First TPI intake compared to Factory. Saving Sally #7
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มี.ค. 2021
- A basic overview of the first impressions I got when comparing a First TPI intake, to the factory version. I want the engine bay to look as factory as possible, while allowing for the headroom to hit the power numbers the factory intake just can't support. If the "factory look" is important, the list of aftermarket intakes is pretty short. The first TPI intake was the only one that checked all the boxes for me. If your third gen Camaro/Firebird, or 4th gen Corvette needs an easy breath, and your considering this intake, this video may shed a little more light on the First TPI setup...
What cam did I go with? • Saving Sally, Comp Cam...
This TPI intake is the best looking induction system I've ever seen on a, engine. I love the looks of it.
It looks great but doesn't work as well as it looks.
Send the entire intake to Extrude Hone for porting and then have Ken at FIRST bore the Throttle Body to 76mm. You will be happy. I have a highly modified FIRST intake making 578 hp at 5900 rpm on a 408.
But what about torque
I have a Fastburn ZZ4 in my 89 Corvette with a TPIs miniram crane spring and 1.6 ratio roller rockers and 36# injectors making over 650 with 2 stage nitrous set up. Kenne-Belle modified my computer and this was a car I built back in 1998. Its an easy mid 10 second car and pulls all the way to 7k. The only tuned port manifold to run if its horsepower youre seeking is a TPIs not some reinvention of what the factory gave us in 1985.
TPI is the best looking factory intake ever made. I’ve had 4 L98 cars in my life and nothing like the instant torque. I had a bunch of SLP and Hawks 3 rd gen stuff on mine. As awesome as it was, my plan now is LS3 or LS7 swap.
Look great flow like crap
@@BlackRam17 well yeah compared to anything that came after, but better than everything that came before
Truly fantastic editing / production value. Great to see another FIRST intake fan out there and great to see a side-by-side comparison between the two in a video format like this.
Some other comparison data: The FIRST's 71mm throttle body flows 835 CFM and Ken will provide a ported 1000+ CFM throttle body free of charge for anyone running a first on a large CID engine. The CSA of the runners is 2.68", they have a 1.75" stock inside diameter and can be opened to 1.85" with porting. The stock TPI base has a Felpro 1204 sided port exist; the FIRST can be opened up to a GIANT Felpro 1207 -just tell Ken which Felpro gasket you want it opened up to and he has a CNC profile for them all. -A FIRST was flowed on Big Joe Sherman's flow bench and pulled 294 CFM on the weakest runner as-cast and just over 300 CFM on the others...
My numbers say 14.25" long runners from the runner entry at the plenum to the exit in the base; with a 5" long head intake port = 19.25", which IS a bit shorter than a stock GM TPI.
Hey there! Glad I found your channel. I just picked up an 88 Formula 350, so this is all good info. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for watching!
Great editing and content. Keep it up man, enjoyed the vid.
I get fed up with suppliers giving the customer what the supplier wants them to have instead of what the customer actually asks for. Keep up the good work mate. I'll be installing the FIRST intake on a 383 and dropping it in my c4 vette.
Quality video. Thank you for sharing!
Great video from a thirdgen fan/owner - subscribed!
Glad I found this video, I run the AS&M runners with a ported stock base and ported plenum on a mild 383, never had it on the dyno, It will be interesting to see how the First intake does.
If you'd post a video on the setup I'd love to know what it makes. Did you do a cam upgrade and or any head work when you did the 383? Thanks!
@@klx_gaming4962 I have a video on my channel about my 383.
Nice video Jason, looks like a fun build! Subscribed!
Thanks for the vote of confidence. More vids to come.
I have a 383 in my Chevelle and want to install a TPI on it. This led me here.
