One thing that I've always seen as a missed opportunity is that they never utilize the character's ears to show how they're feeling which is normally a given when animating animal characters. The only instance I can think of is one scene in Heroes where Rouge's ears go droopy when she realized Shadow might be a robot. It's cute, why don't they do that more often?
@@highjumpstudios2384 hi is this Walmarr? I'd like to return the copy of beat the meat 4 super deluxe ultimate knockout with super powerful tabbars featuring joy can controllers. Can you direct me to the deli Isle too while you at it? You look like a fine young whippersnapper
"AcTuAlLy" There's another scene where sonic himself uses his ears to express emotions Of course it was made by marza animations (those guys are the best) It's the CG cutscene in sonic unleashed where you meet dark gaia for the first time and sonic gets the dark gaia energy sucked out of him
I feel booms expressions are structured the exact same as modern. The face design is the same, the only difference is boom doesn't look the eyes to one single expression, but I feel with new next gen hardware it'll be much more likely to see improvement like that.
I feel like the biggest reason the game was animated so well was because Big Red Button had a lot of ex Naughty Dog employees, which had a hand at the Crash and Jak games which I'm sure anyone who's played those games know how top tier the animation is
1:42:02 I think sonic prime shows how sonics modern design can actually be animated incredibly well and allow him to convey tons of emotions and expressions. I don't think sonic needs a redesign but I hope the games take some notes from prime on how to animate modern sonic characters well.
Yeah, mostly they just need to make better use of eye expressions. It’s not easy to pull off, but when it’s done well, it looks REALLY good. I think frontiers did a very good job of fixing this in its pre-rendered cutscenes
Or using the eye ridges like eyebrows. That also helps with expression. Furthermore, if they did what New Frames points out and shrink their hands and feet a bit, it can make posing even easier.
Nobody wants to 'redesign' Sonic (or at least I don't want him redesigned), I just wish that they didn't reuse the same 3D models for every Sonic game. The reason Sonic Prime's animations work is partially because they made and rigged their own 3D models for all of the characters. There's a difference between redesigning a character and updating a 3D model.
@@brandonthomas6038maybe because that’s all they got when making a tv show, if they don’t look cool to a kid. It’s a failure. you can’t fall back on whatever gameplay you got like in a video game If they were able, willing or wanted too or even had someone able to make the characters alive it would’ve happened. It’s not the character models. They have the game that they’re barely able to make feel good. Working on Sonic is a disaster Working in Sonic Team, is a death wish
TH-cam's nicest gaming personality slowly loses his mind as he looks at early 2000s Sonic animation for 5 months. Hilarious and informative video, great job to all involved!
No i hate everything about 2010s i want everything from 2000s back even stories that made me relatable delete all 2010s it is good that sonic fans says that a lot that 2000s are good or in polls they always pick 2000s instead of 2010s and fans say 06 is better than forces cuz now forces is the worst mainline sonic game and that is good thing everyone telling sega to do that the youtube videos about why 2000s games are good are coming now is great even a GOOD 06 review that talk about why 06 and 2000s good sonic is not cartoony as you think he is shonen hero for all ages even adult i am so glad characters like rouge 18 and vector 20 and big 18 exist cuz it is not only cartoony and childish
Wait, is this THE Sonic video? The one you've been researching for years now? This is going to be AMAZING in every single way. Wait half a moment while I grab some popcorn.
For anyone who's here late, I'd like to point out that this comment made by Other Video Game Animation Dan was made four hours after the first, which suggests that he came back to rewatch the video just a few hours after watching it the first time. Not that I can blame him, but still.
I had the honour of animating a in-game live event for Minecraft in collaboration with SEGA and The Hive. Your breakdown of all of the sonic games helped immensely to explain the major do's and don'ts of these characters. The reaction from Sonic fans to the live event was an outpouring of love for the visual style and animation. All of that is to say I have you to thank for that directly because of this video. Thank you for the hours you put into making it, and I am so happy to have taken your analysis of the games on board for an official collaboration. Sonic fans deserve better than what they have been dealt. You're the best.
1:34:07 The fact the animations of Sonic and Eggman's hands tilting the control stick actually conveys the direction of the beans they control is amazing.
It's particularly funny since the franchise hadn't done any really edgy moves for a while, what with the plots of Unleashed through Generations being debliberately lighthearted and cartoony and Boom being basically a playable children's television special. Like I could see early 2000s Sonic casually mentioning torture and global war back when Shadow was assassinating the president, but it's a bit overdramatic for 2020s Sonic.
No i hate everything about 2010s i want everything from 2000s back even stories that made me relatable delete all 2010s it is good that sonic fans says that a lot that 2000s are good or in polls they always pick 2000s instead of 2010s and fans say 06 is better than forces cuz now forces is the worst mainline sonic game and that is good thing everyone telling sega to do that the youtube videos about why 2000s games are good are coming now is great even a GOOD 06 review that talk about why 06 and 2000s good sonic is not cartoony as you think he is shonen hero for all ages even adult i am so glad characters like rouge 18 and vector 20 and big 18 exist cuz it is not only cartoony and childish
The motion capture in Sonic Adventure 2 was such a big turnoff for me, especially now working in a video game studio. I only see the mocap actors, and it's so bad and distracting, but it's also a reason I love it so much because it's just so ridiculous. The part about the running animation was spot on too, and I could never put my finger on it. The animation just wasn't made for the intended speed it was to be played at, which makes it looks so out of place when running in high speeds compared to Sonic Adventure 1 where the animations are catered to the high speeds. Also the other one thing that I can't stand in some of the 3D Sonic games is that they don't switch models for the characters when they spin jump. Instead of using a dedicated ball model, they'll just use the regular character model and attempt to pose them into a ball shape which ends up leaving the silhouette in a bizarre shape, and the pivot of the spin makes it look even worse. This is really apparent in Sonic '06 and Sonic 4. Thankfully they've switched to a more solid ball shape in the more recent games.
Me in the beginning of this: oh this looks cool I'll check it out Me, an hour in: How could they add hip rotation to the third running animation and yet the first two don't even have bounce?!
@@RandomNameLastName811 this video is nearly two hours long, and besides what would the comments have to talk about if he had mentioned every detail when the comments have to find 20 more details he missed within each game?
Me an hour and a half in: I think we can can see why NFP like Rise of Lyric’s animation, but the only thing missing is that he forgot to mention the problems with its animation like its rendering looking completely off.
I think I've figured out why Unleashed's running looks way better than previous attempts; it's because they finally realised that at the speed Sonic travels, he won't always have a foot on the ground pushing him forwards, he will spend some time floating very briefly as his front foot comes down and makes contact with the ground and each step will launch him forward a few metres as a time, making his strides larger to cover more ground, almost as if he is skating. Previous games pushed him to have more natural short stride which is where the issues with the sketchy vibrational look where they just ramp the normal animation up in speed instead of giving the faster speed it's own animation set. It also helps that they finally realised that at high speed he should act more like a vehicle than a person, and smoothed out running looks more believable at those speeds. It makes a lot of sense from a physics standpoint, Sonic is moving so fast that his feet are purely pushing him forward, not upwards. He's leaning so far forwards that all momentum is forward, and once he gets up to speed he's much more stable and only moves upwards a little bit.
The fact that he did this for over five months and probably on his own and then afterwards adding subtitles to the 1 hour 45 minutes finished product is incredible.
It's an interesting phenomenon actually lol. Basically if you animate or make something that takes an absurd amount of time for a video and then publish it to a site like here, making subtitles feels like a cakewalk in comparison, all while paying attention to the work you made. But yes. The video was well edited :P
I respect this man so much. He’s spent literal years studying a game series he doesn’t even like that much to make a feature length video that is firm, fair, and respectful towards people who might like the games he’s criticizing.
42:52 Likely someone has already commented this information, but i think a BIG reason they used so much mocap for their cutscene animetions is as you said, efficiency and to save development time, as SA2 had a total development team of a staggeringly low just 11 people, and only a year and a half of development time from start to finish, frankly its a marvel they did so much with the little resources they had to do it with
Very late reply, but I feel like that sentiment rings true for just about any form of art, it's a piece of advice I've given to a lot of my friends and tried to apply to my own works (albeit phrased differently, since I'm pretty sure I don't know your teacher lol)
This has to be my favorite video on the Internet right now. As an animator (though not professionally) and as a Sonic fan (er, somewhat professionally), I found myself not just agreeing with every point made in this wonderful, masterfully-crafted analysis/essay, but even predicting some of the points I thought you, as a professional would bring up, which is a huge ego-boost for an amateur like me. It was fascinating seeing the series evolve in certain places, and devolve in others. I even learned a few things that I had seriously overlooked in certain games due to how rarely one would ever get to see those animations to begin with. That being said, Daniel, playing every main series Sonic game immediately makes you a part of the community, whether you like it or not. We get together and have eggs every Tuesday, so see you then!
This video is incredible, explaining a lot of the animation in Sonic games in words I never knew how to put together until watching this. Looking forward to watching a lot more of your stuff!
"Oh, hey, he did a Sonic video!" *notices something at the end of the intro* "He did... _All_ of the Sonic videos." I thought you weren't supposed to upload much!
Pump action could be applied to any gun. You can easily have a pump action rifle. It's just that most rifles favor bolt action since it takes up less space and also less movement. Shotguns usually are pump action because shotgun shells are pretty heavy and moving them with a bolt requires quite a bit of strength which makes moving it quickly somewhat awkward.
It _could_ be applied to almost any gun... but that's not a fictional gun Shadow is holding. It is, almost exactly and with striking visual realism, a Heckler & Koch MP5A3. Even if it wasn't a specific real gun, just having it look like a realistic submachinegun makes chambering a round in that way very weird. Either make the gun look unrealistic, or make it a realistic gun that actually works that way, like a shotgun. Come to think of it, why are there no shotguns in that game? Seems like a natural fit if you're making... that game.
As a Sonic fan, this was an absolutely fascinating video. Very well articulated, refreshingly neutral, and incredibly informative. I feel like I learned so much about what makes animation work well or poorly. I would love to hear your take on the Sonic Advance trilogy, since the animation there, at least to my eyes, is fantastic.
