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Shaft Flex Makes No Difference or Does It?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2014
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Shaft Flex Makes No Difference or Does It? Mark Crossfield PGA professional AskGolfGuru with the help of Steve Buzza talks about how to improve your golf game by focusing on the most important aspects. This video challenges shaft flex and the affects it has on the golf ball and your golf game. With the help of GC2 HMT Mark custom fits Steve and talks about why the shaft he chooses might or might not affect his performance on the golf course. Play your best golf with Mark's simple and easy to understand golf videos are helping golfers from all around the world.
What about the difference between a regular flex and a stiff, or x-stiff? When I've hit a regular flex club with a 105mph swing speed it doesn't feel like the club head is impacting the ball properly.
It's amazing how many different opinions there are on shafts. Personally, I play a certain flex because I like the feel of it. I know a bad shot is due to a poor swing. On the other hand there are so many people who think that a stiffer flex will make them hit the ball a certain way, especially a stiffer flex reducing a slice, It won't!
Buy the shaft that makes you happy though, ultimately it's your money.
Hello Mark. I admire the boldness of your statement and you make a good argument. The title of your video is misleading however. In order to see any difference between an S and X shaft you would have to posses a ridiculously high swing speed. If you were to use a L flex in a 40g shaft I assure you that hitting target would be very difficult and accuracy would suffer greatly. So yes, shaft does matter, but maybe not for the average golfer obsessing over S vs X.
I realize this is 3 years ago and maybe your views have changed but I play off 4 and I am gaming a 55g S flex shaft with a standard swing speed between 116 to 119 (fastest measured at 124) and have absolutely no problems with it. Every time I hit a big hook someone immediately tells me oh it's because that shaft is too soft for you. They don't seem to thing that striking it 1mm from the top right edge of the club had anything to do with it. I usually hit my driver 280 - 300 depending on strike and I have taken my father in laws senior flex 40g shaft and hit it the exact same distance as well as with 75g xx flex shafts. The only difference is the perceived weight difference in the hand. In fact I usually get much better results the lighter the shaft gets. I find that with the heavier ones I feel the weight and start thinking I need to swing harder and that leads to a lot of bad shots as strike is immediately sacrificed. Shaft makes no difference other than the perceived weight and how each individual reacts to it. Shafts measured on a robot perform no different regardless of the weight, torque, tip, flex. If you strike any club in the middle it will perform the same regardless of the shaft attached.
Thanks Mark for doing these videos. Maybe you should do a video where you hit a 40g shaft and an 80g shaft and look at the numbers. Keep up the great work.
Hi Mark!
If you are a really good player like the Buzzman it doesn't matter which shaft you use in X or S from the same company.
But it makes a huge difference which shaft from which company you use.
Some months ago I did a fitting for my new set of irons (Titleist 714 CB 2-PW). I'm a pretty good ball striker by way and a variety of shafts are working really good for me. For example: Project X Riffle 5.5, 5.8,6.0, Dynamic Gold S300,S400.
I chose Dynamic Gold S300 because I have a very good feeling with these shafts.
BUT there was a KBS shaft with which I hit all over place!!!
I'm convinced that there are some shafts out there which are absolutly not working for me.
I'm not saying that KBS shafts are bad, I'm sure that they are great shafts but for some reasons there are not working for me. (Weight and flex point???)
And I have an idea for another video. I'm using in my driver and in my 3 wood the same shaft (Matrix 7m3 Black Tie).
Why do so many people use different shafts in their woods?
What do you think?
Best regards Martin
I believe that the weight and flex of the shaft are important, but fall secondarily to how aggressively the player transfers from the top to impact, corresponding to the level of torque in the shaft. Mark and Buzza talk a lot about feel and stability. That stability is due to a lower torque shaft. TORQUE is the KEY!!!!!! Just like Mizuno performs shaft optimization on irons, it really can be done for woods too. Which coincidentally they do have a driver shaft optimizer tool in Japan; not sure if they use it in the UK, but here in the US we don't fit with it.
Anyway, if we take my swing stats and equipment into account; My average clubhead speed is around 86mph. "Back Surgery and getting older sucks". Though I have the swing speed that fits most R flex shafts, I have a very quick and aggressive move from the top. Because of this move I cannot play an shafts that have a torque level higher than 3.4. For me I need to feel the clubhead being stable through impact and if that torque number gets any higher I can feel the clubhead twisting through the impact area and the flex of the club at the moment of impact.
I play the Mizuno JPX 850 Driver set neutral at 9.5, Fujikura Motore Speeder Tour Spec S flex 67g, standard length. My weights are set neutral in the mid and rear position. I felt like I really had to go at this shaft to get the club to work for me, which was causing erratic results. I wanted to go with something a lighter, but with less torque. So I made the switch to the Graffaloy ProLaunch Blue 65 R Flex 64g weight with only 3.2 torque. It is a higher launching shaft so I changed my loft to 7.5, weights forward and draw bias. Now I'm able to have a more controlled swing, therefore I'm making more consistent contact on the face and gained about 8 yards of distance. Going with a softer flex has allowed my body to not feel the aches and pains of fighting the aggressive swing that I was using before.
Tell me what you think.....
My swing speed and shaft loading would indicate I need reg flex in my irons. But I just like the feel and ball flight os stiff flex. Have been playing DGS300S for years now.
