It’s not helped by the large number of sailing channels who sail all over the world yet somehow find that the BEST PICTURE for the thumbnail is always a ‘t and a’ shot of the woman. Lol
Went to look at a 32' and after the visit I walked around the docks for a while and as I was walking back past the boat the Captain of the boat in the next slip tapped me on the shoulder and told me the bilge ran 24/7 and that a second pump had been used the day before as they were washing the boat (for our visit). That Captain gave me a card of a marine engineer who had surveyed the boat a few months before that cancelled a previous sale. Sailors helping sailors....
@@boatfools I should mention that I was told the moldy odor below was just because they had washed the boat inside and outside and it hadn't dried out. I believed them . . .
Exactly right. On a beautiful spring day earlier this year, my wife and I drove 3 hrs to look at a “pristine” Nonsuch 22. The broker was there to meet us and looked over our shoulder the entire time we looked this tiny boat over. We were considering it. We too went for lunch, and then went back to look at the boat ourselves with fresh, unaccompanied eyes. Water damage. Check. Hull damage. Check. No motor history. Check. I wrote the broker a note outlining what we saw, and offered a very reasonable 50% of asking, since these boats are rare and don’t come up for sale very often. He told me “Thanks. Good luck with your search”. 6 months later, this boat still sits for sale. Reality is a difficult thing to face. Thanks for the very real video.
Went from Seattle to Annapolis to look at a 52 foot Cheoy Lee motorsailor that"only needs a valve adjust on the engines" to be ready to sail home. Took less than a minute to find that it was ready to sink. Rudder was rotten, skeg moved an inch when rudder was jiggled by hand meaning core rot, all thru hulls (28) frozen and bright green, deck delammed from hull, new packing glands held on by one clamp, raw water strainers to engines only held in place by the hoses, the list goes on and on. Turns out the beautiful pictures on the web page and the ones the broker sent me were over 15 years old. The boat is still for sale but now has a note adding that the skeg has been repaired. I told the marina that it was in such poor condition that if it was in a duck pond, I would be sitting in the dingy wearing my survival suit and if they put it in the water to leave the travel lift down. Beware of brokers, they LIE. Edit I looked her up on the net and it seems that some poor fool bought her for 180K.
On the video of the keel it looks like this has been an ongoing problem because it looks like someone has repaired the keel before the last paint that looks like the $2500.00 repair just below the main crack of concern. This is why I’m not a fan of blue antifouling paint; how old is the paint I’ve owned several 1960’s model boats and none have had a blue hue on the water side. My last two had 65% copper surplus paint from the US Navy yard in burnt red, the worms didn’t even like it.
Yeah, if they told me that the boat needed 10k in repairs, I would simply add that amount to purchase price and see if I thought the boat was worth that, but to blatantly hide it, yeah no, I'll pass.
I helped out a friend by surveying a 30 y/o cruising boat with a similar hidden secret. First hint that something was wrong was the way every pic of the boat's interior looked like a staged photoshoot - super clean, everything neatly stowed, tasteful decorations and vases of flowers everywhere. (Flowers? Really?) Boat had been super-detailed; not a spec of dust or dirt anywhere and a super-shiny hull. I could tell just by looking at the ad that somebody was hiding something. The broker spent the entire time telling my friend about the dream of sailing and focused on accessories, electronics and leisure features of the boat. I finally found the deal-breaker when I stepped back from the stern (it was hauled out) and sighted down the center line. The bottom of the rudder was a good inch or more off center. At some point the boat had grounded hard enough to bend the rudder shaft. When I pointed this out to the broker he told me I was being too cautious and said "All old cruising boats have a few bumps and bruises" and that "that's an easy fix; 'couple of hundred dollars". At that point I told my friend to walk away and told the broker he was endangering someone's life. Imagine the rudder falling off if you were hundreds of miles offshore in bad weather!
If it hit hard enough to bend a rudder post an inch out what did it do to the rest of the hull the rudder is attached to , i'm guessing a lot of damage that's hard to spot
I made the mistake of trusting my friend's surveys and not getting my own independent survey. Repairs have cost over 2x the initial price over 4yrs. Get a fresh look at what it needs AND what a reasonable price would be. Trusting that survey and my friend's word, I drastically overpaid on the initial price too. However, nothing compares to the insanity and expense of doing the necessary repairs and doing them right (which I have been). Now I'm out of money and the boat is still worth less than 50% of what I paid for it (I've finally had it surveyed after the work). My lesson and what I tell others is to just stay away from boat ownership. Join a club, volunteer to crew for races, rent to your hearts content, but don't buy. No boats. Never. Not even brand new. Never again.
It's not for everyone! And your idea of joining a boat club and/or hopping on a boat as crew is a terrific idea for those folks who think boat ownership is not for them. Plenty of ways to enjoy sailing and time on the water - we call this using OPBs - Other People's Boats.
Yes, buyer beware and get a survey done. In 2005 I was interested in buying a 36' ketch. It had some issues I thought I could live with. The surveyor gave it a fair rating and the boat yard foreman told me it had keel bolts that needed replacing. There was water coming out of the (full) keel drain hole a week after it was hauled out. I got my deposit back and considered the expense of a survey money well spent. Eventually the boat was sold to someone with deep pockets. He had the keel bolts replaced, along with other necessary work. I sent him a copy of the survey after he sailed his ketch to Hawaii. Two years later I bought the same model ketch in San Diego. It had been well maintained. I still have that boat and enjoy sailing it. But I spend 10X the time on maintenance.
Lie ,cheat , steal . Some folks just don't give a damn about anything except their money. That is the nicest sentence I could come up with. Thanks for sharing your vid.👍
A conversation with a broker about an "very good" condition boat: Is everything stated in the ad accurate? Yes, 100%. Ok, I want to arrange a viewing and have only one condition, if there are any lies you will pay our expenses. I can't do that. If you're not lying you have nothing to loose, so why not? Well, there may be issues that we missed in our inspection. No problem, you're only going to be held financially responsible for the things expressed in the ad. Krickets. We knew where the boat was docked so we looked at it without telling anyone, you could tell that it was a recently polished turd from several slips away. Once close up, just from the stuff visible from the dock, it looked like a salvage. To top it off, the shore power breaker was tripped and the bilge pump was very active, it probably wouldn't be long before it was under water unless someone tended to it.
The sight of the fore stay would be the point over running for me. $10,000 for the keel but that off centre fore stay implies the keel is the least of that boats issues
So, that was my instinct, too, though the yard manager said it was "superficial". I disagree. It looked jenky and it was the first thing I saw...which brought my focus to high-alert status for the rest of the boat tour...
Indeed! I was on a friends Pearson 25 this past summer, 15-20 knot wind close hauled where the forestay pulled out of the bow, ripped off a portion of the decking and down came the mast! (No injuries) No surprise it was an old shoddy repair of a stress crack that had allowed water in for years. I will never bypass the seriousness of thoroughly inspecting small cracks in fiberglass!!
Well documented. I've been in the boat business (owning and fixing) for 40 years. I've seen my share of "questionable" boats, particularly older sailboats (I have an 1979 Islander Bahama 30). Guys like this seller give the rest of us a rise in heart rate! Its tough enough selling older boats without this sort of fraud. I just found this site, now subscribed! I've done sailing videos, but hadn't thought of this avenue! Keep up the good work!
Excellent warning. The problem is especially valid for those seeking to buy boats at the lower end of the market.. circa $20k to $50k.. A full survey, including lift-out and launch, will represent a substantial expense in relation to the value of the vessel, and these boats are typically where a survey is most required. Anyone struggling to get into owning a boat at this level may very soon discover that they've reduced their purchase power significantly simply owing to the expense of having paid for two or more surveys. If a buyer has only limited experience in owning boats it can make a huge difference if they can find an experienced friend/colleague to accompany them on that first inspection.. The mindset should not be, 'is it worth buying?' it needs to be, 'is it worth the risk of a survey?' Buyer beware.
I couldn’t agree more with what you’ve said here. It’s precisely why I have been going with my friend - he already paid for one survey and the boat was a bust. Today we’re off to look at a 6th boat. The lesson learned was to bring a friend and not throw down for a survey until you’re as close to certain as you can be that the boat is worth it. That might require a few visits to the boat beforehand. Typically a second visit really highlights any issues - if there are any, and you see things in a different light. Thanks for the comments and for watching!
