I need to show this to every proshop in my area. 4 different places and all I get is "you bowl wrong, I'been drilling balls for 123 years." Only *once* has a guy actually watched me throw down lane and drilled accordingly. He sold 4 balls in one month, each week it was a better option.
I can't even begin to describe how much I agree with your comment. My average was about a 210 prior to taking a few years away from bowling. I came back about 6 months ago and I've since had 4 different balls drilled for me. Purple Hammer, Pitch Black, Axiom Pearl, Ice (spare ball) and every single ball feels completely different on my hand and during my release. A couple of the balls thumbs were literally tearing the skin off the right side of my thumb near the knuckle to the point where raw skin would be showing and I'd have to either play through it and make the injury 100x worse, or leave in the middle of bowling. Then I'd have to allow a week or two in order for my thumb to heal. It's been about 5 months now since I first tore my thumb open while bowling and my thumb STILL hasn't been able to fully heal because I bowl in two leagues a week. Because of issues with fitment it's caused me to overthink my typical release and my average has dropped significantly since I returned to the sport. It's currently at a 174. I could see it dropping 10-20 pins since I was gone for awhile but 35-40 pins shy of what my average USED TO BE back with the old ball I used to throw. That one was comfortable. I've gone to 3 different Pro Shop guys and they've all told me how I got screwed in regards to my previous balls drilling and how they'll make it "SO MUCH BETTER" and yet here we are. Complaining with complete strangers on TH-cam!
@@Mista808 here's hoping you can find a driller that sets up the equipment for you (rather than telling you how to adjust for the equipment) the same as the guy I found. It was amazing to see just how passionate he was in wanting to make sure that he had everything dialed in to a T. By the end of it all, I ended up buying 6, and he "recycled" 2 - he was very strict about not selling a ball if it wasn't better than the last. Unfortunately, that alley has since closed (nothing to do with the bowling itself) and I'm not sure what ever happened to him.
@@Mista808 Modern drill equipment borrows heavily from the machining world: more of a milling machine than an old drill press. You don't have to have a digital readout, as long as X & Y axis have controls that can be zeroed by adjustable bezel. It's inexcusable to drill 4 balls of the same grip and get different feels. It can happen on modern stuff, but mainly where operators are trying to get in a hurry with dull drill bits - makes me cringe every time I see it: side loading early [trying to get a "bite"] causes deflection, and a wrong pitch often follows. I have shared some of your thumb woes, but maybe not as bad. I found a way out in observing no-thumb bowlers vs my own setup and... found my thumbhole caused the center of my palm to shift - that's where my pressure came from, and pitch changes never really did get rid of it. So I went to a "raised ring" setup after figuring out the difference needed to get back at a neutral/non-sideloaded grip. What I did [using my standard thumb drill] was hold the ball like always in setting up for a throw - marked the ball where the crease of my hand was. THEN, I cupped the ball like a no thumb throw and marked again. Using a prosect, I found the difference. For my hand, that turned out to be 12 degrees. Following that change I of course found the ring finger needed just a little more reverse pitch, which wrapped things up. What I do is... plot a layout in standard da/val fashion, then draw a kick line from the midline point that's centered by finger holes to draw the offset needed to locate the thumbhole for drilling. I now only use tape to manage release, and the business of tearing up my thumb just doesn't happen. Yes, thumb pitch will change doing this and that seems to be dictated by where the thumb meets the hand as relates to the middle finger - mine is just inside of being bang on with being offset the same as my index finger in a position suited to ball diameter.
Man do I agree. I been to 3 places since getting back into bowling. All of them had something bad to say about what the other did. 1 of them actually watched me bowl. Well 1 and a half. I just change to 2 handed since I been having issues with my thumb and went to the pro shop where I will be bowling league. A younger kid who's a 2 hander came out and watched me. I threw it like shit I couldn't stop bringing my hand around the ball instead of through it. The lanes were so dry you couldn't see my track but you could tell it was going over the fingers. They didn't bother to get my pap once I started throwing the ball right. I'm getting one of my 1 handed balls plugged and re-drilled how are you supposed to know how to drill it with so little info? Are we just guessing? Why is it so difficult to get the type of service I see on youtube in actual pro-shops? This reminds me I need to call them tomorrow and make sure they don't drill my ball until someone figures out what is actually going to work.
I'm a no thumb bowler for about 20 years I went from the straight power game to no thumb bowling and fell in love with the mean hook it produces and can use a ball with that layout
We miss you Mo! I think this was Mo’s initial way to adapt the dual angle layout system to no-thumb bowlers. Then he came up with a system that did a better job of ensuring that the layout would work. Now Storm has added a layout system that includes a ‘lightning’ step for no thumb bowlers, based off of VLS. There’s many different ways to drill a ball but I wonder how many PSOs still throw in 3 holes and put the pin in a spot that ‘seems like it’ll work’ …
Excellent video Mo! I’d love to see a quick video showing how to layout a no thumb ball from start to finish. I’m just learning how to drill my own balls at home but am struggling a little. Really just need to know the first steps layout the ball 😉
Mine is this...by accident. PSO thought I was a Full Roller based on house ball rolls & lack of proper assessment. Now I'm not full roller, and am told my ball was drilled upside down - counteracting the designed hook of the ball! 🤷♂️
he probably keeps his wrist more back and not forward or titled down to the ground when no thumb bowlers release. i have a high pitch and mine tracks the the left of my middle finger.