Nice one Mark. I've x stiff on my driver but only swing 97mph. I love the feel of it. I thought I was daft with x stiff but I noticed no difference in ball flight, draw/fade consistency. When I hit the ball the club feels solid and I like it. I was about to change R which is "the norm" for my swing speed. Glad I saw this video first :-)Cheers
I think the feel part is key. I use a stiff shaft in my driver and a regular shaft in my 3 wood. I didn't get too technical when testing, just what felt good. The numbers were pretty similar. So I just went with what felt the best which gives me more confidence. I don't think about the shaft when swinging, all focus is on good contact.
This is a very interesting study on feel. As you stated in the later part of the video, that feel can have a massive psychological effect on the golf swing. In the same way that a golf grip (Winn Grip for example) can make you feel like you are going to hit a bad shot, a whippy shaft can make you feel like the shaft isn't stable enough for your golf swing.
Never been on a launch monitor, let alone been fitted. I've hit quite a number of clubs recently (more of a focus on irons) and "feel" the most comfortable with regular flex (driver, fairways, and hybrids are stock stiff). I have most recently hit Adams V4 forged with a stiff shaft and struck it well, so I'd be feel good NOT in a regular. I am 52 and an average golfer (now breaking 90 consistently) who is improving with more play, though lessons could help me (after 40 years of playing) more than a fitting. Because feel is the most important factor to me, I am looking into forged heads along with forgiveness (Mizuno JPX EZ, in particular, felt amazing). Neither my game nor my wallet are fine tuned enough to test the plethora of excellent quality shafts that are available today. My testing/search continues...
Hi Mark, The reason I have moved to an extra stiff shaft in my driver starts with years of trouble with drivers that were draw biased, I found that when driving off with ball placed off my front foot the driver face would be pointing left at impact. I moved to open faced drivers details beow and this was a game changing moment for me. Now I face hitting the ball right with the open face drivers if I go for it, these open drivers are square at impact position when addressing the ball but with a softer flex at impact when swinging the shaft is bent opening the face up, moving to x stiff keeps the impact square and generally I hit pefect draws and can change the shape at will.
Curently I am switching between three drivers the Cleveland TL310 which I beleive is 2 degrees open, the new 588 Cleveend Custom which I have at 1.5 open and am experimenting with shafts for flight. and a Nike VR LTD which I have just re shafted in extra stiff.
Now not sure when it comes to irons what to do, and I can see flex would make less difference in these shorter clubs maybe and I do seem to prefer lighter clubs.
Hi Mark,
Tell us a little bit more about fitting of a shaft!!! As I have found with companies the stock shaft is not great for me. The only company which I have trusted for fitting is Cleveland who got me into a Tour shaft which also shows the flex and stiffness through the whole of the shaft.
Mark,
I find a lot of people nowadays get so enthralled with the whole shaft discussion, but i do find that it is the fitters in the pro shops etc. sell it to the purchaser and cause for the over engagment into what shaft is required blah blah... an example being my father went to a shop and asked to try and few drivers and get one custom fit, the guy told him he needed a stiff shaft for his swing speed and optimun distance/launch angle/spin rate, instead of a regular and then he found within a few months the shaft FELT too stiff... so i agree with both you and Buzzar on the fact that its all down to feel and strike rather that shaft and degree and whatever else they throw at you but i do feel it is the custom fitters and golf bloggers that cause this issue..
love the video's, keep up the good work
Career-low round came at Doral 15 years back with a rental set of R-flex graphite shafts. Driver swing speed is 110 MPH and play off +1. I've saved the shaft-upgrade cash for extra beer money - always known the shaft nonsense was just a profit generator for club manufacturers.
And that's why pros use such an array....
Never thought of it. Maybe R-flex RCH-90 graphite is my optimum shaft!
Richard Gaule And they switch shafts regularly. Why if they have the perfect custom shaft setup? They are mental just like the the rest of us.
Here's my .02 cents: I had this same "flex" debate with my buddies several years ago. To prove my point I made two spined identical drivers, one S and one X. Made two identical hits from the same position (even put the balls on the same tee). When we got down the fairway, the two balls were less than two inches apart. So what's the deal from S to X? Feedback. With constant feedback from the club head lag during the swinging process, your mind knows exactly where the club head is at all times. The less lag, the less feedback. If your swing speed is too slow for your shaft flex, your feedback lessens and that lack of information to your subconscious can lead to mishits causing a loss of distance and direction. Over the years I've gone from XX, to X, to S, and now R as my swing speed has diminished due to age. In short, you want to use the stiffest possible shaft without sacrificing feedback during the swinging process.
Thank you, i wish my buddies saw you post, cause all they talk about is shaft, shaft, shaft! i would add to that anyone carrying a handicap, the shaft flex and type should be last thing they think about in golf. i would also make an argument that the type of glove, shirt and grips , and shoes you wear will have a bigger impact on your golf game than any shaft you use.
