So, TH-cam comments is a rough place to have detailed discussions of things like really breaking down F2P/Hybrid/Box+Sub models and all variances thereof. So not gonna dive down that rabbit hole. But, speaking to FFXIV specifically, there is one thing that (while I have a blast in the game) I think was missed as a big point. And, honestly a lot of folks miss it, especially if they're more casual players. Retainers. Specifically, paying for *more* of them. Retainers are not just automated fetch NPCs, they are also your combined bank/auction house capacity. So not only do high level retainers bring in potentially very valuable items from their Ventures, they also determine how much storage you have for those items and how many items in their storage you can have up for sale at any given time. This loop is directly tied to the core of making Gil ingame, and that in turn drives things like your ability to bid stupid amounts for a house, buy rare materials from the AH, etc. Your capacity as a leveled or decently-leveled character to bring in money is tied *very* heavily to your Retainers. And, if you may more per month, you can have additional retainers. It's an add-on to your sub. Pay a couple of bucks more per month? You now have 3 combined gatherer/banker/auctioneer NPCs working for you rather than the default 2. I touched on it when we played FFXIV and then did our breakdown/thoughts, and it was telling that very few people in the group noticed/knew about that, or had put that particular 2 and 2 together. It's almost sneaky in that it's not at all obvious on the surface just how much you can boost your money-making by paying more per month.
@@Redbeardflynn A lot of people aren't: it's not even something you do from the normal cash shop where you'd buy Fantasias etc. It's done from the add-ons section of your sub setup (which is a totally different site/interface, thanks Squeenix) which just further obscures it from people who are just looking to get in and play. So intentionally or not, it makes it even more "If you know, you know and can get a leg up" thing. Don't get me wrong, you can get the game (or even start with the very content-heavy trial) and have a blast playing. There's a ton of value for even the basic 1-character monthly sub. But if you're playing the econ game, your wallet absolutely sets your limits.
I feel everyone playing Final Fantasy XIV knows about this... But like, while it's all true on paper, I feel a lot of the people who are rich got rich by hording money and selling items single big ticket items. Unless your endgame is glamour and/or housing. you're going to be sitting on a mountain of gil you don't use.
Thought provoking video. My own definition of Pay 2 Win was typically if a game allowed you to purchase better gear than you could obtain from work in the game (grinding tomes , raids, crafting, etc.) or locked significant benefits behind a paywall (Rift’s earring slots). I can say that to the XIV boosts giving 500k gil, it may sound like a lot of money, but it’s not truly. As each patch that updates the crafted gear to catch up to the previous patch raid gear is released the crafters are making Bank when that patch launches. In the economy of the Crystal DC 500k might buy you a main piece of gear (chest or legs) with maybe enough change left to get a small piece (gloves or a helm). Micro-transactions like glams, mounts, minions, emotes. Nah those aren’t going anywhere. The most common complaints I hear regarding them in the XIV community is for glamour armors being gender-locked, the item being undyeable, or that the entire look is fixed to a single gear slot (usually chest) instead of separate pieces for mix&match. The last time I can remember a debate about their existence was the introduction of the two seater Cruise Chaser mount in the store. Some vehemently argued this should have been a reward for the Alexander Ultimate raid. The regional promos for XIV also stir up hard feelings but nothing so far community breaking. I will add a “micro” transaction that did put me off a game was before WoW updated their character models. Instead of giving players one free redesign if you didn’t like how the graphic changes altered your character’s appearance, Blizzard said we would just have to shell out the money for each character we wanted to fix. For my 22 characters over two accounts that was just a final straw.
I agree I am not sure how you win. The fun is getting gear. I don't see a point in rushing or paying to play. Even Pl seems like a waste of what could be a fun time
As long as it's not predatory or breaks the game, I don't really see the problem with p2w (at least from the ff14 perspective, Wow and everquest seem like another story)
most players in FFxiv do not buy the level and story skips.Players who do use those services are the folks who just raid and use cheats or buy raid ready accounts.They don't care about the story or the community they only care about raid content...I wonder if the Tarkov wiggle can be done in FFxiv as well?
I think it depends a bit on what definition of pay to win you use. The one I usually think of is acquiring meaningful advantages that you can not possibly acquire by simply playing. Forexample, you can buy a level skip and it can give you the best gear from the last expac and some money, it wont be Pay to Win by that definition, because you can acquire levels by playing, you can get the exact gear by playing, and you can get money by playing. You have received zero advantages that you couldn't get by playing normally. The moment you get an item that has just 1 more stat point than the max of any regular player though, say your best in slot raid reward gear has 205 STR and you can buy a set with 206, that then becomes pay to win.
I don't care as long as playing the game isn't paywalled. i.e. in order to kill boss # 5/10 in raid X you need to have 200+ fire resistance. Pay money to get 200+ fire resistance or grind for 10 years. That's effectively paywalled. It would be fine if it was like. You can buy this starter gear for 5 dollars and it will last you till you start getting gear from the first couple of dungeons but the starter gear is really not needed unless you are that bad at playing video games (yes, I'm that bad). Most games have starting quest lines that get you this starter gear now. So it's not a big deal. But I died so many times on my Palidan cause I could only ever find leather gear in crushbone. I never made it past level 14. And I'd die so much and de-level so many times. Now I'm not that bad, but I would have definitely paid for a starter set of gear back in 1999. So, really I am against pay to win, but pro, pay to die less and de-level less in the starting areas of the game.