I'm a left handed two finger bowler. I believe my ball isn't drilled correctly because it has a very hard breakpoint which is essentially unusable. What would I tell my pro shop to have them smooth out the breakpoint for better control?
Aha! Ok, this is way late but "psa is in the thumbhole".... nope: no thumbhole. This is where having a determinator matters. So where is it on an undrilled ball? About 6 1/2" from the pin. I don't have the equipment [or the experience], so I'll risk a wild guess: 5 3/8" from the pin through the fingers on a symmetrical, depending on how deep fingers are drilled. Maybe next symm ball I have drilled I'll ask the pro to pause after fingers are done and spin it up and learn something, but its going to be a while: Taternomics is eating my lunch - may not get any new equipment in the coming year, cause between butter eggs and gas [and oddly my water bill]... I'm seeing 36% inflation over the last 2 1/2 years where I am.
I have a question. You said that the Center of Grip is between the finger holes for no thumb bowlers. When you draw the dual angle layout and reverse back your PAP to find the Center of Grip, do I just drill the finger holes there? The pin will appear much farther up if I move the finger holes down to the Center of Grip right? Just making sure this is correct.
No proshops around me drill this way. They just drill everything "label drills". Can you drill my equipment? I think my potential is being suppressed by lazy proshop owners.
@DASO MILITIA my pso took the time to watch me roll the ball and get my PAP but the rolling over the finger holes thing is a different story after a couple pitche changes he said I had a bad release and basically gave up on me.ive been bowling for almost two years rolling over the finger holes the whole time it doesn't stop me from a couple high scores but it is irritating could you point me towards your fix? I would greatly appreciate it (btw my pso is a know hall of famer was on tv alot dont wanna say his name)lol Im low tilt high rev high speed so any layout with pin close to fingers rolls over worse
My pro shops around me have no clue about any of this stuff. They just want to put holes in the ball. I'd do anything for you to drill my 2 handed equipment. Im totally lost and thinking of quiting the sport just because I can't get my equipment drilled properly.
I use one hand and no thumb and my oil tracks are right across my finger holes. I can't figure out how to drill it but I assume it would be very similar to the first bowler in the video
Usually with the two handed and no thumb bowlers I drill for bringing the pitch of the middle finger closer and taking the ring finger and putting more reverse/away will help move that track off the fingers. Mo has a video addressing this look in his videos you'll find it.
Hi Mo! This is great information! For years I've been thinking that I was going crazy, because when ever I look at my layout and use the Dual Angle measurements, I don't see the ball doing the motion that the Dual Angle is telling me that the ball should be doing ... This video has given me a Eureka moment! lol .... Most of this video talks about break point but, how does these layouts affect the ball's time in the skid phase? The Drilling Angle in the Dual Angle Layouts ... or do we as no-thumb bowlers can't control our skid phase?
Thank you for this video I definitely learn something new as a lefty thumbless bowler with a high rev rate and being aggressive at times I want to understand more of my future layouts I have a pitbull bark and a radical conspiracy on the way and I need to find a good design
if i have never had my own ball how would i find my pap with a house ball? wanting to pick up the storm trend 2 but i have no idea where my pap is, as a 2 handed bowler what would i tell my pro shop?
Laying out balls to your PAP in relation to the Pin to PAP, PAP to Mbias will need some experimentation for no thumb bowlers. Since most balls have different core shapes, they will roll / shape differently. I would experiment drilling your finger holes for the different layouts that Mo / Radical have provided. If not satisfied, plug them and move the pin around in relation to your new finger holes. At the least, try to drill the new finger holes close to the ones plugged so you can keep your plugged holes at a minimum. This should provide the ball reaction you want dependant of course on the lane condition and your delivery. Hope this sounds okay for most of us with no thumb holes. I would like to try this on the new Radical Results ball, ( Maybe only plug it one time for the drilling layout I really want ).
Anything within 2” above the line would be equivalent to a pin down layout. 2.5” would be pin at the fingers. 3” or more above the line is equivalent to pin up.
How high above the line from the ring finger to the PAP can you take the pin? In case 1, it was about 2 inches. Can I go up to 4 or 5? Could I just drill through my cg mark and adjust the pin to get the desired pin to PAP distance?
Thanks for caring so much about our questions. Masterpiece again! Plenty of answers, and better focus than adapting de dual angle (though it was working fairly well for me, with some modifications). About those finger pitches you mentioned: it's about getting that forward on the middle / reverse on the ring, or is there more to it? Still can't avoid tracking the middle finger. I'm wondering about the PSA of symmetricals... dramatic change if it's a short pin (PSA goes left and may even go a bit up above the fingers) or if the pin is left of the bridge, the PSA can go fairly right, far les than the 5" lower limit you mentioned for asyms. Should we just ignore where the PSA ends, not having an effect wherever the PSA ends compered with these two parameters?
Hi there! May I ask what kind of modifications did you implement with the dual angle system? I would say that you need a bigger drilling angle as there is no thumb hole dragging the PSA towards itself.
Hello Mo, I bowl with 2hands but also using my thumb. I only put my thumbs in only until my first knuckle or half of my thumb was in the whole. What is the best lay-out for my ball? Hope you can help me. Thank you
hey mo, y wouldnt u put the pin on the line or even below? u might need to with very some bowlers, or even 2 hand bowlers. i know this guy that has his pin 1/2 inch over dead straight next to his ring finger. it will be more controllable the more down u go for straighter lines.