The key is Siamese the intake runners on these setups. I probably had one of the first cars turning 6400 rpm on what looked to be a stock intake car. No slp runners on the car all stock parts besides the bbl twin 58mm tb. 400whp at 6400 rpm. Afr 195 heads small cam and my home ported stock intake and runners. You get two to act as one by opening then up at the intake side up into the runner then cut about 1.5 inches into the intake side. Then it uses two tubes to feed one port. Super sleeper back in the day. Still have that car 1992 formula. Now has a Holley stealth ram and single turbo on it. Turbo specific cam same afr heads 800whp on 12 psi through the 700r4 I built. Cars still on 93 only too back then when built it in early 2000s we didn’t have ethanol. We did a lot back then with way less technology.
Back years ago , I was thinking about upgrading the tpi, on my formula firebird, I added it all up, it was more than I gave for the car! The cheapest thing to do would been use a single plane carb intake, machine for injectors, and add a throttle body,
I did port and port match mine, and add a fuel psi regulator, much larger base and runners would help lots, a larger plenum wouldn't hurt either...
That’s the problem with upgrading these old cars. All the parts in the world… half decent LS lumps for the price of a set of heads……
Tpi intakes we're awesome for making low end power. Anything above 5000rpm is pretty much not gonna happen. The upper plenum volume needs to be much larger to get past that 5000RPM hump. This "FIRST" branded version looks slightly larger. Curious to see if it's large enough though lol
Nice physical comparison video. The plugs on the bottom of the intake are for the EGR system. It appears that the First intake doesn’t have the EGR system.
Did you get this intake installed yet? What computer are you planning on using to control the engine?
i might have missed it, who makes the aftermarket TPI setup?
How's this car coming along ? Did the intake work well ?
do you need to change the computer or use the stock
I had a distributer cover machined for mine from the factory piece.
Can this go on just about any gen one block? Or onlh specifically the l98 block i think i remember theres a few differences i might be gaslighting myself though
Does anyone know if this set up will fit under the hood of a stock 90 c4 corvette
Yes, it will fit no problem.
Do you think you can add hp with just performance intake without work to bottom end ? And by how much?
I am sure it would. Hard to say how much, but I am betting a small increase in RPM rev range, and with the better flow, bigger injectors along with a bigger fuel pump would be needed to take full advantage. The issue for me is that old 305 is tired! Needed a rebuild anyway.
What heads/cam did you end up with. I have a c4 that I did heads cam and first on and will eventually do 383. Interested In the power you ended up with
The cam is Comp cams 08-502-8. Not a particularly lofty cam, but should give instant torque, and be strong to 5500 or so. The heads were Earson C1982363 heads. Not a super well known head, but came recommended and at a good price, so I went with them. Hopefully I have the engine running soon and will put up a video of some numbers as soon as I do. Thanks for watching!
@@SavingSally interested to see how it does on the dyno! I am running the same cam in my 350, but went with smaller intake runner on the heads. I figured based on the flow chart that they flow enough air, I'm not running high rpms, so the smaller runner should help make torque static.trickflow.com/global/images/chartsguides/t/tfs-30210002.pdf
I have a 88 formula firebird with a 305 tbi and a 85 too 1c5 California Iroc Camaro tpi I been wanting to fix them they deserve to be on the road again
I wanted to do a vortec head and that first set up with an lt1 cam just cause I’m I’m on a budget
Wow, I had to look up that 1C5 code. That's a rare car for sure. Thanks for watching and I hope you get to work on your car soon!
I'm pretty sure that the stock intake TPI system is from an F body and not a Corvette TPI.
Vette's didn't have EGR passages in their aluminum heads, so there wouldn't be an EGR valve on the intake manifold.
Saving an old Trans Am is my dream 😎
The valve thing is the EGR. I'd be interested where the First mounts it.
The plugs under the factory base are called core plugs. Those are set in therr during the casting process. It's common on large aluminum castings, the 80s foxbody efi 5.0 intake has some at the front and rear also fyi.
You don't have provisions for an EGR... you don't need it. It's just to heat the manifold up to improve emissions with a cold engine, but it gives you worse performance and mileage once the engine is warm.
