GM could have DOMINATED the truck market if they would have put the L98 TPI in the gmt400 trucks in 88 instead of going with the TBI. Ford knew well enough to put a long runner efi setup in, Dodge did as well when they switched to mpi, but GM kept the abysmal tbi around way to long. Then in 96 when they finally switched, they went with the vortec, but used a medium length runner intake with the POS spider injection.
I love the TPI . I had a 87 fiero gt with a 87 Corvette tpi 350 in it. It only dynoed 328 hp at the wheels but 462 ft lbs torque after way to much money and time in it. With the 5 speed and my disregard for the longevity of the transmissions life it was awesome. But at the time "2007" it was lots of fun and super quick. Embarrassed allot of people who spent allot more money and had a blast.
I keep getting tempted into going with a short runner intake, but every time I see one of these videos I realize I am better off with my TPI due to the rpm range that my combo spends most it's time.
@Hello Kitteh with my gearing I doubt I would ever hit 6500, my rev limiter is set to 6000, during test & tune I am at about 4800 rpm at the end of the 1/4, 12.9 @ 109 with 3.07's and all season radials, for my mild 383 and the way I use the car I am happy for now.
for short runners from what I see on the dyno curve, you neet to keep the car between 5500-6000 to maintain peak power and be superior to TPI. Below that it would make less power so will be slower. Now above 5000rpm there will be increased wear on cilinder rings and other things so if you want reliability the tpi is enough. However, the tpi makes more torque which can put more stress downstream and on rod bearings so you may need to tune it to reduce the max torque but not in the max power area. you said the rev limiter is 6k, I was wondering, did you parch the ECU bin file to accept extended tables?
TPI engines are a ton of fun if you build them correctly. I had an 87 GTA years ago that I built a 406 with good aluminum heads, smallish cam and a similarly modded TPI setup. Stop light to stop light it would destroy anything if you could get it to hook up. The real pity of the TPI though is that GM never put them into their trucks since they did make such great low speed torque.
Still driving my '88 LB9 IROC, although a few years back I pulled and rebuilt the engine. Compared to stock it's 0.020" over, has 1.6:1 rockers, 1.94" intake & 1.6" exhaust valves, 2-relief hypereutectic pistons, and Dyno Don headers. Other than porting/polishing and gasket matching ports on the throttle body and runners/intake, everything else is stock. Didn't expect any sort of earth-shattering changes--and can't really feel any difference. But after 35years, it's still fun to drive with that low-end torque.
Holley stealth ram on a 383 afr 195 heads tiny cam I made 420whp back in 2000-2001 on 93 octane on a 1992 formula. Stealth ram by far the best option as great torque and peak hp came at 6400 rpm on a cam much smaller then he was using. Car ran 11s @122 mph which back then for naturally aspirated I was spanking a lot of ls builds and many procharger 4.6 mustangs. Once I did the turbo it was all over for them all. 800whp on 12 psi with a 3200 lbs car. Same 9.5 compression motor on same pos cam 12 psi was trapping 142 mph on a radial. Still 93 octane. I was spinning up into top of second gear so had to ignore then terrible et mid 10s but in the street on a fast roll that car beat bikes and not many cars were able to give it a good run.
THANK YOU!!!!!! This is the exact question I've been grinding on all weekend. I'm going to rebuild my 288k km 305 and in the formula (cam/heads/intake/gears) I'm stuck at intake. My gut said that for my goals (300hp down low AND 30mpg) then the most i need is to maybe open flow with a throttle body and porting BUT I don't need $2000 in changes. Plus, the stock TPI can supply enough air my goal (much like you don't need huge exhaust if under ~400hp), so I can focus on efficiency. What an amazing channel you have!!!
Totally modded 89 Formula 350 TPI. 58mm TB, AS&M runners, TPIS Big Mouth lower and cam with about 220 degrees duration I think, ported plenum with a T-56 behind it. Everything was gasket matched. Had Lingenfelter headers with dual big cats into a 3.5" Single.. It almost would lift the front wheels, got 26MPG at 75MPH all day cruising on the highway. Yes and Brodix-8 180cc heads. No mufflers and unlike a lot of cars from that day with Flowmasters it wouldn't drone you to death inside. It was actually not loud until you gut on it and it snarled at you... Probably because the decent sized single. Best car I ever owned... Unfortunately had a fire so I never got it to the track. It was good for 14.7 1/4 mile before and was probably a 12 flat car after the mods, would be surprised if she dipped in the 11 second range based on other cars. We took a couple hundred pounds off with the smog pumps, ac etc... Sighh will get off work tonight and drive my Honda Insight home ;0] Love these videos.
Another great video! the first graph really showed how bad the short runner killed power below 5000, That was a terrible trade off, for a gain in just the top 1000 RPM.
Wow... I really wanted to get an ACCEL but now watching this a stock TPI isn't too shabby on a 383. I already have a rebuilt 400 engine just collecting dust. Time to put a stock TPI on that bad boy.
I remeber the day when people looked at TPI engines as pretty powerful engine especially the 5.7 version, but i can say the 5.0 fox with a 5 speed even bone stock was looked at as a serious street machine and these days people scoff at em as laugable HP. I had a buddy that had a squarebody c10 shortbed with a TPI engine and it did look sweet and with all that TQ it would roast both tires pretty good.
