Counter picking is essentially rock paper scissors, but at the same time if you get good enough at a hero, you can essentially become a rock so large no paper can cover.
@@notcharles625 but in rock paper scissors paper does not cut, it covers - so if you follow the ops idea of being so good at a hero that you can work around a counter, in RPS it would be an equivalent of an uncoverable rock, paper so hard/thick that it cannot be cut, or scissors that are so sharp that the rock can't dull them but instead gets cut itself.
Something that I feel hasn’t been mentioned yet in these videos is the significance of a DPS hero’s effective range. The reason why certain heroes are categorized into these playstyles is because their kits and effective ranges match the playstyle. In Gold ranks, I feel like building good team comps rarely happens, so a general rule of thumb that’s safer is to pick your DPS heroes to counter the effective ranges of the enemy and fill ranges that your team lacks or double down on the space that you do control. The ranges are pretty much: Close, Medium, Long, Far. Some examples of that being: Tracer, Cassidy, Ashe, Widowmaker in that order I think. Keep in mind I’m not a high elo player, but this is advice I’ve been given from friends that have played for a long time.
Yep, don't run reaper tracer into a pharah comp if your supports and tank aren't hitscan. The funny thing about being a one trick is that if you want to win you can't one trick.
Ya know, Blizzard stated that they wanted to lessen the counter pick need in the game. Overwatch 2 feels waaay more counter pick based than Ow1 though... Which sucks Because you rarely get to enjoy the character you want to play the whole match, or you have a disadvantage
Or team assisting the player so they aren’t so hard countered. I think in OW2 it’s also easier to be countered and not notice though. It might be because I’ve gone up in rank substantially since ow2. After a match I’ll realize I wasn’t getting as much value as I thought. Maybe I use to think I was a better player then I do now too.
@@devlintaylor9520nah it's just the other supports aren't as proactive as her. All the other supports except lucio speed, zen discord, and brig are very defensive(brig is more of an escort/distraction like "best defense makes a great offense" style). Even bap, illari, and kiriko some of the arguably strongest dps style supports are very defensive in their abilities leading to extremely strong heals and survivability creep. Mercy does damage boost but after a certain skill threshold might as well take a kiriko or bap instead.
as a tank main its so infuriating rn, either I can play orisa and basically afk with the enemy orisa (they have to play orisa if I do) and pray my team win the 4v4 or i can play any one else, get discorded/hacked and focused, or the enemy switches to orisa and bullys me till I swap and do that bs again
What most of my matches look like anymore is I start out on rein/Winston, win 1st fight, they go orisa, I go zarya after getting rolled, they go rein or ram to counter zar, I mirror the rein, mtd and either win or if the match is long enough they go orisa again and the cycle continues
Dva is even worse. The moment you do anything, the enemy tank just swaps Zarya like 9 times out of 10. That, and her playstyle is really stunted with 5v5 making even playing her unfun.
@arakami8547 idk man I actually disagree with this one. On maps where I personally play dva there is so much highground I never get forced off by zarya. Also Winston counters zarya and I love Winston so I don't mind
@arakami8547 I also disagree that she is stunted by 5v5. Dva is incredibly strong since she can kinda do everything. She can peel, dive, hold a frontline, control flanks, control highground, cancel ults, etc. There are definitely tanks that can do some of those things better, but the fact that she can do all of them makes it feel like she is almost always a good pick.
I think the red triangle specifically should have been marked a bit differently. As it is now, it winds up preventing you from marking if the character is good at that role. Maybe changing the background of the cell to indicate a counter would work better? Then you could have Brig with a "counters dive" background and a good at dive checkmark. It's a little jarring to see "Ball counters poke" and also "ball is good in a poke comp" without seeing that laid out in the chart.
I think that flanking is often misinterpreted as always dive. Dive flank’s goal is usually to get picks by surprising targets from multiple angles, but Poke flanks and rush flanks can be used for different purposes. For example, rush flanks like rein/bastion can result in picks, but usually exist to force the enemy away out of position. Being sneaky isn’t as important since they gain space using their threatening aura. As another example, poke flanks like soldier/sym can pump out constant pressure from alternate angles. This is usually effective at creating crossfires on the enemy team. The largest weakness with poke or rush flanks is getting out safely. Since those heroes have less mobility than dive they should only go on flanks with a plan B. I am GM but team composition is a weakness of mine so please feel free to add anything that I may have missed.
As a soldier main great explanation of what we do. Basically just taking focus away from the team. Giving the tank and supports more freedom to make plays.
I would say better is paper being poke and rush being rock for alliteration and dive being scissors because quite literally you try to cut or divide the team’s attention: the counters also still align, much easier way to remember.
Gm pharah 1 trick here, pharah can 100% be played in dive, in fact thats the most fun comp i play her in. She has such explosive mobility that allows her to take aggressive positioning along with dive heroes and playing with dive her allows her to have more pressure on her counters as well as suplementing a lot of the consistent damage that some dive heroes lack. As long as you can translate good fundamentals into 3 dimensions, playing pharah in dive is a really good application of her kit.
ye came to comments to say pharah is dive. yeah she pokes during setup/rite b4 initiating but in a poke v poke matchup she cant do anything w/o getting lucky or closing distance to dive
The moments I saw a ❌ on Phara Dive. I took a long break from Overwatch but now that pharah has a horizontal dash, she can absolutely dominate in Dive and I'll go as far as to say Dive is the best comp to play pharah
Main healer vs Off healer still covers that dichotomy Main healers primarily sustain a team while Off healers primarily provide utililty Neither dichotomy works 100% of the time, but Main/Off healer duos will generally be more successful No one is playing Lifeweaver with Ana, moira, or Bap because LW already meets the healing needs of the team, so enables Lucio/Brig/Zen/Illari to peel and worry about healing less which is how they’re optimally played. I could go way more in depth, but the point is Main/Flex support is only used in GM1/T500/OWL where people take less damage whereas the other 99% will contribution significantly more with comps using main/off healers
As a Doomfist one trick in low elo, I can attest that you can get over the rock paper scissors by playing really well. However, it’s been increasingly frustrating that game after game, once the enemy sees me playing Doom, the enemy counterswaps to a more brawl-type comp and I can never play the usual dive playstyle that Doom is good at. (Especially since nobody in gold knows how to play with Doomfist to begin with).
Pro tip, don't follow the chart to a T. recognize what works and what doesn't. Kiri for example does work in poke comps decently well and rush comps she can be strong. rein works with poke comps most of the time as well. Dva works in rush comps aswell. mercy can work in rush comps. zen works in rush comps just as well as in dive (I would even say better). Hanzo can work with dive comps depending on the map. Junkrat works pretty damn well in rush comps and can work on poke comps depending on the map. Echo works really well in rush comps. And Tracer works really really well on rush comps. This is coming from a multiple time gm player so no I'm not just talking out my ass
The resaon i accept flex/main support is that whenever there are 2 main supports on a team its basiaclly an instant loss, it helps to think of that way when chooisng a hero to fit my comp
I think there's a little more to it then just team synergy. Certain characters are capable of being independent, or given 1 teammate being unkillable (Ana brig, pharmercy). I can't speak for high levels, but in my games we found that doing a 3 man bunker and a 2 man roaming unit is very effective. The 2 man needs to be able to get kills though, but by pocketing 1 DPS and letting them cook the enemy is split or else it's the same thing as ignoring a turret: it may not kill you immediately but it'll kill you eventually. That strategy started as pharmercy but any dive DPS plus Ana or lifeweaver is also very strong we found. Ranged characters benefit from a brig or bap and are stupid hard to kill because diving one unit ignores the other, and splitting up results in multiple small fights
I like to think of what you call rush "brawl" while rush is brawl but with a lucio or a few movement heros mixed in cause I don't see a whole lot of rushing in these comps without mobility heros
In my experience, At a high level rush/brawl comps almost always include a movement hero such as lucio, queen or sym. Often multiple. Without the movement its very easy to poke and outplay, as demonstrated in the video above. so I guess your Idea of "Brawl" isnt really present in common strategy, so they are used synonymously
@foxbot7538 I feel the term common strategy is misleading as what i assume you mean by it is common sense but it is actually pretty uncommon for people in ranked to ever run thought out comps, even in high elo. Plus there are plenty of brawl comps that don't use lucio and instead of closing the distance they camp the objective with a more bunker playstyle that I still wouldn't classify as true bunker or poke since they don't have much range. These comps may not be very strong but are pretty common in ranked. I feel brawl is a better umbrella term for these and rush as both have the objective to brawl, but only rush wants to run at the enemy
@@foxbot7538 It used to be called brawl, and yeah it needed speed. Rush came up with the grouped up dive comps, like lucio, moira, reaper, winston stuff.