I would say that would have come in with Krono, right? After all you can't buy your Epic from Daybreak, you'd have to pay players to help you through it which exists in every game, the difference being you can do it now by paying real money for Krono then converting it to Platinum or trading them directly.
Hell, I tried playing the Mischief server TLP. RMT "players" are even in regular player guilds. Because people with 6 accounts can still make more platinum in a 2 hour raid than they can soloing non-bosses with a box army. Krono straight up ruined the EverQuest player experience. Lacking gear in EQ nowadays doesn't make people think you're a gamer. People regard you as poor IRL. Hard to escape your crappy life of poverty in a game where you're reminded of your real life poverty. I'm not saying I'm impoverished, but games like EQ sure do remind me I'm NO WEALTHY. That's an uncomfortable biproduct of a pay to win MMO.
MMOs have been pay to win since MMOs were invented. The problem is gold / plat selling websites existed with these MMOs. Pay real money on these websites, and get in game currency traded to you. You then trade in game currency for in game items from other players. Players have been selling raid drops for in game currency ever since raids were a thing. Which is pretty much forever. If you think MMOs actually banned players for using these sites you are delusional. I know because I've done it myself. My friends / guild mates have done this as well. None of us were ever banned. Some MMOs just got smart enough to realize they could make this website selling currency stuff money for themselves by introducing things like WoW tokens and Kronos. The big bad pay to win is when they started adding gear and exp potions. They inflate the exp in these games by insane amounts to force you to need to buy these damn exp potions. I get the feeling they learned this from cellphone app games. Make these games restricted, very restricted. Then sell ways to unlock things faster. Selling "perks" is just another version of this as well. You pay for convenience.
You should check out guild wars 2, I just started and it seems most stuff can be bought with in game money. No sub, ftp model but more stuff if you buy the game and expansions.
GW2 is great. Actually did a video not too long ago on how well that game was doing last year. They've got a pretty solid monetization model, one of the best imo.
As a long time WoW player (2008) and more recently FFXIV player (2021), a couple thoughts... They both offer level boosts, but it only boosts you to the starting level for the current expansion, where you still need to quest through and level up based on the range for the current XPAC. This enables new players to start and play with friends in current content. There is no good reason to force players to play through the last 10-20 years of content to just jump into the current evolution of the game. WoW is definitely much faster to level through as it has been optimized a bit and unlike FFXIV isn't as dependent on finishing MSQ for unlocking content. (Dungeons/Raids, etc) That is why FFXIV has a separate option to clear the MSQ. For those who haven't played FFXIV, the MSQ required to bring you up to the start of Endwalker (Current XPAC) was over 800 storyline quests, no optional or side quests, just main scenario. It took me from June until Oct playing heavily to progress through it (watching cutscenes and everything). That is a serious barrier to entry for new players that want to join their friends. The WoW token definitely opens the door to P2W, because I can buy as many as I want to farm up a ton of gold to pay for items and carries. (Or GDKPs in Classic) Retainers in FFXIV are the main area where they might verge into P2W, as they do add extra storage space (on top of the 500 storage slots you get for free w/ 2 retainers, chocobo saddle bag, and inventory) That also doesn't include the armory chest for gear storage, glamor dresser, armoire, and any FC storage. It also enables you to sell concurrently more items on the market board. However, sending them out to gather stuff costs another currency that you would need to farm up and supply, so that's a mixed bag. However, at the end of the day, WoW token does provide a much more direct path to P2W gearing. I have yet to find a way that the payment options in FFXIV that really increase my gear level at all without significant additional work. It's just a bit more convenient to have extra storage, so you aren't spending as much time cleaning out the old crap you stashed away for no good reason, other than being a hoarder. Everyone draws the line in a different place about P2W, mine is something that will enable me to accelerate my progression along the power curve of current content much faster than I otherwise could. E.g. Lost Ark
The only MMO I would play is the one that sticks to firm equal for all pay model. $20 per month is nothing for something I really like. Too bad there hasn't been a game like that for a while. A model that is free to play but sells cosmetics only, that do not affect gameplay is also fine.
Ngl I wouldn't even consider Final Fantasy as a "Pay to Win" game. The boosts for MSQ / Level things are things you can achive super fast regardless without spending money. It will never give you an advantage over players not buying it. Pay to win for me is when you are spending real money into something which other players cant obtain so you have a clear advantage over them. This clearly is never the case for any purchase you do in Final Fantasy. Imo skipping the level part or even the Mainquest of an MMO is just not right, because you bought this game to play it and not instantly skip half or even more of the games playtime.
I think it's always irked me a bit more in FFXIV that they have the story skip you can pay for especially when so much of FFXIV is built on story. To each their own but it just feels different than say, a boost to play with your friends because the game is all about end-game.