#1: If a boat broker's mouth is moving, he's lying. #2: In my experience Survey dont tell you anything you cant figure out yourself. Its just a formality for insurance. Both my boat survey missed lots of obvious things. I dont even trust Surveys.
I've never seriously looked at buying a sail boat but a similar thing happened to me on an RV. From a quick glance the RV looked pretty good, it was older but looked well cared for. Then I noticed a pin hole in the aluminum skin, actually a lot of pin holes. Looking at it further the pin holes were below a window and kind of went back at about a 45 degree angle from the window opening. When I went inside and looked behind the couch that was below the window there was obvious water damage. What had happened was the seal on the window had let go letting water into the wall and it rotted the wall and corroded the aluminum skin. The moral being pay attention to little details, they tell a story, just like your crack in the bilge. BTW that crack in the bow didn't look superficial to me, it was too wide. Nice catch. Keep the good stuff coming.
A couple of years ago I saw a Westerly Conway offered for sale in a British boatyard. It was a 36ft bilge keeler. except that one of the keels had apparently been ripped off somehow. The vessel had been on a drying mooring, so inevitably it had been completely inundated when the tide came in. You can only guess at the state of the interior, but there was a gaping jagged slot of a hole in the hull about 8ft by 1ft. The missing keel had apparently been recovered. This boat was being advertised as an "easy fix" for £10,000...
As you so pertinently point out , photographs are deceptive , the brokers work is to secure a sale and often are only or mainly paid on commission . And this applies to boats , aircraft , real estate etc. Before arranging to inspect a potential purchase , it helps to ask a number of questions . Whilst the broker may well not commit to any definitive answers at that point , he/ she should be well aware of any existing and potential defects . Great video.
Exactly right. In this case, the broker had just picked up the listing as it had been a for sale by owner. When we toured the boat with him, we knew more about it than he did. Thanks for watching!
As a 69yr old Brit that learnt to sail at me Daddies knee, from his Mirror Sailing dingy(built in our frontroom)to crewing for Cat owners, And holidaying on Flotilla Sailing holidays all over the med, I've sailed clinker built, and plastic built, The wooden ones held together with glue, in a storm at sea, always, left my sphincter muscle aching, But glass fiber bubbles also, So trust a man that say's it's a good boat, Tell him you'll buy it if he'll sail it to Hobart in the race with you, 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The problem is that it’s so easy to be lulled into a view that the sailing boat community is that - a community - it really isn’t I’m afraid. First time I bought (I’m based in the uk) I was like a lamb - I’d turn up full of hope and find something I wouldn’t trust in my bath! Luckily I had automotive experience so a good eye - but the things people said were superficial or would buff out? Crikey! All those boats will I guess have sold, fortunately I found a kindly ex-naval officer getting out of sailing due to age and his meticulous boat was a joy for years - so it’s not all bad!
Same. Our experience buying our Morgan was great. The owner was moving up to a larger boat to take around the world and, by profession, he is/was a systems guy at Bath Iron Works - where he did electrical work, among other things, on Navy Destroyers. So he was fastidious with the work he did on the boat we bought and willing to spend a lot of time with us going over things. We're still in touch with each other. There are good boat people out there!
My 1st boat from a couple, the wife got too wet 1st season and they parked it for years. Darn near new. 2nd boat was from famous racing family it was going to be their 2nd or 3rd of that 1 design. Baby coming, boat sold. 3rd boat was from aging sailor that couldn't single hand it anymore. Lots of upgrades, only blemishes were original factory weak points.
Wow, they definitely ran into something. Not only did they try to pawn it off on you but it's just downright dangerous. If your keel broke, you could be done for.
I live in Maine and once traveled to Florida to view a trimaran, pictures looked ok for a 35yo boat, but the boat shown was not even the same color as the pictures and it only got worse from there. The woman selling had no shame and acted like everything was good. Thankfully the trip to FL had not been special , as in only for the boat, as my wife and I were down to visit my mother and the boat was about 1 hour away.
soon as i saw the water lines and the stress cracks i was thinking it was in a hurricane and got thrashed. regardless they were trying to offload a bad boat.
I would offer him 5 grand, only because i like boat work :) you just need to fully reglass the deck hull joint, drop the keel, replace and rebond the stringers/bulkheads reglass the inevitable stress fractures around the keel pocket, reglass/strengthen the keel pocket and replace the keel, then replace all the port seals and check the deck hardware for bedding issues or damp core. The wet bulkheads could just be the chainplates leaking which would be common on an old boat like this. Also I would never trust that wheel steering so that would all need to be refurbished. My 30 foot boat didn't have any of these issues and i still dropped 20 grand on it.
"Maintained with an open checkbook" is my favorite broker sales wank. And I'm with you on the trust thing- if a red flag pops up on the initial showing, you know there's going to be a ton more found during a survey.
A little putty and paint and that will go away. Seriously, you need to take a close look at the aft top of the keel. A hard grounding that causes damage like that at the front of the hull keel joint will rotate the aft end of the keel up into the hull. That sort of damage is one of the reasons I avoid fin keel boats.
I really like the song with this video...liked the content too! Please provide a link for the song if you can...the credit website for Rose Ganache at the end of the video doesn't include the song. Thanks much!
So, that song, while a parody of Lorde’s “Royals” was created specifically for BoatFools - and it’s not yet complete - just the part you hear in the intro and the end credits. I’m hopeful we’ll have the complete song soon! When we do, we’ll post up a link. Thanks for watching!
A very sobering watch and very instructive. Especially for new sailors who tend to buy with their heart as well as their head. Its many years since I worked in criminal law and that was in the UK. As best as I can recall, we had or now have criminal statutes addressing this kind of offence. Is there anything in federal or state criminal codes that the seller breached? Something like attempting to obtain pecuniary advantage by misrepresentation/fraud/deception? You have documentary evidence. Plus the yard would supply witness statements I'm sure. Not wanting to appear to be complicit. Likewise the broker. Just a thought. Because its not an insignificant sum, when compared to the asking price of the boat.
There probably is but, for us anyway, we only spent our time - no money. Certainly it would be a different story had my buddy invested in a survey or outright purchased the boat... Thanks for watching!
With the huge number of boats out there rotting in yards, people need to stop asking so much for these things. For instance the add for that should have mentioned the hour meter, keel issue and posted it for 10k obo. Your shots 40yrs old with major issues. He'll I wouldn't even pay 10k unless I could fix it myself.
Accidents happen and if you're up front about it especially with a fiberglass boat I believe most damage can be repaired within reason. But you also have to think about when is old too old 40, 50 years? Look at the picture of the boat to the right of the one you're looking at the forward chain plate bolts are rusting and the discoloration is running straight down the front of the bow. Thers nothing wrong with sweat equity so long as you know what your getting into and have the skill set and /or cash to deal with it.
This boat list price was about $29,000 and it was about 32 feet in length. What would be an average cost of a boat survey for this sail boat or a similar 40 year old Sailboat?
I wasn't thinking of a particular boat I wondered about the rough cost. Didn't think about the location. Roughly $1500 does not seem like a lot of money on a $30,000 boat with age but if your shopping and have ordered 2-4 surveys and still haven't found an acceptable boat it does add up.@@boatfools
@@coffeecup3177 agreed. Which is why bringing another knowledgeable person with you as a second set of eyes is ideal - and when you finally land on a boat you think is worthy of a survey, then you pay for one. Ultimately, on older boats you'll need one for insurance purposes anyway. So it will be money well-spent if you end up buying that particular boat. Multiple surveys will definitely get expensive and the buyer is going to get frustrated, to say the least.
The Broker has since dropped the listing to save face and reputation. That boat is worth maybe 6000-8000$ in it current state of disrepair. My guess is a Tidal Grounding and then as she sat heavily heeled over it took on a LOT of water thru Companionway AND thru port hatches. It was likely anchored and dragged and that is the crack under the anchor roller base area. how much you wanna bet ? Ohhh wait , I think there is a VIDEO of the accident online somewhere, unless in a panic they begged the person to delete it. LoL Yep. I encourage EVERYONE to email the owner with an offer around $5000. so he can learn a valuable lesson. Who's in ?
