Does low bore axis make you shoot better?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
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I just like the fact that the premise of the video is you should train with several different firearms and find what works best for you
Exactly 🔥
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Contrary to popular belief, the Sig 226 is damn near the same bore axis to the CZ 75. This was measured on camera with calipers on a TH-cam [th-cam.com/video/ZZmjhBaMQno/w-d-xo.htmlsi=6zeADTYn5ukJGpDl] channel.
Yeah man I thought the same thing high bore until I really starting shooting a p320 xfive dh3 then I realized it’s probably one of the most reliable & accurate handguns you can possibly own. 3000rds no cleaning man and it’s still running the same as the first day out the box. Just sayin.
One has nothing to do with the other.
So reliable they can choose to shoot by themselves 😂
I have a P01 that I use to test my new pistols against, site acquisition, recoil control and accuracy. The low bore axis does have a bit of difference.
I agree. Guess we are unexperienced lol. Just shoot a gun you shoot well with. I shoot lower bore axis guns better and I just prefer the impulse over guns with bricks for slides.
His claim doesn't make sense...it clearly makes the gun flip more when bore axis is higher...which does affect reacquiring the target for subsequent shots, hence the entire reason comps are popular...to minimize muzzle flip and make it it super simple for accurate follow up shots...and the P226 was flipping more...and he admitted he's not as fast....why?...because it takes more time to flip, and then flip down for every round.....P-01 with a comp would be phenomenal....love that pistol :) but have never shot one comped...always wanted to try one comped
The best way to look at bore axis is in terms of leverage. Some pistols exert more leverage than others even though the amount of energy generated by the round is the same. Some guns are designed to impart more mechanical advantage to the round than others. Simple physics.
I used to shoot P226s and 229s a lot. While the amount of energy is the same, muzzle flip is more noticeable with them than guns with a lower bore axis. Training helps a lot. Just realize that over time and firing a lot of rounds, trying to control guns that tend to flip more than others will cause repetitive stress issues to your wrists and elbows. Simple physics. Ask me how I know. :)
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Safe, yep. 200%.
No bloody peace and quiet on a Sunday morning.
I’d be to jealous if he didn’t want to be friends.
I think it can def help make a gun easier to shoot. But it’s a combination. My pmm built p320 is by far my best shooter despite having such a high bore axis.
I like my pmm build but recently but a Herrington comp on my scorpion and holy shit that thing is smooth
@@randominternetprofile8270 the Herrington one is only one top port where the pmm one is two. I doubt it’d feel better.. I tried the spectre comp p320 and liked the pmm better so sold that
Love the non condescending direction you have and give excellent advice for shooters new and old.
Thank you!
Some people shoot Sigs better. Some people hold a Glock and it ponits down. Acccurcy suffers greatly.
What truly matters is the ability to quickly stack shots on target.
Lower bore axis, along with other features can make this easier, but obviously there are plenty of people who can run a 320 very well. I can’t shoot them for shit, I shoot a 365 much better. More recoil, but the dot barely moves.
*Bore axis DOES MATTER. You need SOME. The Laugo Alien demonstrates that.*
_We should never aspire to put the recoil directly inline with our arm. It then introduces lateral instability._
When shooting the Alien, the return to POI is 'random'.
When you have the bore axis above your arm, your wrist can then moderate just ONE force, upward. And the return is then in one axis.
The Alien was one of my worst gun purchases, ever.
Let me grab that Alien off ya on the cheap -- little more cash strapped these days since wrapping up my divorce, so help a brother out while also getting from under one of your worst gun purchases... win/win?
Yes, the Bore Axis certainly does effect the efficiency of operation!! It's not rocket science!!😉🤣👊
It's all about training. I was used to shoot glock, then pick up a p320, and at the beginning it sucked, until I realized that the p320 has much more "room" at the frame, so I can put my support hand higher and a little forward (without interfering in the slide function), compensating the high bore axis and getting more recoil control.
The same training with a better gun would be objectively better.
@@DinoNucciwhich better gun would that be? Can't get much better than a Sig, I've owned several P320s and never had an issue other than my thumb keeping the slide lock from engaging. I'm betting you're just an ignorant internet hater.
@@frankisyourdaddyThe fact that you think there's nothing better out there than a SIG P320 is crazy
just as good derp derp wait till it breaks in half
@@frankisyourdaddy
p320 is dogshit
Does bore axis make a difference? Yes. Is it enough to matter? Mostly no. Is it something that you can train around? Definitely. Is it something you should worry about? Only if you're a competitive shooter and you can actually make use of the 0.001 split times it may change.
I like how you go over muzzle flip vs recoil, good info here!
Muzzle flip is a product of recoil..
Finally someone admits it lol
Matters what you train with.
Does bore axis really matter?
