Fineas - Test Flight 1
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ย. 2021
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Thanks to Ara for driving out to the desert and helping film! / arkorobotics
Thanks as well to FAR for maintaining a solid launch location in the middle of nowhere: friendsofamateurrocketry.org/
Sugar rocket explosion shown: • 8 inch KNSB sugar moto...
Space Enterprise at Berkeley are the folks who fired that liquid engine: www.berkeleyse.org/
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Intro music is God Rays by Simon Chylinski from the soundtrack of one of the greatest games ever.
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IM GONNA BE AN INTERN!!
So, this is like, an unpaid internship taken to its logical conclusion. I interned at BPS, and all I got was the chance to pay for this shirt :-D
Place the drive shaft on the upper end of the test fin so that the driving forces will be smaller to keep the fins aligned but greater to rotate...
I believe that this way the chances of erratically moving the fins would be smaller, even less with failure of the mechanisms
(PT-BR: Coloque o eixo de movimentação na ponta superior da aleta de comprove assim as forças motoras serão menor para se manter as aletas alinhadas porem maiores para rotacionar...
Acredito que assim as chances de movimentos das aletas de forma erráticas seriam menores menso com falhas dos mecanismos
hahaha now that I saw it... everyone had the same impression
What about hall effect sensors on the body of the rocket with a few small magnets embedded in the fins? This could give you fin position independent of the servo position in relation to the body.
that explosion was so cool, poor guys, it was like ava's first flight
What was that explosion
@@bracloop3178 Looks like the "Big sugar motor" blew up.
I presume that was the "big sugar engine" that threw out all the streamers (isn't that the Official Name for those things?). It sounds like a DIY engine - had they not tested the design, preferably several times? Do they have a channel or blog where I can follow what they're doing (not that I want to dedicate my life to watching amateur rocketry)?
@@TranscendentBen I think this engine is so big they wanted to test it in the desert and not at home. So nice they did it in a dessert and not at home.
You spoiled the result for me. I saw your comment in the little single comment preview thing before the launch.
Hi from Space Enterprise at Berkeley! I didn't get to go out there this time but I hope you were able to meet some of our team!
When you put "idk what to put here" I felt that sooo much too hahaha especially with what I'm working on, even numbers of things helps a lot
Congrats to you and the team on having two great hot fires that day!! The LEDs on the test stand are awesome :)
Space Enterprise, here's a video of your second test fire th-cam.com/video/LPHrka9lM4Q/w-d-xo.html
Great video! Your production value is awesome.
Thanks Bobby
🤩🤩🤩😀😀 BIG FAN SIR
Hey thats another thing you guys have in common, apart from being part-time comedians ;)
hi
@@BPSspaceim making a rocket because of u
There are a couple things that I see that could be changed resulting in a more successful flight test.
1. Bring the hinge for the fins further forward to take some of the “snap” away from the fins at aggressive AOA.
2. Update servo horn from plastic/nylon to a aluminum arm. maybe use 440 rod with ball links. Do not use piano wire and z bends and glue, the aerodynamic forces will be too great and the setup has a lot of slop if glue fails.
3. Limit the travel of the fin or use a expo curve to soften the movement as velocity increases. Slowly increase deflection each flight
(All knowledge is from time as a RC builder and pilot not to oversimplify but this is the same control method as RC aircraft)
I second everyone of the suggestions! Ball-links with rigid arms are definitely the way to go. At 100m/s+ there’s some serious aerodynamic loads there.
Add some led etc it shows to video synchronous driving fin motors and fins leading edge profile in my mind is too thick.
Looks only by video, that driver overdrive after it didn't get clear imagine from gyro from early start. Test that rocket in hand how it reacts,and I think you have been done that numerous times. Good video and nice to see hobby live so nicely by others too
Dito on the hinge placement...I came here to comment the same thing. Right now it's an unstable system. If you move the hinge up, the fin will tend to stay in-line withe the direction of travel.