@@Redbeardflynn It's because the MSQ in FFXIV gates access to so many things. If you don't have an MSQ skip option, you end up with a level 80 character that can't access 80% of the dungeons, trials, or raids in the game.
I really just don't see how you can mechanically justify any of the FFXIV systems as P2W. Skipping the MSQ on your first playthrough is just ridiculous, and that MSQ gives you several level capped characters worth of exp, not to mention notably more gil than what's included in the skip. It only has any real value for players wanting to instantly generate a ready to go alt, i.e. they don't acquire anything they didn't already have. Even the much maligned retainers amplify existing gil making strategies at the very worst, and there's vanishingly few uses for that gil. You can't get hard carried through new hard content because it's built to require all 8 players, so any additional gil is of questionable value. If you still have to do your part, then you're just raiding... At the very most, you can buy crafted gear with full melds, but the gear is weighted to be worse than the gear you get from the new raid tier it launches aside... What exactly is a big wallet supposed to get you here?
@@Redbeardflynn FWIW your opinion lines up with YoshiP, he didn't want them in the game; they only put those skips in there because people kept asking for them (and presumably corporate was glaring at them to take the free money). Honestly outside of making alts on other servers I've never seen any point to skips in 14, everything in the game is designed around you playing the story and naturally leveling that way. The one exception I can think of is when the two big wow guilds came to try out the raids as a stunt, and that's such a niche circumstance I'm not sure it's worth thinking about.
Former EQ/EQ2, WoW player that currently plays SWTOR. I would define pay to win as being able to buy something that is equal to or better than what you can manage in the game. Level boosts are something I am not interested in as getting to that level is most of the fun. If someone wants to buy that and some crappy armor for that level (like the SWTOR boost) more power to them. If it's just cosmetic items that are being bought I don't have an issue with that. Now back in the day I remember people selling their account for real world money, while SOE turned a blind eye and that I didn't like one bit. And yep I witnesses that from guildies that took buyouts.
Yes it is pay to win. And it's all based around the Krono. still have hundreds of Kronos from selo and mischief. It's sad it's the currency but I'm gonna keep saving for a PvP TLP ;)
If people wish to buy a different look from a cash shop that is fine by me. As long as I have the option to buy a toggle to turn it off. This way they can look and roll play as they wish as I also have the same option for a price to turn it all off. This will bring in a source of additional income to the Devs. while keeping those that do and do not want look at transmog outfits. Guild Wars 2 is also known as Fashion Wars many people will pay good money to look good same go's for ingame houses in some games. You can use in game currency /gold to buy gems to then buy items from the Black Lions Trading Company. Let them have the cosmetic cash shop just have toggles ready for those of us that choose not to look at that ah stuff. ✌
Sadly no. I don't think any new MMO will come out with out the Krono/game time token . I would love to play a game where you can't buy gold and use gold to buy your SoD or MoT or buy arena carries but the truth is this only pushes ebayers to other websites to just buy the gold. There really is no way around this. :( So of course EQ or wow is gonna sell you it instead of losing all that money to a third party site. I did have some ideas on how to fix this issue but might only make things worse. I thought it would be cool to just reset all gold/plat. Invest in items then have something reset every quarter add more currency dumps and people just invest before the reset. It would but I mean lots of currency unlocks so much that your not even expected to unlock them all
I really do not mind the transmog, pets, mounts, toys being in a real money store if it means lower sub cost or no cost. I really dislike that EQ offers the game "Free", when it is definitely not. I was super excited about it when i heard that, but because I had more than the alloted 4 "free" slots, I could not make a new character and most of my other characters were above the level range of being able to actually progress with them for "free", so I really couldn't do anything. I'd have to delete 3 characters to make a new one that I could actually play or what I ended up doing not too long after which is sub for a month, create a couple new characters to try out when the sub went away and play those characters a little bit for "free". One of them was fun, the other not so much and eventually I got to the point of not wanting to play those and just wanting to play my real characters and I ended up just not subbing again. I have a friend who likes to krono farm on new servers and he will occasionally toss me a krono for some game time(he literally doesn't do anything else, except play a gnome mage and just solo to max level, get about 5-10 krono and he ends up quitting around the time kunark comes out or before. It's an odd playstyle because he HATES grouping, doesn't like the social party or guild aspect of the game either. He's, different I suppose whereas I really like the social aspect of being in a guild and partying. Sorry, long winded story, I miss EQ, but I am currently playing Dragonflight. it's really a weird thing. I logged onto EQ the other week just to check it out and I felt more welcome in my old guild than I do in my current WoW guild. I've been in the EQ guild since they were raiding Dragons of Norrath which was really fun (looked it up, 2005) and I have been in my WoW guild since Cata (looked it up, 2010). I know I have spent WAAAAAAY more time in WoW since 2005 and definitely since 2010. Edit: If EQ was actually FTP I would probably be playing it all the time, or at least more than I am playing WoW now. I am mostly indifferent about level boosts to just below the max level. It's not for me, but I think you should have to have a max level character in order to purchase it.