So question? I bowl, but... I've was always given balls, and learned how to use them. And they are ball that... people messed up on. I bowl weirdly. I two hand bowl, no thumb, and middle finger with the top knuckle to rotate, high rpms, same left to right lane hook. My ball is A symmetrical. Where the hell do I drill it?
Have your pro shop measure your positive axis point on a ball drilled without a thumbhole and then have them make suggestions for you based on your stats.
I’m a one handed no thumb bowler. I’ve been getting my balls drilled left handed for years. And yes I’m a right handed. It has worked amazing for me. One sanctioned 809 and multiple 300s. Hightest average a 230. Has anyone else tried that?
I am also a right handed no-thumb bowler 211 average. What advantages have you discovered with a lefty layout? Is the pin above or below your middle finger?
Ruben white send me a DM on Instagram an I’ll send you a picture of how my ball is drilled. @drakogt1 For me I tracked over the finger and thumb holes on a right hand drilled ball. I picked up a buddies lefty ball just to try it’s cover stock an loved the reaction. I started experimenting with it an figured out with my inverted track I couldn’t throw a conventional pin down layout. Also the pin is above my middle finger. Sometimes as much as three inches above.
I'm looking for the same answer, more as a verification of what I've worked on and what makes sense. I believe you need the pitch to help you lean the ball to the outside of your body, which means the ball should track farther away from the finger holes because of the tilt. I was literally trying to force this tilt action last night in league and it works, but it's hard to do when you are fighting the actual lateral pitch angle that I currently have. It basically helps you tilt the ball without having to over supinate your wrist. I could be wrong, but I'm talking with my Pro Shop and waiting to hear back from them, too.
Full roller 2 hander? Full roller with thumb you put the cg in the center of the grip, with the pin 45 degrees down and to the left(for right handers), Asyms draw a line from the pin to the MB and use that line as the 45 degree through the center of the grip, pin still goes down to the opposite side of whichever hand.
@@James-un5bc that's the standard thought for sure but I find it doesnt work for me. I'm a two handed bowler with thumb that tracks as a full roll but my PAP is not in a location that is normal, it's way up above the finger holes, 6 inches or so up there. When the pin is placed to the left of the thumb as is normal for a full roller layout I get reverse track flare over the finger holes. I have started placing the pin just barely to the right of the thumb hole to get the flare lines to bowtie between all the holes. Asym is similar for me but I would love to see Mo's thoughts on the variations of a full roller layout for sure because I feel boxed in to one layout, not sure how to tweak it for shaping the breakpoint.
@@brianmounts I was in the same boat as you, i felt the only layout that worked was a full roller (but I reversed tracked as well) although I had a couple different layouts mainly full roller and pin above bridge in line with cg (and MB if it was asym.). So I took a look at my release and noticed I finished with my thumb pointing at 9 o'clock palm down (right handed). Looked up proper release which is thumb around 1 o'clock and palm about 45 degrees. I started tracking normally and could even see my flare rings! I even got a little more length in most of my equipment .
@@BC_J0MBI I don't have any good slow mo well focused video of my hand release but I do know what I have been doing I have been doing for 25 years. Not sure what your speed or rev rate is but both of mine are pretty high up there. It's hard to change a lot of things at the same time so I have no intention of altering my release anytime soon. For me altering my layout, finger pitches, and thumb hole alignment should help me have better breakpoint consistency considering the ball isn't tracking on the fingers and it should help me with accuracy and Direction because I'm more evenly pushing the ball into a roll with two fingers rather than just one. In any event I imagine there has got to be a second or third good layout for my release and Pap location I just got to find it :-) in the mean time I am thankful that I have at least found a layout that works for me now and will embrace the fact that I don't have to decide between 2 or 3 pin placements for every ball I deill, I just will just drill up the only one that I know that works perfect for me. :-)
@@brianmounts my average speed is between 17.2 and 17.6. Never really calculated my rev rate but people tell me it's high so I'm guessing between 500 and 550 or higher who knows
@@miguelangelseoane6941 Do not put it below it. Physics get real wacky with roll at that point. You're essentially getting into the territory of full rollers for opposite handers. On the line is just closest to the line where he said, "smoother breakpoint as you get closer to it." Better to err on the side of being above the line. Christopher, theres not really a maximum practical distance. As long as you keep the pin between 4 and 5.5-6 from the PAP thats what matters, the pin to pap to VAL angle you mostly always you want to keep between 20 and 70 degrees. Longer pin to pap, smoother more forward rolling hook. Shorter pin to pap(3 3/8 - 4, not the short pin layouts he was talking about) more sideways motion. Bigger VAL angle smoother slower arcing hook. Lesser VAL angle, shorter quick snappy breakpoint.
@@James-un5bc So you would need to stay on the finger hole side of the VAL plus a little? Obviously the max distance will vary with Pin to pad distance.
@@James-un5bc After some research, found that the main reason why Mo avoids getting close to the line, is to prevent the ball from rolling on the holes. Your explanation might be as much correct as well, and after trying the short PIN setups, those will give as much roll as ever needed, in a desirable stable position, no need to go to the down/below fingers setting. Awesome, anyone wanting to try a PIN below fingers, try the short one first. Couldn't use an asymmetrical ball before, now it's my favourite with that setting.
I've recently switched to 2 handed and tried thumb in and thumb out. I hate grips so don't need them. Never even occurred to me to have a ball drilled without the thumb hole much less change my old tweener layout. Is there anything wrong with having a thumb hole aside maybe needing it every now and then?
