MSE complications and risks listed Donate: www.paypal.com/biz/fund?id=UA... My website: jawhacks.com Instagram: / ronaldead What is MSE? • How MSE Works
That’s for the run down, I took quite a few notes down so I have some questions to ask my Ortho and my Surgeon. Very much appreciate your content my guy🤝
Two thoughts on asymmetry: 1) bone density tests of the skull prior to MSE and 2) which side does a person lay their head on when they sleep. First, perhaps differential bone densities could cause it. Second, sleep is about 1/3 of our day, so it makes sense that if you're laying on one side more than the other when you sleep it could cause asymmetry. That would also explain differential forward expansion given the biophysical dynamics of muscles used to stay the head in any given direction even while sleeping.
That honestly made alot of sense . Because humans tend to have one side bigger than the other. Whether it be right or left . And that can explain the expansion favoring the bigger side . I also think working out while expanding would aid in symmetrical expansion seeing as how the mouth is connected to the body.
Hi Ron- Thank you so much for being such a great patient advocate for those of us who want to make informed decisions about this treatment. Maybe an updated video to include the really rare side effects the patient population is starting to see- vision changes, vertigo, nausea, strabismus, cranial twist. Sometimes patients see changes to the sphenoid bones that can cause these things. These are super rare, but they're proving difficult to treat. Just like a hip replacement can rarely cause nerve damage or paralysis, practitioners should be upfront about the more serious side effects that we're starting to see. Thank you for doing all that you do for us!
I would think a less aggressive option to the “dome procedure” would be to just have the palatal suture surgically split, and leaving the zygoma sutures alone. This should increase the odds of the palate splitting AND allow mid-face to widen. What do you think? Maybe I should quickly coin a term before someone else does! “TJam Technique”
Im not expert in facial structure or anything related to medicine, i studied mech eng though. Although my understanding of MSE is superficial, it seems to me that asymmetric expansion is more of a feature of the device than a side effect, since the expansion will follow the path of least resistance and your bones are not exactly equal at each side. Maybe even sleeping on the side is enough to tilt the balance. Maybe some sort of anchor point, like a face mask, allows you to correct asymmetries in the process, although it seems hard to achieve a perfect balance. Is there data on all this issues?
So I know that your situation was atypical due to your prior orthodontic work (AGGA and everything), but for someone hoping to get MSE and MSDO and then realign the teeth, how long would this entire process take? You mentioned the importance of taking it slow with the MSE so what would that make the timeline look like? Thanks again for the great videos.
Just out of curiosity; did you sleep on your right as a preference? I also wonder if you could create an X cross bar to obviously create a split but could also push one side more forward if required. Also creating more anchor points to reduce issue of drag etc.
Hi Ronald! Greetings from Spain. You inspired me to take this procedure aiming to solve/get better on my sleep apnea problems. I'm a 28 years old male. 7 days ago I had installed the MSE device and cortipunctures drilled, however, 28 turns and still, the suture has not split. Tomorrow I will have a consultation with my dentist in order to take further procedures to split the suture, I guess we will try to weaken it. Great channel! Cheers
UPDATE: At the end, they finally split the suture by doing a small central osteotomy and adding two more screws wired strategically to the MSE. 30 turns.
David Tovar de la Lama. Congratulations on the split! May I ask, have you noticed any improved quality in your breathing straight away? How are you dealing with your lower arch to match? Thanks in advance.
@@theboyjames3065 Hi Ricky. As Ronald commented about his case, I have also a stubborn side, however it is not that pronounced and from a orthodontic side it can be corrected. Tongue position is improved, now I can achieve suction vacuum for mewing easily which before was completely impossible. Nasal volume has changed a lot, now I almost don't find any airway resistance in intensive exercise.
Ey, David, first Spanish person I see using this procedure. Not all dentist know very well here. Can I ask you where are you having the treatment? Madrid? Barcelona? do you have a MSE with parallel suture¿ or MArpe with V suture¿ I had mine a month ago and It broke after 15days, (Apparently a failure of the instrument settling) so now I am getting a new one in a couple of weeks. I also have braces together with the Marpe and I am not totally sure if this is something good at all. My dentist says one thing is the bone and other the teeth.. I would love to know more about how your treatment goes. I am 32 and I didnt have to use Cortipuncture to see the diastema. cheers.
