"whatever the hell Dave the barbarian suppose to be. "
That a great reference.
i remember a problem i had with miraculous ladybug - it had an episode about a person lying and manipulating and deceiving everyone and 1/2 the main pair wanted to expose her to everyone (albeit partially for selfish reasons) and the other half just went "eh she's never gonna stop, let's just let her be". that's a pretty toxic moral if you ask me.
From what I got from this video, a lot of the animated shows that we're getting now continue on the precipice of not trying to differentiate from one another. For instance, I feel like 'The Owl House' is going to be another animated series where the world building may lead to its downfall depending on how the story goes.
Moral of the story, it is not the amount of friends you have that matters, but the quality of those friends.
With that Animators/Art School segment, it's almost like animators are AFRAID to have writers. Like...they know teams of a cartoon are allowed to have BOTH, right? You can be the animator and then work WITH someone who maybe CAN'T draw to save their lives, but knows how to actually write a good story. Then boom, you got two great things blending together to make something great. Is asking someone who knows what they're doing to write for your big project really THAT scary?
Get a good writer and get a good artist and you'll have an extra good thing! What a concept!
I think it may come down to issues of control and entitlement, the kind that "Art School Brats" could have in spades
I think they are more afraid to hear that their ideas are bad or that their grand magnum opus while in reality is worse than dog shit is the same thinking that many bad book authors have, that editors going to destroy their books while in reality just going make them readable. And like Neil HD said they want control
Max Schreck or show her Howard McKenzie from Lastman
My guess is that they have a sense of entitlement thinking that they know better and underestimate writing as a craft. It takes a careful understanding of storytelling elements through practice, reading, taking classes and studying from countless great books on screenwriting. It’s just as challenging as learning how to animate, like any other skill.
In my experience as a novice writer trying to audition for fan works I’ve been rejected with the same excuse of _we don’t need writers, we can do it ourselves_
And in the rare instance they are looking for writers they’re given little to no freedom in the story, having to abide by the director’s crappy vision, who has no idea on what he/she is doing and can’t tell a good story for shit.
So, I suppose that Art School animators approach show running with the same attitude. It’s their baby and they don’t want anyone to meddle with it or tell them the hard truth, that perhaps their vision isn’t that great to begin with.
As some who was an actual child when avatar aired, I honestly forgot about alot of the serious stuff until I was all the stuff online about it. I remember liking when Toph beat the ever loving shit out of people. The same with teen Titans, all I honestly remember is thinking cyborg was cool and Raven was pretty. The only "serious" thing I remember is trouble in Toyo because it scared the shit out of me.
When i was little my parents bought DVDs of the whole seasons and me and my siblings watched it religously. Honestly i was much interested in the katara x aang romantic subplot that anything else 😂
One of the best 90s show that I think perfectly blends the slice of life/mature themes idea is Hey Arnold! That show was, at it's core, a show about a kid named Arnold and the various weird adventures he got into with his friends and neighbors. And the show largely kept that tone for much of the series for as much as I remember. HOWEVER! The series took the slice of life concept very seriously, showing that, surprise surprise, not everybody has an easy life and everybody has different issues in their lives both trivial and serious. Now that concept could VERY EASILY turn into the over hyped grimdark idea you speak of, but Hey Arnold! takes them very seriously and shows that recovery from those issues is a process. Hell, there is an entire episode focusing on Helga going to a therapist, which for the time period was a major step forward and showed kids that therapy and actually talking through your issues with a professional is helpful. I just really love Hey Arnold!
Exactly why I have such a high praise for that show above most cartoons that think they're mature but completely fall flat on their faces. Even if you look at the Parents Day/Journal/Jungle Movie arc as something a bit farfetched regarding the inclusion of Indiana Jones-esque elements, the episode Parents Day ends on a note that implies Arnold's parents may not be alive after all this time, but Arnold is coming to terms with it and has a greater appreciation for who/what he has in his life. Hell, the original ending to The Jungle Movie was to have Arnold find that his parents were actually dead. But, I'm glad they didn't go that way. Sure having them dead sounds more realistic, but Arnold deserved that happy ending.
Lily mentioned “Dave The Barbarian” and that made me happy.
People who say shows like invader zim, teen titans and my little pony are deep, bruting, dark shows give off the same vibe as karens who say, "This show is traumatizing to my 17 year old, take it off the network now."