@@christopherascherl2411 I think you meant to say with the thumb hole. With the rule change any hole drilled must be occupied by a finger or else the ball is illegal. So if you have a thumb hole but don’t use it technically they consider that a balance hole and the ball is illegal.
@@firnameweren5311 No, I believe what I said is correct. Brian said he tried w/ and w/o his thumb and never specified which way he was going to use in the future. The ball is still USBC legal if he keeps his thumb in the ball.
@@christopherascherl2411 that’s true he isn’t specific but to have a legal ball he has to decide because he can’t just not use his thumb if it is drilled in the ball now. Assuming he is bowling in USBC sanctioned leagues / tournaments.
If I am getting a ball drilled right now, can already I have it comply with the new rules (3 oz side to side & no balance hole), or do I have to continue to use the 1 oz + balance hole rule until August 1, 2020 and then get it redrilled at that time?
You can use de 3 oz right now. If you drill a balance hole, you will be restricted to 1 oz and it will have to get plugged after August 1, 2020. If it's asymmetrical, go for the 3 oz right away. If not, you may get something extra from with that balance whole, until having to plug.
@@RadicalBowling Thank you for the response. Is there a video anywhere that explains how to weigh up a ball. i recently started dabbling in drilling and I want to make sure everything I am drilling is legal. Only thing I have found has been on the Innovative Products website and it isn't as clearly defined as I would like. Thanks again!
We suggest reaching out to Mo about attending Pro Shop training in conjunction with Innovative. They have classes ever so often. His email is mopeymagic@gmail.com
Pitch changes for no thumb bowlers has to be the next video. I've talked with my pso and have tried different layouts and getting out of the ball Earlier without much success I still track over middle finger and If playing straight will track between fingers and over thumb hole if drilled
I been to 3 places since getting back into bowling. All of them had something bad to say about what the other did. 1 of them actually watched me bowl. Well 1 and a half. I just change to 2 handed since I been having issues with my thumb and went to the pro shop where I will be bowling league. A younger kid who's a 2 hander came out and watched me. I threw it like shit I couldn't stop bringing my hand around the ball instead of through it. The lanes were so dry you couldn't see my track but you could tell it was going over the fingers. They didn't bother to get my pap once I started throwing the ball right. I'm getting one of my 1 handed balls plugged and re-drilled how are you supposed to know how to drill it with so little info? Are we just guessing? Why is it so difficult to get the type of service I see on youtube in actual pro-shops? This reminds me I need to call them tomorrow and make sure they don't drill my ball until someone figures out what is actually going to work.
I just watched this video because I am a no thumb bowler. I am having trouble crossing my finger holes. My pro shop pointed it out to me but said "it's called bowling without your thumb". That was all he told me. Where are you based out of and how can I start over and have my bowling balls drilled properly for me. The guys around here are no help. I would like them drilled right. Any advice on what to do?
to bad bowling has turned into the way a ball is drilled. the game needs talent yes but having the ball do most of the work is really not showing who is the best talent that day .
I need to show this to every proshop in my area. 4 different places and all I get is "you bowl wrong, I'been drilling balls for 123 years."
Only *once* has a guy actually watched me throw down lane and drilled accordingly. He sold 4 balls in one month, each week it was a better option.
I can't even begin to describe how much I agree with your comment. My average was about a 210 prior to taking a few years away from bowling.
I came back about 6 months ago and I've since had 4 different balls drilled for me. Purple Hammer, Pitch Black, Axiom Pearl, Ice (spare ball) and
every single ball feels completely different on my hand and during my release. A couple of the balls thumbs were literally tearing the skin off the
right side of my thumb near the knuckle to the point where raw skin would be showing and I'd have to either play through it and make the injury
100x worse, or leave in the middle of bowling. Then I'd have to allow a week or two in order for my thumb to heal. It's been about 5 months now
since I first tore my thumb open while bowling and my thumb STILL hasn't been able to fully heal because I bowl in two leagues a week.
Because of issues with fitment it's caused me to overthink my typical release and my average has dropped significantly since I returned to the sport.
It's currently at a 174. I could see it dropping 10-20 pins since I was gone for awhile but 35-40 pins shy of what my average USED TO BE back with
the old ball I used to throw. That one was comfortable. I've gone to 3 different Pro Shop guys and they've all told me how I got screwed in regards
to my previous balls drilling and how they'll make it "SO MUCH BETTER" and yet here we are. Complaining with complete strangers on TH-cam!
@@Mista808 here's hoping you can find a driller that sets up the equipment for you (rather than telling you how to adjust for the equipment) the same as the guy I found.
It was amazing to see just how passionate he was in wanting to make sure that he had everything dialed in to a T.
By the end of it all, I ended up buying 6, and he "recycled" 2 - he was very strict about not selling a ball if it wasn't better than the last.
Unfortunately, that alley has since closed (nothing to do with the bowling itself) and I'm not sure what ever happened to him.
@@Mista808 Modern drill equipment borrows heavily from the machining world: more of a milling machine than an old drill press. You don't have to have a digital readout, as long as X & Y axis have controls that can be zeroed by adjustable bezel. It's inexcusable to drill 4 balls of the same grip and get different feels. It can happen on modern stuff, but mainly where operators are trying to get in a hurry with dull drill bits - makes me cringe every time I see it: side loading early [trying to get a "bite"] causes deflection, and a wrong pitch often follows.