@@martalopez4469 Hi Marta, I took my treatment in Madrid, Ramón Mompell is my doctor. My split was parallel (surgically assisted, only central osteotomy) and now I am in bone consolidation phase. I will start with braces in two weeks and the MSE device will remain on my palate for probably 7-8 months. The expansion was great and I got somewhere between 10-12 mm of real expansion. I definitely don't regret going through this procedure. Good luck with your treatment!
There really doesn’t seem to be a need to make the hole in a “cortical puncture” bigger...by “fanning them out” as you call it. You really just need to separate the left and the right side of the palate... A half a millimeter split would do it. It doesn’t NEED to be larger. Seems like one would just have to separate the two sides from each other. Hell, you could probably look at it down to the cellular level, and just make sure there’s no bone cells touching each other. You could probably have the split be so narrow it’s several Ångströms wide, as long as the two sides don’t touch each other at any point. Then you would immediately need to start force to create a gap that increases larger than the body can repair it
Jesus... bone drag sounds fucking terrifying. And, is there a website or something to check if I can do any of these precedures in my city/country? If not that's cool, I'll make some calls
I just have two questions. 1. I’m terrified of it not splitting the suture what do I do it if it doesn’t? Is there any way to ensure it does split? And 2. I had to get a tooth removed from an accident a year ago one of my bottom left back molars so it’s not visible but do you recommend me getting a tooth implant to correct that before I apply MSE ? Will MSE effect the my bottom row of teeth or only it top teeth where my palate is ?
SP FromNY914 thank you for the response. I can’t seem to find any providers for MSE near where I live. Are there any MSE providers in the west or the south ?
Thanks Ronald for another video. I tried MSE, the Won Moon Appliance, having it removed June 12, 2020 after three weeks. I am 36, male. Males do not have a 100% success rate in opening up the suture, and I was warned it is "hit or miss" with males beyond puberty. I was a failure due to screw drag of the anterior right screw and some of posterior right screw that caused the appliance to drag along the palate and the support arm on the right side to dig into soft tissue, causing pain. Teeth 12, 13, and 14 appear to have tipped, whereby the end of the teeth are pointing more inward and presumably the roots more outward. This is a slight negative outcome to the bite and smile. I think the tipping, unconfirmed yet by my Ortho, is due to the right side putting enormous force onto the right upper palate the last 36 hours with the base of the appliance near the anterior right screw cutting into soft tissue as well as the support arm causing tissue impingement. I was at 47 turns for 12 hours prior to removal and had to medicate on pain killers. Between May 22 and May 30th, I got to 42 turns and had to turn back 5x per day the next week, at the direction of my Ortho, since the anterior right screw dragged and was cutting into tissue. I visited the Ortho two weeks after install after turning back for about a week at a rate of 5x a day, for week 2, and we decided to try expanding again for another week at a rate of 4x per day. The last week I went from a starting point of 10 turns to a max of 47 turns, experiencing screw drag again. To summarize, I expanded the appliance the first week, contracted the appliance the 2nd week, and expanded the appliance the third week. Screw drag the 1st week and more drag the 3rd week. No skeletal expansion happened, just screw drag and force build-up. The negative consequences of my case are the slight tipping of teeth 12, 13, and 14. Further, teeth 2 and 15, the ones where the arms attach, partially broke when removing the anchoring arms. By partially broke, I mean enamel ripped off the surface of the teeth, causing unsmooth and more sensitive teeth. Also, while the appliance was installed and I was at max turns, teeth 2 and 15, especially 15 (right side) felt pushed out away from center. That makes sense if force on the right side was being transferred to the arm / tooth due to screw drag of anterior right screw. But with the appliance out, I do not notice tooth 15 being pushed outward. Appliance was removed with the turns at 47. Perhaps I’ll document in more detail with photos at some point for others. The reason I attempted MSE expansion was for improving nasal patency. I thought I would try the MSE before DOME + MSE. I did not have cortipuncture when the MSE was installed like you had with Dr. Newaz. Dr. Ting does the cortipuncture, I've read, in all MSE installs, but my Ortho prefers no puncture on first attempt. If failure on first attempt, then she is more open to corticopuncture, although I think she calls it bicorticopuncture. I suppose had I requested the puncture initially, we would have done it, but we tried the conservative approach first. MSE is more conservative than MSE with bi-cortical puncture, which is more conservative than DOME + MSE. Since I do not have sleep apnea per lab testing, we decided I could forego DOME + MSE and try MSE alone as a conservative first step, although I had the option of going straight into DOME + MSE. The modified LeFort 1 Osteotomy performed for DOME takes time to become comfortable accepting. I have had septoplasty and turbinatoplasty over a decade ago, and DOME seems more intense to me than those procedures. Hence, I am trying more "conservative" approach first, although there are trade-offs people must consider. You mentioned DOME overcomes some of the risks of MSE alone. Yes, and I weighed those benefits of DOME against the risk of MSE alone and decided for MSE alone for first attempt. I told myself ahead of time, I would most likely be happier in the end to try MSE and fail than to not try it at all, albeit there is a cost of a few thousand dollars. But I sure was hoping for a split and expansion. Now I am healing for a few weeks and taking time to decide upon next steps, if any, although I could use Invisalign to fix the tipping created by trying MSE and to fix the gaps between each side of teeth 2 and 15, which are result of wearing spacers for ten days prior to MSE install, which I wore twice since first install was cancelled due to SARS-CoV2. I suppose, the other risk of failure is a financial risk - you do have to pay for the appliance even if it fails to achieve a split.