Bella Luna was taken off the market when the keel problem was discovered. Now she’s back on the market with a newly repaired and reinstalled keel and price lowered to $17,900, an amazing buy
great video. Yes I learned the hard way that boat broker are not an once better that a used car salesmen. They just out right lie to make money. I drove from at Atlanta Ga to Miami, Fla. to look at a Freedom 40 and was excited to see it and tour it with dreamy, glorious description on the posting. It was literally falling apart and deck felt like a sponge in a few places, Trust no one! I have learned much since that trip so Inspect the boat yourself first. Then make sure your chosen Boat Surveyor is not only accredited through one of the 3 marine surveyors accreditation organizations but also is knowledgeable and has experience with the manufacturers design and the year bracket of the model you are interested in and having surveyed. Jim Rodgers
I have an Ericson 25. A 32-3 is likely our next boat if we start sailing Erie. That boat is an OK price IF the keel was fine. W discovery of the keel strike and dishonesty about it, I'd absolutely walk away. There are better examples of 32 s out there, maybe with the keel already dropped and rebedded. The seller seems like they are still hoping for an uneducated buyer to come along. That may be the worst part of the story.
You are exactly correct! And, BTW, the 323 is a really sweet boat, just not this one! My buddy was so disappointed. So the search continues. Looking at a CS 36 today and a Sabre 34 next week.
That boat is grossly overpriced in great condition at 29,900$. It is a BUYERS market right now. Covid prices are gone and ALL USED SAILBOATS have dropped an additional 25-30% in the last 12 months. Do Not Pay anyones asking price , trust me. Cut the asking price in half and stand firm. I am a GRATIS (free) buyers broker in the Great Lakes area and only accept Gratuities AFTER the purchaser is very happy with their vessel and how much I save them. I do this for fun and as a hobby. I do this to help and protect NEW boat owners, who are usually the targets of crafty brokers and salty sellers. And nothing brings me more joy than doing an initial survey with the buyer present and watching the seller CRINGE in Hatred for my 30+ years of knowledge haunting his bank account. LoL. SV Hydra SV Jaz - SailPro Marina , Niagara Peninsula. Cheers Folks !
Yeah I've been looking for a boat myself. Lately I've been running into a bunch of people trying to rush the sale. Beware! For example the last guy I spoke with had a Catalina 27 early 80s appeared to be in nice shape. The guy told me the steering cables needed to be tightened and that's all that was wrong. Then kept pushing to meet up for payment. I looked into it and really for the price in comparison it's better to replace the chain and cables. Also with that particular boost it was common that you have to remove the rudder and replace the bearings and seals and so forth which is a lot more than "just tightening cables" I proceed to ask how this guy knew that and when it became an issue and no answer. Crickets. Hmmm..... Pass.
Keel Floor, not stringer?!! Stringers are long structural stiffeners that run most of the length of a vessel, usually well away from the keel area. some yachts have two or even three stringers, the upper ones are in the hull topsides. Keel Floors are deep transverse structural members running internally transverse across the top of the keel. The floors are what gets damaged in a hard grounding. Its misleading, like saying it’s the house walls have a crack, when it’s the foundations. This misleading adverts are common the world over. Get a survey, if unsure get two and get a quote from the yard, show the owner and make an offer, that’s how it works!
My Dad and I built Mach I and Envision Boats in Monmouth Illinois for 36 years. Always physically show up if at all possible or find a Marine Surveyor with a good reputation. When it looks to good to be true, It Is!
A survey is a must and it is money well spent if you are truly interested in the boat. I personally do not care what the broker says or how good the boat looks, it gets a survey if I'm going to pursue the purchase. On a side note, I do not even look at plastic fantastic boats.
@@boatfools The minimum length for me is 28 meters though I prefer over 30 meters. A good survey will save you money both in offer and possible repairs. Though I have no interest in purchasing a 35 foot boat, I still enjoy looking at them and if I was, I would still have it looked at by a professional.
Good advise. Years ago I fell in love with a cheoy Lee ketch. Bought my boat beds with me for the first look. Down below she was a Leekie Teakee. Like a kid about to buy my first candy bar ( one hundred thousand bar). My buddy said I have one thought on this boat-RUN. Very good advice.
It was obvious the keel had been "peeled" back by a hard grounding. When reading, particularly a used boat add I skip over the fluff and stuff...meticulously maintained...upgraded electronics...broker's cream puff...etc. What I particularly guffortle (Chortle/guffaw) at...just completed extensive cruising in Med...Caribbean...etc. Ready to go again...owner completed extensive refit. To me, that is equivalent to saying completed Pan American highway trip in a classic camper. 😅
Good catch. Sobering video. If possible have someone else shoot video of the owner working through the systems. I tried to do this while the boat I eventually bought was being surveyed. I've got an hour of videos clips that are all, "...and then when it's on you do this to turn it off...." Useless. Might be the only time you get a walk through on How Tos.
This is typical and not good. But for the newer sailors, don’t think that if a boat has been aground that it is bad. It is typically nothing more than a little bottom paint scraped. There is a saying “ if you haven’t run aground, you haven’t sailed much”. However. This is Maine and you often don’t hit mud or sand. You hit steep solid ROCK. And with any speed on, this is result. Ouch. I also prefer moulded in keels, not bolt on. Yes you can damage them too but usually the damage is not so wide spread. And if you ever hit something hard, hard. Right away asap go over the side with a mask and check it out to make sure a haul out isn’t necessary
All good points. Again, had the seller been transparent and disclosed the grounding/damage and that it was going to be fixed - the ending could have been different. The deception brought everything into question.
@@boatfools Oh no question. Not right. Eg, I bought a Cal ll-46. Overall in good shape for it’s age. But when I asked the owner about the 7.5 kw diesel generator. He said it was in great shape. He started it, put on some loads ran it for a few minuets and “ see runs great”. After taking possession, I turned on the generator and yes, it ran great,……….for 5 minutes, then overheated and shut down. As I dove into the problem, it turns out that EVERYTHING in that cooing system, both pumps, ALL of the hoses, and the heat exchanger were shot. That was a blatant lie will looking me in the eye. He absolutely had to know. Same with the windlass. Needed a complete rebuild. Sure it ran the anchor down an up a few feet. But that was about all it could do. Oh well. It turned out to be the best of the 5 serous cruising boats that I owned, once I worked out the bugs. Really pretty typical.
Have you done a video on yacht surveyors? My experiences have been mixed, really mixed. The truth is, you're paying for expert advice but there's often very little actual knowledge behind that advice. And, too, if a surveyor dings too many boats, is too thorough, there's a better than even chance that they'll get very few referrals from the brokers. And how do most prospective buyers find a surveyor? By asking the broker. The bottom line is, you are you're own surveyor. If it looks hinky, it probably is hinky.
Boy, are you right - many surveyors are suspect. I've worked with five surveyors (east and west coast) and found only two that seemed good. The last one we used (in Annapolis) was recommended by the broker and turned out to be SELLING us the boat (which had many, many defects) rather than protecting us. Turns out one should never use a surveyor recommended by the broker - we learned the hard way.
The pixelization of the image at 10:51 of the forward part of the keel is an amateur attempt to doctor the photo. Clearly intentional, clearly deceptive.
During the Covid boat buying frenzy I lost a number of potential purchases to people buying sight unseen. In their defense...boats were selling in 24 hrs. Glad that situation is apparently over and in fact...some of those very boats are back on the market. EDIT:...not just a grounding...a HARD grounding.
@@boatfools If it is, it might tend to boost the misrepresentation aspect up a notch. Either way, your video is likely to save boat buyers a lot of heartache in finding the 'right' boat, it certainly opened my eyes.
What you take to be a patch on the keel looks more like a poorly done edit with photoshop. That would be consistent with the other tightly cropped pictures to hide damage.
The expectation that you will buy a 30k boat with no deficiencies is Niev at best. A survey would hopefully discover all of these issues. All of the recent upgrade is irrelevant. There isn’t a boat in that is a good deal, they all suck blood and money. So much arrogance in the sailing world and yacht world…wow someone mis represented a boat?
From the crack I suspect it is a bolt on keel. I also suspect from the cracks shape that if you drilled, you would find a lot of filler, where earlier damage was filled over at least once before. I am surprised you took no oil sample. With that damage, analysis would be wasted money, but at inspection time, it would give the option later for oil analysis. That can tell a lot.