I hate this video :( Thanks for making it. having played all of these games since launch and seeing the creeping cancer that is monetisation, documented in chronological order makes me sad. It's 2023 and I'm still playing project 1999 because I hate all this crap so much. Let us hope that Pantheon arrives soon and it is sub fee only.
Micro transactions aren't going anywhere because of the high ROI. doesn't cost much to make the shop item, and the money that can be made is too worth it for the companies to ignore. You can just hope that a) the money is being used well, and b) that it doesnt get too out of hand. I feel battle passes are probably the future for most games.
Battle Passes is definitely where I see games going. Will be interesting to see what Throne and Liberty implements and how New Worlds Battle Pass works out.
Monetization is a necessity in modern mmos for one simple reason: the compounding of cost. The standard for MMO are becoming more and more expensive, a simple $15 sub is not enough to keep development going.
Back in the early 2000s, I had more time than money. Now, I have more money than time. So, I don't mind a pay to win option in EQ/EQ2. It allows busy people to still enjoy the game.
This is why I'm not against pay for convenience, IE, level boosts or experience potions. For me my read line is predatory monetization that sets in after you've put hours into a game or buying power to the detriment of free players but that's harder to define. Theres a point for me where pay for convenience crosses into pay to win but I'm not sure where it is yet. For example if the best item in game is obtainable after 1000 hours or by paying $100 I'd probably lean toward that being pay to win. But if its more moderate like 100 hours to $100 that's not as bad? It's tough to define.
Oh that was never the question. This was more dissecting the change in payment model from Box and Subscription to Box and Subscription + Microtransactions and the varying levels of microtransactions. While I personally have a lot of tolerance for what I consider pay for convenience I know many people don't.
WoW and FF14 are still the least egregious games as far as cash shops go. You can play and enjoy the whole game without ever spending a dime in a cash shop. There's no MTX for extra bag spaces (GW2), loot boxes (ESO), raid gear (Rift), etc. WoW doesn't have armor transmog items in the shop (unlike GW2, ESO, EQ1&2, and FF14).
I kind of went in reverse order on this list to show the most extensive first and the least. The WoW token is the biggest offender in WoW, much more than their level boosts or the I believe two transmogs they have now. WoW Tokens and Kronos are kind of an in-between for pay to win but you'll get *tons* of arguments against them being pay to win, too. I'd forgotten about the randomized loot boxes in ESO but wasnt that mostly potions and cosmetics?
@@Redbeardflynn I don’t agree with WoW tokens and blizzard is certainly not perfect, but my argument is mainly centered around being able to have access to the full game without needing to spend money on micro transactions. Games like ESO, GW2, and BDO have rather plain looking armor, so if you want to look cool, you have to spend extra money. I can’t remember offhand if there are any recent transmogs in the cash shop for WoW, but if there are that still leaves 99.99% of transmogs available in game without MTXs. GW2 is kind of a special case where they’ve never had a sub, so the cash shop is not as big a deal because they need income to keep the game running. It kind of sucks when you have alts, though. You can easily spend way more in the cash shop than you would on a regular subscription. ESO loot boxes are mostly cosmetic I think, but still, I’d rather have access through gameplay like in WoW.
If the game has a Sub+Micro transactions I will not take it serious or play it long term. If the game has micro transactions in any way IMO it should be free2play, trying to stack a sub on top of that is just pure greed and it shows.
I don’t think I would call any ptw, as I’m not sure everyone has the same definition of winning. In eq, it’s nearly impossible to get the best gear even if you have krono to burn, as you’d still need to either raid (which typically means significant time commitment and high level class play) or you need to know someone who does raid and is willing to part with that gear for krono. Free to play is definitely a fallacy, as it’s more of a demo version than the real version, but most games were never free, and never will be. Money can help you get farther faster in eq, but the “end game” is still going to take significant time and skill to partake in.
This is definitely a key point and I don't think if you got 10 MMO players in a room they'd all agree on what counts as pay to win. I think of it like a continuum where each person kind of has their own personal red line of when something becomes pay to win and when it becomes too much to tolerate.
So, TH-cam comments is a rough place to have detailed discussions of things like really breaking down F2P/Hybrid/Box+Sub models and all variances thereof. So not gonna dive down that rabbit hole.
But, speaking to FFXIV specifically, there is one thing that (while I have a blast in the game) I think was missed as a big point. And, honestly a lot of folks miss it, especially if they're more casual players.
Retainers. Specifically, paying for *more* of them.
Retainers are not just automated fetch NPCs, they are also your combined bank/auction house capacity. So not only do high level retainers bring in potentially very valuable items from their Ventures, they also determine how much storage you have for those items and how many items in their storage you can have up for sale at any given time.
This loop is directly tied to the core of making Gil ingame, and that in turn drives things like your ability to bid stupid amounts for a house, buy rare materials from the AH, etc. Your capacity as a leveled or decently-leveled character to bring in money is tied *very* heavily to your Retainers.