Nice video. I like the theory but am a little skeptical of some of the classifications. I play flex support mostly so that's where I noticed some things. Most people at the moment see Kiriko as the most flexible support, but it seems like you see her mainly as a dive hero. That and you have Bap being playable everywhere where most people see him as being weak in dive. And with Ana you have her as a strong dive hero but I typically see her used in lots of poke too, even rush sometimes. I feel like there are other factors such as individual hero synergies, enemy team comps, and maps that influence hero strengths in these categories.
Well, remember that each game comes with a different context. Kiriko's playstyle naturally lends itself to Dive, and in Rush she can hit some mega fat Suzu's and Kitsunes. But if you're playing against Poke, Kiriko will often be your anti-poke hero bullying sightlines because of her cross-map headshots. You can play her on Poke and succeed, but you're not getting a lot of the value her kit brings in other comps. People can 1-trick up to top 50, and especially on ladder the rules get looser because even if you have a poke comp that doesn't mean your team knows how to poke. In general I think team comp is overemphasized because on ladder you just can't take it too much to heart. Flexibility within one hero's playstyles is much more important than team comp unless you're stacking (which you can't even do in GM), because you have control over your own gameplay but not your team's.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u So considering all that I feel she should be strong in rush and dive but mid in poke. Whereas Bap should be strong in poke and rush but mid or weak in dive.
I'm confused that Lucio has a triangle at dive. When I imagine dive I imagine a Winston Tracer and Lucio all jumping a target at the same time. I've never seen a Brigitte do that.
@@INeed333Quid It's another style of dive that's become more popular over time. Brig pairs with a main healer like Ana or Kiriko (preferably Ana) and focuses on keeping them alive while most of the team is on the dive. It helps compensate for the weaknesses created in dive that leave your backline vulnerable. The good thing about Brig too is that she has decent mobility with shield bash so you can close the distance and go in with your team sometimes as well to finish off fights. And since armor pack healing is very quick and with her inspire having such a large AOE she is really good at healing fast paced dive comps. I mostly play Kiriko in dive but if I have the right team on the right map or against certain comps I will pull out Brig As for Lucio I think he should be a little better on dive too but in recent time he's seen more play with rush. I think he's just a little weak right now relative to the other supports and the new dive meta has thus shifted to brig, ana, and kiriko all being stronger dive heroes. But even in early OW2 and late OW1 lucio was starting to see more play with rush. Lucio Bap paired with a Rein or something was becoming a staple rush comp.
@@jamesburnett3594I’m a brig main and I really think she’s better in poke than in dive doing what you said. My favourite brig play style is to sit on a sniper and protect them, it’s especially powerful on maps like Havana with long sight lines. I’d also have put lifeweaver in rush somewhat, because he is really good at the poke/rush hybrid with a doom fist or a queen. Send a player in deep, pull them out, repeat.
As a one trick lucio I will say I think lucio can counter dive pretty bad if you know how to displace people and peel also poke comp is basically becoming a beat bot and then fighting with tank it’s hard asf to do especially in gm
Yeah, I feel like there used to be more peeler type lucios back in the day, but the numbers have whittled down with the increasing number of flex supports, his utility in rush, and the viability of double flex supports.
skill expression within the support role seemingly has shifted from rewarding creative playmaking and game sense, to a more watered down, less nuanced numbers game that rewards high burst healing, damage, and pick potential. In other words, in order to play Lucio at high elo, one must play considerably better than their support counterparts, who have an easier time achieving value when disregarding team play
I think the chart is a bit confusing as you mix the hero's own playstyle and team Synergy. For example you put brig under the dive category, but Brig herself is always rushing with all the characteristic of a rush hero, she just synergies more with dive. But when it comes to Ashe, you put her in not diving despite the character being played a lot of in dive, just like brig, for her ability to threaten enemy tracers. For supports it really depends of the support duo you play. Generally dive will be either Ana-Brig or Lucio-Kiriko, rush will be Lucio-Moira or Lucio-Bap and poke will be Bap-zen or Bap-Illari. Mercy is to be played with specific heroes, she can work in all playstyle as long as she has an Echo, Pharah, Ashe, Widow, Cassidy, Soldier, Bastion or Sojourn to pocket. LW is sort of weird and not a very synergistic hero, but generally work in comps and map that play less grouped up, as most of its value comes from being able to lifegrip, and therefore being at a medium distance from the team.
Brig isnt a rush hero, hasnt been one since she got nerfed during goats meta, shes GREAT in dive and poke, being able to keep her ana or zen alive for ages
I actually find Pharah best or at least good with a dive comp, even if they have hitscans to shoot you down, them having a Genji/Tracer and a dive tank in their face all the time doesn't really allow them to do that. Not only that but having dive characters in your team also allows you to just go right above the enemy team for that exact reason, them unable to focus either you or the rest of your team at the same time.
re: main support vs flex support. it's my strong impression that the terms originated in the early pro scene and was simply "well we have to have a mercy or lucio, so that's our main (as in primary) support player" and then the flex support was just the one that played the rest. though at the time i think there was just 4 supports, so maybe it was "lucio player" and the rest. i dunno. i think it stuck around in pro play as sort of job titles. in pro play (that ive seen lately) main support is just as you say (mercy, lucio, brig, and maybe LW), but i dont think it's really for the reasons you give (aim reliance). just coincidence, or things people have guessed at over time.
its none of those things. this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. it's HEALING OUTPUT. that's all. good main supports have strong access to both sustained AND burst healing. flex supports often have more utility or non-healing focused kits, and less potential for either burst OR sustained healing, while retaining decent healing in one of the categories.
@@hem9483 im sorry but thats wrong. that's not what the terms are for. they might be how some people use them now but that's not their original meaning
You can play dive with snipers in the same way you can play Ana in dive. A lot of older Overwatch dive comps used snipers to weaken or get a pick before a dive encounter. Dive can have a split team with half the team engaged in the dive and the other half sitting back abusing the space the dive creates. I do not think reaper is good into dive as well. Most comps and teams don't use reaper dive...
Its because of the bucket loads of healing the game has, shes able to just anchor for hours and not die, if support gets nerfed down properly, shell go back to her anti brawl niche
1:27 I think if you need constant healing, you’re probably playing the game incorrectly. I think that’s the biggest change from OW1. In OW2, you have to use cover more, and play more intelligently. That’s why Main & Flex Support is a better way to think about it than “healers” specially since they’re called Supports not Healers.
@@theextramenuyou’re giving an example of a hybrid comp something Krow didn’t go over. Pharahmercy is indeed pole but they can be played in a hybrid comp that features both dive and poke. Same thing widow and whoever else
Main and flex support’s are fine. But you’ve put some flex supports in main support on ur rush/dive/poke tables. Also main healers and off healers should also be considered cause otherwise you get cursed comps like mercy zen. And in ranked not having a main healer can be detrimental which is where most people play.
@@superduper4696 it must be pulled off really well though surely? I see there’s an exception for every comp including comps with no healing that just kill the enemy faster.
Do you think you could ever do an open q video on what best comp hypothetically that could be? It’s definitely not as popular but I’d like to hear your thoughts
For the thumbnail btw mei's hand for paper should be on widow and widows hand for scissors should be on mei, just noticed that because tracer actually has the rock hand.