@@johnclifford1911
You need it in California if you intend to stay emissions compliant.
@@xmo552yet another reason, if more were needed, to not live in the state of California.
@@johnclifford1911
Agreed. Ugh don't remind me. I love the state and weather.... just not so many restrictions. They're taking our freedoms and people don't even realize it. Damn sheep.
But, yeah... anything 1976 and newer still needs to pass smog tests here.
1998 and newer diesels must be smogged. I "think" they want to smog motorcycles. 2010 and older class 4/5 and up diesels must be off the road by Jan 1 2023. That's f450 f550 4500 5500 f650 f750 and semi. And now they're pushing for all electrics and also no exhaust mods and no race mods. They want race cars to stay smog compliant even if they're never driven on streets. They're as smart as my pet rock.
@@johnclifford1911You can add EGR via the lower intakes plug. EGR isn’t about warming the intake (that’s what an exhaust crossover is for); EGR is the original form of “displacement on demand” and while at highway cruise, the engine pulls in inert exhaust gas to displace some air and fuel which reduces pumping losses and make the engine ACT like its smaller at highway cruise. It does require increased ignition vacuum advance, though as the exhaust gas makes the air/ fuel burn slower.
Common on F body and G body cars to delete the EGR valve that’s why the 1st take has the plate in place of where the EGR valve goes & maybe they left it as an option instead of sealing it off to begin with.
after the throttle body. is there air deflectors or something to help the rear intake track get its share of air? or is it a open plenum?
larry
It's open.
Larry what do you mean by “air deflectors?” The stock throttle body has a small bump on the floor of the exit... Is this an air deflector?
Can you explain how an air deflector would help the rear runners? Really interested in this.
@@adamarndt7617 Same.
Larry, sharing images in YT comments is painful but let me try.
This photo will show you the entrance to the plenum, there's a hump in the bottom of the plenum -originally these were drilled out for an EGR passage, just like a stock TPI, but to pass CA emissions you don't actually need an EGR tunnel, but you need it to APPEAR to have EGR, so Ken @ FIRST stopped drilling them out years ago. (and you can implement EGR without the tunnel). facebook.com/photo?fbid=10156339708301929&set=a.10154956065381929
In THIS photo you can see the throttle body exit's version of that rear bump. I was assuming that the bump was simply as a transition to the EGR tunnel renmant in the plenum casting, but you're the 2nd person I've heard from to hint that there might be an air distribution value in such a feature: facebook.com/photo?fbid=10156339708286929&set=a.10154956065381929
I ground the bump out of my throttle body exist and about 3" into the beginning of the plenum seeing it as an airflow limitation at peak RPM... If there's an air flow distribution benefit, I know Ken sells a plate that can go between the plenum and throttle body that restores the bump, so I'm really curious. -I'm controlling my FIRST engine with Holley HP so I technically can adjust fuel trims cylinder to cylinder if I had EGT data, but I'd prefer a more even cylinder to cylinder distribution... facebook.com/photo?fbid=10156339708711929&set=a.10154956065381929
I do wonder how did fuel economy changed with the addition of a better intake? I suppose the up in performance made the fuel consumption worse right? (Asking because I am from across the pond in Europe where gas is kinda pricey to say the least)
Almost certainly would have a negative impact on fuel economy if it were the only change. I actually plan on changing the rear end to some "taller" gears to help compensate for the massive gain in torque. With the taller gears and bigger torque, it's possible to see an improvement in fuel economy. In fact, I'm trying to make the car drive and feel like a 6th generation corvette, and those cars use a tall gear ratio with big torque to make 29 miles per gallon freeway, and 18 or 20 in town. Either is a big increase over the factory economy of the third gen F-body. My car, and the C6 weigh within a couple hundred pounds of each other, so it's within reach for sure.
@@SavingSally This is excellent news, my plan is to get an old 82' Z28 with that underwhelming 305 and slap this thing on. I think with the addition of a better cam (not something outrageous) and some trick flow heads I should get around 300ish hp and around 25 mpg right?