Hey I’m 22 and I did MSE with cortipuncture and failed to get split. Right now I am undoing turns to relapse cause I will do the surgery for MSE next week Friday. I feel you on the pain when you undo turns I didn’t know better and undid 28 turns in one day and it caused pain in molars . So I stopped undoing turns for 5 days will resume tommorrow at a rate of 6x reverse turns per day. I’ll show you all my progress soon. So you can see what results comes from SMARPE.
@@operationleyenda6976 Hi Eric. Thanks for sharing. Hearing MSE with cortipuncture failed to achieve a split provides support for what my Ortho explained to me, which is the literature does not clearly indicate that cortipuncture helps to achieve a split. At least that is what I think was stated. Thus, we tried MSE without cortipunture, and I have the option of trying again with cortipunture (more financial cost), but there is not much evidence on whether a second attempt with cortipunture will provide a split. The push back to provide to providers who use cortipuncture from the start is how do we know it is needed if we do not try first without it? But a rebuttal may be the risk of cortipuncture are low so why not give it a try in case it does help? I am making that argument up to facilitate discussion. Too bad there is insufficient literature from past well documented trials to better guide the decision on cortipuncture. May I ask, is your provider located in the U.S.? Is there any difference between the modified LeFort 1 osteotomy performed for DOME and the cuts performed for SMARPE? It looks like SMARPE involves a vertical osteotomy in the maxillary midline in addition to a Le Fort 1 osteotomy. Seems DOME and SMARPE are same cuts, a modified Le Fort 1 osteotomy. These differ from SARPE, which I think I had once read may involve pterygoid plate fracture, which is to be avoided.
This is awful for you! MSE has these issues. I recently learned about the power expander by Dr Juan carlos Perez Varela. It doesn’t use bands on the teeth so no force on them. There is Metal there for placement but is then removed. Also they design it with you CBCT and stl file so it is custom made. Not sure if it will work for men but it seems it is much more powerful and less screw drag. Check it out on Instagram. #powerexpanderperezvarela
Hey Ron! Love your content bro! I have this question: My maloclussion is fine (I had braces when i was a teen), but both my upper and lower jaw are very narrow, do you think that I can expand both of my jaws simultaneously so that they can meet again after MSE and SFOT? Thank you! Love from Colombia
Hi jaw hacks. But can the mse take risks on long terms or in a long time, because os slipping the sucture? Like any inner problem. And another question, i have mild class 3 maloclusion, and will correct it witg mse, but my upper lip is much slim than the bottom one, i think because of type 3, is any way to correct the upper lip?
I wish I had done MSE instead of DNA appliance. I signed on to do the DNA before you released these videos. I'm just going slow with it to prevent tooth tipping.
Hi anyone can help me with an answer i had my upper palate expander 2.5 weeks ago I'm 26 y.o my orthodontist turned it 2 every day it's obvious that the expander now got max of turns i monitored with photos is see no progress no expansion no gap nothing my orthodontist said nothing?
Hi Ron, what about the theory/concern that when after the suture is split and it heals over with bone, it does just that and heals over with BONE with no fibrous tissue/collagen that sutures are made of? So if it's just bone, it would bone SOLID and locked from then on. You mentioned in another video you had a scan done and it had completely healed over with bone to a point that it was not ever noticeable it was even split in the first place. I haven't looked into it but is there a way to scan to see sutures, maybe MRI as it's soft tissue?