My only complaint with the video is the title and the “rock paper scissors” section. In reality it’s so much more complicated than one comp “beats” another. You might say that rush beats dive because london spitfire win every time they go against dive. In reality the reason london beats dive every time is just because they practiced against dive so so so much back in early 2022 (source backbone and christfer), not because rush has some inherent advantage over dive. So many factors such as map, individual strength of your players, coordination, etc effect who wins a match. I don’t want people to come away from this video thinking that if the enemy goes dive they MUST go rush in order to win because that just isn’t true. Countering in Overwatch 2 is so overrated by the majority of players and it’s often easier to just adjust your playstyle on one hero rather than switching to another. Poke can beat dive if you’re just a good sigma player that can adapt, dive can beat rush if you’re a good winston player. Im not encouraging one tricking but seeing people obsessively counter swapping is a huge red flag of a bad player. Edit: I think you should match your hero pick with what YOUR team is playing, not what the enemy team is playing. Just if that wasn’t clear. Edit 2: also dva is good with and against poke
Counterpicking would be fine as a way to design the game if ult economy wasn't so important. Too much power is in ults, to the point where they're so inflexible. It would be cool to see a more flexible version of this game where ults are really more varied in power where there were more ult like Window which are strong but more tempo gainers than fight winners. Like if blade was toned down so it felt more like Rammatras nemesis form, but was up way more often. Or like dooms current ult where he just kinda tosses it as a get out of jail free card. Of course you'd still have your big teamfight ults like Hammer
Before I start, I should note that I don't play OW, and has never played a game of OW or OW2 before, only watched videos on it. I've been thinking a bit, about game balanced specifically. It's something I like doing, and I thought about OW2's balanced and how only having 1 Tank in the game ruined some other Tank heroes and messed up the balance in general. And I though up a solution to fixing this problem, being that we bring back 222, BUT we keep the Player Limit, the Team Limit, to 5. It'll bring back double Tanks, and have Main Tanks and Off Tanks be a thing again, but you'll have to give up a DPS or Support. The idea being making team comp all about tradeoffs, about what capability's are you willing to give up, as you can't quite have a fully balanced team that covers all your bases. This idea isn't original, btw. I took it from Etrian Odyssey, and how in those games the balance is around having 6 characters in a team but you can only have 5 characters at any given time. So there's always some sort of gap in capabilities in whatever team your building due to not having that extra character. You might be able to mitigate that gap to some degree by using some more flexible classes, but it'll never be as good as just having a 6th character, and multirole classes kit are never as good as classes with a more focused and singular kit, as they should. And this is the basis of this idea I have, and at the very least, it'll make the game less overcentralizing around the Tank roll, and who has the better Tank and whatnot. Once again, I should reiterate that I have never played a game of OW or OW2 before. Off-topic Rant incoming, this doesn't have much to do with the video or my balance idea, but I'm not saying this to preemptively defend myself from criticism, I'm fine if you call my idea stupid, I'm just saying this so people will understand that I'm not pretending to know OW balancing, or act like I've played OW. I'm am NOT one to parrot what others say and feel on something just for Internet Brownie Points, and actually try to think critically whenever I can and unbiasly as one can be. And I say this because I hate people spouting shit and preaching about something they don't even believe in. I'm sick of it, and I see it happening WAY to often. Anyways, rant over.
When it comes to the issue with tank getting focused i think it mostly comes down to who your playing. If your say a hog and the enemy has a sojourn then your lack of a sheild with a massive hitbox and shorter range lets her get free charge pretty much whenever your around. But if you were say a junkerqueen going against the sojourn then yeah that headshot is gonna hit you alot harder bc of the lower hp pool but your smaller hitbox makes you a less reliable target for her to charge off of plus with no sheild she has to play closer with her projectiles to get consistent charge and your shout can both deny any dmg to you from the railgun unless its a headshot and even then its minimal, or even just dodge the shot bc of her speed boost. The new tanks, dps and supports are all built for the 5v5. Mauga has a bigger hitbox but hes meant to be a tank type bastion, snipers can burst you down with consistent headshots but up close your dmg out matches that. With jq she was meant to be a sort of replacement to hog. She has all the aspects we liked about hog before the rework but none of the glaring weaknesses. She can pull you in, almost oneshot with axe swing, minimize dmg with her shout to survive, and has a smaller hitbox so she doesnt feel like a bullet sponge
Now, that you have discussed the picks strength/weaknesses in roles and in team, can you make a video about heroes strengths/weaknesses against teams/heroe archetypes?
I know this isn't related but: Something odd I just realized is how different language localizations have different font styles (English, Korean, Russian, etc.)
Really love these vids. Currently struggling with mechanics (really only been pc gaming for about 2 years) and learning theory in the meantime is helping move my game forward.
I often see kiri in poke comps too, but this might be because she’s overtuned to the point she can be strong in almost any scenario even if her general abilities seem intended for different uses.
The main support and flex support names are outdated because originally when they were coined they meant that flex support could flex into dps. But this is now not possible so the flex support name lost its meaning.
things that I would argue are wrong with the chart: Brig - Definitely playable with poke as an anti dive hero, so I would argue that she should be put as playable (think of bap/brig and brig/zen comps for poke which are really strong in the right circumstances) Illiari - She is definitely best in poke, specifically off angle comps and is not that great in rush because in rush. I would argue that she should have a checkmark for poke, X for rush, and triangle for dive Orisa - She should have an X for dive for sure, she doesn't do any sort of dive what-so-ever Doom - Definitely still playable in dive Hog - I completely agree that he shouldn't be on this list, dogshit hero ngl
Only one correction. Kiriko is not X/triangle/check. She’s actually check/X/Check. She’s as amazing in poke comp as she is dive even more so when you are good at her kunai
I mean... you could break through paper if you threw the rock hard enough. I can't see an argument for the other two scenarios though. How does imagination affect your logic when choosing a team comp?
Nice video but I question putting rein, zarya, orisa and Cassidy as “playable in dive”. If my team picks these it’s a 95% loss chance. I’d also argue some other minor ones like Kiriko is playable in poke due to high damage at range, and bap not playable in dive due to low mobility and difficulty hitting heal on mobile heroes. Also having the orange triangle and red triangle being unrelated yet similar colour and same shape makes the graphic more difficult to read. Maybe something different like a blue circle would be beneficial.
Honestly rein can pin in, which can be a bit of a troll, but coordinated dive teams can maybe make it work. It’s definitely not ideal, but i guess that’s why theres an orange triangle there. For zarya while she has little mobility herself, her bubbles can actually really aid in like a genji dive or something of the sort, hence the orange triangle once again. For cassidy, the best i can come up with is that he can help peel his backline against an enemy dive, so the frontline tank and other dive dps don’t have to worry about backline so much, and so they can dive more aggressively themselves..? Idrk, i kind of agree with you on the cassidy being a bit questionable having an orange triangle on dive, but i mean i guess there’s some merit to it
I feel like your new definition of main vs flex support doesn’t really work. You say flex supports make the opportunity for picks and plays but show clips of Lucio who is an aggressive main support when utilized best. That’s why I tend to classify it based off of whether their ult tends to be offensive or defensive. While this tends to not consider using ults like valk, rally, or beat to open a fight, for the most part they are reactive ults. It also classifies Zen as a main support, but considering he’s always played with an Ana or Baptiste I think it’s fine to say he’s an offensive main support like Lucio.
I feel like I relearned something and then it was completely thrown out when the chart came up. Like the chart doesn't feel like it reflects the points made prior in the video about what makes a character good in a composition type. Maybe its just me idk.
As a tank player i just got countered pick every time, originally going rein vs zarya, enemy team switch to Rama & bation & reaper, i still winning enemy tank go orisa
I feel as though the chart you made misses the point of the chart. It was supposed to look into how a character works with their 4 other teammates against the other team of 5, the whole macro of the game. But the chart treats each individual hero in a vacuum, based on their playstyles. Most notably Widowmaker. She indivdually plays in a poking manner, staying back and shooting from afar, and a full team of 5 widows would definitely all play in a poke playstyle. However, when played, she works great in brawl and dive as a consistent long ranged threat, that can pick off enemies that her team pushed out from behind cover. The inverse is true too, flanking heroes can play on brawl and poke comps very well, forcing cooldowns, diverting attention, getting stray picks, all benefitting the rest of the team. This makes the chart fundamentally flawed, and would leave people clueless as to how the game actually works. Sidenotes, you mentioned how the 3 team comps have been around since the start of overwatch... but there are no tanks that were in the game on release that function for poke? Also, you forgot roadhog... and his pal junkrat is perfectly compatible with poke. And why don't you just use the terminology of main support and off support that everyone else uses? That just causes confusion.
great vid just subbed but i think the ashe can be used in every compistion not just poke. coach gun helps her get easy movement with dynamite for crowd control
I'm curious why Briggette is considered incompatible with poke. isn't dive the main way to dismantle a poke composition, and on top of that, isn't bap brig one of the highest-volume healing duos in the game?
It's specifically in reference to her individual playstyle in executing poke. Brig is definitely more dependent on the enemy composition than the ally composition for sure.
Symm being trated as bad into poke is a straight up incorrect statement. She is very good at playing with and countering poke comps She is too fragile for brawl usually, but her ability to create crossfore angkes and to hold those angles is amazing. She can also skip open areas (Symm is sleeper OP in corcuit royale cuz of that) Edit: Symmetra was meta in double shield... Which was by your wirds a poke comp.
@@richy4292 I did. He listed symmetra as a maybe on poke and ideal in brawl... Whike the reality is actually the reverse. She doesnt "need to adapt" she excels.
You just need to change the terms. Just like the soft support and hard support in Dota 2. I think those terms would better translate their roles. Flex was used for players who were able to Flex between picks. Not necessarily for the heroes perks or gameplay style. The gameplay style was just a result of them not being as strong as Mercy or Lucio. Now everything is confusing.
I am sure most of these are true but I have a feeling Brig can be used in Poke as a Dive deterrent. In a poke v poke situation ya Brig is bad. For brig I feel it more about what you are playing against than synergy. If you had to look at your team in a bubble I would say Brig is just playable in all. Poke as an anti closing distance hero that can pack if needed, rush down as a 2nd aggressor with aoe heals over time, dive as back line defender with ranged repair packs for dive heroes to go in deep.