Side note: I am keeping the 305 because a) Ordering a 350 or an LS from the states is Expensive as hell b) To pass the car as a historical vehicle I need to keep the original engine (I have to do that because here anything more than 2L is taxed ridiculously heavily)
@@d-phoenix2198 To be honest, the 305 is a fantastic engine. It gets a bad reputation because the TBI version was pretty sluggish. The TPI version performed pretty close to the 350, and in fact, I used to race the 350's on the regular, and some times managed to outrun them. I was planning a video on this subject, but since you brought it up... The manual transmissions were mandatory 305's because GM didn't have a manual that could take the torque loading. Still, the power ratings between the 350 and 305 (when it was a TPI car) weren't that far off from each other.
230 hp on the 305 and 245 hp on the 350 with 300 lb ft on the 305 and 345 ft lbs on the 350. You should be more than able to make that up the difference with decent heads and the First TPI intake. As far as hitting 300, I didn't research down that path because 350's are a dime a dozen around here, but seems doable.
For my money, I would find a way to convert your cam to roller, pick up some aluminum heads, slap the first TPI on and enjoy! The roller cams allow your car to behave like a factory cam is installed when you're driving easy, but it'll put power down like an aftermarket cam when you put your foot in it because it holds the valves open longer. I have a video on that subject, so if you aren't sure what I mean, check that one out. Oh, and thanks for watching!
@@SavingSally This sounds like a pretty good deal (I mean it has the awful 3 speed auto because it was apparently the only option on the rare Z28-E, which this car is, yet this is no issue since this car is intended to be driven around as a cruiser just like it was intended from factory. Yes a traveling Z28. It was advertised as a Reisewagen in Germany. Literally travel-vehicle) but it should be able to manage the torque. Thank you so much for the advice! You have earned a sub which you definitely deserve!
Is the 6.3 black firebird intake available?
Its the same one in the video, just with paint on it. You can order one pre-painted from firstfuelinjection.com/
This is great to know if I ever decide to get into another 80s camaro iroc . I would rather improve on the tpi engine then doing an LS swap
It should also get very decent gas mileage
LS Engines run great and make great power. They are also much lighter than their cast iron predecessors. They can be a bitch to put in though...
What brand intake is that?
First TPI. firstfuelinjection.com/
I think with the first tpi you could run a higher revving can and enjoy it
I thought it may be possible, but for this build, I wanted to play it on the safer side. If I do another car, I was thinking of a higher rev limit, but that's on down the road a bit for sure.
You don't need the egr valve under the intake .scrap it. What are you going to use for a distributor Since the factory HEI supposedly does not fit ?
Not at that point yet, so not sure on the distributor. The car is in paint til next week, then the engine swap starts. Whatever I do, it'll be in an upcoming video...
@@SavingSally Looking into this intake for my 85 C4 Vette. The HEI will not fit and these HEI's are made for the EFI. Also this intake still makes power at low RPM because of the long runners. Still should be cool for a 383 that is a torque motor anyway . Let us know about your cam and computer program .
@@alabamahouseflippers4480 I already did a video in the cam. I'll put the link below. As for the program, I plan or road tripping the car to Hawks Motor Sports in South Carolina for a dyno tune. They're one of two places I've found that still does the dyno tune for these cars. As for the rest - I'll have to figure that out as it comes. Thanks for following. th-cam.com/video/OP3KTwpsIgg/w-d-xo.html
@@alabamahouseflippers4480 I am not sure where you got this information from that the HEI distributor will not work with the FIRST TPI. But both the large and small cap HEI distributors will work with the FIRST. You can see this on our installation videos on our channel.
@@firstperformancecenter Great news .Thanks'
For real power the TPIS Mini Ram II is the way to go.. Good video , thanks !
Yeah if you can get one. I left them five messages and sent them multiple emails. Nothing. I'd look elsewhere unless you can find someone selling one used.