And, if you may more per month, you can have additional retainers. It's an add-on to your sub. Pay a couple of bucks more per month? You now have 3 combined gatherer/banker/auctioneer NPCs working for you rather than the default 2. I touched on it when we played FFXIV and then did our breakdown/thoughts, and it was telling that very few people in the group noticed/knew about that, or had put that particular 2 and 2 together. It's almost sneaky in that it's not at all obvious on the surface just how much you can boost your money-making by paying more per month.
Going to pin this because I think it's an important addition to the subject of FFXIV and one that I wasn't aware of.
@@Redbeardflynn A lot of people aren't: it's not even something you do from the normal cash shop where you'd buy Fantasias etc. It's done from the add-ons section of your sub setup (which is a totally different site/interface, thanks Squeenix) which just further obscures it from people who are just looking to get in and play. So intentionally or not, it makes it even more "If you know, you know and can get a leg up" thing.
Don't get me wrong, you can get the game (or even start with the very content-heavy trial) and have a blast playing. There's a ton of value for even the basic 1-character monthly sub. But if you're playing the econ game, your wallet absolutely sets your limits.
I feel everyone playing Final Fantasy XIV knows about this... But like, while it's all true on paper, I feel a lot of the people who are rich got rich by hording money and selling items single big ticket items. Unless your endgame is glamour and/or housing. you're going to be sitting on a mountain of gil you don't use.
I don't even use my retainers. But thanks for the info.
Thought provoking video. My own definition of Pay 2 Win was typically if a game allowed you to purchase better gear than you could obtain from work in the game (grinding tomes , raids, crafting, etc.) or locked significant benefits behind a paywall (Rift’s earring slots).
I can say that to the XIV boosts giving 500k gil, it may sound like a lot of money, but it’s not truly. As each patch that updates the crafted gear to catch up to the previous patch raid gear is released the crafters are making Bank when that patch launches. In the economy of the Crystal DC 500k might buy you a main piece of gear (chest or legs) with maybe enough change left to get a small piece (gloves or a helm).
Micro-transactions like glams, mounts, minions, emotes. Nah those aren’t going anywhere. The most common complaints I hear regarding them in the XIV community is for glamour armors being gender-locked, the item being undyeable, or that the entire look is fixed to a single gear slot (usually chest) instead of separate pieces for mix&match. The last time I can remember a debate about their existence was the introduction of the two seater Cruise Chaser mount in the store. Some vehemently argued this should have been a reward for the Alexander Ultimate raid. The regional promos for XIV also stir up hard feelings but nothing so far community breaking.
I will add a “micro” transaction that did put me off a game was before WoW updated their character models. Instead of giving players one free redesign if you didn’t like how the graphic changes altered your character’s appearance, Blizzard said we would just have to shell out the money for each character we wanted to fix. For my 22 characters over two accounts that was just a final straw.
my friend was crafting on Endwalker launch and pieces went for like 80k because everyone did it :D
Old school RuneScape for the win!!!!!
Plot Twist: There is no winning in EQ......ever.
I agree I am not sure how you win. The fun is getting gear. I don't see a point in rushing or paying to play. Even Pl seems like a waste of what could be a fun time
As long as it's not predatory or breaks the game, I don't really see the problem with p2w (at least from the ff14 perspective, Wow and everquest seem like another story)
most players in FFxiv do not buy the level and story skips.Players who do use those services are the folks who just raid and use cheats or buy raid ready accounts.They don't care about the story or the community they only care about raid content...I wonder if the Tarkov wiggle can be done in FFxiv as well?
bro I think ur thinking abt another type of wiggling in FF
@@imded4014 no i am thinking of something to that equivalent to the Tarkov wiggle to signify they cheat...not the lewd wiggle
I think it depends a bit on what definition of pay to win you use. The one I usually think of is acquiring meaningful advantages that you can not possibly acquire by simply playing. Forexample, you can buy a level skip and it can give you the best gear from the last expac and some money, it wont be Pay to Win by that definition, because you can acquire levels by playing, you can get the exact gear by playing, and you can get money by playing. You have received zero advantages that you couldn't get by playing normally. The moment you get an item that has just 1 more stat point than the max of any regular player though, say your best in slot raid reward gear has 205 STR and you can buy a set with 206, that then becomes pay to win.
I don't care as long as playing the game isn't paywalled. i.e. in order to kill boss # 5/10 in raid X you need to have 200+ fire resistance. Pay money to get 200+ fire resistance or grind for 10 years. That's effectively paywalled. It would be fine if it was like. You can buy this starter gear for 5 dollars and it will last you till you start getting gear from the first couple of dungeons but the starter gear is really not needed unless you are that bad at playing video games (yes, I'm that bad). Most games have starting quest lines that get you this starter gear now. So it's not a big deal. But I died so many times on my Palidan cause I could only ever find leather gear in crushbone. I never made it past level 14. And I'd die so much and de-level so many times. Now I'm not that bad, but I would have definitely paid for a starter set of gear back in 1999. So, really I am against pay to win, but pro, pay to die less and de-level less in the starting areas of the game.
Lol. Back when EQ was 9.89 /month because of 989 studios
I can hear it in my head. Nine Eight Nine....Studios...