The ending of the Era of Horse
My problem near the end of MLP and i saw this was friendship seemed more like something that never needed to be maintained, that near the end, just having friends was enough and you just kinda never had drama or fights. I have had the same 3 friends for the past several years and we still get under eachothers nerves and sometimes on purpose. But in the last friendship was never tested really, Not to mention what i saw they did to my favorite pony Twilight. She had like 2 modes. Chronic over thinker and paranoid, or Magic Sage that knew EVERYTHING about friendship and just how to fix any situation. But i still loved MLP and the decade of stuff it gave me.
Honestly people being condescending to kids always gets to me. Though I personally have a lot of ideas I want to make into comics and shows, I kind of tend not to think about the audience when i write down ideas. I mostly just think of whatever I think would be cool as shit and less about like...teaching a lesson. Definitely if I made a show for kids I would want to impart good lessons like "hey you dont have to keep in touch with toxic family" and "hey maybe don't spread yourself thin just to make people like you" or something like "if you're sad all the time for little or no good reason maybe talk to a counselor or something" I guess mostly just stuff I wish I had learned as a kid
There are people who are upset and complaining over Lotso from Toy Story 3 didn’t get redeem after Woody and Buzz saved his life but I’m glad he didn’t because he would have suffered the same problem as Starlight Glimmer, other MLP post-Rainbow Rocks villains and the Diamonds from SU. Even with his tragic backstory, that doesn’t automatically make up his actions he has caused: abusing his friends, torturing and imprisoning innocent toys, literally treated every toy he came across as garbage, and becoming a fascist dictator over for being replaced by his former owner. Yeah, you need more than that to fix that monster. Besides, he got what he deserves in the end.
Edited: Plus, it shows that if you end up saving someone who has done terrible things and shows no improvements at all, there will be consequences.
Wait really? People were mad that Lotso wasn't redeemed? How is that even possible?!
Like you said, he was a total d!ck to every toy at the preschool. Who thought a d*ck like that should be redeemed?
Makes me glad I watched and re-watched Phineas and Ferb. It is funny and its own thing.
"... as well as the logical end-point for any straight marriage."
Come again?
You know... this is an extremely interesting video that I keep coming back to, mostly because I think Lily hit the nail on the head about the attitude of art students going into animation. It reminds me a lot of some advice I had indirectly received.
Freshman year I had overheard a professor talking to another student. He'd asked him what brought the guy here and why he wanted to go into animation. The guy immediately starting talking about how it was the way animation told stories, how much he wanted to make a show that was meaningful and tell stories in the same way. The professor then told him he should probably consider a different major, because that's not what the animation major is for. It's about learning how to animate, not how to tell stories. If he wants to animate, great; if he wants to tell stories, he needs to go learn how to tell stories.
It made me re-evaluate why I wanted to go into the animation major if learning to animate wasn't actually what I wanted to do.
18:05 Ah yes, kids are way too young to properly handle death. But a show centering around a war with genocidal tyrants, themes of abuse, and redeeming psychopaths is way more appropriate for kids.
Seriously, what's the logic behind a defense like that? I know people desperately want to say that these "complex" shows are good, but you'd think the hypocrisy would just smack them in the face at some point.
Two words, Lion king.
Anyone that believes children shouldn´t watch lion king must be living in a grey ass world ( also add most disney movies)
The creators are beginner writers writing fanfics about what they wanted their favorite shows and characters to do, hence all the contradictory ideas and hypocritical themes
No, Lily you are not the only person that wants cartoons to teach kids non-bullshit lessons.
I'd like to point out how many kids actually like show that arn't even ment for there age group. Kids love games like fnaf or Hello Neighbor, or whatever other horror game that has murder or child kidnapping. Why? Because a lot of games like that don't cut out any of the bullshit. It's give what's promised without backing out and doesn't treat them like they've never heard of death before. It's stupid to censor shit from kids and saying it's for the greater good because kids will only want it more.
Btw I'm not saying to shove any of that edgy shit in but just know your not writing for a 3 year old kids arn't as stupid as a lot of people think.
I watched Naruto when I was like 5 and that has quite a bit of death, blood, mild swears, and partial nudity, and it was great. That shoe is a blast.