Yup, you are totally on point. I’m also a long time RC builder and have done many full flying tails on high performance aircraft. You need the hinge point around 20-25% MAC (mean aerodynamic chord) to be in front of the center of pressure. Also make sure the servo linkages have zero slop to minimize flutter. Also make sure the control throw is such that the endpoint deflection is close to the max throw of the servo so you have the best resolution and high mechanical advantage (think highest torque and high resolution).
If you choose to remain with a single point mounting system put the pivot forward of the center of the fin so it zeros to straight ahead!
The subnautica soundtrack in the intro caught me off guard :)
Me too !!! XD
same
0:05 So never go above half full, got it! thanks!
No modern car or truck should ever be run under a quarter tank if you want your vehicle to last as that fuel lubricates and cools the in-tank fuel pump!
I’d rather take a lot of water into the desert than fuel.
@@Mike-oz4cv you can get out of desert with fuel but you can't do that with water.
@@user-yz8do8vu1s But if your car breaks down all the fuel isn’t going to help you. Water is handy in plenty of situations (and if it’s just being stuck in a traffic jam for a few hours).
Ha, well spotted, I missed that first time round.
I almost clicked away when you said sponsor. That company seems pretty nice.
Also, I thought the flight went pretty well. Flew up, wiggled its fins and had parachute deployment.
Yeah, and I was wondering where's the Official Notice that this is a Sponsored Video ... the FTC or whoever it is "requires" those things nowadays ...
Torquing on the fin pivot point tends to create an ossolation that is difficult to dampen. Put a control pin near the front of the fin and cut a slot in the servo wheel to drive it.
Love the video! In the spirit of youtube, I know nothing about this topic, but here's my opinion/suggestion: I agree with this. Separating the rotation point from the actuation mechanism may let you get better mechanical advantage for fin movement while the extra rotational constraint from having two links to the fin would spare your rotation point from hugemongous forces. Challenges, of course, would include servo positioning, but that's a minor detail. ;)
My dad worked on rocket guidance systems for General Dynamics starting in the late 1950’s to the mid 1980’s. One system he talked about, he called “dithering” where the fins shook at a small angle with a certain rate, when they wanted to change direction they would just pause at one or the other angles +/- then back to shaking/dithering. You could possibly use electromagnet switching to get rid of the mechanical linkage?
Hey dude where can I get practical knowledge about how combustion chamber is made?
Here’s a good start. Rocket engines are usually a pretty close guarded secret for the manufacturers. Tim Dodd has this latest video:
th-cam.com/video/Y-xyXDiC92s/w-d-xo.html
@@PiyushSingh-em5vz Look for a book called Rocket propulsion elements by George Sutton.
@@AIM54A what type of knowledge can I get from that book?
@@PiyushSingh-em5vz Elon Musk did ok.
THAT WAS AWESOME! I hope the next flight goes all right!
Well, unless you can control the pitch, then you go all left too if you want, idk
Olha ai o pesterenan aqui
I love how this started off like a documentary and ended like a good old BPS Space video with Joe doing something goofy, Can we have more of this is awesome :-)
I really appreciate the use of Subnautica music with your video. Love it! Would the rocket perform better if you have moving flaps on the back of the fins vs having the whole fin actuating?
the shots at 6:33 and 7:01 of it trying to correct itself and falling sideways are amazing, reminds me of shots of sn10 falling
You have a very interesting problem here with the PIDS. You will either need to write an algorithm to adjust the PIDS over the flight during powered lift or when you are flying at low speed you will have no issue as illustrated then when the speed picks up and the controls become super effective your algorithm will overcorrect and it will freak it out. I would say redesigning the fins to move the actuation point all the way to the back and the pivot to the very nose of the fin. Gets the best Mechanical Advantage at high speed and provides better servo precision. Then either go for full-on speed for the tune only or sacrifice high-speed control unless you can switch the rates between the two. Then the rocket looks like it should be great!
