Nitrogen Bladder or Piston | Dirtbike Shock
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- Nitrogen Reservoirs work much better with a bladder in them than with a piston!
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I like the science fair show n tell format! naise!!
All I can say is...Wow! I never thought of it this way, always thought as people trying to push small bump sensitivity and yaddayadda. Now you made me wanna try and go get me some bladders! Thanks, really like your videos. Cheers from Brazil!!
Thanks so much
@@highlandcycles thank you very much!!
Similar to a bladder pressure tank for a well.
Good explaination of how the system works
Yes Morgan Yes! this makes so much sense. I'm struggling with the rear being rough on small fast bumps like roots and stones. This could be the solution! Your videos are GOLD.
Thanks. I bet it helps solve the problem
That's actually a great explanation. Thank you.
Thanks
Great video! Makes perfect sense to me. Now only if it would stop snowing so I can get out and try my Highland Cycles/TBT suspension!
No kidding! CLEAR up weather! Important things are waiting.
Just found your channel, it’s awesome.
Thanks so much b
I agree. I'll add that a bladder will contaminate the oil much slower then a piston type ( no aluminum and/ or teflon bushing and "O" ring frictions), less thermal increase (piston friction) and, no need to worry about the correct piston position when re-building. Bladders won't leak oil in the Nytrogen either unless it catastrophically tears up.
Amen
Awesome explanation. Thanks
Thanks man
@@highlandcycles I need to look at my shock. It starts to feel pogo ish in peach valley during long whoop sections. Thanks for the tip
Neat, always wondered what the diff was.
Thanks
What about the MX-Tech Natty with super low friction ? Isnt that a fix for that stiction and the best of both worlds, aka not losing pressure and consistent performance? I think that shock is something wow....not ridden it but the people who did are amazed
I agree
Bladders give a smoother feel 👌🏻
Easier to do shock services with it if your into diy
Agreed
The bladder system is just like a hydraulic accumulator!
Just changed mine to a bladder and ride on it tomorrow, hoping to gain traction on small bumps and stop crushing my spine on big holes/logs without the stiction of the piston.
SKF make a piston with a small bladder in the center now.
Was pointed out to me that the sticker has "Do not heat or dissemble shock" while it was on fire while I was heating it.
Oil moves in and out of the reservoir with the displacement of the shock shaft low or high speed not just high speed, the way you explain it makes sound like it only does at high speed.
You are right about it moving all the time but it’s most important in higher speed compression.
Seems like the piston would have less stiction (than demonstrated) when installed with oil against reservoir wall and lubing O rings.
It probably does but still doesn’t move like a bladder
I will add my 2c. The bladders perform better and are more bump sensitive and give the shock more compliance. In having said that, there is a bit less reliability and higher maintenance with a bladder as they begin to lose pressure over several month. As an example I build lots of suspension and my own personal bladder will lead down about 15lbs over the course of 4 months or so with not much riding. Also If you are a AA GNCC'r you can blow them up. In general pistons maintain psi for years and bladders will need to be recharged or rebuilt every season at least to maintain ride quality. It isn't the end of the world but over time the shock will sit lower in the stroke as it loses pressure and will cavitate more easily. Overall bladders win though for ride quality. I just wish someone would develop a better material that doesn't leak or blow up under high stress than it really is no contest.
Agree but suspension should be rebuilt every 40-50 hrs so none of that is really an issue.
@@highlandcycles Should be or IS built hahaha. Some of my buddies don't even realized you have to rebuild stuff. lol Your right but people push it way too long in cases and the bladders have like 100psi in them. I agree they work better though. Love your vids man.
I like bladders, too.
Great information as always and can see exactly what you mean I’ve got a Ktm and thinking about a sherco next with kyb do you know if they bladder or piston ?
KYB is always bladder.
Bladers are fantastic if you service your suspension on time. I have worked on bladder kit shocks that the nitrogen leaked into the oil side of the shock. This is bad in every way; you have bubbles in your oil, low pressure in the bladder, and the shock is like an explosive when you open it for service.