EQ has been pay to win a long time. You can buy your whole epic or keys to the RAID zone. This ruined the game especially with a rumored pvp TLP.
I would say that would have come in with Krono, right? After all you can't buy your Epic from Daybreak, you'd have to pay players to help you through it which exists in every game, the difference being you can do it now by paying real money for Krono then converting it to Platinum or trading them directly.
Hell, I tried playing the Mischief server TLP. RMT "players" are even in regular player guilds. Because people with 6 accounts can still make more platinum in a 2 hour raid than they can soloing non-bosses with a box army.
Krono straight up ruined the EverQuest player experience.
Lacking gear in EQ nowadays doesn't make people think you're a gamer. People regard you as poor IRL.
Hard to escape your crappy life of poverty in a game where you're reminded of your real life poverty. I'm not saying I'm impoverished, but games like EQ sure do remind me I'm NO WEALTHY. That's an uncomfortable biproduct of a pay to win MMO.
MMOs have been pay to win since MMOs were invented. The problem is gold / plat selling websites existed with these MMOs. Pay real money on these websites, and get in game currency traded to you. You then trade in game currency for in game items from other players. Players have been selling raid drops for in game currency ever since raids were a thing. Which is pretty much forever. If you think MMOs actually banned players for using these sites you are delusional. I know because I've done it myself. My friends / guild mates have done this as well. None of us were ever banned.
Some MMOs just got smart enough to realize they could make this website selling currency stuff money for themselves by introducing things like WoW tokens and Kronos.
The big bad pay to win is when they started adding gear and exp potions. They inflate the exp in these games by insane amounts to force you to need to buy these damn exp potions. I get the feeling they learned this from cellphone app games. Make these games restricted, very restricted. Then sell ways to unlock things faster. Selling "perks" is just another version of this as well. You pay for convenience.
You should check out guild wars 2, I just started and it seems most stuff can be bought with in game money. No sub, ftp model but more stuff if you buy the game and expansions.
GW2 is great. Actually did a video not too long ago on how well that game was doing last year. They've got a pretty solid monetization model, one of the best imo.
As a long time WoW player (2008) and more recently FFXIV player (2021), a couple thoughts...
They both offer level boosts, but it only boosts you to the starting level for the current expansion, where you still need to quest through and level up based on the range for the current XPAC. This enables new players to start and play with friends in current content. There is no good reason to force players to play through the last 10-20 years of content to just jump into the current evolution of the game.
WoW is definitely much faster to level through as it has been optimized a bit and unlike FFXIV isn't as dependent on finishing MSQ for unlocking content. (Dungeons/Raids, etc) That is why FFXIV has a separate option to clear the MSQ. For those who haven't played FFXIV, the MSQ required to bring you up to the start of Endwalker (Current XPAC) was over 800 storyline quests, no optional or side quests, just main scenario. It took me from June until Oct playing heavily to progress through it (watching cutscenes and everything). That is a serious barrier to entry for new players that want to join their friends.
The WoW token definitely opens the door to P2W, because I can buy as many as I want to farm up a ton of gold to pay for items and carries. (Or GDKPs in Classic)
Retainers in FFXIV are the main area where they might verge into P2W, as they do add extra storage space (on top of the 500 storage slots you get for free w/ 2 retainers, chocobo saddle bag, and inventory) That also doesn't include the armory chest for gear storage, glamor dresser, armoire, and any FC storage. It also enables you to sell concurrently more items on the market board. However, sending them out to gather stuff costs another currency that you would need to farm up and supply, so that's a mixed bag.
However, at the end of the day, WoW token does provide a much more direct path to P2W gearing. I have yet to find a way that the payment options in FFXIV that really increase my gear level at all without significant additional work. It's just a bit more convenient to have extra storage, so you aren't spending as much time cleaning out the old crap you stashed away for no good reason, other than being a hoarder.
Everyone draws the line in a different place about P2W, mine is something that will enable me to accelerate my progression along the power curve of current content much faster than I otherwise could. E.g. Lost Ark
The only MMO I would play is the one that sticks to firm equal for all pay model. $20 per month is nothing for something I really like. Too bad there hasn't been a game like that for a while. A model that is free to play but sells cosmetics only, that do not affect gameplay is also fine.
Ashes of Creation promises to deliver on that. Hopefully it's good and they stick to that decision.
Ngl I wouldn't even consider Final Fantasy as a "Pay to Win" game. The boosts for MSQ / Level things are things you can achive super fast regardless without spending money. It will never give you an advantage over players not buying it. Pay to win for me is when you are spending real money into something which other players cant obtain so you have a clear advantage over them. This clearly is never the case for any purchase you do in Final Fantasy.
Imo skipping the level part or even the Mainquest of an MMO is just not right, because you bought this game to play it and not instantly skip half or even more of the games playtime.
I think it's always irked me a bit more in FFXIV that they have the story skip you can pay for especially when so much of FFXIV is built on story. To each their own but it just feels different than say, a boost to play with your friends because the game is all about end-game.
