Just when I thought I was getting bored with church history and needed to move on I find this discussion and get sucked back in. Great podcast guys!!!! Thanks
Mary Smithies was a 20 year old British convert when she married the 56 year old Lion of God, Heber C Kimball and became his 43 “wife”; they had 6 children. Of course this is the same man who cheerfully gave his 14 year old daughter to Joseph Smith and is noted for saying the missionaries in England were “picking out the prettiest women for themselves…and bringing the ugly ones for us.” What. A. Guy. He’s hailed as a “man of faith and integrity” by the BYU Religious Studies Center.
It is amazing how as a child I was indoctrinated to revere certain men (e.g. Joseph Smith Jr., Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, etc.), and how now as an adult I am disgusted by these lunatics.
43 🤦🏻♂ ( kimball with 5+so's ) no that's sinful as jeffs's-warren is as coveting wealth for $$ ( so monotonous or single can commit the same sin, based on golden caff$$$ principally ) is a kings-sin ( other sin's are mentioned, but not as much directly polygamy=fine/higher-law but does list rules for successful marriage in it/polly as well as monogamous-marriage lifestyle's ) mention directly under bible im fine and willing to back bi's ( male-gayness sexual activity isn't backed in my understanding of church but, male gay marriage already happened technically or at least under to polly-cube circumstances, lesbian sexual activity is fine but historically was taboo and wasn't super-open but so was sex as a topic in general, surprised me as a teenager in the 2000's looking at 1880's SLC Utah, novoo IL ) and polly's in general but one must know there limits for daily activity's and my understanding/research leads me to 1 to 9 is the max and that's with out children ( maximum is around 5~ for being a decent person/parents ) being involved so really it's max 4 or 5 wife's/SO's, ps im a pollyoumory 😉 ( ps not polly because of lds if anything it's the opposite and moral/sexuality-orientated/atheist beliefs/so's ) and raised SLC-LDS aka not warren's-group but still see there choice/church ( yes we disagree with some of there doctrine like black's and priesthood and dating ect but so is that different with UMC's/other-churches as well ) on average valid as a faith based but leadership like warren is deserving jail time for predatory-crime's ect not the marriage-licenses as that law+enforcement is junk
Came for the "soaking" after that great New York Post article appeared on October 7, 2021. Albert Carrington's excommunication begins at about 1:01.00.
I knew George and Kitty and my daughter went to school with their daughter. Kitty was absolutely lovely. we came to be neighbours because I knew them. I saw the lack of support and heard negativity on a local level, for both, before 1989. basically racism and Mormonist narrow view. I'm glad to hear Kitty had such support and well thought of later. all so sad. lovely family. George had spoken up for his people and tried to get practical supports for them but there was a lot of pushback from his colleagues against his efforts, many always treating him as an outsider , as a token lamanite. I don't fully accept his guilt, though I recognise the possibility, but wonder if his confession came from his depressed state, giving in because he just wanted the trial to be over. our experience of them all was only good. r.i.p. Kitty and George
So interesting, guys! Nice research that you’ve done about these things! With these stories, you realize the problems with organized religion and how it can ruin people’s lives. Thanks for exposing this!😃😃😃
Brigham Young stiffed my cousins in winter Quarters for educating his children. He reminds me of trump like that; stiffing the little guy Kaysville is where they eventually escaped from. That’s huge since our family founded Kaysville. They were a little crazy there during the 1850’s
Helmuth Hübener 1:43 Richard Lyman 8:30 George P. Lee 24:45 Joseph F. Smith II, the patriarch 33:40 George D. Watt 47:40 James C. Brewster 54:21 Albert Carrington 1:00:19
That last story is such an example of the fact that people can believe anything if they want it to be true badly enough. He wanted to believe he wasn’t committing adultery so much that he figured out how to make it his personal reality. I think Joseph Smith did this as well with his polygamy (AKA abuse). It also is a great example that the power of discernment with the brethren is a total myth. If they had the slightest discernment the man never would have been called as an apostle.
