The true church of Christ would not be based on misrepresentations, half truths, outright lies, and cover ups. It was this very thing that convinced me that the Mormon church could NOT be the "Church of Jesus Christ".
The cover-up is worse than the crime! That’s Watergate 101! Well explained as always RFM. RFM, you may not believe in God after Mormonism, but I believe God blessed us with your insight! Thankyou❤️
@@patricianoel7782 I think that the 1832 account had to be rejected because the LDS view of the "Godhead" had evolved between 1832 and 1838. In 1832, the LDS church believed in modalism. By 1838, tritheism became the official view.
I’ve not had proof of my suspicions till now. For that I thank you. I suspect this is only the beginning…My heart is with those who are caught unprepared.
The First Vision According to the Library of Congress: The statement that the prophet Joseph Smith made in a witnessed and recorded commencement of his translating his book in Harmony, as to the manner of his finding the plates, was as follows: He said that by a DREAM he was informed that at such a place in a certain hill, in an iron box, were some gold plates with curious engravings, which he must get and translate, and write a book; that the plates were to be kept concealed from every human being for a certain time, some two or three years; that he went to the place and dug till he came to the stone that covered the box, when he was knocked down ; that he again attempted to remove the stone, and was again knocked down. This attempt was made the third time, and the third time he was knocked down. Then he exclaimed: 'Why can't I git it?' or words to that effec and then he saw a man standing over the spot, who, to him, appeared like a Spaniard [Oh, you great son of Lucy!], having a long beard down over his breast to about here (Smith putting his hand to the pit of his stomach), WITH His (the ghost's) THROAT CUT FROM EAR TO EAR, AND THE BLOOD STREAMING DOWN,'who told him that he could not get it alone; that another person whom he (Smith) would know at first sight must come with him, and then he would get it; and when he saw Miss Emma Hale he knew that she was the person, and that after they were married she went with him to near the place and stood with her back towards him while he dug after the box, which he rolled up in his frock, and she helped carry it home; that in the same box with the plates were spectacles; the bows were of gold and the eyes were stone, and by looking through these spectacles all the characters on the plates were translated into English. "In all this narrative there was not one word about visions of God or of angels or heavenly revelation; all his information was by that DREAM and that BLEEDING GHOST. The heavenly visions and messages of angels, etc., contained in Mormon books, were afterthoughts, revised to order. While Smith was in Harmony he made the above statements, in our presence, to Rev. N. Lewis. It was here, also, that he joined the Methodist Episcopal Church. He presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class-book (June 1828) in the absence of some of the official members, among whom was the undersigned, Joseph Lewis, who, when he learned what was done, took with him Joshua McKune and had a talk with Smith. We told him plainly that such a character as he was a disgrace to the church; that he could not be a member of it unless he broke off his sins by repentance, made public confession, renounced his fraudulent and hypocritical practices, and gave some evidence that he intended to reform and conduct himself somewhat nearer like a Christian than he had done. We gave him his choice, to go before the class and publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class-book, or stand a disciplinary investigation; he chose the former, and immediately withdrew his name. So his name as a member of the class was on the book only three days. It was the general opinion that his only object in joining the church was to bolster up his reputation and gain the sympathy and help of Christians ; that is, putting on the cloak of religion to serve the Devil in."
Most likely the first First Vision was cut out of the diary because Joseph Fielding Smith was worried that David O. McKay would grant Fawn Brodie permission to view the diary back in 1944. Otherwise, there was no reason to cut pages out of a diary kept in a locked safe in a locked office. McKay did indeed grant his niece permission but she decided not to pursue it.
Does Mr. Cheesman address why the ‘32 version was written down a full 9 years after the experience was thought to have happened (1823). This really bothers me as much as the various versions. I find it hard to believe a person wouldn’t record it and at least talk to family and friends.
I was picking up my kids from grade school today here in Utah and all the kids calling after one another with names in BOM. For those that of them ending up in faith crisis, wonder if their names are then troubling to them. Hope not.
I disagree. It is far more remarkable that he did not mention two separate beings. That would be like seeing a 747 in 1820. Something he for sure would have mentioned if it had happened.
Contracts and Covenants: In our law which is just, self-ownership (personal sovereignty ) must exist if one is to be free, hence subject to judgement under the law. Contracts, similar to Covenants, are nullified in law when the person entering the contract is: 1.) Uninformed. 2.) Pressured. 3.) Deceived. Temple Covenants are invalidated for any one or all of those same reasons: 1.) When Secret because the new candidate on entering into the Temple “Covenants” is uninformed. In other words, one must fully understand what are the Temple Covenants that one will make before deciding to go on a Church mission or deciding to be Temple married for which the Church requires the “Covenants” be taken. They cannot be secret. 2.) When Pressure of any kind exist, then the Covenants are invalid. The Church has an incentive to use pressure because it is a beneficiary of each new Covenant faithfully lived. It gains for itself the promise that one’s time, labor, and life choices shall satisfy whatever it may require of the inductee. While creating and administering the Covenants to new missionaries and to new couples married in the Temple, the Church is creating pressure by claiming that it is the only right and true Church, and that its Temple Covenants must be entered into if one is to gain exaltation in the next life. 3.) When the Church Misrepresents itself to the Temple candidate, the Covenants are invalidated. The Church is a party to the Covenants, it benefits from them, it creates and administers them. It therefore has an obligation to the other party, the Temple candidate, who is trusting the Church’s representation to be honest. Unfortunately, the Church is manipulating the Candidate, hiding information about itself, giving false and deceptive and misleading and incomplete information, thereby invalidating the Covenants because consent is uninformed. www.fnhenderson.us/TempleTemptations.pdf
RFM, you explain things so well! I have a couple of questions, maybe someone can respond to. (1) Are there any references as to why, if Joseph had this vision in 1820 did he not write about it until 1832? Wouldn't he have been so darn excited about it he'd want to tell people? (2) Is that when he told his mother and then didn't write it down for 12 more years? I wonder how this 12 year gap relates to other vision commentaries from Joseph. Did those take 12 years to write down as well? Thanks!
If you saw someone running around naked on the street waving a flag you would take out your phone and record it. Back then they wrote everything down and told others their stories. This is yet another example of why Joseph is a fraud.
In Joseph's account he is excited about it and does immediately tell others. He was ridiculed by a minister for having the vision. Because of persecution he was selective.
@@zon3665 bullshit... he didn't even write anything down or even tell his family for even a decade. And the persecuted narrative is getting old. Learn the real history before spouting off the faith promoting drivel the so called church is telling you.
Joseph Smith was clear that Christ and God didn't appear simultaneously. The current version in the Pearl of Great Price is a concise rendering summing up the event.
Even saying he saw the Father is a lie , as you would die if you saw His face. You're pictures of his vision( s ) are lies too. Only Jesus the visible YHWH appeared to people in the O.T . And sometimes he was called the Angel of YHWH, angel just means messenger , so Jesus the Logos wasn't a literal angel.
@@davidjanbaz7728 The Holy Ghost doesn't bear witness to lies. Your god is a false god. Why? Because its nothing more than Greek philosophy clothed in christian terms. Because your god is Greek philosophy he doesn't exist. The God of Joseph Smith is the true and living God.