"True" good ball strikers are more intune and synergize their body with what they are trying to accomplish, so to them shaft doesn't matter but feel does make a difference to them. but unless you are at that level, concentrate on your quality of strike and the head you use. Mark can you please put out a video to stop all this nonsense and PROVE me right for once and for all. Lol
Bourne accident that makes a lot of sense to me. I have a R flex driver and can feel the lag significantly. Went to golf shop to to get a stiffer shaft got recommended XS didnt purchase yet and borrowed a friends XS for a round and hated it. As you put it i had no feedback from the lag and hit the R Flex just as far as the XS. My next driver will be a S flex as i will hopefully get that slight bit of lag for feedback. Thanks for your comment it puts things into perspective for me
Interesting article on GolfWRX today comparing launch data from numerous shafts that would seem to completely support what you're saying, although as expected the comments indicate that people read what they want to onto the results. I guess the question is, "if it feels different, will you swing differently and therefore get a different result?" In my experience yes, but the effect is short term and everything kind of settles back to the mean pretty quickly.
Here's the link if you're interested www.golfwrx.com/231525/iron-shaft-shootout-top-rated-steel-and-graphite-iron-shafts-get-put-to-the-test/?Newsletter+7%2F28%2F14&
This video is the best! I watched it a few years ago for the first time. Watch it again every now and then just because it's so helpful. Thanks for your insights, Mark!
Glad to hear this. I'll just stick with my old wooden shafts. ;)
I play off 5.6 . Clubhead speed with driver is 100mph and I use Regular Flex Aldila Voodoo in my Titleist 910d2. I also use regular flex throughout the bag. I feel happier with reg. Tried stiff and left I lost some "feel" and accuracy. Sure I hit it high but that's more of a setup issue, which naturally increases my dynamic loft but. X go with what feels good and performs better for you.
First love your videos! How about this concise theory Mark Crossfield - on centered, pure strikes (that is with no or negligible gear effect), flight's probably for all intents and purposes the same.
BUT on off-center strikes, the whippier shaft will probably let the face deflect a little more in all directions, resulting in more gear effect in all directions. Thin shots will have more backspin, toed shots will hook more, etc. I guess I assume whippy correlates with less torque.
Maybe the difference is negligible - but maybe not. I'd like to see this test done with Iron Byron and we'll see what's shaking! In fact a Mark Crossfield Iron Byron day would be a very special thing.
I agree with Mark, I've had two shafts (flex and stiff) and FEEL more comfortable with the stiff rather than the flex. The performance is the same, however I feel more confident with the stiff shaft. Thanks Mark. Speak to you soon.
Could not agree more with what you and buzzman stated. I for one have a swing speed between 102-105. Now I could swing faster but for consistency and in order to achieve better stikes at impact, I stay within this range. Now according to the "Shaftoids" I should only be using a regular flex but based on the testing of both an R and S, I "FEEL" that I have far more control of the clubhead through impact using Stiff. As far as results that I get from swinging both they are practically identical but for the sole fact that I "FEEL" more comfortable with the S, that's what I choose to play with.
Weaker shafts have a longer loading and unloading time during the swing and the opposite for stiffer shafts. Even the Iron Byron or the robot shows the difference on a shaft that is 240 cpm on the same weight and length vs a 270 cpm at the same weight and length. In fact the orientation of the club head in terms of lie angle ,face angle, loft and shaft aligning to center of gravity change as well with different flexes. So while in the above video there is hardly a change in the players stats on the monitor, it could well mean that both specifications are well off the mark or equally displaced from ideal. I would also check the frequencies and EXACT lengths of those 2 shafts as even a quarter of an inch can mean up to 2 swing weights. After being on tour for 10 years and tuning shafts for over 4, I can tell you that the FEEL of 2 swing weights is well noticeable. Also from shaft to shaft in the same manufacturer and code, there is a discrepancy in the flex, torque and oscillation making no two shafts alike. This makes the player's FEEL an important factor. In fact the better the player the more important the feel.
Mark, I get your point. But you admit that feel is really important. To me what really effects feel is torque. A high torque shaft like 4.0 or higher feels much softer and more responsive. The torque range in graphite is very broad but steel only ranges from about 1.8 to 2.1 in an iron, I can play either one. Length of shaft has a great effect also. If I try to swing an x flex driver, the feel is awful and the result even worse. With a A flex shaft on my driver I have to slow my transition or I will overpower the shaft.
Because the shaft is shorter, irons are less sensitive to flex. I can play S,R, or A flex with about the same result. So much depends on how the club head is delivered to the ball. One of the best things about golf is it’s an adjustable game, and that includes it’s equipment.
God vid Mark like this. Every time I go to buy a club all I hear is, What's your swing speed, blah blah blah seemingly just so they can sell me something completely different. Own a variety of flex shafts from an x 85 of the Cleveland van to a ladies flex mainly cuz they were cheap or free. As you say if I hit it out the middle it goes straight, if I don't it won't.
Love your videos Mark and great info. I've always felt that shaft flex wasn't that big a deal for us weekenders so to speak and like some below stated you can't tell that to some people. I have friends who insist on having stiff shafts because they think they swing that hard but it amazes me when I say swing my club (all R flex) there is no difference. Egos.
great comment. simple message but some find it hard to swallow. #santaisreal thanks for watching.
Speaking for myself, I have chosen shafts based on trying to get a better strike on the ball. I am more concerned with dispersion or keeping the ball in the fairway. So I have been looking at things like torque which is lower in more stiff, heavier shafts in general but does vary a lot from one shaft to another.