No. Recoil will be transferred more straight back into the wrist than back and upward with a low bore axis. So recoil is not reduced, just transferred differently. The only real advantage of a lower bore axis might be slightly quicker reacquisition of sights between shots with flatter shooting since upward muzzle flip is reduced. Recoil will have to be managed regardless of bore axis so the advantage is negligible. Recoil control and accuracy is on the shooter, not the gun.
This is what I'm now interested in. Thanx for the video. Got into firearms about 4 years ago. I'm in my 50's. I'm All In now. Safety is #1. Haven't watched a nfl, nba, mlb, or my beloved nhl, in about 2:years. My Sooners and Hawkeyes... eh, once in a while. Much more fun to take my wife, sons, and daughter in law shooting.
Love this! Teach them well 🤘
Excellent discussion. What I admire and respect about you sir besides the fact you are an excellent super duper shooter is your humble personality and down to earth attitude. That speaks volumes about you and truely this is why people like you. It’s the right attitude just like Jerry Miculek. Good luck in everything you do
Does it matter? It's a minor variable in a long list of variables. Caliber, length of barrel and length of slide, weight of slide/barrel/guide rod/frame, grip, stance, ammo type(+p), ammo grain weight, etc etc. Yes it matters, everything matters. Is there an inherent advantage? Depends on the sum of the parts meshing well with the end user interface.
Pissing off 320 guys is hilarious. Every time someone’s having an issue everyone comments “shitty ammo”
Can you show me your grip on both sides please again.
I got a cheapo ruger ec9 for my first pistol, and got ok with it, maybe 800rounds, then i got a canik and didnt realize how different each pistol could feel. I was much better with the canik almost immediately. Was able to get to 25 yrds and actually hit the paper lmao. I used to shoot a ton of lever 30-30 when i was younger, and some skeet with my 20g when i was real young, i didnt know how much more difficult a pistol was to shoot well. Its a bucketload of fun, and love the challenge.
The smoothest 10mm to shoot is the XTEN Comp followed by the XTEN. They have hIgH bORE aXiS.
The topic is ridiculous. While there might be some merit to it, people are too fixated on it; much like they are with over penetration when they need to be fixated on making hits under dynamic circumstances.
I suppose it’s easier to talk about bore axis and over penetration when one (or the intended audience) doesn’t know or haven’t experienced much else.
Bore axis something a bad shooter talks about.
At some point, certain designs lose in the ergonomics department by shoving the hand further and further up and the trigger finger has to reach downward. Some design the trigger differently to adjust for that by changing the path, pulling diagonally up towards the rear sight like Steyr M9 variants. There is a balance in between instead of maxing out just one ability.
If it's training that matters: if you trained the same, with a gun with a lower bore axis, it would lead to better results than doing so with a higher bore axis.
If it's ergos that matters: if the ergos were the same, as a gun with a lower bore axis, it would lead to better results than having a gun with a higher bore axis.
If it's weight that matters: if the weight was the same, as a gun with a lower bore axis, it would lead to better results than having a gun with a higher bore axis.
A lot of copium in these comments.
Yet competition shooters with high bore axis guns can shoot faster than you or me and don't seem to have any issues you complain about.
And how much of a loser are you that you upvote your own comments?
This is true. I normally compete and run with 115 bulk ammo. A buddy of mine gave me some extremely low recoil powder puff competition loads, and it threw me off big time despite technically being better.
People blame the platform they have...in reality its their grip
I love my P320 Spectre Comp with the tungsten infused grip module. She’s nice and heavy. Sig did an awesome job with that infusion. I have a nice size gas pedal on it for more downward front pressure, which makes her run pretty flat. I’m quick with it. But I also have thousands of rounds through her. I’m still quicker with my Staccato P though. 😜
Where is the Yeet Cannon???
Look up what Guntweaks says about bore axis and index alignment. I choose to shoot a completely reliable P320 Max in competition. I also have an occasionally unreliable Alien and a bunch of other very good performance oriented pistols - CZ’s , Walther, Canik, Bul , HK, , S&W etc . IMO , Bore Axis is a minor element in the overall characteristics of a pistol. Lots of other factors come into play , primarily rounds down range.
Let's be real though. If the Alien cost $700 it would be one of the top 5 handguns sold. It is one of the best designed handguns in history.
For damn sure. Fantastic gun
@PewView since bore axis really doesn't matter, send me that piece of junk Alien! Haha.
(what a primo pistol).
Thanks for all your content Nick.
A lot of extra engineering, I don't know if it would be as durable.
Some psychology and perception to it as well, plus there's a difference between an experienced shooter and somebody that gets paid to shoot a lot - if you like the way the gun shoots (feels in your hand, how it acts), you'll shoot it better. To me the low bore axis guns are more easily controllable, and that comes out more with things that have more recoil than a 9mm. My 10mm 1911s and G20s are nicer to shoot than my Sig P220 10mm (tho the Sig is my favorite in that caliber - Sig always has nice ergos), the Sig flips more than the other two. I haven't seen it done on video yet, but I would bet money that a Chiappa Rhino can be ran quickly, more accurately than comparable-length 'standard' 357s due to the low muzzle flip and the direction of the felt recoil.