@@gunnerlawts you are correct, joseph smith was fully dishonest on several occasions. Joseph Fielding Smith FULLY omitted truth from the membership and his motivation for doing this was selfish.
@@nickdipaolofan5948 Are you Christian? How do you handle Peter saying he didn't know who Jesus was three times? Do you say he must not have been an Apostle, and the church he took over must not be true? You are well on your way to being a hypocrite at your judgment. There's a big difference between Peter, and Joseph Smith; It is a known fact he lied, but with Joseph, it is merely gossip. So if you support Peter and Christianity; you know it's founded on a liar. And when you reject Smith; you do it on the basis of not being certain he was lying. Trust me - The LDS Smith's were prophets of God. You are duped.
You finally mention Steve Sanderfer. He had two children, with a woman he met on his mission. He was allowed, he said, by his mission president to be friends with her and after his mission he returns and goes to law school but not before going back and dragging a woman who doesn't speak English to the US and says (whine) that he had to drive for her, shop for her, etc etc.
When the first words out of a missionaries mouth is the story of the first vision which is then used to support the true nature of and God, being two separate individuals and laying the ground work for the restoration of all things, an account written 12 years and then another nearly twenty years after the fact that differ, I find to be more than slightly problematic. After 65 years I’ve had many experiences that I won’t forget and I don’t need to embellish them and they stay the same in my mind the details don’t change. Never spoil a good story for the sake of the truth, I guess🤷
Missionaries for the church retell the First Vision account numerous times on their missions. Even missionaries don't repeat the First Vision verbatim word for word each time. In fact in retelling the account many aspects of the event are left out. Which hardly means its fake or that the missionaries are trying to hide aspects of the First Vision. All it means is that its another account nothing more, nothing less.
@@ajackson5955 I was proving a point. He said he'd write it down and never change it. All someone has to say is explain what you mean about what you wrote, and if they do, then you have another account of the event. To be alarmed that there is multiple accounts is a shallow argument. There is additional details concerning Joseph's first vision that no one speaks of. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means that every detail isn't told each time. Another detail about the first vision is that Joseph thought that the trees in the grove were being consumed by the glory of God during the event. When the trees weren't harmed he was surprised. In most accounts of the First Vision that is left out. Most people aren't interested in it. Again, there's nothing alarming concerning multiple accounts of the First Vision.
Trust in the lord And lean not unto thine own understanding... and the lord will direct thy paths.. Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. - you've lost your way. Salt that's lost its savor. What did Jesus mean when he said, ye are the salt of the earth, but when it has lost its savor it is good for nothing??? By your own wisdom and age and critical thinking you've allowed yourself to become dissuaded from faith and hope even from the existence of God and the testimony of his prophets even of Christ and his sacrifice and death and Resurrection. Your not original. You're just another example. In your pride you think faith and hope and humility and prayer and scripture are foolishness and susceptible to manipulation and in part you are not wrong but clearly you went all the way to another extreme. Instead of weighing it in the balance of your former testimony which was light and truth and good you weighed it against your own understanding.
MD Inc; I am goint to go for the juggular, straight up, and skip to his ace argument that Smith lied between the two accounts, beginning at the around 9 minute mark. Remember - I am using logic - just like Corporal clown is when he appeals to the way it is written in English. With irrelevant parts removed, first account paraprhrasing JS (not by him, 1832): ". . . that before he went . . . to pray, he had already concluded that all the churches were in apostasy." First by JS (1832): "My mind became exceedingly distressed, . . . and by searching the scriptures, I found that mankind did not come unto the Lord, but that they had apostatised from the true and living faith, and there was no society or demomination that was built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ, as recorded in the New Testament." Second account by JS (1838): "My object . . . was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. . . . I asked the personages . . . which of all the sects was right; for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong." To see this as a contradiction is to trample on the rules of English, and to read between the lines. I will explain: When JS said "by searching the scriptures", he has placed us in a fixed time. No scripture was written after AD 100. The rules of English stipulate that to move to another time, it needs to be shown. If we stick to that rule, what follows is not about in his day, which he fails to bring into his present time. I.E. they had apostatised in scriptural times, and a further 1,700 years could have had a restoration take place. One has to assume Smith firmly beieved this was impossible (needing to read between the lines AND break the rule). No society has to be still pre-100AD. As recorded does not take it into his day, but is just the measuring stick for the conclusion no society existed by 100AD. And to top it off, Smith says he was exceedingly distressed at the time he was thinking these things. It is folly to hold a person to a statement when 6 years later another statement is made sans distress - even if the first statement had vaidity in the English language constructs. So if JS had an opinion about pre-100AD, what does he say in 1820? He wants to know which is right in 1820. There has been 1,700 years for man to get it right, and even for God to restore the gospel. It is good reason to ask. Now for the last bit - "at this time it had never entered into my heart" - at this time and never don't go together. It is poor English, and could have been better expressed. The 'never' is reduced to 'now', but this time is at the time of the vision, and 1,700 years after he concluded there had been an apostasy. He didn't ask the Lord which church was right and he should join in 100AD. Another point to consider is that in his distressed state his mind concluded an apostasy occured by 100AD, but said nothing about what had entered his heart concerning 1820. In 1820, he is saying nothing had entered his heart, and omits the thoughts in his mind. Chalk and cheese. One needs to be speaking of precisely the same thing to contradict one's self. We have 100AD vs 1820 AND mind vs heart. We have a distressed time and a clear time, and 12 years afer the even and then 18 years later. The situation is not one to bet your eternal welfare on.
Saul was an intellectual and stacked up all of his arguments against Jesus and his followers just like you do--then the Lord appeared to him on the road to Emmaus. Saul became Paul and we know but more importantly he changed his heart and he became the greatest defender of Christianity ever. Hopefully you still believe in the Jesus and the bible .