"refreshingly neutral" I was thinking of that while watching. I know there's a lot of really passionate people in the fandom, and so I can imagine that having discussions and conversations tackling subjects like this, and finding anything even remotely resembling objectivity within the fandom must be pretty difficult and rare. Sometimes, the perspective of an outsider without personal emotional investment can clear the air a lot.
there are other games on the gamegear and the dreamcast he missed too, like sonic labyrinth and sonic shuffle. the sonic riders spin offs would be nice to see too
@@the1whoplayz what do you mean? He talked about good things and bad things, sometimes within the same game; he never insulted SEGA or anyone else - like, is that not neutral? What's your point here, genuinely asking
I think the first 3D sonic should have been something like Sonic Secret Rings just with a bigger budget and more polish. But with the same basic gameplay and limited options. I think the main reason Mario 64 has aged as well as it has is because it is a very basic game and so Nintendo could focus on making that basic gameplay work as well as possible.
I love how much this guy cares for Tails lmao. "Give this kid a break, it's his first day and he's very smol" "Because he's little and he's sweepy" Adorable.
My siblings’ reaction when looking at tails was: My brother: who’s that girl? My sister: why is that dude following me!? My other brother: hmph hehe Me: 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
Tails is my favorite character in the franchise, and that's sad considering that his character has gone downhill lately. In Sonic Lost World, the writers were able to make Tails unlikeable. HOW, AND WHY?! He's the most likeble character, so why? It's sad, honestly. 😞
I love it! Especially for how much it has in the time he had! Edit: Yes i had to edit this cause i thought it was him talking about his own vid. Love both ya guys vids!
@@timothymclean Theres probs a Society of Dans trying to overthrow a monopoly over the internet. I can just imagine a weekly Discord call about how many new subs they got. XD
19:57 This is somewhat what the team was going for when they were designing Mighty. Originally, Sonic was gonna be playable, but this was changed mid-development (for what reason, I don't know). So, they basically redrew all the sprites to be Mighty instead of Sonic.
Unleashed really does feel like the point where they remembered Sonic is a *cartoon,* and not just in the animation; it feels like the first Sonic game in forever to have a genuinely funny and goofy sense of humor throughout. Words could not express my delight upon getting my first E rank, and being "rewarded" with the game's main theme as performed by a horrifically out-of-tune high school marching band. Just, so silly, and so fun.
Personally, I loved Unleashed the most out of all the games. Just a slight touch up on the cutscenes between zones, and it would’ve probably been the best animated Sonic game released to date
this so called "mascot suit problem" is basically the entire reason why everything about Jump Force characters look awful, they really do look like people wearing a costume pretending to be those jump characters
It also has a massive issue with its realistic art style. Why give the game a realistic art style when literally nobody, including the OCs that supposedly live in this world, have a remotely realistic art style? It just felt like a terrible design choice. The game already has a case of art style clash thanks to the origins of the characters, why make it worse by attempting to unify them all under a realistic style that not only makes everything look even worse, but also served to do nothing but lower the game's framerate.
Yeah, it would have benefited from simpler, cartoony graphics, this would do justice to the characters' animated roots. But instead they gone for a realistic approach that doesn't make any sense since none of those characters came from a photorrealistic artstyle.
THANK YOU for bringing up the "they look like humans trying to move in mascot suits" issue. That's bothered me for so long, and I haven't had a good method to express it until now.
@Xavior no, they still do. But they made enough progress with it in animation for a long time, they've found a way to use that a lot to make it seem un-detected with it.
@@sanicmovie4894 well it's not in the video, but why do you think forces wasn't really a good game? it contemplates bad facial expressions and bad cartoony animation
SA2 does have smear frames in the Dreamcast version. but they are glitched in the ports. lots of visuals are actually broken in SA2 post Dreamcast. there's a whole video by cybershell comparing the ports issues visually.
so many of the problems of the current games' animation could just be solved if they MOVED THOSE DAMN EYEBROWS. the lack of eyebrow movement removes so much potential expressiveness from the designs. the CG cutscenes in the modern games show how well it works when implemented. as a fan, it's literally all i can see when i watch the recent games' in-game cutscenes now.
The Archie Sonic comics, and probably the recent series as well, got an incredible amount of mileage out of the modern designs and I'm sad the games never met the standard they set.
@@reedtheracco0n Well they overuse bandages and of course they changed some things that didn’t need to be changed (mainly talking about knuckles here). While I agree the models aren’t horrible, they’re definitely not close to the best
I completely agree, and it looks like, at least from that footage, that the training the top tier actors go through is intense. You basically have to learn to exaggerate every movement. It's like from the LOTR documentary about how they detail how the actors had to force emotion through the heavy prosthetic makeup in order for anything to show.
@@TheFrantic5 To be clear about this, Disney characters learn classical miming as part of their training, and go through rigorous hours of physical character study. It's a surprisingly deep and unappreciated art.
It actually stood out to me from that clip; the real-life Minnie looked more convincing as a cartoon character than the ACTUAL CARTOON CHARACTERS in Sonic 06. Very ironic.
1:39:54 "The fact that this series probably won't revisit this sort of stylish animation for a long time, if ever, makes me sad." **Insert image of Mercy giving out her hand except it's Sonic Prime**
@@krugerofcause9048 part of it is also because of Ken Penders. For whatever reason, when all his shenanigans ended, SEGA dictated that Sonic couldn't be so emotional (aka expressive) anymore, and... I don't get it, why was that a thing?
@@liaminator4950 just apply some havok physics engine and you're good to go. ... now I want to see Sonic's corpse freak out like Dark Souls' corpses do
The thing is, I'm a writer, not an artist! I can barely draw a stick figure that looks good I let my brother take that role! Its still fascinating to get bits of insight into creation though.
Do I keep coming back to watch this feature length movie. Yes, yes I do. And that says volumes about how friggin awesome Dan (and Carrie) are at making informative but entertaining videos
Me: I don't have time to watch this movie my friends have been telling me to for years Also me: Oh cool a New Frame Plus video! I have plenty of time for that!
Indeed, since they're handheld games I know they weren't within the scope of this video, but I really would like to hear what Dan thinks of the animation in the Sonic Advance trilogy
23:55 I'd be surprised if nobody has mentioned this already, but Hades (and other games by Supergiant) actually uses pre-rendered sprites like DKC and 3D Blast. The sprites just have enough resolution/frames/angles that you can't really tell in practice. Zagreus has something like thirty different directional variants for each animation.
No i hate everything about 2010s i want everything from 2000s back even stories that made me relatable delete all 2010s it is good that sonic fans says that a lot that 2000s are good or in polls they always pick 2000s instead of 2010s and fans say 06 is better than forces cuz now forces is the worst mainline sonic game and that is good thing everyone telling sega to do that the youtube videos about why 2000s games are good are coming now is great even a GOOD 06 review that talk about why 06 and 2000s good sonic is not cartoony as you think he is shonen hero for all ages even adult i am so glad characters like rouge 18 and vector 20 and big 18 exist cuz it is not only cartoony and childish
Ah yes, "They've been torturing him for months!" Course when you actually see him in his cell it seems like that "torture" has consisted of depriving him of chilidogs for a couple months.
Sonic Unleashed was such a massive improvement in every single way, even with the Werehog levels. The animation and gameplay were honestly hundreds of times better than they were in Secret Rings, and it's still a really fun game to replay. Sonic Team tends to get rushed a lot, but Sega usually gives them more time after they make bad games. It wouldn't be very smart to just let your series die due to poor quality, so they make a good game in between to prevent that. They still *do* rush out games though. By the way, I edited this. It was worded really poorly.
@@mr.marshmaloman2867 I honestly think it would place at second for me since I feel generations beats it by a bit because of the entire game being great while the werehog parts did bring down the game by a very small amount, but they were still really fun, but the tornado sections are the reason that I feel that generations is a little bit better (i actually don't agree with this reply i made)
@@mr.marshmaloman2867 the story, gameplay, challenge, length, uniqness, animation, beauty, and music were all so brilliant. It is also my favorite Sonic game, I loved Unleashed so much for all the said reasons. I could explain more if you want, but I have done so too many times on TH-cam.
I'd really love to see you analyze the animation in Sonic Frontiers, because there's some REALLY good stuff like the first encounter with Giganto, as well as some really bad stuff like the optional side story conversations that bring to mind SA1, with characters simply interpolating between a few set poses
There’s also the interactions between Sonic and Knuckles, and Sonic and tails, where Sonic’s expressions really shine thru in a way we haven’t really seen before. And Sage, ironically, is also quite expressive feeling
The latter is normal in larger games, you'll see that kind of standing around and just talking in like the Witcher. Cus having personalised animations for every chat would make the game's cost balloon. Both time and money-wise.
I really like how are very upbeat when discussing the shortcomings; like "the people who worked on this probably went on to do more amazing work, but in this particular instance it was lacking". It's encouraging in a "your earlier attempts don't define the rest of your life" while also examining the issues in each game.
It's kind of insane how a character has managed to be THIS successful and relevant for 30 years due almost exclusively to his fantastic character design. Obviously the first few games are great and the animation is killer, but even his bad games manage to be charming because the design philosophy for this series is so appealing, as well as the absurd amount of personality they're capable of injecting into each one.
Sega keeps him relevant by constantly pumping out sideband shovelware for him. They've done this since day 1. Theoretically the main games are much better but they usually show signs of rush too.
Why is no one talking about the shadow scene? Like am I the only one for whom that hits my sense of humor just perfectly? "this time we're giving the grouchy hedgehog a gun!" It's perfect in so many ways.
The phrase “nowhere to go but up” has somehow never worked in the Sonic franchise. when the Sonic franchise goes 1 step forward, it’s impossible to tell how many steps forward or backward it can go. There is almost no way to guess what positive or negative thing will stick.
Honestly, I think Sonic '06 was the only "nowhere to go but up" in the franchise, as the sheer awfulness of that dumpster fire has arguably never been topped.
I absolutely love that the Fun Game/Good Animation graphs you showed actually lined up with what you said in the video. Most people would probably throw up some random squiggles.
The "Mascot Suit Problem" seems to be the main cause of the janky animation in Balan Wonderworld. The pre-rendered cutscenes by Visual Works (Square Enix's CGI department) seem to be hand-animated and look great, but all the in-engine dance sequences by Arzest look like unedited motion capture data and they don't mesh with Naoto Ohshima's character designs at all...
@@TreeBranchStudios Balan Wonderworld was made by Square Enix, not SEGA and not Sonic Team. Yuji Naka hasn't been at SEGA since the development of Sonic 06.
@@chillinchum probably a bit of both. I don't think Yuji specifically would have specified that mocap be used in either scenario, hell he probably didn't direct the animation for 06 or even Balan, but he is profoundly overambitious and it's notoriously hard to reign him in according to those he's worked with, so as was the case with 06, it was almost definitely necessary to save time on completing his over ambitious hot mess of a project. .......Again.