Trans Am & TPI not exactly designed for flat line. More for blowing away other cars on curves turns and accelerating faster. Curve to curve turn to turn. MY OPINION
My brothers gonna do A 383 tpi
For A 79 gmc stepside k series.
Ill have to let him know about this video.
he likes nice shit.
What ECU did you go with, your are so limited with the stock ECU it isnt even funny?
The best way to improve on tpi is to replace it with a carburetor.
Dude, kinda winging it aren't you? Any motor head vaguely knowledgeable with TPI would have been more informative. Richard Holdener has a lot of dyno videos on TPI. The factory throttle body is 525 cfm where a 58mm BBS flows 1000 cfm, so what is the First? Those plugs under the base I believe are to let the sand out of the casting for the tube underneath the runners for cold start/PCV that First doesn't support.
Yes. Completely winging it. I said at 2:16 that I didn't know enough about the subject to be educating anyone - it was just intended to be a comparison video "as I saw it" between the two intakes. Also, if you follow the channel, I said in my second video at the 8 minute 12 second mark that this car project was partially about learning a new craft. Never came on here to pretend to be an expert, and I made a pretty good effort to be up front about that.
If I had known the flow capabilities of the first throttle body, believe me, I would have included it. That information wasn't laying around for me to find, didn't come in the manuals for the intake, and at least at the time of this video filming, wasn't even available on the first tpi website either.
As for Richard Holdener, I've watched his videos, and in fact, I sent him a message offering to ship my intake to him for a testing video, but he never responded. I figure either he wasn't interested, or if he never got the message, but in any case, we never got together.
The stock FIRST throttle body is 71mm and flows 835 CFM. If you have a large inch engine FIRST will port the throttle body for you FOR FREE which then flows 1020 or 1050 CFM (can't remember... Maybe Ken @ FIRST will chime in on here?). Depending upon which throttle body sizing or CFM requirement calculator you use you'll get different numbers but an SBC 350 @ 85% VE @ 6,000 RPM requires only 671 CFM of air; a 383 @ 85% VE @ 6,200 RPM requires 759 CFM.
IF you had a FIRST TPI SBC 350 engine combo that made peak HP @ 6,000 RPM (not at all common with a runner this long), you should have a 78mm throttlebody; you'd stand to gain 12 hp only at the peak by moving from the 71mm throttle body to the ported 80mm throttle body.
If you are a "numbers guy" the stock TPI runner ID is 1.5"; FIRST is 1.75" ID as-cast. The FIRST runners support an absolute max runner ID of 1.97" at the plenum and 1.9" down at the base entry.
FIRST has a bit less total runner length than a stock TPI, too. 14.25" intake total runner length + typical SBC 23 deg head of 5" = 19.21" vs. GM TPI's 21"+.
A stock FIRST flows 290+ CFM on every single runner and most flow slightly over 300 CFM.
The FIRST Plenum is larger but this is the one item I just haven't been able to find data for and I didn't really want to seal mine up and pour water into it just to find out the plenum volume.
The FIRST base can be ported up to a 1207 FELPRO intake port on FIRST's CNC machine upon request at purchase, too so it's got a TON of meat to support some BIG heads on big cubic inches.
@@adamarndt7617 that's good data. tnx
I have no idea why people think the TPI was the best intake ever made. It makes no power and can't support any RPM. Why do you want an intake that face plants at 4400rpm when your redline is 5500rpm? Don't hit me with the "low end street torque" argument, it's a corvette not a truck. Chevy put the 350 TPI out the door at 230hp which is just sorry. A simple 4 barrel carb and dual plane easily nets big HP/TQ gains throughout the curve.
I agree with your sentiment on TPI and top end power but a 4 barrel intake and carb WONT make more TQ. Be accurate when you try to post facts.
I had a 1985 Trans Am tpi. This engine came out almost 40 years ago and it was fine for the times
The tpi was a piss poor design.