@@taxtrustsestates [Saul was an intellectual and stacked up all of his arguments against Jesus and his followers just like you do] .Read over my post and show me where I was talking about Saul? Try looking for where the topic is about intellectuals? Show me if you find anything? Now for the big one; show me where I stack up all my arguments against Jesus? You said he did that just like I do, and you lie. Rules of English. In fact, prove to me Saul could even speak English? So far, you are off on a tangent. Have another read of my post and look for the theme? Isn't it that Smith has not contradicted himself in the two examples? You haven't come close to the topic. So - you say Saul "stacked up all of his arguments against Jesus and his followers". My bible reading has no list of all those arguments from Saul. It says he persecuted Christians and rounded them up for punishment by Jewry (his employer), but no mention of any intellectual arguments. Please, search your bible and list these arguments? I am interested in seeing them. At this stage, I see you as a simpleton who should not be teaching lies. I hope you have a point by the end. [--then the Lord appeared to him on the road to Emmaus.] Was it because he did like I do? Then I should have had Jesus appear to me. Or was it because he kicked against the pricks and the Lord wanted him on his side? I am already on his side, so no personal visit for me. Besides, I don't go near the road to Emmaus, lol. [Saul became Paul and we know but more importantly he changed his heart and he became the greatest defender of Christianity ever.] There is no point here that relates to my refute of Smith's accounts contradicting. You are still off with the fairies. Joseph hasn't become Fred, and I haven't become Chris (or any other names) - have you had a name change? More importantly; Paul defended the true church, and if he were here today, he would defend the Church of jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He believed in the Lord appearing to chosen people; and Christians have all dropped that from their beliefs. He believed in holding God's authority, and Christians have eliminated that one. He believed it when Jesus said a house divided is of the devil, and Christians have divided 45,000 ways. There is hardly anything about Christianity that Paul would agree with, now - times have changed. He would look for a temple among Christianity and not find one, but most of all; he would tell people they were crazy to believe in the trinity. [Hopefully you still believe in the Jesus and the bible .] I know my KJV pretty well - it is in the LDS canon. LDS are the only one's who have the real Jesus of the bible leading them today. Christians believe in a crazy schizo MPD freak show that is not the Jesus of the bible and is actually invented, so has no saving power. You can't even find 'trinity' in the bible, yet you all claim that if it's not in the bible we won't believe it. Hypocrites. Satan has every one of the Christian cults in his grasp. They keep the gullible away from the Lord and their exaltation. Paul wasn't wrong then, but would be now if he defended Christianity. BTW, Paul gave a couple of accounts of that event on the road, and each is very contradictory. You should study them. You Christians are hypocrites for rejecting Joseph Smith on any basis of apparent contradiction. Brainless fools, as well, as evidenced by your nonsense that most Christians dish up. They have been doing this for the last 200 years.
@@taxtrustsestates You wrote as if you were a Christian, so I responded as if you were, then I see another post and you are LDS. You can ignore my thinking you were in a cult, but learn that you have poorly addressed the issue. Not evey LDS is an intellect (doesn't have to be, either), and you are certainly not displaying any. I call a spade a spade. You said I stacked up my arguments against Jesus, but then I see that you may have been addressing MD Inc. or RFM, even though it is posted to me. My apologies for that, if I was not your target. I do make mistakes, myself. Correspondence should never be this sloppy.
@@gunnerlawts lmbo ! Jesus and Paul preached the 2nd temple Biblical Judaism/ Christianity . Joseph Smith was clueless of this theology and the personages are impersonations of God and Jesus. This 2nd temple Biblical Judaism is well known and the trinity comes from this theology of the Godhead. It doesn't matter what Joseph said or thinks he restored because it ain't 2nd temple Biblical Judaism/ Christianity . That theology is in the book: Two Powers of Heaven by Segal and in Dr.Michael S.Heiser videos on TH-cam. The trinity which you don't believe in comes from this theology and was rejected by Ribbinical Judaism in the 2nd century AD. You're whole church is based on lies.
No hatred. It was a straight forward expose of a historical issue that evidenced the deception and cover up of a very problematic document for the church. I left 5 years ago due to what I know to be a number of lies regarding many other issues. But you are free to live a lie as long as you like. Good luck.
Deebishop7346, once I saw a video that proved an accountant was swindling his clients from their money. I am now his number one client...................................................
And perhaps these videos will help you to continue believing in the Book of Abraham?? Mormon Stories #1339: Dr. Robert Ritner - An Expert Egyptologist Translates the Book of Abraham Pt 1 m.th-cam.com/video/ORNYUyHg3pY/w-d-xo.html Mormon Stories #1340: Dr. Robert Ritner - An Expert Egyptologist Translates the Book of Abraham Pt 2 th-cam.com/video/df4flxToFvM/w-d-xo.html Mormon Stories #1341: Dr. Robert Ritner - An Expert Egyptologist's View of the Book of Abraham Pt. 3 m.th-cam.com/video/H70IdpLHhZE/w-d-xo.html
@Jay in Japan I had to switch my response from your question on Zelph because those cretins blocked me 3 years ago. Now think about how nice they are? I had them beat, and their only gutless recourse was to block me. Jesus forgives small matters like not being nice, but their working for old Nick is probably unforgivable. What do the Christians say about it?
No, no, no - the internet is not destroying the church. Good grief. History is not destroying the church either. Ignorance is destroying the less committed in the church. That is all. It is ignorance along with misdirection - like this channel. I gain much from each account of the illuminating FIrst Vision. I embrace them. I am grateful for them.
@@davidjanbaz7728 no again. The church is moving forward beautifully. If your faith is lagging then strengthen it. Each person has a personal responsibility to that in their own life. You can do that by rereading The Book of Mormon, by living the Gospel more fully, by paying an honest tithing, etc. Complaining about it and constantly criticizing the leaders just weakens you personally. Go back to basics. Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son. They did in reality speak to him. They restored the keys of the priesthood and established the pattern of Apostolic succession. The Plan of Salvation is real. I hope you can find your place in the Gospel of Jesus Christ again. .
@Randy G You are so right. Everyone has to make up their own mind about religion. They are not going to see eye to eye at all times. Which is why it is important to know that others have different viewpoints. Some, like myself, actually believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Kingdom of God on earth. Others believe it has incredible doctrines but does not include enough people and lifestyles, as if they are in control instead of God. Personally, I too just want people to know there are other legitimate viewpoints, from the ones expressed in the video.
If people want to feel betrayed by something so silly then let them. Every body tells parts of any story to make certain points depending on the context they are asked. If I had a meeting with my boss and related how my boss and I talked something over together that was obviously only from one perspective. If we were not alone in the room while we talked there would be no reason to mention the 3rd person present unless that 3rd person added to that particular point. To say I was lying about talking to my boss because I left out the 3rd person is rediculous. That's what anti Mormons do. If this were another religion nobody would be nit picking such things. Joseph Smith is in the Bible that's all anybidy needs to see to solve this whole matter. Click TH-cam title " Book of Abraham part 9" By my name above.
Talking something over with your boss is a lot different than seeing the God of the Universe and his Son. Where exactly is Joseph Smith in the Bible? Are you still imposing your cartoon characters and mathematical formulas and computer codes onto the Mormon church's scriptures?
@@deskjockie4948 Check it out the timeline numbers and codes come from the word of God not me. Check Daniel and Revelation. If they don't add up then I will pay attention to your efforts to down play that which obviously adds up exactly in the context God prescribed it. Debunk or shut up.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Here is several places you can see Joseph Smith in the Bible. Grab your Bible and click TH-cam titled "Book of Abraham part 7" and " Book of Abraham part 9", Then come back here and tell me why Joseph Smith is not in the Bible. Be side he is! I guarantee you will not be able to prove it wrong.
No organization is fully transparent--no not one--not even the "true church". I'm sure there are all kinds of things we don't know. Nevertheless, I believe that Jesus lived and died for us. His gospel was restored and the Book of Mormon is true. Only when the savior comes again will his organization will be perfect and will be run by him perfectly--until then we do the best we can and imperfect as we all are.