@@nanoff815 Gotta love watching a guy's heart get ripped out and still beating at ten years old... Those were the days
@@TheDoggoPearl That happened in Naruto?
It's why I was disappointed Sonic Boom got so shafted by their TV Network. They avoided all the crap and was focused on character humour with slice of life while also having well placed humour about the franchise. However, CN really wanted the show to die and gave it the worst possible TV Slots for ratings... It only lasted 2 seasons and I wished it went for 1 more.
Unfortunately that was dead on arrival since the game it was based on was a bust
@@ShadowDOA If you look at the ratings for Season 1, it drew in decent amount of viewers despite to poor slot. You notice the decline in Season 2 the moment CN put it on Boomerang
@@ShadowDOA I'm pretty sure it was the other way around, Rise of Lyric and Shattered Crystal being a tie-in to the cartoon. The low budget and glitchiness, the show being announced first, it all seems to point to it being the show first, then the games being rushed out to go with. Heck, IIRC, the Sonic Boom games were announced at a press conference about the show.
The Sonic Boom cartoon had no business being as smart as it was. It was scary at times.
@@RooftopRose079 yeah tbh it was pretty good being based on the game it was based on
I want to make my own story someday, but I don’t want it to be a carbon copy of Last Airbender. Sure, I’m a fan of the series (sans the comics and sequel), and am even inspired by it, but I don’t want to be a mimicry, I just want to make a story I’ll have fun with, and people can just join in on the fun.
The Character most people like: Zuko or Katara
The character I will always treasure as the best: Sokka
Yes
My favourites or Sokka and Zulu, dudes being in emotional pain was always totally hot and heartbreaking at the same time. I'm weird I know
I'm more of a toph fan myself
@@ghostphantom8453 Same! Although...Katara made me take a careful look at myself...I could easily be THAT friend, at times...^^;
@@justjukka lol yeah
Oh I don’t want avatar to come back.
It told its story, it ended, now move on.
No live action reboot.
I rather have fond memories of the show and if the next generation asks fir it then I show them the original show.
we dont need more avatars.
It's even worse now, that a live action tv show has been announced by Netflix. I am REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hoping that it is a rumour and never becomes official. The movie was already a stain to the legacy of ATLA, we don't need a live action tv series to taint it even more. Just leave ATLA alone, and let it rest in it's legacy.
Lauren Kuelker exactly. And if we want a story about Iroh ‘s past we can get it in comic form
It's so difficult to find a show that's at least halfway decent and teaches okay lessons. One thing that bothers me to this day is that with MLP in particular is that it portrayed serious clinical anxiety as quirky and shy. That message pushed young me away from seeing a doctor and low and behold I was diagnosed with social anxiety disorder and panic disorder.
On top of that it upsetted me that Gilda got a redemption because her original episode helped me break off a toxic friendship with someone who called me an abuser for saying he couldn't produce child pornography
Full Metal Alchemist, it's a show that has war, off screen rape, genocide, questioning what it means to be human, and it doesn't have dumb redeeming villains. The villains are actually one of the best parts of the show.
It's been a year, but Danger & Eggs is a kids series that teaches good lessons. I wish more people had watched it so that it could have gotten more seasons.
New children’s show that avoids that terrible shit: *exists*
Pretentious art graduates: Oh boy, here I go killing again
As a writer, treat everything (dialog, lore, appearance, jokes, scenes, tones, themes, etc) this way: make sure it matters to the story. If it does, why did I put it in there and not in my notes?
I would enjoy shows that did stuff like Dave the Barbarian and Kim Possible even gargoyles, I just would love variety and shows that actually entertain and not try and have us cling to a big dramatic story
dont blame Avatar, bad writers of bad shows that try to both take themselves seriously and not seriously at the same time have always been around, i honestly cant think of an example right now off the top of my head, but the problem isnt trying to chase Avatar, or Teen Titans, or anything like that, its the idea of taking two things that cant work together and seeing if smashing them together hard enough can make something, Star Vs. could have been alright if it stuck to an episodic format with a laughably bad villain and heroes who beat that villain by whatever weird and wakey thing pulled out for that episode, or it could have been good being a story about war, revisionist history, and the causes and effects of racism, the problem was trying to do both, Avatar worked so well because it always took itself seriously, and while sometimes sitcom style shows can have serious episodes, those tend to be large scale things, the joke villain that was never really a problem before got the thing hes always been trying to get, only to find out he wasnt such a joke, but even then, its almost never done with a joke villain either
So what I got from this is if I want to make my super cute lesbian fantasy story into a good show I got to take writing and animation classes in college thanks Lilly.