Additionally, I think we should consider shaft length as a very important factor in helping us make a better, more consistent strike particularly in view of standard driver lengths increasing over the years. Topic for another day.
my experience of being fitted for 2 drivers inc an sldr is that the feel is about the weight and weight distribution in a shaft and kick point. Interestingly i got a range of of about 8 yrds across 5 shafts all of which were labelled Stiff.
You video just pointed out that an S or an X of the same shaft give similar results, that's quite normal, An X will be heavier and have less torque over an S. But compare a R diamana kalil shaft with a 103 X whiteboard original, I think that you'll see a difference in ball flight with the same swing. I got fitted a week ago for à new set of iron. I was playîng a 5.5 PX, and my SS with a 6 iron was between 95 and 104 mph, with this shaft i was struggling get distance control. I was fitted for the C Taper X, réally loved the feel, I could definately feel the weight of the club.My SS was more consistent, within 99-100 mph and strike more centered, better distance control. I now need to know how to deloft an iron, because 21 degres of launch with a 6i and 45m apex, just lol, carrying only at 175m, i should carry 10, 15 meters more. That prouves that shaft are not magical, of You swing is not good, you'll hit bad shot and with any shaft
I like this because you may well save some people quite a few quid and at the same time re-focus their attention on what really matters. However, it appears to me that most golfers looking at shafts in so much detail are already good players. New is not always better, and I too go with feel. I am still playing with the RAC TP combo Irons with dynamic gold shaft which IMO are still the best set of blades Taylor made ever made. Great Vid Mark.
I bought a TM driver recently. I had a regular flex shaft then I had a stiff shaft put in. I feel like I hit it better ,but one could say I'm just getting more comfortable with the club. At the end of the day it depends on the person swinging.
#feel
I've played golf for years and consider myself a good player but have never really understood shafts. Ive always played R flex because thats what i was told suited my swing speed (7 iron mid 80's mph). whilst fitting for the Wilson FG 100 i was wanting to bring my trajectory down I was told to try a DG S300. However the trajectory went higher, dispersion tightened by 8-10 yes and distance went 10-12 yds further, certainly not what i was expecting. So i have to say flex does make a difference!
Spot on analysis! This subject is mirrored across many different sports and hobbies, and perhaps using non-golf examples may help to see the wood from the trees. I paint watercolour, do landscape photography, and play tennis. Most amateurs (which I am apart from watercolour) spend their time discussing the technical merits of paper quality, or spout technical data on camera lens sharpness and MTF charts, or opine over the best string configuration for a tennis racquet. But, their paintings are....well let's not be unkind....but they don't practise enough! Their photographs are blurred and generally have flat lighting because they don't get out and about taking photos, and learn how to hold a camera still. And they serve 10 double faults per set because the lure of sounding knowledgable on a forum is far more appealing than looking not quite as good as they think they are out on the court! Its the same with golf - get away from the tech forums and go and play more golf - it is infitinely more important than your staft flex!! Just saying!
golf is easy from their desks.
Well said.
You just summed me up.
This video helped me have a much better understanding. Thank you
Mark,
So theoretically a softer shaft might reduce spin given the tendency it has to promote a slightly higher strike on the face? That makes sense...especially since we see the strikes with the GC2 HMT. The question I would pose is not whether going from S to X or R to S makes much of a difference if any, but what about going from an A/L flex to X? I would think that would have a much bigger effect on the strike location. Any thoughts or data regarding that big of a jump? And of course we haven't even discussed that one companies S flex may be another companies R flex and that the flex profiles vary from model to model as there is no standardization...but that's obviously another topic altogether. On to part 2!
Very interesting, I use a reg in my MIZUNO 3 wood, and it feels too wobbly, when fitted the pro just simply showed me a matrix stating certain swing speeds should use certain flexes of shaft
This video convinced me to buy a Diamana red board senior flex because it was the cheapest since shafts don't matter.
Mark, great subject. You really know how to stir the pot. There is an excellent club fitting vid called Clubfitting - flat line oscillation by Frank Stranich Now this is something that might make a difference. The club he displays wobbles like a jelly tart. I also believe that if you had 13 cubs in the bag with very close shaft flex characteristics the results would be more consistent than a mixed bag. I reckon you ought to get your shafts fitted and see if it makes a difference to how you play, the feel and the results. Might have to rename you Birdfield.
great stuff Mark. I've been playing golf for 48 years. 60 years old in 3 weeks time. still off 5 handicap. all this equipment stuff makes me laugh. Tell em up n down from 100 yards in 6 times outa ten. That's what reduces NOS. BORING I know. but vary the practice, different lies etc & it's great fun . especially when you are collecting the dosh & being accused of good fortune.regards, John.
Mark,
I went to a place called Club Champion(Top100 Clubfitters in the US) and got my whole entire bag fit. We started with my irons and we found a shaft first. I was playing S300 shafts and we found out that the shaft unloads better with the Nippon 850R shaft even though I swing my irons 91MPH. I hit my 6iron 186 yards now vs. 174 yards. Once we fit my shaft, we went to heads and I was fit for a MP15 head(which I absolutely love). But when we went to my driver, my fitter and I weren't getting much different results with regular flex vs. stiff shaft at a swing speed of 103mph. Same was with my three wood. It seems like the results were similar here: the driver was not affected by shaft flex. How about irons? We used Trackman to fit. Thanks mark!
What did you measure strike with?
We used Trackman and some weird tool for shaft frequency. When you mean strike, do you mean something like GC2 HMT? I thought that and Trackman were similar
trackman does not see strike it is sat behind the ball.