Late reply and I'm not ronald ead but I think Won Moon said the sutures interlock again so you can split it again. I don't think it just to turns into one solid bone.
@@soldatnerd Would love to see someone who has looked into this deeper with scans etc... kinda weird that no one has (to my knowledge and I've asked a lot of people/practitioners)
Won moon has a lecture on pitfalls and MSE. Look for his 40-50 m lecture on TH-cam. I think he said lack of bone density (commenter who said k2, exercise), or screws not deep enough. I could be wrong tho
I feel like the back of jaw/my molars are expanding with MSE but the rest isn’t expanding at the same rate. Maybe my imagination. Has anyone else had this experience?
The fact that MSE didn't drag into your bones makes me think you have pretty thick bone structure. Do you think this could be a factor as to how modest your results with mewing were?
Update ..2yrs forward. 12/13/22 MSE/ MARPE installed with 10 cortipunctures. Im a 50 yr old male. Was told to go slow on the turns. So far, so good. Not painful. Price $6500 with damon braces.
Same, I wonder if it's connected to diet, did you eat a lot of meat growing up? That was mostly what I ate as a kid so despite being a mouth breather with a narrow palate I have pretty good cheekbones and a normal mandible. And what's the dome procedure?
@@NyanHomeschoolGirl17 my diet is high in dairy. So I consume a lot of calcium and have always maintained a regular diet of vitamin d3 and calcium supplements on top of that. That really encourages a lot of bone growth at a young age. He describes the dome procedure in this very video but goes further in detail in his video "How MSE Works"
Nathanael Petucci Interesting, I drank A LOT of milk as a kid as well as somewhat frequent cheese indulgences, maybe that does have an impact on development not being as bad. Have you already attempted regular nonsurgical palate expansion? I know Ronald did and it didn't work for him.
@@NyanHomeschoolGirl17 I'm 18 and while my bite isn't ideal, I can work with it to mew. So that's what I'm doing with the hope of raising my maxilla. Perhaps once I get a job and money will I enquire into bone-borne expansion of my upper pallet and SFOT for the lower.
Ron its not about how hard your bone was. Research cranial torsions. Your left side is more externally rotated as demonstrated from the wider left side of your face.
What should we do if we do see unilateral expansion or asymmetries?
That’s for the run down, I took quite a few notes down so I have some questions to ask my Ortho and my Surgeon. Very much appreciate your content my guy🤝
Two thoughts on asymmetry: 1) bone density tests of the skull prior to MSE and 2) which side does a person lay their head on when they sleep.
First, perhaps differential bone densities could cause it. Second, sleep is about 1/3 of our day, so it makes sense that if you're laying on one side more than the other when you sleep it could cause asymmetry. That would also explain differential forward expansion given the biophysical dynamics of muscles used to stay the head in any given direction even while sleeping.
That honestly made alot of sense . Because humans tend to have one side bigger than the other. Whether it be right or left . And that can explain the expansion favoring the bigger side . I also think working out while expanding would aid in symmetrical expansion seeing as how the mouth is connected to the body.
Hi Ron- Thank you so much for being such a great patient advocate for those of us who want to make informed decisions about this treatment. Maybe an updated video to include the really rare side effects the patient population is starting to see- vision changes, vertigo, nausea, strabismus, cranial twist. Sometimes patients see changes to the sphenoid bones that can cause these things.
These are super rare, but they're proving difficult to treat. Just like a hip replacement can rarely cause nerve damage or paralysis, practitioners should be upfront about the more serious side effects that we're starting to see. Thank you for doing all that you do for us!
I would think a less aggressive option to the “dome procedure” would be to just have the palatal suture surgically split, and leaving the zygoma sutures alone. This should increase the odds of the palate splitting AND allow mid-face to widen. What do you think?
Maybe I should quickly coin a term before someone else does! “TJam Technique”
Im not expert in facial structure or anything related to medicine, i studied mech eng though. Although my understanding of MSE is superficial, it seems to me that asymmetric expansion is more of a feature of the device than a side effect, since the expansion will follow the path of least resistance and your bones are not exactly equal at each side. Maybe even sleeping on the side is enough to tilt the balance.
Maybe some sort of anchor point, like a face mask, allows you to correct asymmetries in the process, although it seems hard to achieve a perfect balance. Is there data on all this issues?