1:19: Illari listed as Flex Support. 11:07-11:20: Illari listed as Main Support and never overlapping with Flex Support. Did someone miss this detail upon review before publishing? Or is there something actually behind this seeming discrepency?
Overwatch, what my friends and I call CounterWatch... has been referred to as a big game of rock, paper, scissors by one of my friends who stopped playing years ago. I found this funny because since the beginning it's been like this. 7 years later... nothing has changed lmao
This is completely incorrect, it has 0% to do with aiming what are you talking about, thats dps logic. main supports offer high healing and stay with the team, they can still have utility. (Ana, Bap, Kiriko, Illari, lifeweaver, healing moira) flex supports offer lower healing and offer other utility, and don't always need to stay behind the team, brig is at frontline sometimes, lucio too, and mercy is flying everywhere babysitting the team and reviving, zen can be close to the frontline to apply discord and be prepared to ult (brig, lucio, mercy, dps moira, and zen).
I may be biased as a Lucio one trick but I personally see him as being pretty good in poke and am pretty sure he got played during double shield for the same reason being he can speed the team to another position or away from the enemy if they're running dive but I will admit he's primary fire is pretty bad for poke even though it has no damage fall off
@@ELI-521 I guess is it is more of a hybrid comp but he still does work better than most people say he does in poke and also the comps are don't always play out as the are made to in theory eg lucio was in the reaper doom version of double shield and they themselves aren't listed in poke either but their purpose in it was to be in the enemy's face and not behind shields like bastion mei comps where lucio didn't get played. I might not be saying it right but what I'm meaning is that your right but he still works in version of poke that lean more in to poke while still being hybrid instead of having bap winton mei which is definitely a hybrid. sorry for the long reply
Flex isn’t played for utility main is so she wouldn’t be that. In the vid krow mentions carry potential but to dumb it down he really means healing and dmg output which would make her flex. Hope this helps 😊
For the record... Main Support refers to the support who doesn't switch off of support/their hero as they're core to the team composition being played... Flex support is the opposite and "flex's" to whatever is most beneficial to the team... It has never had anything to do with pick/carry potential... Nor does it have anything to do with healing ability or skill requirements... That idea is just blatantly wrong. The terms were used before role-lock was a thing back in 2017 and you'd have mixed combinations like 1 Tank, 3 DPS and 2 Supports. Ana would be a flex support because she would flex to another role or hero to suit whatever the team needed. Lucio is a main support because he was core to a team strategy, i.e. Rush required Lucio to enable his tanks to get into their effective range. But in no world has Mercy ever been called a main support xD She's never once been core to any team composition, but rather is picked for the utility they provide. Mercy is required for strategies like Pharmercy or to pocket a DPS, but take those DPS out and the support will switch off too. But otherwise the rest of the video is more or less accurate. You probably should've emphasise how important map geometry is for specific comps. You don't just counter-pick Rush because the enemy is playing Dive on Gibraltar... That'd just be trolling. You would match the enemies Dive instead. The general idea is decent for people wanting to learn the game at a higher level, I mean, the game fundamentally hasn't changed in 7 years so there's plenty of info out there. I'd just do a bit more research on what specific terms mean instead of changing it to whatever you want because you didn't know. The charts also need several changes... Rein being playable in Dive made me laugh a lot xD
i personally classify flex support as support who are more utility focused than heal pumping focused, like, you choose ana to use sleep or nano or anti nade. you dont necessarily choose ana to keep your teammates alive like you would kiriko.
@justaguy1304 I disagree that only offensive abilities count as utility. Also if you aren't getting picks on kiri and are only trying to keep ppl alive you should just play lw or mercy
@@superduper4696 I didn’t mean only offensive abilities count as utility, I just meant flex supports are supports who are useful for their abilities that aren’t related to healing or keeping your teammates up
@@justaguy1304 main support is played for their utility and not flex. Ana is indeed played for heals and dmg that’s what makes her a flex support lmao
Idea, flex support that have no healing. They now give alternate benefits, like lucio only giving speed..... or making zen become a burst damage oportunist.... we could even bring some dps to this category, if you reduce torbs turret range and make him into an anti flanker instead of anti air.
Why isn’t Brig compatible with poke? I’ve had great success playing as part of a poke comp against a non-poke enemy team because her kit allows her to really reliably peel and defend high ground. In poke V poke then she’s bad but in any other scenario I think she’s pretty excellent
She's bad at poking, that's it. She's good at denying an enemy hero access to the backline, so she could be played in poke but has too find usefulness in the comp (always health pack your DPS or second support, you should have a flex support that heals the tank, unless you're playing Brig + Zen then you should look for aggression and proc inspire all the time, and allow your Zen to be a raidboss) We've seen Brig in every comp in the game so far because of how she works and her overall tankiness as a support
Ok I feel vindicated for saying Ball is a Poke hero now. Not that he fits the poke stereotype, but he does well in poke matchups by keeping fire off his allies and giving them opportunities to snipe displaced or distracted enemies.
I'm only Masters 5, but if you're in GM and you're just a one trick hero (Mercy in last clip) and basically cause your team to lose because you can't do anything, but play one character then you should stop playing in general. Cyx is a T-500 Hog player, and despite how good he is, he knows to swap to Zarya or JQ when he realizes the problem is him. There's 38 heroes for a reason, at least learn how to play 3 from the class you typically play as....
Counter picking is essentially rock paper scissors, but at the same time if you get good enough at a hero, you can essentially become a rock so large no paper can cover.
Or scissors so sharp they cut rocks
Why’d you go with refining scissors?
@@notcharles625 Well why not they're one of the three
@@Sidus666 you could sharpen paper 😔
@@notcharles625 but in rock paper scissors paper does not cut, it covers - so if you follow the ops idea of being so good at a hero that you can work around a counter, in RPS it would be an equivalent of an uncoverable rock, paper so hard/thick that it cannot be cut, or scissors that are so sharp that the rock can't dull them but instead gets cut itself.
Something that I feel hasn’t been mentioned yet in these videos is the significance of a DPS hero’s effective range. The reason why certain heroes are categorized into these playstyles is because their kits and effective ranges match the playstyle. In Gold ranks, I feel like building good team comps rarely happens, so a general rule of thumb that’s safer is to pick your DPS heroes to counter the effective ranges of the enemy and fill ranges that your team lacks or double down on the space that you do control.
The ranges are pretty much: Close, Medium, Long, Far. Some examples of that being: Tracer, Cassidy, Ashe, Widowmaker in that order I think.
Keep in mind I’m not a high elo player, but this is advice I’ve been given from friends that have played for a long time.
That's actually really great advice for a large chunk of the player base! Thanks for sharing this :)
@@KROW_OW Hey, no problem! Thanks for making this video, it does a very good job breaking everything down!
effective range for any hero, is huge. it's a big part of team synergy
Yep, don't run reaper tracer into a pharah comp if your supports and tank aren't hitscan. The funny thing about being a one trick is that if you want to win you can't one trick.
@@gawizard4980 false
Ya know, Blizzard stated that they wanted to lessen the counter pick need in the game. Overwatch 2 feels waaay more counter pick based than Ow1 though... Which sucks Because you rarely get to enjoy the character you want to play the whole match, or you have a disadvantage
Or team assisting the player so they aren’t so hard countered.
I think in OW2 it’s also easier to be countered and not notice though. It might be because I’ve gone up in rank substantially since ow2. After a match I’ll realize I wasn’t getting as much value as I thought. Maybe I use to think I was a better player then I do now too.
Unless you play a hero like Ana, who can be good in basically any situation, lol
@@MLPderpy732Yea anas nuts, idk if shes TOO good or they want to powercreep the other supports to be as good as her
@@devlintaylor9520 idk, she’s been getting nerfed almost every patch, lol
@@devlintaylor9520nah it's just the other supports aren't as proactive as her. All the other supports except lucio speed, zen discord, and brig are very defensive(brig is more of an escort/distraction like "best defense makes a great offense" style). Even bap, illari, and kiriko some of the arguably strongest dps style supports are very defensive in their abilities leading to extremely strong heals and survivability creep. Mercy does damage boost but after a certain skill threshold might as well take a kiriko or bap instead.
as a tank main its so infuriating rn, either I can play orisa and basically afk with the enemy orisa (they have to play orisa if I do) and pray my team win the 4v4 or i can play any one else, get discorded/hacked and focused, or the enemy switches to orisa and bullys me till I swap and do that bs again
tank is a fucking nightmare right now
What most of my matches look like anymore is I start out on rein/Winston, win 1st fight, they go orisa, I go zarya after getting rolled, they go rein or ram to counter zar, I mirror the rein, mtd and either win or if the match is long enough they go orisa again and the cycle continues
Dva is even worse. The moment you do anything, the enemy tank just swaps Zarya like 9 times out of 10. That, and her playstyle is really stunted with 5v5 making even playing her unfun.