Ok I usually never comment but the TH-cam algorithm NEEDS to know this is the stuff I'm looking for. I've been following you for more than a year! 10/10 👍
Amazing video Joe!! Cant wait to see the next flight of Fineas!! Loved the new concept of aerodynamic guidance and also loved the new way of vlog type coverage!
These new videos are something else man. You are incredible! One of my favorite creators out there man
I think having the fins mounted to the servo is a weakness. Have a passive pivot point at the leading edge, but drive them laterally from as close to the trailing edge as possible for better leverage and stability. Yes, I mean having the linkage exposed.
Great video, thanks.
I love your content and always hope the best for you guys!
This is a next-level project. Well done!
Great work Joe, looking forward to the next launch 🚀
Amazing video! A few months ago, I thought about creating a fin controlled model rocket, but didn't see too much content on such a goal being achieved. I gave up on that project before I even started it. Now, with this video recently being released, I plan on pursuing this project again and learning as you go along! Can't wait to see the progress that is made along the way!
I don’t know how you do it but that stabilized tracking footage is CLEAN. Sooooo satisfying to watch
Your grit, curiosity and ingenuity continue to amaze me Joe.
First idea out of my head remembering V-2's... don't move the whole fin. Try hard mount main fin with servo driven tail flaps. Also check directionality of motion with the directionality of the servo rod movement. Pull, not push. Pushing the rod will bend fighting aerodynamic forces. If it needs to operate in both planes of motion use dual rods. Use metal geared servos against such high aerodynamic forces. Also suggest hinge be multi-sectioned (Like piano hinge) with 50 percent of total hinge width pins. (Note: during fin construction, bend pin ends over on both ends into slots top and bottom of flap, glue in place.) Leave space for vibration of flap. Even though you think the fin will be solid to the fuselage, vibration will close the flap gap and the flap will rub on the tube. I missed the build video for the rocket. Building a chassis for the servos to sit in that is much more stable than just mounting to a bulkhead. Next I'd limit the movement to 11.75 degrees in each direction. At the Max-Q speeds your rocket is flying, you don't need much deflection for roll control.
Amazing Work cant wait to see the future of this project!
"Launching rockets in the Mojave makes you wish for a nuclear winter."
Man, it's beautiful out there. And so many folks working on their passions that there is a dedicated site to do so. I didn't know such a place existed. Very cool! I really enjoyed the video, Joe. Thanks!
This channel sparks joy, thanks Joe
Incredible! GL on flight 2!
I'm getting strong subnautica vibes from the intro music. This slaps, amazing job, fits perfectly.
The work you do is so inspiring!
keep it up
I'm out in Ridgecrest CA and it's just amazing that all this cool stuff is happening right next door to me!
This waa genuinely awesome, congrats on a successful flight and recovery.
Holly Flight Recorder! 9:30 this is the bestestest tie a beardless guy can wear! Congrats on the flight+analysis, can't wait for the next espisode.
When the remove before flight tie came out I lost it. Great video and good luck on the next fin control flight.
That sugar motor that blew up was a P-5,000 KNSB motor . 8" Dia.
nice uncontrolled disassembly Joe. Well done on the first flight. Hoping you got all the info.
The subtle whine like a large tanker falling over in silence as it fell was so weird but amazing. 6:48
Dude, I love in Mojave I saw the video of you driving in on the south side, love it. Haven't watched video yet, live your channel.
That point about heat making the joints fail reminded me of Challenger's failed O-rings in the cold. Great video bro!
im kinda new to this sort of thing, but i would recommend 3d printing a tray for the servos that you could epoxy into the fuselage of the rocket, but overall awesome concept and I hope to see more.
Great video, that tie is a must buy
This has got to be the coolest channel I subscribe to. Any channel that can genuinely make me excited by saying "and now it's time to review the data" is definitely doing something right. I'm so excited to watch you find and overcome all the challenges in fin control. So cool.
One question: Even though the fins failed, can you tell if the control system was working by comparing the roll-rate measurements with the control system outputs? I.e. would it have worked if the fin joints has not failed?