What I think is super interesting is that he carried even more problems from Sonic over with him than the motion capture and the odd character designs (I don't know who the character designs were done by but if you squint the boy protagonist looks like Sonic, with the hair and the body proportions). I swear they even have the same run problems Dan mentioned in SA2, where the torso kind of floats around and the limbs flail about underneath them as they run! It's so weird how much of early 3D Sonic's baggage Balan carries, I'd love to see Dan play it now that he's done so much work analyzing Sonic animation!
Looks like Frontiers, despite realistic map, is leaning towards a more cartoon approach to Sonic too. Can't wait to see how they do his movements in the complete game, because this could revolutionize Sonic's Animation and Artstyle forever.
@@NO0BY. I got the game a day ago. I looked at the animation closely, and I can definitely say it is fantastic. There is a fair bit of squash and stretch, especially in combat moves where his legs and arms extend. Attacks like Phantom Rush use animation techniques and it really does feel just good to play. He's *fast,* and it feels surprisingly natural. Snappy movements and actual cutscene animation that isn't just standing around. Overall I'd say the animation in the game is a 9/10. Could utilize Cartoon Logic more, but for what we get it's great.
Sonic frontiers sonic is great,characterization and animations is some of the best we've had Also ian Flynn he's our god at this point.also prime happened and it's perfect,I wonder who wrote it- "Ian Flynn"...I told you
The cutscene animation is also great, and if I had to sum it up in a word: eyes. The big issue with a lot of previous Sonic games is that they really didn’t do much with the eyes to sell those expressions, essentially devoting a massive amount of character space to a blank expression. But Frontiers works really, REALLY hard to use those Big Ol Eyes effectively, and actually knowing when to open them, close them, squint them. You can turn off the subtitles and voices completely in many of the scenes with Knuckles, Tails, and Sage, and you still get a pretty good picture of what’s going thru everyone’s head And even tho Eggman is always good, extra kudos to that animation toward the end
i'm really glad someone is singing the praises of rise of lyric's animation. i think that good aspect of it gets heavily overshadowed far too frequently, because it is genuinely the one thing that the game did way better than its sonic team counterparts at the time.
I think it's because they used the show's animation to base it off of, and the show itself has decent expressive animation so it carried over to the game. That and the redesigns really do look easier to work with.
15:39 I believe it's a snap to get your attention, then points towards the forward direction with his index finger and points to himself with his thumb, indicating "Hey, let's get a move on, already!" Previous iterations would show Sonic being impatient, but by 3 he is pretty much like "C'mon, you know the drill! Let's go!"
I thought he was probably pointing at the level timer to indicate 'Hey, time's running out, let's GO'. Considering if you wait too long you lose a life, it seemed like a fun detail.
41:32 "Sonic characters have extremely stylised designs, & as a general rule, exaggerated cartoony characters require exaggerated cartoony movement, because if you take a cartoony character & animate them like a realistic human being, you get an effect called the Mascot Suit Problem. [...]" Thanks for unintentionally summing up my feelings about VTubers
I've noticed this effect since I was 7, watching cartoony 3D models move like normal people is very weird since you are used to it being and looking exaggerated.
Now that I'm thinking about, if I ever plant to become a V-Tuber in my free time, I'd probably want to design my avatar to avert these sort of Mascot Suit Problems. I think I should take inspiration from some robot characters, such as E-102 Gamma, E-123 Omega, or Metal Sonic. Why? Because those sorts of designs don't have a face that needs to be animated, and faces are often notoriously difficult to animate. That, or I could merely just use 2D sprites to depict my avatar like it's a visual novel.
I think that mocap could be used as a base in order to save the trouble of making the animation look smooth and real, but it should be exaggerated and cartoonised on top of the mocap, much like they did in some of the unleashed cutscenes, especially apparent in the second in game cutscene where he snaps his fingers, exaggerated but still believable
As a longtime fan of Sonic, I honestly don't know why anyone who isn't actually a fan of the series would do this. I'm glad you did, but like wow. That's some crazy dedication to your craft.
Something I think Sega needs to understand about their animal characters is that the Eye lids should not produce the emotion, the brow should, because that's how any human-like character emits emotion effectively. The use of eyelids to create emotion creates a teeter on the uncanny valley.
I've noticed this is a very common tradition in "cartoony" Japanese animation. Stuff like Doraemon and Sgt. Frog all uses eyelids to portray emotions, and you see it all over Japanese media. I've never understood why myself.
@@adlaistevenson2623 the short answer is "it's easier" the long answer is that it's a lot of work to draw/animate different eye shapes, which is what you're going to need if you want to capture the full range of eye muscle movement. stylization like in those cartoons is an acceptable solution on simple characters if it's done appealingly but appeal is pretty tough with 3d characters; you really have to put in the extra mile having more eye controls and eye shapes would be in 3d sonic's best interest, tho
@@river_brook Well, the examples I gave was from 2D animated characters, where changing the eye shape is inconsequential. It's only within the limited confines of 3D that it becomes a hassle. My point was that on Japanese cartoon characters (not anime-styled characters, but antrhopomorphic ones like Sonic), eyelids are commonly used to emote, while in Western cartoons, a much fuller range of emotions are usually employed (eyebrows, changing the shape of the eyes etc.)
It seems like it takes more effort to animate the eyebrows because it varies from game to game and the games with less polished animation tend to use the eyelids instead. In Sonic 06 they even use both, eyebrows in the pre-rendered cutscenes and eyelids in the in-engine cutscenes.
@@corvo2696 Yeah it takes more work but it looks better. That's how putting more effort into something works. Crash 4 wasn't animated in an afternoon and I doubt it was easy, but it looks AMAZING.
Too bad because of the restrictions, he didn't talk about the advance games. The animation in them are absolutely stellar, and there's a reason why they're seen everywhere in fan animations.
The dude likes Sonic. He's just ashamed to admit it since Sonic has a toxic fanbase/bad track record. No way I would make a 1hr+ video on a character I don't like.
As an animator, I cannot get enough. You put so much effort into these videos, I feel it appeals to fans of games, fans of animation, and also anybody with no knowledge on these subjects. Really impressed with your consistency!
This video was so good! Not only are you a great animator, you’re a great storyteller, teacher, and scriptwriter. The lovely bits of humor and unexpected jokes were a joy among the interesting story you wove through this lesson. I specifically loved all the analogies you squeezed in about what the things on screen looked like, they helped me understand better and were hilarious. Thank you for such an amazing experience, have a great day!
i always loved the way sonics quills get pushed inward by the wind when u boost in gens and unleashed. really adds depth to the feeling of "ur now going at mach 12"
I think part of the “mascot suit” problem is that the features on their oversized heads (like Sonic’s spines) don’t move at all. Almost as if they’re glued on rather than naturally occurring. If his spines are hair (even a weird, triangle formation of hair) they shouldn’t be completely static. They should have some sway and overlapping action affected by his movements. That’s more things to animate, but that’s partly why the Sonic Unleashed cinematic looks so good. They aren’t paper mache cones stuck to him, it’s treated as hair like it’s supposed to be.
That's kind of what he's talking about toward the end with the size of the eyes. They're so big by default that it's hard to move them. Imagine modern Sonic's eyes widening in surprise. Where do his eyebrows go? Off of his head? I mean, on some designs that could work, but his eyebrows are just a head ridge, so not here. Boom changed the shape of the eyes a bit and made them smaller, which made them easier to work with. Not saying Sonic Team couldn't be doing more with what they have, but it makes sense that they would struggle. I doubt this is the case, but I also like to imagine them secretly still being scared to do facial animation after the disaster that was Sonic Adventure's faces.
@@SeantommyE Yeah he made a good point about that. I just think other features like the spine should be mentioned. But you're right, they don't even animate the non-existent "eyebrows" in the first place, so that criticism applies to the whole face/head region.
@@SeantommyE StH's pre-rendered cutscenes already showed that the characters' brows can be extremely expressive, enough time ought to have passed for them to figure it out for real time cutscenes. Granted, it mostly works because of Shadow's perpetual angry brows but even that could benefit characters with similarly sharp eyes like Knuckles, Espio, and Vector. It might even benefit characters whose eyes are often half-lidded like Rouge or Blaze. But I agree, overall they will have to overhaul the eye shapes for most characters to allow for more expressiveness. Which is about as likely as Silver getting his own game or Blaze ever returning to a main series title considering how distinctive they are to the sonic style :(
Well, it’s not gonna catch _me_ off-guard _now._ How is this always *the* kind of comment that appears at the top in the comments preview when I’m on mobile?
Another detail I noticed, is that on the boost on Sonic Generations, his legs bend less, and they use very small stretch, but it's still there. Also his spines stick more to each other as if the wind is pushing them together.
1:08:44 Welp, one of the artists majorly responsible for Crash 4 and Spyro's redesign has recently been confirmed to be working on the new Sonic Netflix s eries. You did it lad, you manifested into existence possible future character design and animation improvement.
What ultimately bums me out about Sonic Boom is that it was directed by Bob Rafei who is an absolute LEGEND in terms of being a character animator and one of my favourite concept artists from Naughty Dog. I THINK the reason WHY the redesigns are more animator friendly is because that was the compromise his team and SEGA reached, because if you were wondering what the development was like, dig up some of the concept art for Sonic Boom: the Rise of Lyric. They were flat out going to COMPLETELY change the entire Sonic gangs look to be far less Sonic looking and far more.... I wanna say Pogo-esque Walt Kelly looking designs? Like, they were probably going to be closer to vaguely Jak & Daxter looking designs and I think the team understood the issues you raised regarding how Animation unfriendly the original designs actually are. Though the production paintings and the concept art are absolutely gorgeous to look at and it absolutely breaks my heart when you see that they clearly had ideas that looked REALLY cool. Unfortunately, due to the fact that SEGA had an unforgiving deadline and a freaking toyline of Sonic Boom to push out the door for a Christmas release, I think the poor folks at Big Red Button Entertainment to be stuck between a rock and a hard place and SEGA, rather than giving the game the time it needed to be polished, shoved it out the door incomplete. Phenomenal video for a series you REALLY didn't have to endure yourself to and man you've made me appreciate WHY a lot of Sonic animation just doesn't work. Thanks man!