@arakami8547 idk man I actually disagree with this one. On maps where I personally play dva there is so much highground I never get forced off by zarya. Also Winston counters zarya and I love Winston so I don't mind
@arakami8547 I also disagree that she is stunted by 5v5. Dva is incredibly strong since she can kinda do everything. She can peel, dive, hold a frontline, control flanks, control highground, cancel ults, etc. There are definitely tanks that can do some of those things better, but the fact that she can do all of them makes it feel like she is almost always a good pick.
I think the red triangle specifically should have been marked a bit differently. As it is now, it winds up preventing you from marking if the character is good at that role. Maybe changing the background of the cell to indicate a counter would work better? Then you could have Brig with a "counters dive" background and a good at dive checkmark. It's a little jarring to see "Ball counters poke" and also "ball is good in a poke comp" without seeing that laid out in the chart.
I think that flanking is often misinterpreted as always dive. Dive flank’s goal is usually to get picks by surprising targets from multiple angles, but Poke flanks and rush flanks can be used for different purposes. For example, rush flanks like rein/bastion can result in picks, but usually exist to force the enemy away out of position. Being sneaky isn’t as important since they gain space using their threatening aura. As another example, poke flanks like soldier/sym can pump out constant pressure from alternate angles. This is usually effective at creating crossfires on the enemy team. The largest weakness with poke or rush flanks is getting out safely. Since those heroes have less mobility than dive they should only go on flanks with a plan B.
I am GM but team composition is a weakness of mine so please feel free to add anything that I may have missed.
This is an awesome explanation 👏 I hope more people see this comment
As a soldier main great explanation of what we do. Basically just taking focus away from the team. Giving the tank and supports more freedom to make plays.
Krow made a whole video just to flame a one trick gm mercy
I would say better is paper being poke and rush being rock for alliteration and dive being scissors because quite literally you try to cut or divide the team’s attention: the counters also still align, much easier way to remember.
Gm pharah 1 trick here, pharah can 100% be played in dive, in fact thats the most fun comp i play her in. She has such explosive mobility that allows her to take aggressive positioning along with dive heroes and playing with dive her allows her to have more pressure on her counters as well as suplementing a lot of the consistent damage that some dive heroes lack. As long as you can translate good fundamentals into 3 dimensions, playing pharah in dive is a really good application of her kit.
ye came to comments to say pharah is dive. yeah she pokes during setup/rite b4 initiating but in a poke v poke matchup she cant do anything w/o getting lucky or closing distance to dive
The moments I saw a ❌ on Phara Dive.
I took a long break from Overwatch but now that pharah has a horizontal dash, she can absolutely dominate in Dive and I'll go as far as to say Dive is the best comp to play pharah
I think you screwed up the thumbnail lmao
✂️(paper)
Lol
✊Rock
✂ Paper
🖐️ Scissors
🤣🤣 gosh I was hoping people wouldn't notice
That's hilarious, I didn't notice before looking again 😂
Main healer vs Off healer still covers that dichotomy
Main healers primarily sustain a team while Off healers primarily provide utililty
Neither dichotomy works 100% of the time, but Main/Off healer duos will generally be more successful
No one is playing Lifeweaver with Ana, moira, or Bap because LW already meets the healing needs of the team, so enables Lucio/Brig/Zen/Illari to peel and worry about healing less which is how they’re optimally played.
I could go way more in depth, but the point is Main/Flex support is only used in GM1/T500/OWL where people take less damage whereas the other 99% will contribution significantly more with comps using main/off healers
As a Doomfist one trick in low elo, I can attest that you can get over the rock paper scissors by playing really well.
However, it’s been increasingly frustrating that game after game, once the enemy sees me playing Doom, the enemy counterswaps to a more brawl-type comp and I can never play the usual dive playstyle that Doom is good at. (Especially since nobody in gold knows how to play with Doomfist to begin with).
Pro tip, don't follow the chart to a T. recognize what works and what doesn't. Kiri for example does work in poke comps decently well and rush comps she can be strong. rein works with poke comps most of the time as well. Dva works in rush comps aswell. mercy can work in rush comps. zen works in rush comps just as well as in dive (I would even say better). Hanzo can work with dive comps depending on the map. Junkrat works pretty damn well in rush comps and can work on poke comps depending on the map. Echo works really well in rush comps. And Tracer works really really well on rush comps. This is coming from a multiple time gm player so no I'm not just talking out my ass
The resaon i accept flex/main support is that whenever there are 2 main supports on a team its basiaclly an instant loss, it helps to think of that way when chooisng a hero to fit my comp
I think there's a little more to it then just team synergy. Certain characters are capable of being independent, or given 1 teammate being unkillable (Ana brig, pharmercy). I can't speak for high levels, but in my games we found that doing a 3 man bunker and a 2 man roaming unit is very effective. The 2 man needs to be able to get kills though, but by pocketing 1 DPS and letting them cook the enemy is split or else it's the same thing as ignoring a turret: it may not kill you immediately but it'll kill you eventually.
That strategy started as pharmercy but any dive DPS plus Ana or lifeweaver is also very strong we found. Ranged characters benefit from a brig or bap and are stupid hard to kill because diving one unit ignores the other, and splitting up results in multiple small fights
Great theory and way to put into visual what people are thinking when they counter pick. Well done, sir.
I like to think of what you call rush "brawl" while rush is brawl but with a lucio or a few movement heros mixed in cause I don't see a whole lot of rushing in these comps without mobility heros
In my experience, At a high level rush/brawl comps almost always include a movement hero such as lucio, queen or sym. Often multiple. Without the movement its very easy to poke and outplay, as demonstrated in the video above. so I guess your Idea of "Brawl" isnt really present in common strategy, so they are used synonymously
@foxbot7538 I feel the term common strategy is misleading as what i assume you mean by it is common sense but it is actually pretty uncommon for people in ranked to ever run thought out comps, even in high elo. Plus there are plenty of brawl comps that don't use lucio and instead of closing the distance they camp the objective with a more bunker playstyle that I still wouldn't classify as true bunker or poke since they don't have much range. These comps may not be very strong but are pretty common in ranked. I feel brawl is a better umbrella term for these and rush as both have the objective to brawl, but only rush wants to run at the enemy
@@foxbot7538 It used to be called brawl, and yeah it needed speed. Rush came up with the grouped up dive comps, like lucio, moira, reaper, winston stuff.
Nice video. I like the theory but am a little skeptical of some of the classifications. I play flex support mostly so that's where I noticed some things. Most people at the moment see Kiriko as the most flexible support, but it seems like you see her mainly as a dive hero. That and you have Bap being playable everywhere where most people see him as being weak in dive. And with Ana you have her as a strong dive hero but I typically see her used in lots of poke too, even rush sometimes. I feel like there are other factors such as individual hero synergies, enemy team comps, and maps that influence hero strengths in these categories.
Well, remember that each game comes with a different context. Kiriko's playstyle naturally lends itself to Dive, and in Rush she can hit some mega fat Suzu's and Kitsunes. But if you're playing against Poke, Kiriko will often be your anti-poke hero bullying sightlines because of her cross-map headshots. You can play her on Poke and succeed, but you're not getting a lot of the value her kit brings in other comps.
People can 1-trick up to top 50, and especially on ladder the rules get looser because even if you have a poke comp that doesn't mean your team knows how to poke. In general I think team comp is overemphasized because on ladder you just can't take it too much to heart. Flexibility within one hero's playstyles is much more important than team comp unless you're stacking (which you can't even do in GM), because you have control over your own gameplay but not your team's.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u So considering all that I feel she should be strong in rush and dive but mid in poke. Whereas Bap should be strong in poke and rush but mid or weak in dive.
I'm confused that Lucio has a triangle at dive. When I imagine dive I imagine a Winston Tracer and Lucio all jumping a target at the same time. I've never seen a Brigitte do that.
@@INeed333Quid It's another style of dive that's become more popular over time. Brig pairs with a main healer like Ana or Kiriko (preferably Ana) and focuses on keeping them alive while most of the team is on the dive. It helps compensate for the weaknesses created in dive that leave your backline vulnerable. The good thing about Brig too is that she has decent mobility with shield bash so you can close the distance and go in with your team sometimes as well to finish off fights. And since armor pack healing is very quick and with her inspire having such a large AOE she is really good at healing fast paced dive comps. I mostly play Kiriko in dive but if I have the right team on the right map or against certain comps I will pull out Brig
As for Lucio I think he should be a little better on dive too but in recent time he's seen more play with rush. I think he's just a little weak right now relative to the other supports and the new dive meta has thus shifted to brig, ana, and kiriko all being stronger dive heroes. But even in early OW2 and late OW1 lucio was starting to see more play with rush. Lucio Bap paired with a Rein or something was becoming a staple rush comp.