Enjoyed it tremendously, thanks
I was see on the Advanced Model Rocket site that sugar motor explosion , and was not expecting you was next to it , amazing , jut be safe. Wery cool that your rocket survived that blast.
Great first flight!! Double post the fin connection to the servo shaft and it won’t slip on you. Can’t wait for next flight!! Cheers!
The decent was surreal. It was like a movie. Great job man.
Awesome job !! And great edit !!!! Fix the issues and back to the air !!!
Oh, buddy. That was a well made video and I hope you're not discouraged by the mechanical failure of the fins. Great progress was made here.
really freaking cool hobby you have here man, would be awesome to see you launch one of these and talk to you after about it. Rarely do you get to see someone with this much drive, talent and intellect create amazing things step by step but let alone in person. Looking forward to purchasing your flight computer and taking my small rocket hobby to the next level!
FAR is such a great place for experimental rocketry. Those guys out there are always great.
If you're ever doing anything with canards, the solid rocket team at San Diego State University has flown and the liquid team is planning to fly a rocket with forward control surfaces.
The real question after the failure is actually what parts resolidified after cooling. The launch video does show the failure almost at maximum altitude, the fins ( what little action/reaction there was ) looked good until melt slipage.
Option 7) Replace all linkage/parts with milled metals/carbonfiber and overkill the design, then fly again with the same flight program.
As always awesome well explained, well shot, well edited content. Though, as someone that has just started watching your channel over the last two months I feel like I want more context for the overall project goal. I know you are eventually trying to build a small space worthy full featured rocket, but I really am curious just how all of these individual test project amount to this goal.
It seems that the big sugar motor threw us a very nice party ...!!! Nice work.
JoeyB -legend! Love the sponsor segment at the end also!
Thank you for uploading
Glad to see another pilgrimage to FAR!
Great... Love your work
"When it fails, it fails straight"
Same.
I was waiting for this one!!!
"I don't think it worked, but that was great!" I agree completely;-) Very cool!
You are really good at editing videos.
Happy thanksgiving Joe!
VERY EPIC, CONGRATS JOEY B
Hey, Joe. First off, thank you for having the stones to post not just your many successes, but your failures as well. Not everyone has the ability to do that and you deserve thanks for doing so. Ok, secondly…. On mounting your fins. How about mounting the fin to a very small flat piece of aluminum that exactly matches the portion of the fin closest to the body of the rocket? Then you could weld a little shaft onto the plate and pass it thru a bearing or some type of seal/bushing that could keep it in the correct orientation and not allow it to wobble around once the air pressure against it increases during the launch event. I would also consider mounting the fins to the plates by screwing them from the shaft side and use some kickass epoxy or other adhesive of your choice. Having the metal control shafts would let you connect them to your servo horns (which it sounds like you are going to be replacing with aluminum for the next flight!) and eliminate any plastic or other parts that could potentially pose a risk of failure in high temp situations. Just think if you were to try and fly that thing in July or August down there in So Cal… it may have just melted right there on the rail! This is almost December so there are not many better weather patterns being offered by Mother Nature than what you were given. I learned my lesson with non metal servo horns when I was racing my 3D printed catamaran. My steering servo horn stripped the little teeth around the output shaft of the servo (who puts a metal geared high torque servo together using a plastic servo horn? Um, ahem, err, ok besides me I mean?) during a high speed run which did not end well when it failed suddenly and very completely…. 70mph into a stone wall at the edge of the lake. Wall vs 3D Boat. Wall 1, Boat nil.
i find it funny that my immediate mental solution to the plastic bits softening was to have a reflective foil blanket over that part of the rocket that would fall away at launch. your solution is much, much more practical and actually would work.
Lets goo. SO EPIC. Fineas be flying real high. Imma watch this video 3 times, cya.
Holy crap! I've been out in the Mojave doing geophysical survey work for the past month, and am about to head out tomorrow for another three weeks in the desert. Are you guys planning on more tests in that time frame because I'd love to be able to spectate live if you are.