I love the detail you put into this video. This is the first New Frame Plus video I've ever seen, and I think you've been hitting the nail on the head with every observation you've made. I even learned a few things about animation I never knew before! Now that Sonic Frontiers is out, we can see how the Sonic Team has worked in (or not lol) everything they've learned up to this point '' '
I think the 3D version of sonic just needs that eye to move more. I mean, look at the pre rendered cinematic on Shadow the Hedgehog, those eyes are SO expressive, no mascot suit problem there. Sonic Boom kinda got that very right as well... Damn you tho, if you didn't point it out I would've never seen it ahhaha
I don't think you understand just how hard it is to get movement like that. They have hundreds of tiny movements to make it that fluid and organic. Each moving piece needs a separate axis which greatly increases the power needed to render it.
Unleashed's opening cutscene is absolutely incredible for 2007/2008. I really wish they commissioned that studio to make at least a 90 minute Sonic movie
The closest to that was a short film made in the same storyline/universe of Unleashed. I forgot what it was called but Chip and Sonic visit a haunted house some ghosts reside in and it looks so good to this day!
He brought up Kingdom Hearts briefly and I really think Sonic Team needs to take some lessons from that franchise. It also has exaggerated hand and feet proportions, smaller cartoon characters like Donald Duck and Mickey, but they animate as well as the humans and don't look terribly out of place next to them either
@@SobiTheRobot oh lord yes, and just how the humans are stylized versus the photoreal models based on actors makes even Sora look like a different species
@@bluecanine3374 It's the same problem Mario had in the New Donk City level of Odyssey, what with the realistic humans. Even Pauline looked a little out of place and she was their mayor.
Though it's not as extreme as the Sonic characters. At least their faces are relatively normal and their hands are more restrainted. With Sonic his hands are about the same size as his head minus the spikes. Also Square Enix has the largest and most talented animation team in the bussiness.
THANK you for acknowledging the animation in Sonic Boom, it’s the one thing in that game that redeems it in any way. Terrible game, but it could have been so great!!
You know I came into this thinking it was gonna be just alot of ragging on the hilariously bad animations as we got into the newer games, but the technical outlook on the do's and don'ts and the Goods and bads listed here are so smooth and streamlined it's actually taught me a boat load As an up and budding animator, so for that, I say, thank you
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
"Give him a break. It's his first day, and he's very small." "He is little, and he is sleepy."
brilliant.
he is sweepy*
sweepy boi
I'm looking forward to hearing this quote now.
Excuse me, Tails is very smol, and he is sweepy
That's Dan.
One thing that I've always seen as a missed opportunity is that they never utilize the character's ears to show how they're feeling which is normally a given when animating animal characters. The only instance I can think of is one scene in Heroes where Rouge's ears go droopy when she realized Shadow might be a robot. It's cute, why don't they do that more often?
Yeah
That takes effort, why would they put that into a sonic game.
@@highjumpstudios2384 hi is this Walmarr? I'd like to return the copy of beat the meat 4 super deluxe ultimate knockout with super powerful tabbars featuring joy can controllers. Can you direct me to the deli Isle too while you at it? You look like a fine young whippersnapper
She also does it in the team dark intro
"AcTuAlLy"
There's another scene where sonic himself uses his ears to express emotions
Of course it was made by marza animations (those guys are the best)
It's the CG cutscene in sonic unleashed where you meet dark gaia for the first time and sonic gets the dark gaia energy sucked out of him
"But give him a break, it's his first day, and he's very small"
I love it.
"And he yawns, because he is little and he is sweepy."
Tails is _baby_
These are words to live by
Fun fact: The person who did Shadow The Hedgehog cinematics was Jeff Fowler, director of the Sonic live action movies.
Well id say he was more a team member at blur studios
That's more interesting than fun.
@@ChaossX77 how so? The sonic movie was great!
I can see the resemblance. Can't wait to see him in action in the third movie.
nice
I'm so ready to sit down for New Frame Plus: the Feature Film
This is my content now
Sonic Movie 2
I cannot believe this is almost 2 hours long!!!?!
I know right?! I'm gonna get my dinner, have drink and chill to some good, informative shit. (✿◠‿◠)--b
The Castle of Cagliostro
"Of course the world's self-described ultimate life form comes standard with heelys, are you kidding me?? *chefs kiss*" best quote
He coincidentally said that as I read this comment 😅
Considering Sonic Boom was designed to animated TV series it makes sense that the character designs were conducive for quality animation,
Boom began production around 2011 as Sonic Synergy. The TV show came later.
@@cristenerichankins5199 That doesn't mean the final character designs were established at that time. They probably weren't.
@@chuckled125 at least the show was good, for the first season
I feel booms expressions are structured the exact same as modern. The face design is the same, the only difference is boom doesn't look the eyes to one single expression, but I feel with new next gen hardware it'll be much more likely to see improvement like that.
I feel like the biggest reason the game was animated so well was because Big Red Button had a lot of ex Naughty Dog employees, which had a hand at the Crash and Jak games which I'm sure anyone who's played those games know how top tier the animation is
1:42:02 I think sonic prime shows how sonics modern design can actually be animated incredibly well and allow him to convey tons of emotions and expressions. I don't think sonic needs a redesign but I hope the games take some notes from prime on how to animate modern sonic characters well.
Yeah, mostly they just need to make better use of eye expressions. It’s not easy to pull off, but when it’s done well, it looks REALLY good. I think frontiers did a very good job of fixing this in its pre-rendered cutscenes
@@spindash64 Eye expressions, like actually being able to lower your eyelids halfway, are important.
Or using the eye ridges like eyebrows. That also helps with expression. Furthermore, if they did what New Frames points out and shrink their hands and feet a bit, it can make posing even easier.
Nobody wants to 'redesign' Sonic (or at least I don't want him redesigned), I just wish that they didn't reuse the same 3D models for every Sonic game. The reason Sonic Prime's animations work is partially because they made and rigged their own 3D models for all of the characters. There's a difference between redesigning a character and updating a 3D model.
@@brandonthomas6038maybe because that’s all they got when making a tv show, if they don’t look cool to a kid. It’s a failure.
you can’t fall back on whatever gameplay you got like in a video game
If they were able, willing or wanted too or even had someone able to make the characters alive it would’ve happened.
It’s not the character models.
They have the game that they’re barely able to make feel good.
Working on Sonic is a disaster
Working in Sonic Team, is a death wish
"I think I may have bit off too much this time."
*checks video length*
Holy christ Dan.
So excited, tbh.
Me: Oh, so which sonic games are you analysing in this?
New Frame Plus: Yes
"I've been watching for a while, wonder how far in I am."
*28 out of 105 minutes*
Literally same
He has bit off a BIT 👌🏻 more than he can chew. However, my tired, achey, arthritic brain (at 28) will enjoy watching it.
TH-cam's nicest gaming personality slowly loses his mind as he looks at early 2000s Sonic animation for 5 months. Hilarious and informative video, great job to all involved!
he did say frick... minus one point.
@@icarue993 yeah this is a Christian Channel
No i hate everything about 2010s i want everything from 2000s back even stories that made me relatable delete all 2010s it is good that sonic fans says that a lot that 2000s are good or in polls they always pick 2000s instead of 2010s and fans say 06 is better than forces cuz now forces is the worst mainline sonic game and that is good thing everyone telling sega to do that the youtube videos about why 2000s games are good are coming now is great even a GOOD 06 review that talk about why 06 and 2000s good sonic is not cartoony as you think he is shonen hero for all ages even adult i am so glad characters like rouge 18 and vector 20 and big 18 exist cuz it is not only cartoony and childish
@@fazelfarrokhi1998 What is this word vomit of a paragraph? Learn to punctuate things, Jesus Christ.
@@satelliteprime I was also unable to read it without having to literally give up.
Wait, is this THE Sonic video? The one you've been researching for years now?
This is going to be AMAZING in every single way. Wait half a moment while I grab some popcorn.
The best part is, we now know he doesn't need to play any more terrible Sonic games.
@Xavior "Yes"
@Oliver Xu “Maybe”
@Xavior Most of them are terrible, yes. And the handheld ones not featured in this video are also all terrible.
@@timothymclean Not all of them are bad
1:12:52 Using Sonic Colors' music right before switching to the disaster that was Sonic 4 is definitely one of the best baits I've fallen victim to
Fr
It made me forget that sonic 4 existed 💀
I like sonic 4
Sonic 4 has good animation yo, Dan is so wrong.
@@ThunderTheBlackShadowKitty ep2?kinda.Ep1?hell no.
_"Animation IS exaggeration"_ - I *love* this quote.
For anyone who's here late, I'd like to point out that this comment made by Other Video Game Animation Dan was made four hours after the first, which suggests that he came back to rewatch the video just a few hours after watching it the first time.
Not that I can blame him, but still.
I had to watch it in chunks, so the first comment was during my first stint, second comment was continuing ;-)
Thats what modern animators/cartoonists need to remember.
Your logo looks like a differently stylized new frame plus logo lmao
¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
I had the honour of animating a in-game live event for Minecraft in collaboration with SEGA and The Hive. Your breakdown of all of the sonic games helped immensely to explain the major do's and don'ts of these characters. The reaction from Sonic fans to the live event was an outpouring of love for the visual style and animation. All of that is to say I have you to thank for that directly because of this video. Thank you for the hours you put into making it, and I am so happy to have taken your analysis of the games on board for an official collaboration. Sonic fans deserve better than what they have been dealt. You're the best.
I'm very happy I could be of indirect help in some way!
Why are you here
@@LavaCreeperPeople why shouldn't they be?
you built childhoods
@@Auricalios minecraft channel on a sonic channel
“He does a little yawn cause he’s little and he’s sweepy”
I think I love Tails now.
I'm pretty sure Tails becomes a person's favorite Sonic character once he/she hears those lines.
Same
@@dannys8014 As a Tails fan since finishing S3&K as him, I am four parallel universes ahead of you all
I love talls He's just a Little guy
1:34:07
The fact the animations of Sonic and Eggman's hands tilting the control stick actually conveys the direction of the beans they control is amazing.
mmm beans
5000 pounds of *_beans_*
Nothing gets me more than "he's in a solitary confinement cell and they've been torturing him for months"
I fucking die every time
And when he gets out hes like "hey guys hows things? :D"
You know something is wrong when the plot of your Sonic game could be the opening of MGSV: Ground Zeroes
“None of this is good, that’s why it’s called war” - Robert E. Le- wait what’s that? That’s actually a quote from KNUCKLES the ECHIDNA? Oh ok sure
It's particularly funny since the franchise hadn't done any really edgy moves for a while, what with the plots of Unleashed through Generations being debliberately lighthearted and cartoony and Boom being basically a playable children's television special.