This is why it makes me sad whenever silly shows like Wander Over Yonder, We Bare Bears, Rise of the TMNT get shoved aside for the badly written story driven and angst focused shows like Star VS and Steven Universe. It just really sucks :/
@@unicornbunny5439 At least in Wander Over Yonder the genocidal villain was actually fun and didn't get redeemed in the end
This Glass of Water has made me ask a few questions. How come no one else noticed that the only real contribution of Avatar the Last Airbender was the use of a framing device as a function of episodic storytelling? Why does my generation hate children so much? Why did so many not see Teen Titans as no more than the action flavored sitcom that it was? Why didn't anyone try to train the current generation of show writers, or at least sell them on learning creative writing as part of their animation degrees? Why do so many writers for children shows repeatedly try to mix the literary equivalent of oil and water and still expect it to work?
If I'm asking this many questions, then you are clearly doing something right.
@@nanoff815"Fullmetal Alchemist" might not be the best example. That show is aimed more towards adults.
The same problem you describe of chasing Avatar is paralleled in other places, like The Hobbit chasing the LoTR trilogy. We get extended editions of the LoTR movies to add a bunch of the fluff back in that the lore types craved, and The Hobbit bloats itself from square one to trilogy status by cramming in material from the Silmarillion. They might as well have kept in Tolkien's ramblings about an old tree Bilbo saw, they were so busy stretching for that 3x3 hour+ movie format.
I don't mind the extended editions. I always thought that was what was originally filmed but the theatrical versions were shortened.
This has given me a lot to think about. I wanna be a screenwriter but a damn good one.
5:10
I expected her to say “I failed me” instead
It would have been better tbh
Even if Avatar didn't air there would be another good TV show to fill its place. People would just be saying the next Teen Titans or the next Thunder Cats or something
lily what do you think of cozy glow's fate? because that shit has me fuckin fuming. the literal abusers get countless chances for redemption and horrid characters are given special treatment but a literal fuckin child gets frozen in stone, something that's basically equivalent to killing her?
what the fuck even.....
also i miss dave the barbarian like crazy.....
Damn, gurl.
like...
Damn. how you manage to say half the things I try to, but actually MANGE to make it understandable? aaaaaaaa Thanks for the mental floss though, really.
I like how Rise of the TMNT has some story arcing moments, but I love it how they are mainly one off adventures. That's one of the reasons why I prefer Rise of the TMNT over TMNT 2012.
most new kids cartoon wants to be avatar, most new indie rpg wants to be earthbound, and most new anime wants to be exactly identical to every other one. inspiration is good, but trying to make a spiritual successor to your favorite media will rarely work, especially if you don’t take large efforts to understand why you like it.
I disagree with the anime thing alot, new anime are being experimental but the big titles you see are all shonen that follow the shonen formula
As a Rwby fan this really spoke to me, because even though I love Rwby to death it's pretty clear that show could be the poster child for this critical writing flaw in 2010s animation.
to loosely quote scott cawthon, and summarize how i worldbuild, "sometime the continuity and the world become so cluttered, it becomes difficult to tell an actual story"
I remember my best friend and I in the first or second grade talking about how much we adored the show cause it taught you how to be a good friend now I wish I could tell old me that I was in for a world of shit a few years later
Exactly the same for me. When I was a kid I had a bunch of issues with kids my age, and the show helped with a lot of that. I lost interest after season five, which I guess is a good thing. I'm not sure if I would let my own kid watch MLP. Sure some episodes in the later seasons are good, but only a handful.
@Unstoppable Plays! She's exactly the reason for me. She reminds me too much of really bad people that were in my life.
Unstoppable Plays! Yeah she took a huge shit on the show, the fandom and my childhood
@Unstoppable Plays! that's why I'd say the show ended at season 4. While later seasons had a good set of episodes that were fine, Starlight ticked me off so much when she wasn't rightfully punished for going batshit insane at the end of s5.