I have shared some of your thumb woes, but maybe not as bad. I found a way out in observing no-thumb bowlers vs my own setup and... found my thumbhole caused the center of my palm to shift - that's where my pressure came from, and pitch changes never really did get rid of it. So I went to a "raised ring" setup after figuring out the difference needed to get back at a neutral/non-sideloaded grip. What I did [using my standard thumb drill] was hold the ball like always in setting up for a throw - marked the ball where the crease of my hand was. THEN, I cupped the ball like a no thumb throw and marked again. Using a prosect, I found the difference. For my hand, that turned out to be 12 degrees. Following that change I of course found the ring finger needed just a little more reverse pitch, which wrapped things up. What I do is... plot a layout in standard da/val fashion, then draw a kick line from the midline point that's centered by finger holes to draw the offset needed to locate the thumbhole for drilling. I now only use tape to manage release, and the business of tearing up my thumb just doesn't happen. Yes, thumb pitch will change doing this and that seems to be dictated by where the thumb meets the hand as relates to the middle finger - mine is just inside of being bang on with being offset the same as my index finger in a position suited to ball diameter.
This is exactly what happened to me.
Man do I agree. I been to 3 places since getting back into bowling. All of them had something bad to say about what the other did. 1 of them actually watched me bowl. Well 1 and a half. I just change to 2 handed since I been having issues with my thumb and went to the pro shop where I will be bowling league. A younger kid who's a 2 hander came out and watched me. I threw it like shit I couldn't stop bringing my hand around the ball instead of through it. The lanes were so dry you couldn't see my track but you could tell it was going over the fingers. They didn't bother to get my pap once I started throwing the ball right. I'm getting one of my 1 handed balls plugged and re-drilled how are you supposed to know how to drill it with so little info? Are we just guessing? Why is it so difficult to get the type of service I see on youtube in actual pro-shops? This reminds me I need to call them tomorrow and make sure they don't drill my ball until someone figures out what is actually going to work.
I'm a no thumb bowler for about 20 years I went from the straight power game to no thumb bowling and fell in love with the mean hook it produces and can use a ball with that layout
We miss you Mo!
I think this was Mo’s initial way to adapt the dual angle layout system to no-thumb bowlers. Then he came up with a system that did a better job of ensuring that the layout would work. Now Storm has added a layout system that includes a ‘lightning’ step for no thumb bowlers, based off of VLS. There’s many different ways to drill a ball but I wonder how many PSOs still throw in 3 holes and put the pin in a spot that ‘seems like it’ll work’ …
Thank you so much for the information Mo. I never had to deal with many no thumbers but they are becoming more common.
Excellent video Mo! I’d love to see a quick video showing how to layout a no thumb ball from start to finish. I’m just learning how to drill my own balls at home but am struggling a little. Really just need to know the first steps layout the ball 😉
Thank you for taking the time to help with layouts for us two handers.
Best three balls for two finger bowlers what’s your suggestions
Thank you for this video, very informative and I will this knowledge on my next ball.
I bowled at Royal Scot Lanes years and years ago. Nice to hear that Dave Spohn is still at the pro shop there
Hi Mo good to see your video. Stay safe my friend.
Got a Squatch last weekend, and scored by best total in league to date. You should put the Yeti core in everything. Love the carry.
What about pin down no thumb bowlers. How would that layout look like
Chris Williams what does pin down mean?
Mine is this...by accident. PSO thought I was a Full Roller based on house ball rolls & lack of proper assessment. Now I'm not full roller, and am told my ball was drilled upside down - counteracting the designed hook of the ball! 🤷♂️
THANKS MO! GREAT INFO.
Thank you Mo! This is nice info.
What did you have to change the pitches to get him to stop rolling over the middle finger?
@radicalbowling
I'd also like to hear this. How do finger pitches affect where the ball tracks?
he probably keeps his wrist more back and not forward or titled down to the ground when no thumb bowlers release. i have a high pitch and mine tracks the the left of my middle finger.
This is awesome MO! Can you tell me what pitch you used?
I see hi-lift fingers inserts -curious what MO thinks of them - as most if not all pros don't use them.
I just got a new ball and my pro shop never ask me anything about layouts or anything he just measure it out and drill it now what do I do
I'm a left handed two finger bowler. I believe my ball isn't drilled correctly because it has a very hard breakpoint which is essentially unusable. What would I tell my pro shop to have them smooth out the breakpoint for better control?
Thanks for this great information Mo....
Is the Val for Scott's Squatch set at 45def?
Please show us how those symms spin on the Determinator, I've seen PSAs in different locations for two handers than what you state here.
Aha! Ok, this is way late but "psa is in the thumbhole".... nope: no thumbhole. This is where having a determinator matters. So where is it on an undrilled ball? About 6 1/2" from the pin. I don't have the equipment [or the experience], so I'll risk a wild guess: 5 3/8" from the pin through the fingers on a symmetrical, depending on how deep fingers are drilled.
Maybe next symm ball I have drilled I'll ask the pro to pause after fingers are done and spin it up and learn something, but its going to be a while: Taternomics is eating my lunch - may not get any new equipment in the coming year, cause between butter eggs and gas [and oddly my water bill]... I'm seeing 36% inflation over the last 2 1/2 years where I am.
I have a question. You said that the Center of Grip is between the finger holes for no thumb bowlers. When you draw the dual angle layout and reverse back your PAP to find the Center of Grip, do I just drill the finger holes there? The pin will appear much farther up if I move the finger holes down to the Center of Grip right? Just making sure this is correct.
This is correct.
No proshops around me drill this way. They just drill everything "label drills". Can you drill my equipment? I think my potential is being suppressed by lazy proshop owners.
What is label drill?