Heber C Kimball had 43 “wives” and 65 children spread all over the west; apparently made little or no attempt to support them. Is that not a sin? Yet he was god’s anointed. 🤷♀️ Some poor guy born a little too late to sexually indulge himself in quicky “marriages” is excommunicated as a SINNER.
They were not his children and they were not married in the sense one would be on earth but married like baptism for the dead. They were not sleeping around.
@@stacy6994 I wonder why he let all those wives AND CHILDREN use his last name? If those women were actually married and having children with other men, they’d use their husbands’ last names. So there’s that.
What was the most interesting part you read in the book Morrone and the swastika? I have lived in Germany at that time and I know some of the in the individuals, that were pictured in the book. Bad bad bad.
Yep, just like Joseph wrote D&C 28 to tell Hiram Page to stop getting revelations through his seer stone. And just like Elder Renlund told LDS women to stop seeking revelation about Heavenly Mother.
The gospel is true, the people aren’t. Gotta have a testimony for yourself…not dependent on imperfect people. No one…from convert to prophet…is infallible. Don’t lose your testimony over a leader who is no more perfect than yourself. We are all tempted.
Mormon Discussion, you included photographs of each person whose excommunication story you covered. One photo you included did not have a story associated with it in your podcast, and that was Elder Robert D. Hales. Why was Elder Hales photo included?
Never mind. I believe I mistook a photo of Eldred G. Smith for Robert D. Hales. Of course, Eldred G. Smith was never excommunicated, but he was mentioned quite a bit in this episode. I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you for showing the human side of each of these individuals. There were not just sinners, but were living, breathing human beings and had thoughts. I don't always agree with those thoughts (Albert Carrington), but I appreciate knowing them. The details of Richard Lyman's discovery and excommunication should be widely known so that these tactics are never employed again. J.R. Clark, J.F. Smith, and H.B. Lee all had a terribly dark side. Everyone has a dark side. Most of us deal with / overcome the dark side as a natural process of maturing. These Brethren did not, and their sad example should forever stand as a warning to each one of us. Thank you.
In the case of apostle Richard Lyman is simply outrageous. Unfair is an understatement the better word is outrageous! Clearly in Lyman case it was an abuse of discretion. Hopefully, he was reinstated at some time. The truth is his wife is equally at fault. And quite frankly, on a higher level, I believe he lived a higher law who being rejected by his wife supported a second wife. He should of kept his Priesthood and apostleship and allowed to move to Mexico and serve south of the border. Additional, church action should have been taken against the brethren for a breach of the law by stalking Lyman and destruction of property and home invasion
Carrington's story is hilarious. He was off his rocker, but in all fairness he was just following in the footsteps of Joseph Smith. I'm surprised the JST doesn't change the story where God killed the guy who pulled out.
What is more believable re: Lyman? Competitive Sr Leaders destroying another for personal gain OR leadership that usually looks the other way, sweeps under carpet & suddenly decides to air church dirty linen?? Also proves 2nd annointing wasn't as common as 40 years later...
16:14 I suppose this is one of the reasons why Bill Reel just grates on me. He's so effin JR HS sometimes. I'm truly interested in the story, which is covered with more detail, nuance, and respect, (Lyman) on Mormon Stories, but I almost can't get through it.
@@personofinterest8731 The bed creaking sound effect coupled with the poking fun at their age at the time. The treatment of this event/story is handled with more respect and nuance on Mormon Stories if you can find that episode. It's part of his interview with the lady out of Nevada (Shannon Caldwell Montez) who researched the Secret Meetings of 1922. I realize they are not doing a deep dive here as they have a lot of ground to cover. I guess it is funny and entertaining to some.