@@Redbeardflynn It's because the MSQ in FFXIV gates access to so many things. If you don't have an MSQ skip option, you end up with a level 80 character that can't access 80% of the dungeons, trials, or raids in the game.
I really just don't see how you can mechanically justify any of the FFXIV systems as P2W.
Skipping the MSQ on your first playthrough is just ridiculous, and that MSQ gives you several level capped characters worth of exp, not to mention notably more gil than what's included in the skip. It only has any real value for players wanting to instantly generate a ready to go alt, i.e. they don't acquire anything they didn't already have.
Even the much maligned retainers amplify existing gil making strategies at the very worst, and there's vanishingly few uses for that gil.
You can't get hard carried through new hard content because it's built to require all 8 players, so any additional gil is of questionable value. If you still have to do your part, then you're just raiding...
At the very most, you can buy crafted gear with full melds, but the gear is weighted to be worse than the gear you get from the new raid tier it launches aside...
What exactly is a big wallet supposed to get you here?
@@Redbeardflynn FWIW your opinion lines up with YoshiP, he didn't want them in the game; they only put those skips in there because people kept asking for them (and presumably corporate was glaring at them to take the free money).
Honestly outside of making alts on other servers I've never seen any point to skips in 14, everything in the game is designed around you playing the story and naturally leveling that way.
The one exception I can think of is when the two big wow guilds came to try out the raids as a stunt, and that's such a niche circumstance I'm not sure it's worth thinking about.
Former EQ/EQ2, WoW player that currently plays SWTOR. I would define pay to win as being able to buy something that is equal to or better than what you can manage in the game. Level boosts are something I am not interested in as getting to that level is most of the fun. If someone wants to buy that and some crappy armor for that level (like the SWTOR boost) more power to them. If it's just cosmetic items that are being bought I don't have an issue with that. Now back in the day I remember people selling their account for real world money, while SOE turned a blind eye and that I didn't like one bit. And yep I witnesses that from guildies that took buyouts.
Yes it is pay to win. And it's all based around the Krono. still have hundreds of Kronos from selo and mischief. It's sad it's the currency but I'm gonna keep saving for a PvP TLP ;)
If people wish to buy a different look from a cash shop that is fine by me. As long as I have the option to buy a toggle to turn it off. This way they can look and roll play as they wish as I also have the same option for a price to turn it all off. This will bring in a source of additional income to the Devs. while keeping those that do and do not want look at transmog outfits. Guild Wars 2 is also known as Fashion Wars many people will pay good money to look good same go's for ingame houses in some games. You can use in game currency /gold to buy gems to then buy items from the Black Lions Trading Company. Let them have the cosmetic cash shop just have toggles ready for those of us that choose not to look at that ah stuff. ✌
Toggles are an interesting idea. I think it's come up a few times before as an alternative.
Sadly no. I don't think any new MMO will come out with out the Krono/game time token . I would love to play a game where you can't buy gold and use gold to buy your SoD or MoT or buy arena carries but the truth is this only pushes ebayers to other websites to just buy the gold. There really is no way around this. :( So of course EQ or wow is gonna sell you it instead of losing all that money to a third party site. I did have some ideas on how to fix this issue but might only make things worse. I thought it would be cool to just reset all gold/plat. Invest in items then have something reset every quarter add more currency dumps and people just invest before the reset. It would but I mean lots of currency unlocks so much that your not even expected to unlock them all
I really do not mind the transmog, pets, mounts, toys being in a real money store if it means lower sub cost or no cost. I really dislike that EQ offers the game "Free", when it is definitely not. I was super excited about it when i heard that, but because I had more than the alloted 4 "free" slots, I could not make a new character and most of my other characters were above the level range of being able to actually progress with them for "free", so I really couldn't do anything. I'd have to delete 3 characters to make a new one that I could actually play or what I ended up doing not too long after which is sub for a month, create a couple new characters to try out when the sub went away and play those characters a little bit for "free". One of them was fun, the other not so much and eventually I got to the point of not wanting to play those and just wanting to play my real characters and I ended up just not subbing again.
I have a friend who likes to krono farm on new servers and he will occasionally toss me a krono for some game time(he literally doesn't do anything else, except play a gnome mage and just solo to max level, get about 5-10 krono and he ends up quitting around the time kunark comes out or before. It's an odd playstyle because he HATES grouping, doesn't like the social party or guild aspect of the game either. He's, different I suppose whereas I really like the social aspect of being in a guild and partying. Sorry, long winded story, I miss EQ, but I am currently playing Dragonflight. it's really a weird thing. I logged onto EQ the other week just to check it out and I felt more welcome in my old guild than I do in my current WoW guild. I've been in the EQ guild since they were raiding Dragons of Norrath which was really fun (looked it up, 2005) and I have been in my WoW guild since Cata (looked it up, 2010). I know I have spent WAAAAAAY more time in WoW since 2005 and definitely since 2010.
Edit: If EQ was actually FTP I would probably be playing it all the time, or at least more than I am playing WoW now. I am mostly indifferent about level boosts to just below the max level. It's not for me, but I think you should have to have a max level character in order to purchase it.