A generic drilling, a glorified house-ball drilling basically
@DASO MILITIA my pso took the time to watch me roll the ball and get my PAP but the rolling over the finger holes thing is a different story after a couple pitche changes he said I had a bad release and basically gave up on me.ive been bowling for almost two years rolling over the finger holes the whole time it doesn't stop me from a couple high scores but it is irritating could you point me towards your fix? I would greatly appreciate it (btw my pso is a know hall of famer was on tv alot dont wanna say his name)lol
Im low tilt high rev high speed so any layout with pin close to fingers rolls over worse
@DASO MILITIA I’m dealing with this now, can you send me those pics?
My pro shops around me have no clue about any of this stuff. They just want to put holes in the ball. I'd do anything for you to drill my 2 handed equipment. Im totally lost and thinking of quiting the sport just because I can't get my equipment drilled properly.
Worth spending the extra money & driving some miles for a Certified Coach to set you up right? That's what I had to do.
I’m dealing with This too , it’s frustrating af , it really is
I use one hand and no thumb and my oil tracks are right across my finger holes. I can't figure out how to drill it but I assume it would be very similar to the first bowler in the video
Usually with the two handed and no thumb bowlers I drill for bringing the pitch of the middle finger closer and taking the ring finger and putting more reverse/away will help move that track off the fingers. Mo has a video addressing this look in his videos you'll find it.
Thank you! This will help me out a ton.
Hi mo. Can u explain how do you map a new ball using this system? Do we do the pin to pap first or pin to psa first?
Yes can you show a video of laying out an asymmetrical ball. Starting with no lines on it and how you would do it. Thanks a ton
I'm a no thumb bowler and my pin is parallel to my 2 finger wholes on the right . Basically 1 inch right of my ring finger. Is this normal?
Difference for us oddball no thumb, ONE-HANDERs?? I may lack the speed of 2 handers, but am rev. dominant.
Hi Mo! This is great information! For years I've been thinking that I was going crazy, because when ever I look at my layout and use the Dual Angle measurements, I don't see the ball doing the motion that the Dual Angle is telling me that the ball should be doing ... This video has given me a Eureka moment! lol .... Most of this video talks about break point but, how does these layouts affect the ball's time in the skid phase? The Drilling Angle in the Dual Angle Layouts ... or do we as no-thumb bowlers can't control our skid phase?
Was this guy in the show called " today's special "?
Thank you for this video I definitely learn something new as a lefty thumbless bowler with a high rev rate and being aggressive at times I want to understand more of my future layouts I have a pitbull bark and a radical conspiracy on the way and I need to find a good design
if i have never had my own ball how would i find my pap with a house ball? wanting to pick up the storm trend 2 but i have no idea where my pap is, as a 2 handed bowler what would i tell my pro shop?
Thanks Mo!! This important to me.
I have started to try out 3 finger bowling, however it brings me a lot of pain even though it is much more predictable and stable
same
Laying out balls to your PAP in relation to the Pin to PAP, PAP to Mbias will need some experimentation for no thumb bowlers.
Since most balls have different core shapes, they will roll / shape differently. I would experiment drilling your finger holes for the different layouts that Mo / Radical have provided. If not satisfied, plug them and move the pin around in relation to your new finger holes. At the least, try to drill the new finger holes close to the ones plugged so you can keep your plugged holes at a minimum. This should provide the ball reaction you want dependant of course on the lane condition and your delivery. Hope this sounds okay for most of us with no thumb holes. I would like to try this on the new Radical Results ball, ( Maybe only plug it one time for the drilling layout I really want ).
what are the layout numbers for the first 2 balls?
i have got used ebonite cyclone ball. how can i drill 2 hand? help me please
What would be the equivalent of a pin down for no thumb bowlers?
Anything within 2” above the line would be equivalent to a pin down layout. 2.5” would be pin at the fingers. 3” or more above the line is equivalent to pin up.
Thought a ball had to have three hole to be considered drilled legally or did USBC change the rules again
Any chance of showing a lay out on an asymmetrical ball step by step starting with no lines on it?
I have pap 5¼ x ¼ UP ,Where is difference between up and down?
Hang out with Dave Sphoon like it first place I met u as a kid in your typhoon
How high above the line from the ring finger to the PAP can you take the pin? In case 1, it was about 2 inches. Can I go up to 4 or 5? Could I just drill through my cg mark and adjust the pin to get the desired pin to PAP distance?
Thanks for caring so much about our questions. Masterpiece again! Plenty of answers, and better focus than adapting de dual angle (though it was working fairly well for me, with some modifications).
About those finger pitches you mentioned: it's about getting that forward on the middle / reverse on the ring, or is there more to it? Still can't avoid tracking the middle finger.
I'm wondering about the PSA of symmetricals... dramatic change if it's a short pin (PSA goes left and may even go a bit up above the fingers) or if the pin is left of the bridge, the PSA can go fairly right, far les than the 5" lower limit you mentioned for asyms. Should we just ignore where the PSA ends, not having an effect wherever the PSA ends compered with these two parameters?
Hi there! May I ask what kind of modifications did you implement with the dual angle system? I would say that you need a bigger drilling angle as there is no thumb hole dragging the PSA towards itself.
Hello Mo, I bowl with 2hands but also using my thumb. I only put my thumbs in only until my first knuckle or half of my thumb was in the whole. What is the best lay-out for my ball? Hope you can help me. Thank you
if you are two handed but with half thumb. Use Dual angle layouts or VLS for that.