So I know that your situation was atypical due to your prior orthodontic work (AGGA and everything), but for someone hoping to get MSE and MSDO and then realign the teeth, how long would this entire process take? You mentioned the importance of taking it slow with the MSE so what would that make the timeline look like? Thanks again for the great videos.
3 years I assume
Just out of curiosity; did you sleep on your right as a preference? I also wonder if you could create an X cross bar to obviously create a split but could also push one side more forward if required. Also creating more anchor points to reduce issue of drag etc.
Hi Ronald! Greetings from Spain. You inspired me to take this procedure aiming to solve/get better on my sleep apnea problems. I'm a 28 years old male. 7 days ago I had installed the MSE device and cortipunctures drilled, however, 28 turns and still, the suture has not split. Tomorrow I will have a consultation with my dentist in order to take further procedures to split the suture, I guess we will try to weaken it. Great channel! Cheers
UPDATE: At the end, they finally split the suture by doing a small central osteotomy and adding two more screws wired strategically to the MSE. 30 turns.
David Tovar de la Lama. Congratulations on the split! May I ask, have you noticed any improved quality in your breathing straight away? How are you dealing with your lower arch to match? Thanks in advance.
@@theboyjames3065 Hi Ricky. As Ronald commented about his case, I have also a stubborn side, however it is not that pronounced and from a orthodontic side it can be corrected. Tongue position is improved, now I can achieve suction vacuum for mewing easily which before was completely impossible. Nasal volume has changed a lot, now I almost don't find any airway resistance in intensive exercise.
Ey, David, first Spanish person I see using this procedure. Not all dentist know very well here. Can I ask you where are you having the treatment? Madrid? Barcelona? do you have a MSE with parallel suture¿ or MArpe with V suture¿ I had mine a month ago and It broke after 15days, (Apparently a failure of the instrument settling) so now I am getting a new one in a couple of weeks. I also have braces together with the Marpe and I am not totally sure if this is something good at all. My dentist says one thing is the bone and other the teeth.. I would love to know more about how your treatment goes. I am 32 and I didnt have to use Cortipuncture to see the diastema. cheers.
@@martalopez4469 Hi Marta, I took my treatment in Madrid, Ramón Mompell is my doctor. My split was parallel (surgically assisted, only central osteotomy) and now I am in bone consolidation phase. I will start with braces in two weeks and the MSE device will remain on my palate for probably 7-8 months. The expansion was great and I got somewhere between 10-12 mm of real expansion. I definitely don't regret going through this procedure. Good luck with your treatment!
Have you lost any feeling in your mouth/palate as a result of your treatment?
There really doesn’t seem to be a need to make the hole in a “cortical puncture” bigger...by “fanning them out” as you call it. You really just need to separate the left and the right side of the palate... A half a millimeter split would do it. It doesn’t NEED to be larger. Seems like one would just have to separate the two sides from each other. Hell, you could probably look at it down to the cellular level, and just make sure there’s no bone cells touching each other. You could probably have the split be so narrow it’s several Ångströms wide, as long as the two sides don’t touch each other at any point. Then you would immediately need to start force to create a gap that increases larger than the body can repair it
Another option is surgical assist with the MSE as opposed to cortical puncture!
Jesus... bone drag sounds fucking terrifying. And, is there a website or something to check if I can do any of these precedures in my city/country? If not that's cool, I'll make some calls
Great video!
So the Ting protocol calls for 1 turn per day even before the diastema for all age groups?
I just have two questions. 1. I’m terrified of it not splitting the suture what do I do it if it doesn’t? Is there any way to ensure it does split? And 2. I had to get a tooth removed from an accident a year ago one of my bottom left back molars so it’s not visible but do you recommend me getting a tooth implant to correct that before I apply MSE ? Will MSE effect the my bottom row of teeth or only it top teeth where my palate is ?
It will expand the lower to an extent but mostly the upper palate/jaw. You can combine mse with sfot to align your bite after expansion
SP FromNY914 thank you for the response. I can’t seem to find any providers for MSE near where I live. Are there any MSE providers in the west or the south ?
Do you do MSE or SFOT first?
Thanks Ronald for another video. I tried MSE, the Won Moon Appliance, having it removed June 12, 2020 after three weeks. I am 36, male. Males do not have a 100% success rate in opening up the suture, and I was warned it is "hit or miss" with males beyond puberty.