Personally, I would never buy a 40 years old + boat , either wood, fiberglass ( wich rot with the time) , steel, aluminum etc.after 40 years in salt water the core is not anymore sane, the chain plates are rusted and weak, the electrical system has to be replaced , diesel engine life is around 5000 hours and most owners disconnect the hour meter for an extended period of time for a future sale…the tanks, plastic or aluminum are at their life end etc… When you think at the work and money you’ll have to put in to make it safe and seaworthy, you better to invest more money and buy a boat no older than 15-20 years old that has been refit with new rigging, sails, dodger, bimini etc…and it’s a plus if the seller has a maintenance log book well up to date .
But you just never know what you're going to find...Maybe an older boat that's been re-powered and a lot of the work you mention has already been completed...There are gems out there, you just have to look carefully.
It’s always to your advantage to buy used versus new. The work you describe is very rudimentary, and not expensive it done yourself. Rebuilding a marine diesel is a very easy task as well, as these engines are very primitive. Even with all the repairs, you aren’t coming anywhere near the price of a new boats.
So, if the keel had been repaired and the stringer issues fixed etc, would your friend have bought the boat for $10-15k more? Just asking because $30k would have made me wonder in the 1st place what was wrong with it. What does driving 1-1/2 hours to go see it have to do with anything? It was your due diligence to investigate and crossing it off your viable candidate list.
The point of mentioning the hour and a half (3 hrs round trip) was that it was a waste of our time. Had the ad mentioned that there HAD been a grounding and that the boat had been professionally repaired, we could have made an informed decision on whether or not to go look at it or to even put it on the candidate list. But to discover the issue while inspecting the boat (against an ad that stated "excellent condition") called everything else into question about it. The price is irrelevant. It's all about transparency. And, to be clear, the potential buyer had not only spoken to the broker before we made the trek, he had also spoken directly with the seller on several occasions before the visit. Every opportunity was given to disclose the issue - which was known to the seller. The broker gets a hall pass in this case because he had just picked up the listing (based on the glowing ad the seller had on Craigslist). We knew more about the boat than he did when we toured the vessel. I hope that helps clarify!
True. But everything else has now been called into question. Additionally the boatyard said they wouldn’t be able to get to it until the summer of 2024, which means no sailing until summer of 2025. But the real issue is losing confidence in the entire boat…
i would've low balled and offer somewhere under 10k, also as an F u. Probably will end up sitting around until its abandoned and re sold, or the seller realizes the boat is worth far less than 29k.
This isn't really fraud. If they are allowing an inspection then it's the buyers choice. Relying on the hour meter without books and records to back it up is foolish. 288 hours in 40 years? Bwaaahahaha! There's nothing going on here that doesn't happen at thousands of used car lots everyday. I doubt the dealer really understood the extent of the hidden damage anyway. Why would they spend time and money to make the boat worth less? It's buyer beware and the sellers job to make it as appealing as possible. A 40 year old boat that grounded at some point? And this is a surprise? It is not illegal for the prior owner to sell it "as is". $30k is probably on the cheap side if the boat has a glowing survey. There are people out there who can do hull repairs themselves. So they could get a good deal and get it repaired if they wanted. If you believe the boat is worth $35k repaired, an offer in the low twenties would be reasonable. When I sold used cars we had customers come in "I am so frustrated. I have paid inspection fees on 7 cars and they always come back with problems" and here they are inquiring about a 12 year old car that is the cheapest in the paper. I see his friend falling into this trap. 3 rejects in a row. He's doing everything right to find a great boat, except pay for it. He's looking at very old and cheap boats. He has champagne tastes on a beer budget. Expecting a low hours engine, no normal wear like water stains, never been in an accident, an impeccable survey, and all for under $30k? Good luck with that. Fraud would be offering to sell a boat then receiving payment and the boat doesn't exist or doesn't belong to the seller. This story wouldn't hold up in court as fraud. It's buyer beware and the dealer allowed inspection. The condition is subjective. I bet they sell this boat, albeit at a lower price. Why anyone with experience would expect a salesman to know the entire history of a 40 year old boat is beyond me, let alone trust verbal reports.
Even if the boat would have been in a good shape, I would think that $20,000K or less would be a more reasonable price for a almost 40 year old sailboat…..
Hi. I have just Subscribed to your Channel. Wow is all I can say. $10K If your lucky I would say. God there are some dodgy people out there, and playing with people's lives 😢. I love boats but I'm no expert so thank god there are Decent, trustworthy people out there like yourself 👏👏. Respect 100%. If the Owner was at least honest you could come up with some kind of deal. I rechon it got a bad hit for him to be so Unscrupulous and Dodgy. I wouldn't buy a rubber dinghy from this guy. I know it's still Advertised but please try and do something more to let people know the truth somehow. So it looks like we will be chatting again as a new Member of the Channel. Thank you from Ireland 😅😅 🇨🇮🇨🇮
![A Swedish Sailboat SENSATION! This Vindo 40 is a STUNNER at $26,500. Full tour [off market]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KaIB4bfwOzc/mqdefault.jpg)
![This Small SAILBOAT is ACES! A Sea Sprite 28 PROFESSIONALLY REFIT and ready to go at $28k! [SOLD!]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/u8oLBllIUS0/mqdefault.jpg)
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Boats and women will make a man proceed when the red lights are flashing and the gate is closed. Great video
It’s not helped by the large number of sailing channels who sail all over the world yet somehow find that the BEST PICTURE for the thumbnail is always a ‘t and a’ shot of the woman. Lol
Yep!
If the yard manager says its going to cost $10K - you can expect that to increase with all the other hidden issues.
Went to look at a 32' and after the visit I walked around the docks for a while and as I was walking back past the boat the Captain of the boat in the next slip tapped me on the shoulder and told me the bilge ran 24/7 and that a second pump had been used the day before as they were washing the boat (for our visit). That Captain gave me a card of a marine engineer who had surveyed the boat a few months before that cancelled a previous sale. Sailors helping sailors....
The way it should be! Thanks for the comment. Glad someone was there to save you some trouble!
@@boatfools I should mention that I was told the moldy odor below was just because they had washed the boat inside and outside and it hadn't dried out. I believed them . . .
Exactly right. On a beautiful spring day earlier this year, my wife and I drove 3 hrs to look at a “pristine” Nonsuch 22. The broker was there to meet us and looked over our shoulder the entire time we looked this tiny boat over. We were considering it. We too went for lunch, and then went back to look at the boat ourselves with fresh, unaccompanied eyes. Water damage. Check. Hull damage. Check. No motor history. Check. I wrote the broker a note outlining what we saw, and offered a very reasonable 50% of asking, since these boats are rare and don’t come up for sale very often. He told me “Thanks. Good luck with your search”. 6 months later, this boat still sits for sale. Reality is a difficult thing to face. Thanks for the very real video.
That boat is still in the ads ! ! !
One of the main reasons owners use brokers: don't ask, don't tell. Why would anyone use a broker to sell a $30k boat? To hide behind them.
Went from Seattle to Annapolis to look at a 52 foot Cheoy Lee motorsailor that"only needs a valve adjust on the engines" to be ready to sail home. Took less than a minute to find that it was ready to sink. Rudder was rotten, skeg moved an inch when rudder was jiggled by hand meaning core rot, all thru hulls (28) frozen and bright green, deck delammed from hull, new packing glands held on by one clamp, raw water strainers to engines only held in place by the hoses, the list goes on and on. Turns out the beautiful pictures on the web page and the ones the broker sent me were over 15 years old. The boat is still for sale but now has a note adding that the skeg has been repaired. I told the marina that it was in such poor condition that if it was in a duck pond, I would be sitting in the dingy wearing my survival suit and if they put it in the water to leave the travel lift down. Beware of brokers, they LIE. Edit I looked her up on the net and it seems that some poor fool bought her for 180K.
All too common it seems. Unreal! Thanks for sharing and watching!
We all need a friend like you to find these issues.
On the video of the keel it looks like this has been an ongoing problem because it looks like someone has repaired the keel before the last paint that looks like the $2500.00 repair just below the main crack of concern. This is why I’m not a fan of blue antifouling paint; how old is the paint I’ve owned several 1960’s model boats and none have had a blue hue on the water side. My last two had 65% copper surplus paint from the US Navy yard in burnt red, the worms didn’t even like it.
Yeah, if they told me that the boat needed 10k in repairs, I would simply add that amount to purchase price and see if I thought the boat was worth that, but to blatantly hide it, yeah no, I'll pass.