Also, my team were all wondering what those explosions were, now I can't wait to tell them what was going on. :)
I love your tie!
Heat seeking missiles. As i was thinking of that extra fins near the top would help too.
I wonder if that’s the same team that just broke the record a few days ago!!
Great video.
I mean, all things considered, this is one of the best flights you've had.
Great type of video
Good rocket, good flight, good video! One idea is that if you're doing more flights out in the hot desert, do a radiant heat test to ensure that this doesn't happen again and that everything else can withstand the desert sun
Which is to say, stand the rocket up, stick a temperature sensor in it, get some cheap heat lamps, point them at the rocket, get it nice and hot, and see if anything fails or melts or gets soft that shouldn't
Knew I recognized subnautica music! Love when I find people that enjoy that game as much as I do!
This is why you should support BPS on patreon
Also great video as always love ya keep it up ❤️
That was great!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!
Hello !
Great video ! loved it ! For the chute have you checked into skydiving pilot chute or drogue chute. The drogue chute are bigger than the pilot chute but might work better as they are used to slow down tandem but they have a bigger packing volume. The material use is super light and if you get a pilot chute it can have a very low packing volume. You can look up as well to pilot chutes made for base jumping. ( For example the Snatch made by Squirrel ).
Thank you for reading and I hope it can help you !
( I'm a skydiver for information )
That Subnautica music at the beginning of the vid hits hard! 👌😩 Great Job!
Love the tie!
Brilliant work. A few questions:
1. What plastic would you consider as 'high temp' for this application?
2. How have you constructed the rocket payload so that you can remove it after a flight to work on it?
3. Have you considered going to hyrbrid rocket motor for the greater control?
Interesting idea!
The fin deflection should in my opinion be limited to something like maybe 5° and the pivot could maybe be altered to 2 points one being the aft hinge point and a ring conector which is connected to all the fins near the leading edge one servo or gear would turn the ring connector. The ring would be centered by 3 or more small cartrage berrings to keep friction minimized.
These are my 2 cents, keep them or toss them that is your choice.
CAR cert 3, NAR cert 2
DE VE9GIS
This was awesome. A solution to your joint problem would be to use set-screws or asymmetrical axles (D, hex, or +) to eliminate the need for epoxy. Also, do you think the motor burning had any effect on the temperature?
Awesome video!
This is my new favorite video! It's even better than Thoomp Flight 1 (which now is my second favorite video)
For your fin stabilization, would you consider a fin layout similar to an AIM-54 or AGM-65 where the large fixed forward fins do the majority of the neutral stability and the guidance fins are there for fine control?
Another option would be to model the "Rollerons" that are found of the AIM-9 family of missiles. This is a passive control system that uses air speed to turn gyroscopes that are built in to control surfaces.
My suggestions would be to have four fins working the pitch and yaw, as those two axis will require a considerable amount more control input than the roll axis.
For the roll axis, I would limit the controls to be less than one third of the deflection the pitch and yaw receive, as well as maybe limiting the controls to two fins.
Great stuff, very cool.
It seems to me a control surface on the back of a fixed fin would be a bit more robust solution and have a much less wild failure mode. But I've only flown subsonic.
Nice try out there! Something that I've seen people struggle with besides for mechanical failure is the accelerometer tracking spin rate will peg and then the fins will do something undesirable and then... you know. Might be best to go for very low gain on the roll control and make sure your build precision and fin alignment is as good as you can possibly make it.
That sus sound effect tho, caught me off guard, blasting in laughter.
I love the tie!
Awsome content, best of luck
launch
flight
descent
landing
more data
good job Joe, things are coming together more and more as you go along
I have been working on a similar design for my rockets. (Except they are a lot smaller) I think this is awesome!
Love how the webcam is taped over
You're not alone on that one
I am super excited to be joining the BPS Internship this December. My uniform is on the way!
Really fascinating failure analysis! (Not a failure! Progress!)
Failure? No, more data!
Congrats! That was great!