What if it isn't true and you have just been conditioned to think it is? How do you resolve the the massive amount of evidence against it being true? docs.google.com/document/d/1yzkCZkhjp_WmU9n6xWjqO0-ivX-ppQ0HrRjy4ItZz-U/edit mormondiscussions.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/MormonPrimer7.pdf? cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf
@@MormonDiscussion You are not the one who gets to decide whether it is true. I have read the CES letter many times. It is poorly written and not compelling to me or most that I know. You have lost the spirit and the ability to understand the things of God which Paul says are spiritually discerned. I choose to believe in Christ and his divinity. I feel his presence in my life especially when I read the scriptures. The day will come when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Bill, your knee bowed the Master at one time in your life--and will again in the coming day.
@@taxtrustsestates Every knee will bow and confess Jesus as Lord . Lord here means God not a second class god as you believe and you refuse to worship Jesus as Lord. You're counterfeit church is fantasy just as the evidence testifies . Many are waking up to this fact.
@@davidjanbaz7728 We will see when he comes and judges all of us--you included. "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
I'm not a Mormon but I know a lot of LDS people and always found them to be moral, honorable people. If you don't like the LDS church don't attend, don't give tithes and move on with your life. Why must you endlessly post videos of how untrue the church is? It takes about 45 minutes to figure out Smith was a con man and a sex offender. One 45 minute video would expose Smith for being the jackal he was. This channel seems to be obsessed with picking apart everything LDS. I think most Mormons know the church is bullshit but just go out of tradition and community, and good for them. Atheism is a religion too, and it's empty as hell.
If you had been raised in the church and devoted thousands of hours and even more money to an organization that has hidden the truth of its foundations, you may feel differently. I spent two years of my life in full-time service to this church, for which I paid with my own money that I saved from the time I was a child. During this time I delayed my education, to my detriment. I did all of this for a lie. I cannot change these things, but I will never stop telling people that the church is a fraud.
@@ajackson5955I sympathize with you. Even as a nevermo, I can understand why people make long uploads about the church. There are several reasons.: It's therapeutic, it makes sense of people's experiences. Mormonism is a genuinely interesting religion. The way it was created etc, and the weird doctrines. Deception is interesting! Look at the popularity of crime programmes. Mormonism is full of deception and cover- ups. Looking at the evidence, for example against the Book of Mormon is fascinating. There are tonnes of books about Mormonism, so it should not be surprising that there are tonnes of uploads. Cults are interesting. They tell us a lot about psychology and manipulation. Congratulations on your journey out.
@@ajackson5955 I'm Catholic, we were VERY aware of our church's history, good and bad. In your upbringing didn't anyone know about Joseph and his antics. I was raised in the Midwest and we had a chapter in our history class about the Mormons. We were told Joseph Smith was thrown off a building and trampled to death. I asked the first Mormon I ever met about polygamy and if they still practiced it (dumb I know). He looked at me like I was crazy. I found Mormons to be wonderful and faithful people. A 1/3 of our class at Fort Huachuca was Mormon. They were VERY dedicated people. I guess that's what always shocks me about Mormonstories, a lot of people that come on are very sophisticated and educated. No one ever thought to read the "anti" stuff? Even if it was prohibited I'd still read it, I'm a curious kind a guy. Maybe someone can help. I LOVE this channel from a sociological perspective.
Call yourself 'Mormon Discussions'? Well, let's see if you discuss or block? This hidden clown you picked up on is a modern day Korihor - a silvertongue with deception in his motives. I am going to refute him with just a little bit of logic, and I reserve the right to offer it for a balanced discussion. Any person who pretends to be broadcasting behind enemy lines has to be a clown, and it is ironic that you put up a video about honesty and openness by showing a corporal in a bunker. You have already shot yourself in the foot (no pun intended). Tell me straight? Is Radio Free Mormon a Corporal in a bunker behind enemy lines? lol True - or not true?
@@gunnerlawts How do you define your stupid/idiot label you ascribe to RFM? Do you understand that Joseph Smith believed in the Trinity doctrine and then changed his mind? 'The variation of the 'first vision' accounts and the timelines, particularly the 1832 and 1837 versions to compare, that are also compatible with the 1830 first edition of the Book of Mormon compared to the 1837 edition where Joseph shifts his belief that there are 3 separate personages within the Godhead. The Book of Mormon has been drastically changed/edited since the first edition. How can a prophet of God not know who God is? Is he 3 in 1 or 1 in 3? Moving on, it's NOT just Joseph Smith. The same goes for Brigham Young as well. He taught that Adam in the Garden of Eden was God the Father Elohim. Young taught it for 25 years as a salvation issue. Again, how can one be a prophet of God if he doesn't know who God is?
The betrayal of being systematically lied to for generations is VERY DISCONCERTING.
💯
Yes almost 50 and I couldn't imagine how much worse the elderly that are in there last year's are feeling 🙏🙏🙏
@@VromanEmpire 63! Wife and daughters still TBM! I have the feeling of doing something very destructive with that church!
The true church of Christ would not be based on misrepresentations, half truths, outright lies, and cover ups. It was this very thing that convinced me that the Mormon church could NOT be the "Church of Jesus Christ".
@@deskjockie4948 the church of Joseph's Myth
They are FINALLY coming clean because they don't have a choice!
This broke my shelf. I resigned from my position as clerk the same week.
THIS is what I prefer. No jibber-jabber. Tight. Organized. No stridency. Thank you.
The cover-up is worse than the crime! That’s Watergate 101! Well explained as always RFM. RFM, you may not believe in God after Mormonism, but I believe God blessed us with your insight! Thankyou❤️
Question 🙋♀️ why did JS change his record of the first vision ? Why didn’t JS just stick with the 1832 story?
@@patricianoel7782 I think that the 1832 account had to be rejected because the LDS view of the "Godhead" had evolved between 1832 and 1838. In 1832, the LDS church believed in modalism. By 1838, tritheism became the official view.
@@patricianoel7782 probably to try to prove that the father and son are two different gods and that he was worthy to see the face of god
@@patricianoel7782the church always changes it’s “revelations”. It’s in a constant state of flux.
Outstanding research and delivery - thanks for all that you do RFM!
Korihor would be proud.
@@gunnerlawts Nup…he never existed except in a con mans deluded mind… 😜
@@pattykake7195 And in hundreds of millions of copies of the Book of Mormon. People should read it.
@@gunnerlawts “Chloroform in Print”….and BS as well..😴
@@pattykake7195 If you quote Mark Twain, give him the credit. That stuff is too good for you to think of.
I prefer my version..The one where he saw no beings because he made it up.
😄 I like your version too!
If he made it up, then he's a theological genius on what he produced. That alone is reason enough to honor him.
Biggest scam of all time.
🤣
@@zon3665 Yeah, and deceiving his legal wife about his "marrying" other women without her knowledge is reason to honor him too...
I’ve not had proof of my suspicions till now. For that I thank you. I suspect this is only the beginning…My heart is with those who are caught unprepared.