I helped out a friend by surveying a 30 y/o cruising boat with a similar hidden secret. First hint that something was wrong was the way every pic of the boat's interior looked like a staged photoshoot - super clean, everything neatly stowed, tasteful decorations and vases of flowers everywhere. (Flowers? Really?) Boat had been super-detailed; not a spec of dust or dirt anywhere and a super-shiny hull. I could tell just by looking at the ad that somebody was hiding something.
The broker spent the entire time telling my friend about the dream of sailing and focused on accessories, electronics and leisure features of the boat. I finally found the deal-breaker when I stepped back from the stern (it was hauled out) and sighted down the center line. The bottom of the rudder was a good inch or more off center. At some point the boat had grounded hard enough to bend the rudder shaft.
When I pointed this out to the broker he told me I was being too cautious and said "All old cruising boats have a few bumps and bruises" and that "that's an easy fix; 'couple of hundred dollars". At that point I told my friend to walk away and told the broker he was endangering someone's life. Imagine the rudder falling off if you were hundreds of miles offshore in bad weather!
If it hit hard enough to bend a rudder post an inch out what did it do to the rest of the hull the rudder is attached to , i'm guessing a lot of damage that's hard to spot
I made the mistake of trusting my friend's surveys and not getting my own independent survey. Repairs have cost over 2x the initial price over 4yrs. Get a fresh look at what it needs AND what a reasonable price would be. Trusting that survey and my friend's word, I drastically overpaid on the initial price too. However, nothing compares to the insanity and expense of doing the necessary repairs and doing them right (which I have been). Now I'm out of money and the boat is still worth less than 50% of what I paid for it (I've finally had it surveyed after the work). My lesson and what I tell others is to just stay away from boat ownership. Join a club, volunteer to crew for races, rent to your hearts content, but don't buy. No boats. Never. Not even brand new. Never again.
It's not for everyone! And your idea of joining a boat club and/or hopping on a boat as crew is a terrific idea for those folks who think boat ownership is not for them. Plenty of ways to enjoy sailing and time on the water - we call this using OPBs - Other People's Boats.
It’s ironic. I bet I’ve seen those exact ‘photos’ on about 359 boats for sale!🤣
No you have not. They are actual in 2023 of Bella Luna
Yes, buyer beware and get a survey done. In 2005 I was interested in buying a 36' ketch. It had some issues I thought I could live with. The surveyor gave it a fair rating and the boat yard foreman told me it had keel bolts that needed replacing. There was water coming out of the (full) keel drain hole a week after it was hauled out. I got my deposit back and considered the expense of a survey money well spent. Eventually the boat was sold to someone with deep pockets. He had the keel bolts replaced, along with other necessary work. I sent him a copy of the survey after he sailed his ketch to Hawaii. Two years later I bought the same model ketch in San Diego. It had been well maintained. I still have that boat and enjoy sailing it. But I spend 10X the time on maintenance.
Good move! And doing the maintenance is part of the gig.
Lie ,cheat , steal . Some folks just don't give a damn about anything except their money. That is the nicest sentence I could come up with.
Thanks for sharing your vid.👍
You’re correct - and thanks for watching!
A conversation with a broker about an "very good" condition boat:
Is everything stated in the ad accurate?
Yes, 100%.
Ok, I want to arrange a viewing and have only one condition, if there are any lies you will pay our expenses.
I can't do that.
If you're not lying you have nothing to loose, so why not?
Well, there may be issues that we missed in our inspection.
No problem, you're only going to be held financially responsible for the things expressed in the ad.
Krickets.
We knew where the boat was docked so we looked at it without telling anyone, you could tell that it was a recently polished turd from several slips away. Once close up, just from the stuff visible from the dock, it looked like a salvage. To top it off, the shore power breaker was tripped and the bilge pump was very active, it probably wouldn't be long before it was under water unless someone tended to it.
A solid strategy!
The sight of the fore stay would be the point over running for me.
$10,000 for the keel but that off centre fore stay implies the keel is the least of that boats issues
So, that was my instinct, too, though the yard manager said it was "superficial". I disagree. It looked jenky and it was the first thing I saw...which brought my focus to high-alert status for the rest of the boat tour...
Indeed! I was on a friends Pearson 25 this past summer, 15-20 knot wind close hauled where the forestay pulled out of the bow, ripped off a portion of the decking and down came the mast! (No injuries) No surprise it was an old shoddy repair of a stress crack that had allowed water in for years. I will never bypass the seriousness of thoroughly inspecting small cracks in fiberglass!!
Well documented. I've been in the boat business (owning and fixing) for 40 years. I've seen my share of "questionable" boats, particularly older sailboats (I have an 1979 Islander Bahama 30). Guys like this seller give the rest of us a rise in heart rate! Its tough enough selling older boats without this sort of fraud. I just found this site, now subscribed! I've done sailing videos, but hadn't thought of this avenue! Keep up the good work!
Thanks Bert! Agree with your comments. The Islander Bahama 30 is a nice looking ride! Thanks for subscribing!
It seems to be gone from Craigslist Maine now, but is still listed on Facebook Marketplace. Same price, pictures and description.
Yep, and she’s on YachtWorld…
Excellent warning. The problem is especially valid for those seeking to buy boats at the lower end of the market.. circa $20k to $50k.. A full survey, including lift-out and launch, will represent a substantial expense in relation to the value of the vessel, and these boats are typically where a survey is most required. Anyone struggling to get into owning a boat at this level may very soon discover that they've reduced their purchase power significantly simply owing to the expense of having paid for two or more surveys. If a buyer has only limited experience in owning boats it can make a huge difference if they can find an experienced friend/colleague to accompany them on that first inspection.. The mindset should not be, 'is it worth buying?' it needs to be, 'is it worth the risk of a survey?' Buyer beware.
I couldn’t agree more with what you’ve said here. It’s precisely why I have been going with my friend - he already paid for one survey and the boat was a bust. Today we’re off to look at a 6th boat. The lesson learned was to bring a friend and not throw down for a survey until you’re as close to certain as you can be that the boat is worth it. That might require a few visits to the boat beforehand. Typically a second visit really highlights any issues - if there are any, and you see things in a different light. Thanks for the comments and for watching!
@@boatfoolsthis is my exact question. Thanks for the comment and reply.
Considering the extensive damage on the keel it’s amazing the crack visible in the bilge was so small.
That's all I could see - I bet if we'd dug deeper we would have found more!
Keel was removed. Keel bolts were very good. Crack in bilge was not structural and repaired. Keel was reinstalled to spec. Expense was $12k
#1: If a boat broker's mouth is moving, he's lying.
#2: In my experience Survey dont tell you anything you cant figure out yourself. Its just a formality for insurance. Both my boat survey missed lots of obvious things. I dont even trust Surveys.
I agree with you!
I've never seriously looked at buying a sail boat but a similar thing happened to me on an RV. From a quick glance the RV looked pretty good, it was older but looked well cared for. Then I noticed a pin hole in the aluminum skin, actually a lot of pin holes. Looking at it further the pin holes were below a window and kind of went back at about a 45 degree angle from the window opening. When I went inside and looked behind the couch that was below the window there was obvious water damage. What had happened was the seal on the window had let go letting water into the wall and it rotted the wall and corroded the aluminum skin. The moral being pay attention to little details, they tell a story, just like your crack in the bilge. BTW that crack in the bow didn't look superficial to me, it was too wide. Nice catch. Keep the good stuff coming.
Thanks for the cautionary tale - and you are exactly right. The devil is in the details... Thanks for watching!
A couple of years ago I saw a Westerly Conway offered for sale in a British boatyard. It was a 36ft bilge keeler. except that one of the keels had apparently been ripped off somehow. The vessel had been on a drying mooring, so inevitably it had been completely inundated when the tide came in. You can only guess at the state of the interior, but there was a gaping jagged slot of a hole in the hull about 8ft by 1ft. The missing keel had apparently been recovered. This boat was being advertised as an "easy fix" for £10,000...
An "easy fix" - Ha! Thanks for sharing and for watching!
And here it is August, almost September 2024 and this “very well kept” boat is still listed.
Is it really? Ha. Not surprised… Thanks for the comment and for watching.