Mark Crossfield I figured that it didn't measure strike. I was striking the ball out of the center of the club face almost every shot.
Effective sweet spot to geometric centre
Hi Mark - your videos are great and in my view much better than what comes out of the USA - perhaps us Brits have a different way of seeing and learning? But although you are a great teacher of golf - your maths needs improving - 201 difference in speed not 101. I guess the golf course was more important than school - hehehe
Question: I have a really whippy 5 wood - can't play with it - is it because it gets ahead of my swing too easily. I must prefer a firmer flex ...... difference in flex here?
Hey, the only way to know what differences there are is to go and test out the clubs. There are differences based on the torque, weight (g), and design of the driver head, and what kind of swing you have (speed, strength, or both).
I'm trying to agree with you mark, but when you look at the difference the club makes to performance, I think the shaft makes a significant contribution (when you use a robot so strike/swing conditions is controlled) For example the difference in spin between your sldr and other drivers you have tested was only about 200rpm (similar to the difference in spin that shafts can give you) so shouldn't we treat the shaft option the same we treat the decision of what driver you buy?
Only time I've had a shaft I felt I couldn't hit good shots with was a TM R11s 3 wood with Stiff Motore Speedster shaft. I have no idea why but that thing felt like a buggy whip and I hit it all over the place. I bought an older TM burner #3 wood with a R flex which I was planning on re-shafting. Well I hit that club better than any 3 wood I've ever had.
I knew shaft flexs made little sense from manufacturer to manufacturer, so I guess it does make sense that it's much more about feel than what silly letter they put a shaft. BTW, I have also always felt that a lot of guys want that S or X on there for their ego. I know I did.
Hmmmm, good video. i usually buy stiff shafts in my drivers, but I guess I shouldn't be too concerned if the only available shaft is a regular if I buy a new driver, as long as the weight and feel is right.
my common shot with the stiff shaft in my ping rapture 3w 2014 is a slight fade. Why is it when I swap the shaft with the stiff shaft from my i25 3w my shot shape dramatically changes to a massive over drawing shot?
Both shafts are pings stock shafts. Both are almost identical in length. Both look to launch at different heights. This isn't the odd shot here and there. More 20 balls with one go right. 20 with the other go left.
Ping say with their new shaft options that a heavier shaft should promote a fade bias shot over a lighter shaft which would promote more of a draw.
So although you say shaft flex doesn't matter, does having the right shaft combination in a club matter? Try it.try sticking a g25, g30, i25 stiff shaft in the same head and see what happens(without manipulating the figures and upsetting the shaftoids). It would be interesting to see for a custom fit angle.
Cheers Mark, loving the jovial attitude in the vids as normal. P.s you look like my uncle...poor bloke.
Phill
very interesting video, i also think the psychological factor comes into play as well, people may feel as buzza said that the x shaft would spin less, but some people also feel that if the shaft flex is stiffer they can hit it harder which in turn will increase the spin rate. different shafts will produce different results due to the kick points in the shaft and where it is located in shaft and i feel this is what is so important in the shaft.
how will kick point affect the data plz.
Mark Crossfield sorry mark haven't really made my comment clear, what I meant is for when people get fitted the kick point is what they should look at for different results I.e launch angle not the shaft flex to change their ball flight for what they what to see off the face
My SLDR fitter said the TM Fuji 7.3X produced significantly better results (lower launch and spin) than any of the other 10 shafts I tried with the same head. I had zero preference going into the fitting and went with what was recommended based on GC2 data.
What would happen if Buzza was using a regular flex shaft? I would have assumed he would get a bit hooky, but now I am not sure! Very interesting video.
It seems like the only data involved in shaft fitting is strike consistency. This aligns with the reason that that faster swingers prefer a stiffer flex-less manipulation needed for center strikes.
Shaft flex is a hot topic within my playing circle. I play S flex on Driver and 3 Wood and Regular Flex on my irons Gap - 3 iron. Wedges are stiff. Whatever works, I used to always think there was a better shaft out there... Maybe there is but it gets expensive pretty quick.
I had pretty darn wimpy shafts that messes up my timing, I tried to blame myself but swapping shafts fixed the problem
Great video, awesome comments despite much controversy. It just makes me think even more about history.s great golf legends playing incredible shots without any computers, launch monitors, high speed cameras, shaft splining, phd.s in physics, cavity backs, weight ports, adjust-ability, etc. just wood, leather, a chisel, and hot lead
Does your thinking on this topic extend further down the stiffness scale? In other words, would you expect that a player who likes the "feel" of a senior- or even "ladies"-flex shaft should produce essentially the same results as when using a regular- or stiff-flex shaft?
In my personal experience, I can hit stiffer shafted clubs than I typically use, but I have to increase my swing speed/swing "harder/faster" than I usually do to produce similar results (so I don't use them because I don't want to change my preferred rhythm and swing speed.)