lieberman's marriage ( he was being respectful to both and not making a sin of lusting after every possible woman that said-yes, ie warren's jeff's sin/biblical-sin of acquiring wealth ) is one of the reasons why polygamy is part of the early church and others-belief's-outside of lds and also way morally correct under USA 🇺🇸 and uk 🇬🇧 law as the wife didn't want physical ( but sounds like she wanted everything else ) sexual activity, but social-expecting/law-expecting that one person can always be perfect/stereotype ( 1950's usa couple ) is unreasonable, fine if they had a compromise ( she also to be fair could have had injuries under the beltway 😉 that could be painful and or physical activity wasn't for her after her delivery, but still not fair for your SO to be stranded permanently as a mental health-need or physical-needs, also possible for him to understand/compromise but not a automatically ending ) and got monogamous to work but it didn't so it's reasonable for him to go find it in a different healthy way, and they didn't see hookup's or ( legal sexual services are fine with me under law but do need to be well regulated, so under age and predatory and STD are kept to a minimum ) hooker's as there thing and that's fine
A very wise new branch president! Unfortunately, Helmut was sacrificed for the well being and life of other faithful members. That was the practical reality in Nazi Germany. Even a high profile war hero sacrificed his life submitting to death by the Nazi without a meaningful public trial to preserve the life and well-being of his family. No doubt, this branch president understood there were Gestapo plants or maybe some sympathers in the branch . In the early days of the church local leadership unlike the young German Helmut or his branch president did not have the insight to exercise independent discretion so President Haight and another ordered John D Lee to commit the horrendous crime and hideous slaughter at Mountain Meadows. President Young's courier countermanding the standing orders did not arrive until after the massacre. Lee lacked the dialectal thinking to counter man Heights and other local leadership so he was tragically and foolishly, like Lt. William Calley executed a slaughter rather than disengage. Mountain Meadows thereafter like Mai Lai became a coverup . Lee , as Helmut, became the sole fall guy. (Remember from the Nazi chain of command, Helmut was a traitor, Lee on the other hand faithfully executed, like Lt Calley, leaderships standing orders , both were reviewed under a microscope to determine the issue of abuse of command discretion. The same is true of Helnuts branch president. His decisions are reviewed under a microscope to determine if he abused discretion in not more vigorously defending young Helmut. These are difficult inquiries and the correct answer is often allusive and rhetorical.
The reason why he was dealt with differently wasn’t because the Lord has a two tier system of mercy and justice but he was given higher light knowledge based upon him being an apostle and a high priest according to the temple order so he was dealt with accordingly.
Just when I thought I was getting bored with church history and needed to move on I find this discussion and get sucked back in. Great podcast guys!!!! Thanks
Seriously. It seems like an echo chamber but very important info… but when it’s all there is… it gets boring… but this is some new crazzzyyy 😂
You took the words right out of my mouth
When they said Joseph F Smith graduated with a theater degree etc my brain went to “he’s gay.” And I was right. Poor guy.
One of the best podcasts ever, just love it.
Mary Smithies was a 20 year old British convert when she married the 56 year old Lion of God, Heber C Kimball and became his 43 “wife”; they had 6 children. Of course this is the same man who cheerfully gave his 14 year old daughter to Joseph Smith and is noted for saying the missionaries in England were “picking out the prettiest women for themselves…and bringing the ugly ones for us.” What. A. Guy. He’s hailed as a “man of faith and integrity” by the BYU Religious Studies Center.
It is amazing how as a child I was indoctrinated to revere certain men (e.g. Joseph Smith Jr., Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, etc.), and how now as an adult I am disgusted by these lunatics.
@@function0077 Disgusting. Nauvoo must’ve been a swingers paradise.