That, and s4 had a more satisfying conclusion to the series for me.
you make a really fair point about avatar, i feel time and time again people looking too much in to shows for the next avatar
Frontal cortex: glad to have another video addressing writing, historical issues within the industry, map etc.
Reptilian brain: MORE CONTRA STOMP
Honestly the "we can't kill the diamonds because it's a kids show" excuse is complete fucking bullshit, the show literally made the most important revelation be that a character "killed" another character before Sugar started showing her true colors and shitty writing and lack of basic fucking self control.
My daughter watches this show, and I have never been more aware about the lessons being so different and even wrong it’s a good thing she watches more for the color
I agree with what you say on how most shows are trying to be the next Avatar and really, you can also put some of the blame on the Marvel Cinematic Universe as well. Thanks to those films IMO, a lot of shows and film series nowadays have to somehow be connected to each other. I mean, I'm down for a good ol' crossover episode every once in a while, but why can't shows and movies just be their own things anymore?
kinda wild that of all things the show I grew up on, fucking ninjago, even in its worst seasons, still recognises that sometimes evil fascists are just evil fascists and deserve to be killed without a second thought given to it.
How many villains were redeemed? Garmadon, Harumi(?), Ronin(?), Morro, Dragon hunters(except Iron Baron), Ultra Violet(?), Killo(?)
@@burner555 we don't talk about crystalized.
but yea, all of the antagonists who get "redeemed" are all people who were either already more antiheroes than straight-up villains (ronin, soto, skales), misguided kids (lloyd, morro, harumi kinda, unagami), people who were corrupted and so their bad actions weren't fully in their control (garmadon, various good guys who are temporarily turned bad), or henchmen (basically all of them).
but people like pythor, the overlord, chen, clouse, the time twins, iron baron, vex, vangelis, trimaar, and from the looks of it the villains of the new show, are never given any such sympathy. pythor is probably the closest to being sympathetic, and has also probably done the least actually wrong.
it's not really a matter of quantity, it's a matter of who is given sympathy. and in ninjago it's always the henchmen who are supported in integrating back into society while the people at the top, who are actually responsible, are condemned. so many other shows get this backwards.
There is a benefit to being a writer growing up in this age. When it's my time, the path will have been paved with the blood of Steven Universe. I'm really grateful that we have a bunch of poorly written Avatar clones, and a good cabal of critics articulating why they failed. These are healthy writing and production lessons to go forward with regardless of age demographic.
The weirdest thing about MLP and their forgiveness is... everyone is forgiven. No matter the crime. And then, it comes to a child... and is she forgiven? Ohhhhh no. She is first condemed to hell and then... capital punishment. To a child. Seriously. But that mind fucking dictator? Well she is fine. despite remaining terrible. Tempest? Ohhh she is forgiven. Pony of Shadow... well, forgiven.
We all know, Cozy Glow is evil, but why write her as a child in the first place, if you plan such an ark? What sets her apart?
Damn. I'll be honest, I probably fall into that cloud of TT fans who only remember the darker storylines. I got my hands on the first season of it recently and rewatched it and. Wow.
The only differences between old TT and TTG is the humor is slightly sharper in quality and the animation isn't as bright or obnoxious.
I'm worried about season 2 of Amphibia bc I don't want it to become bloated with world building and ANGST. As it stands, I feel like Amphibia has a perfect balance between comedy and mystery. There's an ongoing story, but the episodes are self contained for the most part and it doesn't feel like I'm watching a Feels Fest. I'm excited that there's going to be new areas to explore and Marcy is going to appear, but I don't want that to overtake the show. I just want to watch a human and some amphibians have wacky hijinks.
So it's like the watchmen effect, isn't it?
That " give me money, give me money! GIVE ME MONEY! *GIVE ME MONEY!* " intro is almost bound to mame someone support you eventualy just because of how funny it is XD
This is why I love Winx Club so much, well at least the first 3 seasons, it’s a good mixture a both action and slice of life, while still reaching a large variety of fan from all ages.
Hey Lily! Love your work, this is just a supportive comment in hopes to make someone's day! For people who see this, you should have a good day too!
I tend to see a lot of people in the cartoon community go on and on about how certain shows need to be taken seriously and how they’re more than just children’s shows,but then they’ll immediately proceed to use the “it’s for kids” excuse as soon as someone does take it seriously but for the purpose of criticism. Believe me I saw a lot of that when people were talking about your Steven Universe video.