@@jamesburnett3594I’m a brig main and I really think she’s better in poke than in dive doing what you said. My favourite brig play style is to sit on a sniper and protect them, it’s especially powerful on maps like Havana with long sight lines.
I’d also have put lifeweaver in rush somewhat, because he is really good at the poke/rush hybrid with a doom fist or a queen. Send a player in deep, pull them out, repeat.
As a one trick lucio I will say I think lucio can counter dive pretty bad if you know how to displace people and peel also poke comp is basically becoming a beat bot and then fighting with tank it’s hard asf to do especially in gm
Yeah, I feel like there used to be more peeler type lucios back in the day, but the numbers have whittled down with the increasing number of flex supports, his utility in rush, and the viability of double flex supports.
skill expression within the support role seemingly has shifted from rewarding creative playmaking and game sense, to a more watered down, less nuanced numbers game that rewards high burst healing, damage, and pick potential. In other words, in order to play Lucio at high elo, one must play considerably better than their support counterparts, who have an easier time achieving value when disregarding team play
A perfect recap of how far we've come in OW2, the same day I'm hosting a GOATS tournament 😅
I think the chart is a bit confusing as you mix the hero's own playstyle and team Synergy.
For example you put brig under the dive category, but Brig herself is always rushing with all the characteristic of a rush hero, she just synergies more with dive.
But when it comes to Ashe, you put her in not diving despite the character being played a lot of in dive, just like brig, for her ability to threaten enemy tracers.
For supports it really depends of the support duo you play.
Generally dive will be either Ana-Brig or Lucio-Kiriko, rush will be Lucio-Moira or Lucio-Bap and poke will be Bap-zen or Bap-Illari. Mercy is to be played with specific heroes, she can work in all playstyle as long as she has an Echo, Pharah, Ashe, Widow, Cassidy, Soldier, Bastion or Sojourn to pocket.
LW is sort of weird and not a very synergistic hero, but generally work in comps and map that play less grouped up, as most of its value comes from being able to lifegrip, and therefore being at a medium distance from the team.
Brig isnt a rush hero, hasnt been one since she got nerfed during goats meta, shes GREAT in dive and poke, being able to keep her ana or zen alive for ages
I actually find Pharah best or at least good with a dive comp, even if they have hitscans to shoot you down, them having a Genji/Tracer and a dive tank in their face all the time doesn't really allow them to do that. Not only that but having dive characters in your team also allows you to just go right above the enemy team for that exact reason, them unable to focus either you or the rest of your team at the same time.
re: main support vs flex support. it's my strong impression that the terms originated in the early pro scene and was simply "well we have to have a mercy or lucio, so that's our main (as in primary) support player" and then the flex support was just the one that played the rest. though at the time i think there was just 4 supports, so maybe it was "lucio player" and the rest. i dunno. i think it stuck around in pro play as sort of job titles.
in pro play (that ive seen lately) main support is just as you say (mercy, lucio, brig, and maybe LW), but i dont think it's really for the reasons you give (aim reliance). just coincidence, or things people have guessed at over time.
its none of those things. this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
it's HEALING OUTPUT. that's all. good main supports have strong access to both sustained AND burst healing. flex supports often have more utility or non-healing focused kits, and less potential for either burst OR sustained healing, while retaining decent healing in one of the categories.
@@hem9483 im sorry but thats wrong. that's not what the terms are for. they might be how some people use them now but that's not their original meaning
You can play dive with snipers in the same way you can play Ana in dive. A lot of older Overwatch dive comps used snipers to weaken or get a pick before a dive encounter. Dive can have a split team with half the team engaged in the dive and the other half sitting back abusing the space the dive creates. I do not think reaper is good into dive as well. Most comps and teams don't use reaper dive...
Also, rein and orissa are not dive...
When I see Orisa being playable in all poke,rush and dive, it worries me.
Its because of the bucket loads of healing the game has, shes able to just anchor for hours and not die, if support gets nerfed down properly, shell go back to her anti brawl niche
Based in the chart @ 8:36 you can clearly see bap is the best hero in the game and you cant go wrong picking him.
1:27 I think if you need constant healing, you’re probably playing the game incorrectly. I think that’s the biggest change from OW1. In OW2, you have to use cover more, and play more intelligently. That’s why Main & Flex Support is a better way to think about it than “healers” specially since they’re called Supports not Healers.
Yes, because there a lot cover in this game😂
@@alexvergara479 me as the tank crouching behind payload while all my dps stand out in the open and wonder why they are dying
this is the BEST recent video regarding OW 2 support, everyone else is just saying support needs nerf/is broken. thank you for this.
I genuinely only came here to tell you you mixed up the paper and scissor symbols on your thumbnail. if it's a clickbait detail, well done.
Extremely confused by pharah not being dive on the chart, pharmercy is almost strictly dive, unless this is strictly taking about solo pharah?
engaging in with pharah is almost exclusively a bad idea as her survivability increases with range
@@quanked but if you’re pharmercy you’re trying to play corners, hide behind walls and do long flanks to surprise and pick off people
@@theextramenuyou’re giving an example of a hybrid comp something Krow didn’t go over. Pharahmercy is indeed pole but they can be played in a hybrid comp that features both dive and poke. Same thing widow and whoever else
Main and flex support’s are fine. But you’ve put some flex supports in main support on ur rush/dive/poke tables. Also main healers and off healers should also be considered cause otherwise you get cursed comps like mercy zen. And in ranked not having a main healer can be detrimental which is where most people play.
Mercy zen is kinda busted on some maps tbh with poke comps
@@superduper4696 it must be pulled off really well though surely? I see there’s an exception for every comp including comps with no healing that just kill the enemy faster.
yeah he put moira and bap in flex??
@Corlwow it's really hard if the enemy has more than 1 dive hero but it's probably the easiest comp in the game on some maps
@@hem9483 moira bap definitely flex wydm?
Nice vídeo, the information is organized and explaind well so everyone can understand it.
Do you think you could ever do an open q video on what best comp hypothetically that could be? It’s definitely not as popular but I’d like to hear your thoughts
For the thumbnail btw mei's hand for paper should be on widow and widows hand for scissors should be on mei, just noticed that because tracer actually has the rock hand.
no the hands are right, because dive beats poke, poke beats brawl, and brawl beats dive. the order of Mei and widow should be switched though
My only complaint with the video is the title and the “rock paper scissors” section. In reality it’s so much more complicated than one comp “beats” another.
You might say that rush beats dive because london spitfire win every time they go against dive. In reality the reason london beats dive every time is just because they practiced against dive so so so much back in early 2022 (source backbone and christfer), not because rush has some inherent advantage over dive.
So many factors such as map, individual strength of your players, coordination, etc effect who wins a match. I don’t want people to come away from this video thinking that if the enemy goes dive they MUST go rush in order to win because that just isn’t true.
Countering in Overwatch 2 is so overrated by the majority of players and it’s often easier to just adjust your playstyle on one hero rather than switching to another. Poke can beat dive if you’re just a good sigma player that can adapt, dive can beat rush if you’re a good winston player.
Im not encouraging one tricking but seeing people obsessively counter swapping is a huge red flag of a bad player.
Edit: I think you should match your hero pick with what YOUR team is playing, not what the enemy team is playing. Just if that wasn’t clear.
Edit 2: also dva is good with and against poke
Counterpicking would be fine as a way to design the game if ult economy wasn't so important. Too much power is in ults, to the point where they're so inflexible. It would be cool to see a more flexible version of this game where ults are really more varied in power where there were more ult like Window which are strong but more tempo gainers than fight winners.
Like if blade was toned down so it felt more like Rammatras nemesis form, but was up way more often. Or like dooms current ult where he just kinda tosses it as a get out of jail free card. Of course you'd still have your big teamfight ults like Hammer
Before I start, I should note that I don't play OW, and has never played a game of OW or OW2 before, only watched videos on it.
I've been thinking a bit, about game balanced specifically. It's something I like doing, and I thought about OW2's balanced and how only having 1 Tank in the game ruined some other Tank heroes and messed up the balance in general. And I though up a solution to fixing this problem, being that we bring back 222, BUT we keep the Player Limit, the Team Limit, to 5. It'll bring back double Tanks, and have Main Tanks and Off Tanks be a thing again, but you'll have to give up a DPS or Support. The idea being making team comp all about tradeoffs, about what capability's are you willing to give up, as you can't quite have a fully balanced team that covers all your bases.
This idea isn't original, btw. I took it from Etrian Odyssey, and how in those games the balance is around having 6 characters in a team but you can only have 5 characters at any given time. So there's always some sort of gap in capabilities in whatever team your building due to not having that extra character. You might be able to mitigate that gap to some degree by using some more flexible classes, but it'll never be as good as just having a 6th character, and multirole classes kit are never as good as classes with a more focused and singular kit, as they should. And this is the basis of this idea I have, and at the very least, it'll make the game less overcentralizing around the Tank roll, and who has the better Tank and whatnot.