I was a failure due to screw drag of the anterior right screw and some of posterior right screw that caused the appliance to drag along the palate and the support arm on the right side to dig into soft tissue, causing pain. Teeth 12, 13, and 14 appear to have tipped, whereby the end of the teeth are pointing more inward and presumably the roots more outward. This is a slight negative outcome to the bite and smile. I think the tipping, unconfirmed yet by my Ortho, is due to the right side putting enormous force onto the right upper palate the last 36 hours with the base of the appliance near the anterior right screw cutting into soft tissue as well as the support arm causing tissue impingement.
I was at 47 turns for 12 hours prior to removal and had to medicate on pain killers. Between May 22 and May 30th, I got to 42 turns and had to turn back 5x per day the next week, at the direction of my Ortho, since the anterior right screw dragged and was cutting into tissue. I visited the Ortho two weeks after install after turning back for about a week at a rate of 5x a day, for week 2, and we decided to try expanding again for another week at a rate of 4x per day. The last week I went from a starting point of 10 turns to a max of 47 turns, experiencing screw drag again. To summarize, I expanded the appliance the first week, contracted the appliance the 2nd week, and expanded the appliance the third week. Screw drag the 1st week and more drag the 3rd week. No skeletal expansion happened, just screw drag and force build-up.
The negative consequences of my case are the slight tipping of teeth 12, 13, and 14. Further, teeth 2 and 15, the ones where the arms attach, partially broke when removing the anchoring arms. By partially broke, I mean enamel ripped off the surface of the teeth, causing unsmooth and more sensitive teeth. Also, while the appliance was installed and I was at max turns, teeth 2 and 15, especially 15 (right side) felt pushed out away from center. That makes sense if force on the right side was being transferred to the arm / tooth due to screw drag of anterior right screw. But with the appliance out, I do not notice tooth 15 being pushed outward. Appliance was removed with the turns at 47.
Perhaps I’ll document in more detail with photos at some point for others.
The reason I attempted MSE expansion was for improving nasal patency. I thought I would try the MSE before DOME + MSE. I did not have cortipuncture when the MSE was installed like you had with Dr. Newaz. Dr. Ting does the cortipuncture, I've read, in all MSE installs, but my Ortho prefers no puncture on first attempt. If failure on first attempt, then she is more open to corticopuncture, although I think she calls it bicorticopuncture. I suppose had I requested the puncture initially, we would have done it, but we tried the conservative approach first. MSE is more conservative than MSE with bi-cortical puncture, which is more conservative than DOME + MSE. Since I do not have sleep apnea per lab testing, we decided I could forego DOME + MSE and try MSE alone as a conservative first step, although I had the option of going straight into DOME + MSE.
The modified LeFort 1 Osteotomy performed for DOME takes time to become comfortable accepting. I have had septoplasty and turbinatoplasty over a decade ago, and DOME seems more intense to me than those procedures. Hence, I am trying more "conservative" approach first, although there are trade-offs people must consider. You mentioned DOME overcomes some of the risks of MSE alone. Yes, and I weighed those benefits of DOME against the risk of MSE alone and decided for MSE alone for first attempt. I told myself ahead of time, I would most likely be happier in the end to try MSE and fail than to not try it at all, albeit there is a cost of a few thousand dollars. But I sure was hoping for a split and expansion. Now I am healing for a few weeks and taking time to decide upon next steps, if any, although I could use Invisalign to fix the tipping created by trying MSE and to fix the gaps between each side of teeth 2 and 15, which are result of wearing spacers for ten days prior to MSE install, which I wore twice since first install was cancelled due to SARS-CoV2. I suppose, the other risk of failure is a financial risk - you do have to pay for the appliance even if it fails to achieve a split.
Hey I’m 22 and I did MSE with cortipuncture and failed to get split. Right now I am undoing turns to relapse cause I will do the surgery for MSE next week Friday. I feel you on the pain when you undo turns I didn’t know better and undid 28 turns in one day and it caused pain in molars . So I stopped undoing turns for 5 days will resume tommorrow at a rate of 6x reverse turns per day. I’ll show you all my progress soon. So you can see what results comes from SMARPE.
Also I’m not doing full Sarpe cuts only loosening midpalatal suture ,pytergiod and zygomatic suture to retain full benefits of MSE.