Boat was taken off market Oct 23. Keel fixed during summer 24 cost $12k and put back on market late August 24 for $17.9k fyi
As you so pertinently point out , photographs are deceptive , the brokers work is to secure a sale and often are only or mainly paid on commission . And this applies to boats , aircraft , real estate etc. Before arranging to inspect a potential purchase , it helps to ask a number of questions . Whilst the broker may well not commit to any definitive answers at that point , he/ she should be well aware of any existing and potential defects . Great video.
Exactly right. In this case, the broker had just picked up the listing as it had been a for sale by owner. When we toured the boat with him, we knew more about it than he did. Thanks for watching!
As a 69yr old Brit that learnt to sail at me Daddies knee, from his Mirror Sailing dingy(built in our frontroom)to crewing for Cat owners, And holidaying on Flotilla Sailing holidays all over the med, I've sailed clinker built, and plastic built, The wooden ones held together with glue, in a storm at sea, always, left my sphincter muscle aching, But glass fiber bubbles also, So trust a man that say's it's a good boat, Tell him you'll buy it if he'll sail it to Hobart in the race with you, 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That's really funny - and a good tactic!
The problem is that it’s so easy to be lulled into a view that the sailing boat community is that - a community - it really isn’t I’m afraid. First time I bought (I’m based in the uk) I was like a lamb - I’d turn up full of hope and find something I wouldn’t trust in my bath! Luckily I had automotive experience so a good eye - but the things people said were superficial or would buff out? Crikey! All those boats will I guess have sold, fortunately I found a kindly ex-naval officer getting out of sailing due to age and his meticulous boat was a joy for years - so it’s not all bad!
Same. Our experience buying our Morgan was great. The owner was moving up to a larger boat to take around the world and, by profession, he is/was a systems guy at Bath Iron Works - where he did electrical work, among other things, on Navy Destroyers. So he was fastidious with the work he did on the boat we bought and willing to spend a lot of time with us going over things. We're still in touch with each other. There are good boat people out there!
My 1st boat from a couple, the wife got too wet 1st season and they parked it for years. Darn near new.
2nd boat was from famous racing family it was going to be their 2nd or 3rd of that 1 design. Baby coming, boat sold.
3rd boat was from aging sailor that couldn't single hand it anymore. Lots of upgrades, only blemishes were original factory weak points.
I don’t think it had been patched as much as it was photo shopped!
You're not the first to say so and I am starting to think you're right! Thanks for watching!
Great singer on the bumper
That's my sister-in-law! She's great and made this just for my show. Thanks for watching!
there are 2 kinds of people : the ones that run aground, the ones that lie about it.
Exactly!
Hahaha
Ericson 35-3 has 13k displacement, minus 5.2k ballast, leaves 7.8k boat. Now how much grounding could this possibly withstand?
Wow, they definitely ran into something. Not only did they try to pawn it off on you but it's just downright dangerous. If your keel broke, you could be done for.
I live in Maine and once traveled to Florida to view a trimaran, pictures looked ok for a 35yo boat, but the boat shown was not even the same color as the pictures and it only got worse from there. The woman selling had no shame and acted like everything was good. Thankfully the trip to FL had not been special , as in only for the boat, as my wife and I were down to visit my mother and the boat was about 1 hour away.
Luckily the trip to FL wasn't just about the boat...that would have been miserable! Can't be too careful!
soon as i saw the water lines and the stress cracks i was thinking it was in a hurricane and got thrashed. regardless they were trying to offload a bad boat.
I would offer him 5 grand, only because i like boat work :) you just need to fully reglass the deck hull joint, drop the keel, replace and rebond the stringers/bulkheads reglass the inevitable stress fractures around the keel pocket, reglass/strengthen the keel pocket and replace the keel, then replace all the port seals and check the deck hardware for bedding issues or damp core. The wet bulkheads could just be the chainplates leaking which would be common on an old boat like this. Also I would never trust that wheel steering so that would all need to be refurbished. My 30 foot boat didn't have any of these issues and i still dropped 20 grand on it.
Keel was replaced at 12k cost now for sale 17.9.
"Maintained with an open checkbook" is my favorite broker sales wank. And I'm with you on the trust thing- if a red flag pops up on the initial showing, you know there's going to be a ton more found during a survey.
That's a good one... And, you're correct!
A little putty and paint and that will go away. Seriously, you need to take a close look at the aft top of the keel. A hard grounding that causes damage like that at the front of the hull keel joint will rotate the aft end of the keel up into the hull. That sort of damage is one of the reasons I avoid fin keel boats.
Apparently that’s what the owner did. The yard reported a bent keel bolt and that the keel needs to come off and then reinstalled…
I really like the song with this video...liked the content too! Please provide a link for the song if you can...the credit website for Rose Ganache at the end of the video doesn't include the song. Thanks much!
So, that song, while a parody of Lorde’s “Royals” was created specifically for BoatFools - and it’s not yet complete - just the part you hear in the intro and the end credits. I’m hopeful we’ll have the complete song soon! When we do, we’ll post up a link. Thanks for watching!
So its just like buying second hand cars!😮
Silly me why did i think boat salesmen were any different.
Thanks great post
Lol. Exactly!
A very sobering watch and very instructive. Especially for new sailors who tend to buy with their heart as well as their head.
Its many years since I worked in criminal law and that was in the UK. As best as I can recall, we had or now have criminal statutes addressing this kind of offence.
Is there anything in federal or state criminal codes that the seller breached?
Something like attempting to obtain pecuniary advantage by misrepresentation/fraud/deception? You have documentary evidence. Plus the yard would supply witness statements I'm sure. Not wanting to appear to be complicit. Likewise the broker.
Just a thought. Because its not an insignificant sum, when compared to the asking price of the boat.
There probably is but, for us anyway, we only spent our time - no money. Certainly it would be a different story had my buddy invested in a survey or outright purchased the boat... Thanks for watching!
Great insight and education. I have watched many boat tour videos, and this is one of few that I actually learned something.
Thank you!
"In God we Trust... all others, we verify" One of my favorite sayings.
Amen!
With the huge number of boats out there rotting in yards, people need to stop asking so much for these things. For instance the add for that should have mentioned the hour meter, keel issue and posted it for 10k obo. Your shots 40yrs old with major issues. He'll I wouldn't even pay 10k unless I could fix it myself.
Exactly. Transparency- then at least you can have a constructive conversation about a path forward.
Accidents happen and if you're up front about it especially with a fiberglass boat I believe most damage can be repaired within reason. But you also have to think about when is old too old 40, 50 years? Look at the picture of the boat to the right of the one you're looking at the forward chain plate bolts are rusting and the discoloration is running straight down the front of the bow. Thers nothing wrong with sweat equity so long as you know what your getting into and have the skill set and /or cash to deal with it.
Agreed. Being transparent is the key. Would have been a different story…
My GRP sailboat was built in 1970. C&C36R, only 2 made...going to last another 54 years.
That's why you always lift the boat out before buying and you look very closely.
This boat list price was about $29,000 and it was about 32 feet in length. What would be an average cost of a boat survey for this sail boat or a similar 40 year old Sailboat?
In the Maine market it will cost around $1,500 +/-. Where is the boat?
I wasn't thinking of a particular boat I wondered about the rough cost. Didn't think about the location. Roughly $1500 does not seem like a lot of money on a $30,000 boat with age but if your shopping and have ordered 2-4 surveys and still haven't found an acceptable boat it does add up.@@boatfools
@@coffeecup3177 agreed. Which is why bringing another knowledgeable person with you as a second set of eyes is ideal - and when you finally land on a boat you think is worthy of a survey, then you pay for one. Ultimately, on older boats you'll need one for insurance purposes anyway. So it will be money well-spent if you end up buying that particular boat. Multiple surveys will definitely get expensive and the buyer is going to get frustrated, to say the least.
The Broker has since dropped the listing to save face and reputation.
That boat is worth maybe
6000-8000$ in it current state of disrepair.
My guess is a Tidal Grounding and then as she sat heavily heeled over it took on a LOT of water thru Companionway AND thru port hatches. It was likely anchored and dragged and that is the crack under the anchor roller base area.
how much you wanna bet ?
Ohhh wait , I think there is a VIDEO of the accident online somewhere, unless in a panic they begged the person to delete it.
LoL
Yep.
I encourage EVERYONE to email the owner with an offer around $5000. so he can learn a valuable lesson.