Cool shirt. I'll tell you this, P99 is definitely NOT pay to win ;)
I hate this video :( Thanks for making it. having played all of these games since launch and seeing the creeping cancer that is monetisation, documented in chronological order makes me sad. It's 2023 and I'm still playing project 1999 because I hate all this crap so much. Let us hope that Pantheon arrives soon and it is sub fee only.
Micro transactions aren't going anywhere because of the high ROI. doesn't cost much to make the shop item, and the money that can be made is too worth it for the companies to ignore. You can just hope that a) the money is being used well, and b) that it doesnt get too out of hand. I feel battle passes are probably the future for most games.
Battle Passes is definitely where I see games going. Will be interesting to see what Throne and Liberty implements and how New Worlds Battle Pass works out.
I would rather pay $24.99 a month than have Any cash shop or pay to win or pay to boost etc.
Anything over strict cosmetics is P2W, very simple.
00:32 that’s FFXI icon. Not FFXIV lol Just sayin…
why do you say MMO like that all slurred?
mythic raid wow carrys cost like 1k$ if you want to spend that much money more power to you
I tried to avoid anything outside of normal operations for the game. There's definitely secondary pay markets, though.
0:33 thats ffxi not ffxiv lol
Good content 👍
Monetization is a necessity in modern mmos for one simple reason: the compounding of cost. The standard for MMO are becoming more and more expensive, a simple $15 sub is not enough to keep development going.
Back in the early 2000s, I had more time than money. Now, I have more money than time. So, I don't mind a pay to win option in EQ/EQ2. It allows busy people to still enjoy the game.
Don't ruin it for the next generation.
@@belstar1128 Giving people choice shouldn't ruin your experience.
This is why I'm not against pay for convenience, IE, level boosts or experience potions. For me my read line is predatory monetization that sets in after you've put hours into a game or buying power to the detriment of free players but that's harder to define. Theres a point for me where pay for convenience crosses into pay to win but I'm not sure where it is yet. For example if the best item in game is obtainable after 1000 hours or by paying $100 I'd probably lean toward that being pay to win. But if its more moderate like 100 hours to $100 that's not as bad? It's tough to define.
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Ffxi
XIV's story is so good that paying to skip it is pay to lose, imo. Other than that I agree with everything you said. On point!
That is exactly how I feel about SWTOR's stories (as different classes have different stories for the original content)
Come on, do you think a game creates itself, there has to be some money in developing a game, game developers have to eat as well
Oh that was never the question. This was more dissecting the change in payment model from Box and Subscription to Box and Subscription + Microtransactions and the varying levels of microtransactions. While I personally have a lot of tolerance for what I consider pay for convenience I know many people don't.
WoW and FF14 are still the least egregious games as far as cash shops go. You can play and enjoy the whole game without ever spending a dime in a cash shop. There's no MTX for extra bag spaces (GW2), loot boxes (ESO), raid gear (Rift), etc. WoW doesn't have armor transmog items in the shop (unlike GW2, ESO, EQ1&2, and FF14).
I kind of went in reverse order on this list to show the most extensive first and the least. The WoW token is the biggest offender in WoW, much more than their level boosts or the I believe two transmogs they have now. WoW Tokens and Kronos are kind of an in-between for pay to win but you'll get *tons* of arguments against them being pay to win, too.
I'd forgotten about the randomized loot boxes in ESO but wasnt that mostly potions and cosmetics?
@@Redbeardflynn I don’t agree with WoW tokens and blizzard is certainly not perfect, but my argument is mainly centered around being able to have access to the full game without needing to spend money on micro transactions. Games like ESO, GW2, and BDO have rather plain looking armor, so if you want to look cool, you have to spend extra money. I can’t remember offhand if there are any recent transmogs in the cash shop for WoW, but if there are that still leaves 99.99% of transmogs available in game without MTXs.
GW2 is kind of a special case where they’ve never had a sub, so the cash shop is not as big a deal because they need income to keep the game running. It kind of sucks when you have alts, though. You can easily spend way more in the cash shop than you would on a regular subscription.
ESO loot boxes are mostly cosmetic I think, but still, I’d rather have access through gameplay like in WoW.
If the game has a Sub+Micro transactions I will not take it serious or play it long term. If the game has micro transactions in any way IMO it should be free2play, trying to stack a sub on top of that is just pure greed and it shows.
I don’t think I would call any ptw, as I’m not sure everyone has the same definition of winning. In eq, it’s nearly impossible to get the best gear even if you have krono to burn, as you’d still need to either raid (which typically means significant time commitment and high level class play) or you need to know someone who does raid and is willing to part with that gear for krono. Free to play is definitely a fallacy, as it’s more of a demo version than the real version, but most games were never free, and never will be. Money can help you get farther faster in eq, but the “end game” is still going to take significant time and skill to partake in.
This is definitely a key point and I don't think if you got 10 MMO players in a room they'd all agree on what counts as pay to win. I think of it like a continuum where each person kind of has their own personal red line of when something becomes pay to win and when it becomes too much to tolerate.