I had the "Super Ram" on a 383 1985 IROC-Z. So long ago, it was called the "Box Intake" by, get this-John Lingenfelter Racing!!! Yup, before John changed the name to LPE. However, computer software was virtually non-existent then (1989), and I had to make do with different chips. JLR would send them with no identification on the envelope!!! Because of this, it was very camshaft limited. I ran a flat tappet .442/.465 lift, 214/224 duration cam, with 1.6 rockers, netting .472"/.496" lift. Ran old 291 fuelie heads with 2.02 intake valve, 1.60 exhaust valve sizes, with short radius port work. I also sent my OEM intake to Extrude Hone!! Anyway-It ran around 103mph in the 1/4 mile, single tire burning for hundreds of feet with an open diff. Learned about all this reading Hot Rod Magazine when Jeff Smith was editor. If I would've had the good aluminum heads, a roller cam, and especially the computer software available today, it would've been close to the 11s@120mph. But I'll tell you this-What a torque monster!!!
That answers a question I was going to pose about switching my Porsche 924 from CIS to dual Weber DCOE. I ported the cylinder head and intake manifold, installed a bigger throttle body, and put on a 4 into 2 into 1 header, and a thinner head gasket out of a turbo. I don't have a dynamometer, but I can definitely feel a difference in the seat of the pants and how far it pulls in the rpm range. Before I did the mods it leveled out at about 5700 rpm, now it pulls strong out to 6300. So I am sticking with the CIS. I wish I had a dynamometer to verify the results.
For a sports car I would prefer the super ram. It makes good power between 4500-5500rpm where the engine would feel comfortable and be reliable. Below 4500 I would not want to much torque, to protect the gearbox and better life for components since such cars would see track days or at least some spirited driving. even 500lbft seems already high for a truck, most of the time you want low rpm torque, they normally can handle much more torque as well. -miniram for highest performance, strret/track sports car -super ram daily sports car, track reliability keeping in mid that for road courses weight and suspension setups make you fast as well. -tpi for trucks - reliability, comfort and efficiency (less friction losses at high torque low rpm) corvette basically has chosen truck setup for a sports car but with over dimensioned drivetrain and this meant super reliability which is nice for cars that are often driven hard.
Question, is it possible to get that low end horse power and torque out of an LS motor? Or, if you've already got a stock 350 in an older Tahoe, just stick with that and throw a long runner TPI on it?
It would be interesting to see the difference between the Vector W8's original manifold (used on exported cars) versus the TPI version, which was used for U.S. emissions requirements. The original version had dual plenums and shorter runners...
The US version of the W8 used a TPI style, but it was much larger than the GM TPI intake. First fuel injection still makes the US version of the W8 intake. The export version used the same base, but shorter runners like those on the Accel super ram, and then it had the twin plenums on top with balance tubes between them. So I would guess it would put down similar numbers to the super ram.
Ya it would be hard to pick the short over long with 80ft/lbs more for a while honestly I think apples to apples in a race unless that converter was real loose I think k the long might win
I had a lt1 based 383 in a 96 T/A and it was such a blast to drive. I always wanted a long runner intake for it but couldn't afford it and the intake bolts were so weird that at the time, nothing would fit and there wasn't much out there. I wish I'd kept it, but I stole the 6 speed for my swb and sold the rest
Mr. Holdener, have you ever seen the Tunnel Ram extensions sold on eBay for the old Edelbrock and Offy tunnel rams?? They come in 2 and 4 inch lengths and fit between the upper and lower manifold. It might be a lot of fun to play with.
I think the TPI on a rising boost curve with like a 3.08 gear would a riot. 1000 lb ft of tq ... yeah the mini may make 50hp more but ypu need to catch up first.
Gimme that warmed over TPI any day, and back it up with a (strong) 5-speed. Tow truck! You guys can bounce off the rev limiter all you want, I'll be part throttling it.
Really do miss my TPi 305cui Firebird. Awesome tyre-frying torque then fell flat on its face by four thousand rpm. Great for cruising along the coast, but pathetic performance, struggled to creep past 100mph, couldn't keep up with a Camry!
I'm really curious to see what a single plane 4-barrel efi setup would do compared to a Miniram. I had a nearly identical 383 to this test with a MR and it was a great driving engine. Currently working on a 434 and trying to decide of its going to be worth cutting hood up to fit a single plane or if I keep the miniram.
In one of your other videos you mentioned not testing the FIRST TPI...I believe it would have resulted close to your modified TPI...still the same length runners just bigger.
I have The First and Twin Turbos Dart Alu Heads and Hyd Roller cam Smal Turbos only 54mm K27 (Have litel bigger Turbos 64mm K29) Street car 12 bult rear end Toms axels 31 splines.
@@richardholdener1727 That is awesome! I did not expect those results - a common mod for the mr2 3sgte manifold was to chop off factory plenum and add a larger sheet metal plenum, unlocking quite a bit of power at higher boost levels!
Richard, would a purpose built engine today, same cam, heads, compression etc., etc. Only difference would be fully ported aftermarket lower TPI manifold, Big Tubes and the biggest throttle body that will fit the factory plenum. The other test would be done with a Accel Super Ram, with the same throttle body as the previous test, but with custom runner extensions so the runners were the same length (only straighter) as the GM design big tubes. Would this be a viable method to seperate the differences between runner length and plenum volume?