Like I could see early 2000s Sonic casually mentioning torture and global war back when Shadow was assassinating the president, but it's a bit overdramatic for 2020s Sonic.
No i hate everything about 2010s i want everything from 2000s back even stories that made me relatable delete all 2010s it is good that sonic fans says that a lot that 2000s are good or in polls they always pick 2000s instead of 2010s and fans say 06 is better than forces cuz now forces is the worst mainline sonic game and that is good thing everyone telling sega to do that the youtube videos about why 2000s games are good are coming now is great even a GOOD 06 review that talk about why 06 and 2000s good sonic is not cartoony as you think he is shonen hero for all ages even adult i am so glad characters like rouge 18 and vector 20 and big 18 exist cuz it is not only cartoony and childish
The motion capture in Sonic Adventure 2 was such a big turnoff for me, especially now working in a video game studio. I only see the mocap actors, and it's so bad and distracting, but it's also a reason I love it so much because it's just so ridiculous. The part about the running animation was spot on too, and I could never put my finger on it. The animation just wasn't made for the intended speed it was to be played at, which makes it looks so out of place when running in high speeds compared to Sonic Adventure 1 where the animations are catered to the high speeds.
Also the other one thing that I can't stand in some of the 3D Sonic games is that they don't switch models for the characters when they spin jump. Instead of using a dedicated ball model, they'll just use the regular character model and attempt to pose them into a ball shape which ends up leaving the silhouette in a bizarre shape, and the pivot of the spin makes it look even worse. This is really apparent in Sonic '06 and Sonic 4. Thankfully they've switched to a more solid ball shape in the more recent games.
Oh shit what's up Hyper
Woah hello
Thank you for your input; this is a great video on animation and made me think a lot about animation’s fundamental concepts!
He lives!
@Nintendo you are Nintendo, therefore wrong
Me in the beginning of this: oh this looks cool I'll check it out
Me, an hour in: How could they add hip rotation to the third running animation and yet the first two don't even have bounce?!
@@RandomNameLastName811 this video is nearly two hours long, and besides what would the comments have to talk about if he had mentioned every detail when the comments have to find 20 more details he missed within each game?
Me an hour and a half in: I think we can can see why NFP like Rise of Lyric’s animation, but the only thing missing is that he forgot to mention the problems with its animation like its rendering looking completely off.
me watching literally anything
@@kieranstark7213 rendering doesn't have to do much with the animation itself
@@Josuh True, unless it has such a strong opinion to go with it.
I think I've figured out why Unleashed's running looks way better than previous attempts; it's because they finally realised that at the speed Sonic travels, he won't always have a foot on the ground pushing him forwards, he will spend some time floating very briefly as his front foot comes down and makes contact with the ground and each step will launch him forward a few metres as a time, making his strides larger to cover more ground, almost as if he is skating. Previous games pushed him to have more natural short stride which is where the issues with the sketchy vibrational look where they just ramp the normal animation up in speed instead of giving the faster speed it's own animation set. It also helps that they finally realised that at high speed he should act more like a vehicle than a person, and smoothed out running looks more believable at those speeds. It makes a lot of sense from a physics standpoint, Sonic is moving so fast that his feet are purely pushing him forward, not upwards. He's leaning so far forwards that all momentum is forward, and once he gets up to speed he's much more stable and only moves upwards a little bit.
"Sega should really port Sonic Colors to more things"
WELL, TAKE A GUESS
He asked, and he received. But still wow- it actually happendc
@@Stag_Z yep
BOOM IT HAPPENES
that was prophetic lmao
LMAO THIS COMMENT KILLED ME HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The fact that he did this for over five months and probably on his own and then afterwards adding subtitles to the 1 hour 45 minutes finished product is incredible.
It's an interesting phenomenon actually lol. Basically if you animate or make something that takes an absurd amount of time for a video and then publish it to a site like here, making subtitles feels like a cakewalk in comparison, all while paying attention to the work you made.
But yes. The video was well edited :P
there's SUBTITLES??
and he isn't even a sonic fan
@@AmyGoo22 WHAT! INSANE!
@@AmyGoo22 wow, that must have been painful then
I respect this man so much. He’s spent literal years studying a game series he doesn’t even like that much to make a feature length video that is firm, fair, and respectful towards people who might like the games he’s criticizing.
I agree, as a sonic fan I was kind of surprised that he doesn't like franchise because of how positive he is in the video! Major props
@@vizualeater I like to think he can’t get behind the flaws in animation
@@vizualeater Dan's basically always positive. It's just who he is.
@@vizualeater he's just giving credit where credit is due
Months*
42:52 Likely someone has already commented this information, but i think a BIG reason they used so much mocap for their cutscene animetions is as you said, efficiency and to save development time, as SA2 had a total development team of a staggeringly low just 11 people, and only a year and a half of development time from start to finish, frankly its a marvel they did so much with the little resources they had to do it with
Makes sense that Sonic Boom has amazing animation, the designs were made with the cartoon in mind
Sonic Boom's cartoon is deadass underrated.
Big Red Button had already designed everyone before Sega went and stealth commissioned the cartoon.
@@caramelldansen2204 Thank you, i think it could have been good but it was the glitches. At least i still enjoyed the game and the new designs
Also, Sonic Lost world is underrated. It’s the reason I love Sonic so much
Lost World???
Man, the bits about mocap reminds me of a teaching from one of my teachers; “If real life looks wrong, you make it look right.”
Very late reply, but I feel like that sentiment rings true for just about any form of art, it's a piece of advice I've given to a lot of my friends and tried to apply to my own works (albeit phrased differently, since I'm pretty sure I don't know your teacher lol)
This has to be my favorite video on the Internet right now. As an animator (though not professionally) and as a Sonic fan (er, somewhat professionally), I found myself not just agreeing with every point made in this wonderful, masterfully-crafted analysis/essay, but even predicting some of the points I thought you, as a professional would bring up, which is a huge ego-boost for an amateur like me. It was fascinating seeing the series evolve in certain places, and devolve in others. I even learned a few things that I had seriously overlooked in certain games due to how rarely one would ever get to see those animations to begin with.
That being said, Daniel, playing every main series Sonic game immediately makes you a part of the community, whether you like it or not. We get together and have eggs every Tuesday, so see you then!
He's one of us now! Welcome to hell
(Also love your videos btw)
I'll bring the chilidogs.
Video does not contain suprise furry lapdance.
Charriiiiiiiii
@@sawkchalk6966 took the words out of my mouth.
1:24:30
Is no one talking about how what he's saying syncs up so well with Sonic's movements? Especially at 1:24:35
lmao
Wow XD
Holy shit, I never noticed that
This video is incredible, explaining a lot of the animation in Sonic games in words I never knew how to put together until watching this. Looking forward to watching a lot more of your stuff!
Ay
Hi NB BN
Its only a shame we didn't see his documentary on Sonic advance
Sup
you too?
"Oh, hey, he did a Sonic video!"
*notices something at the end of the intro*
"He did... _All_ of the Sonic videos."
I thought you weren't supposed to upload much!
It's the video version of the "The doctor said only one glass of wine per day" comic with the the man with his bowl or cask sized glass joke.
Funny enough the video was this long and he didn't even cover the GBA and 3DS games which all have incredible animation.
"No, buddy, that's not how those types of guns work." - Dan, as Shadow pumps an SMG like a shotgun.
I mean, could you imagine them trying to make Shadow pulling back a charging handle look okay? XD
Pump action could be applied to any gun. You can easily have a pump action rifle. It's just that most rifles favor bolt action since it takes up less space and also less movement. Shotguns usually are pump action because shotgun shells are pretty heavy and moving them with a bolt requires quite a bit of strength which makes moving it quickly somewhat awkward.
It _could_ be applied to almost any gun... but that's not a fictional gun Shadow is holding. It is, almost exactly and with striking visual realism, a Heckler & Koch MP5A3.
Even if it wasn't a specific real gun, just having it look like a realistic submachinegun makes chambering a round in that way very weird. Either make the gun look unrealistic, or make it a realistic gun that actually works that way, like a shotgun.
Come to think of it, why are there no shotguns in that game? Seems like a natural fit if you're making... that game.
@@LazyMaybe Do you know what rifles *do* often chamber rounds like that? Nerf guns. That's what that animation reminds me of.
By this point he's clearly losing his mind, and shy of clawing his own eyes out.
As a Sonic fan, this was an absolutely fascinating video. Very well articulated, refreshingly neutral, and incredibly informative. I feel like I learned so much about what makes animation work well or poorly. I would love to hear your take on the Sonic Advance trilogy, since the animation there, at least to my eyes, is fantastic.
"refreshingly neutral"
I was thinking of that while watching. I know there's a lot of really passionate people in the fandom, and so I can imagine that having discussions and conversations tackling subjects like this, and finding anything even remotely resembling objectivity within the fandom must be pretty difficult and rare.
Sometimes, the perspective of an outsider without personal emotional investment can clear the air a lot.
there are other games on the gamegear and the dreamcast he missed too, like sonic labyrinth and sonic shuffle. the sonic riders spin offs would be nice to see too
@@ildhjerte7920
Can you please point me to the neutrality in this video?
@@the1whoplayz what do you mean? He talked about good things and bad things, sometimes within the same game; he never insulted SEGA or anyone else - like, is that not neutral? What's your point here, genuinely asking
I think the first 3D sonic should have been something like Sonic Secret Rings just with a bigger budget and more polish. But with the same basic gameplay and limited options. I think the main reason Mario 64 has aged as well as it has is because it is a very basic game and so Nintendo could focus on making that basic gameplay work as well as possible.
Dan is like a teacher who has seen a student with a lot of potential fail so consistently that any passing grade feels like a huge victory
How is that so accurate
“Expect to see a new Sonic game announcement”
Yeah sure...any day now....*cries in a corner silently*
never expected you here
Love your JoJo vids.
Sonic Forces 2 was announced this morning!
@@KaitouKaiju bro what
@@KaitouKaiju bro what
Gotta respect my man using the Dreamcast version of Sonic Adventure
yessirrr
As someone who does go to Disney yearly yes the animation in 06 is mascot central.
Ah yes,another one like me
I love how much this guy cares for Tails lmao.
"Give this kid a break, it's his first day and he's very smol"
"Because he's little and he's sweepy"
Adorable.
to be honest, I love tails more than sonic.
@@bencurry3044 tails was adorable in the 2D games
My siblings’ reaction when looking at tails was:
My brother: who’s that girl?