As much as i love your shorts, these videos are gold. 🙌
His claim doesn't make sense...it clearly makes the gun flip more when bore axis is higher...which does affect reacquiring the target for subsequent shots, hence the entire reason comps are popular...to minimize muzzle flip and make it it super simple for accurate follow up shots...and the P226 was flipping more...and he admitted he's not as fast....why?...because it takes more time for the muzzle to flip up, and then flip down for every round than a gun with a low bore axis does...which is why the Alien was so easy to shoot fast..... and saying "bore axis doesn't make a difference" is not a complete sentence....doesn't make a difference in WHAT way? It clearly does for muzzle flip, and clearly does for speed of follow up shots....and clearly does for ease of follow ups too as the gun isn't bouncing all over the place as much with a low bore axis pistol....so statement makes no sense
It's just simple physics...but if you can't grip it well, how can you rip it?
Isn't CZ Shadow the of OG of low boar axis, plus their grip ergos are good too, how many clones are in production?
Did you know that sig offered to do a ful funded investigation into that discharge you mentioned?
The department declined because like thousands of other cheap Departments, they manipulated a glock holster to force a sig to fit, via dremmeling, meling plastic to make trigger housing retention work, ect.
The hell do you expect?
Now the drop safety issue... that was a real problem. Funny that you didn't mention it was iroed out within the first generation.... lol
This brings me back to the "goes off on its own" idea,
How many civilians have had this problem😮 none😂.
Only police departments that want to cram a sig into a glock holster and save 50$😂
The Archon and Laugo shot flatter. Guess what, the shooter is experienced and appears to suffer from a lack of honesty. Maybe, just maybe, he doesn't want to lose p+ss off the big box manufacturers like Glock. Anyone with two eyes or a decent pair of reading glasses can see that the low bore axis guns perform better! Grow up people!
5000 rds with high bore axis and 5000 rounds with lower bore axis. Of course training matters, but I think its a matter of a mechanical advantage due just by nature of the design and physics for that muzzle flip.
It does not matter for shooting self defense from 7 yards, it does matter for shooting serious bulls eye from 25 meters, because high axis multiplies shooters’s mistakes in sigth alignment on target. That’s why top bulls eye 22 lr pistols, as well as some centerfire, have very low axis. For what you do in your backyard, does not matter, Go to a serious bulls eye competition and you will see a huge difference in points.
IME muzzle flip and felt recoil are related though. All else being equal, less flip equals more recoil felt since the energy that would be pulling that barrel up now goes strait back. Something I never thought about till I got a revolver with adjustable barrel weights and was surprised it hit as hard as it did, although I took advantage of that w/o thinking when shooting big bores.
So I'll pass on a 500 made by Chiappa thank you very much :)
You are correct, and revolvers were designed to rotate in ones hand to mitigate that recoil energy.
My P365 recoils quite a bit - a lot of energy is transferred into my hands, but the dot barely moves, very little muzzle rise.
Just train with your guns, recoil is controllable for everyone. Just watch PewView video on recoil control and you'll stop crying about guns being "too snappy"
I understand but I don’t understand 🤔the hate for P320s like Glocks hasn’t had more negligent discharges since the 80’s hell it’s cops still forgetting one in the chamber on takedowns shooting them selves. Either way they’re both negligence by the user try not dropping it.
Bore axis only matters if you have no idea what you're doing, and gotta blame something. Just like video games. It's connection. It's cheaters. It's frame rate.
The answer to this question is really simple if we understand basic things about recoil. The fact this is a debate shows how easily nonsense spreads in the gun community.
Bore axis does matter, unless you want to deny basic physics. HOWEVER there are multiple factors (grip texturing, slide weight, etc) that affect how well a gun shoots, and there are also factors dictating how well someone shoots with various guns (time training in certain platforms). So the bottom line is this: if two guns are exactly the same except bore axis, then low bore axis is better. Realistically speaking no two guns are this similar, and which one shoots better will come down to a case by cases basis since the various factors must be considered. Bore axis is one of multiple factors to consider, it plays a role in determining which gun recoils better but doesn’t definitively tell you what the answer is. Any significantly different way of looking at this debate simply doesn’t make any sense because it either goes against physics or doesn’t consider nuance which matters.
Bore axis doesn't matter. . . proceeds to murder with the gun with the lowest bore axis. . . RIGHT
I was unaware of the Lago Alien until watching this. I must have it, or, ahh, umm, $5-6k, wtf, yeah, NO!