The First Vision According to the Library of Congress:
The statement that the prophet Joseph Smith made in a witnessed and recorded commencement of his translating his book in Harmony, as to the manner of his finding the plates, was as follows:
He said that by a DREAM he was informed that at such a place in a certain hill, in an iron box, were some gold plates with curious engravings, which he must get and translate, and write a book; that the plates were to be kept concealed from every human being for a certain time, some two or three years; that he went to the place and dug till he came to the stone that covered the box, when he was knocked down ; that he again attempted to remove the stone, and was again knocked down. This attempt was made the third time, and the third time he was knocked down. Then he exclaimed: 'Why can't I git it?' or words to that effec and then he saw a man standing over the spot, who, to him, appeared like a Spaniard [Oh, you great son of Lucy!], having a long beard down over his breast to about here (Smith putting his hand to the pit of his stomach), WITH His (the ghost's) THROAT CUT FROM EAR TO EAR, AND THE BLOOD STREAMING DOWN,'who told him that he could not get it alone; that another person whom he (Smith) would know at first sight must come with him, and then he would get it; and when he saw Miss Emma Hale he knew that she was the person, and that after they were married she went with him to near the place and stood with her back towards him while he dug after the box, which he rolled up in his frock, and she helped carry it home; that in the same box with the plates were spectacles; the bows were of gold and the eyes were stone, and by looking through these spectacles all the characters on the plates were translated into English.
"In all this narrative there was not one word about visions of God or of angels or heavenly revelation; all his information was by that DREAM and that BLEEDING GHOST. The heavenly visions and messages of angels, etc., contained in Mormon books, were afterthoughts, revised to order. While Smith was in Harmony he made the above statements, in our presence, to Rev. N. Lewis. It was here, also, that he joined the Methodist Episcopal Church. He presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class-book (June 1828) in the absence of some of the official members, among whom was the undersigned, Joseph Lewis, who, when he learned what was done, took with him Joshua McKune and had a talk with Smith. We told him plainly that such a character as he was a disgrace to the church; that he could not be a member of it unless he broke off his sins by repentance, made public confession, renounced his fraudulent and hypocritical practices, and gave some evidence that he intended to reform and conduct himself somewhat nearer like a Christian than he had done. We gave him his choice, to go before the class and publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class-book, or stand a disciplinary investigation; he chose the former, and immediately withdrew his name. So his name as a member of the class was on the book only three days. It was the general opinion that his only object in joining the church was to bolster up his reputation and gain the sympathy and help of Christians ; that is, putting on the cloak of religion to serve the Devil in."
Biggest scam of all time.
besides the moon "landing", Bigfoot, the JFK assassination, the RFK assassination, the official 9-11 story.
The Church of Plausible Deniability roll$ forth.
Enjoyed this episode! Thanks so much RFM!
And they keep saying church history wasn't hidden and that we're just lazy learners...
Most likely the first First Vision was cut out of the diary because Joseph Fielding Smith was worried that David O. McKay would grant Fawn Brodie permission to view the diary back in 1944. Otherwise, there was no reason to cut pages out of a diary kept in a locked safe in a locked office. McKay did indeed grant his niece permission but she decided not to pursue it.
Had Brodie discovered and published the details of the First Vision, it would have been one more item for apologist Hugh Nibley to deny.
Good timing, I think I had looked for account discrepancies around the day you posted this
Does Mr. Cheesman address why the ‘32 version was written down a full 9 years after the experience was thought to have happened (1823). This really bothers me as much as the various versions. I find it hard to believe a person wouldn’t record it and at least talk to family and friends.
The more I find out the more I can believe people actually buy it. Crazy
Becoming a true church is messy. Remaining a true church is impossible.
Hi one thing I would like to know-is that statue of Moroni back atop the temple?
I was picking up my kids from grade school today here in Utah and all the kids calling after one another with names in BOM. For those that of them ending up in faith crisis, wonder if their names are then troubling to them. Hope not.
I disagree. It is far more remarkable that he did not mention two separate beings. That would be like seeing a 747 in 1820. Something he for sure would have mentioned if it had happened.
Contracts and Covenants:
In our law which is just, self-ownership (personal sovereignty ) must exist if one is to be free, hence subject to judgement under the law. Contracts, similar to Covenants, are nullified in law when the person entering the contract is: 1.) Uninformed. 2.) Pressured. 3.) Deceived. Temple Covenants are invalidated for any one or all of those same reasons:
1.) When Secret because the new candidate on entering into the Temple “Covenants” is uninformed. In other words, one must fully understand what are the Temple Covenants that one will make before deciding to go on a Church mission or deciding to be Temple married for which the Church requires the “Covenants” be taken. They cannot be secret.
2.) When Pressure of any kind exist, then the Covenants are invalid. The Church has an incentive to use pressure because it is a beneficiary of each new Covenant faithfully lived. It gains for itself the promise that one’s time, labor, and life choices shall satisfy whatever it may require of the inductee.
While creating and administering the Covenants to new missionaries and to new couples married in the Temple, the Church is creating pressure by claiming that it is the only right and true Church, and that its Temple Covenants must be entered into if one is to gain exaltation in the next life.
3.) When the Church Misrepresents itself to the Temple candidate, the Covenants are invalidated. The Church is a party to the Covenants, it benefits from them, it creates and administers them. It therefore has an obligation to the other party, the Temple candidate, who is trusting the Church’s representation to be honest. Unfortunately, the Church is manipulating the Candidate, hiding information about itself, giving false and deceptive and misleading and incomplete information, thereby invalidating the Covenants because consent is uninformed.
www.fnhenderson.us/TempleTemptations.pdf
could you please do a episode on McConkies "How to start a Cult"? it is so impossible to not overlap that speech without jS going down in flames.
Why can't I subscribe to RFM?
RFM, you explain things so well! I have a couple of questions, maybe someone can respond to. (1) Are there any references as to why, if Joseph had this vision in 1820 did he not write about it until 1832? Wouldn't he have been so darn excited about it he'd want to tell people? (2) Is that when he told his mother and then didn't write it down for 12 more years? I wonder how this 12 year gap relates to other vision commentaries from Joseph. Did those take 12 years to write down as well? Thanks!
If you saw someone running around naked on the street waving a flag you would take out your phone and record it. Back then they wrote everything down and told others their stories. This is yet another example of why Joseph is a fraud.
In Joseph's account he is excited about it and does immediately tell others. He was ridiculed by a minister for having the vision. Because of persecution he was selective.
@@zon3665 bullshit... he didn't even write anything down or even tell his family for even a decade. And the persecuted narrative is getting old. Learn the real history before spouting off the faith promoting drivel the so called church is telling you.
@@sdfotodude You need to evolve a little more before participating in civilized society.
@@zon3665 Joseph was a fucking liar. I hope that doesn't hurt your tender feelings.
Nice to hear Semper Paratus the Coast Guard song for the intro.
Didn't Joseph Smith refer to the "Lord who was crucyfied"?
No, that's Joseph Smith's own name.
Are you U.S. Coast Guard? I was in 1969 "Alameda Boot Camp" Company Echo-70 ! I just turned 71 year old...
Joseph Smith was clear that Christ and God didn't appear simultaneously. The current version in the Pearl of Great Price is a concise rendering summing up the event.
You're great at stretching "truth".
Even saying he saw the Father is a lie , as you would die if you saw His face.
You're pictures of his vision( s ) are lies too.