My sister: why is that dude following me!?
My other brother: hmph hehe
Me: 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
Tails is my favorite character in the franchise, and that's sad considering that his character has gone downhill lately. In Sonic Lost World, the writers were able to make Tails unlikeable. HOW, AND WHY?! He's the most likeble character, so why? It's sad, honestly. 😞
10:35
i only realized halfway through that this is as long as a movie
Definitely well spent though
@@BuizelCream yes
Same
Its longer than the sonic movie
Me too
The editing in this video is absolutely astonishing.
I love it! Especially for how much it has in the time he had!
Edit: Yes i had to edit this cause i thought it was him talking about his own vid. Love both ya guys vids!
@@ScoutOW2 It's so easy to mistake one Dan talking about video game animation for another. Why are there so many Dans on this website, anyways?
@@timothymclean Theres probs a Society of Dans trying to overthrow a monopoly over the internet.
I can just imagine a weekly Discord call about how many new subs they got. XD
@@timothymclean I was actually wondering where his accent went when I started the video
seriously though. it positively stuns me to see editing this consistently high quality for a friggin 1 hour 40 youtube video. like jesus
19:57
This is somewhat what the team was going for when they were designing Mighty. Originally, Sonic was gonna be playable, but this was changed mid-development (for what reason, I don't know). So, they basically redrew all the sprites to be Mighty instead of Sonic.
Unleashed really does feel like the point where they remembered Sonic is a *cartoon,* and not just in the animation; it feels like the first Sonic game in forever to have a genuinely funny and goofy sense of humor throughout. Words could not express my delight upon getting my first E rank, and being "rewarded" with the game's main theme as performed by a horrifically out-of-tune high school marching band. Just, so silly, and so fun.
Maaan hearing that horrible fucking tune always made me laugh at myself
@@flobarrerav7374 "Man I suck, but at least I'm not PAID to be that bad at an instrument! ... Wait."
Unleashed is amazing, if only those werehog levels weren't so annoying...
@@mithril5155 I personally think the werehog levels were awesome! Imo
Personally, I loved Unleashed the most out of all the games. Just a slight touch up on the cutscenes between zones, and it would’ve probably been the best animated Sonic game released to date
this so called "mascot suit problem" is basically the entire reason why everything about Jump Force characters look awful,
they really do look like people wearing a costume pretending to be those jump characters
It also has a massive issue with its realistic art style. Why give the game a realistic art style when literally nobody, including the OCs that supposedly live in this world, have a remotely realistic art style? It just felt like a terrible design choice. The game already has a case of art style clash thanks to the origins of the characters, why make it worse by attempting to unify them all under a realistic style that not only makes everything look even worse, but also served to do nothing but lower the game's framerate.
Yeah, it would have benefited from simpler, cartoony graphics, this would do justice to the characters' animated roots. But instead they gone for a realistic approach that doesn't make any sense since none of those characters came from a photorrealistic artstyle.
Correct 😭
Honestly if the game went for a more Naruto Storm-like style it would've been so much better lowkey
Why the f you just dont do db multiverse animation or a video?
THANK YOU for bringing up the "they look like humans trying to move in mascot suits" issue. That's bothered me for so long, and I haven't had a good method to express it until now.
@Xavior no, they still do. But they made enough progress with it in animation for a long time, they've found a way to use that a lot to make it seem un-detected with it.
@@Vadim-Zヴァディム No they've stopped since sonic colors
@@sanicmovie4894 Sure about that? Pretty sure they used it in forces to, but ok
@@Vadim-Zヴァディム Are you able to link me a scene of where they used mocap
@@sanicmovie4894 well it's not in the video, but why do you think forces wasn't really a good game? it contemplates bad facial expressions and bad cartoony animation
I feel like it’s important that you mention, SA1 HAD SMEAR FRAMES! And sa2 didn’t? Why?! They looked so good!
SA2 does have smear frames in the Dreamcast version. but they are glitched in the ports. lots of visuals are actually broken in SA2 post Dreamcast. there's a whole video by cybershell comparing the ports issues visually.
so many of the problems of the current games' animation could just be solved if they MOVED THOSE DAMN EYEBROWS. the lack of eyebrow movement removes so much potential expressiveness from the designs. the CG cutscenes in the modern games show how well it works when implemented. as a fan, it's literally all i can see when i watch the recent games' in-game cutscenes now.
The Archie Sonic comics, and probably the recent series as well, got an incredible amount of mileage out of the modern designs and I'm sad the games never met the standard they set.
@@sawkchalk6966 big agree, makes me really bummed to see :(
@@NaXEthan big agree is such a great term, I'm gonna use it now.
@@memzdotexe4127 vinesause joel
@@moosesues8887 vinesauce joel
The Sonic Boom designs had the most expressive facial animations I’ve seen from the 3D mainline games of the franchise.
@Marav Reviews I agree, I love them especially for that.
I think they overdid Knuckles just a little, besides that, they looked great.
Also the most trash models
@@Abshortz77 Can you explain why? I know the game is trash bec. its laggy and boring, but the models are ok.
@@reedtheracco0n Well they overuse bandages and of course they changed some things that didn’t need to be changed (mainly talking about knuckles here). While I agree the models aren’t horrible, they’re definitely not close to the best
Mascot syndrome aside, who ever was playing in that Minnie mouse suit was doing an outstanding job comparatively.
I completely agree, and it looks like, at least from that footage, that the training the top tier actors go through is intense. You basically have to learn to exaggerate every movement. It's like from the LOTR documentary about how they detail how the actors had to force emotion through the heavy prosthetic makeup in order for anything to show.
I was about to say the same thing! Power to that Minnie Mouse damn
@@TheFrantic5 To be clear about this, Disney characters learn classical miming as part of their training, and go through rigorous hours of physical character study. It's a surprisingly deep and unappreciated art.
It actually stood out to me from that clip; the real-life Minnie looked more convincing as a cartoon character than the ACTUAL CARTOON CHARACTERS in Sonic 06. Very ironic.
It's kinda offensive when you stop and think about how even a mascot suit is more expressive than a 3D character (albeit a poorly animated one)
1:39:54
"The fact that this series probably won't revisit this sort of stylish animation for a long time, if ever, makes me sad."
**Insert image of Mercy giving out her hand except it's Sonic Prime**
Honestly just happy to hear someone praise the boom designs animations. It doesnt get enough attention
I agree!
I personally love the designs. They're easier to draw in my style!
If only the game was as good as the animations.
Also, no, I’m not blaming the devs, because it’s not their fault SEGA ruined everything.
It’s good but knuckles gained some weight
@@krugerofcause9048 part of it is also because of Ken Penders. For whatever reason, when all his shenanigans ended, SEGA dictated that Sonic couldn't be so emotional (aka expressive) anymore, and... I don't get it, why was that a thing?
"Shadow's gameplay animation has seen some small but incredibly important improvements"
Shows Shadow shooting Sonic
Improvement number one: sonic is dead
@@liaminator4950 well it would certainly solve the issue of Sonic's animation in new games
@@jeremyabbott4537 animating a corpse is way easier bc they dont need to move 😌
@@liaminator4950 just apply some havok physics engine and you're good to go.
...
now I want to see Sonic's corpse freak out like Dark Souls' corpses do
@@jeremyabbott4537 or he dies and just breath of the wild ragdolls
this video is so good!!!! never thought i'd watch a feature-film-length youtube video about sonic animation but i have zero regrets
The thing is, I'm a writer, not an artist! I can barely draw a stick figure that looks good I let my brother take that role! Its still fascinating to get bits of insight into creation though.
True.😂I was like let's watch it but damn it is so long but once I passed five minutes I stayed.
++
SIMP
@@Smash_cash11 How?
Do I keep coming back to watch this feature length movie. Yes, yes I do. And that says volumes about how friggin awesome Dan (and Carrie) are at making informative but entertaining videos
Me: I don't have time to watch this movie my friends have been telling me to for years
Also me: Oh cool a New Frame Plus video! I have plenty of time for that!
Why are we like this? XD
L O R D if this isn't me
but movies are different! You don't always have the time to become emotionally invested...
Dan's been preparing this for years. At last, he finished playing enough of every Sonic game to analyze it!
@@AoiLucine Don't know about you but i really got really invested in Dan getting his sanity back.
@@z0bi_ Okay just finished the video and same. Poor guy... poor sonic. The 3D era was unkind to them...
"He does a little yawn, because he's little, and he's sweepy!" Dawww
Ikr
aaawwwwee ☺️☺️
"just because the game is old doesn't mean the animation is bad"
A quote almost all gba games live by
Gba isnt that old though
Indeed, since they're handheld games I know they weren't within the scope of this video, but I really would like to hear what Dan thinks of the animation in the Sonic Advance trilogy
@@Boooo i hate to tell you but the gba is nearly 21 years old
@@ectofrost yeah, so not that old
Not even middle aged
@ but in regards to technology that's considered old.
23:55 I'd be surprised if nobody has mentioned this already, but Hades (and other games by Supergiant) actually uses pre-rendered sprites like DKC and 3D Blast. The sprites just have enough resolution/frames/angles that you can't really tell in practice. Zagreus has something like thirty different directional variants for each animation.
you just gotta love how eggman the human character moves more cartoonishly than the actual cartoon characters who are stuck in mocap hell lol.
No i hate everything about 2010s i want everything from 2000s back even stories that made me relatable delete all 2010s it is good that sonic fans says that a lot that 2000s are good or in polls they always pick 2000s instead of 2010s and fans say 06 is better than forces cuz now forces is the worst mainline sonic game and that is good thing everyone telling sega to do that the youtube videos about why 2000s games are good are coming now is great even a GOOD 06 review that talk about why 06 and 2000s good sonic is not cartoony as you think he is shonen hero for all ages even adult i am so glad characters like rouge 18 and vector 20 and big 18 exist cuz it is not only cartoony and childish
@@fazelfarrokhi1998 he didn’t even mention t he 2010’s.....
@@traktor420 well, you see, that's bc he's been spamming this comment everywhere bc he doesn't have any braincells
Ah yes, "They've been torturing him for months!" Course when you actually see him in his cell it seems like that "torture" has consisted of depriving him of chilidogs for a couple months.
They took his shoes off
He literally looks like an animal crossing character sitting down when you see him in the cutscene in the jail cell
@@karnewarrior uh oh
Eggman should've put a chillidog just out of his reach.