@Richard Holdener, they are "bigger" than the aftermarket biggest big tubes that would fit the same manifold base? I mentioned they would be straighter, at least on the top of the runner.
GM engineers knew what they were doing when they made the L98. Hp and torque were most people drive. 7k rpm sounds good but who besides a race car driver drives down the street at that rpm? Also like that it gets decent fuel economy as well.
Richard, you touched on it briefly in this video but I would like to ask for some more info about the effects of plenum volume. Ask 10 people on the internet how much volume is enough and you'll get 11 answers. 50% displacement to 400% displacement etc. How much does it really matter on a given engine setup? Obviously a smaller volume is easier to fabricate, and probably will respond faster to throttle inputs, but is there a risk of starving the motor at high RPM by having a "tank" too small? I put a Chevy 3.9L 60-degree V6 into my 944 and had to make an upper intake to fit under the hood - despite the packaging challenges the total volume is slightly greater than the total engine displacement. It runs great but I am considering making another manifold to make room for other stuff in the engine bay and if making it smaller won't hurt then I would be inclined to do so.
@@andyharman3022 It should fit great, and since a Miata can take a normal transmission it should be a relatively easy swap. I think I remember seeing someone put an older 3.4L into a Miata which is almost the same in external dimensions. I run the engine on Microsquirt - since this MS can't control VVT, I locked the VVT phaser to its base 9* fully-advanced position, then dialed the cam gear back 1 tooth to retard it 7.2 degrees. Net result is the cam is fixed at 1.8* advanced and it makes this old car FAST. I don't think I hurt the stock 240hp power rating any by doing that, it can get scary sometimes lol
Holley Stealth Ram has been (KING) since it's introduction in 2003! You don't lose a super amount of torque, but you get the HP flow needed... @Richard Holdner, Still waiting for that "VIDEO" of a Gen 1 SBC type compact EFI whipplecharger that you claim there is out there!....
@@richardholdener1727 It is (KING) when compared to what you get... It is the intake that gives you the most TQ/HP compared to other intakes. Out of all of your tests, the one that gives you the most AVG HP/TQ is the stealthram..... Your own tests show this. Shorter runners you lose more Tq.. Longer runners you lose HP... So the one that gives you peak HP and the lowest loss of TQ for said gain of HP intake is the stealthram. And yes.. A whipple EFI type like the Eaton Magnacharger brand styles that bolt right on a GEN 1 SBC in place of the intake itself. Haven't found the one you claimed you had all these videos posted on yet.. Not (1)!
@@allanb3222 He made a comment there was videos on his channel of several or something to that effect, as if they was a plentiful and many types out there when not (1) has been shown yet for EFI GEN 1 SBC. He did it in the comments of one of his videos that i commented on how the aftermarket refused to make those compact whipple/eaton type superchargers like whipplechargers do for everything under the sun nowadays but not for for GEN 1 SBC's because they knew if they did no one would buy LSX shit anymore due to SBC making equal power with them. He claimed they did make them and he had videos here on this channel of numerous ones he had tested or again something to that effect.. That happened. He knows it happened. I look forward to seeing all these "VIDEOS" he claimed he had..
Hello Brother Richard I was wondering what would be better for my 72 C20 350 motor 416 58cc heads, voodoo 256, 1.5 roller rockers, long tube headers a 200 r4 4.11 gears, 235 85 r16 would a custom tpi work better than a Edelbrock performer with a 650 AVS2 or QJet ? LOOKING FOR best power below 5800 RPM?
@@richardholdener1727 Jake 72c20 man here again could you do a test of 305 heads on a 350 and 383 combo with a smaller and bigger cam combo so I can see how 305 heads react to being on larger displacement?
I wonder that I has turbo fire 307 and can TPI intake manifold place in GM 68 307? Tell me more information about tpi intake manifold use on GM 68? Can or impossible.
Which intake setup would you put on a stock ZZ4 long block with long tube headers? Large tube TPI, Mini-ram or Stealth ram. The car gets raced and street driven
ON IR STACK INJECTION, THE RUNNER IS PARTLY BEFORE THROTTLE AND PARTLY AFTER-BOTH AD RUNNER LENGTH AND BOTH MAKE A PRONOUNCED DIFFERENCE IN THE POWER CURVE AS SHOWN. ON A COMMON PLENUM MOTOR, THERE IS NO RUNNER LENGTH IN FRONT OF THE THROTTLE BODY-THE RUNNER HAS ALREADY TERMINATED INTO THE PLENUM-LONGER AIR INTAKES IN FRONT OF THE THROTTLE BODY ON A COMMON PLENUM CAN ALSO CHANGE THE POWER CURVE-ESPECIALLY ON A 4-CYLINDER HONDA
Would exhaust primary length changes also have such a dramatic effect? Is it possible to go for SUPER high rpm hp with a shorty intake and shorty headers? And of course the reverse for torque? How whacky could this make the power curve?
So with a milder cam would the torque number for the tpi manifold have been higher? Is it solely runner length or does the shape make some (minor) difference, what I mean is does a straight intake runner flow better than the curved (tpi style) intake runner?