One more log on the fire: when we fit for shafts, we paid particular attention to speed of transition at top, amount of load descending, and compression at strike (thank you Mizuno for their shaft fitting system!). My guess is languid transition players like Fred Couples could make most shafts work, while the aggressive, over the top yanker needs less torque and flex to find the ball with the face
goomy worms so the purpose of fitting would be?
goomy worms did make point about Couples level players being able to compensate more than mere mortals, but the demise of careers when great pros chased $s to change equipment (Price, Pavin spring to mind) refute your argument. And would bet that Box set wouldn't last a round in Rory's hands. The well known Tiger stories about being able to walk down a line of clubs, picking out ones that were a gram off speak to the elite players needing confidence that all specs are optimized and as expected. Remember pros margins are much more finite than ours due to condition of play and swing speed. Proof, their challenges in team play adapting to a different ball
I like the info from this video. The last bit about callaway robot vs human feel is very important!
Also shaft weight is a big concern with feel for a golfer.
Thanks
Correctly fitted driver shaft would surely result in better shot dispersion, which would equal lower scores and happy days.. Better shot control is worth much more than the 1% difference between stiff and xtra stiff you mentioned.. Good vid, thanks.
Thanks Mark and Steve.I agree flex really equates to feel more than anything.
I would have guessed that the x would have launched lower/spun less etc, I recently switched from regular flex to stiff flex in my irons and have noticed a lower flight and some increased distance. How much of this is to do with the shaft itself, or me swinging differently in response to how they feel, I have no idea. Either way I'm not going to complain :) Love the videos.
Excellent facts Mark & Buzzman, Getting used to a club n shaft FEEL & CONFIDENCE is what works best for me. I pick TP stock stiff shafts Stage2 RBZ. You guys have SLDR how many extra yards have you gained? Mark is sooooo consistent Buzzman sooooooo long.... More course videos just love them.. Thanks.
The shaftoids on GolfWRX spend a fortune on shafts & won't like this.lol
haha great comment.
Mark Crossfield LOL...because he agrees..LOL, not so great if you disagree though...
#taptap
He's not saying shafts don't matter, just that flex doesn't matter as much. I would like to see a disclaimer in this video explaining that shaft profile differences matter tremendously.
ny head was going to explode on golf WRX of people talking about how a shaft plays that theyve never tried
I would be interested in seeing a test between a senior flex shaft and a stiff shaft with different swing speeds. I'm aware of that feel makes the biggest difference, but is it always the case? Will a senior flex help someone with a slower swing speed like the manufacturers say, or is it just feel?
search shaft flex and see more test already posted ages ago
I play a stiff G30 driver, dispersion is tighter by lots. distance is samey as reg and swing speed is 90mph.
not exactly really fast but my swing tempo is fairly quick but stability, feel is way better.
weird but true
There is an easy way to determine this. All manufacturers and the USGA have machines that will hit balls at whatever club speed and angle of attack you want. Hold the ball and angle of attack constant and measure distances at various club head speeds
I just bought myself the Cobra Bio Cell Plus driver with an x-stiff shaft. If I hit a normal RBZ Stage 2 driver with the standard stiff shaft that it comes with, I get a clubhead speed of 125mph and shots tht go all over the place. With this new shaft (bloody expensive one), it comes out straighter almost every time. I hit more fairways with it. If you don't need an x-stiff shaft (apparently your clubhead speeds needs to be a minimum of 110mph to need one), then of course it's not going to make much difference.
As an ex Technical representative for Callaway Golf who staged the fitting days I can confirm Mark is correct. Shaft makes VERY LITTLE difference to actual performance. Feel is the key in weight, flex, feeling etc and he is absolutely right that if people didn't know what shaft they were using they would often just pick the standard shaft that the club has fitted.
tatchy1001
The more flex I have on my club, the more I slice to the right. My dad just bought me a 7 iron stuff shaft and told me to try it without telling me it was a stiff shaft. I'm a very new golfer and didn't know anything about the different shafts. We went to the driving range and I was hitting the ball straight and far, 99% of the time with that 7 iron. I couldn't believe it. It was a green dot Zing . I slice all the time with regular flex clubs and it made golf in enjoyable. Now that I hit it straight with stiff shafts, I am more confident playing and don't have to keep overthinking what I'm doing wrong. Why is the stiff shaft so much better for me?
Mark Mac Is everything else exactly the same ie clubhead, length, lie, grip size etc because if not I would suggest the main improvement may be down to the change in club rather thank just a stiffer shaft
Mark I love your videos especially the on course ones.
Love to see you test an aftermarket shaft vs the stock "made for" shafts.
Many tales around of stock shafts being junk and even marked wrongly for flex.
I agree, I was what they consider between stiff and X. I switched to X and i feel as if anything I just have more confidence with how the X "feels" compared to the S. I think I mentally just gave myself an advantage switching to the X.
I play x100s in my mp4s....and i use an 83 gram regular shaft in my driver. I dont know what my swing speed is but i hit 7 irons 180. Driver goes 280-300. Im a big believer in weight of the club matters more than the flex level. I think people have it backwards. I initially chose the x100s in irons because i like the weight of the club in my hands and felt more controllable. After reading on golfwrx, ive learned that there is no industry standards for shaft flexes. Some companies reg are stiffer than stiff, some stiff are stiffer than x stiff....that tells me that these single letter labels on shafts mean nothing.