Who's in ?
You're probably correct!
Checking on the listing now - I hope you're right!
That last pic at 11:00 seems photoshopped. more likely than repaired and then grounded again.
Bella Luna was taken off the market when the keel problem was discovered. Now she’s back on the market with a newly repaired and reinstalled keel and price lowered to $17,900, an amazing buy
great video. Yes I learned the hard way that boat broker are not an once better that a used car salesmen. They just out right lie to make money. I drove from at Atlanta Ga to Miami, Fla. to look at a Freedom 40 and was excited to see it and tour it with dreamy, glorious description on the posting. It was literally falling apart and deck felt like a sponge in a few places, Trust no one! I have learned much since that trip so Inspect the boat yourself first. Then make sure your chosen Boat Surveyor is not only accredited through one of the 3 marine surveyors accreditation organizations but also is knowledgeable and has experience with the manufacturers design and the year bracket of the model you are interested in and having surveyed. Jim Rodgers
Agree with your comment. Can't be too careful! Thanks for watching!
I have an Ericson 25. A 32-3 is likely our next boat if we start sailing Erie. That boat is an OK price IF the keel was fine. W discovery of the keel strike and dishonesty about it, I'd absolutely walk away. There are better examples of 32 s out there, maybe with the keel already dropped and rebedded. The seller seems like they are still hoping for an uneducated buyer to come along. That may be the worst part of the story.
You are exactly correct! And, BTW, the 323 is a really sweet boat, just not this one! My buddy was so disappointed. So the search continues. Looking at a CS 36 today and a Sabre 34 next week.
That boat is grossly overpriced in great condition at 29,900$. It is a BUYERS market right now. Covid prices are gone and ALL USED SAILBOATS have dropped an additional 25-30% in the last 12 months.
Do Not Pay anyones asking price , trust me.
Cut the asking price in half and stand firm.
I am a GRATIS (free) buyers broker in the Great Lakes area and only accept Gratuities AFTER the purchaser is very happy with their vessel and how much I save them. I do this for fun and as a hobby. I do this to help and protect NEW boat owners, who are usually the targets of crafty brokers and salty sellers. And nothing brings me more joy than doing an initial survey with the buyer present and watching the seller CRINGE in Hatred for my 30+ years of knowledge haunting his bank account.
LoL.
SV Hydra
SV Jaz
- SailPro Marina , Niagara Peninsula.
Cheers Folks !
Best way to avoid problems is don't buy a boat.
this is why we wanted to see our boat pulled & up on the hard so we could fully inspect the hull , etc , etc
EXACTLY!
Irony is that a decent insurance policy would usually pay for repairs. But only to the insured and not a new owner.
Exactly. Thanks for watching!
Un real, what a putz the owner is ..!
Yeah I've been looking for a boat myself. Lately I've been running into a bunch of people trying to rush the sale. Beware! For example the last guy I spoke with had a Catalina 27 early 80s appeared to be in nice shape. The guy told me the steering cables needed to be tightened and that's all that was wrong. Then kept pushing to meet up for payment. I looked into it and really for the price in comparison it's better to replace the chain and cables. Also with that particular boost it was common that you have to remove the rudder and replace the bearings and seals and so forth which is a lot more than "just tightening cables" I proceed to ask how this guy knew that and when it became an issue and no answer. Crickets. Hmmm..... Pass.
Yep.
Nothing special about a dodgy advert they are everywhere. It’s simple - “Let your eyes be your guide and your money the last thing you part with”.
Keel Floor, not stringer?!! Stringers are long structural stiffeners that run most of the length of a vessel, usually well away from the keel area. some yachts have two or even three stringers, the upper ones are in the hull topsides. Keel Floors are deep transverse structural members running internally transverse across the top of the keel. The floors are what gets damaged in a hard grounding. Its misleading, like saying it’s the house walls have a crack, when it’s the foundations. This misleading adverts are common the world over. Get a survey, if unsure get two and get a quote from the yard, show the owner and make an offer, that’s how it works!
You are correct - it is the floor beam that runs between the stringers that is damaged. And, yep, a hard grounding is likely to damage these.
My Dad and I built Mach I and Envision Boats in Monmouth Illinois for 36 years. Always physically show up if at all possible or find a Marine Surveyor with a good reputation. When it looks to good to be true, It Is!
100%
A survey is a must and it is money well spent if you are truly interested in the boat. I personally do not care what the broker says or how good the boat looks, it gets a survey if I'm going to pursue the purchase. On a side note, I do not even look at plastic fantastic boats.
A survey is a must. What kinds of boats do you look at?!?
@@boatfools The minimum length for me is 28 meters though I prefer over 30 meters. A good survey will save you money both in offer and possible repairs. Though I have no interest in purchasing a 35 foot boat, I still enjoy looking at them and if I was, I would still have it looked at by a professional.
Good advise. Years ago I fell in love with a cheoy Lee ketch. Bought my boat beds with me for the first look. Down below she was a Leekie Teakee. Like a kid about to buy my first candy bar ( one hundred thousand bar). My buddy said I have one thought on this boat-RUN. Very good advice.
Great story! Yes, so easy to fall in love….
It was obvious the keel had been "peeled" back by a hard grounding. When reading, particularly a used boat add I skip over the fluff and stuff...meticulously maintained...upgraded electronics...broker's cream puff...etc. What I particularly guffortle (Chortle/guffaw) at...just completed extensive cruising in Med...Caribbean...etc. Ready to go again...owner completed extensive refit. To me, that is equivalent to saying completed Pan American highway trip in a classic camper. 😅
Sailing is the most expensive way to trave as you’re likely to find.
Good catch. Sobering video. If possible have someone else shoot video of the owner working through the systems. I tried to do this while the boat I eventually bought was being surveyed. I've got an hour of videos clips that are all, "...and then when it's on you do this to turn it off...." Useless. Might be the only time you get a walk through on How Tos.
Excellent point. I took copious notes and followed along with a label maker... Video would be ideal. Thanks for watching!
This is typical and not good. But for the newer sailors, don’t think that if a boat has been aground that it is bad. It is typically nothing more than a little bottom paint scraped. There is a saying “ if you haven’t run aground, you haven’t sailed much”. However. This is Maine and you often don’t hit mud or sand. You hit steep solid ROCK. And with any speed on, this is result. Ouch. I also prefer moulded in keels, not bolt on. Yes you can damage them too but usually the damage is not so wide spread. And if you ever hit something hard, hard. Right away asap go over the side with a mask and check it out to make sure a haul out isn’t necessary
All good points. Again, had the seller been transparent and disclosed the grounding/damage and that it was going to be fixed - the ending could have been different. The deception brought everything into question.
@@boatfools Oh no question. Not right. Eg, I bought a Cal ll-46. Overall in good shape for it’s age. But when I asked the owner about the 7.5 kw diesel generator. He said it was in great shape. He started it, put on some loads ran it for a few minuets and “ see runs great”. After taking possession, I turned on the generator and yes, it ran great,……….for 5 minutes, then overheated and shut down. As I dove into the problem, it turns out that EVERYTHING in that cooing system, both pumps, ALL of the hoses, and the heat exchanger were shot. That was a blatant lie will looking me in the eye. He absolutely had to know. Same with the windlass. Needed a complete rebuild. Sure it ran the anchor down an up a few feet. But that was about all it could do. Oh well. It turned out to be the best of the 5 serous cruising boats that I owned, once I worked out the bugs. Really pretty typical.
Moral of the story - don’t let your heart overrule your head.
100%!
Have you done a video on yacht surveyors? My experiences have been mixed, really mixed. The truth is, you're paying for expert advice but there's often very little actual knowledge behind that advice.
And, too, if a surveyor dings too many boats, is too thorough, there's a better than even chance that they'll get very few referrals from the brokers. And how do most prospective buyers find a surveyor? By asking the broker.
The bottom line is, you are you're own surveyor. If it looks hinky, it probably is hinky.
I haven't yet - but I tend to agree with you. I've seen some surveys that are downright laughable.
Boy, are you right - many surveyors are suspect. I've worked with five surveyors (east and west coast) and found only two that seemed good. The last one we used (in Annapolis) was recommended by the broker and turned out to be SELLING us the boat (which had many, many defects) rather than protecting us. Turns out one should never use a surveyor recommended by the broker - we learned the hard way.