Once again, I should reiterate that I have never played a game of OW or OW2 before.
Off-topic Rant incoming, this doesn't have much to do with the video or my balance idea, but I'm not saying this to preemptively defend myself from criticism, I'm fine if you call my idea stupid, I'm just saying this so people will understand that I'm not pretending to know OW balancing, or act like I've played OW. I'm am NOT one to parrot what others say and feel on something just for Internet Brownie Points, and actually try to think critically whenever I can and unbiasly as one can be. And I say this because I hate people spouting shit and preaching about something they don't even believe in. I'm sick of it, and I see it happening WAY to often. Anyways, rant over.
When it comes to the issue with tank getting focused i think it mostly comes down to who your playing. If your say a hog and the enemy has a sojourn then your lack of a sheild with a massive hitbox and shorter range lets her get free charge pretty much whenever your around. But if you were say a junkerqueen going against the sojourn then yeah that headshot is gonna hit you alot harder bc of the lower hp pool but your smaller hitbox makes you a less reliable target for her to charge off of plus with no sheild she has to play closer with her projectiles to get consistent charge and your shout can both deny any dmg to you from the railgun unless its a headshot and even then its minimal, or even just dodge the shot bc of her speed boost. The new tanks, dps and supports are all built for the 5v5. Mauga has a bigger hitbox but hes meant to be a tank type bastion, snipers can burst you down with consistent headshots but up close your dmg out matches that.
With jq she was meant to be a sort of replacement to hog. She has all the aspects we liked about hog before the rework but none of the glaring weaknesses. She can pull you in, almost oneshot with axe swing, minimize dmg with her shout to survive, and has a smaller hitbox so she doesnt feel like a bullet sponge
Now, that you have discussed the picks strength/weaknesses in roles and in team, can you make a video about heroes strengths/weaknesses against teams/heroe archetypes?
I know this isn't related but: Something odd I just realized is how different language localizations have different font styles (English, Korean, Russian, etc.)
Really love these vids. Currently struggling with mechanics (really only been pc gaming for about 2 years) and learning theory in the meantime is helping move my game forward.
I often see kiri in poke comps too, but this might be because she’s overtuned to the point she can be strong in almost any scenario even if her general abilities seem intended for different uses.
The main support and flex support names are outdated because originally when they were coined they meant that flex support could flex into dps. But this is now not possible so the flex support name lost its meaning.
I like how Paper has the Scissors Icon and Scissors has the Paper Icon in the thumbnail
I'm just here to point out that the thumbnail has the scissors hand under "paper" and the paper hand under "scissors" and it's bothering me
things that I would argue are wrong with the chart:
Brig - Definitely playable with poke as an anti dive hero, so I would argue that she should be put as playable (think of bap/brig and brig/zen comps for poke which are really strong in the right circumstances)
Illiari - She is definitely best in poke, specifically off angle comps and is not that great in rush because in rush. I would argue that she should have a checkmark for poke, X for rush, and triangle for dive
Orisa - She should have an X for dive for sure, she doesn't do any sort of dive what-so-ever
Doom - Definitely still playable in dive
Hog - I completely agree that he shouldn't be on this list, dogshit hero ngl
With doom, you mean he is playable in rush? he is marked with a compatible for dive xD
oh yeah, my b@@xdkillfor34akathetroll30
Hello Krow! I am a one trick zenyatta from asia server and I would love to see more zenyatta gameplay and one trick introduction videos, thank you~
Only one correction. Kiriko is not X/triangle/check. She’s actually check/X/Check.
She’s as amazing in poke comp as she is dive even more so when you are good at her kunai
Tracer representing scissors is reall funny
I mean... you could break through paper if you threw the rock hard enough. I can't see an argument for the other two scenarios though. How does imagination affect your logic when choosing a team comp?
are you considering reworked sombra in the chart? i’m under the impression she is playable on rush now, similar to how tracer is
@kyami843goats proves you wrong and so does Atlanta reign from this seasons spring stage
Bro that pokemon mei vs widow edit was 🔥 for real
this was the video I was looking for. Thank you. Did you do one on "Game sense" or how to mentally track ults?
I love your videos man
Anyone else notice that the thumbnail says rock paper scissors but shows scissors under paper and paper under scissors?
Nice video but I question putting rein, zarya, orisa and Cassidy as “playable in dive”. If my team picks these it’s a 95% loss chance.
I’d also argue some other minor ones like Kiriko is playable in poke due to high damage at range, and bap not playable in dive due to low mobility and difficulty hitting heal on mobile heroes.
Also having the orange triangle and red triangle being unrelated yet similar colour and same shape makes the graphic more difficult to read. Maybe something different like a blue circle would be beneficial.
Thanks for the accurate and detailed feedback
Honestly rein can pin in, which can be a bit of a troll, but coordinated dive teams can maybe make it work. It’s definitely not ideal, but i guess that’s why theres an orange triangle there. For zarya while she has little mobility herself, her bubbles can actually really aid in like a genji dive or something of the sort, hence the orange triangle once again. For cassidy, the best i can come up with is that he can help peel his backline against an enemy dive, so the frontline tank and other dive dps don’t have to worry about backline so much, and so they can dive more aggressively themselves..? Idrk, i kind of agree with you on the cassidy being a bit questionable having an orange triangle on dive, but i mean i guess there’s some merit to it
i think brig goes into poke when your facing dive
Could you please explain how Illari is optimal in rush and playable in dice? I have always heard she is best in poke but bad in everything else?
I like this video but for your chart I'd recommend changing the orange triangle to a yellow one
I feel like your new definition of main vs flex support doesn’t really work. You say flex supports make the opportunity for picks and plays but show clips of Lucio who is an aggressive main support when utilized best. That’s why I tend to classify it based off of whether their ult tends to be offensive or defensive. While this tends to not consider using ults like valk, rally, or beat to open a fight, for the most part they are reactive ults. It also classifies Zen as a main support, but considering he’s always played with an Ana or Baptiste I think it’s fine to say he’s an offensive main support like Lucio.
the thumbnail makes my brain tingle
I feel like I relearned something and then it was completely thrown out when the chart came up. Like the chart doesn't feel like it reflects the points made prior in the video about what makes a character good in a composition type. Maybe its just me idk.
As a tank player i just got countered pick every time, originally going rein vs zarya, enemy team switch to Rama & bation & reaper, i still winning enemy tank go orisa
I came here to say, that on the thumbnail Widowmaker had a scissors symbol with the caption Paper.
It irked me.
Thank you
I fixed it, but maybe I should've kept it so more people click to tell me that it's wrong LOL
I feel as though the chart you made misses the point of the chart. It was supposed to look into how a character works with their 4 other teammates against the other team of 5, the whole macro of the game. But the chart treats each individual hero in a vacuum, based on their playstyles. Most notably Widowmaker.
She indivdually plays in a poking manner, staying back and shooting from afar, and a full team of 5 widows would definitely all play in a poke playstyle. However, when played, she works great in brawl and dive as a consistent long ranged threat, that can pick off enemies that her team pushed out from behind cover.
The inverse is true too, flanking heroes can play on brawl and poke comps very well, forcing cooldowns, diverting attention, getting stray picks, all benefitting the rest of the team.
This makes the chart fundamentally flawed, and would leave people clueless as to how the game actually works.
Sidenotes, you mentioned how the 3 team comps have been around since the start of overwatch... but there are no tanks that were in the game on release that function for poke? Also, you forgot roadhog... and his pal junkrat is perfectly compatible with poke. And why don't you just use the terminology of main support and off support that everyone else uses? That just causes confusion.
The paper and scissors hands in the thumbnails are switched around wrong.
I know, it made me click too 😅
I updated it to a new version, but if people are clicking on it because of the thumbnail, maybe I should switch it back LOL
At 9:33 why did you put soldier incompatible in a dive but Cass playable in a dive?
By far one of my favorite ow creator thanks for the content man
great vid just subbed but i think the ashe can be used in every compistion not just poke. coach gun helps her get easy movement with dynamite for crowd control
I'm curious why Briggette is considered incompatible with poke. isn't dive the main way to dismantle a poke composition, and on top of that, isn't bap brig one of the highest-volume healing duos in the game?
It's specifically in reference to her individual playstyle in executing poke. Brig is definitely more dependent on the enemy composition than the ally composition for sure.
Symm being trated as bad into poke is a straight up incorrect statement.
She is very good at playing with and countering poke comps
She is too fragile for brawl usually, but her ability to create crossfore angkes and to hold those angles is amazing.