I feel the same way as you
Xies tour issue
don't want to be a troll, but did you even watch the entire video and understand what point he is trying to make? the modern shaft is so good now that it has very little performance benefits for a golfer, but feel is everything. even all the major oems have proven that. take a robot swinging it at x mile, and put any shaft on and the numbers are indiscernible. take a robot and change the head, even moving a few grams of weight, and you will get very different numbers. the head is king. i find it totally ridiculous when people say i hit this shaft 10-15 yards further than my softer shaft. No its not the shaft, it is you. if you would say that shaft just makes me feel more confident and i don't have to worry about it going left thus i can free up my mind and swing for the fences thus i get more ball speed then i would say right on! you find the right shaft for your mind, but not your swing. stop drinking the koolaid and start playing golf!
also tour issue shafts are mass produced! wtf are you talking about, they don't make special tour issue shafts they just take a whole bunch of regular shafts and sort them out and match them up with other shafts in the set.
Mitch Y didnt read
***** didnt read
im a person who used a senior flex shaft, which was about 40 mph to slow for me (i swing 110) and i can definitely say it matters
Mark,
A couple of things. First of all, I want to agree with you on your verdict on this test, but only for this specific test. To note, you did not show his swing speed data. Based on an average ball speed of 168 and assuming a smash factor of 1.45 or so, I am assuming that his swing speed is somewhere between 112 and 115 mph. If I'm right, he is definitely a "tweener" when it comes to choosing between a stiff and x-stiff flex. Seeing as you're using a stiff and x-stiff flex of the same model, I can see why there wouldn't be a significant variance in the results, besides launch angle. However, on subsequent videos it would be helpful if you could gather data on at least 30 shots for each club to allow for the data to be significant.. I agree with a couple of the commenters below that choosing the right shaft for your swing is important for consistent contact. I would be interested to see the data if you used a regular flex vs. a x-stiff flex for the same model. Similarly, it would be interesting to see an example for a player who swings 100 mph or less to test between a regular flex and a x-still flex of the same model.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that when you use a test for a "tweener," and you proclaim in the video that "the stiffness of the shaft doesn't matter," it can be very misleading to your audience. If that was the case, a senior who drives the ball all of 150 yards off the tee would be able to use a x-flex shaft and play just as good golf as when they would using a regular flex.
For everyone, it's important to know that the golf swing and your progression to become a better golfer is way to complex to generalize. There are too many products out there with varying specs, human biases, as well as gradual improvement/worsening techniques and physical fitness levels over a lifetime that it is very unlikely that a 30 minute club fitting session will be the answer to your optimal specifications. For avid golfers who want to see improvement, it is important to always keep and open mind and try new things as your game changes to truly find what is perfect for you. Otherwise, if your equipment is fit close enough to what is optimal, it's important to just forget about it and concentrate on hitting golf shots at specific targets.
I think it all comes down to strike that's the most important factor higher on the face less spin lower on the face more spin (gear effect ?) have tried loads of shafts and ball flight is all always similar it all comes down to feel but when I swing on plane there is a big difference in my ball flight as I am changing my launch conditions for the better. It's all about feel
true.
Mark, I think the x IS more stable by the data, it was a hair straighter,... small differences add up to strokes.. Correct me if im wrong.
very interesting. my personal issue with the shaft is actually the lenght, i have a std covert driver which "feels" extremely uncomfortable... but all drivers are stock on almost the same lenght... i can handle the 3wood well and it feels great... i dont have a pro shop near to fit me with a shorter shaft :( my sorrow continues... great video tho!
Mark.... I was always told that a more whippy shaft i.e. Reg instead of Stiff would incourage a hook. The principle being that the Reg shaft would be lagging more so your hands would start to close the face a fraction sooner. I have been a low single figure h/c for over 30 years. Still struggling with your findings.
these are not my findings I have just presented an idea. RnA and many club manufacturers know this.
spanker41 You are correct, but it also depends on how much you're past the recommended club-head or ball speed. Mark Crossfield is in the gray area between XS and S shaft, but if he compared XS to R at his club-head speed he would hit the ball much higher and more left with R. You can already see a lower launch angle and more right bias with the XS in this video (~1.5 degrees, 3 yards), and this difference is proportional to club-head speed.
The more flex I have on my club, the more I slice to the right. My dad just bought me a 7 iron stuff shaft and told me to try it without telling me it was a stiff shaft. I'm a very new golfer and didn't know anything about the different shafts. We went to the driving range and I was hitting the ball straight and far, 99% of the time with that 7 iron. I couldn't believe it. It was a green dot Zing . I slice all the time with regular flex clubs and it made golf in enjoyable. Now that I hit it straight with stiff shafts, I am more confident playing and don't have to keep overthinking what I'm doing wrong. Why is the stiff shaft so much better for me?
Mark Mac Actually, a stiff shaft creates a fade when compared to a regular shaft. However the 'green dot' from ping has a 2.5degree upright lie, which encourages a more outside takeaway and therefore reduces the chance of coming 'over the top' (which causes a ball to slice). The Zing line also has average to more-than-average offset, which helps to reduce a slice (game improvement irons often have higher offset).
Sean H Do you know any other better companies that produce a better stiff shaft than Zing? I love hitting the ball straight with the Zing stiff shaft. The regular flex slices on me every single time, no matter what I do.
I am a beginner , playing again after a 30 year break. I bought a S/H set of Greg Norman shark clubs that hardly have a mark on them. The driver is steel shaft 10.5º 'deep bore' oversize . ( seems regular size to me ie: smaller than 460cc) . I dont like it after using the Ping.