Absolutely. People need to service their shocks way more often
Not correct at all. Ever seen bubbles in a sealed coke bottle? You won't as it's under pressure just like your shock. No cavitation.... It's a myth.
@@highlandcycles I'd disagree with that. Look at book spec and the service times are stupidity short. Bladder or floating piston won't matter. Unless we are talking 250hours between servings. You have to remember lots of places recommend less than 20hours! Mine was just done at 250 hours by me. Second hand bike I've just purchased and the oil was in surprisingly good nick considering.
All three of my KTM's have been converted to bladders. Life changing... especially my bank balance!
100%. I forgot to mention how much easier it is to service a bladder set up.
@@highlandcycles easier? It's exactly the same bar setting the floating piston height. That's it.
@@twowheelpilot it’s easier to bleed with a bladder. I’m my opinion
grate video/ thank you! how much psi shuld i pump the bladder?
150psi
The nitrogen is actually a high pressure cushion and because it's an inert gas it's not effected by temperature change which keeps the pressure stable and consistent, I've converted every KTM shock I've ever owned to a bladder system, much easier to service that way.
Yep
They are made to take a pounding an hold up nitrogen on big bumps no small bumps. Faster the better. Punish the shock.
All 22% of it verses an atmospheric pressure fill.
Nice demonstration of the bladder vs piston. If you are only racing motocross it is less of a benefit. If you are into cross country/desert racing it is a must have. WP should have bladders from the factory.
Agree
@@highlandcycles hey are you willing to mail me your necj Suzuki needle?
@@scottphillips445 I sold it
Bladder makes a lot of sense 👍
Totally
Just ask KYB
OK, now that makes sense my bike has a pds system and i can never make the High speed compression to not have a "hit" on the rocky stuff, ether i open the clickers all the way and i bottom out on the jumps or i go to normal settings and have to live with the "hit"
Yep
How long has this been out? It makes more sense then a piston. Thanks for sharing.
The bladder kits have been around for a long time now.
Since the dawn of time. Look at Japanese bikes. All bladder as OEM
a doubt for clarification on a shock after itz serviced the rebound is not working at any position weather itz full open on clickers or full closed rebound remains same?
is it because the bleed or removing of air was not done properly?
Itz?????
Sorry I assume you are open to counter arguments and maybe think through without bias. - the Bladder/Piston discussion is old and at least decades. The misconception is always the same.Piston is sticky and hinders movement.
1. proper piston is never sticky - also not at high temp. I tried with oven heated reservoir piston with actual WP plastic piston.
There is some slip/stick but can be overcome with the tip of your finger as demonstrated in this video. You can improve by greas/oil on the nitrogen side of reservoir.
2. The force needed (fingertip!) is translated from rear wheel by levers 1:3 to the shock with its 18mm rod, which hydraulically translates again 1:3 to the 40mm reservoir piston. A force of 10N (1kg, approx.2pounds) at the piston will translate to a 9th at the rear wheel. This means there is no way bladder piston lead to high (or even recogniceable) resistance against rear wheel movement.
3. I saw no evidence ever where someone proved the benefit bladder vs. piston on a test stand.
We had these discussions on and on and always same finale: both work. Bladders tend to loos nitrogen quicker to the oil side and thus need more frequent oil change.
Best regards, Hacht (senior engineer and suspension enthusiast)
Always open to other options and I understand what you are saying for sure. Especially the amount of force part. Makes total sense. But here is my seat of the pants experience. I know that isn’t scientific but it is important when it comes to confidence in a bike. I can feel a noticeable improvement in rear end movement with a bladder, especially when shock is hot. Now, they have gotten way better and the new piston setups are good but I still feel like the bladder is better. The other thing I like about the bladder is ease of service. It is much quicker to do a bladder shock. As far as the loss of nitrogen, I guess I don’t honestly know. If you service the shock as often as you should, neither system looses nitrogen. Over a long time, maybe the bladder does but all sorts of other things go wrong then too which cause poor handling. Oh and I have done quite a few bladder conversions for people without valving and the response has always been very good. Could be mental, could be real, hard to say for sure but I like them. And now KTM offers it as an upgrade which is funny honestly
Hi guys not to turn this into a suspension debate but the main reason why we have series is to provide a space for the amount of volume that’s going into the shock body as the shock is compressed. The length of the shaft x width has a value which must be compensated. Oil and steel are not compressible so you need a gas or device. Could have been done with a spring behind a seperator plate but a gas is easier and somewhat tuneable with pressure. If not compensated by rezzie shock would not compress and explode I think the video stresses more to the fact that it’s for bump absorption but it’s really not the intent. Sone shocks are emulsion shocks which pressurize gas with oil but these are old tech and must be run one way or they will seperate gas and oil. One thing must be careful with the WP Xact is that the Rezzy canister body has a step cutout about halfway into body limiting piston travel if shock is overfilled at reassembly can break the plastic piston I do dig your videos.