Can you layout a thumbless ball using the dual angle system?
hey mo, y wouldnt u put the pin on the line or even below? u might need to with very some bowlers, or even 2 hand bowlers. i know this guy that has his pin 1/2 inch over dead straight next to his ring finger. it will be more controllable the more down u go for straighter lines.
So question? I bowl, but... I've was always given balls, and learned how to use them. And they are ball that... people messed up on.
I bowl weirdly. I two hand bowl, no thumb, and middle finger with the top knuckle to rotate, high rpms, same left to right lane hook. My ball is A symmetrical. Where the hell do I drill it?
Have your pro shop measure your positive axis point on a ball drilled without a thumbhole and then have them make suggestions for you based on your stats.
What kind of ball are these two
I’m a one handed no thumb bowler. I’ve been getting my balls drilled left handed for years. And yes I’m a right handed. It has worked amazing for me. One sanctioned 809 and multiple 300s. Hightest average a 230.
Has anyone else tried that?
Im a lefy one handed thumbles player, i have tried right handed drilled balls w very little success
I am also a right handed no-thumb bowler 211 average. What advantages have you discovered with a lefty layout? Is the pin above or below your middle finger?
Ruben white send me a DM on Instagram an I’ll send you a picture of how my ball is drilled. @drakogt1
For me I tracked over the finger and thumb holes on a right hand drilled ball. I picked up a buddies lefty ball just to try it’s cover stock an loved the reaction. I started experimenting with it an figured out with my inverted track I couldn’t throw a conventional pin down layout. Also the pin is above my middle finger. Sometimes as much as three inches above.
Ruben White sorry meant to tag you.
For The Love Of Cars I dm’d you on ig
I bowl two handed and roll over the middle finger. What pitch change should I make? More left/right or more reverse/forward?
I'm looking for the same answer, more as a verification of what I've worked on and what makes sense. I believe you need the pitch to help you lean the ball to the outside of your body, which means the ball should track farther away from the finger holes because of the tilt. I was literally trying to force this tilt action last night in league and it works, but it's hard to do when you are fighting the actual lateral pitch angle that I currently have. It basically helps you tilt the ball without having to over supinate your wrist. I could be wrong, but I'm talking with my Pro Shop and waiting to hear back from them, too.
Roll the lateral pitches to the left and go 1/8 forward pitch MF and 1/4 reverse in ring
With that asym layout I thought the rule was to put the check in the ring finger.?
Need to do one on full roller layouts please. Tried emailing too.
Full roller 2 hander?
Full roller with thumb you put the cg in the center of the grip, with the pin 45 degrees down and to the left(for right handers), Asyms draw a line from the pin to the MB and use that line as the 45 degree through the center of the grip, pin still goes down to the opposite side of whichever hand.
@@James-un5bc that's the standard thought for sure but I find it doesnt work for me. I'm a two handed bowler with thumb that tracks as a full roll but my PAP is not in a location that is normal, it's way up above the finger holes, 6 inches or so up there. When the pin is placed to the left of the thumb as is normal for a full roller layout I get reverse track flare over the finger holes. I have started placing the pin just barely to the right of the thumb hole to get the flare lines to bowtie between all the holes. Asym is similar for me but I would love to see Mo's thoughts on the variations of a full roller layout for sure because I feel boxed in to one layout, not sure how to tweak it for shaping the breakpoint.
@@brianmounts I was in the same boat as you, i felt the only layout that worked was a full roller (but I reversed tracked as well) although I had a couple different layouts mainly full roller and pin above bridge in line with cg (and MB if it was asym.).
So I took a look at my release and noticed I finished with my thumb pointing at 9 o'clock palm down (right handed). Looked up proper release which is thumb around 1 o'clock and palm about 45 degrees. I started tracking normally and could even see my flare rings! I even got a little more length in most of my equipment .
@@BC_J0MBI I don't have any good slow mo well focused video of my hand release but I do know what I have been doing I have been doing for 25 years. Not sure what your speed or rev rate is but both of mine are pretty high up there. It's hard to change a lot of things at the same time so I have no intention of altering my release anytime soon. For me altering my layout, finger pitches, and thumb hole alignment should help me have better breakpoint consistency considering the ball isn't tracking on the fingers and it should help me with accuracy and Direction because I'm more evenly pushing the ball into a roll with two fingers rather than just one. In any event I imagine there has got to be a second or third good layout for my release and Pap location I just got to find it :-) in the mean time I am thankful that I have at least found a layout that works for me now and will embrace the fact that I don't have to decide between 2 or 3 pin placements for every ball I deill, I just will just drill up the only one that I know that works perfect for me. :-)
@@brianmounts my average speed is between 17.2 and 17.6. Never really calculated my rev rate but people tell me it's high so I'm guessing between 500 and 550 or higher who knows
What is the maximum practical distance of the pin to the line between the ring finger PAP?
And what happens if we get on the line or below it?
@@miguelangelseoane6941 Do not put it below it. Physics get real wacky with roll at that point. You're essentially getting into the territory of full rollers for opposite handers. On the line is just closest to the line where he said, "smoother breakpoint as you get closer to it." Better to err on the side of being above the line.
Christopher, theres not really a maximum practical distance. As long as you keep the pin between 4 and 5.5-6 from the PAP thats what matters, the pin to pap to VAL angle you mostly always you want to keep between 20 and 70 degrees. Longer pin to pap, smoother more forward rolling hook. Shorter pin to pap(3 3/8 - 4, not the short pin layouts he was talking about) more sideways motion. Bigger VAL angle smoother slower arcing hook. Lesser VAL angle, shorter quick snappy breakpoint.