43 🤦🏻♂ ( kimball with 5+so's ) no that's sinful as jeffs's-warren is as coveting wealth for $$ ( so monotonous or single can commit the same sin, based on golden caff$$$ principally ) is a kings-sin ( other sin's are mentioned, but not as much directly polygamy=fine/higher-law but does list rules for successful marriage in it/polly as well as monogamous-marriage lifestyle's ) mention directly under bible
im fine and willing to back bi's ( male-gayness sexual activity isn't backed in my understanding of church but, male gay marriage already happened technically or at least under to polly-cube circumstances, lesbian sexual activity is fine but historically was taboo and wasn't super-open but so was sex as a topic in general, surprised me as a teenager in the 2000's looking at 1880's SLC Utah, novoo IL ) and polly's in general but one must know there limits for daily activity's and my understanding/research leads me to 1 to 9 is the max and that's with out children ( maximum is around 5~ for being a decent person/parents ) being involved so really it's max 4 or 5 wife's/SO's, ps im a pollyoumory 😉 ( ps not polly because of lds if anything it's the opposite and moral/sexuality-orientated/atheist beliefs/so's ) and raised SLC-LDS aka not warren's-group but still see there choice/church ( yes we disagree with some of there doctrine like black's and priesthood and dating ect but so is that different with UMC's/other-churches as well ) on average valid as a faith based but leadership like warren is deserving jail time for predatory-crime's ect not the marriage-licenses as that law+enforcement is junk
Came for the "soaking" after that great New York Post article appeared on October 7, 2021. Albert Carrington's excommunication begins at about 1:01.00.
I knew George and Kitty and my daughter went to school with their daughter. Kitty was absolutely lovely. we came to be neighbours because I knew them. I saw the lack of support and heard negativity on a local level, for both, before 1989. basically racism and Mormonist narrow view. I'm glad to hear Kitty had such support and well thought of later. all so sad. lovely family. George had spoken up for his people and tried to get practical supports for them but there was a lot of pushback from his colleagues against his efforts, many always treating him as an outsider , as a token lamanite. I don't fully accept his guilt, though I recognise the possibility, but wonder if his confession came from his depressed state, giving in because he just wanted the trial to be over. our experience of them all was only good. r.i.p. Kitty and George
This was FIRE! 🔥 excellent episode!! ♥️💯
So interesting, guys! Nice research that you’ve done about these things! With these stories, you realize the problems with organized religion and how it can ruin people’s lives. Thanks for exposing this!😃😃😃
Brigham Young stiffed my cousins in winter Quarters for educating his children. He reminds me of trump like that; stiffing the little guy
Kaysville is where they eventually escaped from. That’s huge since our family founded Kaysville. They were a little crazy there during the 1850’s
Are there any volunteers who could post time-stamps for each story so we could easily target the story we are most interested in?
Helmuth Hübener 1:43
Richard Lyman 8:30
George P. Lee 24:45
Joseph F. Smith II, the patriarch 33:40
George D. Watt 47:40
James C. Brewster 54:21
Albert Carrington 1:00:19
How about attaching names to the photos?
What is the GA monthly allowance? As a tithe payer members of this corporation should know. Right?
P.S. no longer a tithe payer 🤑
That last story is such an example of the fact that people can believe anything if they want it to be true badly enough. He wanted to believe he wasn’t committing adultery so much that he figured out how to make it his personal reality. I think Joseph Smith did this as well with his polygamy (AKA abuse).
It also is a great example that the power of discernment with the brethren is a total myth. If they had the slightest discernment the man never would have been called as an apostle.
That poor man!
But it doesn't surprise me,
This Branch President wasn't experienced enough for the position he'd been given. 😢
Does the Mormon Church even Excommunicate people anymore? I heard the just “withdraw membership”
What’s the difference besides rhetoric
It's just the same thing with a different name. The SLC based sect of Mormonism absolutely still excommunicates people.
Bill... If possible, could the original creation date be included in the description?
Heber C Kimball had 43 “wives” and 65 children spread all over the west; apparently made little or no attempt to support them. Is that not a sin? Yet he was god’s anointed. 🤷♀️ Some poor guy born a little too late to sexually indulge himself in quicky “marriages” is excommunicated as a SINNER.
They were not his children and they were not married in the sense one would be on earth but married like baptism for the dead. They were not sleeping around.