Hi Morgan how much is the piston blader for my husky tx 300
185
KTM isn't WRONG! They are on the money. Your money. While the Japanese come with a bladder as OEM, KTM Group bikes come with a floating piston THEN offer the bladder as a power parts upgrade. KTM isn't wrong they just know how to Keep Taking Money.
Very true
Any tips on getting the piston out for a bladder conversion. Thanks
You normally remove the whole can and install a new one
No need to remove the can on my beta to install a bladder kit. I managed to use the rubber air pressure plate of my pipe repair kit and low pressure from my compressor to coax the piston gently out with low air pressure. Hopefully the bladder will take the edge of some of those g out hits that really smart sometimes. Thanks for the vids.
Nice rundown of how it works. Do all Japanese shocks have bladders? Showa & KYB?
Yes
@@highlandcycles Why does KTM opt to not have bladders, linkage etc? Weight savings? Cost ? Both?
@@H8er-Maker I can't figure it out.
@H8er Maker $ KTM does make a bladder kit...I just picked one up & plan to switch out my piston in the next few weeks...I believe their high end shocks are running bladder kits now.
@@robbotes9165 exactly. That’s why it’s funny that they put them in anything
What bladder kit do you recommend? Do you need a special bleeder to install?
Either CSR or SDI and no
Thanks, happy new year!@@highlandcycles
I have a ktm with an aftermarket bladder, and a couple ktms with pistons. I'm not high speed, I'm not sure I can tell the difference. When I change fluids, bladder is easier for me, lol.
Current race and trail bikes, who uses pistons other than the ktms and other color KTM's?
Thanks for sharing the video, you will dig into lots of shocks vs me. You worked on a china bike suspension a little while back, did it have a bladder?
The china bike did have a bladder. I don't know of any other brands that use a piston. Servicing is much easier with the bladder.
@@highlandcycles pretty sure Ohlins use a piston in their rear shocks. Problem with WP is they use a plastic piston which isn't super durable .
@@Andy-co6pn I didn’t know that Ohlins used them. I would still swap it. Although I have never been that impressed with Ohlins stuff
How do you bleed a wp pds shock without the fancy wp vacuum machine?...is it possible to do on the bench?
Yes, we use the DRC bleed cups. They work great
@@highlandcycles wow thanks I jus googled drc bleed cups and that's exactly what I wud need...btw I saw a vid by slavens from 2013 where he says bladders aren't suitable for wp shocks because the nitrogen leaks thru the bladder and contaminates the oil making it all frothy like a 'beer head'...is that an accurate assessment?...and which bladder kits are best/most reliable? - was looking at the racetech ones on rmatv... thanks 👍
@@aganatra7419 hahaha. Old Jeff. So the badder will eventually leak nitrogen into the oil over a long time but if you service your shock when you should (every 50-60 hrs) it’s not a problem. What he doesn’t mention is that the piston style will do the same thing too. Maybe takes a little longer but it’s still sealed by rubber. One is an oring one is a bladder. The race tech ones are good.
@@highlandcycles yea makes sense - so when you service the shock do you have to change the bladder every time?...also wit rgds to the bleeding process wit the cups - I get how to put in the main shaft with the pistons n seals after filling the housing wit oil and bleeding as much air out of that end but after thats done n the circlip is in then what the process to bleed the shock completely? - from what I've watched/read (correct me wher I'm wrong pls):
- you have to fill the bladder with air (not sure how much psi?)