Only Jesus the visible YHWH appeared to people in the O.T . And sometimes he was called the Angel of YHWH, angel just means messenger , so Jesus the Logos wasn't a literal angel.
@@davidjanbaz7728 The Holy Ghost doesn't bear witness to lies. Your god is a false god. Why? Because its nothing more than Greek philosophy clothed in christian terms. Because your god is Greek philosophy he doesn't exist. The God of Joseph Smith is the true and living God.
A half truth is still a half lie!!
A half truth is a misnomer; much like being half pregnant.
@@gunnerlawts Joey was fully pregnant 😳.
@@davidjanbaz7728 And you have given a half truth cut in half 100 times over, lol.
@@gunnerlawts you are correct, joseph smith was fully dishonest on several occasions. Joseph Fielding Smith FULLY omitted truth from the membership and his motivation for doing this was selfish.
@@nickdipaolofan5948 Are you Christian? How do you handle Peter saying he didn't know who Jesus was three times? Do you say he must not have been an Apostle, and the church he took over must not be true? You are well on your way to being a hypocrite at your judgment. There's a big difference between Peter, and Joseph Smith; It is a known fact he lied, but with Joseph, it is merely gossip. So if you support Peter and Christianity; you know it's founded on a liar. And when you reject Smith; you do it on the basis of not being certain he was lying. Trust me - The LDS Smith's were prophets of God. You are duped.
You finally mention Steve Sanderfer. He had two children, with a woman he met on his mission. He was allowed, he said, by his mission president to be friends with her and after his mission he returns and goes to law school but not before going back and dragging a woman who doesn't speak English to the US and says (whine) that he had to drive for her, shop for her, etc etc.
Great work!
Definitely too many advertisements.
When the first words out of a missionaries mouth is the story of the first vision which is then used to support the true nature of and God, being two separate individuals and laying the ground work for the restoration of all things, an account written 12 years and then another nearly twenty years after the fact that differ, I find to be more than slightly problematic. After 65 years I’ve had many experiences that I won’t forget and I don’t need to embellish them and they stay the same in my mind the details don’t change. Never spoil a good story for the sake of the truth, I guess🤷
Thanks for the truth. I wont find it in the corporate mormon church. Lol
Missionaries for the church retell the First Vision account numerous times on their missions. Even missionaries don't repeat the First Vision verbatim word for word each time. In fact in retelling the account many aspects of the event are left out. Which hardly means its fake or that the missionaries are trying to hide aspects of the First Vision. All it means is that its another account nothing more, nothing less.
I think if I saw God and His Son, I'd write it down ASAP and NEVER change what I saw.
@@happix-mo4441 Can you explain what you mean?
@Z, I mean the church is coming clean about the history. They can't hide from it.
@@zon3665 how in the world do you not know what was meant by the comment you replied to? It’s pretty clear.
@@ajackson5955 I was proving a point. He said he'd write it down and never change it. All someone has to say is explain what you mean about what you wrote, and if they do, then you have another account of the event. To be alarmed that there is multiple accounts is a shallow argument. There is additional details concerning Joseph's first vision that no one speaks of. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means that every detail isn't told each time. Another detail about the first vision is that Joseph thought that the trees in the grove were being consumed by the glory of God during the event. When the trees weren't harmed he was surprised. In most accounts of the First Vision that is left out. Most people aren't interested in it. Again, there's nothing alarming concerning multiple accounts of the First Vision.
Trust in the lord And lean not unto thine own understanding... and the lord will direct thy paths..
Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
- you've lost your way. Salt that's lost its savor. What did Jesus mean when he said, ye are the salt of the earth, but when it has lost its savor it is good for nothing???
By your own wisdom and age and critical thinking you've allowed yourself to become dissuaded from faith and hope even from the existence of God and the testimony of his prophets even of Christ and his sacrifice and death and Resurrection. Your not original. You're just another example. In your pride you think faith and hope and humility and prayer and scripture are foolishness and susceptible to manipulation and in part you are not wrong but clearly you went all the way to another extreme. Instead of weighing it in the balance of your former testimony which was light and truth and good you weighed it against your own understanding.
Ok found out it was Bountiful-thanks!
There's a church video which now claims there are nine versions of the first vision.
😂I agreed with the previous comments and I am not, nor ever have been, LDS! 🤣
Your loss.
@@gunnerlawts Never, PTL.
MD Inc; I am goint to go for the juggular, straight up, and skip to his ace argument that Smith lied between the two accounts, beginning at the around 9 minute mark. Remember - I am using logic - just like Corporal clown is when he appeals to the way it is written in English. With irrelevant parts removed, first account paraprhrasing JS (not by him, 1832):
". . . that before he went . . . to pray, he had already concluded that all the churches were in apostasy."
First by JS (1832):
"My mind became exceedingly distressed, . . . and by searching the scriptures, I found that mankind did not come unto the Lord, but that they had apostatised from the true and living faith, and there was no society or demomination that was built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ, as recorded in the New Testament."
Second account by JS (1838):
"My object . . . was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. . . . I asked the personages . . . which of all the sects was right; for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong."
To see this as a contradiction is to trample on the rules of English, and to read between the lines. I will explain:
When JS said "by searching the scriptures", he has placed us in a fixed time. No scripture was written after AD 100. The rules of English stipulate that to move to another time, it needs to be shown. If we stick to that rule, what follows is not about in his day, which he fails to bring into his present time. I.E. they had apostatised in scriptural times, and a further 1,700 years could have had a restoration take place. One has to assume Smith firmly beieved this was impossible (needing to read between the lines AND break the rule). No society has to be still pre-100AD. As recorded does not take it into his day, but is just the measuring stick for the conclusion no society existed by 100AD. And to top it off, Smith says he was exceedingly distressed at the time he was thinking these things. It is folly to hold a person to a statement when 6 years later another statement is made sans distress - even if the first statement had vaidity in the English language constructs.
So if JS had an opinion about pre-100AD, what does he say in 1820? He wants to know which is right in 1820. There has been 1,700 years for man to get it right, and even for God to restore the gospel. It is good reason to ask. Now for the last bit - "at this time it had never entered into my heart" - at this time and never don't go together. It is poor English, and could have been better expressed. The 'never' is reduced to 'now', but this time is at the time of the vision, and 1,700 years after he concluded there had been an apostasy. He didn't ask the Lord which church was right and he should join in 100AD. Another point to consider is that in his distressed state his mind concluded an apostasy occured by 100AD, but said nothing about what had entered his heart concerning 1820. In 1820, he is saying nothing had entered his heart, and omits the thoughts in his mind. Chalk and cheese. One needs to be speaking of precisely the same thing to contradict one's self. We have 100AD vs 1820 AND mind vs heart. We have a distressed time and a clear time, and 12 years afer the even and then 18 years later. The situation is not one to bet your eternal welfare on.
Saul was an intellectual and stacked up all of his arguments against Jesus and his followers just like you do--then the Lord appeared to him on the road to Emmaus. Saul became Paul and we know but more importantly he changed his heart and he became the greatest defender of Christianity ever. Hopefully you still believe in the Jesus and the bible .