I also have a Ping2 10º with a stiff shaft Aldila NVS 65S graphite shaft. I drive consistently 175-200 with the odd burst over that.
My golf tutor suggested that I should consider a shaft with more flex to help cure my slice. However I feel quite comfortable with this driver, esp compared with the GN driver. Is this likely to cure the slice or should I work more on a combination of grip and swing. I dont slice very time ,maybe 50% of tee shots, and the degree of slice seems fairly consistent and starts from about half way point of the drive. Its too easy to spend limited dollars chasing gadget cures rather than fixing the basic issues
You have me thinking now.... I was (am) about to go and get fitted in a proper fitting place (€100 for fitting). Then they build the clubs which cost a fair bit more than off the rack in the Super Stores! Wondering now am I wasting my time given that when the robot hits with any shaft they all react the same????
Not sure about spin, etc. but I would expect a regular shaft to leave a slightly more open club head.
does it have no effect on torsion? im surprised to see the whip not adding yards, but its possible both shafts are too strong for his swing? why not include a regular to see if it really matters. just thinking out loud.
What are the kick points on the shafts tested? that i think would affect ball flight more than just simple shaft flex.
What if you went from Stiff to Regular and then from Regular to Senior? How would that change the numbers? It feels like when you measure the difference between X and S, and there's no difference, you're not really getting relevant data. I've hit a senior flex shaft with a driver and the flight is massively different visually to the same drive with a stiff shaft. In this argument there's also the conspirasy of stock S and X being almost entirely the same shaft. Since stock shafts are generally the cheapest versions of the actual shafts. And since people who think they need an X but go for stock are generally not good enough to tell the difference.
I think it would be interesting to see what happens to the numbers when you go noticeably stiffer or noticeably softer to your alotted stiffness.
done vids on this search shaft flex on my channel
I admit I love s300...they are amazing but xflex probably go further to (if you hit them that hard)its basicly if you can get the xflex to bend then the club does all the rest
The video test is flawed imo. Stiff and x flex are too close to see any major difference. One thing I did notice was the strike grouping on the X flex was better and tighter. This says the shaft that's stiffer and heavier has lower torque. So depending on how much transition force is applied to the shaft, this can have an effect on feel. The swing happens so fast that only your subconscious mind can feel things like the head rotating more using the more flexible option. An example of this is when you see a player doing funny things with their hands trying to save the swing, if the club face is coming into impact too closed. So torque is a very important factor and I believe you showed that in your video Mark.
i strike the ball out of the center of the club face and i have a stiff flex shaft in my SLDR except my delivery of the club head is open, is that because of the lag i create?
My thoughts, after only watching 4.08 of the video! Spin, same order of magnitude. X less distance, and lower flight/launch.
Does a stiffer shaft flex make it easier to control the ball flight, i.e. high draw, low fade, etc? Is that why the pros use non-stock, tipped, xx stiff shafts?
Mark, do you really believe that even at high speeds (around 120 mph for driver ... on the "good" ones, according to Full Swing Golf w/ Ion 2 system) there is no difference in shaft?
It's hard to compare flexes with different manufactures since a s-flex from one might qualify as an x-flex for another. It would be nice if other shaft manufactures did what Miyazaki does with their flex code so that it is easy to see how one shaft relates to another in terms of launch conditions and overall shaft stiffness.
What about irons Mark? I currently have Dynamic Gold XP S300, Mizuno fitting recommends Project 5.5 - 6.0 and one inch over standard, numbers not as good on heavier shafts for me on about a 91 mph 6 iron swing. Loving the Vlogs, Buzzer looks like he is channelling me sometimes.
Do a senior flex vs. s or x. That data may be a bit more different. But maybe you have done it before I don't know.
What about different kick points of shafts? Should they relate to type of swing (hard agressive, or smoothe) to maximise impact conditions ?
Hi Mark, very good video. However, all the fittings I have done in the US, they always try to fit me into some premium shafts, I asked all of them "can I try stock shaft". Their standard respond were always "these were garbage". I did 3 different fittings at 3 different stores "not the big box store". What do you think about that.
I'm a relatively new player, should I use a flex shaft? Thanks and great video as always.
I'm surprised you didn't have him tee the ball a little higher with the stiffer shaft.
I figured. Makes sense that the shaft flex virtually has no benefit one over the other. Thanks Mark!
It does make a difference...a lot but one thing is for sure...some times even if you don't got xstiff you can have such a good time to
people are crazy thinking the shaft is magical!! With that said I just bought a new driver and made sure it was stiff and not regular but that is only because of the FEEL I feel as if I'm too strong for the regular flex so I like stiff, but at the end of the day I know I can hit a great shot or a terrible shot with any shaft.
good comment
I am intrigued by your Ping comment (stiffer heavier shaft created less dispersion). Instead of comparing flex, how about same flex different weighted shafts?? I would be interested to see that result. Great vid.
thanks and yes weight would be a good video. Remember to subscribe if you don't already
I dont doubt any of this, but here is my question.....stock shafts are known to be inconsistent, and this, combined simply with the difference in shaft weights could be the explanation for these results....PLEASE do the same test with different flexes of a PREMIUM, UPGRADE shaft.....
Hi Mark! i would like to see what happens if you hit 3 balls with a miss hit on the toe?
How would the side spin numbers compare? Is the X holding up better or not?
Thx for your answer.