Granted solitary confinement for an extended period of time in itself can be considered torture
Sonic Unleashed was such a massive improvement in every single way, even with the Werehog levels. The animation and gameplay were honestly hundreds of times better than they were in Secret Rings, and it's still a really fun game to replay. Sonic Team tends to get rushed a lot, but Sega usually gives them more time after they make bad games. It wouldn't be very smart to just let your series die due to poor quality, so they make a good game in between to prevent that. They still *do* rush out games though.
By the way, I edited this. It was worded really poorly.
The best Sonic game in my opinion
@@mr.marshmaloman2867 I honestly think it would place at second for me since I feel generations beats it by a bit because of the entire game being great while the werehog parts did bring down the game by a very small amount, but they were still really fun, but the tornado sections are the reason that I feel that generations is a little bit better (i actually don't agree with this reply i made)
@@mr.marshmaloman2867 Not a chance lol.
@@zorn2017 ur opinion
@@mr.marshmaloman2867 the story, gameplay, challenge, length, uniqness, animation, beauty, and music were all so brilliant. It is also my favorite Sonic game, I loved Unleashed so much for all the said reasons. I could explain more if you want, but I have done so too many times on TH-cam.
I'd really love to see you analyze the animation in Sonic Frontiers, because there's some REALLY good stuff like the first encounter with Giganto, as well as some really bad stuff like the optional side story conversations that bring to mind SA1, with characters simply interpolating between a few set poses
There’s also the interactions between Sonic and Knuckles, and Sonic and tails, where Sonic’s expressions really shine thru in a way we haven’t really seen before. And Sage, ironically, is also quite expressive feeling
You ask and you receive. He posted the Frontiers videos.
@@brovideogaming9447 Byeah
Instantly added it to my watch later when I saw it in my subfeed
The latter is normal in larger games, you'll see that kind of standing around and just talking in like the Witcher.
Cus having personalised animations for every chat would make the game's cost balloon.
Both time and money-wise.
I really like how are very upbeat when discussing the shortcomings; like "the people who worked on this probably went on to do more amazing work, but in this particular instance it was lacking". It's encouraging in a "your earlier attempts don't define the rest of your life" while also examining the issues in each game.
It's kind of insane how a character has managed to be THIS successful and relevant for 30 years due almost exclusively to his fantastic character design. Obviously the first few games are great and the animation is killer, but even his bad games manage to be charming because the design philosophy for this series is so appealing, as well as the absurd amount of personality they're capable of injecting into each one.
now that i think about it, i feel like sonic 06 wouldnt be anywhere near as infamous and well remembered if it wasnt for the character designs lol
Sega keeps him relevant by constantly pumping out sideband shovelware for him. They've done this since day 1. Theoretically the main games are much better but they usually show signs of rush too.
@@tsm688 “signs of rush” while talking about a series with the literal game subtitle “rush” in at least one of its games
I just fucking love classic Sonic's excitement when you reach A grade, he's just so fuckin happy!
1:22:21
He's so adorable
smol baby
We all loved him-
I have watched this video so many times, this guy does such an amazing job explaining the animation process. Also it’s just genuinely so well edited.
Dude how are you describing me in every way?!?! ☺👍
Why is no one talking about the shadow scene? Like am I the only one for whom that hits my sense of humor just perfectly?
"this time we're giving the grouchy hedgehog a gun!"
It's perfect in so many ways.
... and guns don't work that way
@@tommurchuis5464 That one doesn't
That scene alone makes me want to experience that game lmao
Same and double same
@@samuelharvey4925 It a Good game your just going to have to play it a lot for the Final Ending.
I can't imagine how sick Dan was of saying the word "Sonic" after making this video.
The phrase “nowhere to go but up” has somehow never worked in the Sonic franchise. when the Sonic franchise goes 1 step forward, it’s impossible to tell how many steps forward or backward it can go. There is almost no way to guess what positive or negative thing will stick.
I TAKE 1 STEP FOWARD AND 2 STEPS BACK
Honestly, I think Sonic '06 was the only "nowhere to go but up" in the franchise, as the sheer awfulness of that dumpster fire has arguably never been topped.
@@kingofcrap4414 Yeah, but Boom tho
@@kingofcrap4414 I'd say that lost world is worse because it tries far less
@@WrathMilten at least lost world was, you know, a decent game
I absolutely love that the Fun Game/Good Animation graphs you showed actually lined up with what you said in the video. Most people would probably throw up some random squiggles.
So do I need to DM you for the cool guy lessons prices or do you have a public posting.
what an absolute treat of a video, to the point, insightful and entertaining. Definitely my favourite channel right now :D
69 likes, make a wish!
Wowie Mr Puberty voice man joined the chat.
lol its so unexpected to see brody watching a sonic video
Your welcome :)
Thought you were more of a mario fan my guy lol. But it's nice to see you here.
The "Mascot Suit Problem" seems to be the main cause of the janky animation in Balan Wonderworld. The pre-rendered cutscenes by Visual Works (Square Enix's CGI department) seem to be hand-animated and look great, but all the in-engine dance sequences by Arzest look like unedited motion capture data and they don't mesh with Naoto Ohshima's character designs at all...
not just the dance sequences, most in-game animations are just a little bit too narrow and realistic for the absurdity of the world
@@TreeBranchStudios Balan Wonderworld was made by Square Enix, not SEGA and not Sonic Team. Yuji Naka hasn't been at SEGA since the development of Sonic 06.
@@satelliteprime sonic 06...
So, is that coincidence? Or did this person bring that habit over?
@@chillinchum probably a bit of both. I don't think Yuji specifically would have specified that mocap be used in either scenario, hell he probably didn't direct the animation for 06 or even Balan, but he is profoundly overambitious and it's notoriously hard to reign him in according to those he's worked with, so as was the case with 06, it was almost definitely necessary to save time on completing his over ambitious hot mess of a project.
.......Again.
What I think is super interesting is that he carried even more problems from Sonic over with him than the motion capture and the odd character designs (I don't know who the character designs were done by but if you squint the boy protagonist looks like Sonic, with the hair and the body proportions). I swear they even have the same run problems Dan mentioned in SA2, where the torso kind of floats around and the limbs flail about underneath them as they run! It's so weird how much of early 3D Sonic's baggage Balan carries, I'd love to see Dan play it now that he's done so much work analyzing Sonic animation!
Looks like Frontiers, despite realistic map, is leaning towards a more cartoon approach to Sonic too. Can't wait to see how they do his movements in the complete game, because this could revolutionize Sonic's Animation and Artstyle forever.
How is it?
@@NO0BY. I got the game a day ago. I looked at the animation closely, and I can definitely say it is fantastic.
There is a fair bit of squash and stretch, especially in combat moves where his legs and arms extend. Attacks like Phantom Rush use animation techniques and it really does feel just good to play.
He's *fast,* and it feels surprisingly natural. Snappy movements and actual cutscene animation that isn't just standing around.
Overall I'd say the animation in the game is a 9/10. Could utilize Cartoon Logic more, but for what we get it's great.
Sonic frontiers sonic is great,characterization and animations is some of the best we've had
Also ian Flynn he's our god at this point.also prime happened and it's perfect,I wonder who wrote it- "Ian Flynn"...I told you
@@KiiBon thank God they didn’t keep the TWO FRAME ANIMATIONS WITH NO EMOTION, the animation in the game is so good and expressive
The cutscene animation is also great, and if I had to sum it up in a word: eyes. The big issue with a lot of previous Sonic games is that they really didn’t do much with the eyes to sell those expressions, essentially devoting a massive amount of character space to a blank expression. But Frontiers works really, REALLY hard to use those Big Ol Eyes effectively, and actually knowing when to open them, close them, squint them. You can turn off the subtitles and voices completely in many of the scenes with Knuckles, Tails, and Sage, and you still get a pretty good picture of what’s going thru everyone’s head
And even tho Eggman is always good, extra kudos to that animation toward the end
i'm really glad someone is singing the praises of rise of lyric's animation. i think that good aspect of it gets heavily overshadowed far too frequently, because it is genuinely the one thing that the game did way better than its sonic team counterparts at the time.
I think it's because they used the show's animation to base it off of, and the show itself has decent expressive animation so it carried over to the game. That and the redesigns really do look easier to work with.
15:39 I believe it's a snap to get your attention, then points towards the forward direction with his index finger and points to himself with his thumb, indicating "Hey, let's get a move on, already!"
Previous iterations would show Sonic being impatient, but by 3 he is pretty much like "C'mon, you know the drill! Let's go!"
yea think that true but I think he is trying to say (snaps) "HEY!" (points to the right) "We need go to stop the egghead!"
I thought he was probably pointing at the level timer to indicate 'Hey, time's running out, let's GO'. Considering if you wait too long you lose a life, it seemed like a fun detail.
i think it’s saying “good to go” 👍 ✌️👉
41:32 "Sonic characters have extremely stylised designs, & as a general rule, exaggerated cartoony characters require exaggerated cartoony movement, because if you take a cartoony character & animate them like a realistic human being, you get an effect called the Mascot Suit Problem. [...]"
Thanks for unintentionally summing up my feelings about VTubers
Honestly? Didn't realize it until now. That's why some 3D Vtubers looked so hysterical when moving.
I've noticed this effect since I was 7, watching cartoony 3D models move like normal people is very weird since you are used to it being and looking exaggerated.
Now that I'm thinking about, if I ever plant to become a V-Tuber in my free time, I'd probably want to design my avatar to avert these sort of Mascot Suit Problems. I think I should take inspiration from some robot characters, such as E-102 Gamma, E-123 Omega, or Metal Sonic. Why? Because those sorts of designs don't have a face that needs to be animated, and faces are often notoriously difficult to animate. That, or I could merely just use 2D sprites to depict my avatar like it's a visual novel.
I think that mocap could be used as a base in order to save the trouble of making the animation look smooth and real, but it should be exaggerated and cartoonised on top of the mocap, much like they did in some of the unleashed cutscenes, especially apparent in the second in game cutscene where he snaps his fingers, exaggerated but still believable
V-Tubers are basically mascots, just not in the real world.
As a longtime fan of Sonic, I honestly don't know why anyone who isn't actually a fan of the series would do this. I'm glad you did, but like wow. That's some crazy dedication to your craft.
Something I think Sega needs to understand about their animal characters is that the Eye lids should not produce the emotion, the brow should, because that's how any human-like character emits emotion effectively. The use of eyelids to create emotion creates a teeter on the uncanny valley.
I've noticed this is a very common tradition in "cartoony" Japanese animation. Stuff like Doraemon and Sgt. Frog all uses eyelids to portray emotions, and you see it all over Japanese media. I've never understood why myself.