@@stacy6994 I wonder why he let all those wives AND CHILDREN use his last name? If those women were actually married and having children with other men, they’d use their husbands’ last names. So there’s that.
Kimball was a bad dude
Up to 4". Literally the "just the tip" meme. :D @70:55
Richard Lyman: "How can I say 'no' to this?.."
Bahahahaha! LOVE the squeaking bed sound effects!
" all he's doing is singing families can be together forever", not him, at least not anymore. I can't believe they kicked out an 11 year old.
This was pretty awesome!
The power over people ,forget about GRACE, MERCY, FORGIVENESS and the UNCONDITIONAL LOVE of JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR, OUR REDEEMER OF ALL SINS.
What's the name of the Church video, which you mentioned?
Bill: I'm curious to know if you've read Moroni and the Swastika? I have it but need to finish Joanna's book on the Church and White Supremacy.
What was the most interesting part you read in the book Morrone and the swastika? I have lived in Germany at that time and I know some of the in the individuals, that were pictured in the book. Bad bad bad.
Joseph saw himself, and a threat, in Brewster I bet.
Yep, just like Joseph wrote D&C 28 to tell Hiram Page to stop getting revelations through his seer stone. And just like Elder Renlund told LDS women to stop seeking revelation about Heavenly Mother.
The gospel is true, the people aren’t. Gotta have a testimony for yourself…not dependent on imperfect people. No one…from convert to prophet…is infallible. Don’t lose your testimony over a leader who is no more perfect than yourself. We are all tempted.
Great show!
Mormon Discussion, you included photographs of each person whose excommunication story you covered. One photo you included did not have a story associated with it in your podcast, and that was Elder Robert D. Hales.
Why was Elder Hales photo included?
Never mind. I believe I mistook a photo of Eldred G. Smith for Robert D. Hales. Of course, Eldred G. Smith was never excommunicated, but he was mentioned quite a bit in this episode.
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you for showing the human side of each of these individuals. There were not just sinners, but were living, breathing human beings and had thoughts. I don't always agree with those thoughts (Albert Carrington), but I appreciate knowing them.
The details of Richard Lyman's discovery and excommunication should be widely known so that these tactics are never employed again. J.R. Clark, J.F. Smith, and H.B. Lee all had a terribly dark side. Everyone has a dark side. Most of us deal with / overcome the dark side as a natural process of maturing. These Brethren did not, and their sad example should forever stand as a warning to each one of us.
Thank you.
Adultery was an arrestable offense back in Lyman's days- hence the excuse for bringing in the sheriff.
OMG!! 72 years old!!! Well that will give me nightmares. LOL
this is absolutely ridiculous!
Does this new definition of sex mean I am a virgin? Ha!
In the case of apostle Richard Lyman is simply outrageous. Unfair is an understatement the better word is outrageous! Clearly in Lyman case it was an abuse of discretion. Hopefully, he was reinstated at some time. The truth is his wife is equally at fault. And quite frankly, on a higher level, I believe he lived a higher law who being rejected by his wife supported a second wife.
He should of kept his Priesthood and apostleship and allowed to move to Mexico and serve south of the border. Additional, church action should have been taken against the brethren for a breach of the law by stalking Lyman and destruction of property and home invasion
Carrington's story is hilarious. He was off his rocker, but in all fairness he was just following in the footsteps of Joseph Smith. I'm surprised the JST doesn't change the story where God killed the guy who pulled out.
Is this the same as the excomm extravaganza podcast you did a few years ago?
Same audio. We are moving old audio to TH-cam.
I love it, keep it up
No wife for you Lyman!
This was interesting
Lies coverups excuses and whatever. That sure is a ugly history of the church. Excellent podcast.
What is more believable re: Lyman? Competitive Sr Leaders destroying another for personal gain OR leadership that usually looks the other way, sweeps under carpet & suddenly decides to air church dirty linen?? Also proves 2nd annointing wasn't as common as 40 years later...