Imagine if F.R.I.E.N.D.S was in middle earth, thats the clash
The one where Monica gets eaten by orcs and Phoebe runs away to live with the ents.
When you said that 10 y/o’s can handle murder, I keep thinking about when in early Clone Wars, a dude literally shot his friend in the face just for not being good enough.
Good characters can carry a bad plot but good plot can’t carry bad characters. Characterization is what people come for. To see lovable well made characters to follow.
I always get excited when I see a Glass of Water video in my feed makes my day even if I don’t watch it right away
7:48
Thanks Lily, I needed to hear that
"What the fuck does that mean, you mashed potato!" is something I might be saying from now on...
this needed to be said and that is the big problem with a lot of modern cartoons today they look good and their premise is great but it all falls apart over the writing. in particular on the topic of forgiveness as Starlight Glimmer, the Diamonds, Kylo Ren and Toffee are all committed genocide, yet are precented as either sympathetic at "best" or "heroic"at worst.
I very much envy your ability to put so much substance into your work whilst at the same time maintaining brevity; you said more in 20 minutes here (and said it better) than many a 2-hour documentary could have. Excellent work, as ever.
As for MLP... I stopped watching after season 3 (and no, not because of the whole Twilight-gets-her-wings thing) and stayed away for several years. I came back in between the end of season 8 and the start of season 9, remembering how much I enjoyed those first couple of seasons, and mistakenly thinking that playing catch-up would be fun and enjoyable... it wasn't, for many of the very reasons you outlined here.
Revenge of the Sith featuring "the logical end point for any straight marraige" really makes me worried about my parents. Maybe I should give 'em a call. 😂
Another nice video Lily! Interesting take on the old vs new perspective on cartoon writing and how visual artists are trying to take the helm of script writing and plotting.
I find it's similar to what I learned in theatre school about Spectacle vs Substance. Is Phantom of the Opera enjoyable because a guy made a musical that would look and sounded cool? Yeah. Will people pretend it's enjoyable because the Phantom is so dark complex and romantic despite being based on the writer and his rose tinted view of what is now his horrifically failed marriage? Also yes.
My favorite line: what the f*ck does that mean you mash potato?!?
IT GEts mE Every TImE!! 😆
Reminds me when I showed the bronies Lastman and they seem to love it because it is an action cartoon while Steven Universe fans won’t watch it. They would role play their favourite ponies as the characters in Lastman until they saw episode 13 where the Gilda character they role played was experimented in prison and a psychotic child that viciously harassed another kid where the bronies starting to feel uncomfortable. They were fine with episode 21 for some reason. The final nail to The Coffin was when they see the Twilight Sparkle character that they role played betrayed his friends and kills the fluttershy character they role played just so he can escape to another world costing the lives of others in episode 24 and 25. And they wouldn’t watch the final episode which has the theme of loss because of that.
I was a bit of a "casual viewer", I felt like a lot of the episodes weren't all that interesting or relied too much on some kind of gimmick. The only reason I stilled followed it was because I liked Discord, and even then his episodes felt kinda lack luster towards the last two seasons. It reminds me of how the first two Harry Potter movies were light with a few serious elements but did a complete tonal shift for the rest of the movies so that they were all dark and angsty. Yeah the books were dark, but they had a more gradual progression.
'What the fuck does that mean you mashed potato' best phrase I have heard out of pretty much anyone ever.
I just realised, if the animation silver age looks appealing on first viewing, but is then found to have morals that break easily and are fundamentally toxic, shouldn't it be called the Antimony age of animation?
The problem with asking for media that teaches good lessons is that morality is subjective and based on the individual.
If morality was something consistent throughout all of culture and all people then building a society based off of what is morally right and wrong would be a walk in the park for our species.
Perfect example of this is how they are actual people on this planet that believe that it is morally justifiable to be sexually attracted to children.