@@operationleyenda6976 Hi Eric. Thanks for sharing. Hearing MSE with cortipuncture failed to achieve a split provides support for what my Ortho explained to me, which is the literature does not clearly indicate that cortipuncture helps to achieve a split. At least that is what I think was stated. Thus, we tried MSE without cortipunture, and I have the option of trying again with cortipunture (more financial cost), but there is not much evidence on whether a second attempt with cortipunture will provide a split. The push back to provide to providers who use cortipuncture from the start is how do we know it is needed if we do not try first without it? But a rebuttal may be the risk of cortipuncture are low so why not give it a try in case it does help? I am making that argument up to facilitate discussion. Too bad there is insufficient literature from past well documented trials to better guide the decision on cortipuncture. May I ask, is your provider located in the U.S.? Is there any difference between the modified LeFort 1 osteotomy performed for DOME and the cuts performed for SMARPE? It looks like SMARPE involves a vertical osteotomy in the maxillary midline in addition to a Le Fort 1 osteotomy. Seems DOME and SMARPE are same cuts, a modified Le Fort 1 osteotomy. These differ from SARPE, which I think I had once read may involve pterygoid plate fracture, which is to be avoided.
Jamie Walters join.skype.com/invite/TdThujhcJJHu
This is awful for you! MSE has these issues. I recently learned about the power expander by Dr Juan carlos Perez Varela. It doesn’t use bands on the teeth so no force on them. There is Metal there for placement but is then removed. Also they design it with you CBCT and stl file so it is custom made. Not sure if it will work for men but it seems it is much more powerful and less screw drag. Check it out on Instagram. #powerexpanderperezvarela
If and how were you able to fix your unilateral expansion?
Hey Ron! Love your content bro! I have this question: My maloclussion is fine (I had braces when i was a teen), but both my upper and lower jaw are very narrow, do you think that I can expand both of my jaws simultaneously so that they can meet again after MSE and SFOT? Thank you! Love from Colombia
same
Good video man
How does the MSE create forward expansion? It would seem im would only be laterally
Hi jaw hacks. But can the mse take risks on long terms or in a long time, because os slipping the sucture? Like any inner problem.
And another question, i have mild class 3 maloclusion, and will correct it witg mse, but my upper lip is much slim than the bottom one, i think because of type 3, is any way to correct the upper lip?
I wish I had done MSE instead of DNA appliance. I signed on to do the DNA before you released these videos. I'm just going slow with it to prevent tooth tipping.
I think there is solid evidence w.r.t DNA for airway expansion.
how is it going? notice any changes?
asymmetries due to sleep patterns ?? sleep on side then expander cant move bed side of face ??
MSDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO next
I think that stubborn side exist in everyone.. I might have left side stubborn .. I feel My right side moving a bit sometime..
Hi anyone can help me with an answer i had my upper palate expander 2.5 weeks ago I'm 26 y.o my orthodontist turned it 2 every day it's obvious that the expander now got max of turns i monitored with photos is see no progress no expansion no gap nothing my orthodontist said nothing?
How would you correct the diastema?
How much does one turn equal in millimeters?
4:50-4:56 but how am I even supposed to tell if the expansion is happening asymmetrically? You can't tell with the naked eye, can you?
does MSE only widen or does it bring the maxilla forward giving more airway space and a better profile as well?
Did you find it
I have the same question
@@yotoeagle pretty sure it doesnt help much with the airways. Other treatment will be necessary to improve the airway
How are expanding the lower arch to match
Hi Ron, what about the theory/concern that when after the suture is split and it heals over with bone, it does just that and heals over with BONE with no fibrous tissue/collagen that sutures are made of? So if it's just bone, it would bone SOLID and locked from then on.
You mentioned in another video you had a scan done and it had completely healed over with bone to a point that it was not ever noticeable it was even split in the first place. I haven't looked into it but is there a way to scan to see sutures, maybe MRI as it's soft tissue?
Late reply and I'm not ronald ead but I think Won Moon said the sutures interlock again so you can split it again. I don't think it just to turns into one solid bone.
@@soldatnerd Would love to see someone who has looked into this deeper with scans etc... kinda weird that no one has (to my knowledge and I've asked a lot of people/practitioners)
3:55 but do you regret getting MSE even though this happened??
Have you herd of the DNA expander appliance. Are all those expanders just a scam?
Can MSE expand nose size?