The pixelization of the image at 10:51 of the forward part of the keel is an amateur attempt to doctor the photo. Clearly intentional, clearly deceptive.
During the Covid boat buying frenzy I lost a number of potential purchases to people buying sight unseen. In their defense...boats were selling in 24 hrs. Glad that situation is apparently over and in fact...some of those very boats are back on the market.
EDIT:...not just a grounding...a HARD grounding.
Looks like the boat has been grounded on the hard, hard bottom of Maine.
The hard and unforgiving bottom of the Maine coast…
10:52 ''patched before''
That looks to me like it 'could be'
the 'blend' tool in photo shop,
or similar program, and not even excellent work. shrugs
Yes, the more I look at that pic the more I agree with you…
@@boatfools
If it is, it might tend to boost the
misrepresentation aspect up a notch.
Either way, your video is likely to
save boat buyers a lot of
heartache in finding the 'right' boat,
it certainly opened my eyes.
Never buy a used boat unless you are ready to work on it! And work on it yourself
What you take to be a patch on the keel looks more like a poorly done edit with photoshop. That would be consistent with the other tightly cropped pictures to hide damage.
If it sounds too good to be true, its probably not true.
7:48 It was running aground. Nothing unusual.
10:55 I guess they run aground again.
The expectation that you will buy a 30k boat with no deficiencies is Niev at best. A survey would hopefully discover all of these issues. All of the recent upgrade is irrelevant. There isn’t a boat in that is a good deal, they all suck blood and money. So much arrogance in the sailing world and yacht world…wow someone mis represented a boat?
What do you expect from a 40 years boat for 30K ? Of course that's a project boat and not a turnkey.
I would not buy a sailboat in the water..
From the crack I suspect it is a bolt on keel. I also suspect from the cracks shape that if you drilled, you would find a lot of filler, where earlier damage was filled over at least once before. I am surprised you took no oil sample. With that damage, analysis would be wasted money, but at inspection time, it would give the option later for oil analysis. That can tell a lot.
Ericson dont have bolt on keels you dummy.
Personally, I would never buy a 40 years old + boat , either wood, fiberglass ( wich rot with the time) , steel, aluminum etc.after 40 years in salt water the core is not anymore sane, the chain plates are rusted and weak, the electrical system has to be replaced , diesel engine life is around 5000 hours and most owners disconnect the hour meter for an extended period of time for a future sale…the tanks, plastic or aluminum are at their life end etc…
When you think at the work and money you’ll have to put in to make it safe and seaworthy, you better to invest more money and buy a boat no older than 15-20 years old that has been refit with new rigging, sails, dodger, bimini etc…and it’s a plus if the seller has a maintenance log book well up to date .
But you just never know what you're going to find...Maybe an older boat that's been re-powered and a lot of the work you mention has already been completed...There are gems out there, you just have to look carefully.
It’s always to your advantage to buy used versus new. The work you describe is very rudimentary, and not expensive it done yourself. Rebuilding a marine diesel is a very easy task as well, as these engines are very primitive. Even with all the repairs, you aren’t coming anywhere near the price of a new boats.
@@mangore623 especially when new boats start at $300,000...
I took up building my own boats, since I couldn't find a Clorox bottle that was good enough. Do you really want to sail around in plastic junk?
Thanks for this video!!
Thanks for watching!
So, if the keel had been repaired and the stringer issues fixed etc, would your friend have bought the boat for $10-15k more? Just asking because $30k would have made me wonder in the 1st place what was wrong with it. What does driving 1-1/2 hours to go see it have to do with anything? It was your due diligence to investigate and crossing it off your viable candidate list.
The point of mentioning the hour and a half (3 hrs round trip) was that it was a waste of our time. Had the ad mentioned that there HAD been a grounding and that the boat had been professionally repaired, we could have made an informed decision on whether or not to go look at it or to even put it on the candidate list. But to discover the issue while inspecting the boat (against an ad that stated "excellent condition") called everything else into question about it. The price is irrelevant. It's all about transparency. And, to be clear, the potential buyer had not only spoken to the broker before we made the trek, he had also spoken directly with the seller on several occasions before the visit. Every opportunity was given to disclose the issue - which was known to the seller. The broker gets a hall pass in this case because he had just picked up the listing (based on the glowing ad the seller had on Craigslist). We knew more about the boat than he did when we toured the vessel. I hope that helps clarify!
Thank you. Really good video
Thanks for watching, Leif! And thanks for your comment.
Maybe you should give up on 40 year old Eriksons. Or 40 year old anything, and liars.
We'll give up on liars, for sure. Forty year old boats? Not a chance. A) budget B) there are some awesome boats out there just waiting to be found!
It's like she was well maintained until the last owner crashed it.
That crack, if the keel fails, could easily get folks killed when the boat turtles.
Where is this place people are learning to work on boats?
I’ll find out and report back.
It's proof that the three sailors did have an experience: with the ground
lol!
Who buys a boat without a survey? Those things would easily be seen in a survey, He is just wasting everybody's time.
Good information. Good to know.
Thank you for watching!
Excellent video. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for watching!
Could offer the guy 15 -20 grand and hope it's still a good deal.?
True. But everything else has now been called into question. Additionally the boatyard said they wouldn’t be able to get to it until the summer of 2024, which means no sailing until summer of 2025. But the real issue is losing confidence in the entire boat…
i would've low balled and offer somewhere under 10k, also as an F u. Probably will end up sitting around until its abandoned and re sold, or the seller realizes the boat is worth far less than 29k.
Yep!
Come on, Catalina owners know of the smile. I understand, this may only be a serious issues on other brands
Ha! So true! It was the smile in conjunction with the cracked floor framing member that made it really stand out as an issue… Thanks for watching!
This isn't really fraud. If they are allowing an inspection then it's the buyers choice. Relying on the hour meter without books and records to back it up is foolish. 288 hours in 40 years? Bwaaahahaha!
There's nothing going on here that doesn't happen at thousands of used car lots everyday. I doubt the dealer really understood the extent of the hidden damage anyway. Why would they spend time and money to make the boat worth less?
It's buyer beware and the sellers job to make it as appealing as possible. A 40 year old boat that grounded at some point? And this is a surprise? It is not illegal for the prior owner to sell it "as is". $30k is probably on the cheap side if the boat has a glowing survey. There are people out there who can do hull repairs themselves. So they could get a good deal and get it repaired if they wanted.
If you believe the boat is worth $35k repaired, an offer in the low twenties would be reasonable.
When I sold used cars we had customers come in "I am so frustrated. I have paid inspection fees on 7 cars and they always come back with problems" and here they are inquiring about a 12 year old car that is the cheapest in the paper.
I see his friend falling into this trap. 3 rejects in a row. He's doing everything right to find a great boat, except pay for it. He's looking at very old and cheap boats. He has champagne tastes on a beer budget. Expecting a low hours engine, no normal wear like water stains, never been in an accident, an impeccable survey, and all for under $30k? Good luck with that.
Fraud would be offering to sell a boat then receiving payment and the boat doesn't exist or doesn't belong to the seller.
This story wouldn't hold up in court as fraud. It's buyer beware and the dealer allowed inspection. The condition is subjective. I bet they sell this boat, albeit at a lower price. Why anyone with experience would expect a salesman to know the entire history of a 40 year old boat is beyond me, let alone trust verbal reports.
Even if the boat would have been in a good shape, I would think that $20,000K or less would be a more reasonable price for a almost 40 year old sailboat…..
"If it floats, it boats" just not sure for how long.
Ha! Too true!
Blatant deception.
Great advice. I think so many people must get done-over, and thence dissolutioned with boat-life.
You’re not wrong!
Hi. I have just Subscribed to your Channel. Wow is all I can say. $10K If your lucky I would say. God there are some dodgy people out there, and playing with people's lives 😢. I love boats but I'm no expert so thank god there are Decent, trustworthy people out there like yourself 👏👏. Respect 100%. If the Owner was at least honest you could come up with some kind of deal. I rechon it got a bad hit for him to be so Unscrupulous and Dodgy. I wouldn't buy a rubber dinghy from this guy. I know it's still Advertised but please try and do something more to let people know the truth somehow. So it looks like we will be chatting again as a new Member of the Channel. Thank you from Ireland 😅😅 🇨🇮🇨🇮
Welcome aboard and thanks for your comments! Sorry for the delayed response!