Back in 2016 or so, a fellow MLP toy collector told me that the one big difference between bronies and like... normal fans is that normal fans look at something and go “how does this match in with my interests” whereas bronies looked and MLP and asked “how can I MAKE this fit my interests”
The fact that Starlight doesn't learn anything is eerily consistent with the fact that she receives no punishment. Almost like the writers did it intentionally and had her learn nothing because she wasn't punished. Maybe one writer in the back was paying attention.
i think the problem with a lot of cartoons trying to "be like avatar" (for lack of better phrase, not that i disagree with it) is that if avatar is the pinnacle of children's animation... these creators have to realize that they need to actually work to get there. a problem i had with art was that i wanted to draw hyper-realistic stuff from the get-go, but i had to learn other skills first. there's nothing wrong with cartoons that are simple or formulaic; a cartoon doesn't have to be the next avatar to be enjoyable or worthwhile.
a lot of these cartoons try too hard to be mature but lack the actual understanding of what maturity is beyond "stuff that's for adults but make it for kids." and because of that, a lot of creators lack the skill to write small stories, and yet try to overcompensate so they can make big ones.
i think the focus itself is on the wrong thing. people want the legacy of avatar, they want to be the "it cartoon" with mature storytelling and a big, immersive world, but they lack the ability to make it happen. the point should be to make a good, enjoyable show. the subconscious idea that any cartoons that aren't "mature" are made for babies is what's killing a lot of these shows. they don't respect the small stories that are needed so you can make bigger ones, and thus lack any skill required to actually make bigger stories.
i've rambled a lot already, but as a kid, i noticed the sudden turns into bigger story-telling and it was almost always jarring. i loved all kinds of stories as a kid, don't get me wrong, but even i could tell when shows would abandon the good thing they had to try and follow the trend, so to speak.
TLDR; simple stories are as good as complex stories, but because so many people don't get this, they skip out on simple stories and don't learn the necessary skills to make complex stories.
Psst just in case you haven’t seen it yet, Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts is probably the best kid’s shown I’ve seen in a while. It’s got monster fights, appropriate drama, adventure and representation that doesn’t hide behind fake labels.
as a long time MLP fan, im happy to finally see a proper critique i can agree with. the later seasons are definitely out of touch with the show's original purpose. cant stand starlight 😖
Yeah people in this industry really need to see that kids aren’t brain dead and know how to process complex things. Like when I was a kid and there was a villain who miraculously turned good I was like “Excuse me didn’t you just try to kill them a season ago??”. And hopefully, for MLP, kids do have some skepticism about redeeming everyone. Because, from what I see with Gen Z, kids are somewhat learning to not always trust everything adults say. Avatar was a great show, but people need to stop trying to copy it. Make a good show. Not a copy.
You mentioned The Powerpuff Girls! Well, the reason why I love the show? It’s because of my favourite characters from the show, or because of the episodes. Like my favourite episodes are: Little mis interprets, Oops I did it again, The boys are back in the town, Bubble boy, Boys toys, Custody battle, Blundercup, Bubbles the blue, Home sweet homesick, etc.
Me: Eating lunch while watching Lily roast the soul out of people
Lily: A lot of people on the internet are lonely and seeking to be part of a group and aren't good at building a social group on their own.
Me: SHIT SHIT SHIT I'VE BEEN CALLED OUT.
Saying that the damage Avatar caused wasn't worth how great it was.... wow, I really felt that... I felt that cause you're right. Avatar was such a monumentally amazing show that everyone and their mother praised to the high heavens, and now the people who grew up with that show are now in the animation industry, and.... God, these shows are just the worst. Can't we go back to the good old days? Except, you know, with Gay Princesses in it?
Aww I like dragon prince, I got the impression it was going pretty well with it’s characters and world building. It doesn’t feel forced to me.. yet.
If it does falls on its face I wouldn’t be too surprise but I’ll keep hope for now c’:
Honestly western shows are the reason why I watch anime. Anime isn't afraid to go into deeper topics while still being appropriate for kids. As a preteen/teen, there's next to no western shows on TV that I like bc they all either are for 6 year olds or middle aged parents who think offensive jokes are funny. People just can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that preteens can handle darker topics. Hell, I'm 13 and watched Banana Fish and Attack on Titan for fucks sake (which are both rated TV-MA).
Since you talked about Steven Universe for a bit:
I read somewhere that Steven Universe had the storyboard artists in place of writers, and that would explain why the show was all over the place. I don't dislike Steven Universe but I wouldn't bother watching reruns like I would with other shows--and I mean shows of the 90s/00s. People knew what they were doing then.
Off topic, but that was a pretty good Goofy voice.