She can also skip open areas (Symm is sleeper OP in corcuit royale cuz of that)
Edit: Symmetra was meta in double shield... Which was by your wirds a poke comp.
lmao imagine someone unironically saying symmetra is good
@@richy4292 I did. He listed symmetra as a maybe on poke and ideal in brawl... Whike the reality is actually the reverse.
She doesnt "need to adapt" she excels.
@@soda6457 Shes pretty okay rn if youbare competent.
@@pasteldad39 this is just not true. Shes playable in poke yea but she really excels in rush comps cause her kit is quite literally designed for it
@@richy4292 the best symemtras in the world would disagree.
Brawl is good for beamibg symm... And beaming symm is worse than orbing symm
And then YZNSA just comes in with Pharah and fucks it all up T-T
You just need to change the terms. Just like the soft support and hard support in Dota 2. I think those terms would better translate their roles. Flex was used for players who were able to Flex between picks. Not necessarily for the heroes perks or gameplay style. The gameplay style was just a result of them not being as strong as Mercy or Lucio. Now everything is confusing.
I wasn't expecting the rhythm heaven music here
Do you know the song names?
@@beckgordon3808 not all of them but if you name a specific segment of the video there's a chance I could tell you
what about at like 4 min? That one is super cool@@youcantbeatD
Dang, I'm afraid I don't recognize that one.@@beckgordon3808
Viable dive horse was news to me.
I am sure most of these are true but I have a feeling Brig can be used in Poke as a Dive deterrent. In a poke v poke situation ya Brig is bad. For brig I feel it more about what you are playing against than synergy. If you had to look at your team in a bubble I would say Brig is just playable in all. Poke as an anti closing distance hero that can pack if needed, rush down as a 2nd aggressor with aoe heals over time, dive as back line defender with ranged repair packs for dive heroes to go in deep.
Yes 100% agree with you there. She's definitely more of a hero that depends on the enemy composition more than the ally composition.
1:19: Illari listed as Flex Support.
11:07-11:20: Illari listed as Main Support and never overlapping with Flex Support.
Did someone miss this detail upon review before publishing? Or is there something actually behind this seeming discrepency?
oop, I didn't even notice the mistake until you mentioned it. That's just a mess up at the end of the video x_x
@@KROW_OW So, Illari is meant to be listed as a Flex Support, and not as a Main Support?
@@BlazeLycan Yeah, 100%
Overwatch, what my friends and I call CounterWatch... has been referred to as a big game of rock, paper, scissors by one of my friends who stopped playing years ago. I found this funny because since the beginning it's been like this. 7 years later... nothing has changed lmao
Illiari was the only character who's portrait you didn't flip for the chart
This is completely incorrect, it has 0% to do with aiming what are you talking about, thats dps logic.
main supports offer high healing and stay with the team, they can still have utility. (Ana, Bap, Kiriko, Illari, lifeweaver, healing moira)
flex supports offer lower healing and offer other utility, and don't always need to stay behind the team, brig is at frontline sometimes, lucio too, and mercy is flying everywhere babysitting the team and reviving, zen can be close to the frontline to apply discord and be prepared to ult (brig, lucio, mercy, dps moira, and zen).
3 comps?? Wait what overwatch evolving! back in the days we have to go mirror every single damn time
Just curious, I love the joke on Hog but what symbols would you give him? I'd argue he's an orange for rush and poke and a red X on dive
I may be biased as a Lucio one trick but I personally see him as being pretty good in poke and am pretty sure he got played during double shield for the same reason being he can speed the team to another position or away from the enemy if they're running dive but I will admit he's primary fire is pretty bad for poke even though it has no damage fall off
You’re speaking of hybrid comps something crow didn’t go over yet
@@ELI-521 I guess is it is more of a hybrid comp but he still does work better than most people say he does in poke and also the comps are don't always play out as the are made to in theory eg lucio was in the reaper doom version of double shield and they themselves aren't listed in poke either but their purpose in it was to be in the enemy's face and not behind shields like bastion mei comps where lucio didn't get played. I might not be saying it right but what I'm meaning is that your right but he still works in version of poke that lean more in to poke while still being hybrid instead of having bap winton mei which is definitely a hybrid. sorry for the long reply
I consider Moira as a main support honestly because of her lack of utility her ult isnt even as great as illari or Ana's baps or kiriko.
Flex isn’t played for utility main is so she wouldn’t be that. In the vid krow mentions carry potential but to dumb it down he really means healing and dmg output which would make her flex. Hope this helps 😊
Why are the paper and scissors swapped on the thumbnail?
For the record... Main Support refers to the support who doesn't switch off of support/their hero as they're core to the team composition being played...
Flex support is the opposite and "flex's" to whatever is most beneficial to the team...
It has never had anything to do with pick/carry potential...
Nor does it have anything to do with healing ability or skill requirements...
That idea is just blatantly wrong.
The terms were used before role-lock was a thing back in 2017 and you'd have mixed combinations like 1 Tank, 3 DPS and 2 Supports.
Ana would be a flex support because she would flex to another role or hero to suit whatever the team needed.
Lucio is a main support because he was core to a team strategy, i.e. Rush required Lucio to enable his tanks to get into their effective range.
But in no world has Mercy ever been called a main support xD
She's never once been core to any team composition, but rather is picked for the utility they provide.
Mercy is required for strategies like Pharmercy or to pocket a DPS, but take those DPS out and the support will switch off too.
But otherwise the rest of the video is more or less accurate.
You probably should've emphasise how important map geometry is for specific comps.
You don't just counter-pick Rush because the enemy is playing Dive on Gibraltar...
That'd just be trolling.
You would match the enemies Dive instead.
The general idea is decent for people wanting to learn the game at a higher level, I mean, the game fundamentally hasn't changed in 7 years so there's plenty of info out there.
I'd just do a bit more research on what specific terms mean instead of changing it to whatever you want because you didn't know.
The charts also need several changes... Rein being playable in Dive made me laugh a lot xD
i personally classify flex support as support who are more utility focused than heal pumping focused, like, you choose ana to use sleep or nano or anti nade. you dont necessarily choose ana to keep your teammates alive like you would kiriko.
But with kiri you often pick her for the utility of cleanse and her dmg output. Kiri is definitely a flex support
@@superduper4696 yes, cleanse, to keep teammates alive. I’m talking about abilities like sleep dart, speed boost, damage boost
@justaguy1304 I disagree that only offensive abilities count as utility. Also if you aren't getting picks on kiri and are only trying to keep ppl alive you should just play lw or mercy
@@superduper4696 I didn’t mean only offensive abilities count as utility, I just meant flex supports are supports who are useful for their abilities that aren’t related to healing or keeping your teammates up
@@justaguy1304 main support is played for their utility and not flex. Ana is indeed played for heals and dmg that’s what makes her a flex support lmao
Idea, flex support that have no healing. They now give alternate benefits, like lucio only giving speed..... or making zen become a burst damage oportunist.... we could even bring some dps to this category, if you reduce torbs turret range and make him into an anti flanker instead of anti air.
1. Lucio isn’t flex
2. The whole idea of the “support” is to heal so why remove that?
Cool but we still need Kurt the hive tyrant in overwatch
Why isn’t Brig compatible with poke? I’ve had great success playing as part of a poke comp against a non-poke enemy team because her kit allows her to really reliably peel and defend high ground.
In poke V poke then she’s bad but in any other scenario I think she’s pretty excellent
She's bad at poking, that's it. She's good at denying an enemy hero access to the backline, so she could be played in poke but has too find usefulness in the comp (always health pack your DPS or second support, you should have a flex support that heals the tank, unless you're playing Brig + Zen then you should look for aggression and proc inspire all the time, and allow your Zen to be a raidboss)
We've seen Brig in every comp in the game so far because of how she works and her overall tankiness as a support
Ok I feel vindicated for saying Ball is a Poke hero now. Not that he fits the poke stereotype, but he does well in poke matchups by keeping fire off his allies and giving them opportunities to snipe displaced or distracted enemies.
Was putting illari in the flex dps section in the playstyle/ comp chart intentional
We actually just ran out of space on the left 😆😆😆😆
Is rush the same as brawl? I’ve always heard it called brawl. If they’re different, what’s the difference?
Dude had to fix the thumbnail
I'm only Masters 5, but if you're in GM and you're just a one trick hero (Mercy in last clip) and basically cause your team to lose because you can't do anything, but play one character then you should stop playing in general. Cyx is a T-500 Hog player, and despite how good he is, he knows to swap to Zarya or JQ when he realizes the problem is him. There's 38 heroes for a reason, at least learn how to play 3 from the class you typically play as....
New sub here, awesome video, ur content it's so good, keep it up !!
Great work on the video, the edits are really nice ^^
Do we consider soldier and JQ flex supports?
Hello everyone this is YO-krow here
I love these theory videos so much