@@taxtrustsestates [Saul was an intellectual and stacked up all of his arguments against Jesus and his followers just like you do] .Read over my post and show me where I was talking about Saul? Try looking for where the topic is about intellectuals? Show me if you find anything? Now for the big one; show me where I stack up all my arguments against Jesus? You said he did that just like I do, and you lie. Rules of English. In fact, prove to me Saul could even speak English? So far, you are off on a tangent. Have another read of my post and look for the theme? Isn't it that Smith has not contradicted himself in the two examples? You haven't come close to the topic. So - you say Saul "stacked up all of his arguments against Jesus and his followers". My bible reading has no list of all those arguments from Saul. It says he persecuted Christians and rounded them up for punishment by Jewry (his employer), but no mention of any intellectual arguments. Please, search your bible and list these arguments? I am interested in seeing them. At this stage, I see you as a simpleton who should not be teaching lies. I hope you have a point by the end.
[--then the Lord appeared to him on the road to Emmaus.] Was it because he did like I do? Then I should have had Jesus appear to me. Or was it because he kicked against the pricks and the Lord wanted him on his side? I am already on his side, so no personal visit for me. Besides, I don't go near the road to Emmaus, lol.
[Saul became Paul and we know but more importantly he changed his heart and he became the greatest defender of Christianity ever.] There is no point here that relates to my refute of Smith's accounts contradicting. You are still off with the fairies. Joseph hasn't become Fred, and I haven't become Chris (or any other names) - have you had a name change? More importantly; Paul defended the true church, and if he were here today, he would defend the Church of jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He believed in the Lord appearing to chosen people; and Christians have all dropped that from their beliefs. He believed in holding God's authority, and Christians have eliminated that one. He believed it when Jesus said a house divided is of the devil, and Christians have divided 45,000 ways. There is hardly anything about Christianity that Paul would agree with, now - times have changed. He would look for a temple among Christianity and not find one, but most of all; he would tell people they were crazy to believe in the trinity.
[Hopefully you still believe in the Jesus and the bible .] I know my KJV pretty well - it is in the LDS canon. LDS are the only one's who have the real Jesus of the bible leading them today. Christians believe in a crazy schizo MPD freak show that is not the Jesus of the bible and is actually invented, so has no saving power. You can't even find 'trinity' in the bible, yet you all claim that if it's not in the bible we won't believe it. Hypocrites. Satan has every one of the Christian cults in his grasp. They keep the gullible away from the Lord and their exaltation. Paul wasn't wrong then, but would be now if he defended Christianity. BTW, Paul gave a couple of accounts of that event on the road, and each is very contradictory. You should study them. You Christians are hypocrites for rejecting Joseph Smith on any basis of apparent contradiction. Brainless fools, as well, as evidenced by your nonsense that most Christians dish up. They have been doing this for the last 200 years.
@@taxtrustsestates You wrote as if you were a Christian, so I responded as if you were, then I see another post and you are LDS. You can ignore my thinking you were in a cult, but learn that you have poorly addressed the issue. Not evey LDS is an intellect (doesn't have to be, either), and you are certainly not displaying any. I call a spade a spade. You said I stacked up my arguments against Jesus, but then I see that you may have been addressing MD Inc. or RFM, even though it is posted to me. My apologies for that, if I was not your target. I do make mistakes, myself. Correspondence should never be this sloppy.
@@gunnerlawts lmbo ! Jesus and Paul preached the 2nd temple Biblical Judaism/ Christianity .
Joseph Smith was clueless of this theology and the personages are impersonations of God and Jesus.
This 2nd temple Biblical Judaism is well known and the trinity comes from this theology of the Godhead.
It doesn't matter what Joseph said or thinks he restored because it ain't 2nd temple Biblical Judaism/ Christianity .
That theology is in the book: Two Powers of Heaven by Segal and in Dr.Michael S.Heiser videos on TH-cam.
The trinity which you don't believe in comes from this theology and was rejected by Ribbinical Judaism in the 2nd century AD. You're whole church is based on lies.
@@davidjanbaz7728 The 2nd temple is what's based on lies.
this video has sealed my decision to be baptized. The hatred and opinions have now made me see that the church is true. thank you sir
Much love
No hatred. It was a straight forward expose of a historical issue that evidenced the deception and cover up of a very problematic document for the church. I left 5 years ago due to what I know to be a number of lies regarding many other issues. But you are free to live a lie as long as you like. Good luck.
Deebishop7346, once I saw a video that proved an accountant was swindling his clients from their money. I am now his number one client...................................................
And perhaps these videos will help you to continue believing in the Book of Abraham??
Mormon Stories #1339: Dr. Robert Ritner - An Expert Egyptologist Translates the Book of Abraham Pt 1
m.th-cam.com/video/ORNYUyHg3pY/w-d-xo.html
Mormon Stories #1340: Dr. Robert Ritner - An Expert Egyptologist Translates the Book of Abraham Pt 2
th-cam.com/video/df4flxToFvM/w-d-xo.html
Mormon Stories #1341: Dr. Robert Ritner - An Expert Egyptologist's View of the Book of Abraham Pt. 3
m.th-cam.com/video/H70IdpLHhZE/w-d-xo.html
@Jay in Japan I had to switch my response from your question on Zelph because those cretins blocked me 3 years ago. Now think about how nice they are? I had them beat, and their only gutless recourse was to block me. Jesus forgives small matters like not being nice, but their working for old Nick is probably unforgivable. What do the Christians say about it?
Joe Smith couldn’t lie straight in bed….how does anyone believe in this stuff….🤯
Because the Holy Ghost bears witness of its truthfulness.
I hope that's not your real name?
@@zon3665 Sorry Facts trump Feelings any day…feelings are manufactured from thoughts in people’s own heads…🤔
@@gunnerlawts I’m justa. ...🧁
@@pattykake7195 Beefcake? PS facts can be manufactured, too. Be careful.
Lord. One person who does that REALLY sound like?? Yup S?? L?? D???
No, no, no - the internet is not destroying the church. Good grief. History is not destroying the church either. Ignorance is destroying the less committed in the church. That is all. It is ignorance along with misdirection - like this channel. I gain much from each account of the illuminating FIrst Vision. I embrace them. I am grateful for them.
There's a good case for saying the internet is destroying society.
@@gunnerlawts That is so true. People get lazy when the internet drops everything into their lap and they don't look under the hood.
@@martinandersen9810 the church is destroying itself.
@@davidjanbaz7728 no again. The church is moving forward beautifully. If your faith is lagging then strengthen it. Each person has a personal responsibility to that in their own life. You can do that by rereading The Book of Mormon, by living the Gospel more fully, by paying an honest tithing, etc. Complaining about it and constantly criticizing the leaders just weakens you personally. Go back to basics. Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son. They did in reality speak to him. They restored the keys of the priesthood and established the pattern of Apostolic succession. The Plan of Salvation is real. I hope you can find your place in the Gospel of Jesus Christ again. .