Excuse me sir i need talk, is there any, how to widen the lower jaw bone at the age of 17 years? Widen & enlarge bones, not jaw muscles
Only options are Jaw Surgery and MSDO. Both are invasive.
Oh and MSDO puts strain on the TMJ
Thanks for the quick response, if you may ask, what is MSDO?
Nathanael Petucci I’ve never had TMJ. Could MSDO give me TMJ?
@@bigdino475 possibly since it can put strain on the TMJ
How can u avoid MSE dragging into your bones ?
Vitamin d, calcium and work out
Use face mask it will help the mse by reducing its work so you have less pressure going directly to the bones
Won moon has a lecture on pitfalls and MSE. Look for his 40-50 m lecture on TH-cam. I think he said lack of bone density (commenter who said k2, exercise), or screws not deep enough. I could be wrong tho
I feel like the back of jaw/my molars are expanding with MSE but the rest isn’t expanding at the same rate. Maybe my imagination. Has anyone else had this experience?
Any update?. I’m a bit skeptical when nobody follows up on these topics..
@@biancaalexandra4749 how is yours going?
I think he spat part of the MSE at 12:56 😂
Tf is he chewing
The fact that MSE didn't drag into your bones makes me think you have pretty thick bone structure. Do you think this could be a factor as to how modest your results with mewing were?
What? MSE did drag his bones
Vitamin D and work out
@@prince_sach50 And K2
No they’re just modest because he isn’t 7 to 8
So if you have weak bones will the Mse screws drag then?
How many holes does cortical puncture involve?
@@prince_sach50 false, mine was about 20
@@mikeg3895 Oh snap, wow. Well that's not appealing lmao
@@mikeg3895 Thanks. Are the holes right down the middle or are they parallel with the suture?
@@emilesaayman4255 right down the middle of the suture with more focus on loosening up the part farther back
I got 19 :)
“Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”, that is Newton’s third law young man & not his first.
This is torture
How much did the MSE appliance cost you? Is it cheaper than conventional braces or AGGA?
Idk how much Ronald paid but someone else I know had to pay 7k. He's doing payment plans
So estimate it I live in nyc, so for me payment is from 2 to 7 grand.
I think he said around 15k for MSE+Braces+retainers+corticopuncture
Was quoted today in Houston $8000 for MSE and braces afterwards.
Update ..2yrs forward. 12/13/22
MSE/ MARPE installed with 10 cortipunctures. Im a 50 yr old male. Was told to go slow on the turns. So far, so good. Not painful.
Price $6500 with damon braces.
Great explanations but seriously. I did AGGA .. no splitting suture , no dragging screw... we know a crossbite is from an airway issue.
So ur AGGA treatment is sucsessful? You don't have the complications jaw hacks speaks of with his AGAA treatment?
I already have wide cheekbones despite having a smaller bite. If I do get MSE I might get the dome procedure because of this.
Same I have pretty wide cheekbones so my palate is pretty wide but what I need is that forward growth so I’m going to continue mewing.
Same, I wonder if it's connected to diet, did you eat a lot of meat growing up? That was mostly what I ate as a kid so despite being a mouth breather with a narrow palate I have pretty good cheekbones and a normal mandible. And what's the dome procedure?
@@NyanHomeschoolGirl17 my diet is high in dairy. So I consume a lot of calcium and have always maintained a regular diet of vitamin d3 and calcium supplements on top of that. That really encourages a lot of bone growth at a young age.
He describes the dome procedure in this very video but goes further in detail in his video "How MSE Works"
Nathanael Petucci Interesting, I drank A LOT of milk as a kid as well as somewhat frequent cheese indulgences, maybe that does have an impact on development not being as bad. Have you already attempted regular nonsurgical palate expansion? I know Ronald did and it didn't work for him.
@@NyanHomeschoolGirl17 I'm 18 and while my bite isn't ideal, I can work with it to mew. So that's what I'm doing with the hope of raising my maxilla. Perhaps once I get a job and money will I enquire into bone-borne expansion of my upper pallet and SFOT for the lower.
Ron its not about how hard your bone was. Research cranial torsions. Your left side is more externally rotated as demonstrated from the wider left side of your face.
Does Mse effect suction hold?
Does it effect eating and chewing?
Is physical work possible with mse?
Yes to all of those.
@@JawHacks thx for the answer sir. Would you recommend mse even when suction hold can be achieved already but not for significant time?
@@JawHacks BTW I’m 22