16:14 I suppose this is one of the reasons why Bill Reel just grates on me. He's so effin JR HS sometimes. I'm truly interested in the story, which is covered with more detail, nuance, and respect, (Lyman) on Mormon Stories, but I almost can't get through it.
Er.... What's JR HS?
Agree.
@@personofinterest8731 The bed creaking sound effect coupled with the poking fun at their age at the time. The treatment of this event/story is handled with more respect and nuance on Mormon Stories if you can find that episode. It's part of his interview with the lady out of Nevada (Shannon Caldwell Montez) who researched the Secret Meetings of 1922. I realize they are not doing a deep dive here as they have a lot of ground to cover. I guess it is funny and entertaining to some.
Re celibate wife: Unfortunate but maybe would not have happened if there were options for asexual folks
It only counts after 4 inches …
lieberman's marriage ( he was being respectful to both and not making a sin of lusting after every possible woman that said-yes, ie warren's jeff's sin/biblical-sin of acquiring wealth ) is one of the reasons why polygamy is part of the early church and others-belief's-outside of lds and also way morally correct under USA 🇺🇸 and uk 🇬🇧 law as the wife didn't want physical ( but sounds like she wanted everything else ) sexual activity, but social-expecting/law-expecting that one person can always be perfect/stereotype ( 1950's usa couple ) is unreasonable, fine if they had a compromise ( she also to be fair could have had injuries under the beltway 😉 that could be painful and or physical activity wasn't for her after her delivery, but still not fair for your SO to be stranded permanently as a mental health-need or physical-needs, also possible for him to understand/compromise but not a automatically ending ) and got monogamous to work but it didn't so it's reasonable for him to go find it in a different healthy way, and they didn't see hookup's or ( legal sexual services are fine with me under law but do need to be well regulated, so under age and predatory and STD are kept to a minimum ) hooker's as there thing and that's fine
“Maybe Joseph pulled out and that’s why there are no children” Occam’s razor suggests that JOSEPH NEVER PRACTICED POLYGAMY.
A very wise new branch president! Unfortunately, Helmut was sacrificed for the well being and life of other faithful members. That was the practical reality in Nazi Germany.
Even a high profile war hero sacrificed his life submitting to death by the Nazi without a meaningful public trial to preserve the life and well-being of his family.
No doubt, this branch president understood there were Gestapo plants or maybe some sympathers in the branch .
In the early days of the church local leadership unlike the young German Helmut or his branch president did not have the insight to exercise independent discretion so President Haight and another ordered John D Lee to commit the horrendous crime and hideous slaughter at Mountain Meadows. President Young's courier countermanding the standing orders did not arrive until after the massacre. Lee lacked the dialectal thinking to counter man Heights and other local leadership so he was tragically and foolishly, like Lt. William Calley executed a slaughter rather than disengage.
Mountain Meadows thereafter like Mai Lai became a coverup . Lee , as Helmut, became the sole fall guy. (Remember from the Nazi chain of command, Helmut was a traitor, Lee on the other hand faithfully executed, like Lt Calley, leaderships standing orders , both were reviewed under a microscope to determine the issue of abuse of command discretion. The same is true of Helnuts branch president. His decisions are reviewed under a microscope to determine if he abused discretion in not more vigorously defending young Helmut.
These are difficult inquiries and the correct answer is often allusive and rhetorical.
The reason why he was dealt with differently wasn’t because the Lord has a two tier system of mercy and justice but he was given higher light knowledge based upon him being an apostle and a high priest according to the temple order so he was dealt with accordingly.
There were two seventies who were ex'd in the last 20 years.
george p lee the church sent the 12 year old girl????????????????
How do you not know how to pronounce the word posthumously, yet are presenting on TH-cam?
Are you gonna be ok Garth? LoL
what don't you get about this eleven year old, He is messing with JSJ lies........
Boring, sorry, thumb down