@Randy G You are so right. Everyone has to make up their own mind about religion. They are not going to see eye to eye at all times. Which is why it is important to know that others have different viewpoints. Some, like myself, actually believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Kingdom of God on earth. Others believe it has incredible doctrines but does not include enough people and lifestyles, as if they are in control instead of God. Personally, I too just want people to know there are other legitimate viewpoints, from the ones expressed in the video.
If people want to feel betrayed by something so silly then let them. Every body tells parts of any story to make certain points depending on the context they are asked. If I had a meeting with my boss and related how my boss and I talked something over together that was obviously only from one perspective. If we were not alone in the room while we talked there would be no reason to mention the 3rd person present unless that 3rd person added to that particular point. To say I was lying about talking to my boss because I left out the 3rd person is rediculous. That's what anti Mormons do. If this were another religion nobody would be nit picking such things. Joseph Smith is in the Bible that's all anybidy needs to see to solve this whole matter. Click TH-cam title " Book of Abraham part 9" By my name above.
Talking something over with your boss is a lot different than seeing the God of the Universe and his Son. Where exactly is Joseph Smith in the Bible? Are you still imposing your cartoon characters and mathematical formulas and computer codes onto the Mormon church's scriptures?
@@deskjockie4948 Check it out the timeline numbers and codes come from the word of God not me. Check Daniel and Revelation. If they don't add up then I will pay attention to your efforts to down play that which obviously adds up exactly in the context God prescribed it. Debunk or shut up.
Where is Joey in the Bible ?
Joseph of Egypt or Mary's husband?
@@davidjanbaz7728 Here is several places you can see Joseph Smith in the Bible. Grab your Bible and click TH-cam titled "Book of Abraham part 7" and " Book of Abraham part 9", Then come back here and tell me why Joseph Smith is not in the Bible. Be side he is! I guarantee you will not be able to prove it wrong.
@@paulgregersen3570 No, it is YOUR interpretation of those so-called mathematical formulas, not anything from God.
No organization is fully transparent--no not one--not even the "true church". I'm sure there are all kinds of things we don't know. Nevertheless, I believe that Jesus lived and died for us. His gospel was restored and the Book of Mormon is true. Only when the savior comes again will his organization will be perfect and will be run by him perfectly--until then we do the best we can and imperfect as we all are.
What if it isn't true and you have just been conditioned to think it is? How do you resolve the the massive amount of evidence against it being true?
docs.google.com/document/d/1yzkCZkhjp_WmU9n6xWjqO0-ivX-ppQ0HrRjy4ItZz-U/edit mormondiscussions.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/MormonPrimer7.pdf? cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf
@@MormonDiscussion You are not the one who gets to decide whether it is true. I have read the CES letter many times. It is poorly written and not compelling to me or most that I know. You have lost the spirit and the ability to understand the things of God which Paul says are spiritually discerned. I choose to believe in Christ and his divinity. I feel his presence in my life especially when I read the scriptures. The day will come when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Bill, your knee bowed the Master at one time in your life--and will again in the coming day.
@@taxtrustsestates Every knee will bow and confess Jesus as Lord .
Lord here means God not a second class god as you believe and you refuse to worship Jesus as Lord.
You're counterfeit church is fantasy just as the evidence testifies .
Many are waking up to this fact.
@@richardholmes7199 lmbo ! Troll bot.
@@davidjanbaz7728 We will see when he comes and judges all of us--you included. "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
I'm not a Mormon but I know a lot of LDS people and always found them to be moral, honorable people.
If you don't like the LDS church don't attend, don't give tithes and move on with your life. Why must you endlessly post videos of how untrue the church is?
It takes about 45 minutes to figure out Smith was a con man and a sex offender. One 45 minute video would expose Smith for being the jackal he was.
This channel seems to be obsessed with picking apart everything LDS. I think most Mormons know the church is bullshit but just go out of tradition and community, and good for them. Atheism is a religion too, and it's empty as hell.
It takes as long as 45 minutes to figure that out??
@@Themanyfacesofego Being generous.
If you had been raised in the church and devoted thousands of hours and even more money to an organization that has hidden the truth of its foundations, you may feel differently. I spent two years of my life in full-time service to this church, for which I paid with my own money that I saved from the time I was a child. During this time I delayed my education, to my detriment. I did all of this for a lie. I cannot change these things, but I will never stop telling people that the church is a fraud.
@@ajackson5955I sympathize with you. Even as a nevermo, I can understand why people make long uploads about the church. There are several reasons.:
It's therapeutic, it makes sense of people's experiences.
Mormonism is a genuinely interesting religion. The way it was created etc, and the weird doctrines.
Deception is interesting! Look at the popularity of crime programmes. Mormonism is full of deception and cover- ups. Looking at the evidence, for example against the Book of Mormon is fascinating. There are tonnes of books about Mormonism, so it should not be surprising that there are tonnes of uploads.
Cults are interesting. They tell us a lot about psychology and manipulation.
Congratulations on your journey out.
@@ajackson5955 I'm Catholic, we were VERY aware of our church's history, good and bad. In your upbringing didn't anyone know about Joseph and his antics. I was raised in the Midwest and we had a chapter in our history class about the Mormons. We were told Joseph Smith was thrown off a building and trampled to death. I asked the first Mormon I ever met about polygamy and if they still practiced it (dumb I know). He looked at me like I was crazy.
I found Mormons to be wonderful and faithful people. A 1/3 of our class at Fort Huachuca was Mormon. They were VERY dedicated people.
I guess that's what always shocks me about Mormonstories, a lot of people that come on are very sophisticated and educated. No one ever thought to read the "anti" stuff? Even if it was prohibited I'd still read it, I'm a curious kind a guy. Maybe someone can help.
I LOVE this channel from a sociological perspective.
Call yourself 'Mormon Discussions'? Well, let's see if you discuss or block? This hidden clown you picked up on is a modern day Korihor - a silvertongue with deception in his motives. I am going to refute him with just a little bit of logic, and I reserve the right to offer it for a balanced discussion. Any person who pretends to be broadcasting behind enemy lines has to be a clown, and it is ironic that you put up a video about honesty and openness by showing a corporal in a bunker. You have already shot yourself in the foot (no pun intended). Tell me straight? Is Radio Free Mormon a Corporal in a bunker behind enemy lines? lol True - or not true?
Ad hominem attack much?
@@deskjockie4948 Ad hominem is when you call an intelligent man stupid. If you call a stupid man an idiot, it's just letting others know.
@@gunnerlawts How do you define your stupid/idiot label you ascribe to RFM?
Do you understand that Joseph Smith believed in the Trinity doctrine and then changed his mind? 'The variation of the 'first vision' accounts and the timelines, particularly the 1832 and 1837 versions to compare, that are also compatible with the 1830 first edition of the Book of Mormon compared to the 1837 edition where Joseph shifts his belief that there are 3 separate personages within the Godhead. The Book of Mormon has been drastically changed/edited since the first edition.
How can a prophet of God not know who God is? Is he 3 in 1 or 1 in 3? Moving on, it's NOT just Joseph Smith. The same goes for Brigham Young as well. He taught that Adam in the Garden of Eden was God the Father Elohim. Young taught it for 25 years as a salvation issue. Again, how can one be a prophet of God if he doesn't know who God is?