If you take two shooters of the exact same skill level and then let one train 1000 rounds on the Alien and the other 1000 rounds on the P320, the Alien guy might just barely win. However, if the other guy had a SVI Infifnity instead of the Alien, he would probably also win.
Good guns are good. Who would've thought? However, to get to the same level as a pro shooter with a bad gun you still need 99.9% training and only 0.1% nicer gear...
Bore axis vs action... my Beretta M9A3 has a high bore axis but shoots flat for me due to the breech-locking action.
Even though you hate 320s, you admit there are people that shoot them better than you. Impressive. I think that is good advice. Shoot what works best for you.
Piss off the 320 guys 😅😂😂
I’ve been following your tips for handgun shooting and dude, I couldn’t miss at the range yesterday, thanks for the awesome content and merry Christmas!
When this guy says there are many people that are better shooters than he is Michael, that makes me freaking terrible
I didn't know you speed the videos up when you shoot until today. Will you not do that, please. Honesty matters more than bore axis.
(Look at time stamp 4:50)
To The gun owners in here why do people keep buying Sigs? Don’t get me wrong they’re cool looking but those are some serious flaws they have.
anyone who thinks bore axis doesn't matter is either
1. too stupid to know what it means
or
2. is a p320/handgrenade fanboy
Hi brother,, im from Bangladesh,, can you send me a gun..plz
This is some virtue flex nonsense. Physics matter, The harder you have to train with a pistol to get small groups the worse it is. On a long enough timeline you can get good with most any pistol. Totally besides the point though.
Bro is being humble today!! I don’t believe anyone can out shoot you 😂😂
Second. Just found you and love your videos. Also managed to get one of the last 1911 Apaches you made!
You’re going to love it! 🔥
You should play music with metal targets. It's Christmas after all...
I love hearing people talk shit about the 320, then watch it perform well.
The problem is they perform when they're not supposed to be performing😂
@@920WASHBURN that's how you stay on your toes if they don't get shot off 👌
@@thehomemadedisease9485 or you could get good at lord of the dance
Whatever works for each individual is what matters
Wrong.
Yes.
Do not let honest outlaw see this video he’s gonna get real upset😂
I like Honest Outlaws videos but he is a trigger and bore axis snob like no other I've seen.
Laws of Physics guarantee that it matters, to a certain extent. But, we humans have many ways of compensating.
New sub from France here!
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I shoot my archon much better than my 226. Follow up shots are also faster
How many shots before a pistol barrel is used up? Generally speaking.
I want the alien cuz it looks cool
They are insanely good
i'm with you, just get out and shoot and figure out what works best for you. rounds down range are the best bet. shooting a lot of different platforms helps too. keep up the hard work and thanks for the content!!
Sig guys all shat at once! Their fav quote telling pepl "have you personally seen a sig go off by itself"
Grip design has a lot to do with controlling muzzle flip and recoil on any pistol. A grip with lots of traction for the support hand, both texture and surface area, makes any pistol feel easier to control.
Ffin good video.
*Revolvers avoiding eye contact.
Im satisfied with my X5 Legion. I can buy 2 more Legion for one of these
This guy could shoot better with a rubber band and paper clip than most.
Well that was a lovely video to watch first thing in the morning. Sooothing
PewView making follow up shots great again.
We need an official name for your high left grip style so think one up and get back to us cheers
I love your vids man, but you need to work on your audio, a louder voice over shooting mate ;)
The laugo cost 6k, everything else was 1k or under
Curious what holster you would use for carrying a 2011?
Offended in 320 carry.
...i get it though.
JJ Racaza says" leverage and friction".
All the 320 boys have entered the chat. Ask any Army, Air Force, or Navy service member... those 320s have issues. Issues beyond drop safe stuff. If you're one of those "well I've shot 500,000 rounds through mine with no malfunctions". Good for you. At the very least, Sig boys need to admit their are mad quality control issues.
Do you think you'll try the new archon type B that's coming out?
you may not notice this or you may but you tilt your gum to the right a little bit especially with the 226
No cz75s
Question. What jacket is that your wearing?
What jacket are you wearing...super nice
Highest bore axis and no high point pistols on the table 😂😂
Bro get your hands on an Atlas gunworks nyx or athena for review
Good video. You like the 320 deeeeeeep down tho it seems
Don’t say that 🤫😂
@@PewView Its fine I wont tell anyone your secret 🤣 Merry Christmas brutha
Ok..Next Year...Jingle Bells(101) and "Silent Night " ..tuned steel targets!....OR...need to get a bunch of Pews together for a full orchestral arrangement!..🤔
MERRY CHRISTMAS PEW ! and Everyone !
Trust me. As a Walther PDP guy: there’s so much HATE surrounding the “high bore axis” but I can shoot one better than a Glock. I have the groups to prove it. People will blame everything except their grip and fundamentals. 🤷🏾♂️