I have Efi first intake lång runner and I have Dart heads Alu roller hyd cam Twin Turbo 355cui..build this Engine 1996.Mayby coming tou The Street 2023 .Standing tou long in The garage..Corvette 74 custom build rear and from 80 The fenders back are bigger and have strong 12 bult axel, Toms 30 splines axels in The weels.31 stick axel in The center 12 bult. Is this excel or much stronger than the Orginal.Hope can handel mayby 800whp...Spell like hell sorry bay that.Dou The best I can...Make May day (Corvette).
I have a heavily loaded c3500 that always tows. It's got a stock 350 stock heads stock intake stock can stock exhaust no ecm no O2s no cats all stock. It has tons of power, 10-15 mpg, and she's fast with 4.56:1. I think I want to run it on a stock tpi intake.
@@regal105 Nice. Which heads? Stock cam? What kind of MPG does she give you? This truck of mine does heavy dump runs or she's always hooked to a trailer. I need good MPG. I've had big blocks but never one in a truck honestly.
@@richardholdener1727 reason I ask is that the development of the Vector's DOHC engine was stalled after a catastrophic backfire which destroyed the intake manifold. I was told that it was because the stroke was longer than the intake runner length. I find this doubtful. My uneducated guess would be cam timing issues.
and if we'd chucked a fully divided dual plane on there with it's somewhat short runners the results would have us saying What The Hell. EDIT I know, everybody considers dual planes to have long runners.....except those that have measured them....long compared to a short runner single plane only.
I'm 41 and inhereted my 88 gta trans am Pontiac firebird tpi and t5 9 bolt 305 moddeded I did everything 14 30 at 99mph smoking the street tires and now I have a 383 built forged guts aluminum heads cam and hsri and bbk 58 mm tb I miss the torque but the high end power walking guys makes it amazing I know my rpm limit Ali's 5500 but I need to change it 6000 I think my cam is maxed out at 5500 Black and gold ws6 4 paint jobs and a new floor all prof Dada car brand new and then gave it to my mom she drove it to work daily 25 years then my dad died and she gave the car to me it's a std and it hurts her foot to drive it So she she's me smoking driving it
1988 there were only 861 t5 305tpi custom made in the factory in 88 And it took over 3 months to get them orderd All automatic 1100 And we live in Ontario Canada So my auto shop teacher and was like to this day never saw one ever It inspired me to work on gm cars alot Sbc We even did a clutch job for credits I got the auto award in grade 12 I have it hanging in my wall
The recap on torque at 9:00 is all I needed to see. Beautious. 👍😍
Tuned Port Injection - The greatest truck intake that never was!
They knew what they were doing. Need to fix your Vette/Camaro/TA? Get parts off a truck. Some of that went away with the LS.
GM could have DOMINATED the truck market if they would have put the L98 TPI in the gmt400 trucks in 88 instead of going with the TBI. Ford knew well enough to put a long runner efi setup in, Dodge did as well when they switched to mpi, but GM kept the abysmal tbi around way to long. Then in 96 when they finally switched, they went with the vortec, but used a medium length runner intake with the POS spider injection.
That stock appearing TPI would make an outstanding truck engine. Wow that’s some low end grunt😮
I was a kid when the TPI engines came out. It was like looking into the future. We were like those first moneys that discovered fire.
I love the TPI .
I had a 87 fiero gt with a 87 Corvette tpi 350 in it. It only dynoed 328 hp at the wheels but 462 ft lbs torque after way to much money and time in it. With the 5 speed and my disregard for the longevity of the transmissions life it was awesome.
But at the time "2007" it was lots of fun and super quick.
Embarrassed allot of people who spent allot more money and had a blast.
Even on street tires at the strip I could dump the clutch at full throttle and just bang gears as fast as I could. So much fun.
That must've been helluva handful and a lot of fun 👍
How did you tune it?
@@xmo552 it was on mega squirt , so tune with a laptop.
Low speed torque is my favorite
I keep getting tempted into going with a short runner intake, but every time I see one of these videos I realize I am better off with my TPI due to the rpm range that my combo spends most it's time.
@Hello Kitteh with my gearing I doubt I would ever hit 6500, my rev limiter is set to 6000, during test & tune I am at about 4800 rpm at the end of the 1/4, 12.9 @ 109 with 3.07's and all season radials, for my mild 383 and the way I use the car I am happy for now.
@@E.T.GARAGE Heck yeah, only a TPI will get you a 12.9 ET with 3.07s unless you're running a bunch more inches. Sounds great!
@@rotaxtwin I have to launch real easy so I don't break the tiny little dana 36 in the rear.
@@E.T.GARAGE Yeah, good idea.
for short runners from what I see on the dyno curve, you neet to keep the car between 5500-6000 to maintain peak power and be superior to TPI. Below that it would make less power so will be slower.
Now above 5000rpm there will be increased wear on cilinder rings and other things so if you want reliability the tpi is enough. However, the tpi makes more torque which can put more stress downstream and on rod bearings so you may need to tune it to reduce the max torque but not in the max power area.
you said the rev limiter is 6k, I was wondering, did you parch the ECU bin file to accept extended tables?
TPI would make a great daily driver truck or heavy car engine.
Drove my GTA off the Pontiac dealership in 89'...nothing but love for the TPI L98's
TPI engines are a ton of fun if you build them correctly. I had an 87 GTA years ago that I built a 406 with good aluminum heads, smallish cam and a similarly modded TPI setup. Stop light to stop light it would destroy anything if you could get it to hook up.
The real pity of the TPI though is that GM never put them into their trucks since they did make such great low speed torque.