- then position the shock so the bleed hole is at the top most position
- then if using the drc cup, take out the bleed screw and install the pipe and then the cup
- then pour oil into the cup so it's like half full n then cycle the shock so the air bubbles come up and out of the cup and keep adding oil so air doesn't get sucked back in
- once no more bubbles are coming up then what?? - this is where I'm not sure what to do but I guess (with shock extended full) you can suck up the oil in the cup and then unscrew it from its pipe and then also suck up whatever oil you can from that too without putting any air back in and then remove the pipe, wipe off the spillage, maybe top the oil up again and then close the bleed screw? - that's what I think - not sure if it's the correct/best way
- then basically the bleeding is done and you can take out the air from the bladder and finally fill it with nitrogen (not sure what psi - 175 - 200? - what do you use?)
Sorry for long message but I'm a moron and without step by step instructions Im pretty sure I'll f it up pretty quickly 😆 so wud appreciate your advice 👍
Thanks for your input and keep the vids coming
@@aganatra7419 you don’t have to change the bladder. It’s like a tube in a tire. Eventually the air/nitrogen seeps through. Just service and refill.
There has to be a reason that WP believes in the piston. What is their reasoning?
The piston leaks less nitrogen over a longer period of time which is a good thing. Also (and this is from my conspiracy theory mind) it makes it harder to service by a normal person which would drive biz to dealers.
@@highlandcycles Thanks
Agreed bladders are better
100%
I mean throw some damn oil in that thing in the piston slides easily. I'm not saying you're wrong, but why does everybody have to show the sticky Xmas piece of shit shock piston they can find? I've had my shock apart before. And the piston moved incredibly smooth.
This video was shocking
Hahahhaa
The ole sticky piston, no bueno
Not at all
Service it and it won't be sticky!
@@kjclark7 this was off of a brand new bike.
I've seen sticky from new as well. Still needs to be serviced if sticky. Just because the bike is new doesn't mean it's right. Look at all the lack of grease.
So I guess KTM gets away with charging people $11k for a dirt bike while giving them cheap suspensions. Capitalism.
That’s how I feel. They do cut corners on suspension components for sure.
You mean to tell me my race suspension for 1600 hundred plus is cheap? Nitro big bumps screw little bumps.
@@firstamendmenttshirt4768 Think about it. You had to spend an extra $1600. There's your answer.
@@LuckyNikitaBoba hmm, is it plastic?
If you try to push your bladder kit, then...ok, i understand, but if you really think bladder is better, then you have no clue what you are talking about.
I disagree. That is because I learned this from someone who believed like you do (very accomplished suspension tuner) until they tried the bladder and put it on a shock Dino. I have never personally done that but I have ridden plenty of both at a pretty good pace and can say that I really believe that the bladder is better.
@@highlandcycles for the 99% of the riders there is no difference. I have tested back to back, different riders, they can't tell which is which. I know the bladder is more sensitive to rapid movements in the Dyno, but in real condition there is no difference. The problem with the bladders shocks is the migration of the nitrogen through the rubber wall in the oil. The older the shock the bigger the problem. This will degrade the shock performance much much more then a slight friction. The piston doesn't have this problem.
@@flotr6465 fair enough. But I find that if you change the oil as often as you should, the nitrogen doesn’t migrate (not enough to make any difference) and I have seen some very bubbly (nitro infused) oil in piston shocks too. And I agree that a lot of people can’t possibly tell but I know I can especially in a big long set of whoops at pace. The other benefit to the bladder is that it’s easier to service for the home mechanic. You obviously know what you’re talking about and I appreciate that. We just have different opinions
@@highlandcycles Servicing my Beta ZF shock right now which has a K-Tech bladder installed. ~50hrs on the shock and the pressure was down to 80 psi. the other 80 psi was in the oil.
@@PrimalEnduro that sucks. Can you see or find a pin hole. I have taken apart lots of bladder shocks at 60-70 hrs with no loss.