@@adlaistevenson2623 it's very strange.
@@adlaistevenson2623 the short answer is "it's easier"
the long answer is that it's a lot of work to draw/animate different eye shapes, which is what you're going to need if you want to capture the full range of eye muscle movement. stylization like in those cartoons is an acceptable solution on simple characters if it's done appealingly
but appeal is pretty tough with 3d characters; you really have to put in the extra mile
having more eye controls and eye shapes would be in 3d sonic's best interest, tho
@@river_brook Well, the examples I gave was from 2D animated characters, where changing the eye shape is inconsequential. It's only within the limited confines of 3D that it becomes a hassle. My point was that on Japanese cartoon characters (not anime-styled characters, but antrhopomorphic ones like Sonic), eyelids are commonly used to emote, while in Western cartoons, a much fuller range of emotions are usually employed (eyebrows, changing the shape of the eyes etc.)
I never understood why they use the character’s eyelids for expression instead of their actual eyebrows like in the Sonic Movie
Morphing and stretching the face and forehead is more work than just covering the eyes a bit
The pre-rendered Shadow the Hedgehog cutscenes even made use of the iris and pupil.
Most likely due to time constraints. Like he said, the sonic team is notorious for being rushed
It seems like it takes more effort to animate the eyebrows because it varies from game to game and the games with less polished animation tend to use the eyelids instead. In Sonic 06 they even use both, eyebrows in the pre-rendered cutscenes and eyelids in the in-engine cutscenes.
@@corvo2696 Yeah it takes more work but it looks better. That's how putting more effort into something works. Crash 4 wasn't animated in an afternoon and I doubt it was easy, but it looks AMAZING.
38:44 this scene will forever be legendary, but not because of its _original_ dialouge.
@egoichi yes
I've come to make an announcement
"And he said his dick was "THIS BIG" and I said "That's Disgusting" "
DRRRRRRROPLLLLETS!
I’m taking over victoria street,I’m taking over best buy. I forgot the rest.
Too bad because of the restrictions, he didn't talk about the advance games. The animation in them are absolutely stellar, and there's a reason why they're seen everywhere in fan animations.
“I don’t even like Sonic” he says, an hour and a half into his analysis of the franchise, giving his experiences with binging all of the games
He said he's on the edge of this fanbase
We call that Egoraptor syndrome
a true sonic fan
here’s your third monthly reply
The dude likes Sonic. He's just ashamed to admit it since Sonic has a toxic fanbase/bad track record. No way I would make a 1hr+ video on a character I don't like.
As an animator, I cannot get enough. You put so much effort into these videos, I feel it appeals to fans of games, fans of animation, and also anybody with no knowledge on these subjects. Really impressed with your consistency!
This video was so good! Not only are you a great animator, you’re a great storyteller, teacher, and scriptwriter. The lovely bits of humor and unexpected jokes were a joy among the interesting story you wove through this lesson. I specifically loved all the analogies you squeezed in about what the things on screen looked like, they helped me understand better and were hilarious.
Thank you for such an amazing experience, have a great day!
i always loved the way sonics quills get pushed inward by the wind when u boost in gens and unleashed. really adds depth to the feeling of "ur now going at mach 12"
the upload of this video equals the cinematic significance of the One Ring being dropped into Mount Doom
This video did have a lot of rings in it after all...
I think part of the “mascot suit” problem is that the features on their oversized heads (like Sonic’s spines) don’t move at all. Almost as if they’re glued on rather than naturally occurring. If his spines are hair (even a weird, triangle formation of hair) they shouldn’t be completely static. They should have some sway and overlapping action affected by his movements. That’s more things to animate, but that’s partly why the Sonic Unleashed cinematic looks so good. They aren’t paper mache cones stuck to him, it’s treated as hair like it’s supposed to be.
That's kind of what he's talking about toward the end with the size of the eyes. They're so big by default that it's hard to move them. Imagine modern Sonic's eyes widening in surprise. Where do his eyebrows go? Off of his head? I mean, on some designs that could work, but his eyebrows are just a head ridge, so not here. Boom changed the shape of the eyes a bit and made them smaller, which made them easier to work with. Not saying Sonic Team couldn't be doing more with what they have, but it makes sense that they would struggle.
I doubt this is the case, but I also like to imagine them secretly still being scared to do facial animation after the disaster that was Sonic Adventure's faces.
@@SeantommyE Yeah he made a good point about that. I just think other features like the spine should be mentioned. But you're right, they don't even animate the non-existent "eyebrows" in the first place, so that criticism applies to the whole face/head region.
I read sonic's spine not moving and I instantly thought of his fricking lame model and idle animations in smash
@@SeantommyE StH's pre-rendered cutscenes already showed that the characters' brows can be extremely expressive, enough time ought to have passed for them to figure it out for real time cutscenes. Granted, it mostly works because of Shadow's perpetual angry brows but even that could benefit characters with similarly sharp eyes like Knuckles, Espio, and Vector. It might even benefit characters whose eyes are often half-lidded like Rouge or Blaze. But I agree, overall they will have to overhaul the eye shapes for most characters to allow for more expressiveness. Which is about as likely as Silver getting his own game or Blaze ever returning to a main series title considering how distinctive they are to the sonic style :(
@@ahmadkazan217 His spines actually do move in his Smash idles.
That Jocat sequence caught me off guard. What a delightful surprise in an already delightful video!
Well, it’s not gonna catch _me_ off-guard _now._ How is this always *the* kind of comment that appears at the top in the comments preview when I’m on mobile?
Idk what Jocat is, and if it’s something obvious, then I’m just uncultured. XD
Where was it?
Following because I don't know Jocat or Sonic well enough to know what I'm looking for tbh.
Does anyone have a timestamp, by chance? I genuinely think I missed it...
Another detail I noticed, is that on the boost on Sonic Generations, his legs bend less, and they use very small stretch, but it's still there. Also his spines stick more to each other as if the wind is pushing them together.
1:08:44
Welp, one of the artists majorly responsible for Crash 4 and Spyro's redesign has recently been confirmed to be working on the new Sonic Netflix s eries. You did it lad, you manifested into existence possible future character design and animation improvement.
"i think i may have bit off too much this time"
You didn't bite you ate the entire buffet
and the table
And the salad bar.
And the kitchen.
What ultimately bums me out about Sonic Boom is that it was directed by Bob Rafei who is an absolute LEGEND in terms of being a character animator and one of my favourite concept artists from Naughty Dog. I THINK the reason WHY the redesigns are more animator friendly is because that was the compromise his team and SEGA reached, because if you were wondering what the development was like, dig up some of the concept art for Sonic Boom: the Rise of Lyric. They were flat out going to COMPLETELY change the entire Sonic gangs look to be far less Sonic looking and far more.... I wanna say Pogo-esque Walt Kelly looking designs? Like, they were probably going to be closer to vaguely Jak & Daxter looking designs and I think the team understood the issues you raised regarding how Animation unfriendly the original designs actually are. Though the production paintings and the concept art are absolutely gorgeous to look at and it absolutely breaks my heart when you see that they clearly had ideas that looked REALLY cool.
Unfortunately, due to the fact that SEGA had an unforgiving deadline and a freaking toyline of Sonic Boom to push out the door for a Christmas release, I think the poor folks at Big Red Button Entertainment to be stuck between a rock and a hard place and SEGA, rather than giving the game the time it needed to be polished, shoved it out the door incomplete.
Phenomenal video for a series you REALLY didn't have to endure yourself to and man you've made me appreciate WHY a lot of Sonic animation just doesn't work. Thanks man!
I love the detail you put into this video.
This is the first New Frame Plus video I've ever seen, and I think you've been hitting the nail on the head with every observation you've made. I even learned a few things about animation I never knew before! Now that Sonic Frontiers is out, we can see how the Sonic Team has worked in (or not lol) everything they've learned up to this point '' '
I think the 3D version of sonic just needs that eye to move more. I mean, look at the pre rendered cinematic on Shadow the Hedgehog, those eyes are SO expressive, no mascot suit problem there. Sonic Boom kinda got that very right as well...
Damn you tho, if you didn't point it out I would've never seen it ahhaha
I don't think you understand just how hard it is to get movement like that. They have hundreds of tiny movements to make it that fluid and organic. Each moving piece needs a separate axis which greatly increases the power needed to render it.
Unleashed's opening cutscene is absolutely incredible for 2007/2008. I really wish they commissioned that studio to make at least a 90 minute Sonic movie
The closest to that was a short film made in the same storyline/universe of Unleashed. I forgot what it was called but Chip and Sonic visit a haunted house some ghosts reside in and it looks so good to this day!
@@sundalosketch4769 the film you talking about is night of the werehog
@@sundalosketch4769 it was called night of the werehog and it came out the day before the game came out.
He brought up Kingdom Hearts briefly and I really think Sonic Team needs to take some lessons from that franchise. It also has exaggerated hand and feet proportions, smaller cartoon characters like Donald Duck and Mickey, but they animate as well as the humans and don't look terribly out of place next to them either
Though they did look terribly out of place next to the Pirates of the Caribbean characters.
@@SobiTheRobot oh lord yes, and just how the humans are stylized versus the photoreal models based on actors makes even Sora look like a different species
@@bluecanine3374 It's the same problem Mario had in the New Donk City level of Odyssey, what with the realistic humans. Even Pauline looked a little out of place and she was their mayor.
Though it's not as extreme as the Sonic characters. At least their faces are relatively normal and their hands are more restrainted. With Sonic his hands are about the same size as his head minus the spikes.
Also Square Enix has the largest and most talented animation team in the bussiness.
@@SobiTheRobot bruh that’s the point lmao
THANK you for acknowledging the animation in Sonic Boom, it’s the one thing in that game that redeems it in any way. Terrible game, but it could have been so great!!
50:42 I don't know what hit me harder, Shadow pumping an AR-15, or Dan's immediate "Buddy, no"
Me: "Man NF+ hasn't uploaded in a long time..."
NF+: *uploads a nearly 2 hour video*
Me: "Thaaaat.....would explain it."
You know I came into this thinking it was gonna be just alot of ragging on the hilariously bad animations as we got into the newer games, but the technical outlook on the do's and don'ts and the Goods and bads listed here are so smooth and streamlined it's actually taught me a boat load As an up and budding animator, so for that, I say, thank you
15:38 I like to think that this gesture means “it’s time to go” because if Sonic’s facing right, he points to the time
He's actually pointing at himself saying "Hey, I need to get moving!" :3