Still driving my '88 LB9 IROC, although a few years back I pulled and rebuilt the engine. Compared to stock it's 0.020" over, has 1.6:1 rockers, 1.94" intake & 1.6" exhaust valves, 2-relief hypereutectic pistons, and Dyno Don headers. Other than porting/polishing and gasket matching ports on the throttle body and runners/intake, everything else is stock. Didn't expect any sort of earth-shattering changes--and can't really feel any difference. But after 35years, it's still fun to drive with that low-end torque.
Holley stealth ram on a 383 afr 195 heads tiny cam I made 420whp back in 2000-2001 on 93 octane on a 1992 formula. Stealth ram by far the best option as great torque and peak hp came at 6400 rpm on a cam much smaller then he was using. Car ran 11s @122 mph which back then for naturally aspirated I was spanking a lot of ls builds and many procharger 4.6 mustangs. Once I did the turbo it was all over for them all. 800whp on 12 psi with a 3200 lbs car. Same 9.5 compression motor on same pos cam 12 psi was trapping 142 mph on a radial. Still 93 octane. I was spinning up into top of second gear so had to ignore then terrible et mid 10s but in the street on a fast roll that car beat bikes and not many cars were able to give it a good run.
Man I try to explain this all the time to people, now I just send them to your channel!! Thanks Rich!!!
THANK YOU!!!!!! This is the exact question I've been grinding on all weekend. I'm going to rebuild my 288k km 305 and in the formula (cam/heads/intake/gears) I'm stuck at intake. My gut said that for my goals (300hp down low AND 30mpg) then the most i need is to maybe open flow with a throttle body and porting BUT I don't need $2000 in changes. Plus, the stock TPI can supply enough air my goal (much like you don't need huge exhaust if under ~400hp), so I can focus on efficiency.
What an amazing channel you have!!!
YES!
TPI
Be cool to see a FIRST TPI curve as well
Totally modded 89 Formula 350 TPI. 58mm TB, AS&M runners, TPIS Big Mouth lower and cam with about 220 degrees duration I think, ported plenum with a T-56 behind it. Everything was gasket matched. Had Lingenfelter headers with dual big cats into a 3.5" Single.. It almost would lift the front wheels, got 26MPG at 75MPH all day cruising on the highway. Yes and Brodix-8 180cc heads. No mufflers and unlike a lot of cars from that day with Flowmasters it wouldn't drone you to death inside. It was actually not loud until you gut on it and it snarled at you... Probably because the decent sized single. Best car I ever owned... Unfortunately had a fire so I never got it to the track. It was good for 14.7 1/4 mile before and was probably a 12 flat car after the mods, would be surprised if she dipped in the 11 second range based on other cars. We took a couple hundred pounds off with the smog pumps, ac etc... Sighh will get off work tonight and drive my Honda Insight home ;0] Love these videos.
I just watched the LB9 TPI 305 test!!!!
605 hp and probably 25 to 30 mpg
Perfect for my 63 chevy
I'm off to watch that now
Another great video! the first graph really showed how bad the short runner killed power below 5000,
That was a terrible trade off, for a gain in just the top 1000 RPM.
Wow... I really wanted to get an ACCEL but now watching this a stock TPI isn't too shabby on a 383. I already have a rebuilt 400 engine just collecting dust. Time to put a stock TPI on that bad boy.
I love both of my turbo tpi engines give a great power by 2500
I just love that SR intake.
I remeber the day when people looked at TPI engines as pretty powerful engine especially the 5.7 version, but i can say the 5.0 fox with a 5 speed even bone stock was looked at as a serious street machine and these days people scoff at em as laugable HP. I had a buddy that had a squarebody c10 shortbed with a TPI engine and it did look sweet and with all that TQ it would roast both tires pretty good.
I had the "Super Ram" on a 383 1985 IROC-Z. So long ago, it was called the "Box Intake" by, get this-John Lingenfelter Racing!!! Yup, before John changed the name to LPE. However, computer software was virtually non-existent then (1989), and I had to make do with different chips. JLR would send them with no identification on the envelope!!! Because of this, it was very camshaft limited. I ran a flat tappet .442/.465 lift, 214/224 duration cam, with 1.6 rockers, netting .472"/.496" lift. Ran old 291 fuelie heads with 2.02 intake valve, 1.60 exhaust valve sizes, with short radius port work. I also sent my OEM intake to Extrude Hone!! Anyway-It ran around 103mph in the 1/4 mile, single tire burning for hundreds of feet with an open diff. Learned about all this reading Hot Rod Magazine when Jeff Smith was editor. If I would've had the good aluminum heads, a roller cam, and especially the computer software available today, it would've been close to the 11s@120mph. But I'll tell you this-What a torque monster!!!
Man this is cool! It makes me miss my 90 formula 350…
Great information thanks for sharing
Thanks a bunch for the time warp back to when TPI cars where newish.......
Running basically stock TPI, DAMN GOOD TORQUE, great autocross motor. Richard would using those "balls" to expand the tubes be worth it. G
Check out Charles Servidio. He's modifying a stock TPI base. It's not a size issue, it's a shape issue.