@@James-un5bc So you would need to stay on the finger hole side of the VAL plus a little? Obviously the max distance will vary with Pin to pad distance.
@@James-un5bc After some research, found that the main reason why Mo avoids getting close to the line, is to prevent the ball from rolling on the holes.
Your explanation might be as much correct as well, and after trying the short PIN setups, those will give as much roll as ever needed, in a desirable stable position, no need to go to the down/below fingers setting.
Awesome, anyone wanting to try a PIN below fingers, try the short one first. Couldn't use an asymmetrical ball before, now it's my favourite with that setting.
Does your pap change when throwing a ball with no thumb drilled vs a ball with a thumb hole drilled?
No, PAP is determined only by how you throw the ball. It's the axis along which the ball is spinning when you release it.
No way, I live just a couple miles from Royal Scot. Neat.
Awesome
I've recently switched to 2 handed and tried thumb in and thumb out. I hate grips so don't need them. Never even occurred to me to have a ball drilled without the thumb hole much less change my old tweener layout. Is there anything wrong with having a thumb hole aside maybe needing it every now and then?
The ball won't be USBC legal to throw without the thumb in after August 1st, 2020.
@@christopherascherl2411 I think you meant to say with the thumb hole. With the rule change any hole drilled must be occupied by a finger or else the ball is illegal. So if you have a thumb hole but don’t use it technically they consider that a balance hole and the ball is illegal.
@@firnameweren5311 No, I believe what I said is correct. Brian said he tried w/ and w/o his thumb and never specified which way he was going to use in the future. The ball is still USBC legal if he keeps his thumb in the ball.
@@christopherascherl2411 that’s true he isn’t specific but to have a legal ball he has to decide because he can’t just not use his thumb if it is drilled in the ball now. Assuming he is bowling in USBC sanctioned leagues / tournaments.
@@firnameweren5311 unless it's a "House Ball" correct? Only asking because it was brought up at a league I sub in
Is that why finger grip inserts are sometimes angled to the side instead of being centered so it doesn't roll over the finger holes?
No wonder why all my balls were drilled pin up! Great video :)
If I am getting a ball drilled right now, can already I have it comply with the new rules (3 oz side to side & no balance hole), or do I have to continue to use the 1 oz + balance hole rule until August 1, 2020 and then get it redrilled at that time?
You can use de 3 oz right now. If you drill a balance hole, you will be restricted to 1 oz and it will have to get plugged after August 1, 2020. If it's asymmetrical, go for the 3 oz right away. If not, you may get something extra from with that balance whole, until having to plug.
They are allowing the 3oz to be drilled now so that people can get their equipment in order before the rule goes into effect.
Is that conspiracy still weight legal with the CG that far down and right?
Yes. It had very low top to begin with.
@@RadicalBowling Thank you for the response. Is there a video anywhere that explains how to weigh up a ball. i recently started dabbling in drilling and I want to make sure everything I am drilling is legal. Only thing I have found has been on the Innovative Products website and it isn't as clearly defined as I would like. Thanks again!
We suggest reaching out to Mo about attending Pro Shop training in conjunction with Innovative. They have classes ever so often. His email is mopeymagic@gmail.com
Pitch changes for no thumb bowlers has to be the next video. I've talked with my pso and have tried different layouts and getting out of the ball Earlier without much success I still track over middle finger and If playing straight will track between fingers and over thumb hole if drilled
RIP MO
4 years ago Mo said "Layouts are critical in the modern game"
People are still saying surface/cover is 80-90% of performance.
Is this good for a full roller as well?
No
@@ethandoyle8812 ok, thank you
I been to 3 places since getting back into bowling. All of them had something bad to say about what the other did. 1 of them actually watched me bowl. Well 1 and a half. I just change to 2 handed since I been having issues with my thumb and went to the pro shop where I will be bowling league. A younger kid who's a 2 hander came out and watched me. I threw it like shit I couldn't stop bringing my hand around the ball instead of through it. The lanes were so dry you couldn't see my track but you could tell it was going over the fingers. They didn't bother to get my pap once I started throwing the ball right. I'm getting one of my 1 handed balls plugged and re-drilled how are you supposed to know how to drill it with so little info? Are we just guessing? Why is it so difficult to get the type of service I see on youtube in actual pro-shops? This reminds me I need to call them tomorrow and make sure they don't drill my ball until someone figures out what is actually going to work.
U don’t need to drill the ball at all . Just roll it down wit no holes
@@Emolga6274 LOL Genius!
How bout Belmo gettin' a Radical Ball
I just watched this video because I am a no thumb bowler. I am having trouble crossing my finger holes. My pro shop pointed it out to me but said "it's called bowling without your thumb". That was all he told me. Where are you based out of and how can I start over and have my bowling balls drilled properly for me. The guys around here are no help. I would like them drilled right. Any advice on what to do?
Are you in a league?
Are you in a league? Only asking because I ran into an issue with some bowlers because I'm a no thumb bowler.
Go Alex
Hi joey
I am a 2 hander my pin is in the by the bridge
Rip 🙏
aww wtf i was having a great time here.
Hi, Mo.
I knew Einstein was still around
Could you use terms a normal person could understand?
to bad bowling has turned into the way a ball is drilled. the game needs talent yes
but having the ball do most of the work is really not showing who is the best talent that
day .
That comspiracy is a illegal ball. I believe