That answers a question I was going to pose about switching my Porsche 924 from CIS to dual Weber DCOE. I ported the cylinder head and intake manifold, installed a bigger throttle body, and put on a 4 into 2 into 1 header, and a thinner head gasket out of a turbo. I don't have a dynamometer, but I can definitely feel a difference in the seat of the pants and how far it pulls in the rpm range. Before I did the mods it leveled out at about 5700 rpm, now it pulls strong out to 6300. So I am sticking with the CIS. I wish I had a dynamometer to verify the results.
1970 LS6 454 advertised at 450hp @ 5600 and 500 ft lbs @ 3600 rpm. Big extruded TPIS did 450hp and 533ft lbs. What's not to like about that combo?
Less weight
More MPG I assume.
Is that tpis a longer runner also
For a sports car I would prefer the super ram. It makes good power between 4500-5500rpm where the engine would feel comfortable and be reliable. Below 4500 I would not want to much torque, to protect the gearbox and better life for components since such cars would see track days or at least some spirited driving. even 500lbft seems already high
for a truck, most of the time you want low rpm torque, they normally can handle much more torque as well.
-miniram for highest performance, strret/track sports car
-super ram daily sports car, track reliability keeping in mid that for road courses weight and suspension setups make you fast as well.
-tpi for trucks - reliability, comfort and efficiency (less friction losses at high torque low rpm)
corvette basically has chosen truck setup for a sports car but with over dimensioned drivetrain and this meant super reliability which is nice for cars that are often driven hard.
Question, is it possible to get that low end horse power and torque out of an LS motor? Or, if you've already got a stock 350 in an older Tahoe, just stick with that and throw a long runner TPI on it?
Great video! I loved my 5.0 TPI
Wow... Surprising... Make us think of the tuning extremes with a two stroke engine
It would be interesting to see the difference between the Vector W8's original manifold (used on exported cars) versus the TPI version, which was used for U.S. emissions requirements. The original version had dual plenums and shorter runners...
The US version of the W8 used a TPI style, but it was much larger than the GM TPI intake. First fuel injection still makes the US version of the W8 intake. The export version used the same base, but shorter runners like those on the Accel super ram, and then it had the twin plenums on top with balance tubes between them. So I would guess it would put down similar numbers to the super ram.
@@THEFERMANATOR right. The larger runners wouldn't change the power band. I reckon the Accel unit might be the most comparable to the export version.
I noticed that Vector engine a loooooong time ago as being a Chevy, but I could find nothing to verify...although it was obvious.
Tons of cars use dual stage intakes with long runners bypassed at high rpm...
Now that's some big block torque from a small block
I wonder how the MPG is
Ya it would be hard to pick the short over long with 80ft/lbs more for a while honestly I think apples to apples in a race unless that converter was real loose I think k the long might win
I would love to see how a first tpi compares to the modded tpi. I would love to see a 300hp street sbc with a dual plane vs tpi.
I had a lt1 based 383 in a 96 T/A and it was such a blast to drive. I always wanted a long runner intake for it but couldn't afford it and the intake bolts were so weird that at the time, nothing would fit and there wasn't much out there. I wish I'd kept it, but I stole the 6 speed for my swb and sold the rest
Mr. Holdener, have you ever seen the Tunnel Ram extensions sold on eBay for the old Edelbrock and Offy tunnel rams??
They come in 2 and 4 inch lengths and fit between the upper and lower manifold.
It might be a lot of fun to play with.
WOULD BE COOL
@@richardholdener1727 The guys that make them are, Dashman's Hot Rod and Speed Parts.
Give them a call, you might get a free set to play with.
It would be awesome if aftermarket companies made more variable length intake manifold so you could have the best of both.
I think the TPI on a rising boost curve with like a 3.08 gear would a riot. 1000 lb ft of tq ... yeah the mini may make 50hp more but ypu need to catch up first.
Great info as always 👍
Gimme that warmed over TPI any day, and back it up with a (strong) 5-speed. Tow truck! You guys can bounce off the rev limiter all you want, I'll be part throttling it.
Great video!
Really do miss my TPi 305cui Firebird. Awesome tyre-frying torque then fell flat on its face by four thousand rpm. Great for cruising along the coast, but pathetic performance, struggled to creep past 100mph, couldn't keep up with a Camry!
I'm really curious to see what a single plane 4-barrel efi setup would do compared to a Miniram. I had a nearly identical 383 to this test with a MR and it was a great driving engine. Currently working on a 434 and trying to decide of its going to be worth cutting hood up to fit a single plane or if I keep the miniram.
I RAN THAT TEST-SEE THE BIG TPI TEST VIDEO-WE RAN A SINGLE PLANE AND 4-HOLE TB
In one of your other videos you mentioned not testing the FIRST TPI...I believe it would have resulted close to your modified TPI...still the same length runners just bigger.
I have The First and Twin Turbos Dart Alu Heads and Hyd Roller cam Smal Turbos only 54mm K27 (Have litel bigger Turbos 64mm K29) Street car 12 bult rear end Toms axels 31 splines.
I would love to see a test with different plenum sizes compared
see the Kegalodon video
@@richardholdener1727 That is awesome! I did not expect those results - a common mod for the mr2 3sgte manifold was to chop off factory plenum and add a larger sheet metal plenum, unlocking quite a bit of power at higher boost levels!
Richard, would a purpose built engine today, same cam, heads, compression etc., etc. Only difference would be fully ported aftermarket lower TPI manifold, Big Tubes and the biggest throttle body that will fit the factory plenum. The other test would be done with a Accel Super Ram, with the same throttle body as the previous test, but with custom runner extensions so the runners were the same length (only straighter) as the GM design big tubes. Would this be a viable method to seperate the differences between runner length and plenum volume?
THE SHAPE AND DIAMETER OF THE SUPER RAM RUNNERS IS ALSO DIFFERENT
@Richard Holdener, they are "bigger" than the aftermarket biggest big tubes that would fit the same manifold base? I mentioned they would be straighter, at least on the top of the runner.
GM engineers knew what they were doing when they made the L98. Hp and torque were most people drive. 7k rpm sounds good but who besides a race car driver drives down the street at that rpm? Also like that it gets decent fuel economy as well.
1 looks like Gen 2 SBC.
Solution, Variable runner intake
Richard, you touched on it briefly in this video but I would like to ask for some more info about the effects of plenum volume. Ask 10 people on the internet how much volume is enough and you'll get 11 answers. 50% displacement to 400% displacement etc. How much does it really matter on a given engine setup?
Obviously a smaller volume is easier to fabricate, and probably will respond faster to throttle inputs, but is there a risk of starving the motor at high RPM by having a "tank" too small?
I put a Chevy 3.9L 60-degree V6 into my 944 and had to make an upper intake to fit under the hood - despite the packaging challenges the total volume is slightly greater than the total engine displacement. It runs great but I am considering making another manifold to make room for other stuff in the engine bay and if making it smaller won't hurt then I would be inclined to do so.
see the Kegalodon video
That's a neat swap. I'd like to do a 3.9L V6 into a Miata.
@@andyharman3022 It should fit great, and since a Miata can take a normal transmission it should be a relatively easy swap. I think I remember seeing someone put an older 3.4L into a Miata which is almost the same in external dimensions.
I run the engine on Microsquirt - since this MS can't control VVT, I locked the VVT phaser to its base 9* fully-advanced position, then dialed the cam gear back 1 tooth to retard it 7.2 degrees. Net result is the cam is fixed at 1.8* advanced and it makes this old car FAST. I don't think I hurt the stock 240hp power rating any by doing that, it can get scary sometimes lol
Holley Stealth Ram has been (KING) since it's introduction in 2003!
You don't lose a super amount of torque, but you get the HP flow needed...
@Richard Holdner,
Still waiting for that "VIDEO" of a Gen 1 SBC type compact EFI whipplecharger that you claim there is out there!....
This one? It's not a whipple.
th-cam.com/video/Tx55SPxNw5E/w-d-xo.html
a whipple sbc? and the Holley Stealth Ram was also tested and the results shown (but was not King)
@@richardholdener1727 It is (KING) when compared to what you get...
It is the intake that gives you the most TQ/HP compared to other intakes.
Out of all of your tests, the one that gives you the most AVG HP/TQ is the stealthram..... Your own tests show this.
Shorter runners you lose more Tq.. Longer runners you lose HP... So the one that gives you peak HP and the lowest loss of TQ for said gain of HP intake is the stealthram.
And yes.. A whipple EFI type like the Eaton Magnacharger brand styles that bolt right on a GEN 1 SBC in place of the intake itself.
Haven't found the one you claimed you had all these videos posted on yet.. Not (1)!
@@ICONBADGTA He never has claimed ,to have a Whipple small block ,on any of his videos.. 🤷
@@allanb3222 He made a comment there was videos on his channel of several or something to that effect, as if they was a plentiful and many types out there when not (1) has been shown yet for EFI GEN 1 SBC. He did it in the comments of one of his videos that i commented on how the aftermarket refused to make those compact whipple/eaton type superchargers like whipplechargers do for everything under the sun nowadays but not for for GEN 1 SBC's because they knew if they did no one would buy LSX shit anymore due to SBC making equal power with them.
He claimed they did make them and he had videos here on this channel of numerous ones he had tested or again something to that effect..
That happened. He knows it happened. I look forward to seeing all these "VIDEOS" he claimed he had..
Id go long runner, buy set drag radials and not spin the tires, just pull off from idle and smile in the rear view
Hello Brother Richard I was wondering what would be better for my 72 C20 350 motor 416 58cc heads, voodoo 256, 1.5 roller rockers, long tube headers a 200 r4 4.11 gears, 235 85 r16 would a custom tpi work better than a Edelbrock performer with a 650 AVS2 or QJet ? LOOKING FOR best power below 5800 RPM?
DUAL PLANE AND CARB
@@richardholdener1727 Jake 72c20 man here again could you do a test of 305 heads on a 350 and 383 combo with a smaller and bigger cam combo so I can see how 305 heads react to being on larger displacement?
I noticed the effects of runner length seem to converge at lower rpms I wonder what effect it has at say 1000rpm.
THERE IS VERY LITTLE EFFECT AT 1000 RPM WITH THESE LENGTHS
I wonder that I has turbo fire 307 and can TPI intake manifold place in GM 68 307? Tell me more information about tpi intake manifold use on GM 68? Can or impossible.
it is possible
Which intake setup would you put on a stock ZZ4 long block with long tube headers? Large tube TPI, Mini-ram or Stealth ram. The car gets raced and street driven
pick the power curve you want-that's why I tested them all
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you
I have a ?. I have look at photos of CamAm cars with 427/454 BBC engines in them. They have longer (4) and shorter (4) runner FI sys. on them. Why?
They have four longer and four shorter intake ports
Traditional Big block Chevys have 2 very different intake port designs on each head. Long & short runners, higher & lower airflow runners.
Where in the world did yall find that Accel super ram from?? It looks brand new.
old photos and test
Torque Shelf!!!
Need some kind of dual length runner 🤔
if the runner is between the throttle and the valve yes. but if the runner is before the throttle it will make no change.
ON IR STACK INJECTION, THE RUNNER IS PARTLY BEFORE THROTTLE AND PARTLY AFTER-BOTH AD RUNNER LENGTH AND BOTH MAKE A PRONOUNCED DIFFERENCE IN THE POWER CURVE AS SHOWN. ON A COMMON PLENUM MOTOR, THERE IS NO RUNNER LENGTH IN FRONT OF THE THROTTLE BODY-THE RUNNER HAS ALREADY TERMINATED INTO THE PLENUM-LONGER AIR INTAKES IN FRONT OF THE THROTTLE BODY ON A COMMON PLENUM CAN ALSO CHANGE THE POWER CURVE-ESPECIALLY ON A 4-CYLINDER HONDA
Love the shirt
Would exhaust primary length changes also have such a dramatic effect? Is it possible to go for SUPER high rpm hp with a shorty intake and shorty headers? And of course the reverse for torque? How whacky could this make the power curve?
primary length also has the effect-though not quite as pronounced
wowowow... huge diff between long and short. Short runner hurt the engine down low. It'd be less fun on the street
5.7L TPI whifh a T56 and a 373 posy it has to be could fast and better in top end wifh 6 speedy trans
So with a milder cam would the torque number for the tpi manifold have been higher?
Is it solely runner length or does the shape make some (minor) difference, what I mean is does a straight intake runner flow better than the curved (tpi style) intake runner?
it would be hard to make more peak torque
From them on, if I was going somewhere I was RUNNING.
F Gump,
Dynomaster
It's starting to look like the TPI is the only intake you should ever run on a street sbc.
How much spool rpm is improved with the torque runner? 500rpm?
depends on lots of other things
Tuned port injection looks like race car stuff.
So what was the average power comparison from 3500 to 5500?
you should be able to see that on the curves
Mini for me because my car is going to light, man trans or dsg, gears and dgaf about gas mileage😂
I have Efi first intake lång runner and I have Dart heads Alu roller hyd cam Twin Turbo 355cui..build this Engine 1996.Mayby coming tou The Street 2023 .Standing tou long in The garage..Corvette 74 custom build rear and from 80 The fenders back are bigger and have strong 12 bult axel, Toms 30 splines axels in The weels.31 stick axel in The center 12 bult. Is this excel or much stronger than the Orginal.Hope can handel mayby 800whp...Spell like hell sorry bay that.Dou The best I can...Make May day (Corvette).
My truck rarely goes above 3k power over 5k is worth nothing to me
I have a heavily loaded c3500 that always tows. It's got a stock 350 stock heads stock intake stock can stock exhaust no ecm no O2s no cats all stock. It has tons of power, 10-15 mpg, and she's fast with 4.56:1.
I think I want to run it on a stock tpi intake.
@@xmo552 I have a 83 c10 with a mk4 454 that I put in backed with a 700r. It’s literally at 1600 at 60mph
@@regal105
Nice. Which heads? Stock cam? What kind of MPG does she give you? This truck of mine does heavy dump runs or she's always hooked to a trailer. I need good MPG.
I've had big blocks but never one in a truck honestly.
Does stroke have any effect on runner length?
stroke does not change runner length if that is the question
@@richardholdener1727 reason I ask is that the development of the Vector's DOHC engine was stalled after a catastrophic backfire which destroyed the intake manifold. I was told that it was because the stroke was longer than the intake runner length. I find this doubtful. My uneducated guess would be cam timing issues.
Personally I blame squirrels
Squirrels. Why did it have yo be squirrels.
Its "Tuned"
its all the sasquatch girls fault 😁
and if we'd chucked a fully divided dual plane on there with it's somewhat short runners the results would have us saying What The Hell. EDIT I know, everybody considers dual planes to have long runners.....except those that have measured them....long compared to a short runner single plane only.
🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿
I'm 41 and inhereted my 88 gta trans am Pontiac firebird tpi and t5 9 bolt
305 moddeded I did everything 14 30 at 99mph smoking the street tires and now I have a 383 built forged guts aluminum heads cam and hsri and bbk 58 mm tb
I miss the torque but the high end power walking guys makes it amazing
I know my rpm limit Ali's 5500 but I need to change it 6000
I think my cam is maxed out at 5500
Black and gold ws6 4 paint jobs and a new floor all prof
Dada car brand new and then gave it to my mom she drove it to work daily 25 years then my dad died and she gave the car to me it's a std and it hurts her foot to drive it
So she she's me smoking driving it
1988 there were only 861 t5 305tpi custom made in the factory in 88
And it took over 3 months to get them orderd
All automatic 1100
And we live in Ontario Canada
So my auto shop teacher and was like to this day never saw one ever
It inspired me to work on gm cars alot
Sbc
We even did a clutch job for credits
I got the auto award in grade 12
I have it hanging in my wall
Does anybody make a runner longer than the stock unit? If so sign me up 😂😂😂😂😂
not longer than TPI
Great video